Charlemagne-msg - 8/14/10
Comments and referances to Charlemagne (Charles the Great).
NOTE: See also the files: Charlemagne-art, Charlemagne-lnks, Inven-Charle-man, Charlemag-MPS-art, gardening-bib, p-agriculture-bib, Gaul-art, scrpt-develop-art.
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Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 22:06:44 +0200
From: Thomas Gloning <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Subject: SC - Charlemagne
The story about Charlemagne and his doctors, Adamantius mentioned, is in
chapter 22 of Einhard's 'Vita Karoli Magni' (Live of Charlemagne). --
Later, in chapter 24, Einhard describes his eating and drinking habits,
e.g.: "Caena cotidiana quaternis tantum ferculis praebebatur, praeter
assam, quam venatores veribus inferre solebant, qua ille libentius quam
ullo alio cibo vescebatur" (his daily meals consisted of four courses
(?), he liked meat, that his hunters roasted, most). While eating, he
heard music or heard somebody read something (e.g. Saint Augustine). He
did not drink much wine during the meals: rarely did he drink more than
three cups... -- I am sure there are English translations of this text
out there. -- Einhard was a contemporary and a friend of Charlemagne.
<< 'Then, of course, I'm pretty sure we have access to which herbs were
grown in Charlemagne's gardens. ...'
Yes, I keep coming across references to this list of things he wanted
grown on his estates, but I can't find the whole list. I am hoping
someone here can point me in the right direction. >>
The list is the Capitulare de villis. There are several editions and
books about this text:
- -- Capitularia regum Francorum. Denuo edidit A. Boretius. Tomus primus.
Hannover 1883. Nachdruck Hannover 1960 (MGH). [A standard edition; the
one I use]
- -- Capitulare de villis. Codex guelf. 254 Helmst. der Herzog August
Bibliothek Wolfenb¸ttel. Band 1: Kommentar. Band 2: Faksimile. Hg. von
C.R. Br¸hl. Stuttgart 1971. [Facsimile of the manuscript with a
commentary; the one I would like to have too]
- -- Fois Ennas, B.: Il Capitulare de villis. Mailand 1981. [not seen]
- -- Metz, G.: Das karolingische Reichsgut. Berlin 1960. [not seen]
Thomas
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 01:45:37 +0200
From: Thomas Gloning <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Subject: SC - Charlemagne
Forgot something. A Latin text of Einhard is at:
http://www.gmu.edu/departments/fld/CLASSICS/ein.html
(The episode with the medical doctors in ch. 22, the passages on eating
and drinking in ch. 24.)
Thomas
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 14:04:50 EDT
From: allilyn at juno.com
Subject: Re: SC - Charlemagne - long quotes
From Einhard: #24. "He was moderate in his eating and drinking , and
especially so in drinking; for he hated to see drunkenness in any man,
and even more so in himself and his friends. all the same, he could not
go long without food, and he often used to complain that fasting made him
feel ill. He rarely gave banquets and these only on high feast days, but
then he would invite a great number of guests. His main meal of the day
was served in four courses, in addition to the roast meat which his
hunters used to bring in on spits and which he enjoyed more than any
other food....snip...
He was so sparing in his use of wine and every other beverage that he
rarely drank more than three times in the course of his dinner. In
summer, after his midday meal, he would eat some fruit and take another
drink;...nap...
EINHARD AND NOTKER THE STAMMERER, TWO LIVES OF CHARLEMAGNE. Translator,
Lewis Thorpe, Editor: Betty Radice, Penguin Classics, 1969.
There are other references to generous hosting, which implied food in
that time, and for his grand-son, to giving up 'dainty foods' during time
of fasting
Notker, #15. "Once, when making the same journey, Charlemagne visited
without previous warning a certain bishop whose palace was on his direct
route. It was the sixth day of the week, and on that day he was not
prepared to eat the flesh of animals or birds. By the nature of the
place the bishop was unable to provide fish except by previous
arrangement. He ordered an excellent cheese, white with cream, to be
served to the Emperor. Charlemagne, who was always moderate in his
demands and ready for anything, no matter what the occasion, ...snip...
He picked up his knife, threw away the skin, which, so he said, was not
edible, and began to eat the white cheese. Then the bishop, who stood
beside the Emporer to wait upon his wishes, took a step forward and
asked: 'Why do you do that, my Lord Emperor? You are throwing away the
best part...." snip.....put a piece of the skin in his mouth, chewed
slowly and swallowed it as if it were butter."
Emperor tries it, agrees [Brie, anyone?] orders 2 cart-loads for every
year, as good as this cheese. Bishop doesn't know how to choose the
best, C. says cut in half and check, rejoin with skewer, "collect them in
your cellar..." [After 3 years, the bishop gets a rich estate for the
church "from which the bishop and his successors could draw as much corn
[grain] and wine as they...need..."
Notker, talking about a greedy bishop, describes a bit of banquet:
""Every imaginable variety of drink, mixed with all kinds of flavoring
and coloring-matter, garlanded with herbs and flowers, which set off the
gleam of the jewels ...snip... At the same time pastry-cooks, roasters of
meat, bakers of fine bread and stuffers of chickens were striving to
stimulate their appetite with the viands which they had prepared with
such artistry;..."
So, you may not use much in the way of spice, except mustard, but there
are herbs--know I have a list somewhere--find it tomorrow, maybe--and
there were stuffed chickens, fine cheese, butter, pastries, breads, game
and other meats, birds, etc. Decorated as nicely as you like--these were
very civilized people.
Allison, allilyn at juno.com
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 02:13:46 EDT
From: allilyn at juno.com
Subject: Re: SC - Charlemagne + St. Gall
Charlemagne's list in in his _Capitulaire_, which I don't have, but I do
have the plant list from St. Gall, which he loved, and to which he gave
money and items. There should be some simularity.
Veg. garden plants: onions, shallots, garlic, leek, celery, parsley,
coriander, chervil, dill, lettuce, poppy, savory, radishes, parsnip,
carrots, colewort, beet, black cumin. [colewort is a sort of cabbage].
Orchard: apple, pear, mulberry, peach. plum, service & medlar, laurel,
chestnut, fig, quince, hazelnut, almond, walnut.
Physicc garden plants: 'Kidney' bean, savvory, rose, horsemint, cumin,
lovage, fennel, tansy, lily, sage rue, flag iris, pennyroyal, fenugreek,
mint, rosemary.
Note that some plants from the physic garden also are used as food.
Allison, allilyn at juno.com
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 03:30:52 +0200
From: Thomas Gloning <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Subject: SC - Capitulare de villis (Charlemagne)
It seems to me that Ulrich Harsch (Augsburg) has a complete latin text
of the capitulare de villis online. Chapter #70 is about plants and
trees:
http://www.fh-augsburg.de/~harsch/Chronologia/Lspost08/CarolusMagnus/kar_vill.html
Thomas
Subject: BG - August 15th, in 778
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 12:57:00 -0500
From: gemartt at mail.utexas.edu
To: bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org
A biography about Charlemagne was written in the 9th century by Eginhard.
In this account, he writes about an ambush of Charlemagne's army that
happened on the August 15th, in the year of 778:
" . . as the army was proceeding, stretched out in a long thin column
because of the narrowness of that defile, the Basques lay in ambush on top
of a mountain - the place is thickly covered with woods and therefore well
suited for such covert attacks; and they rushed down upon the end of the
baggage train and upon those troops in the rear-guard who were protecting
the main army ahead, forced them down to the bottom of the valley, engaged
them in battle and killed them to the last man; then they looted the
baggage, and protected by the gathering night they scattered in every
direction with all the speed they had. In what took place the Basques were
favored by the lightness of their arms and the terrain in which they
fought; and the Franks were put thoroughly at a disadvantage by the great
weight of their arms and the unevenness of the ground. In this battle were
killed Eggihardus, seneschal of the royal table; Ansehlmus, count of the
palace; and Hruoldlandus, prefect of the marches of Brittany, among many
others."
The death of "Hruoldlandus" would later become the basis for a great poem
written about 300 years later, known as "The Song of Roland".
Thomas
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 20:48:37 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Charlemagne and the doctors
Here's a little quote from Einhard.
Bear
"His health was good until four years before he died, when he suffered from
constant fevers. Toward the very end he also became lame in one foot. Even
then he trusted his own judgment rather than the advice of his physicians,
whom he almost loathed, since they urged him to stop eating roast meat,
which he liked, and to start eating boiled meat."
Einhard, The Life of Charlemagne, chapter 22.
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 09:16:09 -0600 (CST)
From: "Pixel, Goddess and Queen" <pixel at hundred-acre-wood.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Charlemagne and the doctors
"His health was good until four years before he died, when he suffered
from constant fevers. Toward the very end he also became lame in one foot.
Even then he trusted his own judgment rather than the advice of his
physicians, whom he almost loathed, since they urged him to stop eating
roast meat, which he liked, and to start eating boiled meat."
Einhard, The Life of Charlemagne, chapter 22.
Yes- that's the quote that got me started on the whole thing of
wondering why his doctors insisted on boiled meats. (As it turns out, no
one tells the emperor what to do!) Have a brand-new copy of Anthimus
that I'm starting in on. Might get some illumination there. :-)
'Lainie>>>>
to which otsisto wrote:
<<< Though I don't know if the physicians would have know exactly but could it
have been the carcinogens that roasted tends to have. Perhaps they had
associated the condition to the roasted meat. >>>
On Mon, 8 Mar 2010, Antonia Calvo wrote:
<<< that sounds *wildly* unlikely. We know that roasted meats were considered
"hotter" than boiled meats, and fevers are a disorder of excessive heat, so
recommending boiled meats over roasted would have been a no-brainer for an
early medieval physician. >>>
What Antonia said. The proper way to cook beef to "correct" its nature is
by boiling and serving with the proper sorts of sauces. The ancient
physicians (of which Anthimus is considered one, as he was using sources
like Galen) had no clue about carcinogens.
Also, Anthimus barely touches on humoral theory (I just read Anthimus a
couple of weeks ago) so there isn't much useful about Charlemagne in his
letter directly. There's some useful stuff in the intro, though. The
sources you want for Charlemagne are Galen, Aristotle, Celsus,
Hippocrates, Pythagoras, etc.
Margaret FitzWilliam
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 21:12:46 +0000 (GMT)
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Charlemagne and the doctors
--- Laura C. Minnick <lcm at jeffnet.org> schrieb am So, 7.3.2010:
Terry Decker wrote:
<<< Here's a little quote from Einhard.
Bear
"His health was good until four years before he died,
when he suffered from constant fevers. Toward the very
end he also became lame in one foot. Even then he
trusted his own judgment rather than the advice of his
physicians, whom he almost loathed, since they urged him to
stop eating roast meat, which he liked, and to start eating
boiled meat."
Einhard, The Life of Charlemagne, chapter 22. >>>
Yes- that's the quote that got me started on the whole
thing of wondering why his doctors insisted on boiled meats.
(As it turns out, no one tells the emperor what to do!) Have
a brand-new copy of Anthimus that I'm starting in on. Might
get some illumination there. :-)
-------------
According to Hans-Dieter Stoff?ler in his commenterd edition of Walahfrid Strabo's Hortulusa, the most widespread medical text of the Carolingian era was Quintus Serenus' 'liber medicinalis'. Serenus' main source was Pliny, of all people. I've also found Anthimus and a collection of 'Ariostotelian' adages that clearly do refer to humoral theory, though they don't really lay it out.
I haven't been able to traclk down a copy yet, but according to Stoffler, Serenus original text is in Aemilius Baehrens' collection Poetae Latini minores (Vol III, pp. 103 ff, Leipzig 1879)
Giano
Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 07:45:21 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] what the Franks were eating
It is an inventory of Charlemagne's property kept on the estate, not the
personal property of the staff, so there may have been other towels not
listed. Since the towel is listed with coverings for one bed and one
tablecloth, it suggests to me that these are the linens to be used for
guests who were travelling light and fast, rather than households that would
be supported by a baggage train.
Bear
<<< No, really. I went through the stuff in this inventory:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/800Asnapium.html which is keen also
for the other stuff in it- and not- only one towel? For the whole estate?
Liutgard ;-) >>>
Date: Sun, 02 May 2010 07:32:43 -0700
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at jeffnet.org>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] what the Franks were eating
<<< It is an inventory of Charlemagne's property kept on the estate, not
the personal property of the staff, so there may have been other
towels not listed. Since the towel is listed with coverings for one
bed and one tablecloth, it suggests to me that these are the linens to
be used for guests who were travelling light and fast, rather than
households that would be supported by a baggage train.
Bear >>>
That's pretty much the conclusion I've come to. Charles dragged a lot of
people around with him, so he likely had that sort of stuff with him.
(It appears that he took the wife and kids pretty much wherever he went-
including campaigning- until fairly late in his life, when he settled
the family in the palace at Aachen. I would imagine that they had a lot
of towels in their baggage!)
Do you suppose they also brought more cooking equipment with them? I
noticed that there didn't seem to be much in the way of pots and pans
and cutlery. Lots of livestock though.
The food issue is only one of the things I'm working on- also deep into
a network of monasteries that supported Charles' educational projects,
contemporary theology, the location of one of his wives (if she existed-
a couple of recent scholars doubti, which is not consistent with the
primary records), etc etc etc. The Frankish 'rabbit hole' is a veritable
warren, and I've been doing a lot of 'oooh! Look at this!' and getting
distracted...
Liutgard
Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 13:32:21 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] what the Franks were eating
<< It is an inventory of Charlemagne's property kept on the estate, not
the personal property of the staff, so there may have been other towels
not listed. Since the towel is listed with coverings for one bed and one
tablecloth, it suggests to me that these are the linens to be used for
guests who were travelling light and fast, rather than households that
would be supported by a baggage train.
Bear >>
<<< That's pretty much the conclusion I've come to. Charles dragged a lot of
people around with him, so he likely had that sort of stuff with him. (It
appears that he took the wife and kids pretty much wherever he went-
including campaigning- until fairly late in his lafe, when he settled the
family in the palace at Aachen. I would imagine that they had a lot of
towels in their baggage!)
Do you suppose they also brought more cooking equipment with them? I
noticed that there didn't seem to be much in the way of pots and pans and
cutlery. Lots of livestock though.
The food issue is only one of the things I'm working on- also deep into a
network of monasteries that supported Charles' educational projects,
contemporary theology, the location of one of his wives (if she existed- a
couple of recent scholars doubti, which is not consistent with the primary
records), etc etc etc. The Frankish 'rabbit hole' is a veritable warren,
and I've been doing a lot of 'oooh! Look at this!' and getting
distracted...
Liutgard >>>
Asnapium was apparently a small villa with limited resources, so it was
likely a farm providing provender to larger estates or even the Palace. It
probably didn't have the capacity to handle Charlemagne's full household.
The limited cookware may be an indication of this. IIRC, the Capitulare de
Vilis calls for a greater number of estate equipment than the inventory of
Asnapium indicates.
I don't know about Charlemagne's period, but 12th and 13th Century England
appears to have used a similar rotating manorial system with the various
manors being stocked with communal goods and cookware and finer, individual
linens, dinnerware and the like traveling in the baggage train. Bakers (and
possibly some cooks) went ahead of the household to prepare staples in
advance of the household's arrival.
Lots of side-tracks. Charlemagne's France was an amazingly complex place
and very fascinating. I tend to accept Einhard and the original texts in
Monumentia Germanie Historica as the baseline. Recent scholarship may be
street cred for academics rather than a serious question.
Bear
Date: Sun, 02 May 2010 16:47:35 -0400
From: Sam Wallace <guillaumedep at gmail.com>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] what the Franks were eating
Liutgard,
"Then there's this:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitulare_de_villis_vel_curtis_imperii The
Capitulare was basically the instructions that Charlemagne sent out on
how he wanted his various estates run, including what was to be grown in
the gardens, fields, orchards, etc. This page is in German, but if you
scroll down, you'll find the Latin names for these plants. Occasionally
there's two listed, apparently because for the one original word, there
are two possibilities as to what the plant is. There's a very wide
variety of fruit and vegetables, some medicial herbs, and some nuts. A
_very_ interesting list."
Here is the Capitulare de villis in Latin, if it is of interest:
http://diglib.hab.de/mss/254-helmst/start.htm
This is a parallel transcription and translation:
http://www.le.ac.uk/hi/polyptyques/capitulare/latin2english.html
In general, the whole site is wonderful, having other Carolingian
Polyptyques, just as nicely laid out.
http://www.le.ac.uk/hi/polyptyques/index.html
And this is another transcription of the original, though formatting was
not kept. It does have a very interesting illustration, though.
http://www.hs-augsburg.de/~harsch/Chronologia/Lspost08/CarolusMagnus/kar_vill.html
Guillaume
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