candlesticks-msg - 9/25/01
Medieval candlesticks. Candlesticks for modern re-creation.
NOTE: See also the files: candles-msg, lamps-msg, lighting-msg, bees-msg, metalworking-msg, metals-msg, p-kitchens-msg, p-tableware-msg, feastgear-msg.
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Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: vidumavi at swipnet.se (Ninni M Pettersson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Candlesticks?
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:57:44 +0100
Greetings good gentles!
The recent thread about candles made me start thinking about
candlesticks. In what did they stick these candles they made?
Having looked through my (admittedly far from extensive) library I've
been surprised by the scarcity of candlesticks!
So far I've found 1 example from the 12th century - two rather large
ones, on an altar, perhaps made of clay. And 2 examples from the 13th
century - two thin ones with three feet, on an altar, apparently made
from some kind of metal, and two very large ones, carried in a religious
procession, of unknown material.
I've found no examples at all from the 14th century.
In the 15th century candlesticks seems to have spread beyond the church
and reached the ordinary home. So far I've found 2 examples of
candlesticks, all made from some yellow metal and all used when reading
(Annunciation-scenes both of them). I've also found 3 examples of
bracket candlesticks (but two of them are by the same artist (Campin)
and look very much alike) all of them mounted above a fire-place. Lastly
I've found a chandelier (the one on Van Eyck's Arnolfini-picture).
I'm wondering if this dearth of candlesticks is just an illusion due to
my small library, or a mirror of reality. Were candlesticks limited to
the church before the 15th century? Were candlesticks only used for
reading and for general illumination and never placed on a table at a
feast?
Can anyone answer these vexing questions, or at least direct me to a
good source to look for answers in?
Gratefully yours,
Adeliz
Holmrike, Nordmark, Drachenwald
--
Ninni M Pettersson
vidumavi at swipnet.se
From: shermand at mindspring.com (Dennis R. Sherman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Candlesticks?
Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 00:22:54 GMT
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
vidumavi at swipnet.se (Ninni M Pettersson) wrote:
>The recent thread about candles made me start thinking about
>candlesticks. In what did they stick these candles they made?
>[...]
>I'm wondering if this dearth of candlesticks is just an illusion due to
>my small library, or a mirror of reality. Were candlesticks limited to
>the church before the 15th century? Were candlesticks only used for
>reading and for general illumination and never placed on a table at a
>feast?
>Can anyone answer these vexing questions, or at least direct me to a
>good source to look for answers in?
Its a figment of the scarcity of the data available to you. There
were lots of candlesticks in private homes, of many different forms,
and many different materials during the period of interest to the SCA.
I haven't got time to dig out all my research notes at the moment, but
I direct you toward the Compleat Anachronist issue about domestic
lighting, which covers lamps, lanterns, candles, candlesticks, and the
like. Someday maybe I'll find time to get it (and additional
research) up on the web, but until then getting it from the stock
clerk is your best bet. There's a large bibliography, so you can
continue researching as interests you.
Robyyan Torr d'Elandris Dennis R. Sherman
Kapellenberg, Windmaster's Hill, Atlantia Chapel Hill, NC
robyyan at mindspring.com dennis.sherman at mindspring.com
http://www.unc.edu/~sherman/robyyan.html http://www.unc.edu/~sherman/
From: Elaine Ragland <er37 at columbia.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Candlesticks?
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 18:00:10 -0500
Organization: Columbia University
On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Ninni M Pettersson wrote:
> The recent thread about candles made me start thinking about
> candlesticks. In what did they stick these candles they made?
>
> Having looked through my (admittedly far from extensive) library I've
> been surprised by the scarcity of candlesticks!
There's a folding set of candle holders shown in _The Secular Spirit_, a
catalogue of an exhibit at the Metropolitan Museum. I think that they're
12th century. Essentially, they're iron spikes, attached to a two metal
legs. The metal legs are attached to two more metal legs, by means of a
hinge. Open, the candle holder stands on three legs (one leg is actually
two legs hinged together). I can't draw a picture of it, but I recommend
getting the catalogue via interlibrary loan.
I think this is a case of common objects getting used to death. Unless
they're made of gold (ie. the ones in churches), they're not stored in
treasuries, and they're used until they break.
Elaine Ragland
aka Melanie de la Tour
From: powers at colon.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Candlesticks?
Date: 3 Feb 1997 21:08:37 -0500
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science
> Having looked through my (admittedly far from extensive) library I've
> been surprised by the scarcity of candlesticks!
May I commend to your attention:
"Iron and Brass Implements of the English House" by J. Seymour Lindsay
Theophilus mentions candlesticks several times in Divers Arts--including
how to make rock crystal knobs for them.
wilelm the smith
From: Tim Beck <timbeck at ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Candlesticks?
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 08:05:58 GMT
> Having looked through my (admittedly far from extensive) library I've
> been surprised by the scarcity of candlesticks!
The Museum of London catalogue of 1940 has about ten pictures of candle sticks. All sorts of cool ones. Also Jan van Eyck 1434 has that cool chandalier hanging in "The marriage of Giovanni Arnolfini and Jeanne Cenami". The documentation is there it's just one of those things that seems to get overlooked a lot...not a ton of appeal for the non-recreation crowd.
Timothy
From: Andrew Tye <atye at efn.org>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Candlesticks?
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:15:15 -0800
Organization: Oregon Public Networking
On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Ninni M Pettersson wrote:
> The recent thread about candles made me start thinking about
> candlesticks. In what did they stick these candles they made?
>
> Having looked through my (admittedly far from extensive) library I've
> been surprised by the scarcity of candlesticks!
>
> So far I've found 1 example from the 12th century - two rather large
> ones, on an altar, perhaps made of clay. And 2 examples from the 13th
> century - two thin ones with three feet, on an altar, apparently made
> from some kind of metal, and two very large ones, carried in a religious
> procession, of unknown material.
> I've found no examples at all from the 14th century.
>
> In the 15th century candlesticks seems to have spread beyond the church
> and reached the ordinary home. So far I've found 2 examples of
> candlesticks, all made from some yellow metal and all used when reading
> (Annunciation-scenes both of them). I've also found 3 examples of
> bracket candlesticks (but two of them are by the same artist (Campin)
> and look very much alike) all of them mounted above a fire-place. Lastly
> I've found a chandelier (the one on Van Eyck's Arnolfini-picture).
>
> I'm wondering if this dearth of candlesticks is just an illusion due to
> my small library, or a mirror of reality. Were candlesticks limited to
> the church before the 15th century? Were candlesticks only used for
> reading and for general illumination and never placed on a table at a
> feast?
> Can anyone answer these vexing questions, or at least direct me to a
> good source to look for answers in?
Ivar here,
A few years back when my winter project was researching and making period
lighting for tourney and feast, I stumbled on a resource area that had a
wealth of information on this exact topic. Here in the U.S. there are
many people who collect all manner of artifacts of our relatively recent
colonial past. Some of these collectors are very specialized.
One of these specialized fields is the collection of lamps, lanterns,
candlesticks, and all manner of impedimenta relating to lighting. I found
several publications in our local city library on just this topic. Most
have some form of history of lighting going back to the Ancient World.
(Egypt, Mesopotamia). In one particular publication however, I struck
gold. (well, brass actually).
The publication is a magazine format compilation of articles entitled:
Lighting In America.
Edited by Lawrence S. Cooke.
Published by The Main Street Press, Pittstown, New Jersey.
Within it are two articles by John Kirk Richardson. One is entitled:
Brass Candlesticks. (This is overvue history of the topic.) The other
is: Brass Household Candlesticks Of The Gothic Period. This article
covers the period 1200-1500. The seven pages of these two articles have
30 photographs of existing candlesticks (with references to the
collections that they are in.) Most of the candlesticks are pre-1400. It
is enough to add brass casting and turning to the skills I wish to learn.
I hope this helps.
Ivar Hakonarson.
Adiantum, An Tir.
From: afn03234 at freenet2.afn.org (Ronald L. Charlotte)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Candlesticks?
Date: 6 Feb 1997 06:36:51 GMT
In <19970202205744315537 at dialup69-6-13.swipnet.se>, vidumavi at swipnet.se (Ninni
M Pettersson) wrote:
> The recent thread about candles made me start thinking about
> candlesticks. In what did they stick these candles they made?
There seems to have been two common types, the "pricket" type where the
candle is impaled on a spike that emerged from a shallow pan, or a set
of arms to support the weight of the candle; and the "socket" type where
the candle sets into a cup.
The first style seems to be primarily for the larger pillar candles, the
second was for tapers. One of the more clever innovations in the socket
design, was openings on the sides of the socket, at the bottom, to make
removing the candle stub easier.
The best book having a large number of extant and remmnant examples of
medieval and renaissance candlesticks is _Medieval Objects in the Museum
of Fine Arts, Boston: Metalwork_ by Nancy Netzer (ISBN 0 87846 327 5).
al Thaalibi ---- An Crosaire, Trimaris
Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
afn03234 at afn.org
From: Andrew Tye <atye at efn.org>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Lamps, Holders etc.
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 10:32:59 -0800
Organization: Oregon Public Networking
On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Elspeth wrote:
> Does anybody out there have some 'preferred' or plain ol faithful,
> candle holders, or lamps they use for events? I know how popular
> Tikit Torches have become, but what kind of preferences do people have
> for table light sources? Any truely Period things one could use? I
> have yet to start looking at paintings to get a glimps of what was
> used.
Ivar here,
Aside from the good advice that Aleksandr gave you about museums and art
books, I would also recommend you to books and periodicals on Colonial
America and collecting its artifacts. A few years back when I was
researching period lighting I stumbled upon a rich vein of information on
just this topic. You see, people who collect antiques like to know the
history of their subject and how different styles developed. Also, books
on details concerning Colonial America are usually more accessable than
ones on those of Medieval Europe. Thusly, I have found well illustrated
articles on candlesticks, rushlights, grease lamps of all sorts, etc. In
particular, I would recommend a book titled:
"Lighting In America - From Colonial Rushlights to Victorian
Chandeliers" Edited by Lawrence S. Cook. Main Street Press,
Pittstown, New Jersey.
In it, I found a couple of articles written by John Kirk Richardson. One
was on the history of brass candlesticks. The other was titled: "Brass
household candlesticks of the Gothic period." This later article had over
a dozen photographs of candlesticks from 1200-1400. (Caveat: Just
because something is 18th C. or crude looking, or is "old" does not mean
that it is applicable for our period.)
To reproduce any of these would require the skills of brass casting and
turning. These are not skills common in the SCA. If you were to develop
them and start making good copies of period brassware, (candlesticks,
aquamanile, belt & sword furniture, etc.), you might find that you have
the field to yourself and a ready market.
I hope this is of some use,
Ivar Hakonarson
Adiantum, An Tir.
From: rhayes at powerup.com.au (Robin Hayes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Lamps, Holders etc.
Date: 4 Apr 1997 12:57:57 GMT
David M. Razler of david.razler at worldnet.att.net says...
<SNIP>
>illuminating devices, including the NY Met.,
<SNIP>
>My first Society metal project was a portable version of a 14-candle
>floor-standing candleholder I spotted one day at the Met.
>
>Paintings are a good, but secondary source, as an artist will generally make
>something look either "good" or, in earlier period, fit the accepted style, if
>the device is recorded at all.
Check out
The Art of Bronze Brass and Copper
Exquisite artefacts from ancient times to the 20th century
Jan Divis
Hamlyn (english translation
(c) 1991 Aventinum, Prague
ISBN 0 600 57268 4
Contains much info, including picture of period lighting sources, eg, Bronze oil lamp in the shape of a sailing boat symbolizing the Church. Italy 4th C Page 38 and many others, as well as shapes of many types of period candlesticks.
Robin
From: Ettrick at mako.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Looking for Candlabras
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 16:05:13 GMT
bosksca at aol.com (BoskSCA) wrote:
> I am looking to get some more iron, brass, pewter or really any type
> candle holders, candlabras and/or torch holders. Also looking for mountable
> lanterns. Anyone have any they are looking to sell or know of a good place to
> buy them?
>
> Bosk of the Teaghlach
We have a new web site where we are selling period candle lanterns and a
terrific candelabra. Take a look http://www.galaxymall.com/household/lanterns
It is not quite completed, but should be fully done this week. You are able
to order online by credit card on a secure connection, or email us for
information about other ways to order.
Magge of Ettrick
From: Beth and Tom Sparks-Jacques <peldyn at ccis.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Looking for Candlabras
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 09:25:18 -0800
I sell beautiful wrought iron candle holders and brass candle lanterns.
The small candleholder is 9 inches tall and holds a pillar candle: $5.00
The large is 11.5 inches tall:$7.00
Both have a three footed base with an open twisted spiral of metal.
My brass lanterns also come in two sizes.
Small is 7 inches tall, 8 inches around: $8.00
Large is 9 inches tall, 12 inches around:$13.00
Both have star shaped cutout on the top and the glass panes have stars
etched in the glass. There is a ring for hanging on the top. They both
hold a votive candle.
If you are interested in ordering you can e-mail me at
peldyn at ccis.com
I sell prepaid and COD
I will also be selling them at Estrella.
Beth Sparks-Jacques
AKA Peldyn verch Hywel
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 08:38:20 -0700
From: Tim Bray <tbray at mcn.org>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ku.edu
Subject: Re: "Period" candlesticks and chandeliers
>Could someone please describe for me what "period", especially late period,
>candlesticks and chandeliers were made of and what they looked like?
What period, and where?
Candlesticks are found in lots of museums; tell me what period you're
looking for and I'll see if I can give you a specific reference.
Chandeliers are more rarely met with, but there are some spectacular late
15th century examples. See the Arnolfini Betrothal for one. For a much
simpler version, in a mid-15th century tent, see:
www.greydragon.org/furniture/chandeliers.html
In a few days I will update our Web site with photos of my version of the
King Rene chandelier.
>of my own of any kind. Would Pier One Imports be a good place to find them?
>It's about the only store I could imagine having such candlesticks.
Doubtful, but possible. Depends on how authentic you want it to
look. Best to do some research first, get a good feel for what the
medieval prototypes look like, before shopping in modern stores.
>I haven't seen any of these items in museums.
???? Candlesticks are pretty common items in museums with collections of
medieval objets d'art. The Boston MFA, for example.
Colin
Albion Works
Furniture, Clothing, and Accesories
For the Medievalist!
www.albionworks.net
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 13:04:17 -0500
From: "Stephanie Howe" <showe01 at earthlink.net>
To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ku.edu>
Subject: Re: "Period" candlesticks and chandeliers
> >I would love to hear more about this oil lamp. For instance where
> > was it found? Is there any evidence that it was actually used in
> > England? Perhaps it was a gift and was only used decoratively?
>
> No the type I'm thinking of is very very common, more than candles use
> for my period, where picks tend to be very primative
I think Mel is referring to the candle holder when she mentions "picks"-
early holders for bees wax or tallow tapers were little more than a sharp
spike, point or "prick", sometimes with a stand or dish, that the candle
would be stuck on. Modern American usage refers to the whole stand as a
"candle stick". I'd bet that candle holders lost the spike and started using
a cup when petroleum-derived paraffin wax came into common use- much harder
and more brittle.
Olga
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 13:21:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Pixel, Queen of Cats" <pixel at hundred-acre-wood.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ku.edu
Subject: Re: "Period" candlesticks and chandeliers
Actually, cup-type candleholders are period to the 13th c., possibly
before (but the books are at home). The 'pricket' type, which is the
spike, were used for beeswax as it is firmer, while the cup types were
used for tallow, as it has a bothersome tendency to be very very soft.
The combination types, with a dish and a spike, could be used for
either. Also used were rushlights, but my experiments with them suggest
that they are every bit as nasty as Colonial US accounts say they were.
In the archeologial record are wheel-thrown pottery candleholders of the
small cup in a dish variety, with and without fingerloops.
And, while we're talking about lighting, in Romsey Abbey on display are
stone lamps meant for use with fat and a wick, or oil and a wick, dating
to at least the 12th century abbey church, if not the earlier (9th c I
*think*) Saxon church upon which the abbey church was built. One of them,
IIRC, is a cluster of three carved in one block.
Margaret FitzWilliam of Kent
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 13:54:23 -0400
From: Corwyn and Carowyn <silveroak at juno.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ku.edu
Subject: Re: "Period" candlesticks and chandeliers
>Could someone please describe for me what "period", especially late period,
>candlesticks and chandeliers were made of and what they looked like?
The two that come to mind are the two I've seen at two different museums.
The first was at The Cloisters in NYC, and that one was twisted pieces
of iron. (It actually looked like some candlesticks I made in metal
shop, actually....) The second was in the Philadelphia Museum of Art,
and that one was also twisted and wrapped bars of iron, but with small
dragons (also in iron) decorating the surface. Neat! I wish I had
gotten pics of it, since it looked like the dragons that Brock has made
on occasion.
-Caro
<the end>