horses-msg - 1/31/10
Medieval horses. Horses in the SCA. Horse barding.
NOTE: See also the files: hunting-msg, horse-racing-msg, chivalry-msg, Chivalry-art, knighthood-msg, carts-msg, Mongols-msg, saddles-msg, Horse-n-t-MA-art, horses-lnks.
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From: kathy at xn.ll.mit.edu (Kathryn Smith)
Date: 3 Oct 90 19:34:18 GMT
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory, Lexington, MA
As you may or may not know, the East Kingdom has an Equestrian
Guild. My roommate and I have volunteered to try to put together
some sort of equestrian display/event for the Stonemarche Solstice
event next summer. I'm hoping that perhaps there are others on the
Rialto who have either seen or been part of SCA-sponsored equestrian
events in the past, and offer us suggestions/warnings/advice, etc.
I promise not to be offended at any apparently too-obvious advice,
since both of us are still quite new to the SCA, and haven't seen a
lot of events use as examples for what is/isn't appropriate.
Of course, we'd be even happier to hear from any horse-owning SCA
people in NH or the surrounding states who'd like to be part of
whatever goes on too. (People from further away are welcome too,
of course, but I would be amazed to see anyone want to bring a horse
to an event further than a couple of hundred miles.)
We do have a few guidelines, based on considerations of safety and
available resources. JOUSTING BETWEEN TWO OR MORE FIGHTERS IS
OUT OF THE QUESTION. I'm sure there are insurance considerations
that would prevent it, and there is no existing system of qualifying
people for it, as there is with traditionaly SCA fighting. The
likelihood of participants getting hurt is just TOO high. Falling
off a horse hurts, even when you land on something soft, and there
is always the possibility, however small, of the horse kicking you
after you fall. (Not that they'd WANT to, but accidents happen).
And the whole point of jousting is to unseat at least one of the
participants. Besides that, we have at present only two riders, and
neither of us has any inclination to try this. Also only one of
our horses is even vaguely suitable, physically or temperamentally.
We are also NOT considering permitting anyone to be an active
participant in any of this who doesn't provide their own horse.
There are just too many liability issues involved, and besides
that, neither of our horses is particularly suitable for an
inexperienced rider.
We have been considering the possibility of trying to organize some
sort of ring jousting exhibition, or possibly a competition if we
get a few more riders firmly committed beforehand. For this we
would mount a largish (8-12" diameter) ring on a post, which the
rider would attempt to put his/her lance through. The ring would
be attached to the post by a fairly fragile thread, so that it would
break trivially if the rider successfully puts the lance through
it. This is a lot harder than it looks.
Our background is primarily in dressage, which had its beginnings
during the 11th and 12th centuries. Again, it would be nice if we
had more than 2 horses doing this. A solo-performance is only going
to be of real interest to the general audience only if it involves
maneuvers that are years beyond what either we or our horses are
capable of at the moment. It takes a long time to get a horse and
rider to the point of performing the maneuvers you associate with
things like the Spanish Riding School in Vienna. However, if we had
maybe half-a-dozen people doing a pattern of lower-level work
together, that might be of more general interest.
We're also open to any other suggestions for period equestrian
activities that come to mind. Suggestions for research sources
would also be most welcome.
Kathy
PS if you reply via e-mail, use the address from the signature.
I'm still debugging the news installation here, and the
header may not be reliable.
----------------------------------------------------------
Kathryn L. Smith System Administrator
MIT Lincoln Laboratories UUCP: ...ll-xn!kathy
Lexington, MA ARPANET: kathy at XN.LL.MIT.EDU
From: joltes at husc9.harvard.edu (Richard Joltes)
Date: 4 Oct 90 16:23:13 GMT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center Cambridge, MA
kathy at xn.ll.mit.edu (Kathryn Smith) writes:
[lines concerning the existance of the EK Equestrian guild deleted]
>We do have a few guidelines, based on considerations of safety and
>available resources. JOUSTING BETWEEN TWO OR MORE FIGHTERS IS
>OUT OF THE QUESTION. I'm sure there are insurance considerations
>that would prevent it, and there is no existing system of qualifying
>people for it, as there is with traditionaly SCA fighting. The
>likelihood of participants getting hurt is just TOO high. Falling
>off a horse hurts, even when you land on something soft, and there
>is always the possibility, however small, of the horse kicking you
>after you fall. (Not that they'd WANT to, but accidents happen).
>And the whole point of jousting is to unseat at least one of the
>participants. Besides that, we have at present only two riders, and
>neither of us has any inclination to try this. Also only one of
>our horses is even vaguely suitable, physically or temperamentally.
On several occasions a few of us have tried `jousting' by tucking a polearm
under one arm (like a lance would be held) and `galloping' together by jogging
at a medium pace. All blows were aimed for the body only. The impact was
sufficient to convince me that I had better things to do, especially since the
harness I wear isn't designed for the joust (8 oz. leather with internal lexan
brigandine just doesn't make it for lance contact :-} ). Jousting harness was
(especially later in period) of a very different calibre than foot or other
combat harness. Usually the helm was attached directly to the breastplate,
thus allowing no head movement, so that if a stray lance shot hit the helm the
recipient's neck would not be snapped. The gauge of the steel was heavier to
resist the impact, the shoulders were more heavily protected, and often the gap
between the left arm and chest was covered with a shield (sometimes attached
directly to the breastplate) that was curved to deflect lance blows. Unless
we're willing to start making stuff of this type NO ONE should try jousting.
Also there is the fact that the horses need to be trained especially for the
joust (if nothing else so that they can deal with having an 18-foot piece of
wood bobbing past their eyes). And the horse really needs to be protected so
that a glance or other accident would not endanger the animal. Thus the need
for barding, which adds even more cost to the activity.
I know there is a group (not affiliated with the SCA) that holds an annual
jousting event at King's Mountain, Virginia. I don't have any details, but
maybe some of the Atlantians on the net can provide some. The event is
(sadly) held at just about the same time as Pennsic.
> Kathy
Lord Alexander "Tam" Cullinan joltes at husc9.harvard.edu
Canton of the Towers, East Kingdom
Squire to Sir Emeric Wendel the Diversified
Ladies' Champion of Carolingia
Date: 5 Oct 90 14:53:28 GMT
Organization: Society for Creative Anachronism
Greetings to all Gentles on the Rialto from Eleanor de Wardon, of the
Shire of Isenfir in the Kingdom of Atlantia.
In regards to what kind of horse was used as a destrier (for jousting),
many historians believe that the closest modern breed is the Shire.
The Shire is the largest breed--some individuals weigh 2,000 pounds.
Shires are generally larger than Clydesdales--and if you have ever seen
one of the Budweiser Clydesdales "up close and personal", you know that
that is pretty big! One useful reference tool is a book called
"The Standard Book of Horses" which lists the description and history of
all horse breeds, including many that we in the U.S. tend to think of
not as breeds, but as types.
Eleanor de Wardon
(m.ka. Jean Cooper)
jlc5f at virginia.edu
From: CONS.ELF at AIDA.CSD.UU.SE ("]ke Eldberg")
Date: 6 Oct 90 05:47:21 GMT
Greetings from William de Corbie!
Kathryn Smith asked about equestrian things, and others have since
commented. There seems to be a consensus that jousting man-to-man is
out of the question.
Let me tell you about the equestrian groups here in Europe. There are many,
both hobbyists and professional show companies. They have tournaments, and
jousting, too. A tournament consists of competitions in several equestrian
arts:
1. The quintain (sp?): the knights ride with their lances against a flat
target that looks like a torso and is holding a morning star. When the
target is hit, it swings around and the knight risks getting hit by the
morning star if he isn't quick enough.
2. Turk heads: the knights ride along the list and attempt to spear "Turk
heads" which lie on the grounds. The "heads" are usually head-sized
pieces of foam or similar material.
3. Rings: six small rings are hung from "gallows" around the field. The
knights ride around and try to pick as many as possible on the lance.
4. Jousting: This is NOT the sort of jousting you see in movies. The lances
are not held braced under the arm, but in the hand and supported only
with the force of the arm, held a couple of inches out from the body.
The object is to get a clean hit on the opponent's shield. They never
aim for the body or the head. It is very rare that anyone is thrown from
the saddle.
The armour used is mostly fake knitted chainmail with some padding under,
and plastic helmets that look exactly like steel. Lances are ca. one inch
round wood with a sort of 3-inch plastic ball on the tip. Shields are
plywood. All in all, this is a simulated jousting that looks very good
without being very dangerous at all.
William de Corbie
From: dlc at hpfcda.HP.COM (Dennis Clark)
Date: 5 Oct 90 14:19:43 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO
/ kathy at xn.ll.mit.edu (Kathryn Smith) / writes:
>As you may or may not know, the East Kingdom has an Equestrian
>Guild. My roommate and I have volunteered to try to put together
>some sort of equestrian display/event for the Stonemarche Solstice
>event next summer. I'm hoping that perhaps there are others on the
>Rialto who have either seen or been part of SCA-sponsored equestrian
>events in the past, and offer us suggestions/warnings/advice, etc.
>I promise not to be offended at any apparently too-obvious advice,
>since both of us are still quite new to the SCA, and haven't seen a
>lot of events use as examples for what is/isn't appropriate.
Ring jousting is very difficult and fun to watch, I'm not sure as to the
periodness of it though. Another thought IS period (ask the Monguls), you
may want to try Tent-Pegging; this is the attempt to remove wooden tent stakes
set out at increasingly shorter intervals with a sword. As you can guess,
its rather difficult :^) Possibly a best barding or barding/rider contest?
Just some ideas...
Kevin MacKinnon - Outlands
Golf Carts vs Horses
15 Jun 92
From: 71220.3051 at compuserve.COM ("John F. Macpherson, Jr.")
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Internet
Good Gentles,
I have read with interest (and a small amount of amusement) the postings re:
Golf Carts at Pennsic and the suggestions of several gentles that Horse
Patrols may be a "better alternative." Granted, horse patrols would be
better for keeping the period atmosphere, but golf carts are infinitly
preferable. Compare the "care & feeding" requirements of a fleet of 10 carts
vs 10 horses.
----------
Carts:
Food: several gallons of gas each per day (or several hours of electricity
for battery charging).
Housing: tarps to cover "out of service" carts are sufficient.
Bedding: not needed.
By-products: none to speak of.
Maintenance: minimal - if any, easily handled by anyone with moderate
mechanical skills (if ya can fix a lawn mower, ya can probably fix
a cart!).
Skilled operators: not needed - almost *anybody* can drive a golf cart
safely.
----------
Horses:
Food: 5 - 10 pounds of grain per horse per day, plus a bale or so of good
hay per horse per day. For 10 horses this = 50 - 100 # grain + 10 bales
hay *DAILY*. (Hay requirement less IF good pasture available) Also,
at least 10 - 15 GALLONS of water per horse, per day (or access to a
water trough)
Housing: A stable, or at least a fenced area required. Not to mention an
enclosed, covered, *dry*, *rodent-proof* area for feed and equipment
storage, PLUS storage for all the grooming and mucking-out tools, etc.
Bedding: Straw or wood chips/shavings. needs cleaning 2x daily, total
replacement of bedding at least every other day (daily is better).
By-products: An average horse can produce more than 20 pounds of manure daily,
and several gallons of urine. The urine sort of disposes of itself by
soaking into the ground, but the manure must be removed from wherever it
lands. 10 horses at 20# daily x 7 days = 1,400 pounds of manure to be
removed from the site!
Maintenance: A vet and/or farrier (horse-shoer) should be available for
"emergency repairs." Also need "stable hands" for the mucking out,
feeding, watering, grooming, etc.
Skilled operators: *IMPERATIVE* Imagine, if you will, a spooked horse (with
an un-skilled rider), of approx. 1,000 pounds in weight, running out
of control thru an encampment.... not a pretty sight is it??
Not to mention the problem of locating enough well-trained horses and riders
to mount an effective patrol. How many of you out there have your own
horse(s), are willing to trailer or otherwise ship it to Pennsic *and* are
going to volunteer to ride patrol *every single day*?? If *you* were the
owner of a horse, would you allow someone else to ride it on patrol?? *I
wouldn't!*
Just as a side note, YES, I have a horse, and NO, I am *not* a good enough
rider (yet) to consider riding patrol at Pennsic.
As I said earlier, anyone can drive a golf cart, skilled horses and riders
are a bit harder to find.
Just my $0.02 worth. BTW, I had reason to be grateful for the carts at
Pennsic17 a few years ago... I had a mechanical problem with my artifical
leg, easily fixed by tools *in my tent on the other side of the site* but
the problem made it *impossible* to walk *any* distance. A security person
in a cart drove me to my encampment and assisted me to my tent, whereupon I
repaired my leg and was once again mobile.
P.S. If anyone would like to discuss the use of horses in the SCA and/or in
period, I'd be HAPPY to do so! <grin>
--------------------
Ian Mhic-a-Phersoin (Shire of Highland Foorde, Kingdom of Atlantia)
Owner of Comtesse, a 9 year old Percheron Mare, and Sol de Noir, a 2 week
old Spanish-Norman (Percheron/Andalusian cross) colt.
Internet: 71220.3051 at compuserve.com
Golf Carts vs Horses
15 Jun 92
From: ewright at convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
Ian Mhic-a-Phersoin (Shire of Highland Foorde, Kingdom of Atlantia) writes:
>Granted, horse patrols would be better for keeping the period atmosphere,
>but golf carts are infinitely preferable. Compare the "care & feeding"
>requirements of a fleet of 10 carts vs 10 horses.
As I said before, I don't believe a horse patrol would be practical,
however, I think your case is overstated. So, for the sake of argument...
>Maintenance: minimal - if any, easily handled by anyone with moderate
> mechanical skills (if ya can fix a lawn mower, ya can probably fix
> a cart!).
Leaving aside the fact that there are many people who can't fix a lawn
mower, how many people could fix a lawn mower or a golf cart with the
supplies they're likely to have on hand at Pennsic? You can't do
*everything* with duct tape. :-)
>Skilled operators: not needed - almost *anybody* can drive a golf cart
> safely.
I would agree if you hadn't added the word "safely." At TFYC there was
one particular individual who was widely considered to be a menace in a
golf cart. A well-behaved horse will not deliberately walk into people
or obstacles. A golf cart doesn't care.
>Horses:
>Food:
>Housing:
>Bedding:
>By-products:
Yes, all of these would be real problems. The logistics of providing
them is what I think makes the project un-doable. I don't agree that
water would be a problem, though. 10-15 gallons per day per animal
would be a drop in the bucket compared to what's already consumed at
Pennsic.
>Maintenance: A vet and/or farrier (horse-shoer) should be available for
> "emergency repairs."
The SCA probably has more blacksmiths per capita than any other group
and many of them probably know how to shoe a horse. As far as a vet is
concerned, how many stables have a vet on hand (as opposed to on call)?
You'd want to arrange for a vet to show up if you needed him, of course,
but locating a good large-animal practitioner should be no problem in
Pennsylvania farm country.
>Skilled operators: *IMPERATIVE* Imagine, if you will, a spooked horse (with
> an un-skilled rider), of approx. 1,000 pounds in weight, running out
> of control thru an encampment.... not a pretty sight is it??
See previous comment about golf-cart operators.
>Not to mention the problem of locating enough well-trained horses and riders
>to mount an effective patrol. How many of you out there have your own
>horse(s), are willing to trailer or otherwise ship it to Pennsic *and* are
>going to volunteer to ride patrol *every single day*?? If *you* were the
>owner of a horse, would you allow someone else to ride it on patrol?? *I
>wouldn't!*
Most or all of the horses would have to be rentals. I assume the same
is true of golf carts.
I don't believe that insurance and site regulations would be a show-stopper,
as other people stated. If the other problems could be solved, those things
could be negotiated.
-- Nicholas van Leyden
Golf Carts vs Horses
16 Jun 92 j
From: whheydt at pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
In article <ewright.708639052 at convex.convex.com> ewright at convex.com (Edward V. Wright) writes:
>The SCA probably has more blacksmiths per capita than any other group
>and many of them probably know how to shoe a horse.
If I owned a horse, I don't think I let any SCA smith near it (or it's
shoes). . .
Yes--we have a lot of smiths. Many of them are talented. Yes--shoeing
*is* part of the tradional skill of a blacksmith. *However*, how
often does your average SCA smith have an opportunity to learn to do
it? Even when horse transport was the norm in this country, 'farrier'
became a specialty.
--Hal
Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
Wilson H. Heydt, Jr., Albany, CA 94706, 510/524-8321 (home)
From: conklinc at beagle.colorado.EDU (CONKLIN)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: horses
Date: 1 Jul 1994 10:25:53 -0400
Dennis wrote:
>What the hell, bring a Shire. Nothing like draft horse for calm.
>And they are BIG, like the old warhorses of old.
Dennis, I'm ashamed of you. People DID NOT ride draft horses
(Clydesdales, Shires, Percherons, etc..) in period. One, most of the
large drafts breeds were deveveloped after period. A good example of a
period war horse in the black Fresian Goliath in Ladyhawk. Horses,
like people, have grown is stature over the last several hundred
years. While there were exceptions to the rule, just like there are
human beings who are 7 feet tall, generally horses did not get over
15.1 - 15.2. A really big horse was 15.3 - 16 hands.
Chendra Rudd ferch Arainwen
-the redhead-
From: doconnor at sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: horses
Date: 1 Jul 94 10:00:32
conklinc at beagle.colorado.EDU (CONKLIN) writes:
] Dennis wrote:
]
] >What the hell, bring a Shire. Nothing like draft horse for calm.
] >And they are BIG, like the old warhorses of old.
]
] Dennis, I'm ashamed of you. People DID NOT ride draft horses
] (Clydesdales, Shires, Percherons, etc..) in period.
No, but they rode horses nearly as large. You needed a
big hgorse, and a sturdy saddle, and good bracing, to
drive a lance through a shield and the man behind it.
] One, most of the large drafts breeds were deveveloped after period.
True. Shires and Clydesdales are both developments of the Industrial
revolution, bred to haul timber out of the woods so those infernal
machines could burn it or turn it into charcoal.
] A good example of a period war horse in the black Fresian Goliath
] in Ladyhawk.
Is that ? Why the feathering ? And I never could figure out why that
horse had an exagerated, inefficient "sewing machine" gate. All the
dressage enthusiats must have positively gotten sick. But it was
a very pretty horse !
] Horses, like people, have grown is stature over the last several hundred
] years. While there were exceptions to the rule, just like there are
] human beings who are 7 feet tall, generally horses did not get over
] 15.1 - 15.2. A really big horse was 15.3 - 16 hands.
Well, that's not strictly true. All modern draft horses are derived
from crossing "hot" blood into a line that started with the "Black
Horse of Flanders", a wild horse breed that I think is extinct now.
The Black Horse of Flanders was a truly massive horse. It lived in
the forests of Europe, and it's defense against predators was it's
shear size. lacking the big cats of Africa, no European predators
could take a healthy adult Black Horse. It was on average larger than
modern draft horses. However, it was also _verrrry_ _ssssllllow_, hard
to ride, and "dull". So people brought those fast, small desert horses
(Arabs, Barbs, Turks) from the Mid-East and crossed them with the Black
Horse. Them little horses had always relied on speed, acute senses, and
their wits for survival, and their ecosystem didn't provide enough
food for them to grow really big anyway. The combination of the big
Black Horse genetics and the small "hot" blooded horses produced almost
all the eminently-domesticatable modern Light and Draft horses. Only
Arabians and their close cousins, the Barb and the Turk, have genetics
untainted (mainly) by Big Slow Horse blood. And of the original pure
Big Slow Horse, the Balck Horse of Flanders, I do not think a single
specimen survives. Sigh.
However, you are correct that the average sizes within many breeds is going
up. Partly it's better nutrition, partly it's selective breeding. It
really annoys some Arab enthusiasts, who think any Arab over 15.1 is
an abomination. But Americans, especially, like things BIG.
--
Dennis O'Connor doconnor at sedona.intel.com
From: UOTC001 at DSIBM.OKLADOT.STATE.OK.US (Burke McCrory)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: horses
Date: Wed, 06 Jul 1994 13:45
Organization: The University of Oklahoma (USA)
conklinc at beagle.colorado.EDU (CONKLIN) writes:
>Dennis wrote:
>>What the hell, bring a Shire. Nothing like draft horse for calm.
>>And they are BIG, like the old warhorses of old.
>
>Dennis, I'm ashamed of you. People DID NOT ride draft horses
>(Clydesdales, Shires, Percherons, etc..) in period. One, most of the
>large drafts breeds were deveveloped after period. A good example of a
>period war horse in the black Fresian Goliath in Ladyhawk. Horses,
>like people, have grown is stature over the last several hundred
>years. While there were exceptions to the rule, just like there are
>human beings who are 7 feet tall, generally horses did not get over
>15.1 - 15.2. A really big horse was 15.3 - 16 hands.
>
>Chendra Rudd ferch Arainwen
>
>-the redhead-
I'm sorry Chendra but people did ride "draft horses" in period.
This discussion concerning horse size in period points out one of the
most common misconceptions concerning horses. Most of the "Draft" breeds
found today are the product of breeding for heavy pulling work during
the industrial age. So even if a horse breed exsisted in period it
might have looked very different than today. Also, remember that the
concept of "pure bred" horses is mostly a modern concept. Yes, I know
that there are some breeds that have maintaned prue breeding, Arabians
come to mind. But most of the breeds have had multiple crossings of
other breeds. Also horses in period were more closely identifed with
the region or stable that the come from. As to draft breeds in period
the Clydesdale and Shire are to late, but the Percheron and Barbant do
exsist in period. Horses from La Perch, France were on the First crusade
and the gauls had good war horses which were the ancestors to the Barbants.
Burke Kyriell MacDonald
From: PORTERG at gems.vcu.EDU (Greg Porter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Ambling mules
Date: 1 Aug 1994 15:04:14 -0400
Greetings to the Rialto:
Was just at the Kentucky Horse Park this past weekend, and saw, among
all the other things, a gaited mule. This one was doing the running walk
(I think. Exotic horse gaits are not my specialty). For those who wish
a truly period mount, especially clergy and other wealthy sorts, a gaited
mule could be the answer. Further info can be obtained from: The American
Gaited Mule Association, P.O. Box 764, Shelbyville, TN 37160. Regular
membership is $20, or $25 for family.
Fare well,
Morgan Wolfsinger (Catherine DeMott) by my lord's net access
Atlantia (Richmond, VA)
From: meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org (meg)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: horses
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 94 11:24:39 EDT
Organization: Stonemarche Network Co-op
Megan here. WE have have several equestrian events in our Barony. IMHO,
several things need to be in place before the site opens to the public.
1. A secure coral for the horses must be set up, with a double barrier to
prevent kids from wandering too close.
2. Temporary stalls must be set up for each horse.
3. A trained and responsible adult must stand guard over the horses at
all times, to keep out kids. This person should have a radio link to the
security.
4. Stands for audience should be set up at the ring, and people should be
discouraged from standing too close to the ring.
5. A short booklet explaining horse related safety should be printed and
dstributed at the gate.
6.Safety inspections of all tack and weapons (lances, etc) must be
strictly adhered to.
7.Barding must be securely attached.
8. Heralds should periodically remind the populace about approaching
horses, etc.
9.A secure mounting block should be built. Mounting from a wobbly
milkcrate in court garb just ain't fun...
well, just a few safety thoughts. Common sense things like water access,
hay cleanup and other cleanup are well, common sense, right?
Megan
==
In 1994: Linda Anfuso non moritur cujus fama vivat
In the Current Middle Ages: Megan ni Laine de Belle Rive
In the SCA, Inc: sustaining member # 33644
YYY YYY
meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org | YYYYY |
|____n____|
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: camilla at mv.mv.com (Barbara Stone)
Subject: Jousting
Organization: MV Communications, Inc.
Date: Sun, 19 Feb 1995 18:41:14 GMT
Greetings to the Rialto from Anna Dimitriova Belokon,
(Equestrian officer of the Northern Region of East Kingdom);
Jousting, specifically two people riding at each other on horses
with lances to hit each other, is forbidden by the insurance
policy of the SCA. Or at least it seemed to be. Not to get
distracted, but no one seems to know _what_ the insurance
really covers!!!! At any rate, it is forbidden by most kingdoms.
For good reason. Jousting is a dangerous sport; it killed people
frequently in period, so much so that they came up with heavier
and heavier armor and all kinds of contrivances so that jousting
could be safer. (look at 16th century jousting armor, where
the shield is an integral part of the left arm, and the lance's
bell is about eighteen inches across.) It is not something you
can casually take up, the way many of us take up rattan fighting.
The random factor of the horse's behavior makes the sport
dangerous. Horses don't always go where you aim them. The horse
is quite likely to decide to take a sidestep or change gaits or
shy at invisible deceased turtles. According to friends of mine
who have taken up this dangerous sport (NOT IN THE SCA), some
horses have the temperament for it, and some don't.
Guiding a horse with a lance in one hand and a shield in the
other is tough. Takes practice. Lots of it. To learn to joust,
first you have to learn to ride, really well. That takes time.
Then you have to learn to ride in armor. Armor completely changes
your balance (the first time I wore a helmet, I thought if I bent
over my head would fall off!). Then managing armor and horse and
a ten or twelve foot lance (they used longer ones in period...).
Then how do you train the horse when you're trying to learn...
So jousting requires a lot of commitment. So do other things
we do in the Society, but most of them are not as dangerous. I
would, in some ways like to see jousting in the Society, it is
at the heart of the tournament, the danger and pageantry. I have
a horse, but I am not willing to risk her or myself in the
sport. I know of some gentles who do, and I respect them.
Jousting isn't any crueler to horses risk-wise than cross country
jumping or other fast horse sports.
The major problem is that it would be hard to judge who is really
qualified. I'd want to be sure I trusted the person jousting
against me to have a good aim, to hit my shield or person rather
than my horse. One bad authorization by an equestrian marshal
could get someone killed. The same could be true of fighters, but
they aren't riding half-ton self-willed critters. I think that
jousting can only work among groups of people who
practice frequently and know each other.
Fortunately for equestrians, there are other sports which are
almost as much fun that we can practice. Ring tilting is period
and very good practice for lance control.
Anna Dimitriova Belokon
(suffering from a cold and unable to go riding *sigh*)
From: parkerd at mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA (Diana Parker)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: mediaeval/horse
Date: 22 Aug 1995 07:38:32 -0400
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.
RWESTMARCH <rwestmarch at aol.com> wrote:
> P.S. sorry I don't have barding [costume] for my horses or I would be
>happy to help you.
I missed the original posting. I've never done equestrian
activities in the SCA, however I have dressed the horses for costume
classes as well as home picture taking sessions.
For Barding I use their blankets. The saddle pad goes underneath,
and the saddle on top. You have to be little careful with placement, but
it's not difficult. The horses are already used to being blanketed so it
doesn't bother them.
The day blankets are solid coloured. I did make matching rein
coverings, but they were more trouble than they're worth, especially if
you have an easily distracted horse.
Also note that if you plan to have someone clamber on in armour,
allow plenty of time on the ground for them to aquaint themselves to the
horse. And for the horse to get used to clanking & glitter of all that
metal.
Cheers
Tabitha (who has a cotehardie with a skirt wide enough to drape over her
horse's hindquarters - great pictures)
----------------------------------------------
Diana Parker parkerd at mcmaster.ca
Security Services CUC - 201
McMaster University (905) 525-9140 (x24282)
From: Wendy Colbert <host.vivid.net!wendyc at uunet.uucp>
To: eden.com!ansteorra at uunet.uucp
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:43:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: SCA-equestrian mailing list available now
There is now an online mailing list for all gentles interested in
the equestrian activities of the Society for creative anachronism. the
list is intended to be for the society wide discussion of anything of
interest to sca equestrians and discussion of horse related topics of the
middle ages. The list may be subscribed to by sending a message of
"subscribe" to sca-equine-request at dnaco.net. To post to the list one
would send an email message to sca-equine at dnaco.net. There is also a
digest version available
From: mjemmons at aol.com (M J EMMONS)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Jousting???
Date: 5 Apr 1996 22:09:18 -0500
Greetings M'Lady Terry,
I am Lady Thorhalla Bjarnadottir from the Kingdom of the Outlands, and I
am the Regent of the Equestrian Guild. The SCA has deemed equestrian
jousting too dangerous, and the insurance policy won't cover it. I have
been reading a book on tournaments of the 14th century. This book states
that many fatalaties occurred at the joust, and tournaments were banned in
many countries by the King. Take heart in the fact that there is a
thriving group of equestrians in the SCA. Some of the martial arts we are
able to do include the Saracen Head course (a pole bending type maneuver
where you try to strike a "head" off of the pole with a sword), Ring Joust
(try to lance a suspended ring), pig-sticking (try to spear a styrofoam
"pig") the Quintain (try to strike a shield with a lance) and Spear Throw
(try to hit a target with a spear). These activities are done at either
the walk, trot, or canter depending on rider/horse ability. Also, many
kingdoms sponsor trail rides/quests, and have mounted processionals
involving royalty. I am uncertain as to what Kingdom Baton Rouge, LA
falls into, so I will give you the equestrian contacts for Trimaris,
Meridies, and Ansteorra. Trimaris is Mistress Rosabell de Burgundy
(Sherry Spivey) (407) 453-5649. Meridies is Lady Roxane Manathrudr
Tryggvasdottr (Debra Boyce) 601-796-3210, email rasanel at Ra.MsState.Edu.
Ansteorra is Baron Henri le Hiboun du Bois (Hank Clark), 409-985-9886,
email EUFJ81A at prodigy.com. Any of these fine gentles would be happy to
assist you.
In Service,
Halla
From: dbeasthlr at aol.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Horses in the S.C.A.
Date: 1 Dec 1996 02:25:10 GMT
Greetings from Lady Donwenna Beast Healer, SCA Deputy for Animal
Activities under the Marshallate,
My Office sets guidelines and safety standards, develops SCA events based
on period animal activities, and teaches and disperses information on the
SCA Horse and Hound.
Currently we have a Kingdom Equestrian Officer who is the Deputy to the
Kingdom Earl Marshal in every Kingdom across the Knowne World except for
Atlantia ( under development) and Trimaris ( the KEO just stepped down ).
While Every Kingdom has enjoyed Equestrian Activities in recent years,
the largest Interkingdom Equestrian event is Gulf Wars --a War which
offers every SCA activity--- takes place in Meridies, Mar 12-16, 1997.
Last year at Gulf Wars, the following Kingdoms had Equestrian Teams
competing : East, Meridies, Calontir/Caid Alliance ( won first place),
Middle, Ansteorra. We also authorized riders from Atlantia.
The Equestrian Activities are comprised mainly of the Medieval Mounted
Military Training Exercises, ie, those exercises that the Knight would
have practiced on horseback in preparation for battle. Ringtilt,
Pigsticking, spear toss utilize the spear for accuracy. Quintain uses the
heavy lance to train for jousting [which we do not do in the SCA].
Beheading the Saracen allows us to use a mace or sword against the
targets. Mounted archery uses bow and arrows on target archery.
Recently we have combined these onto one course with obstacles as a timed
event. Incredibly exciting and similar to a steeplechase but not as
dangerous.
Horses used are all types with some folks, like myself favoring a draft
cross or Warmblood cross. Many of the best horses used are Quarter Horses
although any smart Grade horse can do the job. Here is a listing of the
horses used by some of the KEO's of the different Kingdoms:
Ansteorra-Baron Henri on Harley, Arabian
Atenveldt-Lord Eldar on Sampson, Friesian cross
West (former)-Countess Iseult- Sammy(?), Percheron
Caid (former)-Lord Agelos--Titus, Trakhener cross
Caid (present)-Duke Armand--Bayard, Appendix QH deceased),
Odin, ClydesdaleX
All of these horses are over 15.3 hands and some as large as 16.3 h
Other Equestrian Activities include Royal Processionals, Mounted
Progresses (like trail rides), Quadrille (manuevers to music), Training
Workshops.
Contact me or your Kingdom Marshal to get the name of the Kingdom
Equestrian Officer for your Kingdom.
I will add updates to this list in the future.
I am available at : donwenna at sos.net
or call 360/757-9748 or 757-8187 [9 am -9 pm].
Please contact me if you have any questions.
Donwenna Beast Healer of Hawksheye (now living in An Tir)
(Donna De Bonis, DVM) 1863 State Route 20, Burlington , WA 98233
From: dbeasthlr at aol.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Horses and Hounds in the SCA by Donwenna
Date: 2 Dec 1996 17:20:26 GMT
Greetings from Lady Donwenna Beast Healer, SCA Officer for Animal
Activities under the Marshallate,
The Animal Acitivities are comprised of Horses and Hounds. The Hounds
Activities have begun with Hound Coursing and are adding in other period
activities like draft work and HuntingThese events are fairly new to the
SCA and are still under development. My SCA-wide Deputy
for Hounds is Master Gordan Beawulf of Midrealm and he can provide further
info on the topic.
Equestrian activities are comprised of Mountee Military Training
Exercises, Mounted Progresses/Processionals, and Quadrilles. Horses are
garbed in all manner of caparisons including armour and period tack.
Equestrian Marshals must be present and a special Equestrian Insurance
must be activated in order for horses to be present at any event.
The Gulf Wars is an Interkingdom event that includes Heavy Weapons war
scenarios at a fort, Mounted Royal Progresses when every Royal present and
Their retainers [over 30 horses and riders] Progress thru out the
encampment, Hound Coursing, InterKingdom Equestrian Competition, and A/S
competition, and many more take place. LAst year Meridies, Middle, East,
Calontir/Caid [won first place], Ansteorra Equestrian Teams all competed
in on a special course. The course was a timed event featuring Ringtilt,
Spear Toss, Pigsticking Rescue the Damsel, and Beheading the Enemy.
For more info on Hounds and Horses and for a contact person in your
Kingdom, please email me your name and Kingdom to donwenna at sos.net and
reply here as well so that we can continue to share info with everyone
here.
Donwenna
From: rskinner at bigsky.net (Keith Phillips)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian,rec.backcountry,alt.animals,rec.sport.rodeo,rec.pets,rec.travel.misc,rec.org.sca
Subject: Horse Transportation
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 20:57:24 GMT
Organization: Big Sky Net
Dear Horse Lover,
Word of mouth has promoted my business of
transporting horses for the past 25 years.
Now I have hit the 'Net and it's given me the
ability to communicate with clients around
the globe. I am ready to transport your
equine friends across the country or arrange
to get them around the world.
Check out my web page:
http://www.bigsky.net/hrse-trans/
Thanks,
Ron Skinner
From: reginalv at aol.com (ReginaLV)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: pictures of women on horses ? ?
Date: 27 Jan 1997 23:30:24 GMT
There are several instances of women riding pillion in several different
versions of German Landsknecht baggage trains, most of them are woodcuts.
Basic sources are "Artists and Warfare in the Renaissance" by John Hale
and "Peasants, Warriors and Wives: Popular Imagery in the Reformation" by
Keith
Moxey.
There is a beautiful, I think its marble, relief in The Metropolitan
Museum's "Resplendence of the Spanish Monarchy, Renaissance Tapestries and
Armor from the Patrimonio Nacional" showing several women on horseback.
The piece is titled " Allegory of Virtues and Vices at the Court of
Charles V" by Hans Daucher, 1522.
Hope this Helps,
Regina Lawson Voorhes
(an interested bystander)
From: v081lu33 at ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (TRISTAN CLAIR DE LUNE/KEN MONDSCHEIN)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Jousting Saddles
Date: 12 Feb 1997 00:44:14 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
I have seen the actual item-- a medieval (or more probably
Renaissance) saddle-- in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York.
They tend to be built with a high cantle and pommel, sometimes out of
metal (or of a wood frame covered by leather), with an aim towards
keeping your butt on the horse, but letting you get off in a jiffy
if you have to.
This, of course, is the WAR saddle. The sport-jousting saddle, I
have read (Barber & Barker, I believe) is more like a hunt seat: much
easier to be knocked off of (and thus not impaled witha sharp lance or
have one's neck broken by a blunted lance to the head or have one's
back broken).
Further, I have been told that medieval folks tended to ride
straight-legged, with low stirrups, which has been pretty much borne
out by the graphic evidence that I've seen. This also makes sense, since
you're less high up off the horse when standing in the stirrups/getting
into a two-point position to prepare for impact.
In fact, I think a lot of the jumping that I've been doing (English,
hunt seat) has been pretty good preparation for learning to tilt, since
the stability issue on a hunt seat when going over a jump seems a lot like
meeting the impact of a lance or sword (point those toes up!). The only
problem is that it's hard to make big turns when using an indirect rein
on an English-trained horse. On the other hand, the chanfron and neck-armor
of the barding would've kept a medieval horse from feeling a neck-rein.
This begs the question: How were warhorses steered?
Thoughts?
--Tristan
From: melizbarb at aol.com (MelizBarb)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Jousting Saddles
Date: 18 Feb 1997 07:00:46 GMT
Greetings Holly and Tristan!
There are several books you can peruse for info...Man on Horseback by
Glen R. Vernam has good descriptions of the development of saddles, but
not many pictures. There are two books The Complete Guide to the Horse and
The Noble Horse by Monika and Hans Dossenbach have some great pictures of
various types of saddles. A friend of mine has a huge tome that has lots
of line drawings and details of saddlery as well as barding and horse
armour, but the name escapes me just now... will post it to you asap. Hope
this helps!
BTW Tristan, I believe that warhorses must have gone mostly off the leg
and there are some amazing pictures of some of the goad type spurs worn by
the forward and long legged position riders at the time. It enabled the
rider to cue the horse without moving the leg back to the horse.
Melissa
From: tjustus* at sprynet.com (Remove the * to mail) (T. Justus)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Tack for War Horses: Help!
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 06:24:27 GMT
>Was there a significant difference in the saddles used by
>full-plate armored fighters in actual combat/seige situations,
>as opposed to those saddles used in exhibition tournaments?
>The period in question is early fifteenth century and the
>region France. What about stirrups and cinch-straps, as well?
>I've been able to find information about arms, armor, tactics,
>and artillery, but nothing about tack.
YES! In 15thc. France a Nobleman would have owned at least three
differant saddles.
Type One: RIDING SADDLE. This saddle has a medium pommel and cantle
used for every day riding. Very fiew survive, the Metropolitan Museum
of art owns three riding saddles dated to about 1400ad (VERY early
15th c.) One is reported to be german, the others? Anyway, they are
carved from lindenwood or the like and are lined on the underside with
birch bark. the rest of the saddle is covered with pigskin and applied
elaborately carved bone scales. they are very beautiful and at least
one of them has traces of paint in the carved recesses. Presumably
other saddles of this type perhaps less elaborately embellished were
in use but have not (To my knowledge) survived. Artwork and
iconagraphy of the peroid may be examined for particular details.
Type Two: THE WAR SADDLE . A number of war saddles from 15th c.
western europe survive in various museums. One classic example may be
seen on display at the Wallace Collection in London. These saddles are
charectarized by their high pommel and high wrap around cantle. Both
the pommel and cantle are reinforced and armoured with steel plates
(saddle steels). This saddle was used for mounted warfare and in
limited use for tournament events ( jousts of war and grand melees
etc.) These saddles are also generally of carved wood covered with
leather and upolstered with fabric at the seat and cantle.
Type Three: SPECIALIZED JOUSTING SADDLE. There were by the latter
fifteenth century a number of different types of joust. Specialized
sporting equipment and adhearance to rules were required to
participate. One exanple of a specialized tournament saddle is
exibited in the Royal Armourie's collection formerly at the Tower of
London, now in a new facility at Leeds. This saddle is often dipicted
in fifthteenth century tournament and hrealdic artwork. In this
artwork it is most often draped in fabric, obscuring the construction
details. The Royal Armourie's saddle is on desplay without such
coverings. It is of wood and consists of a very high pommel fork
attached to the saddle bars. Raised above the saddle bars and attached
to the pommel is a wood seat consisting of two ovals of wood looking
rather like a figure eight. The rider was elevated by the saddle
above the back of the horse to about the hight you would be if you
stand in your stirrups in a properly adjusted modern english saddle.
One leg passed through each loop and presumably you rode standing up
as there appeared to be no accomidation for padding the central bar.
Other specialized saddles may have existed, I would have to do more
reserch to be difinative.
TACK: Both Breastplate leathers (straping from the saddle around the
neck of the horse continuing down between the front legs,attached to
the gyrth at the belly) and Crupper leathers (straping from the saddle
to the tail ofthe horse and strapping from the saddle around the
hindquarters) were in genral use. Again, for details of reins, bits,
sturrips, harness leathers etc. your best bet is to look at peroid
artwork and iconagraphy.
I have personal photos taken on reserch trips and books
illustrating all of these things. I own a small selection of medieval
harness fittings, spur mounts, buckles, etc. I have access to spurs,
and a medieval bit in a friend's collection. Should your further
reserch prove inadiquate, you may contact me dirrectly to discuss
details too numerorus to mention here. contact me via e-mail at
tjustus at sprynet.com or (910) 227-6044 9am-10pm EST. One might suppose
from my response that I have a special interest in such things and I
am understandibly curious as to what prompted your request for this
information...
-Eldrid /Perpale azure and gules a goat climbant or.
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 15:38:38 GMT
From: "Kirsten Garner at Archaeology" <KGARNER at hsy1.ssc.ed.ac.uk>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: old breeds of farm animals
> Would the loss of size be related to probable extreme inbreeding
> due to small numbers in the breeding herds? All these domesticated
> breeds got there breed-type set somehow & in-breeding/ line-breeding
> is the way to do that. Loss of vigor is one result of that. Also, as
> you said, seems like poor diet would have been fairly inevitable.
I wouldn't think it would be due to inbreeding at that stage in the
game. This happened pretty quickly and the animals at that time
tended to be rather heterozygous as far as the gene pool went.
Breeding for a type doesn't really seem to have come into play in a
major way until the Romans although there are stallion records going
back to the Sumerians. Also...I would argue with the idea that
inbreeding causes loss of vigour. After all, Exmoors went through a
bottle-neck at the end of WWII with only some 5 stallions and 35
mares left (if I remember correctly). You would think this would
really show up in the gene pool but in recent research, the Exmoors
were found to be more heterozygous (having a larger variety of genes)
than the Arab.
2 pence worth. :)
Julian
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 15:52:48 GMT
From: "Kirsten Garner at Archaeology" <KGARNER at hsy1.ssc.ed.ac.uk>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: native pony breeds
> I'd love to here more about native (British) pony breeds. I have raised
> Welsh ponies, sections A & B for years & know some of their current
> history. Even the A's, which are truer to native type have been
> heavily influenced by crossing with Arab stallions in the fairly
> recent past. They're still lovely animals.
I agree. The Welsh are lovely ponies...all 4 sections. :) But they
are heavily influenced by Arabs (Sec A and B) in order to produce
cute riding and lead-line ponies for the show ring. There's quite a
large debate going on over here about how far the Welsh ponies have
strayed from type although if I rememebr correctly it seems that the
Sec As are further then the Bs...having more Arab. The Sec C and D
ponies were also crossed with Irish Draught and Thoroughbred blood.
> I've never seen an Exmoor in person. I like the looks of Fells
> ponies in pictures. Do you know their background?
Fell ponies (and Dales...the other side of the mountains. :) come
from the same stock as the Exmoors and, therefore, have the "chunk"
which identifies a mountain pony. They're also cow-hocked slightly
(one of the reasons that horse breeders see fit to "improve" the
breeds) since being slightly cow-hocked helps in navigating rocky and
mountainous terrain. However, Fell and Dales ponies (I'm really
partial to the Dales myself) have been subject to improvements in the
form of, I think, some Arab (for refinement), some TB (the English
cross Thoroughbred into *everything*). and something else which
escapes me. So they're not pure either, but they're lovely. :)
Julian
From: karen (Karen Stegmeier)
Subject: Society Equestrian Newsletter!
To: karen at addl.purdue.edu
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:34:10 +22300454 (EST)
Attention Equestrians and Horse Enthusiasts! There is a new
SCA newsletter that may interest you. Society Hoofbeats-the newsletter of
the office of the Society Deputy Marshal for Equestrian Activities, is a
new society-wide newsletter devoted to the Horse in the SCA.
Society Hoofbeats will be published quarterly (paper format) and is intended
as a venue for a wide variety of material; from the latest news from the
Society Equestrian Officer and IKEqC up-dates to Equestrian How-To and
research articles. The first edition is scheduled to be published in late
January with subsequent issues in the second half of the months of April,
July, and October.
Anyone wishing to contribute artwork and/or articles please contact the Chronicler, Lady Isabeau Pferdebandiger (address listed below), for material deadlines and permission form info.
Subscriptions will be $10(U.S.) for 1 year for U.S. and Canadian addresses
and $15(U.S.) for 1 year for all other addresses. Subscriptions will run
within the calendar year. Subscribers who subscribe at full price later in the
year will recieve all back issues for the year as fullfillment of their
subscription -OR- for pro-rated subscription send $2.50 per remaining issue
for U.S. and CAN addresses or $3.75 per remaining issue for all other addresses.
Because all newsletter funds must go through an SCA account, The Middle
Kingdom Equestrian College has been kind enough to share their account and
exchequer with us. Therefore all subscription checks or money orders should
be made out to: SCA,inc., Middle Kingdom Equestrian College with the words
"Society Hoofbeats subscription" in the memo line.
send to: Society Hoofbeats chronicler Attn: Karen Stegmeier,
1345 N. Kickapoo Rd. Attica, IN 47918 questions reguarding material may
be addressed on email at karen at addl.purdue.edu
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 12:03:11 -0500
From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>
To: Ldlrochlle at aol.com, paemrys at aol.com, tjustus at sprynet.com,
sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu, "Mary E.Kirk" <checheyigan at hotmail.com>
Subject: Horse Stuff
Knight of Outremer 1187-1344 AD, Osprey Warrior Series 18, ISBN
1-85532-555-1 has two full pages of exploded views of Saddles,
Stirrups, Bits, Harness, Chainmail Barding and Barding for horses
as well as a number of other illustrations, mostly period. Outremer
was what was left of the Crusader Kingdoms in that period.
Magnus
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 8:52:34 -0600
From: "I. Marc Carlson" <LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.edu>
To: SCA-ARTS at RAVEN.CC.UKANS.EDU
Subject: Roman saddle
Several days ago I referred to some articles on Roman Saddles. These
include (IIRC)
Connolly, Peter. "The Roman Saddle" In Dawson, M. (ed.) _Roman Military
Equipment, The accoutrements of war. Proceedings of the 3rd Roman Military
Research Seminar. Oxford, 1987. pp.7-27
And, I *believe*
Groenmann-van Wateringe, W. "Romanische lederfunde aus Vindonissa und
Valkenburg Z.H., ein Vergleich." _Jahresbericht der Gesellsccchaft Pro Vindonissa_ 1975, pp 62-84.
Marc/Diarmaid
Subject: ANST - Re: RN- Leather question
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 99 09:06:54 MST
From: Gunnora Hallakarva <gunnora at bga.com>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
Isobel asked:
> My cadet brother gave me a saddle that I want to clean up for
> riding at the Squires and CAdets Invitational event. It had been
> lying around for a number of years and is somewhat moldy,
> though the leather seems to be holding together under the mold.
> Oh, great leather god-like entities....what's the best way to
> restore a yucky saddle?
Were it me, I'd take it to a professional saddle shop and ask them for an
estimate to clean, recondition, and repair the saddle. They will be able to
spot damage that you're not used to looking for - and that can save you and the horse a lot of pain.
If you do it yourself, first saddle soap the hell out of the saddle to
remove the dirt and mold. You may have to repeat this step a few times, depending on the amount of grime. Then you'll need to recondition the leather. If the saddle has been badly abused, it may take more than neatsfoot oil or similar products -- ask youlocal saddle shop what they have in stock and
what they recommend.
Check all the stitching -- has it rotted? If so replace it! Check the
straps for cracks and weaknesses. If you can pull it apart in your hands, well, the horse is stronger than you are. Chances are good that you should replace all the straps.
Check for flexibility in the places that must be flexible. If the leather is dry and rigid, it won't flex, and you're going to have a saddle that's certainly uncomfortable for the horse, and possibly for you as well.
Check the seat. If the saddle is old, the seat padding will probably need to be completely replaced.
Check the tree. If it's a synthetic tree, chances are that it's unharmed. If it's wood, check for termites and dry rot. If it's a composite tree, you may have rust, you may have rotted rawhide. If the tree is damages, the saddle is likely not easily repairable.
Now here's the rub (literally!) Saddles are usually chosen for size on on both sides of the saddle -- it has to fit the horse (and no, one size does NOT fit all!) and it has to fit the rider (again, one size does not fit all). When the saddle is on the horse and you are on the saddle, there should
be some room (maybe two fingers' worth) under the tree above the horse's
spine. That saddle absolutely should not be sitting directly on the horse at all points. Are you certain that this saddle is going to fit the horse you will be riding? Consult with an experienced rider on how to fit saddle to horse and vice versa. I never purchased my own saddles - my parents were in charge of that, so check with someone who is more expert -- Octavia??
If you're ever in the market for a saddle, my personal recommendation for new riders and experienced riders alike is to get an Australian cavalry/police saddle. Australian saddles have much deeper seats (4 inches as opposed to about a 2" dip on a regular Western saddle) and they can be obtained with or without the saddle horn. The cavalry saddles have a variety of snaffles and tie-downs on the saddle so you can easily attach trail gear or barding, they have a more medieval style seat with the high front and back, and it's even possible to strap yourself into a cavalry saddle so that you can't fall out (usually not done unless you're riding with others who will hopefully not lead your horse under a low hanging branch and normally used today only by those trying to nap in the saddle!) I used an Australian saddle for barrel racing in my dissipated childhood, and I never came out of that saddle (English saddles were a whole 'nother story!)
Baroness Gunnora Hallakarva, OL
Subject: ANST - saddles ...
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 99 11:32:22 MST
From: "j'lynn yeates" <jyeates at realtime.net>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
while my famility no longer has horses, we've kept our tack stored and
maintained (self still has three saddles and all the related gear up dallas
way) ... thought i'ld interject some additional comments.
On 6 Apr 99, at 9:58, Gunnora Hallakarva wrote:
> If you do it yourself, first saddle soap the hell out of the saddle to
> remove the dirt and mold. You may have to repeat this step a few times,
> depending on the amount of grime.
additional hint ... a nylon bristle hand-brush is a excellent tool for working
the soap down into the leather pores during cleaning phase. put together a
"tack box" with your leather repair kit, oil, saddle soap and make saddle
maintanence a regular thing (mine are securly stored in a controlled, dry
environment, but make it a point to clean and oil them once a year to
protect the leather.
> ... Then you'll need to recondition the leather. If the saddle has
> been badly abused, it may take more than neatsfoot oil or similar
> products -- ask youlocal saddle shop what they have in stock and
> what they recommend.
a warning on "neatsfoot oil" ... there is quality NO that's excellent and
there is stuff labeled NO that contains a high percentage of acidic fillers
that will literally eat organic materials over time, especially stitching (ever
wonder why the favored leather boots were always failing at the stitching
when you used the cheap NO from the grocery store ????). lesson here,
read the label *closely*
> Check all the stitching -- has it rotted? If so replace it!
see reference to why it may be rotted ..
> ... Check the straps for cracks and weaknesses. If you can pull it
> apart in your hands, well, the horse is stronger than you are.
> Chances are good that you should replace all the straps.
on old saddles, strap replacement is always a good, basic, safety ..
something my grandfather taught me a long time back. if the straps are
cracked, they will fail there eventually. save yourself from getting dumped
(and possibly injured) by replacing them first..
> Check the seat. If the saddle is old, the seat padding will probably need
> to be completely replaced.
not to mention it's a wise investment for the horse to get a *quality* saddle
pad. seen a lot of animal problems where the rider cheaped out on the pad
... leading to seriously annoyed horse that wants saddle and *you* off its
back as quickly as possible.
> If you're ever in the market for a saddle, my personal recommendation for
> new riders and experienced riders alike is to get an Australian
> cavalry/police saddle. Australian saddles have much deeper seats (4
> inches as opposed to about a 2" dip on a regular Western saddle) and they
> can be obtained with or without the saddle horn.
here's a link that shows several variants, with a sidebar link to correct
saddle fitting:
http://www.aussiesaddle.com/sad_index.html
> ... The cavalry saddles have a variety of snaffles and tie-downs on
> the saddle so you can easily attach trail gear or barding, they
> have a more medieval style seat with the high front and back, and
> it's even possible to strap yourself into a cavalry saddle so that
> you can't fall out
of the three i still own (including a mexican dress sadlle with *tons* of solid
silver plate, and a generic western working saddle) is a US style cavalry
saddle (reproduction made in early 70's) that was always my favorite for
many of the reasons you outline ... not really good for stock working, but
great for generic and trail riding.
really gotta work on getting some horses again .... been way too long
without.
'wolf
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 14:56:11 -0400
From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>
Organization: Windmaster's Hill, Atlantia, and the GDH
To: medieval-leather at egroups.com
Subject: Re: [medieval-leather] Equine Equipment
The following books deal with Horse Material from the Ancient and
Medieval Periods and may be of use to the re-enactor community.
Wagner, Edouard: Yoroslova Drobna, and Jan Durdik
Medieval Costume, Armour and Weapons 1350-1450
Translated by Jean Layton, Czechoslovakia; Artia, 1958
London, P. Hamlyn (publisher) 1962 more than one edition.
72 p. 383 plates.
Translation of Kroje, zvroj a zbrane doby piredhusitske'
a husitak'e Bibliography: p/ 71-72
GT575.W293 1962 63-4774 1.Costume-Hist.-Medieval.
2. Arms and Armor 3. Harness OCLC 332087
These plates are hand drawn illustrations from paintings, sculpture,
and actual objects, and cover a wide area of Europe.
You will find all kinds of stuff in it. A great deal on Horses,
saddles, barding, harness, wagons (including fighting). Big Book.
..................................................................
You might also try The Medieval Warhorse - Origin, Development, and
Redevelopment by R.H.C. Davis, Thames and Hudson, London 1989
It only has fifty illustrations, but most are earlier in Period.
There are no modern illustrations. ISBN 0-500-25102-9
..................................................................
The Medieval Horse and Its Equipment, Medieval Finds from
Excavations in London 5, Museum of London, circa 1150-1450 AD.
Edited by John Clark, HMSO-London, 1995, ISBN 0-11-290485-8.
Skips around a great deal, depicting things before period and up to
the 19th century, no saddles specifically, some period illustrations
of horses being rode, sticks mostly to bits, spurs, stirrups,
pendants, fittings, curry combs, shoes. If you are looking to
reconstruct a saddle or for much barding see other sources, you
won't find it here.
..................................................................
Another MAJOR book which I would think that you would want is:
The Encyclopedie Medievale by Viollet le Duc reprinted by
Inter-Livres in France in 1993. I think it has been reprinted since
then. The French printer didn't like to put decent information on the
title pages so I'll give you the bar code number and the impression
information from the last page. The originals were printed in the
1800s. Boy, if only Dover did this one...
9 782878 300338
Achev'e d'imprimer en aout 1993 dans les ateliers de Normandie Roto
Impression s.a. a' Lonrai (61250) - No d'imprimeur : 13-15000.
D'epot l'egal : aout 1993.
This is huge and consists of two huge volumes bound into one, each was
about 720 pages, or about 1440 total, with about 4000 illustrations.
Well, who was Viollet le Duc? He was the guy who restored Notre Dame
and some other French national monuments in the mid 1800's for the
French Gov't. For example he redid Carcassone, which never had those
pointy towers on the city walls before he added them. Another thing
he put over on us was the gargoyles on Notre Dame which really are
his and his masons' interpretations of the originals. There are other
debatable transgressions too, but he saved the monuments, often
reworking them like St. Denis.
The majority of the two volumes in one are architectural renderings of
things medieval in France, but they also include armor, costume, tools, furniture, weapons, feast gear, saddles, stirrups, barding, etc. It is
a massive work done by a number of artists.
The last time I saw it for sale it was from Scholar's Bookshelf, which
often sells French Medieval books (in french). It cost about $125 then.
http://www2.scholarsbookshelf.com/ for military books and videos
http://www.scholarsbookshelf.com/catalog.html to request a variety of
different kinds of catalogs including fine arts and literature.
or to email - books at scholarsbookshelf.com
I can recommend these folks highly.
Note: It was still available in France in 1998.
................................
A History of British Native Ponies, by Anthony Dent and Daphne
Machin Goodall, (first published in 1962 under the title Foals of
Epona)
From the Bronze Age to the Present Day. J. A. Allen, London 1988.
ISBN 0-85131-436-8. 32 plates, 58 line drawings, 305 pages. A
great deal of period art in the way of sculpture, statues, illuminations
and later depictions. Shows Viking stirrups, line drawings based on
Bayeaux tapestry. Obviously horses are included. No good depictions
of saddles.
...............................
Greece and Rome at War by Peter Connolly, Prentice-Hall Inc.,
Eaglewood Cliffs, NJ. Also Macdonald Phoebus, 1981, ISBN
0-13-364976-8 Lof Congress 810218. Currently available in 1998.
Includes depictions of chariots and the early Roman saddles dating to
the early empire, just after the death of Caesar, stating that they
are almost certainly of Celtic origin. A great deal of depicitions
of horse sculpture and remains of fittings and armor are included.
................................
The Armour of Imperial Rome, by H. Russell Robinson, Charles
Scribner's Sons, New York, 1975, ISBN 0-684-13956-1.
LoCongress 74-11777. Contains Roman Cavalry armor, horse
armor, scale horse bards, and a pattern for the Valkenburg saddle
cited above. There are of course a number of illustrations of
sculpture also included. This is the bible on Roman Armour
of the Imperial Age. Most surviving examples are included.
................................
The Roman Saddle is discussed in depth in:
Military Illustrated - Past and Present Magazine #13 June/July 1988
which is an issue on Roman Cavalry reenactment. Part of the
magazine is a particular article by Peter Connolly, pages 26-32,
and depicts the reconstruction and trials of the saddle in pretty
good depth. There is also a preceding article on the Cohortes
Equitate from Augustus to Hadrian by Paul Holder and illustrated
by Peter Connolly on pages 21-6.
(I know you can ILL articles from this magazine because I recently
received one. It is a British magazine for reenactors and it is
extremely accurate and detailed. The last issue I have is from
the early '90s and it was $75 stateside then. I imagine it is
$100 now.)
Two books on Valkenburg where the Roman Saddles were found:
GLASBERGEN, W./W.GROENMAN-VAN WAATERINGE: The
Pre-Flavian Garrison of Valkenburg Z.H.; 1974. 50p. Ills. [KNAW].
GROENMAN-VAN WAATERINGE, W., Romeins Lederwerk Uit
Valkenburg Z.H. Gron., Wolters, 1967. Gr.8vo. 221 pp. Met 76
afb./fig. Bibliogr.. (also used).
................................
Haworth, Richard: The Horse Harness of the Irish Early Iron Age,
Ulster Journal of Archaeology, Vol. 34, 1971, pp. 26-41,
separate offprint., 2 page bibliog..
................................
Mielczarek, Mariusz: Cataphracti and Clibanarii - Studies on
the Heavy Armoured Cavalry of the Ancient World; Oficyna
Naukowa, Lodz, Poland, 1993, Studies on the History of Ancient
and Medieval Warfare, Vol I, ISBN 8385874003, pb.
Available through Oxbow.
................................
Seaby, Wilfred A.: Viking Stirrups from England and Their
Background; Medieval Archaeology 24, 1980, pp. 87-122,
extensive biblio., and plate VIII.
................................
The animal that made history, THE MEDIEVAL WARHORSE FROM
BYZANTIUM TO THE CRUSADES, by Ann Hyland.
A fascinating survey of the role and importance of the warhorse as it
emerged from the Roman and Byantine eras and took its place in the
military campaigns of medieval Europe. Addressing the whole spectrum
of the medieval warhorse in all its varieties, from those used by the
upper classes to the heavy warhorse or destrier, this book discusses
the warhorse's origins, nature, and uses; its breeding, feeding, and
training, and its value, both monetary and practical. Covers such
details as the SADDLES and HARNESSES used, the techniques of riding;
todays couterparts of the medieval warhorse and more. B&W photos &
illustrations (Combined) 204pp. PB Pub. $16.95
Catalog price only: $12.98 E170328 Catalog Key J34R 6000.
Barnes and Noble 1-800-843-2665 http://www.barnesandnoble.com
................................
Osprey Books often hold a great deal of information including
some exploded views, not a lot but easily understood:
See plate G of Ospreys Warrior Series #1 Norman Knight 950-1204 AD
by Christopher Gravett. Shows 11th and 12th C saddles, bridles and
a sumpter (pack) horse with panniers. ISBN 1-85532-287-0
Gravett is Asst. Curator of Armour at Britains' Royal Armouries.
See plate H (double page) of Osprey Warrior Series #10 Saracen Faris
1050-1250 AD. Shows exploded views of two saddles and harness and
fittings. By David Nicole. ISBN 1-85532-453-9.
There are a few horse illustrations, including modern interpretational
drawings in Germanic Warrior, 236-568 AD by Simon MacDowell,
illustrated by Angus McBride, Osprey Warrior Series #17. One
of the modern pictures shows stirrups in use, none are depicted.
Various Germanic and Frankish bits and stirrups are pictured.
ISBN 1-85532-586-1.
Knight of Outremer 1187-1344 AD, Osprey Warrior Series 18,
by David Nicolle, PhD, illustrated by Christa Hook, ISBN
1-85532-555-1 has two full pages of exploded views of Saddles,
Stirrups, Bits, Harness, Chainmail Barding and Barding for horses
as well as a number of other illustrations, mostly period. Outremer
was what was left of the Crusader Kingdoms in that period.
ISBN 1-85532-555-1.
The nice thing about the Warrior series from Osprey Books is the
very detailed construction views of arms and armor, costume, etc.
Osprey Elite Series # 3, The Vikings, by Ian Heath, illustrated by
Angus McBride, depicts several Viking spurs and bits, and has
a really nice reconstruction of the Gokstad Bridle. Modern
depictions of Vikings ahorse are included. ISBN O 85045 565 0
For the Norman period there is The Normans, by David Nicholle,
illustrated by Angus McBride, Osprey Elite Series #9 which depicts
numerous sculptures, chess pieces, illuminations and modern
illustrations of Normans and foes on horse. ISBN0-85045-729-7.
In the Osprey Elite Series, #17 Knights at Tournament by Christopher
Gravett will be found a lot of pictures of barding, chest defences,
and four non-exploded saddle illustrations. ISBN 0-85045-836-6.
Osprey Elite Series 27, Soldiers of the English Civil War (2) Cavalry
by John Tincey, colour plates by Angus McBride depicts horses of
the period in period and modern illustrations but not tack
individually.
ISBN 0-85045-940-0
..................
In ARMS AND ARMOR OF THE MEDIEVAL KNIGHT by David Edge
and John Miles Paddock, Crescent, ISBN 0-517-64468 continually
reprinted and cheap at the price, you will find many pictures of
saddles, barding, horse armor, including the saddle of Henry V
(1422) and a Maximillian saddle.
.............
The Triumph of Maximillian I, 137 Woodcuts by Hans Burgkmair and
Others Dover, 1964, LofCongress 63-19488 depicts a great many of
the differing styles of horse furnishings and armor. The first
edition came out in 1526.
...............
Ward Perkins, J B.: London Museum Medieval Catalogue 1940.
Anglia Publishing, 1993. Catalogue of the wide-ranging collection:
weapons, tools, horse furniture, pendants, keys, purses, weights,
lighting, household utensils, plate, pottery, tiles, pilgrim
souvenirs, buckles, chapes, figures, wood, bone, ivory, glass,
pipeclay, whetstones, seals. 322pp, illustrated boards, profusely
illustrated with photos and drawings.
New. Book # 16 £24.50 (approx. 38.89 American Dollars)
Anglia Publishing , Unit T, Dodnash Priory Farm Hazel Shrub,
Bentley, Ipswich, United Kingdom , IP9 2DF Phone 01473 311138 /
Fax 01473 312288, anglia at anglianet.co.uk ('99)
..............
Master Magnus Malleus, OL, Windmasters' Hill, Atlantia and the GDHorde.
Copyright R. M. Howe 2000. May be reprinted in SCA or reenactor
publications or the Florilegium provided a copy is sent to
P.O.Box 5764, Raleigh, NC 27650 USA and the publication is NOT
for profit. Okayed for SCA email list use but not to the Rialto
or newsgroups.
.....................................
[Sent to the Florilegium by: "Philippa Alderton" <phlip at morganco.net>]
From: Lynda Fjellman <lfjellman at pru-nw.com>
To: 'sca-equine at midrealm.org' <sca-equine at midrealm.org>
Date: Monday, August 28, 2000 8:49 PM
Subject: [SCA Equestrian] bards and other horse covers
>If you feel that you can't make bards for your horse without a pattern here
>is the URL for Suitability
>http://www.suitability.com/index.htm
>and here is the direct link to the horse sheet and blanket pattern.
>http://www.suitability.com/hrp7900.htm
>With this pattern, some fabric and a sewing machine, you can make good
>looking bards. These patterns are relatively easy to do. Just change the
>straps and buckles for ties and throw your saddle over all.
>Ilaria
From: Phlip <phlip at 99main.com
Date: Tue Oct 21, 2003 9:28:17 PM US/Central
To: SPCA <spca-wascaerfrig at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [spca-wascaerfrig] Fw: [EK-Equine] Persian Horse Barding
http://www.roxanefarabi.com/15CenHorseArmor.php
Saint Phlip
CoDoLDS
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 17:00:32 +1300
From: Antonia Calvo <dama.antonia at gmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Horse Breeding OT But!... I know someone will
know the answer...
Ratt wrote:
<<< But just for some motivation to help my boss out... Her Boss and she were talking about Horses and The Morgan Horse came up and Mr
Knowitall pipes up with "you know, the ones the knights used to
ride." Well my manager having seen and worked with Morgans argues
back that said horse is to small... but her boss is having nothing to
do with that side of the argument and is insisting that the knights
rode these damn things...
BTW final answer uuuuurrrrrrnnnnnhhhhhh Wrong The Morgan Horse is an
American Breed So NOPE The only knights that could ride those horses
would be our Modern Knights. >>>
You are correct that the Morgan is a specifically American breed, so no,
medieval knights couldn't have ridden Morgans. However, research by the
Museum of London suggests destriers stood about 14-15 hands (very
similar to Morgans) and the Royal Armouries suggest 15-16 hands
(slightly taller). Having said that, the destrier was probably build
slightly heavier and more solid than the Morgan.
--
Antonia di Benedetto Calvo
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 08:04:57 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] FRIESIANS was Horse Breeding OT
Actually it's Friesians.
My brother and sister in law own several. She's even been over to see the Dutch
stables and farms where the European stallions are housed. Her first mare came over from the Netherlands. These are the sorts of horses that are natural
for the show ring. They are big gorgeous animals and extremely photogenic.
It's also a really expensive hobby.
Martha Stewart owns Friesians and her horses have been featured on
her show several times.
Johnnae
On Dec 22, 2009, at 3:05 AM, Patricia Dunham wrote:
<<< FYI, the gorgeous black horse that Rutger Hauer rides in the movie
Ladyhawke is a FRISIAN. Definitely a medieval breed used by
knights. See the Wiki article; the modern Frisian may be a bit
lighter, but is the same height, as the medieval strain.
There is quite an interesting article at Wiki about "Horses in the
Middle Ages"; the writers' point being that medieval sources didn't
go by what we consider breeds, but by what type of work the animal
was doing: destrier, rouncy, palfrey, etc.
Big discussion about size controversies, too.
Chimene >>>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 07:18:00 -0800
From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <dailleurs at liripipe.com>
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] FRIESIANS was Horse Breeding OT
And I would question the assumption that because Rutger Hauer rode one in
Ladyhawke that makes it a medieval type of horse...the modern Friesian was
bred as a pretty pretty carriage horse (and IMO they have the gaits to prove
it. Ouch!)
As someone mentioned "breeds" as a concept was more of a 18th-19th c. idea.
You would have traits passed down from a line based on geography (the horses
in THIS area tended to be the same size, color, etc, and so that area would
get to be known for breeding good work horses riding horses or war horses)
even the trait of "gaiting" is a medieval one...the wife of bath rode a
gaited horse....
That said, if you look at the medieval illos you quickly see the type of
horses that were prized for what activities. And if you look at the length
of leg compared to the size of the rider, you can very quickly see how big
they were (not to mention the size of bits, saddles, etc that we have in
museums, and even medieval and renaissance horsemanship manuals that talk
about what characteristics you want for what kind of work)
BTW, these horsemanship manuals? Sometimes have recipes in them (for feeds,
medicines, etc).
-Anne-Marie
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 15:22:54 +0000
From: Holly Stockley <hollyvandenberg at hotmail.com>
To: <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] FRIESIANS/Frisians and segueing back to food
Either spelling is acceptable, in fact. In their own tongue, it would actually be Fryske. As they are originally thought to be from the region known as Fryslan. In Latin, it was called Frisia - hence "Frisians", in Dutch Friesland - and so "Friesians."
In fact, Odrianna van der Brugge of the East Kingdom has done a spectacular class and notes on reconstructing Frisian cuisine of the period 900-1100 from archaeological evidence. I've bribed her into teach it at the Royal University of the Midrealm on Feb 20th. ;-)
We Frisii are a hardheaded, stubborn bunch. One of the few Germanic tribes to have (so far) held on to our own language. Less so things like food.
Femke de Roas
From: johnnae at mac.com
<<< Actually it's Friesians.
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 12:48:50 -0500
From: "Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps" <dephelps at embarqmail.com>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Horse Breeding OT But!...
<<< I seem to remember when reading about the Crusades that the
Arabs tended to be armored lighter and riding smaller horses. Which would
fit both with the native horses there, the Arab?, and the terrain. >>>
In my readings I seem to recall the suggestions that the Crusaders tended to
ride stallions while the Moslem combatants tended to ride mares. Be that
as it may check this site http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barb_(horse) for more
information regarding local horse flesh of the middle east in period.
Was also written:
I thought that donkeys and asses were the same thing, at least when you
were talking about animals.
Yes in the main that is correct, I should have written donkey/ass. The
African wild ass, the believed progenitor of all the world's donkeys, is
generally the only of those beasts that is, if I am not mistaken, never
referred to as a donkey. For all others those terms, to include burro I
suspect, are, at least among English speakers, English being a language that
borrows extensively from other languages, interchangeable.
Daniel
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 15:47:18 +0100
From: "Susanne Mayer" <susanne.mayer5 at chello.at>
To: <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Horse Breeding OT But!... I know someone will
Ann Hyland has written a couple of books that are quite extensive on
this topic:
The Medieval Warhorse and the The Warhorse 1250-1600.
as to the fresian horses: originally it was a carriage horse and not a breed
ridden much.
One of the most probable breeds for a norman kinght would be the ancestors
of the percheron
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percheron
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_horse
Regards from Katarina (riding a very unmedieval 17 hands plus, (black)
ex-trotter)
<the end>