ambergris-msg - 8/10/18

The use of ambergris in period. amber of grece. Ambergris is the excretion of whales that is composed of the undigested remains of cuttlefish.

NOTE: See also the files: gums-resins-msg, spices-msg, merch-spices-msg, p-herbals-msg, seeds-msg, incense-msg, Perfumes-bib, perfumes-msg.

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From: "HICKS, MELISSA" <HICKS_M at casa.gov.au>
To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: RE: Re: [Sca-cooks] online glossary
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 09:58:10 +1000

It is also used in some very late period jam and confectionary recipes.  I
think there's one in Fettiplace. I'll dig it out tonight if no-one posts a
recipe in the meantime.

Mel.

> > >amber of grece, ambergris
> > I think my memory's not working right, because something tells
> > me this is a whale by-product, and that doesn't seem right somehow.
>
> Nothing wrong with your memory.  It's from whales, and is
> used primarily as an ingredient in perfumes.
>
> Thorvald

From: "Elise Fleming" <alysk at ix.netcom.com>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 20:59:40 -0500
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: On Line Glossary

Query and one response:

> >amber of grece, ambergris
>> I think my memory's not working right, because something tells
>> me this is a whale by-product, and that doesn't seem right
somehow.

>Nothing wrong with your memory.  It's from whales, and is used primarily
>as an ingredient in perfumes.

It was also used in confections in late period - Tudor (IIRC),
Stuart, Jacobean, along with musk.  I've seen it as an ingredient in
sugar/gum paste.

Alys Katharine

Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 10:49:48 -0400
From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler at chesapeake.net>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] online glossary

I know that it appears in some of the recipes from Elizabethan times.  When I
did a feast last year from that period, I found the following in the Folger
Library's catalogue which included a reprint of recipes from Sarah Longe's
Receipt Booke:

p.  19, Mrs Sarah Longe her Receipt Booke [c. 1610] from Fooles and
Fricassees:  Food in Shakespeare=92s England (Published by the Folger
Shakespeare Library, Washington, DC, 1999)

Take a pound of Almons, blanch them, then beate them in a morter [;] then put
in a little rosewater to them, that they may not turn to an Oyle in their
beating; when they are beaten very small take them up and put them into a Dish
[;] then take half a pound of sugar beaten very small and put to them the
whites of 4 Eggs, with a little Quantity of musk, and Ambergrease [;] then
beat it altogether a quarter of an hour, then put it upon papers in what
fashion you will.  You must be carefull in the making of it, that it be not
coloured to[o] much.

I omitted both the musk and Ambergris as the only place I could find either
one was a perfume supply house.  I knew that the ambergris was synthetic and
worried about using it in food.

Kiri

From: Devra at aol.com
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 11:27:56 EDT
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Sca-cooks digest, Ambergris

Actually, both ambergris and musk show up in several of the original recipes in DINING WITH WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE.  I never did figure out what to substitute for that...I don't know whether the artificial musk is edible.

Devra the Baker

From: Christina Nevin <cnevin at caci.co.uk>
To: "'SCA Cookslist'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] online glossary
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:57:55 +0100 

	"Cindy M. Renfrow" wrote:
	Here are a few more terms to kick around.  If you have sources and
	alternate spellings please send them along.

	amber of grece, ambergris

No references to it yet, but I do have a photo of some here:
http://www.geocities.com/~thorngrove/ambergris.jpg

Lucrezia

Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 16:47:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris Stanifer <jugglethis at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] strange recipe
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

--- dale elliott <el2iot2 at mail.com> wrote:
> Question:  Where do you buy Whale Barf<ambergrise>?
>
> Radei

http://www.profumo.it/perfume/prodotto.asp?pid=2955&lang=en

or, you can find it floating on the waves for free...

WdG

Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:37:24 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] strange recipe
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

"dale elliott" <el2iot2 at mail.com> wrote:
> Question:  Where do you buy Whale Barf<ambergrise>?
>
> Radei

Ambergris is not really whale barf. I realize you were being
humorous, but i don't want lurkers to be led astray.

The sperm whale is the largest toothed whale and does not have a
baleen, which is a sort of filter. Instead, it eats various things
that have hard  and sharp parts that are not digested, like squid
beaks. Ambergris is a waxy substance produced to coat these hard
sharp bits so they don't injure the whale's digestive system. Yes, it
is regurgitated. But barf as i think of it is food you eat and
started to digest in your stomach, but for various reasons have
vomited up. Ambergris is rather different than partially digested
food mixed with stomach acids.
--  
Urtatim, formerly Anahita

Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 22:53:49 -0400
From: Kerri Martinsen <kerrimart at cablespeed.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] ambergris
To: SCA Cooks <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

If you are looking at it for perfume, you can purchase faux ambergris from
perfume supply sellers.   I wouldn't eat it though...

http://www.alchemy-works.com/incense_ambergris.html

Vitha

Subject: [SCACreativeFrugality] Digest Number 656
Date: February 18, 2009 3:28:44 AM CST
To:   SCACreativeFrugality at yahoogroups.com
Re: ambergris
From: "Dr. Carus" darlingg at activematerials.ca newalchemist2001

Well, I did find a source for beach-harvested ambergris, in New Zealand 
(http://www.ambergris.co.nz/), but their minimum order far exceeds my 
needs. Possibly some interested Merchant might stock from there, to then 
accept small orders from myself and others...?

Dr. Carus of Burn Abbey
Past Baroness' Champion of Science (Lions Gate), 2008-05 to 2008-11
mka...
Mr. Graham D. Darling, Ph.D.

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 00:08:02 -0400
From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] ambergris
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< There is an individual on the SCA Creative Frugality list looking for a source. I seem to remember he was looking for rather small quantities of various items for a spice class. >>>

I've seen this site mentioned.  The price is $20 per gram, with a minimum purchase of 4 grams, including postage and packing.
http://www.ambergris.co.nz/

Ranvaig

Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 18:01:27 -0400
From: "Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps" <dephelps at embarqmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] ambergris
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Regards ambergis this bit of infornation gleaned from the web.  Perhaps it 
will help:
Ambergris occurs as a biliary secretion of the intestines of the sperm 
whale, and can be found floating upon the sea, or in the sand near the 
coast. It is also sometimes found in the abdomens of whales. Because giant 
squids' beaks have been found embedded within lumps of ambergris, scientists 
have theorized that the whale's intestine produces the substance as a means 
of easing the passage of hard, sharp objects that the whale might have 
inadvertently eaten.

Ambergris can be found in the Atlantic Ocean; on the coasts of Brazil and 
Madagascar; and on the coast of Africa, of the East Indies, The Maldives, 
mainland China, Japan, India, Australia, New Zealand and the Molucca 
islands. Most commercially collected ambergris comes from the Bahama Islands 
and Providence Island in the Caribbean.

Bernard PERRIN Courtage
Z.I. des Bois de Grasse
B.P. 91006 - Arthes
06131 GRASSE Cedex
FRANCE

Expert in selling and buying WHALE AMBERGRIS
Telephone: +33 611745109
Fax: +33 493 709061
Mail: expert at ambergris.fr

SELL YOUR AMBERGRIS TO WWW.PROFUMO.IT

for expertise on quality and selling your find of please contact us
Tel:  00 39 0541 86 30 13
Skype username: profumo.it
profumo at profumo.it

In Italian: Ambra grigia

In French: Ambregris

See also: www.buyandsellambergris.com

Daniel

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 15:37:25 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] ambergris
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I hadn't paid any attention to this thread but yes I think you are right.
It says here:
"Ambergris falls under the Marine Mammal Protection Act of 1972 and is 
illegal to import in the U.S.A."
http://www.netstrider.com/documents/ambergris/subject_encyclopedias/index.html
It's the same law that makes importing whalebone examples illegal too.

Johnnae

Beth Ann Bretter wrote:
<<< I haven't been a merchant for almost two years so my information is a little out of date, but isn't ambergris illegal for sale inside the US? 

Peyton >>>

From: Arianwen ferch Arthur <caer_mab at yahoo.com>
Date: March 23, 2009 1:30:38 AM CDT
To: StefanliRous at austin.rr.com

I believe Pan's Pantry has ambergris  (UK though)

the Wise Woman might also...

Arianwen ferch Arthur

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 10:34:50 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
To: SCA-Cooks <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Book on Ambergris

Daniel wrote:
<<< This links to a short article on ambergris. It is my understanding that sperm whale sputum
was occasionally used in period as a culinary ingredient. 

http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/culturelab/2012/05/why-you-really-should-have-heard-of-ambergris.html >>>

US$20/gram? Cool, i can afford that! (as if i could find it anywhere) According to the memoirs of a very wealthy 20th c. Ottoman woman i was reading, one only needs to dip the end of a toothpick in it to flavor a dish for 4-6.

It isn't really sputum, since it is created in the gut. And it isn't vomit, as i've heard some people call it, even though it is often expelled through the mouth. It's waxy, and protects the whales' innards from undigestible sharp squid beaks.

BTW, the musk lifesavers worked out quite well in the cookies - i should have added more to the meat. So i recommend them to anyone who finds a recipe that includes musk and sugar.

Johnna found a place that wholesales musk flavor by the *liter* - which i could never use up, so i didn't inquire about the price. But it was in Australia, so shipping would take a long time and likely be crazy expensive, and i don't know about getting it through customs, and i don't have a wholesale license.

Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 14:22:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Donna Green <donnaegreen at yahoo.com>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Book on Ambergris

I have not yet purchased any, but I know someone who has gotten ambergris from this company http://www.ambergris.co.nz/buy.htm?and was satisfied with what they bought. 

I do plan on getting some ambergris to play with sometime ... perhaps for the sweets course of PPF3. 

Juana Isabella

Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2012 17:27:26 -0400
From: Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Book on Ambergris

My blog "Ambar gris with Lord Conway's recipe for ambergris pudding" was 
published on September 20, 2011 and can be found at: 
http://www.medievalspanishchef.com/2011/09/ambar-gris-with-lord-conways-recipe-for.html

Not only does it give the recipe but it also explains usage of it as an 
ingredient in food preparations.

Suey

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 10:34:50 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
To: SCA-Cooks <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Book on Ambergris

Daniel wrote:
<<< This links to a short article on ambergris. It is my understanding that sperm whale sputum
was occasionally used in period as a culinary ingredient. 

http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/culturelab/2012/05/why-you-really-should-have-heard-of-ambergris.html >>>

US$20/gram? Cool, i can afford that! (as if i could find it anywhere) According to the memoirs of a very wealthy 20th c. Ottoman woman i was reading, one only needs to dip the end of a toothpick in it to flavor a dish for 4-6.

It isn't really sputum, since it is created in the gut. And it isn't vomit, as i've heard some people call it, even though it is often expelled through the mouth. It's waxy, and protects the whales' innards from undigestible sharp squid beaks.

BTW, the musk lifesavers worked out quite well in the cookies - i should have added more to the meat. So i recommend them to anyone who finds a recipe that includes musk and sugar.

Johnna found a place that wholesales musk flavor by the *liter* - which i could never use up, so i didn't inquire about the price. But it was in Australia, so shipping would take a long time and likely be crazy expensive, and i don't know about getting it through customs, and i don't have a wholesale license.

Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 14:22:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Donna Green <donnaegreen at yahoo.com>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Book on Ambergris

I have not yet purchased any, but I know someone who has gotten ambergris from this company http://www.ambergris.co.nz/buy.htm?and was satisfied with what they bought. 

I do plan on getting some ambergris to play with sometime ... perhaps for the sweets course of PPF3. 

Juana Isabella

Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2012 17:27:26 -0400
From: Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Book on Ambergris

My blog "Ambar gris with Lord Conway's recipe for ambergris pudding" was 
published on September 20, 2011 and can be found at: 
http://www.medievalspanishchef.com/2011/09/ambar-gris-with-lord-conways-recipe-for.html

Not only does it give the recipe but it also explains usage of it as an 
ingredient in food preparations.

Suey

From: Daniel And elizabeth phelps  <dephelps at embarqmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Ambergris
Date: March 14, 2018 at 1:59:52 PM CDT
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Karen Hess in her definitive book regarding Martha Washington's Booke of Cookery states that "The use of musk and ambergris was another characteristic of the sixteenth and seventeenth-century cooking,...."  She further states that she feels "...that its use had become archaic by 1600...".  The Booke of Cookery in recipe 110 calls for it or musk.  The Booke of Sweetmeats, part of the two book set calls for it or musk in recipes 20 and 27.  There are also recipes for its use in perfumes. The problem with MW's book is that while is a transcription of two book handed down to her dating the individual recipes is perhaps somewhat problematic.  

Daniel

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Ambergris
Date: March 14, 2018 at 2:05:20 PM CDT
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Mar 14, 2018, at 2:28 PM, David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com> wrote:
<<< According to the article, its use in cooking started after the end of SCA period. >>?

A quick search in medieval cookery.com finds this

This is an excerpt from The Good Housewife's Jewell
(England, 1596)
The original source can be found at MedievalCookery.com <http://www.medievalcookery.com/notes/ghj1596.txt>
To make Manus Christi. Take sixe spoonefull of Rosewater, and graines of Ambergreece, and 4. grains of Pearle beaten very fine, put these three together in a Saucer and couer it close, and let it stande couered one houre, then take foure ounces of very fine Suger, and beat it small, and search it through a fine search, then take a little earthen pot glased, and put into it a spoonefull of Suger, and a quarter of spoonefull of Rosewater, and let the Suger and the Rosewater boyle together softelye, till it doe rise and fall againe three times. Then take fine Rie flowre, and sifte on a smooth borde, and with a spoone take of the Suger, and the Rosewater, and first make it all into a rounde cake, and then after into little Cakes, and when they be halfe colde, wet them ouer with the same Rosewater, and then laye on your golde, and so shall you make very good Manus Christi.

Johnnae

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Ambergris
Date: March 14, 2018 at 2:42:17 PM CDT
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

A book on the topic is 
Floating Gold: A Natural (and Unnatural) History of Ambergris, published 2012,
It’s by Christopher Kemp <https://www.amazon.com/Christopher-Kemp/e/B005XKN04K/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1>. It can be searched on Amazon.

Johnnae

From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcarrollmann at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Ambergris
Date: March 14, 2018 at 1:38:52 PM CDT
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

This article mentions some earlier uses in India and Persia:
http://www.manuscriptcookbookssurvey.com/ambergris-the-perfume-of-whales-that-once-scented-foods/

Robin/Brighid

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 2:28 PM, David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
wrote:
<<< According to the article, its use in cooking started after the end of SCA
period.

Anyone here know of earlier evidence? >>>

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Ambergris
Date: March 14, 2018 at 2:51:24 PM CDT
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I would suspect the reason there are no period recipes is due to the rarity of the ambergris.  It primarily comes from southern oceans, so its appearance in Europe was uncommon until the 16th Century or later.  However, ambergris is referenced in medical texts from the period.  For example, it is an ingredient in a recipe from the Antidotarium magnum from the 12th Century (there is an academic translation project underway).  The earliest culinary reference I've found is in Milton's Paradise Regained. 17th Century (in a floating annotation of all places).

For a historical view, you might try Dannenfeldt, Karl H., Ambergris:  The Search For It's Origin. https://www.jstor.org/stable/231442?mag=what-is-ambergris-and-where-does-it-come-from

A Taste of Edible Feces (a Smithsonian article) notes the Milton reference and a book by Christopher Kemp, Floating Gold:  A Natural (and Unnatural) History of Ambergris.

Bear

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Ambergris
Date: March 14, 2018 at 6:47:59 PM CDT
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Finally had a few minutes to run this through a few databases.

OED lists the following quotations from printed sources from before 1600:

1481–90    Howard Househ. Bks. <> (1841) 202   Imber-gres j. lb. price xij. d.
1541    T. Elyot Castel of Helthe <> (new ed.) 68   Confortatives of the Harte hotte..Ambergrise, etc.
1542    A. Borde Compend. Regyment Helth <> (1870) viii. 249   Perfumed with amber-degrece.
1576    G. Baker tr. C. Gesner Newe Jewell of Health <>  ii. f. 85   Adde both Muske and Amber greece.

A quick search in EEBO turns up the following recipe for 

Damaske parfume.
TAke fyne Muske foure gaynes, Cyuet two gray∣nes,  <>Ambergris, fine Sugre, of eche of them foure graynes, Bengewine a grayne, of fatte Storax ca∣lamita three graines, lignum Aloes twoo graines: beate them well into poulder, and putte all together in a litle parfuminge panne, powre into it as muche Rose wa∣ter, or the water of the flowres of Orenges, Citrons, and Lemons, all together, as will bee twoo fingers highe aboue the other drooges, in makinge vnder it a small fier that it maye not boyle, and when the water is consumed, you shall powre in other: and hauing con∣tinued thus doinge a certaine number of daies, you shall haue an excellent Sope. From The secretes of the reuerende Maister Alexis of Piemount 1558

A composition of Muske, Ciuet, and Ambergrise.
TAke a dragme and a half of good Amber, and bray it vppon a Porphyre stone with oyle of Iasemin, fyrst alone, and than a litle with Muske, as much as shall suffise. This doen, adde to it Damaske roses, and Bengewin, of ethe of them an vnce, Irios a dragme and a halfe: All these thinges beaten in poulder, and strayned or syfted, you shall braye with a dragme of Ci∣uette, vntil they be brought into the fourme and maner of an oynctment. This done, kepe it in a Horne, or ves∣sell of glasse well closed. From The secretes of the reuerende Maister Alexis of Piemount 1558

And it also appears in recipes there for sweet waters, powders, and licors.

To hit the mother load of mentions, one can run a proximity search under amber* and musk* since the two often appear together. Ambergris appears under a variety of spellings, ranging from ambergreece to amber-greace to just plain amber. There are 470 plus entries there. Among those mentions---

It actually turns up as amber grease or amber greace in several recipes for perfuming pomanders or gloves in the 1573 The Treasurie of commodious Conceits. 

Plat’s Delightes includes it—
6. Rosa-solis.

TAke of the hearbe Rosa-solis, gathered in Iuly one gallon,
pick out all the black moats from the leaues, dates halfe a pounde, Cinamon, Ginger, cloues, of each one ounce, graines half an ounce, fine sugar a pound and a halfe, red rose leaues, greene or dryed foure handfuls, steepe all these in a gal∣lon of good Aqua Composita in a glasse close stopped with waxe, during twentie daies, shake it wel together once euerie two daies. Your sugar must be powdred, your spices brused onely, or grosselie beaten, your dates cut in long sli∣ces the stones taken awaie. If you adde two or three graines of Amber greece, and as much muske in your glasse amongst the rest of the ingredientes, it will haue a pleasant smel. Some adde the gum amber with coral and pearl finely poudred, and fine leafe golde. Some vse to boyle Ferdinando bucke in Rosewater, till they haue purchased a faire deepe crimson colour, and when the same is cold, they colour their Rosa-solis and Aqua Rube a therewith.

It was seemingly very popular in the Restoration. 
From the 1664 The Court & kitchin of Elizabeth, commonly called Joan Cromwel, the Marrow puddings call for "two grains of Ambergris”.

Digby’s Choice and experimented receipts in physick and chirurgery as also cordial and distilled waters and spirits, perfumes, and other curiosities from 1675 calls for it some 30 times.

And lastly since I have gone along into the Restoration, there’s this post

http://www.fourpoundsflour.com/the-history-dish-i-made-ambergris-ice-cream/ <http://www.fourpoundsflour.com/the-history-dish-i-made-ambergris-ice-cream/>. Which is based upon an early ice cream recipe that Ivan Day located.

http://foodhistorjottings.blogspot.com/2012/04/lady-anne-fanshawes-icy-cream.html

See also :  http://www.fourpoundsflour.com/origin-of-a-dish-vanilla-ice-cream/ <http://www.fourpoundsflour.com/origin-of-a-dish-vanilla-ice-cream/>

Johnnae

From the fb "SCA Cooks" group:

Urtatim Al-Qurtubiyya
3/27/18
Relevant to some other posts which I think were in this group, the Kanz al-Fawa'id has about 6 recipes that use ambergris - 4 of which are incenses. It is also used in a juwārish (stomachic) and an electuary, which are eaten.

Urtatim Al-Qurtubiyya 
The index is incomplete. I just found ambergris used in a recipe for pickled gourd.

Michelle Fiondel Heitman
 Now...THAT sounds tasty!

Urtatim Al-Qurtubiyya
 P. 371, recipe 599.

Urtatim Al-Qurtubiyya 
This is Nawal Nasrallah's recently published translation, "Treasure Trove of Benefits and Variety at the Table"
ISBN 978-90-04-34729-8

<the end>