bathing-msg - 5/21/11

Bathing and cleanliness in the Middle Ages.

NOTE: See also the files: p-hygiene-msg, perfumes-msg, prostitution-msg, cosmetics-msg, hair-msg, p-dental-care-msg, soap-msg, handcream-msg.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I  have done  a limited amount  of  editing. Messages having to do  with separate topics  were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the  message IDs  were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make  no claims  as  to the accuracy  of  the information  given  by the individual authors.

Please  respect the time  and  efforts of  those who have written  these messages. The  copyright status  of these messages  is  unclear  at this time. If  information  is  published  from  these  messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: shelanst at neonramp.com (Tracy Shelanskey)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: "Authentic" in SCA parlance
Date: 21 Feb 1996 18:19:01 GMT

In article <4ge4l1$lb6 at texas.nwlink.com>, masters at nwlink.com says...
>And look at all the things which SCAfolk (even the "correct" ones) do all 
>the time which are NOT "correct."  Scribes hand write and draw documents, 
>but do they use parchement, vellum, or hand-made paper?  Do they make 
>their own inks and quills?  Bards play guitars, with metal frets and 
>strings (the nearest historical equivallent is the spanish vhuela, with 
>gut strings and gut frets).  Folks wear costumes of modern stuff, carry 
>steel instead of iron or damascened swords, portray themselves as 
>litterate when most should not be, and some even take baths.  "Correct?"
>
>                - Warren of the Just Plain
>                  Who would Never offend historical sensibilities
>                  by taking an un-period bath!

Just a note-- periodness varies greatly depending on *where* and *when* your 
persona is.   As a Rus I would have bathed fairly often (by medieval standards, 
anyway.)  The Rus had large public baths similar to the Romans.  I've read 
(though at the moment I can't cite the source) that very wealthy boyars, and certainly the prince, had a private bath in the home--the family would bath together.  

Would this leave one as clean as we expect by todays standards?  I doubt it, but it's still a bath   ; )

Tatjana Nikonovna

From: nqf2312 at is2.nyu.edu (Norman J. Finkelshteyn)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: "Authentic" in SCA parlance
Date: 22 Feb 1996 00:38:39 GMT
Organization: New York University

Just a small nit to pick, so to speak.

Tracy Shelanskey (shelanst at neonramp.com) wrote:

: Just a note-- periodness varies greatly depending on *where* and *when* your 
: persona is.   As a Rus I would have bathed fairly often (by medieval 
: standards, anyway.)  The Rus had large public baths similar to the Romans.

The Rus bathes were not like those of the Romans. They are similar to the 
Russian baths of today. And they got just as perplexed a reaction from 
foreigners then as they do today.
The Russian Primary Chronicle (I think that's the book's English name) 
reports that, when St. God-Knows-Who returned from Russia to Greece he 
said (I'm paraphrasing) "These people are realy weird, they go into a hot 
building filled with steam and beat themselves with branches. And this is 
not a pennance, they do this for pleasure!"

Nahum ha Kuzar

From: shelanst at neonramp.com (Tracy Shelanskey)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: "Authentic" in SCA parlance
Date: 22 Feb 1996 15:24:43 GMT
Organization: Here Be Dragons

In article <4ggduf$qel at cmcl2.NYU.EDU>, nqf2312 at is2.nyu.edu says...
>
>The Rus bathes were not like those of the Romans. They are similar to the 
>Russian baths of today. And they got just as perplexed a reaction from 
>foreigners then as they do today.
>The Russian Primary Chronicle (I think that's the book's English name) 
>reports that, when St. God-Knows-Who returned from Russia to Greece he 
>said (I'm paraphrasing) "These people are realy weird, they go into a hot 
>building filled with steam and beat themselves with branches. And this is 
>not a pennance, they do this for pleasure!"
>
>Nahum ha Kuzar

Yes, after I wrote the first, I decided I really should have looked it up first.  I went to my books and discoved my error.  Steam baths were common.  Kiev had a roman type bath built in 1090 by a Greek  named Efram of Pereiaslav (he was actually a bishop.)  It was a first in Russia.  It is not mentioned anywhere else that I could find, so it seems not to have caught on much.

That will teach me to look before I write!

Tatjana

From: nqf2312 at is2.nyu.edu (Norman J. Finkelshteyn)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: "Authentic" in SCA parlance
Date: 27 Feb 1996 20:23:37 GMT
Organization: New York University

IVANOR at delphi.com wrote:

: Quoting nqf2312 from a message in rec.org.sca
:    >the Russian baths of today. And they got just as perplexed a reaction
:    >from foreigners then as they do today.
:    >The Russian Primary Chronicle (I think that's the book's English name)
:    >reports that, when St. God-Knows-Who returned from Russia to Greece he
:    >said (I'm paraphrasing) "These people are realy weird, they go into a
:    >hot building filled with steam and beat themselves with branches. And
:    >this is not a pennance, they do this for pleasure!"
:    >Nahum ha Kuzar

: Sounds like a sauna to me....

Well, the "really weird" part (and the part that makes for a proper 
Russian bath) is that one gets one's friends to beat him with a broom of 
leafy branches constructed specifically for the purpose.
Otherwise, it is a sauna (the Roman bath, however, was a much more 
complicated affair - with hot, cold, and warm/ dry and wet rooms and 
lockers)

Nahum

From: nancyl at universe.digex.net (Nancy Lebovitz)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: baths, was Re: "Authentic" in SCA parlance
Date: 7 Mar 1996 12:20:57 -0500
Organization: Universal Access by Digital Express. 800-969-9090

In article <nostrand-0303961536210001 at moe10.slip.yorku.ca>,
Barbara Nostrand <nostrand at mathstat.yorku.ca> wrote:
>Noble Cousins!
>
>Duke Carriadoc wrote:
>
>> Except that medieval manuscripts have lots of pictures of people taking
>> baths in tubs of water.
>
>Actually it goes far far beyond this.  The Vandals were known as decadent
>because their nobles immersed themselves every day.  The churchmen of the
>middle ages were constantly writing diatribes against the public baths of
>the middle ages.  We have lots of woodcuts of people immersing themselves
>and even of mixed bathing in the buff.  Please read the volume from a
>History of Private Life which concerns the Middle Ages.  You will learn
>that far from eschewing baths, the medievals relished their baths.
>
I had a vague idea that the religious attacks on bathing were based
on bathing/cleanliness as pleasures in themselves rather than
licentiousness in the public baths. Was I at all right? 

Nancy Lebovitz  (nancyL at universe.digex.net) 

From: gileshill at aol.com (Gileshill)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Caidan Camping
Date: 23 Feb 1997 02:58:48 GMT

Natalya asked (presumably about the inhabitants of the Middle Ages and
Rennaissance):

>Didn't they have hot tubs?  Sure they did!  The Romans must have left 
>at least ONE sunken tub in England when they left....

Actually, Your Grace, recent excavations at Hampton Court (reported in the
Nat'l Geographic) found a sunken tub next to a hearth in what would have
been the privy appartments of Henry VIII Tudor, and his daughter Elizabeth
is reported to have had a bathing room at Whitehall with a mirrored
ceiling.  (Which lends credence to Magistra Astra's contention that 'just
because it's period doesn't mean it's in good taste!")

Giles

From: Rebekah and Chip <rinman at ucsd.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Caidan Camping
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 06:20:35 -0800
Organization: University of California, San Diego

It seems as though Natalya may have opined:

> (Didn't
> they have hot tubs?  Sure they did!  The Romans must have left at least
>ONE sunken tub in England when they left....)

I will note at this point that one of the items deemed so necessary that 
it made its way onto the packing list of what a byzantine emperor should 
take on campaign with him was...

        A Turkish bath, called in Scythian _tzerga_, with a hide
        cistern of red leather; 12 three-measure pitchers; 12 grates
        for the bath (pp 105-7)<see note>

and also, BTW,

        chairs for the chamber-pot, of metal gilded with beaten
        gold, with covers, and with other covers above concealing
        the space for the latrine; and for the distinguished refugees
        two other, similar, seats, bound in silver; (p 109) <see note>

The above from a charming set of treatises written by Constantine VII 
Porphyrogenitus to his son, telling him how to conduct a military 
campaign in standard, byzantine fashion (i.e. in the lap of luxury).
You should read about the dinner table: lamb, veal, lobster and other 
shell-fish...

Chip

<note>  _Constantine Porphyrogenitus: Three Treatises on Imperial
        Military Epeditions_ (Wien, 1990), ed. trans. and notes by
        John F. Haldon

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:11:11 -0600
From: mfgunter at tddeng00.fnts.com (Michael F. Gunter)
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
Subject: ANST - Bathing

> The bathing thing does seen to come up quite often..especially right after
> the tourney is over! <grin>  My reading does seem to indicate that the at
> least the Northern groups, i.e. Norway, etc.  were fond of a daily dousing
> and combing of the hair.  Seems kind of odd, considering the water
> temperature up there.  So, go figure!
> Ulrica

There's also the fact that they enjoyed steambaths which actually clense fairly
well. Once sweated out they would pour cold water over themselves, jump in a
nearby lake or handy snowbank. Very refreshing!  But it did serve to get a lot
of the oils and dirt off.

There were also washing bags that were moderately common. Bags filled with
oatmeal and sometimes dried flowers. The oatmeal is a natural cleanser and
skin softener.  Dipped in water and lathed on the body it cleans fairly well
without the need for the full bath.

Gunthar

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:06:32 -0600
From: mfgunter at tddeng00.fnts.com (Michael F. Gunter)
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
Subject: Re: ANST - Bathing

> >Gunthar
> >
> >BTW. I have used the washing bags and a pan of water for a quick 
> >sponge bath and I really did feel and smell much better.
> 
> Could I trouble you for the reciepe?  They sound very handy....
> 
> Kateryn Heathrydge
> Three Rivers, Calontir

The "recipe" for this is really quite simple. Take three parts good oatmeal,
real oatmeal not quick oats to one part organic dried flowers of your choice.
Mix them together and sew them in a bag of a soft, open weave type cloth.
Linen is a nice choice.

To use, just dip the bag in water and lathe over the skin. When you are finished
hang the bag (it's a good idea to sew ribbons or such on the bag for this 
purpose) and massage it occasionally to make sure the insides get dried out.

You can also hang these under your tap for a nice bath. They are also fairly
good air fresheners.

I think you will like them.

Gunthar

Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:27:59 -0700 (MST)
From: Mary Morman <memorman at oldcolo.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Viking and early Irish foods

On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Par Leijonhuvud wrote:
> One potential source that I haven't seen anything on is what was
> recorded regarding the customs of the Scandinavians while traveling and
> living in the east. Anyone know if this has been explored at all? It
> should be easier nowadays, when the "slavs and only slavs" doctrine is
> less prevalent over there.
>
> /UlfR

Only comment on the Vikings Away From Home that I remember is a Byzantine
one saying that they didn't wash - even after sex!  Those effete Greeks...

Elaina

Subject: Re: Period bathing info
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 14:45:17 SAST-2
From: "Ian van Tets" <IVANTETS at botzoo.uct.ac.za>
To: Stefan li Rous <stefan at texas.net>

Cairistiona, by the grace of God wife to Jan van Zeist and citizen of
the fair Shire (no longer incipient!!) of Adamestor, to Lord (?)
Stefan li Rous, keeper of the Florilegium, doth send greeting.

> Yes, I would love to get this description of the bath. Both for my
> own interest and for the Florilegium. I have very few period examples
> of bathing. This sounds wonderful.

Herewith the original:

De balneis.

155     It is not strange, if water wol suffice,
        An husbonde on his baathe to bethought;
        For therof may plesaunce and helthe aryse.
        Towarde the sonne on drie it must be wrought,
        Southwest and southe the sonnes ynne be brought,
        That alle the day it may be warme and light;
        The celles suspensures thus thou dight:

156     First floore it II foote thicke, enclyninge softe
        The forneis warde, so that the flamme upbende
        The celles forto chere and chaufe olofte;
        And piles maade of tiles must ascende
        Two foote and half, and two foote wide attende
        Hem forto sette, and upon hem thou sprede
        A marble floor, or tyle it yit for nede.

157     A myliair of lede, the bothom brasse
        Anende the feetes sette it so withoute
        The fourneis, and the fire ther undre passe.
        A conduite cold into it bringe aboute,
        Make pipes water warme inwarde to spoute,
        The celles square oblonge as X in brede,
        As for XV in length is oute to sprede.

158     For hete in streite is gretter then in large;
        But seetes make yfourmed as the list.
        The somer celles light thou enlarge
        Upon the north, but winter celles wist
        From north;  the southern light is best, as wist
        Is well;  and all the wesshe out of thi bathes
        The garden thorowe to go therto no scathe is.

159     The chambres in the bathes may be wrought
        As cisterne is, but wol be well the stronger,
        And other waies fele, yf thai besought,
        As clene as it, but thai be yit unstronger.
        Thi winter hous to sette eke studie lenger
        Uppon thi bathe;  for lo the groundes made,
        And hete of it thi winter house wol glade.

De malthis calidariis vel frigidariis

160     Convenient it is to knowe, of bathes
        While speche is made, what malthes hoote and colde
        Are able, ther as chynyng clifte or scathe is
        To make it hoole, and water well to holde.
        For bathes hoote ammonyake is tolde
        Right goode with brymstone resolute ypitte
        Aboute in evry chynyng, clifte, or slitte.

161     Or thus:  hardde pitche, and wex, take even weight,
        And herdde with pix liquide herto eche
        An halvendele, and grounden shelles dight
        With flour of lyme:  al thees comixt wol deche
        Every defaute, and all the woundes leche.
        While wex, hardde, pitch, remysse ammonyake,
        Thees three comixt therfore is good to take.

162     Or thus:  ammonyak remysse, and figges
        With pix liquide and herdde sore ygrounde
        To cleme upon right suffisianntly bigg is;
        Or flour of lyme in oil, yf thou confounde
        And helde it in, upheleth it by grounde,
        But kepe it drie awhile, eke boles blode
        With oil and floure of lyme admyxt is goode.

163     Eke oister shelles drie and alle to grounde
        With harde pitche and with fygges doth the same;
        But malthes colde in other crafte thou founde,
        Ox bloode with pitche and synder alle to frame,
        And make it like a salve, and overflame
        Iche hoole and chene, or siften askes clene
        And sevum molton helde in evry chene.

Editor's comments:
156:  forneis = furnace;  piles = pillars;
157:  myliair = miliarium, which supplies the bath with hot and cold
water.
158:  streite = narrowness
159:  winter hous = room or canopy to keep heat inside in winter
160:  malthe = cement for repair;  brymstone resolute = dissolved
brimstone (sulphur?) - mix with ammoniac to repair hot baths.
161:  herdde = tow;  remysse ammonyake = powdered ammoniac.
162:  figges = yes, figs!;  boles bloode = bulls'/bullocks' blood
163:  synder = cinders;  overflame = (apparently) smear;  sevum
molton = melted tallow.  These last 5 lines are cements for the cold
baths only.

Palladius on Husbandrie
tr anonymously in about 1420.  MS held at time of publication (ie.
1873) in Colchester Castle.  Ed. by Revd. Barton Lodge, published by
Early English Text Society.

This is from book 1 (of 14).

Palladius Rutilius Taurus AEmilianus, wrote apparently particularly
for husbandry in Italy (but not exclusively), about the time of
Theodosius (4th Cent AD).

*************************************
Cairistiona nic Bhraonnaguinn
Christina van Tets

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 19:45:46 -0400
From: "Alderton, Philippa" <phlip at morganco.net>
Subject: SC - CA 13- Dining in the tub.

This is from CA
13, page 10, above a picture of a lady and a gentleman playing in a large
tub, with two more ladies bringing in a ewer and a plate.

" The Crusades, along with their many other influences, brought back to
Europe a practice that certainly influenced the appearance of nudes in art:
public baths. European baths started before 1100 and were initially
segregated, but not for long. By the 13th century in England baths and
brothels were interchangeably called "stewes". The baths were a constant
target of moral reformers, and were sporadically banned altogether, or at
least segregated again. These interludes of decency do not appear to have
ever lasted very long. Tubs sized for two people seem to have been the rule.
Aside from providing a subject featuring nudes, baths provided a source of
figure studies for artists."

And that's it, in CA 13.

Phlip

Philippa Farrour
Caer Frig
Southeastern Ohio

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 17:05:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Laura C Minnick <lainie at gladstone.uoregon.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - CA 13- Dining in the tub.

On Sun, 18 Jul 1999, Alderton, Philippa wrote:
> " The Crusades, along with their many other influences, brought back to
> Europe a practice that certainly influenced the appearance of nudes in art:
> public baths.

Interesting idea, but the CA authors missed a few things here and there
(for the which I am willing to forgive them- #13 was written a long time
ago). Public baths far predate the Crusades- after all, the Romans built a
great deal of them, all over Europe. There was even a public bath at the
trading center at Londinium. Many of the Roman baths were in use up to and
through the Middle Ages. A Roman bath at Aachen was converted to a bath by
Charlemagne, for the Emperor's personal use.

Also (I might be wrong about this, but...) it is my suspicion from my
understanding of Saracen culture that they did not approve of mixed
bathing, as it would be quite shameful for the sexes to be publicly naked
in that manner, and that they looked down on those barbarian Westerners
for doing so.

As to artists- it is my understanding that working from a live model was
rare, even more so a nude one. I suspect that any sudden interest in
drawing/painting nudes had less to do with baths and more to do with
renewed interest in the Greek ideals of art and beauty.

Just my two deniers...

'Lainie
- -
Laura C. Minnick

On Mar 23, 8:19 pm, storey2617hi... at comcast.net (JJS) wrote:
> > IMO, situation with the rural bathing varied from place to place. For
> > example, in Russia and Scandinavia the bathing houses were a common
> > place. In the rural Russia peasants quite often had their own 'bania'
> > and weekly bathing was considered a religious duty. Situation in the
> > cities could be worse not better.
>
> From History of Russian Bath
>
> “Going to bania is a very old Russian custom. From medieval times it
> was popularly seen as a national institution, and not to bathe in one
> at least three times a week was practically taken as a proof of foreign
> origins.
>
> Most villagers in Russia had a bathhouse, usually some way off from
> the rest of the houses in the village, where possible near water. The
> bathhouse had its own resident sprite, the bannik, the most hostile of
> the Russian domestic goblins, and was not a place to visit alone. The
> bannik was envisaged as a naked dwarf or a little old man. The proper
> time for people to use it was the five or seven hours before the midday.

IIRC, a 'normal' bathtime was before holyday's midday church service
so that people would go to the church clean.

> Only three or two bathing sessions were safe, after that it was Devil's
> turn and no peasant would go in after the third session or after the
> sundown. A site of former bathhouse was considered to be unclean, even
> evil and new houses were not built there.”
>
> Seems strange that the bathhouse had a hostile goblin and was considered
> so unsafe but was still used as often as it was.
>
> Joe- 

Well, every house had its own goblin, domovoy, who also was not a very
pleasant creature and could even arrange for a slow death of an
offending or simply disrespectful person. However, people lived in the
houses 24x7. AFAIK, most if not all creatures of the Russian folklore
were, to the various degrees, unpleasant and dangerous: rusalka
(mermaid) in the river, leshii and baba-yaga in the forest, kikimora
in the swamp, etc. People had been afraid of them but had to live
somehow.  :-)

From: "Peter Jason" <pj at jostle.com>
Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Bathing and cleanliness in medieval ages
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 08:55:03 +1000

These's a wonder medieval painting on this 
subject related (I suppose) to the "Roman de 
la Rose" thing, and pictures a curious mix of 
fashion and bathing.

Of course I've forgotten the name of it.

Anyway, the people present are dressed in the 
fashion of about 1470 with tall hats and 
voluminous dresses, all affecting 
aristocratic poses.  To the left of the 
picture is a room containing solely a tub of 
water in which a fully-dressed lady is 
immersed, and she just sits there.

To the right of the picture, in the next 
room, a young man gazes at this lady through 
a hole in a wall, and this peeping-tom 
pervert is indecently dressed in hose too 
tight to be believed.     Further to the 
right in the picture are various people 
coming & going, talking to each other and 
probably arranging assignations.

One wonders if bath houses doubled as fetish 
brothels in the middle ages!  Please let me 
know if you discover more about this.

Date: Sat, 02 May 2009 14:00:59 +0000
From: t.d.decker at att.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Spices: a thought and a question
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

-------------- Original message from "Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps" <dephelps at embarqmail.com>: -------------- 
<<< A further question on bathing. It is my understanding that in certain 
locales people were afraid to bath lest they be suspected of being either 
secret Jews or Moslems. Does anyone know if this is likely ture or false? 

Daniel >>>

This has a very good chance of being true.  Moslems are required to bathe the entire body once a week (Friday before congregational prayers is suggested).  Jews use a total immersion bath (mikvah) for ritual purity.  Bathing in Inquisition Spain could have been hazardous to your health, as I believe is mentioned in A Drizzle of Honey.

Bear

Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 14:04:22 +0000 (GMT)
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Spices: a thought and a question
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

--- Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps <dephelps at embarqmail.com> schrieb am Sa, 2.5.2009:
<<< A further question on bathing. 
It is my understanding that in certain locales people were
afraid to bath lest they be suspected of being either secret
Jews or Moslems.   Does anyone know if this
is likely ture or false? >>>

It's probably a mixture of true and false. There is good reason to think that this was an issue in post-Reconquista Spain and Portugal, and possibly in Anjou Sicily (though I have not found any literature on the inquisition there, just that they, too, expelled or forcibly converted the Muslim population). The Spanish inquisition was extremely worried about false converts and alongside kosher/halal eating, the use of ritual washing (five times a day for Muslims) or baths (the mikve for Jews) would have been one of those "signs your neighbour may be one of Them". I don't have it here, but I recall reading that there were quite a few people who made it their business to watch and report their neighbours' dietary habits, Saturday work schedule, and other such things. 

At the same time it is probably an overstatement. We know that medieval people enjoyed being clean. Handwashing is mentioned in pretty much every manners book I've come across, Trotula writes about steam baths in detail, and On the Puteolan Baths was copied again and again over centuries as a relevant text (though some of the illustrations are pretty fanciful - I suspect because washing in a Medirterranean climate needs less technology than it does in the typical northern estuve we are so familiar with). Given the Lateran Council thought it scandalous how Jews and Muslims were indistinguishable from Christians in everyday life, I can't see any good evidence for a great gap in personal hygiene. It is possible that this emerged in the centuries up to 1492, but I doubt it. 

Of course it could have become something of a cultural identity meme: "Jews and Muslims always wash, they're weird that way. Good Christians don't overdo it." I rather suspect that it is a case of willful misinterpretation.  Historians of the past were delighted with any shred of evidence for how medieval people stank. 

Date: Sat, 02 May 2009 16:30:18 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Spices: a thought and a question
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I suspect the book to look at would be
C. M. Woolgar's The Senses in Late Medieval England.
Otherwise it would of course be possible to run "smell" though
EEBO-TCP and see what sources say.
If I weren't worn out from being at Science Olympiad State finals today,
I'd dig Woolgar out and see what he says in the chapter on smell and in 
the footnotes..

Johnnae

James Prescott wrote:
<<< Might a small, but not negligible, contributing factor towards
the period consumption of spices have been to mask, while eating
a meal, the smell of *humans* and their habitations?

Has this question been discussed? >>>

Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 18:03:25 -0500
From: "otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Bathing - was Spices in meals: a thought and
	a	question
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Many cultures took baths. The style varied. The purpose of bath houses
varied as well.
http://www.gallowglass.org/jadwiga/pictures/bohemia/bathkeepers.html
http://racer.kb.nl/pregvn/MIMI/MIMI_76F21/MIMI_76F21_015R.JPG

http://liberfloridus.cines.fr/cgi-bin/affich_image?028672,d,78907,YuCfxP0802
052,11,1,3,4

http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/ConsulterElementNum?O=IFN-08101695&E=JPEG&Deb=87&F
in=87&Param=C

http://racer.kb.nl/pregvn/MIMI/MIMI_MMW_10A11/MIMI_MMW_10A11_069V_MIN_1.JPG

http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/m/memling/3mature2/25nobath.html

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:De_St%C3%A4nde_1568_Amman_059.png

http://www.kamat.com/kalranga/ancient/bathing/21508.htm

-----Original Message-----
While total body immersion bathing was likely not done on purpose (falling
into the pond would COULD be considered bathing by accident  I suppose),
people did take the equivilent of what my grandmother called a 'whore's
bath'; washing with a cloth and water.  The water used for bathing was
scented, which would make your neighbor more pleasant to be closer than 20
ft away from.  The idea that people were dirty and stinky is just NOT
accurate.

Malkin

Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 19:33:59 GMT
From: "morgana.abbey at juno.com" <morgana.abbey at juno.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Spices in meals: a thought and a question
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

This has brought back a memory of a conversation of several years ago.  The subject was, of course, the old saw about not bathing.  We had all compared notes and noticed that the only references that we had were the same:  Some courtier or other high-ranking (no pun, really) person saying "we don't labor, therefore we don't need to bathe."
This must mean that peasants were bathing.  Which we all agreed made sense.  Ever try to sleep with dirt and sweat caked to your skin?  Sure they used a basin instead of a tub, but they washed off the crud. And we noticed that those few references that we'd all found were confined to a few points in time, not "industry-standard."

Anyone else notice this, or was it a cosmic anomaly?

Morgana

prescotj at telusplanet.net writes:
<<< If you  can smell your neighbours' armpits at 20 feet, can you only
stomach that  lovely slice of venison if it is smothered in a very
aromatic and spicy  sauce? >>>

Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 19:03:37 -0400
From: Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Spices in meals: a thought and a question
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Brangwayna Morgan wrote:
<<< My thought on this is, WE think that smelly people are disgusting and don't want to eat around them, but that's because it's unusual for us to smell other's  body odor to that degree.  In the unwashed, smelly society you are suggesting, such a smell would be perfectly normal and probably not viewed as so  unusually noxious as to prevent being able to eat. >>>

I do not think that necessarily true. I find Portuguese smell different 
from Spaniards because their olive oil smells different. Latins may 
think that northerners stink cause they eat lard. I am not talking about 
unwashed society but what societies eat and body smells produced because 
of it.  Different parts of Morocco are also another experience as is 
Mexico etc. Once my father had to take the metro in Madrid and came out 
saying all Madrilenos eat garlic. We never let him take the metro again!

Suey

Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 08:46:57 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Smell according to Woolgar was Spices: a
	thought and a question
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

James Prescott wrote:
<<< Might a small, but not negligible, contributing factor towards
the period consumption of spices have been to mask, while eating
a meal, the smell of *humans* and their habitations?
Has this question been discussed? >>>

As I suggested late on Saturday, C. M. Woolgar's The Senses in Late  Medieval England is probably a good starting point. Chapter 7 of the book is devoted to  "Smell", pages 117-146. Briefly to summarize the chapter starts with mentioning smells cannot be  stored of course so we are dependent on the descriptive language of the age for attempting to  understand smells. This is a rather complicated business for the medieval period because humoral theory plays its part. (Smells might cool or heat the  body.) Woolgar notes "men with a predominance of melancholy or of evil complexion avoided what smelled  good and associated with places that smelled bad - 'loveth stynkeng place' - as did those who  could not smell or who smelled bad themselves, such as lepers, who fitted both categories." There's a  strong spiritual dimension here. Descriptions abound that when holy men or women died, oftentimes  suddenly pleasant and good smells suddenly appeared at the time of death. Opening a  saint's tomb would release the scents of heaven ("Sweetness of the air of heaven" or pleasant  odors. Visions of Saints were accompanied also by pleasant smells. The Church also employed incense as  "symbolic for prayers." "Fragant flowers and odours were generally accepted as signs of virtue  and grace, sometimes considered a foretatse of Paradise."

Bad smells were associated with evil, Hell, and the Devil. Hell reeks of  corruption. A 'stinking' describes those whose activities might be hypocritical or nefarious. It was also a  term of abuse and people objected mightily if they were called 'stinking.' Eating onions, leeks,  and garlic were at various times as mentioned as marking bad things and even bad habits. Bad breath might  also might irritate a wound. Physicians were cautioned by John Arderne (1307 ? 1392) to avoid  menstruating women because their breath irritated wounds. Likewise, physicians shouldn't sleep with  a menstruating woman or eat garlic or onions. Anyone that sinned might also acquire a stench.  (Prostitutes and old and ugly women were associated with bad smells.) Some sins/stenches might be erased through the washing of baptism. There was also the widely spread belief that disease might well come  from bad air or miasma. Standing pools of water were seen as corrupt, dangerous, and even deadly. Bad air might lead to the spontaneous generation of flies and spiders. Areas around slaughterhouses, tanneries, and the workplaces of the  fullers were noxious. Certain professions were also noxious; these included cess pit cleaning,  latrine and street cleaners. Lepers were, of course, excluded in part because "their dreadful stench  marking them as spiritually deficient as well as physically afflicted." Being so afflicted, lepers  could be safely given bad foods, including measled or bad meat.

Woolgar mentions the association of carnal pleasure with the dimension  of smells and notes "monks were urged to confess both their delight in smells, such as the good-smelling  herbs they might spread in places where they wanted to sleep, or the smell of spices, sauces and foods, such as  meat cooking, which might provoke a desire for a more luxurious diet: and, at the same time, their  unreasonable turning away from bad smells, those of disease or the sickness of one of their  colleagues." (page 126)

Woolgar mentions the role of perfumes, pomanders, fumigation, flowers,  gardens, and the role of washing. One washed because it was gentile to wash. One washed at the start of the day and  before meals. (Washing hair might be seen as a vanity, especially if done on a Sunday when it might lead to madness.)

But in the end the chapter does not associate the eating of spices to mask the odors of dining companions.

Johnnae llyn Lewis

Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 09:23:44 -0500 (CDT)
From: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Spices in meals: a thought and a question
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< If you can smell your neighbours' armpits at 20 feet, can you only
stomach that lovely slice of venison if it is smothered in a very
aromatic and spicy sauce? >>>

Since underarm deodorant wasn't manufactured until the 20th century, and
daily immersion bathing wasn't practiced until well into the 20th century,
one can safely assume that there's nothing specifically *more* stinky
about the pre-seventeenth century as opposed to the nineteenth century
(whose food was notoriously bland).

Now, the late 16th and early seventeenth century, when massive personal
and room scenting with distinctive items like musk, civet, ambergris, and
lavender (as well as lots of rose) *might* have required more spices for
the user to NOTICE them; but the cookbooks of the time don't actually
reflect this as far as I can tell.

As for the mid-to-late seventeenth century and early 18th century (where
upper class people paranoid about plagues were urged to 'wash' only by
wiping themselves down with DRY linen and changing their undergarments,
that'd be even stinkier than our period of study.
-- 
-- Jenne Heise / Jadwiga Zajaczkowa

Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 09:26:17 -0500 (CDT)
From: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Bathing - was Spices in meals: a thought and
	a question
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Total immersion bathing was in fact practiced by those who could afford
it; since major cities had bathhouses with tubs as well as steam baths,
immersion bathing for the poorer people would be more common in urban
settings.
-- Jadwiga, author of CA 136-137 Hygiene of the Middle Ages and Renaissance.

<<< While total body immersion bathing was likely not done on purpose (falling
into the pond would COULD be considered bathing by accident  I suppose),
people did take the equivilent of what my grandmother called a 'whore's
bath'; washing with a cloth and water.  The water used for bathing was
scented, which would make your neighbor more pleasant to be closer than 20
ft away from.  The idea that people were dirty and stinky is just NOT
accurate. >>>
-- 
-- Jenne Heise / Jadwiga Zajaczkowa

Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 09:37:04 -0500 (CDT)
From: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Spices: a thought and a question
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< A further question on bathing.  It is my understanding that in certain
locales people were afraid to bath lest they be suspected of being either
secret Jews or Moslems.   Does anyone know if this is likely true or
false? >>>

From my research, it appears the times and manners in which one bathed
might raise suspicion. Washing the hands and face before bed, or before
reading a holy book, were regarded with suspicion. Washing in the river
when there was a bathhouse available (and Spain had a lot of bathhouses;
during the Convivencia there were actual regulations separating Christian
and non-Christian bathhouses, and/or separate hours for Christians and
non-Christian in local bathhouses) was very suspicious; women who made a
point of washing in running water once a month would be considered VERY
suspicious as that is the mikvah. (If there is no 'natural water'
connection it's not a mikvah: bathing in a cistern or still pool only
counts if there's a connection to a stream, lake etc.)

I don't have my CA here at work so I can't give you the citation. If you'd
like it, I can look it up later.
-- 
-- Jenne Heise / Jadwiga Zajaczkowa

Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 15:20:35 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Foods eaten while Bathing
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< OB food content: bathing snacks! Finger foods! Has anyone ever found 
any references to what sort of snacks are appropriate for consumption 
during the bath?

Margaret FitzWilliam >>>

I suspect hypocras and wafers or wine.
There are scenes showing bathers drinking from goblets.

If you search through the catalog of medieval images at the Pierpont
Morgan Library, you can find numerous images of people bathing.
http://corsair.morganlibrary.org

One of the most popular of images is that of Bathsheba */bathing/*. MS M
0166, fol 109v shows "Bathsheba, nude, wearing fillet and necklace, with
cloth draped on her left arm and held in right hand, stands in pool at
base of fountain, with column topped by lion with water streaming from
its mouth. Two maidservants, wearing headdresses, one holding mirror and
the other kneeling and holding bowl of fruit (?), stand beside pool."
Fruit looks like either strawberries or cherries. Red small fruits anyway

Call Number: 	MS M.0166, fol. 109v
Record ID: 	273290
Name: 	Pierpont Morgan Library. Manuscript. M.166.

Johnnae

<the end>