beds-msg - 2/20/08

Medieval and SCA beds. Rope and slat beds. Various mattresses.

NOTE: See also the files: brooms-msg, furniture-msg, chairs-msg, decor-sources-msg, candles-msg, candlesticks-msg.

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                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: bdorion at sciborg.uwaterloo.ca (Brian Dorion)
Subject: Four Poster Beds
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1993 19:28:22 GMT

 <KGORMAN at ARTSPAS.watstar.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
> NIELSEN at falcon.mayo.EDU writes:
>>Speaking of Rialto Party, I am still working on plans to make my pavilion 
>>even more decadent. Umm, does anyone by any chance have plans or ideas on
>>how to make a four-poster bed that breaks down totally and stores fairly
>>small-ly? I've got some ideas, but since all my wood-working skills have
>>been learned on the fly (and a very small fly it was, too), I'm not sure 
>>what would work and what wouldn't.
>
>How bout a rope bed with high ends?  I don't know how to make one but Konrad 
>has one.

The rope bed that I have was made by someone else as a platform bed.  I
used as such for a year, but when the van went, I could no longer haul a
4' x 6' sheet of plywood around so I turned it into a rope bed.  The
article in the TI is a good starting point for building a rope bed.  My
bed differs a bit in that the joints are pinned together with wooden
dowels.  The legs are made of 4x4.  The ones at the head of the bed are
about 3 feet high and the ones at the foot are about 2 foot high.  The
sides of the bed are 2" x 6" boards with holes drilled through the center.
The end boards are 2" x 4" with holes drilled through the center.  The
wood work on my bed is all pretty rough, it's not finished at all.  If you
pavillion is large enough you could put legs on your bed that would extend
two to four feet above the mattress and hang misquito netting or
drapperies from the top.  You could run a rope or use two by two to frame
the top of the bed.

I transport my bed with a roof rack on a K-car.  The longest board is six
foot.  I am looking at getting a 2-3" futon made to put on the bed.  It
should be fairly portable and would make the bed pretty decadent.

Konrad Matthias Jaeger

P.S. Do you have three other posters in mind to share the bed with?

From: meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org (meg)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re:Sleeping at Pennsic (was newbie)
Date: Wed, 18 May 94 09:43:01 EDT
Organization: Stonemarche Network Co-op

Megan here.

I sleep on a bed. Well, actually, IN a bed, a shutbed to be precise. It 
is period in appearance, if not in material. The mattress is a foam 
mattress with eggcrate overlay for extra softness. I cover it with a 
white bedsheet, several warm blankets of handspun handwoven wool, and 
overall a brocaide cloth. My pillow is a feather pillow. I have a window 
on my right which opens out and up as a shutter. When I am lucky, Ellisif 
plays her gentle dulcimer beneath my window as I wake. When I am unlucky, 
some *6x$%&(&x:+$^!!! scot plays wretched bagpipes. (well, actually this 
only happened once. After what I said to him, I doubt if he'll ever return!)
ON the left I have a curtain which is attached to rings that slide on a 
dowel to close off the 3 foot opening to my bed.At night I close these 
curtains, and enjoy the warmth of my cosy bed. It also keeps out the flies.
Above my bed is a storage loft. I used to have a young apprentice who 
slept up there. Beneath my bed is another storage area, curtained off so 
you can't see the refrigerator where I hide my medications...

Also, in the bed compartment are shelves. The ones you can see from 
outside the compartment have period looking containers on them, which 
hold mundane necessities.  The ones you can't see have the bug spray, the 
matches, the alarm clock, the emergency flashlight. I also hang my hat on 
a peg on the wall above my feet. 
OUtside my bed, hanging on the wall, I keep an orinale, like any sensible 
person.

G'night all!

BTW, when it rains really hard, I close my window and go back to sleep. 

Megan

== 
In 1994: Linda Anfuso
In the Current Middle Ages: Megan ni Laine de Belle Rive  
In the SCA, Inc: sustaining member # 33644

                                YYY     YYY
meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org      |  YYYYY  |
                                |____n____| 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: davis.jim at epamail.epa.gov (Jim Davis)
Subject: Re: Sleeping at Pennsic (was newbie)
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 15:30:13 GMT
Organization: I don't think so.

In article <1994May18.170454.13682 at ns.network.com> mercese at zrp.network.com (Steve E. Mercer) writes:

>Some gentles have recently told me that rope beds are historically accurate
>sleeping accomodations.  Others have stated that rope beds are an entirely 
>modern creation.  Does anyone have any documentation which demonstrates that 
>rope-mattress beds were used during the SCA time period?

Rope beds certainly are period. I suggest you get a copy of:

Eames, Penelope. Furniture in England, France, and The Netherlands from the 
Twelfth to the Fifteenth Century. London:The Furniture History Society, 1977.

While there are no surviving rope beds (and thus no pictures), if I recall 
correctly, Eames lists several from period inventories. -RdG

>-Justin Silvanus
>-Barony of Nordskogen, Middle Kingdom

Richard du Guesclin, Elvegast, Windmaster's Hill, Atlantia
davis.jim at epamail.epa.gov

From: meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org (meg)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Sleeping at Pennsic (was newbie)
Date: Wed, 25 May 94 23:42:21 EDT
Organization: Stonemarche Network Co-op

davis.jim at epamail.epa.gov (Jim Davis) writes:

> In article <1994May18.170454.13682 at ns.network.com> mercese at zrp.network.com (S
> 
> >Some gentles have recently told me that rope beds are historically accurate
> >sleeping accomodations.  Others have stated that rope beds are an entirely 
> >modern creation.  Does anyone have any documentation which demonstrates that
> >rope-mattress beds were used during the SCA time period?
> 
> Rope beds certainly are period. I suggest you get a copy of:
> 
> Eames, Penelope. Furniture in England, France, and The Netherlands from the 
> Twelfth to the Fifteenth Century. London:The Furniture History Society, 1977.
> 
> While there are no surviving rope beds (and thus no pictures), if I recall 
> correctly, Eames lists several from period inventories. -RdG
> 
> >-Justin Silvanus
> >-Barony of Nordskogen, Middle Kingdom
> 
> Richard du Guesclin, Elvegast, Windmaster's Hill, Atlantia
> davis.jim at epamail.epa.gov

Megan here... 
there are paintings of rope beds from the Renaissance in "Italian 
Interiors of the Renaissance". 
== 
In 1994: Linda Anfuso
In the Current Middle Ages: Megan ni Laine de Belle Rive  
In the SCA, Inc: sustaining member # 33644

                                YYY     YYY
meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org      |  YYYYY  |
                                |____n____| 

From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Sleeping at Pennsic (was newbie)
Date: 26 May 1994 07:18:43 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

>davis.jim at epamail.epa.gov (Jim Davis) writes:
>> Rope beds certainly are period. I suggest you get a copy of:
>> 
>> Eames, Penelope. Furniture in England, France, and The Netherlands from the 
>> Twelfth to the Fifteenth Century. London:The Furniture History Society, 1977.
>> 
>> While there are no surviving rope beds (and thus no pictures), if I recall 

There is a surviving rope bed dated to 1620 at -- I believe -- the Museum
of London. (At least it was there back in 1981. I have sketches that I made
of it but didn't note clearly which museum I was in at the time.) It's very
plain and quite narrow; basically just four square posts and the rails that
hold the lacing, plus two braces around floor level between the pairs of 
posts at head and foot.

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn

From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Sleeping at Pennsic (was newbie)
Date: 23 May 1994 08:10:59 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Steve E. Mercer <mercese at zrp.network.com> wrote:
>
>Some gentles have recently told me that rope beds are historically accurate
>sleeping accomodations.  Others have stated that rope beds are an entirely 
>modern creation.  Does anyone have any documentation which demonstrates that 
>rope-mattress beds were used during the SCA time period?
>
>-Justin Silvanus

The earliest extant example of a rope bed that I've seen was dated 1620 --
not quite in period, but certainly within a reasonable margin of error.
(I believe this example was in the British Museum -- my notes and sketches
are from over a decade ago and aren't entirely clear on that point; it
might instead have been the Museum of London.) It's quite simple, with
a plain square post at each corner, flush at the top with the side rails,
and with a brace just above floor level between the pairs of posts at
head and foot. The plainness of the design and lack of ornamentation
suggest that this was not some curious innovation, but more likely a
traditional middle or possibly even lower class artifact.

I haven't been able to find examples in art on a cursory search, but if
the rope bed were, in fact, a middle-class style, it would be less likely
to be represented there and would probably need a more in depth search to
turn up examples.

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn

From: jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Sleeping at Pennsic (was newbie)
Date: 25 May 94 13:46:48
Organization: STC Technology Ltd., London Road, Harlow, UK.

>Some gentles have recently told me that rope beds are historically accurate
>sleeping accomodations.  Others have stated that rope beds are an entirely 
>modern creation.  Does anyone have any documentation which demonstrates that 
>rope-mattress beds were used during the SCA time period?

The Victoria and Albert museum in London has the great bed of Ware.
this is a large four poster bed which was mentioned by Shakespear, so
it was around and in use then.

The bed has turned and carved posts, a carved back, and a very sturdy
wooden frame. The original ropes have gone, and the bed is on display
without any bedding, but it still looked pretty impressive to me.

The Oseberg and Gokstad ship burials (8th and tenth centurys
respectively) both had wooden bed frames. These were not four posters
but had head posts carved with animal heads, and plainer foot posts.
I believe these beds originall had wooden slats for the bases, if
anyone is seriously interested I have a copy of the original
archaeologists write up on the Gokstad ship (It's called something
like "The Viking Ship discovered at Gokstad" and it's by N.
Nicolaysem. It was publisged by Alb Cammermeyer & the date was
something like 1882, I'd have to check that up to be sure). If anyone
wants any more info I can look it up for them. email me at:
J.A.Bray at bnr.co.uk
but you'll have to write soon because that account is due to be
disabled on June 24th when I move jobs.

On a different topic can anyone tell me how to subscribe to the digest
version of the Rialto?

Jennifer/Rannveik
Vanaheim Vikings

From: mordraut at bga.com (Mordraut Freyulf)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rope Bed (was Sleeping at Pennsic )
Date: 26 May 1994 15:18:40 GMT
Organization: Real/Time Communications - Bob Gustwick and Associates

Nils Hammer (nh0g+ at andrew.cmu.edu) wrote:
: When I went to a museum of the Atocha wreck (1622?) I saw a wooden
: fragment that was believed to be from a bedframe. The hole spacing was
: approx. 2" then 4" repeated. This suggests to me that it was actually a 
: strap bed. 

: I would like to know if anyone has a way for a rope bed to breakdown for
: travel without needing to re-thread the ropes. I have given it some thought
: based on the folding army cot, but I am not yet satisfied.

Instead of using a rope bed, I have a breakdown slat bed, based on Norse 
design.  I use seven slats to support 1/4" plywood, and then add 
padding.  The overall size for the bedding is queensize, and I've had no 
problems.
 --
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Mordraut Freyulf |  So what is a 13th Century Mongol doing   | Dark Horde  |
| mordraut at bga.com | Riding down the Information Superhighway  |   Moritu    |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|

From: s_rodger at acad.lvc.edu (Scott Rodgers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rope Bed (was Sleeping at Pennsic )
Date: 26 May 1994 21:34 CDT
Organization: Texas A&M University OpenVMScluster

In article <2s2ekg$9gj at giga.bga.com>, mordraut at bga.com (Mordraut Freyulf) 
writes...
>Nils Hammer (nh0g+ at andrew.cmu.edu) wrote:
>: When I went to a museum of the Atocha wreck (1622?) I saw a wooden
*snip*
> 
>: I would like to know if anyone has a way for a rope bed to breakdown for
>: travel without needing to re-thread the ropes. I have given it some thought
>: based on the folding army cot, but I am not yet satisfied.
> 
*snip*

  While i was helping some friends set up their camp for the texas ren festival
i noticed that they were using a rope bed. The first i'd ever seen, but this
was going to be where they slept every weekend for quite a few months.
  The headboard, and sideboards all had slots in them so that you could slide
the rope down into the slot. The rope itself was weeved in such a manner very
much like a hammock, or fishing net. After this was done they used some sturdy
thread to tie around each point of connection. This way they could simply
pull the ropes up off of the framework, and roll it up like a carpet.
  The legs had grooves in them for the boards to slide down into, and pegholes
to secure the boards into the legs. For breaking it down you just had to pull
the pegs and lift the boards out. The longest piece was 6ft long, but you
could always use tongue and groove construction to split them into 3 foot
pieces.
  I especially liked their bed because it used to nails at all. Occasionally
they would have to untie the ends of the rope to take in the slack, since 
rope stretches. However the ties they used at the joins allowed the rope to
play through them easily.
  If i had an encampment to begin with, i think i might make a rope bed just
for the fun of doing it.
Humbly,
  Scott Rodgers (mundane but working on it)

From: ddfr at aol.com (DDFr)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rope Bed (was Sleeping at Pennsic )
Date: 26 May 1994 22:49:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)

 Nils Hammer asks:
"I would like to know if anyone has a way for a rope bed to breakdown for
travel without needing to re-thread the ropes."

Yes. The frame is 2x4's. At each corner, one of them is cut down to
about 1 1/2 x 2 and fits through a 1 1/2 x 2 hole in the other. The
tension of the ropes holds the whole thing together very tightly--no
pegs necessary. To disassemble, you loosen the ropes enough so that
you can pull the frame apart, then lay all four frame pieces parallel
and together, with the rope still threaded. Tightening when you set
up is still a pain, but I haven't relaced in years.

David/Cariadoc

From: kathy.duffy at buckys.com (Kathy Duffy)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject:  Re: Sleeping at Pennsic (was newbie)
Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 20:35:00 GMT
Organization: Bucky's BBS (609)861-1131 * Dennisville, NJ

M>Some gentles have recently told me that rope beds are historically accurate
 >sleeping accomodations.  Others have stated that rope beds are an entirely
 >modern creation.  Does anyone have any documentation which demonstrates that
 >rope-mattress beds were used during the SCA time period?

The Bed of Ware in the British Museum was a rope bed and was famous
during the Tudor period.  It is immense even by modern standards.

From: Lassman at BldgDafoe.Lan1.UManitoba.CA (Linda Lassman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re:  Sleeping at Pennsic
Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 23:34:56 GMT
Organization: University of Manitoba

A number of years ago there was an article in TI about period rope beds, 
with instructions on how to make one.  The instructions were clear enough 
that even I, The Compleat Non-Woodworker, successfully make one.

It's still doing good service (although not to me) :-)

- Gabriela dei Clementini
Barony of Castel Rouge, Midrealm

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: rope beds
From: schuldy at zariski.harvard.edu (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Date: 26 May 94 10:53:14 EDT
Organization: My own little corner.

ALBAN at delphi.COM writes:
  i tried using a rope bed for a while at pennsic and various
  other camping events. i switched eventually to a slat bed.
  trouble i found with rope beds is that the bloody rope
  kept stretching, which means i'd have to tighten it
  every couple of days, which gets to be a nuisance.

My friend Harald Longfellow made an excellent suggestion as he helped me
make my bed.  We made a large number of wedges, by cutting 2 x 4 boards
diagonally.  When the bed rope stretches a little, drive a wedge between the
loops of rope around the outside of the bed, and the frame.  Tightens right
up.

I have found that the ropes ease a good bit for a few hours after the bed is
first assembled. A good tightening after that is useful. Following that, a
few wedges the first night, and perhaps one or two more the following days,
will do.

	Tibor
-- 
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy at math.harvard.edu)

From: salley at niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Viking Beds
Date: 27 May 94 15:02:01 GMT
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208

A gentle asked if Viking beds actually existed in period, or were they
simply an SCA invention.  They're period.

I built my first Viking bed in 1987.  I saw a picture, taken in a museum, of 
a Viking ship.  In the background was what appeared to be a Viking bed.
I wrote to the Norwegian Embassy in Washington, explaining that I was in
the process of building one, I didn't speak Norwegian, and would they please
forward a request for more information about the bed to the museum itself.

I heard nothing for about three weeks, then JACKPOT!!!  I received a 9x12
envelope from the Norwegian Information Service in the US literally stuffed
to overflowing.  Without exaggeration, it was 3/4 in thick.  Photographs
of the bed, a chair, tent arches, a chest all from the ship along with the 
prow of the ship itself.  Official Norwegian govt. publications on Viking
sculpture, archeological digs of Viking ships, pamphlets of a Viking Art
exhibition, postcards from the museum, etc. etc. etc.  Hours of reading
material, it was wonderful!  Perfect documentation.  They also included a
letter stating that the museum staff could handle correspondence in English
and would be happy to answer any further questions.

The addresses:
Norwegian Information Service, 825 Third Avenue, New York NY 10022-7584
Viking Ships Museum, 35 Huk Avenue 35, Oslo Norway 0287 

                                                       - Dagonell

SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat	    : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Internet    : salley at niktow.cs.canisius.edu
USnail-net  : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: rzex60 at email.sps.mot.com (Jason Magnus)
Subject: Re: Rope beds
Organization: The Polyhedron Group
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 1994 20:37:12 GMT

In article <9406171318.AA23372 at roym.batdd1.pica.army.mil>,
mortonr at pica.ARmy.MIL wrote:

> 	I've been scanning through some of my old extracts from the
> Rialto and came across a description of a rope bed.  The description
> is as follows:
> 
> 	A 4' X 6-1/2 ' frame of 2X6 boards, held at the corners by
> 4" door hinges and supported by 4 1-1/2' 2X6 legs bolted to the frame.
> 3/4" holes are drilled every 6" around the frame to thread the rope
> through.

Sounds like a reasonable, functional design. It's inexpensive, and easily
made by a novice. It also provides a good starting point for far better
designs, using better joinery and materials, for those of us who are
woodworkers. Thanks for sharing it with us. I think you have just inspired
me to try my hand at making an improved, more period-looking version.

I have seen several similar rope beds in West Kingdom and in An Tir.
Allowing for the modern materials and fastening devices, the concept isn't
all that different from some period beds that I've studied in my quest for
period furniture designs. I will add to your specs that the rope used
should be a type that is strong, abrasion-resistant, and doesn't easily
streach. Something that holds knots well is a darned good idea too :-)
(which disallows most polypropylene rope).

> Questions:  Is there any special recommended way of threading the
> rope?  

Yes. Lengthwise first, then width-wise.

> Do you just tie a knot at one end, run the rope back and
> forth and then tye a knot in the other end?   

Basicly, yes. Start with a knot on the outside, in the foot-board close to
one leg. Go to the other end, out the corresponding hole and back in
through the next one away from the leg. Repeat until you run out of end
holes. At the last end hole, go around the outside of the frame to the
nearest hole on a long side. (This is a good point to pause and tighten the
ropes so far.) Then continue weaving the width-wise part. When you get to
the end, a 'tinber hitch' or a series of half-hitches around the side frame
or the leg secures the end. This is -much- easier to untie later, and to
adjust as you tighten the ropes. It also allows you something to do with
the slack rope that is hanging out of the hole after you tighten it all up.
You may also want to consider tying a timber hitch at the starting point,
so you can tighten in both directions. I've seen it done either way.

> Do you interlace
> (weave) the lengthwise and widthwise ropes?

It's best if you do, because it yields a flatter surface. But it works OK
if you lay the width-wise ropes on top of the others, or if you alternate
with one over all then one under all.

> Do you use one long
> length of rope or different ropes for the length and the width?

Either, as you choose. Two ropes allows independent tensioning. One rope is
less wasteful and more common.

> 	Is there any special design needed for the key?

What key? If you mean a tensioning device, you just pull it tight and
timber-hitch it.

> 	The legs are described as being bolted on 1 ' from the
> ends of the long side.  Does this mean that a 3/4" hole should
> be bored through them and the leg centered over the rope hole,
> or that the 2X6 should be cut down to a 2X5 and placed between
> rope holes?

It can go either way. Remember that a '2x6' has an actual measurement of
1.5" x 5.25", so it won't obstruct the holes much. if you find that it
does, notch the sides of the legs.

Some refinements:

Period rope beds have a groove for the rope in the outer surface of the
rails, making it less likely to catch on things. 

Since you'll be pulling the rope tight, it will be abrading where it
contacts the side of the holes that it bends toward. Radius this edge of
each hole with a rat-tail file to minimize wear on the rope.

Consider a more sturdy method of joining the legs, rather than hinges. The
hinges will get loose and wobbly rather soon. The fittings used to attach
wooden bed rails to headboards work better, though they take more work. A
metal plate with two hooks on it is attached to the end of all rails.
Matching metal plates with two slots in them are attached to the legs. I
used this technique to make a bed before, and it was quite stable and
strong. I used 18-inch 4x4's for the legs.
-- 
Regards, Jason Magnus (aka Jay Brandt)         <rzex60 at email.sps.mot.com>
In the SCA, HLS Jason of Rosaria, JdL, GdS, AoA           (Member # 3016)
Designer / Craftsman : Bear Paw Woodworks

From: Alberic6 <alberic6 at delphi.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rope beds
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 94 22:18:08 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info at delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)

Greetings all,
In regards to the previous discussion on rope beds, I've used one at
Pennsic for the last 6 years, and have been tinkering with it on-&-off
for most of that time.
The two things I'm currently playing with are putting a turnkey on every loop,
and possibly using cleats instead of holes.
The turnkey idea sounds like a lot of work, but I think it will make it easier
to get the thing decently tight.
The other idea was that instead of threading the whole line *through* holes,
why not pass them *around* cleats?  It would make it infinitely faster to
set up, and if I can think of any way to do it that will still let me
turnkey it, I suspect I will.
(The longest part of setting it up is threading it....1hr usually.)
One neat idea I saw once was having a bed that hinged in the middle
so it could be folded up and stowed on a roof-rack, then taken down, opened
 
As to the type of line, my preference is for something *braided* and not
a standard cable twist.  Reason being that the twisted line tends to come
undone when being turnkeyed, while the braided stuff doesn't.
 
Later-
Alberic
(Better camping through high-tech medievalism....)

From: mcs at unlinfo.unl.edu (M Straatmann)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rope beds
Date: 20 Jun 1994 13:22:55 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln	

In article <BqwxISQ.alberic6 at delphi.com> Alberic6 <alberic6 at delphi.com> writes:
: >The two things I'm currently playing with are putting a turnkey on every loop,
: >and possibly using cleats instead of holes.
: >The turnkey idea sounds like a lot of work, but I think it will make it easier
: >to get the thing decently tight.
: >The other idea was that instead of threading the whole line *through* holes,
: >why not pass them *around* cleats?  It would make it infinitely faster to
: >set up, and if I can think of any way to do it that will still let me
: >turnkey it, I suspect I will.

Having just finished testing my new rope bed at Lillies <grin!>; I 
found that a cleat used at the end of a rope makes tightening easier. 
I used two ropes, one across, one back and forth, and when I had 
tightened it, I simply wound it around the cleat.  Much easier for 
knot-impaired people like myself. 

mikhail, calontir
********Michael Straatmann**********mcs at unlinfo.unl.edu**********

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: MCNUTT at gateway.ce.utk.edu (Bill McNutt)
Subject: Re: Rope beds
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 14:28:05 GMT

In article <keeganCrq5yv.LJo at netcom.com> keegan at netcom.com (Tim Bray/C. Keegan) writes:
>Bill McNutt (MCNUTT at gateway.ce.utk.edu) wrote:
>: My first thought was "All those cleats would catch on everything in the van, 
>: making it a bitch to load and unload.  But if you were to double-knotch the 
>: under-side of the boards, essentially making wooden cleats...

>Will the cleats hold up to the high stresses and general abuse?  And if 
>they are on the underside of the boards, how do they stay in place when 
>you lie on the bed?  (Or do other things on it...)

You bring the rope over the top of the side runner, down to the cleat, and 
back over the top.  I'll scan in a gif for anyone who wants to see it, if it 
works.

We're gonna find out.  I revved up the ol' router this weekend, and I should 
have the beds finished in time for Border Raids this weekend. (Good thing, 
too.  I'm too old to be sleepin' on the ground.)

It takes a long time to make mortise and tenon joints, even with power tools.

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: keegan at netcom.com (Tim Bray/C. Keegan)
Subject: Re: Rope beds
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 01:52:49 GMT

Jason Magnus (rzex60 at email.sps.mot.com) wrote:

: Consider a more sturdy method of joining the legs, rather than hinges. The
: hinges will get loose and wobbly rather soon. The fittings used to attach
: wooden bed rails to headboards work better, though they take more work. A
: metal plate with two hooks on it is attached to the end of all rails.
: Matching metal plates with two slots in them are attached to the legs. I
: used this technique to make a bed before, and it was quite stable and
: strong. I used 18-inch 4x4's for the legs.

Our bed was made for us by my squire some years ago.  Instead of 
fasteners to hold the rails to the legs, which as you correctly pointed 
out will get wobbly over time, he chopped large mortises in the tops of 
the 4x4 legs and cut tenons on the ends of the rails.  The tenons were 
haunched rather than shouldered, i.e. the tenon was formed by cutting 
away half of the width of the board at the end; the tenons were 3-1/2 
inches long so they were flush with the outside of the legs.  The 
mortises are cut such that one tenon fits over the other, in such a way 
theat the rails are level with each other.  (Is any of this making 
sense?  How I wish I could simply show you a picture!)

From this description you may have noticed no means of holding the joint 
together.  The joint is in fact loose and wobbly, until you tighten the 
ropes, at which point the bed hold itself together.  It really works, you 
can toss & turn all you want.  (Or whatever.)

The only problem that developed shortly after the beds were put into 
uses, is that the mortises were too large and weakened the 4x4s too much, 
and the joints began to crack & split.  This was repaired by drilling and 
inserting long lag-screws through the weak parts.  Inelegant, but 
functional, and hidden after it's done.  If you used 6x6 instead, it 
might be strong enough.  Or if you used oak, or cut smaller mortises, etc.

This concept could undoubtedly be developed further to yield a nearly 
authentic design that holds up to repeated assembly and (more 
destructive) disassembly.  Period beds were assembled with pegged 
mortise-and-tenon joints (as were almost everything else) that aren't 
really amenable to knockdown use.  Tusk-tenons are period and work really 
well for knockdown joinery, but I haven't worked out how to design a 
joint to use them in this application.

Regards,
Tim

From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rope beds
Date: 21 Jun 1994 03:11:18 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Tim Bray/C. Keegan (keegan at netcom.com) wrote:
: Our bed was made for us by my squire some years ago.  Instead of 
: fasteners to hold the rails to the legs, which as you correctly pointed 
: out will get wobbly over time, he chopped large mortises in the tops of 
: the 4x4 legs and cut tenons on the ends of the rails.  The tenons were 
: haunched rather than shouldered, i.e. the tenon was formed by cutting 
: away half of the width of the board at the end; the tenons were 3-1/2 
: inches long so they were flush with the outside of the legs.  The 
: mortises are cut such that one tenon fits over the other, in such a way 
: theat the rails are level with each other.  (Is any of this making 
: sense?  How I wish I could simply show you a picture!)

: From this description you may have noticed no means of holding the joint 
: together.  The joint is in fact loose and wobbly, until you tighten the 
: ropes, at which point the bed hold itself together.  It really works, you 
: can toss & turn all you want.  (Or whatever.)

Then you add to this something that I came up with for my own rope-bed. 
you use two ropes -- one for each direction. And when you lace it up the 
first time, you leave enough extra length at the end of the rope as the 
number of lacing holes times the length of a tenon. Then, at the end of 
the event, you _loosen_ the rope but don't actually unstring it. You now 
have enough slack to slide the tenons out of the corner posts (one end at 
a time). There is also enough slack in the rope now that you can collapse 
the laced-up part into a bundle no longer than the longer of a) the side 
bar; or b) 2x the end bar. When you set the bed up, you just tighten the 
lacing after fitting the corner posts on. You _don't_ have to thread and 
weave the ropes, which is by far the most annoying part. And what's more, 
you have a physical frame that is about as close to the period frames 
I've seen as you can get and still be able to take the thing apart. I 
came up with something more complicated, more annoying, more fragile, and 
less authentic than the above system and now wish I hadn't.

I also find that I have no problem whatever with having the ropes sag 
during the course of an event, so I don't know what I'm doing differently 
from the people who are making such a fuss about the hassle of tightening 
ropes. I'm using an ordinary, twisted, natural-fiber rope and just tie it 
off with a couple of half-hitches. Over a three-day event there is no 
noticable sag. I haven't tried it for a week at a time, but I can't see 
having to tighten it more than once at the most -- if at all.

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn

From: mortonr at pica.ARmy.MIL
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Rope Beds
Date: 22 Jun 1994 09:55:04 -0400

Greetings to all on the Rialto!

	First, let me  just say Thankyouthankyouthankyou to everyone who
responded to my rope bed post.

	Secondly, on the subject of cleats catching on things, has anyone thought
about a cap-bar?  You know, a piece that runs the length of the piece bridging
all the cleats.  I'm not sure how it would attatch, but it could be made simply
by cutting a piece 1/2" wide from the edge of the board before cutting the
cleats.  Does this make any sense?

		-Malcolm

From: Alberic6 <alberic6 at delphi.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rope beds
Date: Fri, 24 Jun 94 09:27:22 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info at delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)

Greetings again;
On the subject of rope bed joints, (No, I can't extract....long live delphi...)
My old and much modified rope bed seems to work pretty well with the following
system.  When I built it, I used 2"x6" nominal lumber, and devided that along
the tall face into three equal sections.  For the sides, I cut out the centre
section 1 unit tall, and 1.625" deep.  (thickness of boards)
for the ends, I then cut out the top and bottom sections to equal depth,
so a sort of Tab A/groove B system existed.  When I assemble it, I just stick
the tongues into the grooves/notches in the end boards and the tension
of the ropes holds it all together.  In 6 years, that's about the only
thing that *hasn't* been modified on that bed, at least once.
It has never had a problem with wanting to become some shape other than
a rectangle. (Imagine if it suddenly took a thought to becoming a....
?trapezoid? in the middle of the night...)
The advantage to that system is that I have two sets of end boards for different
events.  4.5 foot wide bed for my Lady & I at Pennsic, or just 3 feet
for me at other events.
 
Oh, one last note:  To whoever mentioned the idea about threading the
rope through little eyelets or something inside the frame without actually
putting the lines *through* the frame, I tried that about 2 years ago...
didn't seem to work all that well, and it didn't really speed it up all
that much.  (yes, it really *does* take an hour to thread...I've timed it.)
Although if someone really wants to try that, I've got a few ideas that might
improve over what I had.
(the best plan? learn from someone *elses* mistakes....)

regards,
Alberic.

From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rope beds
Date: 22 Jun 1994 18:30:11 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Jason Magnus (rzex60 at email.sps.mot.com) wrote:
: Heather:
: > Then you add to this something that I came up with for my own rope-bed. 
: > you use two ropes -- one for each direction. And when you lace it up the 
: > first time, you leave enough extra length at the end of the rope as the 
: > number of lacing holes times the length of a tenon. Then, at the end of 
: > the event, you _loosen_ the rope but don't actually unstring it. You now 
: > have enough slack to slide the tenons out of the corner posts (one end at 
: > a time). There is also enough slack in the rope now that you can collapse 
: > the laced-up part into a bundle no longer than the longer of a) the side 
: > bar; or b) 2x the end bar. When you set the bed up, you just tighten the 

: I like that idea. But is your bed square? That would allow you to fold the
: frame diagonally once the legs are removed, and then collapse it to the
: length of one rail. If it's rectangular though, wouldn't the collapsed
: bundle be the length of a side rail -plus- the length of an end rail?

No, the bed is 4' x 6'. The lacing is loose enough to allow some play in 
the collapsing. Let's see if I can diagram it out:

| = board
(x) = matching corners

(1) (1) (2)
 |   |   |
 |   |   |
 |  (2)  |
 |  (3)  |
 |   |   |
(3)  |  (4)
    (4)

Trust me; it works.

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn

From: Charly.The.Bastard at f1077.n147.z1.fidonet.org (Charly The Bastard)
Date: 22 Jun 94 16:28:24 -0500
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rope beds
Organization: Fidonet: In the distance...Vanishing Point 

After you build your Viking Bed, run out to the lumberyard and get some 1/2"
plywood and make a panel to fit inside the frame, about 6" smaller than the
inside dimensions and lay it on top of the rope netting.  this spreads the
load over all the ropes right up by the frame rails and prevents the dreaded
'Bjornsag factor' that you get when your weight is carried by only a few
strands in the middle.  I tip the scales at two hundredweight, and my bed is
damn near sagproof.  Just a thought...
---------
Fidonet:  Charly The Bastard 1:147/1077
Internet: Charly.The.Bastard at f1077.n147.z1.fidonet.org

From: haslock at oleum.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Tusk-tennons
Date: 29 Jun 1994 01:12:15 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

Greetings from Fiacha,

I built a workable tusk tenon joint for this application but in birch and ash
rather than 2x6 and 4x4 lumber. However, it should still work.

Top view - L = Leg, S = side rail, E = end rail, each letter = 1"x1"

	LLLL
     EEELLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
     EEELLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
	LLLL
	  SS
	  SS	Bed Area
	  SS

      ^
      Pin goes sideways through tusk in end rail

Side View

	LLLL
	LLLLSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
	LLLLSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
	LEELSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
	LEELSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
	LLLLSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
	LLLLSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
	LLLL
	LLLL
	LLLL Adjust for height

End View
                                 LLLL
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSLL
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSLL
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSLLEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSLLEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSLL
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSLL
                                 LLLL
                                 LLLL
                                 LLLL

Decomposed

Top

	LLLL	SS
	LLLL	SS	EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
	LLLL	SS	EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
	LLLL	SS
		SS
		SS
		SS

Side

	LLLL
	LLLL	EE	SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
	LLLL	EE	SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
	L  L	EE	S  SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
	L  L	EE	S  SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
	LLLL	EE	SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
	LLLL	EE	SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
	LLLL
	LLLL
	LLLL

End
				LLLL
	EEEEEEEE	SS	  LL
	EEEEEEEE	SS	  LL
	EEEEEEEEEEEEE	SS	  LL
	EEEEEEEEEEEEE	SS	  LL
	EEEEEEEE  ^ 	SS	  LL
	EEEEEEEE  |	SS	  LL
		  | 		LLLL
	Make hole for pin here	LLLL
				LLLL

This assumes 2x6 lumber for the rails and 4x4 lumber for the legs.

An alternative assembly would spin the legs to the inside of the side
rails and let the short ropes squash the legs between the side rails and the 
end rails.

The next step is to make the head legs tall enough to support a head board.
Alternatively, fit poles into the tops of the legs and add fabric to covert it 
into a fourposter. Using the post to simply support a mosquito net might be
preferred but I want the extra insulation of a heavier fabric.

	Fiacha

From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Sleeping at Pennsic (was newbie)
Date: 17 May 1994 01:22:26 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

In article <1994May15.230432.7408 at ucbeh>,  <laityna at ucbeh.san.uc.edu> wrote:
>about getting off the ground while sleeping at Pennsic...
>
>If you really want to sleep in comfort and warmth, may I suggest the Therm a
>Rest air mattress available at sporting goods stores (unless of course, you
>
>Tangwystel vyrgh Gwythenek

If I may venture a different opinion, if you _really_ want to sleep in
comfort and warmth, I have not yet found anything to beat my own furniture:
a rope-mattress bed (I've even gotten around the problem of lacing and unlacing
for every set-up), padded with a sheep-skin sheet, a feather-bed upon that,
made up with sheets of linen, and to cover it another feather bed. One of the
major advantages of an actual bed-stead is that you needn't worry about the
ground being a bit muddy. The above may sound a bit elaborate, but I put the
bed-frame together myself with about $20 worth of lumber, the feather-beds are
ones I use at home, so I didn't buy anything special, the sheep-skin blanket
was a bit of a find, but isn't really essential -- any heavy blanket that
supports the feather-bed will do. I've slept in this arrangement and woken
up warm and toasty at Estrella on mornings when the first order of business
was to break the ice in the water bucket. And best of all -- it's historcally
authentic.

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn

From: folo at prairienet.org (F.L. Watkins)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re:Sleeping at Pennsic (was newbie)
Date: 16 May 1994 13:05:17 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

We do a lot of camping (well, maybe less of it this year if the
season is as rainy as last year), and we have come up with three
good bedding methods, which we use according to what we remember
and bring.

Straw is excellent for your bedding. Make yourself a nest and
put down a bunch of blankets and furs, and you have yourself
a comfortable, adjustable and warm bed. Drawbacks: allergies,
bugs and clean-up (spread a garbage bag beneath the straw
to help you pack it away when you decamp; alternatively, some
sites we've dealt with like you merely to kick it and spread
it out over the site). Benefits: if it gets damp and muddy,
you don't have to take it home.

We have an air mattress that we often use. We use a survival
blanket (you know, that silver uncomfortable thing that
is supposed to reflect heat back at you; it works, since
we used one on our waterbed and didn't realize for several
days that our heater had broken) on top of the mattress,
followed by the blankets, etc. Drawbacks: they *always* 
leak, usually develop holes after a while and need to be
reinflated regularly at lengthy encampments. Benefits:
comfort.

Finally, we have a pair of ridge rests: compressed foam,
done with little designs to help circulation beneath
you. They keep you up off the ground and keep you
warm. Unfortunately, not very high off the ground, so
if you're camping in a swamp (such as the time we had
like four inches of rain in our tent--and we were the
*lucky* ones) you're gonna get wet. Benefits: easy to
pack, easy to maintain, insulates. Drawbacks: not
much of a cushion; my wife uses an additional foam
mat (like you used in kindergarten for naptime) on
her side of the bed.

You will notice that we do not use sleeping bags. We
haven't for years. A bunch of nice wool blankets are
much more versatile and have served us extremely well.

Hope to see people at Pennsic. We'll be at the usual
spot most probably.

Yrs, Folo
-- 
Damin de Folo - F.L.Watkins - folo at prairienet.org
Baron Wurm Wald (MK) - Commander Baldwin's Reg't (NWTA)

From: nusbache at epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Sleeping at Pennsic (was newbie)
Date: 17 May 1994 01:53:29 GMT
Organization: EPAS Computing Facility, University of Toronto

Last year I slept wrapped in a blanket without benefit of tent nor
mattress.  One night on the deck by the lagoon behind the bath-house,
and one in the E-ground courtesy of Ilaine.

It was interesting to do Pennsic with only the supplies I could carry
on my back.  I recommend it as a good lesson in perspective.

For two nights.

Cheers,
Aryk Nusbacher

From: davis at aur.alcatel.com (Alan Davis)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re:Sleeping at Pennsic (was newbie)
Date: 16 May 1994 16:29:21 GMT
Organization: Alcatel Network Systems, Inc.
...
>
>Straw is excellent for your bedding. Make yourself a nest and
...
>
>We have an air mattress that we often use. We use a survival
...
>
>Finally, we have a pair of ridge rests: compressed foam,
>
>Yrs, Folo
>-- 
>Damin de Folo - F.L.Watkins - folo at prairienet.org
>Baron Wurm Wald (MK) - Commander Baldwin's Reg't (NWTA)

The most comfortable Pennsic I've had was the year that I splurged and went
Campaign style : 9x15 pavillion, slat bed, camp chairs, trestle table, 
chests, etc. I used a woven grass mat over the ground tarp. It was a 
rainy year and except for a slight trickle that ended about 2' from the
door one day when I left it open, it was dry and comfy.

Pavillions have the added advantage of staying MUCH cooler than 'modern'
tents, I could sleep till noon w/o baking.

Specifically the bed : $30 worth of lumber and minor hardware and about
an hours work with a saw and router makes a portable slat bed frame. The
slats are attached to 2 strips of hemp-like webbing and roll up. The
sides and ends slot together w/o fasteners. Put a futon on top and you
are as comfortable as at home. There is storage space under the bed for
items you don't need quick access to.
---
Alan Davis               davis at aur.alcatel.com | Employed by, but not
CAD Specialist                                 | speaking for Alcatel
Alcatel Network Systems  Raleigh, NC, USA      | Network Systems.

From: odlin at reed.edu (Iain Odlin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rope beds and other means of not sleeping on the ground
Date: 20 Oct 1994 05:10:42 GMT
Organization: The Stuffed Animal Trauma Team  (We're Trained Professionals)

[What do you sleep on at Pennsic?]

  My solution to the problem of cold ground and flat air-mattresses may not
  be suitable for everyone, but it works well for me and my subaru station-
  wagon.

  I bought a futon (full-sized) that has a two piece frame [It turns into a
  nice couch occasionally ;) ].  The frame, its two pieces fit together
  compactly, get tied to the roof-rack and the mattress goes into the back
  on top of all my other gear boxes.  There's enough airspace left over it
  for me to (a) see out, and (b) sleep on it on my way to and from Pennsic.

  Not for everyone, I admit, but it serves my purposes and adds that extra
  bit of decadance to my "palace" ["That's nicer -- and bigger -- than my
  apartment," was a frequent phrase uttered by visitors.  It's still not
  as period as I'd like, but I'm working on it].

  -Iain, Decadant Pursuivant
 ------------------------- Iain Odlin, odlin at reed.edu -------------------------
                      42 Clifton Street, Portland ME 04101

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Subject: Re: Rope beds and other means of not sleeping on the ground
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 02:17:10 GMT

Elizabeth and I used a rope bed for years, but were never entirely
happy with it. This Pennsic I made a slat bed (a mortress-and-tenon
peg together four poster) for our four year old daughter, and liked
it so much I made a full size one for us. It worked very nicely. It
is easier to set up than the rope bed because you do not have the
problem of tightening the ropes, and it has much less sag. The
railings, which I thought were for a canopy and curtains (which I did
not make), are very convenient as a place to put damp clothes when
you take them off, hang up my purse and belt when I am sleeping, and
similar purposes.

Incidentally, both the rope bed and the slat bed used a futon as the
mattress.

David/Cariadoc

From: ifdz176 at utxsvs.cc.utexas.edu (Amanda Shields- Queen of the Smurfs)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rope beds and other means of not sleeping on the ground
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 01:08:23 -0600
Organization: University of Texas at Austin

M'lady, I feel I must warn you of a potential hazard of rope beds. Now, I
have had no _experience_ with this phenomenon (at least not in a rope bed
:)), but I have heard reports of the noise such beds make, especially under
_ahem_ certain conditions. I would take that into consideration if I were
you, as a precaution in case there be smalls in the adjoining encampment.

       Anne Margarethe (Anagret) von Bayern

         Collegium Turris Animarum
         Barony of Bryn Gwlad
         Kingdom of Ansteorra

From: randally at aol.com (RandallY)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rope beds and other means of not sleeping on the ground
Date: 20 Oct 1994 09:16:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)

In article <ifdz176-201094010823 at smf-f6.facsmf.utexas.edu>,
ifdz176 at utxsvs.cc.utexas.edu (Amanda Shields- Queen of the Smurfs) writes:

>I have heard reports of the noise such beds make, especially under
>_ahem_ certain conditions.

Having made and "used" my own rope bed, I will attest to Amanda's
response. (And my wife and I were sharing our divided tent with another
couple!) Oh well. Pay heed, it is advise well given!

From: paulb at saturn.uark.edu (Paul A. Byers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rope beds and other means of not sleeping on the ground
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 14:11:30
Organization: University of Arkansas

In article <38jski$mcm at crcnis1.unl.edu> tmyers at unlinfo.unl.edu (tim myers) writes:

>I would think that the most important aspect of the rope would be whether
>it stretched or not. A rope that stretches would make a rope bed basically
>a hammock in an enclosing frame.

Thats why I when to a breakdown platform bed. At 250+ (never you mind how much 
+) By the time I got a frame strong enough and enough rope its was cheaper and 
easier to pack a platform bed.

Pavel
Calontir

From: jtn at cse.uconn.EDU (J. Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Need Pennsic Info - bring camper?
Date: 27 Apr 1995 13:31:22 -0400
Organization: The Internet

Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.

Chris Faubert writes about what to sleep on at Pennsic:

> This is a big issue.  I am less inclined toward her using what we usually
> use (a blow-up matteress) for a variety of reasons, most notably that she
> would have to kneel, crouch etc to get in and out and that the thing is a
> moisture magnet.  Too many nights we slept in a damp bed.  But what to do
> for a economical alternative??  I have seen Don Danulf's bed (a hand-made
> rope affair) and while I admire it greatelt, it's one more bulky thing to
> bring to the war.  That and you have to constantly adjust the ropes (I
> think).  A camp cot was an idea but we've looked at what's available from
> Sears and other sporting goods stores and they are really flimsy.  Mostly
> aluminium and thin canvas.

My lord and I, being both large, and these days creaky in the joints, faced
this issue a couple of years back.  After some research, I realized that I 
was looking for a period solution to a modern problem: medieval travellers
did not have to worry about fitting a bed into a Toyota, along with two
weeks' gear.  So we started looking for cheap modern solutions.  The 
inspiration for what follows, is the way the platforms that hold up really
cheap old-style waterbeds are made.  It's simple, it's cheap, and it works;
you may find it helpful.

Take some plywood.  Cut it into strips: at least two and up to four of the
length of your bed, ditto of the width, and all as wide as you want your
bed to be high.  Notch them so that you can set the long pieces on edge
with the notches up, and slide the shorter ones in across them to lock into
a frame.  Then cut a couple of sheets each to be the length of your bed
and half the width.  Slap them on top of the frame, and voila, you have a
platform on which to put a futon (or for that matter, an air mattress).

BTW: many people complain of damp bedding.  I have found that the usual
problem is dew, which collects (yes, inside tents) at around sundown.  I
bring an extra sheet to put overtop of all bedding during the day, to act
as a dewcatcher.  At night, I peel the damp sheet of, and we go to bed in
dry bedding.

The same principle can be used to help keep clothing dryer.

Cheers,
-- Angharad/Terry

From: SADV153 at uabdpo.dpo.uab.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Need Pennsic Info - bring camper?
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 95 08:28:41 CDT
Organization: University of Alabama at Birmingham

jtn at cse.uconn.EDU (J. Terry Nutter) writes:
 
->Take some plywood.  Cut it into strips: at least two and up to four of the
->length of your bed, ditto of the width, and all as wide as you want your
->bed to be high.  Notch them so that you can set the long pieces on edge
->with the notches up, and slide the shorter ones in across them to lock into
->a frame.  Then cut a couple of sheets each to be the length of your bed
->and half the width.  Slap them on top of the frame, and voila, you have a
->platform on which to put a futon (or for that matter, an air mattress).
->
->BTW: many people complain of damp bedding.  I have found that the usual
->problem is dew, which collects (yes, inside tents) at around sundown.  I
->bring an extra sheet to put overtop of all bedding during the day, to act
->as a dewcatcher.  At night, I peel the damp sheet of, and we go to bed in
->dry bedding.
->
->The same principle can be used to help keep clothing dryer.

This works.  We also used a futon raised on a platform (really makeshift...we
took two flat wooden boxes that we happened to have on hand, put a piece of
plywood on top of them, and the futon on top of that), and it stayed dry and
comfortable.  We also covered our bedding every day with plastic sheeting,
which we hid under an extra sheet or a couple of cloaks for aesthetics.  We
never had a problem with damp bedding.  (Damp everything else, yes, but *not*
damp bedding!)
 
Jamelyn

From: powers at cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Need Pennsic Info - bring camper?
Date: 28 Apr 1995 10:25:47 -0400
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science

A firm believer in the advantages of decadence during long camps; our bed
was built into the post&beam frame of our tent. it was fairly high off the
ground, 30"? and used slats to support our futon.  As to dampness: we covered 
it with a "flokati" (sp), which is essentially ax8' "woven" fleece, 
(think of a fairly coarse very long staple sheepskin made without
killing the sheep for its hide) I never noticed dampness and if I sometimes
dreamed of being asked to recant whilst being "pressed" twas doubtless
due to the effects of green mead.....

BTW our tent was 8x12" had a raised floor and the height at the top of the wall
was 6', ridgepole was 10'. It cost us about $100 and will be in use for
many Pennsics to come; though I do tinker with the frame a lot.

Dry, comfortable, warm or cool as needed, (can raise the wall cloths);
well worth the effort to build it.

wilelm the smith who will probably use his smaller "viking condo" this year
since his wife will not be attending, (8'x9', 3' wall 10" ridgepole, it cost
$30 to make)

From: powers at cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Mounts for a knight
Date: 29 Aug 1995 16:59:43 -0400
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science

>>"they were shorter in those days weren't they"
>
>Yes, I have some offhand confirmation of this fact
>I had the opportunity to see the Mannerheim museum in Helsinki,
>where peices of Medevil (?) furniture where on display.  Some adult-sized
>beds of the day were scarce five feet long.  The carriage overheads where
>also coresponsively lowered.  It may not be documented proof, but I hope
>it helps.
>Vanyev Betzina of Kumpania Kaldaresh 

Vanyev; I too have seen short beds in several museums in Europe and America.
I have also seen documentation that they were used "sitting up"  due to a
belief that sleeping lying down was injurous to one's health.  (I have also
seen beds that were gigantic and did not decide that medieval folk were 8'+)

I would not accept this as offhand confirmation.  But if you are ever
in the low countries, visit Muiderslot, (near Naarden).

wilelm the smith  who has a 8' bed at Pennsic because it is built into the
frame of an 8' wide tent.

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Mounts for a knight
From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 95 12:28:21 EDT

vanyevbtz at aol.com (Vanyev Btz) writes:

> in response to your earlier message
> 
> >"they were shorter in those days weren't they"
> 
> Yes, I have some offhand confirmation of this fact
> I had the opportunity to see the Mannerheim museum in Helsinki,
> where peices of Medevil (?) furniture where on display.  Some adult-sized
> beds of the day were scarce five feet long.  The carriage overheads where
> also coresponsively lowered.  It may not be documented proof, but I hope
> it helps.
> 
> Vanyev Betzina of Kumpania Kaldaresh (and King of the Gypsies.. although
> of which Gypsies I am still uncertain....)

	Respected friends:
	Most beds were shorter in Northern Europe for a very simple reason:
people usually slept partially sitting up. (If you've ever lived through a 
bad sinus attack without medication, you know why.)
	Shorter carriages may have an equally simple solution; people weren't
clearing roads as well as they did later. More lower branches, more 
opportunities for a high carriage to come to grief... I don't know if it's
_the_ reason, but it might be one of them. }:->

                                Yours in service to the Society-
                                (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk R.S.F. 
                                Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf C.O.L. SCA
                                Una Wicca (That Pict)

From: Patsy Dunham <Patsy.R.Dunham at CI.Eugene.OR.US>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Tents
Date: 26 Aug 1996 16:33:12 GMT
Organization: City of Eugene, Eugene OR USA

brettwi at ix.netcom.com(Brett Williams) wrote:
> (snip)
>The tourney bed served me as my bed for more than ten years until its
>retirement. I personally am not fond of rope beds as the rope tends to
>stretch during the night, rolling both occupants to the center...ick. I
>make no pretensions as to its period-ish nature (it has none), but
>under all its dressing one cannot see the bed itself. Tolerable.
>
>ciorstan

At that, it (slotted plywood pieces) may have more pretensions to 
period-ness than rope, depending on _your_ period.  We have been using a 
mortise-and-tenon peg-thru Norse bedframe for about the last 12 years. 
Based on the bedstead from the Oseberg (I think-- the freestanding one 
you usually see in the books.) (The camp bed finally became the camp bed 
only when himself finished an oak version (for home) just before 3YC).  
It breaks down into pieces the largest of which are either the 7' 1x12 
side rails, or the 4x4" x30" foot posts, or the 52" 1x18" headboard, all 
the other pieces are smaller than those, including the carved headposts. 
 
Himself (the woodworker) gnashes his teeth every time rope-strung beds 
come up... his feeling (based on research I'm not very familiar with) is 
that the common use of rope "mattresses" is probably considerably 
out-of-period, more like the period of Colonial America.

Chimene
(I expect we'll have pictures of the bed available on the homepages soon, 
the scanner arrived this weekend)
http://users.aol.com/gerekr/Ravensgard.html

[Submitted by: Donna Hrynkiw <donna at Kwantlen.BC.CA>]
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 12:51:28 -0000
From: "J.D. Ray" <tailored at sns-access.com>
Cc: steps at antir.sca.org
Subject: Slat bed (very long)

Valen here:

At home we have a slat bed that m'lady and I purchased supplies for,
designed, and constructed all in a few hours one evening.  As you can
imagine, the workmanship isn't top notch, but I don't mind showing it to
people.  I guess that puts it "somewhere in the middle" of quality.

I tried to do an ASCII drawing of the thing, but it didn't work out.  Lend
me your imaginations for a second (scratch paper is allowed)...

Take a couple of 2x4s (really 1.5" by 3.5") that were the same length as
our mattress and attached 1x6 (.75" by 5.5") pine boards to them in such a
fashion that .5" of the pine board stuck out to one side of the 2x4 and
1.5" stuck out the other side:

 #######            <-- 2x4
###########      <-- 1x6

Stand the two of these assemblied up (flip one over and end-for-end) so
that the .5" lip is sticking up and the 2x4s are facing each other.  These
are the sideboards.

Next, cut two 2x4s the same length that your mattress is wide.  These will
be the legs of the bed.  Stand them on edge and cut notches in the top of
each end that are 1.5" by 1.5" to form a sort of an L:

               ********************* Top edge
               *********************
               ********************
********************************
*******************************
******************************
*******************************
********************************

With the legs about half the distance apart that the mattress is long, set
the sideboards into the notches so that 1/4 of the length of the sideboard
is on either side of each leg.  That doesn't sound right, but you'll
probably get the picture.

Top view attempt:

|                                                       |
|                                                       |
|                                                       |
|############################### |
|                                                       |
|                                                       |
|                                                       |
|                                                       |
|                                                       |
|############################### |
|                                                       |
|                                                       |
|                                                       |

Next, cut another 2x4 that is the same length as the sideboards.  Lay it up
against one of the sideboards and mark it on either side of the legs.
These marks should be the guides to cut a 1.5" x 1.5" notch in one edge of
the board.  This is the center support.

Turn the center support with the notches down and center it on the legs
between the side boards.  For a permanent encampment (your bedroom), screw
the whole mess together with angle brackets and such from the inside (on
our bed, no screws show from the outside).  For a portable bed, figure out
how to peg it together, as screwing and unscrewing (don't go there) the
brackets will eventually lead to holes unsuitable to hold the screws (I
SAID, don't go there!).  Cut slats that are .5" thick and as long as the
distance between the top lips of the sideboards.  If you made all of your
cuts correctly, all should sit level and square.

For additional decoration, cut end-caps of 1x6 pine that are 1.5" longer
than the legs.  They should go where a headboard and footboard would go.

You may notice that the legs support the sideboards and optional endcaps
.5" off the ground.  This is to combat mildew collection underneath by
allowing airflow.

The bed that we have at home has supported the two of us (totaling about
350 lbs) for most of five years, with the one-time addition of a 200 lb.
friend that was staying over who decided to wake us up one morning by
diving into the middle of our bed.  We were not amused, but the bedframe
held.

Anyhow, happy building.  I, too, look longingly at Viking beds and hope to
make one soon.

Valen.

From: nerak at aol.com (Nerak)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: slat Vs. rope
Date: 7 Mar 1997 04:58:05 GMT

My lord and I use 1/2" plywood for the deck of our queen size bed.  It is
the same construction as a rope bed.  The plywood deck is cut into two
almost square pieces which fit on the bottom of our van, or on the roof. 
And actually assist in organizing the packing of some of our other stuff.
We also made a bed for a chirgeon friend and cut the deck into three
pieces, and then cut holes in them so they could be used as back boards
for transporting an injured person.

Nerak la Tisserande
Nerak at aol.com

From: moondrgn at bga.com (Chris and Elisabeth Zakes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 23:18:08 GMT

sthomas728 at aol.com (SThomas728) wrote:
>I have read repeatedly of good gentles who have slat/rope beds and cover
>it with a futon.  What type of futon is this?  What is it filled with? I
>know my futon at home is a million pounds and equally bulky and could
>never get to an event with me.  What do you use? Also, what are
>alternatives?  I have heard blow up mattresses. How do they fare? And are
>there any other ideas?

I've never worked with a futon, so I can't comment. As for
inflatables, eventually, they will develop a leak. Usually at the most
inconvenient time possible (ours did the second night of the
Twenty-Year Celebration, for example.) They're also a nuisance to blow
up, unless you get the self-inflating kind.

>Lastly, I would like to hear a comparison of slat to rope beds, on all
>fronts. Not just the feel, but also the ease of set-up, transport,
>materials costs, labor involved, etc.  How do they each break down? Is it
>possible to hinge the side-rails so they aren't 6 feet long? Or does that
>weaken the frame?

What we use, is an actual bed: one of those with head and foot boards,
metal support rails on the sides, slats and a piece of plywood (hinged
in 3 pieces) for the frame, and a regular foam mattress (no box
spring). It's up out of the wet, there's lots of room underneath to
store gear, or hide monsters. 

Setup time is 10 minutes or less: slot the metal rails into the head
and foot boards, set out the slats, unfold the plywood and lay it on
top of the slats, put the mattress down, put on a sheet and bedding,
and go to sleep.

 The comfort level falls into the "decadent" category, which I can't
say for inflatables, or foam-on-the-ground. It *is* a bit bulky, but
will fit into the back of a van, or a 4x6 U-Haul trailer, along with
our regular SCA gear. They also need a big tent, at least 10x16.

I've never worked with a rope bed, but I'm told they tend to sag in
the middle, like a hammock.

        -Tivar Moondragon
                Ansteorra

From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds
Date: 2 Mar 1997 03:29:45 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

SThomas728 (sthomas728 at aol.com) wrote:
: I have read repeatedly of good gentles who have slat/rope beds and cover
: it with a futon.  What type of futon is this?  What is it filled with? I
: know my futon at home is a million pounds and equally bulky and could
: never get to an event with me.  What do you use? Also, what are
: alternatives?  I have heard blow up mattresses. How do they fare? And are
: there any other ideas?

I have a rope-frame bed -- I use a good old-fashioned feather-bed for the
mattress. (The ropes themselves get covered with a sheet of something
stiff enough to keep the featherbed from pooching through. I happen to use
a sheared sheepskin rug that I picked up cheap, but a piece of old
carpeting would work as well.) The advantage of a featherbed over a foam
mattress or futon is not only lighter weight but a smaller packing space.
The trick is to have a store nearby like Whole Earth Access that
occasionally sells featherbeds for around $50-60.

: Lastly, I would like to hear a comparison of slat to rope beds, on all
: fronts. Not just the feel, but also the ease of set-up, transport,
: materials costs, labor involved, etc.  How do they each break down? Is it
: possible to hinge the side-rails so they aren't 6 feet long? Or does that
: weaken the frame?

I've never done a slat bed for camping, so it's hard to say. My rope bed
stores with the ropes all in place (loosened slightly to take the frame
apart) and on a good day goes together in about 10 minutes. It does
require a roof rack for the bundle of rails and rope, though. Materials
are relatively cheap: about 18 ft. worth of 2x4 and about 8 ft. worth of
4x4 (for the legs) and a certain amount of carpentry skill.

I did a different model with a permanently-fixed frame that hinged in the
middle of the long sides for packing. (The hinges were on the _bottom_ of
the side boards, so that the ends folded _down_ for packing but downward
pressure on the bed did not cause folding.) It was ok for sleeping in
quietly, but I wouldn't have wanted to do anything ... um ... athletic in
it, as the side rails had impaired lateral stability.

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn

From: inkheads at ll.net (Dave and Lisa Schwarz)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds
Date: 2 Mar 1997 06:43:02 GMT
Organization: Protocol Communications, Inc.

moondrgn at bga.com wrote:
> sthomas728 at aol.com (SThomas728) wrote:
> 
> >I have read repeatedly of good gentles who have slat/rope beds and cover
> >it with a futon.  What type of futon is this?  What is it filled with? I
> >know my futon at home is a million pounds and equally bulky and could
> >never get to an event with me.  What do you use? Also, what are
> >alternatives?  I have heard blow up mattresses. How do they fare? And are
> >there any other ideas?

Tivor Moodragon replied: 
> I've never worked with a futon, so I can't comment. As for
> inflatables, eventually, they will develop a leak. Usually at the most
> inconvenient time possible (ours did the second night of the
> Twenty-Year Celebration, for example.) They're also a nuisance to blow
> up, unless you get the self-inflating kind.

   The self-inflating matresses known as Therma-Rests are very good, and
the Luxury Edition falls into the *decadent* category, as well. 

   Therma Rests are self-inflating, small enough to pack easily and the
new ones are very durable. We use ours camping in the Boundary Waters of
northern Minnesota. They hold up to the exposed granite (otherwise known
as ground, at least up there) very, very well. No leaks, no trouble. And
we use 'em hard.

Thay cost $50 to $70 a piece, depending on model, Luxury Edition is at the
top end.

   Don't be fooled by their thin, uncomfortable look. Try them at the
merchants and you'll be convinced. DO NOT, however, buy cheaper
imitations. I know someone who did and experienced continually bad sleep
followed up finally by a hissing sound of air rushing out. They bought
Therma-Rests next time and were pleased.

   To be completely at ease in camp, get or make a coupler for the
mattresses. This consists of a standard bedsheet with pockets sewn in to
fit two Therma-Rests underneath. It also has a zipper sewn all the way
around that links to an opened sleeping bag. Togetherness! This system not
only allows conjugal sleeping, but also keeps the mattresses from sliding
and eliminates the need for one sleeping bag (assuming you usually need
two.) If you're opposed to sleeping bags _OOP_, just pile blankets on top.

   No, I do not sell Therma-Rests, nor does anyone I know. They are simply
a wonderful product, rare in the mundane world.

Brecc of Fearghael

From: gerekr at aol.com (Gerekr)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds
Date: 2 Mar 1997 09:44:49 GMT

I use a cotton futon on my Norse bed.  I'd like to use a down mattress
like they are believed to have done originally but they are expensive. 
The air mattresses are right out: they always leak, at least my three
attempts always did.

I like my slat bed, in fact I built one for use at home as well. 
Transport hasn't been a problem but then I have a dedicated eight foot
trailer to haul my Society stuff in.  I did modify the period original so
that the upright isn't riveted to the side rail though.  A trailer is not
a ship.

Master Gerek

From: moondrgn at bga.com (Chris and Elisabeth Zakes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 00:14:58 GMT

inkheads at ll.net (Dave and Lisa Schwarz) wrote:
> moondrgn at bga.com wrote:
>> sthomas728 at aol.com (SThomas728) wrote:
>> 
>> >I have read repeatedly of good gentles who have slat/rope beds and cover
>> >it with a futon.  What type of futon is this?  What is it filled with? I
>> >know my futon at home is a million pounds and equally bulky and could
>> >never get to an event with me.  What do you use? Also, what are
>> >alternatives?  I have heard blow up mattresses. How do they fare? And are
>> >there any other ideas?

>Tivor Moodragon replied: 
>> I've never worked with a futon, so I can't comment. As for
>> inflatables, eventually, they will develop a leak. Usually at the most
>> inconvenient time possible (ours did the second night of the
>> Twenty-Year Celebration, for example.) They're also a nuisance to blow
>> up, unless you get the self-inflating kind.

>   The self-inflating matresses known as Therma-Rests are very good, and
>the Luxury Edition falls into the *decadent* category, as well. 

Actually, the bed we used just before going to the "real" bed *was* a
pair of Thermarests. They *are* comfortable, and waiting five minutes
for them to self-inflate certainly beats 45 minutes blowing up a
2-person air mattress.

After a couple of years, they *did* develop leaks. It's probably just
one of the hazards of living in Ansteorra, where far too many of the
plants have spikes, and even the animals wear armor. <G>

        -Tivar Moondragon

From: parkerd at mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA (Diana Parker)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds
Date: 2 Mar 1997 16:56:23 -0500
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.

Chris and Elisabeth Zakes <moondrgn at bga.com> wrote:
>>alternatives?  I have heard blow up mattresses. How do they fare? And are
>
>I've never worked with a futon, so I can't comment. As for
>inflatables, eventually, they will develop a leak. Usually at the most
>inconvenient time possible (ours did the second night of the
>Twenty-Year Celebration, for example.) They're also a nuisance to blow
>up, unless you get the self-inflating kind.

        I bought a double bed air mattress instead of an air bed or 
inflatable bed.  It started out on the ground, moved to pallets, and 
finally up as the mattress for our slat bed.

        The slat bed was and is the single greatest improvement in
comfort, ease & convenience.  I've never tried to build a rope bed.  
The few I've laid down on sagged in the middle unless tightened daily,
a problem the slat bed doesn't suffer. 

        The rubberized canvas for the air mattress is still going strong
after 12 years, where my friends vinyl air beds are replaced every season
or two.  In retrospect, it was well worth paying $45 instead of $20.

        Inflating it has been problematic.  After mouth-blowing way to
many times, we now leave the air-pump (car powered) in the car between
events so we don't forget to bring it.  Actually, at this point, its
longevity is becoming a problem, as I'd really like to order one of those
feather mattresses from "Domestications" catalogue, and can't quite
justify it to myself because the air mattress works so well. 

Tabitha
-- 
 Diana Parker           parkerd at mcmaster.ca     (905) 525-9140 (x24282)
 CUC - 201               Security Services       McMaster University

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds
From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 97 09:10:46 EST

sthomas728 at aol.com (SThomas728) writes:
        (snip)
> Lastly, I would like to hear a comparison of slat to rope beds, on all
> fronts. Not just the feel, but also the ease of set-up, transport,
> materials costs, labor involved, etc.  How do they each break down? Is it
> possible to hinge the side-rails so they aren't 6 feet long? Or does that
> weaken the frame?
>
> Genevieve

The side rails can be hinged, if the hinges are on what will
be the _outside_ of the rail for a slat bed,  on the _inside_ for
a rope bed. Yes, it does weaken the frame.

        Because the side rails can be slightly thinner on a slat bed, 
it's not that much heavier than a rope bed. It is, however, from 3
to 8 cubic feet more bulk, depending on how closely you space the
slats.

        Slats beds are easier to make, easier to set up (much!),
usually cost more (rope is cheap). Their real downsides are weight,
storage space, and the fact that they _don't _ feel like a real
mattress. 

        Rope beds are cheaper, stow smaller, are somewhat lighter,
and significantly more springy- _If_ you know how to weave the 
ropes at set-up and tighten them every evening. They are, however, 
immensely more difficult to set up, and have about half as long
a working life-span. The tension of the ropes kills the bed 
eventually.

        For both, I think the most comfy mattress is a straw tick.
If you can obtain straw on-site, it's the nicest bed of all and
very easy to transport- the straw stays, only the bag goes. On other
mattresses I have no opinion; featherbeds, however, are lovely if
you have the cubage to bring them.

                                Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf
                                Una Wicca (That Pict)
                                (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F.

From: wmdcarr at aol.com (WMDCARR)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds
Date: 3 Mar 1997 09:44:57 GMT

<<   The self-inflating matresses known as Therma-Rests are very good, and
the Luxury Edition falls into the *decadent* category, as well. 

<snip>

   No, I do not sell Therma-Rests, nor does anyone I know. They are simply
a wonderful product, rare in the mundane world.

Brecc of Fearghael>>

I have a somewhat dissenting opinion here.  First of all, I assume that by
this time the topic has drifted from rope beds, as it would be silly to
own a period bed only to put a screamingly modern matress on it.  

I use a Therma-Rest for mundane backpacking, and in this role it is indeed
wonderful.  To expand a bit on what they are, they are essentially a sheet
of open-celled foam sandwiched within a tough air-tight envelope equipped
with a valve.  The foam's default state is expanded, so rather than
blowing it up for use, you squeeze the air out to transport it. Their
wonderfulness (wonderfulosity??) derives from their portability and
lightness, which are premium considerations if you have to carry the
blasted things on your back for miles at a time, plus their durability and
convenience.

These fine qualities being stipulated, I think Brecc overstates their
comfort:  I would rate it as merely pretty good.  On a proper backpacking
trip one has probably hiked oneself into exhaustion, so pretty good is
plenty good enough.  (In all fairness, I haven't used the luxury edition,
on the theory that the extra weight and bulk are both unnecessary and
undesirable when hiking.)

The point is that SCA camping has different imperatives, and weight
generally isn't one of them.  If you want a non-period matress I would
recommend a simple slab of open-celled foam.  It is signficantly cheaper,
likely to be more comfortable, and is useful at home when you have a mob
crashing with you.

Rouland Carre

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds
From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 97 06:58:10 EST

gerekr at aol.com (Gerekr) writes:
> Alizaunde wrote:
> >     Slats beds are easier to make, easier to set up (much!),
> >usually cost more (rope is cheap). Their real downsides are weight,
> >storage space, and the fact that they _don't _ feel like a real
> >mattress. 
> 
> All things are relative.  It depends what you are making your bed out of
> and what design you are using.  Mine are 1. clear fir,  2. pine and 3.
> oak.  Moderate in price if you know where to look for materials.  The
> design however is probably not easier to make with interlocking mortices
> and carved headboards and shaped footposts with complicated morticing
> arrangements.
> 
> Your other comments make me wonder if we're talking about the same kinds
> of beds.  My fir bed (the camp version) is quite reasonable in weight. 
> Not certain exactly how much it weighs but my wife and I can easily pick
> it up and move it around.  As for it not feeling like a real mattress, bed
> frames are not mattresses, thats what you put on top.  If you mean they're
> not springy,  you should talk to my 4 year old.  He's constantly bouncing
> on his bed and mine.  Perhaps there has been some problem with the
> versions you've seen.
> 
> Master Gerek

        Compared to a rope bed of the same dimensions made with the
same kind of wood, a slat bed will be somewhere between slightly
more bulky (3 narrow slats) to significantly more bulky (solid floor.)

        With 3 narrow slats, it would weigh no more, and perhaps less;
solid-floored, it would weigh appreciably more.

        However, If you made one each to the same dimensions, either
the rope bed would be too light and have severe bowing problems, or
the rope bed would be significantly over-engineered and have a lot
of unneeded weight and bulk. So the weight dichotomy could actually 
swing the other way if the builder really knows his woods and their
load-weight ratios.

        A full-floor, or even half-floor, slat bed is not as springy
as a properly tightened rope bed. (I have joint/muscular disease, and 
can't tolerate less than a half-floor.) Using flexible (thinner) slats 
helps somewhat, but leaves me with the job of stripping the mattress
off and reversing the slats every night. It's still easier for me than
tightening a rope bed would be.  

        Conclusion: we're both right.

                                Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf
                                Una Wicca (That Pict)
                                (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F.

From: bronwynmgn at aol.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds
Date: 3 Mar 1997 22:13:12 GMT

inkheads at ll.net (Dave and Lisa Schwarz) writes:
> The self-inflating matresses known as Therma-Rests are very good, and
>the Luxury Edition falls into the *decadent* category, as well. 
>   Therma Rests are self-inflating...

My father and I both have found that our Thermarests will not self-inflate if they are stored deflated when not being used.  However, since they are mostly foam, they are a heck of a lot easier to blow up than a regular air mattress.  My lord and I use two of them, placed on top of a blanket to prevent sliding, and then covered with several layers of thick sheepskins.  This bed is just as soft as my regular bed at home, and sleeping directly on sheepskin is something we both find very comfortable.  It isn't hot on a hot night, but very cosy on a cold one.

Bronwyn Morgan o Aberystwyth

From: gerekr at aol.com (Gerekr)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds
Date: 3 Mar 1997 23:19:26 GMT

Alizaunde wrote:
>       Compared to a rope bed of the same dimensions made with the
>same kind of wood, a slat bed will be somewhere between slightly
>more bulky (3 narrow slats) to significantly more bulky (solid floor.)
>       With 3 narrow slats, it would weigh no more, and perhaps less;
>solid-floored, it would weigh appreciably more.
Also with respect, my  Lady :-):

I use about seven 1"x 4" slats with about 50% coverage.

>       However, If you made one each to the same dimensions, either
>the rope bed would be too light and have severe bowing problems, or
>the rope bed would be significantly over-engineered and have a lot
>of unneeded weight and bulk. So the weight dichotomy could actually 
>swing the other way if the builder really knows his woods and their
>load-weight ratios.

The rope beds I've seen (very few) required 2"x material.  I would have
thought this would have been the minimal that would have been required to
prevent bowing.  My slat beds use only 1"x material except for the
footposts.

>       A full-floor, or even half-floor, slat bed is not as springy
>as a properly tightened rope bed. (I have joint/muscular disease, and 
>can't tolerate less than a half-floor.) Using flexible (thinner) slats 
>helps somewhat, but leaves me with the job of stripping the mattress
>off and reversing the slats every night. It's still easier for me than
>tightening a rope bed would be.  

I must admit to cheating slightly.  On wide softwood beds I usually extend
the mortises beyond the side rails and peg them.  The slats on my camp bed
have never bowed in 12 years of use, even during the four years we slept
on it daily.

>       Conclusion: we're both right.

Oh I don't think there's right or wrong involved just different
experience.

Master Gerek

From: tyrca at aol.com (Tyrca)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds
Date: 4 Mar 1997 16:17:34 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

     About 3 years ago, I told my lord that I would not go to a camping
event again if I had to sleep on the ground.  It is not the sleeping, but
trying to get up off it in the morning that became so unpleasant.  He
built us a very nice rope Queen-size bed, and we have a double foam-core
futon to put on it.  I like his renovation of rope beds, he put slots on
the top of the rail and pegs on the bottom, and we "speed-lace" our rope
bed in about 10 minutes.  No threading that rope through hundreds of
holes, and it stays fairly tight at a weekend event, and we tighten once
or maybe twice at longer things.  We have three large feather pillows that
we lay down the center of the rope before putting the mattress on top, and
they fill the sag that rope normally has.

     One problem I have with air matresses is that when my lord moves, I
wake up.  Also, air matresses do not warm up.  I usually get cold and
stiff sleeping on one, and my hip (I usually sleep on my side) screams at
me.  I would not trade anything for my bulky futon.

     We also built a rope bunk bed for our two children.  The top bunk is
only 3 feet high, and the bottom one only 8 inches off the ground, but the
kids love it.  They sleep as well as (and sometimes better than) at home. 
On their beds, we simply have a couple of layers of open cell foam in a
bag I made from a double sheet.

    About my rope bed, the ropes hold it so tight that it doesn't creak or
move  _at all_.  In an environment where the walls are one or two layers
of cloth (ie. practically invisible sound-wise) it is nice to be able to
conduct "personal activities" without advertising to the neighbors.  Air
matresses tend to wheeze at inopportune moments if you are at all
enthusiastic.

     We live in Northern Ansteorra, in a kakhi and purple pavillion (that
I sewed myself).  If we are ever at the same event, you are welcome to
come and see our living arrangements.  We are pleased with them.

Tyrca Ivarsdottir,oleander,  AoA, OPN, ASTA

From: DDFr at Best.com (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds
Date: 5 Mar 1997 08:28:49 GMT
Organization: School of Law, Santa Clara University

We used a rope bed for some years (with a futon on top), then switched to
a slat bed. The advantages were:

1. The rope bed tended to sag in the middle--especially if you didn't keep
tightening it.

2. The rope bed was a pain to set up--even though it was designed so you
could take it down without unlacing the ropes. The problem was tightening
the ropes. Perhaps someone else has come up with a good solution, but I
didn't.

I don't think the difference in weight and bulk is all that great, since
the rope bed uses 2x and the slat bed 1x.

Incidentally, the slat bed is a canopy bed. We still haven't put a canopy
on it (or on the small one I built first for my daughter), but the frame
is very useful for hanging wet garments on when we go to bed, hanging a
belt or purse from, ...   .

David/Cariadoc

From: teufel at mail.erols.com (Teufel)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 00:22:03 GMT

sthomas728 at aol.com (SThomas728) wrote:
>I have read repeatedly of good gentles who have slat/rope beds and cover
>it with a futon.  

snip

> ease of set-up, transport,
>materials costs, labor involved, etc.  How do they each break down? Is it
>possible to hinge the side-rails so they aren't 6 feet long? Or does that
>weaken the frame?
>Genevieve

well, my two cents on the matter.
I made a rope bed for myself and my significant other about a year
ago, and it quickly replaced the regular bed that we were using.

Description:  Frame is made from 2x6s, 5 foot by 6 foot.  2x6 legs at
each corner, each 5 foot high.  Carridge bolts are used for attaching
everything together.  Rope is a 3/8 woven nylon.  This is then covered
with a cotton-batting filled futon.  

Ease of setup:   5  (about an hour on site for one person, from
complete disassembly to strung.  Our 16x24 foot pavilion takes two
people 2 hours.)
Comfort:             8 (futon really helps here)
Weight:              6 (about as heavy as my armor box.  YMMV.)
Transport:           5 (we have a trailer, and we made canvas bags for
everything to go into.  One bag for frame, One bag for legs, One bag
for Rope.  One person can carry everything.)

I wanted to make a poster-frame rope bed, that could hold as much
weight as I could put on it (I know it has held more than a thousand
pounds at once), so I over-engineered the frame.  Replacing the legs
with 2x4s 18" long would probably cut the weight by 1/3.  All in all,
it took about a day to build, (all of the cutting and drilling) using
power tools, and some fancy finishing.  I didn't find it to be a
problem.
As a side note, some friends built a slat bed the same day, so as to
take advantage of all the tools convieniently laid out for them.  Took
about the same time to make the slat bed (with the exception that they
made short legs for theirs.  Didn't need the room to put 2 armor boxes
underneath, I guess.)  Another friend of ours built a single size rope
bed with  the sides cut in half and lap jointed, so that he could
break the whole thing down into 10 boards, each 3 foot long.  Worked
well for him.  Lightweight and convienient.  Fine so long as you don't
expect company.

The Warnings:

The rope bed WILL sag.  Nothing you can do about it.  After the first
few time of using it, the sag will be minimalized, and a tightening of
once a week will suffice.  If your only going to use it for a night or
two, you probably won't even notice it.

The rope bed WILL creak.  Nylon rope seems to minimalize this, and
keeping the bolts tightened helps A LOT.  Try to remember this BEFORE
having company over. :)

All that said and done, I refuse to give up my rope bed.  I DO plan on
making one out of oak and doing some fancy carving on it, but until
then I won't go back to the old mattress bed.
To anyone interested, If you e-mail me a fax #, I would be happy to
send the plans I made for my rope bed.  It really wasn't that
difficult, and should be pretty self-evident on how it's made.

                Good Luck, 
                        Frederich Von Teufel
                          MKA Neil Brady

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: Paul Kay <paul.kay at lincroftnj.ncr.com>
Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds
Organization: N&SM
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 18:47:31 GMT

Lyle Gray wrote:
> Blues (Blues at mail.ic.net) wrote:
> : David Freedman wrote:
> : > 2. The rope bed was a pain to set up--even though it was designed so you
> : > could take it down without unlacing the ropes. The problem was tightening
> : > the ropes. Perhaps someone else has come up with a good solution, but I
> : > didn't.
> 
> : One solution I came up with, but never tried, was to use a few wooden
> : wedges on the outside of the frame between the frame and the rope. When
> : the ropes slacken, drive the wedges in further. Obviously, this would
> : only work up to a point.
> 
> I used a special tool called a "key" for tightening the ropes, which uses
> torque to tighten the individual ropes.  It's similar in design to the key
> used for opening a sardine can.  I can diagram it and describe it's use for
> people who are interested (the tool came with the rope bed -- which was
> stored
> in my parents' attic -- along with extra legs that support the center of the
> bed).

Great!  Here I was about to gloat, and you ruin it! :*)  

Guess what I got for Christmas?

I had seen and heard about bed keys since I was a kid visiting
Greenfield Village/Henry Ford Museum and looking for them since building
my rope bed.  I had not been able to find them in years of looking.

My sister asked someone at Plimouth Plantation about them and they
offered to make some.  I now can tighten my bed without moving it away
from the tent wall!

As to the original question - I have seen expensive air matresses grated
to death by rope beds.  I use a medium weight futon (ca 50 lbs - heavier
than the 4 inch "summer" futon, but I forget how much thicker).  As it
got older, the spacing on the ropes became more noticable.  You could
feel them through the matress.

The quick fix? I made a hybrid.  I put a couple or 3 lath strips onto
the rope at the level of my wife's and my torso - where most of the
weight is on the ropes, and the sleeping got better.  It also reduced
the "Deep valley bed" effect, and I kind of miss her rolling into me
during the night.

The next version will be longer, though.  I am just a _bit_ too big for
the full size matress and need to add length to keep my feet off of the
foot board. (or is that why it is called a footboard? :*))  It will also
probably have a canopy on posts so we can integrate the bug cloth into
the bed.  My wife is a Caidan, after all.  (I think she married me for
my decadent camp gear :*))

        Bart the Bewildered
        Carillion, East
-- 
Paul Kay
NCR
Lincroft, NJ            paul.kay at lincroftnj.ncr.com

From: tjustus at sprynet.com (Tom Justus)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 06:00:57 GMT

If you decide to take a futon camping, be sure to elevate it off the
floor-- a sheet of plywood and some 4x4s will do-- the heavy cotton of
the futon will soak up water like a, well, wick, and the mess can
mildew quickly, especially in Pennsic weather. I don't speak from
experience (I've got a feather bed) but I've seen it happen to several
others.  
Tracy Justus

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: slat Vs. rope
From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 97 07:20:47 EST

        Respected friends:
        ...In the reply I just posted, I meant to say:
        "However, if you made one of each to the same dimensions,
either the rope bed would be too light and have severe bowing 
problems, or the _____slat_____ bed would be over-engineered... 

                                Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf
                                Una Wicca (That Pict)
                                (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F.

Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 08:07:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Diana Parker <parkerd at mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA>
To: "Mark S. Harris" <markh at risc.sps.mot.com>
Subject: Re: Futons for rope/slat beds

On Sat, 8 Mar 1997, Mark S. Harris wrote:
> > events so we don't forget to bring it.  Actually, at this point, its
> > longevity is becoming a problem, as I'd really like to order one of those
> > feather mattresses from "Domestications" catalogue, and can't quite
> > justify it to myself because the air mattress works so well. 
> 
> Do you have an address/email/phone for them? I'd like to look into
> these feather mattresses. Do you know what the approx. cost is?

  "Domestications" is a US catalogue company.  I'm at work right now so I
don't have a copy of the catalog.  If you call 1-800-555-1212 (from within
the US) you can ask information for their number.   If you are not in the 
US, send me a return email & I will look up their ordering address when I 
get home.

   From memory, the feather mattress was either $99 or $150 US.  I can't 
quite remember which, but it was low enough to justify for my hobby :) 

   I have ordered sheets and linens & such from them in the past and have no
difficulty recommending them for their prices and their quality. 

Tabitha
----------------
 Diana Parker 	        parkerd at mcmaster.ca	(905) 525-9140 (x24282)
 CUC - 201               Security Services       McMaster University

From: "Dennis O'Connor" <dmoc at primenet.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: MATRESSES for SCAdian events, WAS:  Futons for , Rope/Slat Beds
Date: 12 Mar 1997 20:44:01 -0700

Carol J. Cannon <cjcannon at neuheim.ucdavis.EDU> wrote 
:            My question is:  Has anyone tried those air
: mattress things that are supposed to be as sturdy and comfy
: as water beds?  And if so, what was your experience?

They eventually develop leaks when used for camping.
At least, every one I have used does.  But now I have
adopted pick-up truck camping, and now carry two benches 
(30"x78") covered with a sandwich of several densities 
of foam, over which I throw horse hides and blankets. 
It's more like the way a 13th C. Mongol would live than
most other beds, except they wouldn't have foam, and 
used (and still use) much shorter benches than I do.

I have to be honest: we don't really use a pickup
truck to carry our camp gear.  We use a pickup truck
and a minivan.  There are two of us, after all.

Ah, roughing it ! 
(That's when we forget the two-wheel dolly.)
:-)
-- 
Dennis O'Connor            dmoc at primenet.com

From: Nils K Hammer <nh0g+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: rope/slat beds
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 16:44:17 -0500
Organization: Computer Science Department, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

I got a surprise recently when a friend asked about making a 
copy of my "pickle bucket" bed. After making my tent, I was not
up to making a proper bed, so I used a 4'x 6'4" piece of plywood.
I trimmed off the corner points and bored 4 corner holes. The wood
straps easily to the top of my station wagon. I put the bed up on 4
pickle buckets leftover from unfinished armour and tie the corners
to tent stakes. My foam bed pad is a bit too thin, but heck, the thing
was free. I did much messing with stacking foam blocks on top of the
buckets to raise it enough to fit tall storage bins, but gave up on that.

Nils K. Hammer

From: ejpiii at delphi.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: MATRESSES for SCAdian events, WAS:  Futons for , Rope/Slat B
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 97 11:01:37 -0500

Carol J. Cannon <cjcannon at neuheim.ucdavis.EDU> wrote 
:            My question is:  Has anyone tried those air
: mattress things that are supposed to be as sturdy and comfy
: as water beds?  And if so, what was your experience?
 
I do a lot of backpacking (usually in conjunction with Estrella!) and the thing
I've found that is most usable is the self inflating foam pad
You cabn find these at most camping supply places, or order them. through the
mail from Campmor in Paramus NJ. There are any # of
other places to get them, but I generally find Campmor to be the least
expensive.

They really do self inflate, but it helps if you give 3 or 4 good breaths
afterward, to firm them up.

They really last and are a great deal more abrasion resistant than air
mattresses.

A few hints, hang them in a closet with the valve open, wash them off gently
after each use, and keep seam sealant around just in case. Mine hasn't ever
sprung a leak, and it's been on 2 week wilderness hardcore camp trips dozens
of times. But the rpair kit is just a couple of ounces, so why not. Since
I usually fly to western US events, I find this means that I can carry all
I need, instead of renting when I get there. Much easier and far less expensive.

Eddward-East

Subject: "Viking beds"
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 98 13:05:42 MST
From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>
To: "Windmasters' Hill Baronial List - The Keep" <windmasters at trinet.com>,
     Merryrose <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>

> For the life of me I can't find a single picture on the WWW of a
> slat bed... Magnus? Anyone?
>
>  Hrothgar

(Since I often get asked this I am going to cross post.)

I have pictures of two Viking slat beds, both are from
the Viking ship excavations. One is the large one with the very wide
side, post, and head boards carved with the beasts, the other is a
smaller (and more practical) bed with shaped posts at the corners
and looks more like a single bed. There are some on a very expensive
"World of the Vikings" CD ROM ($110) from England too. Some of the
Viking books show them quite often. But there are only a couple of
survivals. One good book to look in is From Viking to Crusader.

One of the existing beds, the small one, has this approximate structure.
It took me a while looking at it to figure out the reason the slats
were the way they are. Kind of ingenious actually. Primitive springs.
The pegged tenon center slat keeps the stretchers from pushing too far
apart yet allow it to depress with the others. Make the slat tenon
holes a little loose to allow for movement and tilt. You could
substitute a tapered dowel for the tusk tenon in the center slat ends
and drill the holes (It might even work better that way.).

Vikings had rather peculiar wood joints and did not know dovetails.
Where the stretchers intersected each other at the corner posts of beds,
chests, and chairs each tenon was a half tenon (in height) passing
over or under the tenon perpendicular to it. Then there was a dowel
that passed through the post and the tenon and reached into the
end of the other stretcher above or below its own tenon.

                        _____/Upper tenon end seen on end.
_______________________|  _ /|
                    _ _|_|_|_|
                    |__|_|_|_|- dowels through cross
side stretcher         |_|_|_|  tenons top and bottom lock joints.
   ________            |     |
   |_|__|_| slat       |  O  |- dowel through leg and lower tenon
_______________________|_____|  and into the other stretcher
                       |     |
                       |     | leg or corner post

Tenons passed all the way through the legs or corner posts.
For a nicer looking joint let them extend a little and
bevel the ends at a 45 degree angle. Makes for easier insertion
too. The dowels passing through them locked them in place and
reinforced the other stretcher by extending into its end.

Center slats are tusk tenoned or pegged at the outside of the
stretchers and the shoulders go full width. The rest of the slats
are cut a little short on the length of the shoulders where
they lie between the bed's stretchers. This gives them spring
when weight is applied to the center stretcher and they are
depressed. It allows them to move in the holes they pass
through. Looking at them from the top you get:

                                  exagerated space at shoulders.
  |       | no space ctr. slat |_     _|/          _|__|_
__| _    _|/____   ______________|   |____________|      |
____| _ |________   _____________|   |____________|      | leg
    ||_||    side stretcher      |   |            |______|
    |___|                        |___| Tenon end.
Pegged tusk tenon        Free floating slats
only in center slat      every few inches allow "spring".
holds stretchers
together in the middle. It pulls in and depresses with weight and
allows the others to spring because of their shorter shoulders. The
space between the shoulders and the stretchers allows movement and
the tenons slide through the larger mortise holes freely. Trim the
sharp corners for your shin's sake. Maybe carving small animal
heads on them would be creative.

The bed legs are squarish at the top and bottom and in the
middle but taper toward the middle from the top and bottom.
           _________
          |_________|
           \       / I'd trim the upper corners a bit.
            \_____/  (Less painful that way.)
            /_____\
___________|   _   |
           |  | |  | Upper stretcher passing through leg
  ___      |  |_|  |
 |___|     |       |
___________|   O   | Dowell through lower tenon into stretcher
           |_______|
            \_____/
            /     \
           /_______\
          |         |
          |_________|  Bottom length to suit. Bevel base edges.

This is actually a fairly good explanation of a Viking Bed.
Most Probably made of hardwood. Personally I would put screws
up through the solid wood between the holes (mortises)
for the tenons to keep them from spitting the side stretchers.
Ash has excellent spring qualities to it and strength.

If I wanted to take it apart for travel I would make the bed's
side stretcher tenons longer and tusk tenon them or make their
locking dowells longer and looser for removal. Maybe turn some
headed pegs to make them easier to pull.

A tusk tenon actually goes rather like this:
                __
               |  |
               |  |____
_______________|__|___/__  Tenon angle not quite as sharp.
_______________|__|__/___| This is a "tusked" tenon seen
               |  |_/      from the side. Removable for
               |__|        easy disassembly. Angles of the
                           mortise must match that of angled
                           peg. The mortise is the hole.
               |  |
_______________|  |
               |__|______
               |  |___   |  View from above stretcher
               |  |___|  |  (or side of leg) showing a tenon's
               |__|______|  mortise hole, locked by inserting
_______________|  |         angled peg or tapered dowel if a
               |  |         drilled hole is used instead.
               |  |

M. Magnus Malleus, Atlantia and the GDHorde

From: gwynslady at aol.com (Gwyns Lady)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Stuffed Beds
Date: 18 Jul 1998 01:56:27 GMT

>Greetings. I am looking to make a 4 post slat bed to increase the decadence in
>my pavilion(10'x30') and was wondering if anyone could explan to me the art of
>making a stuffed bed. Or perhaps any other thoughts on the like. I appreciate
>any help.

> Eduard von Zarelexis

My name by the way is Lord Gwyn O Glan Y Mor.   

My lady and I camp in the Enchanted grounds at Estrella every year and we have
found straw (NOT HAY) beds are the most comfortable and decadently period style
bed to sleep on, you're gonna love it!! OK here goes, Determine the size of
your bed (single, full, etc...) Take this measurement and add 8" or more
depending on how thick you want the final product to be. 
 
 Imagine if you will, a sandwich style baggie (the kind before ziploc's, with
the flap that folds over one end.........get it?(just remember dont include
that one single layer that extends beyond the length of the bag.) That's what
you're going for.   I can explain (maybe?) more if you E-Mail me.

   Use a good grade unbleached muslin for this and wash it before you sew it.
This will close up the gaps inbetween the weave and it looks REAL period.  You
could use cotton sheeting if you wish but the end result isn't as nice.

   Remember, you will still need to put a bottom sheet over the matress as the
straw does have a tendency to be a little dusty and this will keep it to a
minimum.  Some other actual period practices include: putting rosemary, or
lavender, or other herbs in with the straw.

  It takes us about 2/3 of a whole bale of STRAW. A bale will run you anywhere
from $5-10. You may even be able to set up for delivery of your straw to the
site.  When the event is over,  throw away the straw and fold up you mattress
material. 

   Remember also ,  you'll have to beat down the straw once you get it stuffed
into the bag (use a big stick or broomhandle) beat it down a little, test for
comfort, add straw if needed, beat down again, repeat.  Sounds like hard work
but its not. 

   We (at last Estrella) had a group of junior High kids come thru our
encampment for a tour and demos and they thought the straw bed was so cool that
they all took turns beating on it for us. Ha Ha slave child labour!!

 I hope this has enlightened you a little and I wish you luck. You will never
sleep on anything else!!!

You can reach me (Ld Gwyn) at  GwynnyPOO at aol.com

From: jen-guy at home.com (Jennifer Guy)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Need plans for a portable platform bed
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 01:17:51 GMT

On 24 Aug 1998 09:52:25 -0500, celticbard at cyburban.com (Chris Peters)
wrote:

>               Now that PENNSIC has come and gone I am starting my
>preparations for next year! I am in need of plans for a good portable
>platform bed. I have plans for said in waterbeds but thy aren't quite
>as portable. Does anyone have any or a resource on the web that I may
>look and start sawdust flying?? Thanks in Advance.

A canvas platform bed is comfortable. It offers more support than a
rope bed and less rigidity than a wooden platform. Taking your rope
bed frame, you use a hemmed canvas rectangle about 6" shorter than the
inside measurement of the frame with grommets at intervals
corresponding with the frame's rope holes. "Sew" the canvas into the
frame with rope, it takes a bit less time than stringing the rope bed
did. Your mattress of choice, air, futon, stuffed straw, featherbed,
whatever. This is what we're taking next year, with regular king size
mattress.

From: "Authorized User" <kenyon at plainfield.bypass.com>
Subject: Re: Bedding Ideas
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: 30 Dec 1998 06:33:54 -0800

My lord and I also enjoy a straw mattress at Pennsic.  We use a large cloth
mattress cover. One year, this cover was left behind, but were relieved to
find that the K-Mart at the Giant Eagle Plaza has plenty of plastic
mattress covers in the bedding department.  We were afraid that the plastic
wouldn't look "authentic", but since we usually pile a few blankets on the
bed anyway (as protection against dust and little pokey bits of straw), the
plastic didn't even show.

The canvas cover undoubtedly will last longer than any plastic cover, and
is certainly more authentic, but I thought it may be helpful to point out a
modern alternative to buying and sewing canvas.

By the way, the best way I've found to even out the hay in the mattress is
to beat it with a pole arm for several minutes, pick it up, shake it, and
then beat it again.  Repeat several times.  

Pax,
Brunhildr Bryteyes     

From: Nils K Hammer <nh0g+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Bedding Ideas
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 18:07:46 -0500
Organization: Computer Science Department, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Since I have not yet recreated the perfect bed from a small fragment
of the Atocha wreck _yet_, I use a crude bucket bed.

I cut a 1/2" sheet of plywood down to 6'4'' length, clipped off the corners
and bored holes in the corners. I take 4x plastic pickle buckets left over
from making loaner armour to put the board on. Because the ground is rough,
I put a chunk of foam on each bucket to provide leveling. To prevent the
bed from flipping over when sitting on the edge, I use little tent stakes
to tie down the 4 corners. Of course it needs some kind of matress for
comfort. The main purpose of this thing is to fit all my armour, cooler,
boots, etc. underneath so there is room to entertain in my 9.5' tent.

nils k. hammer
nh0g at andrew.cmu.edu

From: Tanya Guptill <tguptill at teleport.com>
Organization: Sysco Food Services
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Furniture--Rope Bed Plans
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:32:57 -0800

Greetings, good gentles!

With all the furniture plans getting posted, I have had several people
emailing me requesting a rope bed design.  Lord damh’n — ruaidh has a
very thorough plan at http://www.lydia.org/~zaphod/sca/ropebed/

Mira Silverlock McKendrick

Subject: Leather Air Mattresses in Period. Tent Books Info.
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 99 21:34:21 MST
From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>
To: medieval-leather at egroups.com

Since I mentioned this yesterday, Stefan asked me for more
information as to what is in it. It's an interesting Idea so
I thought I'd share it with a few folks.

Ciba Review 1968/3 Tents  (only 48 pages)
Published By CIBA Ltd, Basle, Switzerland.
Magazine distributed to textile schools and companies. ILL it folks,
don't try to buy one.

2. Tents and Camping - Article based on text by Dr. H.-C. Wulff,
    Kassell, and R. Schwob, Bern. (meaning cities in Switz. I guess.)
12. Nomad tents.
26. Tent Shrines and Palaces
35. Modern Utility Tents - H. Schramm, Paris.
40 United Kingdom: New CIBA Phenol Resin Plant; space;  Modern Trends
42. Water-repellent and rotproof finishes for natural cellulose
    tent fabrics.
43. New CIBA White Scale for evaluating the whiteness of optically
    brightened fabrics.
47 Selected Terasil Dyes for texturized polyester.
48. New CIBA products.

A lot of this is modern production information interspersed with
history bits.
888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888

Page 5 has a very interesting very large inflatable mattress
illustration.
"Inflatable mattresses are not a 20th century innovation. Made of
skins and fitted with a bellows, this model was depicted in a 1537
edition of a book on warfare compiled by Flavius Renatus in the
late 4th century AD. Graphic Art Collection, F.K. Mathys, Basle."
(Looks to be at least 6' by 6' (kingsize) and has two landsknecht
types on it and one in foreground. Seams run from opposite corners
and cross at the middle. Kind of like sewing four squares together
folded at the outsides of the mattress. There is a simple bellows
fitted in the corner of the mattress. Also looks to be a strapped
bottle in the foreground, unable to determine if it is supposed to
be leather too. Basically round with a long neck and strap to sides.)

       ________________
      |\              /|
      | \            / |
      |  \          /  |
      |   \        /   | Best I can do in text.
      |    \      /    | Plumps up and sides pull in.
      |     \    /     | No stitching on outside.
      |      \  /      | Just on X and bound on bellows.
      |       \/       |
      |       /\       | Imagine six feet Square.
      |      /  \      | Four Squares sewed together.
      |     /    \     | Original Kingsize air mattress.
      |    /      \    | Sleeps two. Imagine what you could
      |   /        \   | do with one of these.
      |  /          \  | Wonder if it could be made of
      | /            \ | canvas and sealed like a currach boat?
   ___// _____________\|
  |    |
  | () | Bellows, I presume you'd seal it with a stopper.
  |____|
 //

<snip of tent info>

Master Magnus Malleus, OL, Atlantia, Great Dark Horde Brother.
MKA R.M. Howe, Raleigh, NC, USA

Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 13:11:39 -0700
From: DDFr at best.com (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rope bed question

This isn't a direct answer to your question, but I think may be relevant:

Some people I know (Roberto, Niccola, Cattalina and Orlando, all in
Mirkfaelinn) found a period picture of a rope bed. From their description,
it sounds as though:

1. The ropes are on the diagonal.

2. At the foot, the ropes anchor not to the horizontal frame member at the
foot but to a cross piece which is attached to the horizontal frame member
by a rope wrapped many times around the two pieces. Presumably you tighten
the rope net by pulling on that rope, thus pulling the two pieces together
with a mechanical advantage of many.

3. The bed shown is for one person. 

David/Cariadoc

From: jpmiaou at aol.com (JPmiaou)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Straw Mattress?
Date: 23 Jun 1999 00:49:06 GMT

Jennifer asked about a straw mattress:
>How long could I use the straw
>before I'd have to replace it?

Depends on how lumpy a mattress you're willing to put up with.  They last for
years and years, but after a while, they get very firmly packed near the
middle.

I speak from experience.  I've slept on a 20-year-old straw mattress that had
been in daily use for 10 of those years.

One caveat: with modern mattresses, a featherbed is an extra luxury.  On a
straw mattress, a featherbed *really* comes in handy.

In answer to another post's question about bugs: if the ticking is good and
tight, and the straw was clean to begin with, there shouldn't be a problem with
critters.

Julia
/\  /\
>*.*<

Subject: Re: ANST - Rope Beds
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 99 07:55:50 MST
From: damaris at io.com
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

On Mon, 27 September 1999, "Jesus Cavazos" wrote:
> If you don't mind sleeping in separate beds,  Army cots from the surplus
> store work fine.  My wife uses hers when she goes to events and loves it.
>
> Toshiro Koi

We have take two of the spring folding cots and tie them together.  Then we
lay a sleepbag opened on that to pad frome any possible sharp edges, and put
a queen sized airmattress on top.  Its very comfy.

Damaris of Greenhill

Subject: RE: Re: ANST - Rope Beds
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 10:08:06 MST
From: auntdwen at ionet.net
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

  My Lord Johann and I tried a rope bed, but found that it a.) took up too
much room in the tent; and b.) caused us to roll together in the middle of
the bed (good for winter, lousey for summer!).  His solution was to get a
woodworking magazine that had a pattern for a queen sized futon which
becomes a couch during the day and a wonderful bed at night.  It does
require a futon matress (anywhere from $80 - $300) and a means of
transporting it.  We didn't have any problem putting it in two parts plus
mattress in the back of his full sized chevy truck.  We now have a trailer
and it fits quite well.

Baroness Ceridwen of Wizard's Keep
Wastelands

Subject: ANST - Camp Beds .... was: Rope Beds
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 99 14:25:42 MST
From: "j'lynn yeates" <jyeates at realtime.net>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

here's a gem from my house archives that might be of interest in this
discussion .... detailed plans for a 10th century norse bed.

http://www.dnaco.net/~arundel/bedplan.html

it's not a "rope" bed (with the inherent problems others have noted) but a
"slat" bed designed for breakdown and portability ... excellent plan details.
something like this with a futon or a camping mattress would be great (i
sleep on something similar at home - futon on wooden slats)

for ease of setup, i would make some changes to the design, stealing some
design ideas from my home frame and some other ideas that i've been toying
with:

.... build the frame using commercial "break-down" fittings that lock in place
.... put a simple ledge inside the frame
... attach the slats to a fabric/nylon strap on each end (to space the slats
and allow for roll-up).   the edges of the assembly sit inside the frame on
this ledge
... add a pin at the four corners to lock the assembly in place
... build two wooden chests (drawers even) to serve as supports at head and
foot ... gets the frame up off ground, creates storage stape underneath,
spreads weight so as not to puncture tent floor.

design would setup and breakdown *fast*, store and transport easily.

'wolf

Subject: ANST - camp beds ... was: Rope Beds
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 99 14:29:51 MST
From: "j'lynn yeates" <jyeates at realtime.net>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

another site for norse style travel beds ...
http://users.aol.com/prdunham/Gbed.htm

this one is even better at the details than the first one i posted ...
compplete with detailed cutting plans

'wolf

From: David Friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Tips.... Pennsic?
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 07:19:57 GMT

We use a peg together four poster slat bed. You can find the
design in the current edition of the _Miscellany_.  The original idea
was to be able to put mosquito netting over it, but we never did.
The frame connecting the top of the corner posts is, however, very
useful for putting damp clothing over when we come to bed,
hanging my belt over, et multae caetera.

Some of my Myrkfaelinn friends found a period picture of a rope
bed that sounds as if it would be great fun to try to make. The rope
is laced  diagonally, and one end of  the mesh appears to be
attached, not to the food of the bed, but to a crosswise piece a little
up from the foot. There then appears to be a rope wound around
that piece and the foot. Presumably, pulling on that rope tightens
the bed, with manyfold mechanical advantage.

David/Cariadoc

From: bronwynmgn at aol.comnospam (Bronwynmgn)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Tips.... Pennsic?
Date: 10 Jun 2000 14:11:45 GMT

Leigh Claffey <snarf2 at home.com> writes:
>My "bucket bed" uses 4 pickle buckets as legs. Each has a block of foam on top
>for leveling. (Details snipped)

My husband was able to get, for free, a trundle bed rame from one of his
professors. It has a bolt in the center of the head and footrail, which allows
you take it apart and fold each half up (the half of the headrail and footrail
fold down against the side rail).  We use wooden slats and two pieces of
plywood side-by-side, then cover these with thermarest pads and sheepskins.  It
is very comfortable, and breaks down sufficiently to fit the frame and plywood
easily on the roof of the Jeep Cherokee.  Everything else fits inside the
vehicle.

Brangwayna Morgan

From: David Friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Period Rope Bed Article Just Webbed
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 22:46:30 -0500

Mistress Niccola sent me the citation for the picture (actually a 13th 
c. Byzantine ivory) of a period rope bed that I mentioned earlier. It 
turns out that my school's library has the book, so today I made a child 
sized version of the bed. Pictures and description are webbed at:
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Articles/rope_bed/rope_bed.htm

Both my children want me to make ones for them, so it looks as though 
the design is a success. It is very easy. Once I had bought the 
material, actually making the bed took me about half an hour, and 
Elizabeth and I spent another hour or so putting on the rope. Now all I 
have to do is linseed oil the wood. Then make two more.
-- 
David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html

Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 13:29:45 -0400
From: Tom Rettie <tom at his.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
To: Les Berkley <wogNospaMears at fast.net>
Subject: Re: Period Rope Bed Article Just Webbed

Les Berkley wrote:
> Uh, this is a hard one to ask. Do you know if bedscrews (I mean the
> mechanical device, er, you know, not the act of love...) are pre
> seventeenth century?

From my research I believe that bed bolts are period.  There are examples of
16th century field beds (German) that have the characteristic cover plate for
bed bolts, and I've examined a 16th century knock-down thrown (Turkish) that
also appeared to use bed bolts.  I suspect that this early you would tend to
find them on upper-class furniture, though by the end of the 17th century
they appear to be common.  Being a late 16th century type myself, I suspect
my next field bed will be built with bed bolts.

Fin
(Tom R.)
http://www.his.com/~tom/index.html

Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 13:49:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at efn.org>
Subject: Re: SC - OT - need advice about vinyl inflatable beds

Ok folks, since no one has said it, I will (after all, I'm an Old Queen
and can say what I want!)...

While punctures are probable, and a big problem when they do (though
YMMV), I consider the Really Big Problem to be the *noise*. Vinyl air
mattresses have a peculiar sound all their own- and I don't know 'bout the
rest of you, but if you've ever camped next to an amourous couple, there's
nothing quite like the EE-ee-EE-ee-EE all night long, and then you have to
try to say "Good morning!" without cracking up... think I'd want to
advertise like that? Nooo- it's bad enough when Certain Countesses (then
Princess) round up judges and scorecards to sit outside my pavilion door
when I wander out looking for my tea (taking their lives in their hands, I
might add!) and I had been trying Very Hard to Be Quiet. The knight I was
with thought it was hilarious. (Note use of the *past* tense...)

My 'futon' isn't really a futon- it is a couple layers of foam pads (one
eggcrate) and a feather bed, layered up, covered with one of those
zippered mattress covers, and then covered with a corduroy sleeve. It has
webbing straps sewn to one end that wrap around to roll it up, and for a
temporary bed or tourney bed it is really nice. The layer of feathers
holds heat (nice when a friend got hypothermic recently) and the foam
keeps some spring. It rolls up quite compactly for a double bed and
because the corduroy is upholstery fabric, I don't worry if something
gets on it during transport or if it gets some random champagne or whipped
cream on it. _It WORKS_ and that is what I care about. And it allows me to
be comfy in camp, which along with the tea is a a public safety measure...

telnetting from Alys' again (I'll be back in Portland later tonight!),

'Lainie  

Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 17:17:42 -0400
From: "Siegfried Heydrich" <baronsig at peganet.com>
Subject: Re: SC - OT - need advice about vinyl inflatable beds

    I've also found that a couple of pieces of scrap carpet (6' x 3') work
really well as a sleeping pad, and it's usually free, if you know where to
look. As such, they can be pitched if they get wet or otherwise icky, or you
just don't feel like toting it home.

    Sieggy

Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 03:11:01 -0500
From: "Tristan de Rochebrune" <jrmapes at ckt.net>
Subject: Re: SC - OT - need advice about vinyl inflatable beds

>Has anyone ever used a vinyl inflatable bed?  Are they any good?  Do you
>think they will last long or do you think they will get a puncture in
> them?

I have used inflatable beds for years without much problem. I switched more
out of medical reasons than anything. Being i am in a wheelchair i find it
quite awkward pulling myself up from  the floor of a tent or even a standard
size sleeping cot. Since I already had two  pavalions large enough to easily
accomodate a double bed I purchased two standard size military cots and a
double bed sized air matress. It works out that the cots when set side by
side are within an inch or so of size of a double bed in width and length. I
simply duct tape the bed frames together in a few spots in the center. put
down a 1 inch thick cot pad down on each cot then a heavy blanket over both.
This is mainly for keeping some sort of barrier between the cold under the
bed into the  matress. I works pretty good too. Then to attach the mattress
to the frames (it will scoot around if not secured) i take a military poncho
liner and lay over the mattress.
They have double cords at each corner and center of each edge to tie them
into the poncho. This works well to tie it ot the frame. The mattress will
then not go anywhere you dont want it to. Then its a metter of simple
bedding you choose. Plus you have plenty of under bed storage to keep things
out of the walkway. If you want to get fancy you can also have a couple
sheets of plywood to place on the cots instead of the pads but at that point
it might be just as well to build a bed frame to haul around.

I usually have to replace my mattress about once evry two to three years
(Never over inflate it). This isnt an expensive venture either. I always buy
the Walmart/Kmart $20.00
mattresses or if in a pinch i'll grab one from another sporting goods store
like Bass Pro Shops(they usually run about 8-10 dollars more). With the
blanket under and liner over punctures are few and far between but not
impossible. I have lost 2 mattresses to improper packing (luckily coming
home not going to) and my first mattress i lost to two over zealous kittens
that were determined to see what was inside the darn thing.

Oh yeah, the pads below and liner above also eliminate that rubber sqeaking
sound from after hour adventures. But i do suggest good cots if that is
planned, some of the cheaper aluminum ones will break a leg on you.  If you
want to look more period then some of the wooden bed frames and rope beds
are easy to convert to accomodate the mattress, just make sure you have a
good finish on the wood or a good heavy canvas/banket or two between the
wood and mattress. If you dont, splinters might as well be nails in that
case.

Tristan
Bois d'Arc
Calontir

Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 10:27:53 -0600
From: Joan Nicholson <gryphon at carlsbadnm.com>
Subject: Re: SC -Sleeping WARM!

I've been camping for a lot of years and have found the most indispensable 
covers for cold weather are fake furs.  Get a couple of good sized pieces 
and layer one beneath your bottom sheets/covers and one over.  Make certain 
that the furry side is toward your body.  This traps and holds warmed air 
next to you and you stay incredibly comfortable.  Granted fur is not for 
everyone's persona, but if you make a really sumptuous Renaissance 
coverlet, who's to know that it's fur-lined?  8^)

Prydwen

From: David Friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Period Rope Beds: An Update
Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 00:28:59 GMT

Before Pennsic, I posted (and webbed) some information on period rope 
beds I had made, based on a 13th c. Byzantine ivory depicting the scene 
where Jesus tells a man to take up his bed and walk. The beds I had made 
at that point were scaled for children. Our seven year old and ten year 
old used them all through Pennsic and were very happy with them.

My next project was to scale up the design for an adult. In order to 
make it as widely available as possible, I decided to try to build it 
from materials that were available, reasonably inexpensively, from a 
Home Depot or similar outlet, rather than the oak that I had purchased 
from a (very good) local lumberyard for the earlier beds.

My local Home Depot sels an eight foot long softwood 4x4, untreated, for 
under seven dollars. I cut it into four two foot legs. The largest 
softwood dowels it had were 1 3/8, for a little under a dollar a linear 
foot. I tried using them for the four rails that peg into the legs (see 
the webbed description on my page 
(http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Articles/rope_bed/rope_bed.htm), 
which is an early draft of the article in the new Miscellany). While 
they were able to support my (roughly 190 lb) weight, the side pieces 
bowed so badly that I was seriously worried that if I sat up suddenly, 
or if one of my children decided to jump on the bed while I was lying on 
it, one of the side pieces might break.

So I replaced the side pieces with 2x2's, available at fifty cents a 
foot, using a spokeshave to taper the ends to fit into the holes in the 
legs and to shave down the corners a little along the whole length. I 
put the 2x2's in with the flat side at 45 degrees from the horizontal, 
so as to take advantage of the greater strength on the diagonal.  The 
side piece still bows in under my weight, but much less; I would be 
willing to use the bed, although I would be careful not to throw myself 
into it.

Total cost for wood and rope (3/8" sisal or manila)--about thirty 
dollars. Total time to build (estimate): 1 hour to build it, another 
hour to lace the rope.

Dimensions: 2'x6' bed, about 18" above the ground. It would be a little 
short for a six footer, since you don't want your head and foot right 
against the frame, but should work fine for someone a few inches shorter 
than that.
-- 
David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html

From: David Friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: More on period rope bed design
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 06:18:50 GMT

Some time back, I posted on my experiments making rope beds based on a 
13th c. Byzantine ivory (showing the scene where Jesus tells a man to 
take up his bed and walk). At the time, I had only made child sized 
versions. They worked very well--our children spent Pennsic on two of 
them. 

I have recently finished an adult sized rope bed on the same design. One 
of my objectives was to produce a design that used easily available and 
inexpensive materials--things you could buy at your local Home Depot or 
equivalent. It ended up with about $40 worth of material, including the 
rope. A description and pictures are now webbed at:
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Articles/rope_bed/rope_bed.htm
-- 
David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html

From: "Lyle H. Gray" <gray at cs.umass.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: More on period rope bed design
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 17:56:45 GMT

David Friedman wrote in message ...
><gray at cs.umass.edu> wrote:
>> Seriously, though, I have a rope bed.  I don't know how old it is;
>> it's at least more than 100 years.  The side rails are 3 x 5 hardwood.
>> That is incredibly _solid_ compared to some of the rope beds that I've
>> seen people make for use in the SCA, usually because they don't want
>> to have to lug that kind of weight around to camping events.  But for
>> the mechanics of that bed, it's excellent.  There is no visible
>> flexing of the rails when there are two people in the bed.
>
>What about stretching of the ropes? My old rope bed (made long before I
>saw the period picture, and abandoned many years ago for the slat bed
>that we currently use at Pennsic) was very solid. I don't remember any
>bowing of the side rails. But it still had the problem of enforced
>togetherness--the rope sagged enough so with two people in it, they
>tended to both roll to the middle. There are times when that is a
>desirable feature but others, especially in hot weather, when it is not.
>
>Does your bed still have that characteristic?

[You and I discussed this at Pennsic, Cariadoc, during your class on
the rope bed and the sawhorse table.  I tried to bring the items I
describe below past the Enchanted Ground, but never managed to catch
you at home.]

The bed has this characteristic somewhat, but not as badly as beds
that I've seen made from lighter woods, or with narrower rails.  Also,
ropes don't stretch in a linear fashion, so tightening the ropes daily
for the first few days will help a great deal.

However, this bed came with an added feature:  It has 2 extra legs
that fit in among the ropes, to provide support down the centerline of
the bed.  This divides the bed into two sections, rather than one
large one.

The extra legs are T-shaped, with notches cut into the crossbar to fit
the ropes.  The crossbar is aligned with the length of the bed,
forming a "dashed line" support, as if there were a third rail.

The legs are slightly short, so that when no one is in the bed, they
float about an inch or two above the ground.  Only when weight is
added do the legs actually touch the ground.

<bad ASCII art>

Not to scale, must be viewed with fixed-width font:

+-------------------------------+
+--+                         +--+
   |                         |
+--+                         +--+
+-----------+------+------------+
            |      |
            |      |
            |      |
            |      |
            \      /
             |    |
             \    /
              |  |
              +--+

</bad ASCII art>

I am still working on getting photographs of these extra legs, which I
will post on the web so that others can see them.

Lyle FitzWilliam

Subject: [MedEnc] Portable four poster bed
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:52:40 -0700
From: celticflame at juno.com
To: MedievalEncampments at egroups.com

Hi everyone, as promised...

Lord Taliesin and I have this bed. It is easy to set up, breaks down
completely and is actually very period looking a dramatic fashion...
While those who are really heavy may not be able to use this style, it
will work well for many of us smaller type folk. It seems to have held
the combined weight (about 330 pounds) of us fine!
Needed:
1) Sheet of Very heavy duty plywood. The more you (and spouse) weigh,
the thicker the ply wood!
4) Complete large door hinges w/ pin
4) 4X4 fence posts W/ decorative cut tops (About 4' or 5' tall)
2) 2X6 boards cut to the length you want the bed (You tall folk can
have a long enough bed at last...)
2) 2X6 cut to create the width, (Twin, queen, king, or even calif.
King? How big is your tent!)

also:
2 sections of 2X2, both 8' long.  These are going to be cut to exactly
the same lengths as your runners for both length and width of the bed.
If you are doing a twin you will need less, a Cal.King may need all of
it!

Measure the length of the hinges and then measure the height of the bed
for how high you want it off the ground. Where the bottom of the 2X6
rests should represent the height you want. (We place the bed high enough
so an ice chest can fit under it.)
You are going to attach the post and runner together with the pin and the
hinge, but the hinge should be at the BOTTOM of the 2X6 runner, if it is
at the top, your weight on it will eventually tweak it and cause the
hinge to twist making it difficult to get the pin in and out for
assembly and break down.
This will create a 6" deep inset that the air mattress can rest in. You
will need to line this with old blankets to avoid splinters from poking a
hole in the mattress...or make it easy and take some foam to toss in
and avoid those flats!
  
Mark this on each of the 4X4 posts on one side. Take the pin out of the
hinges and attach one section of each to each end of the cut and ready
2X6's, both the head/foot boards, and the side runners... (Be sure you
are not separating the hinges and putting one half of it on one end and
the other half of the other end, you want to keep the halves marked so
that they can reunite later on the posts!...)  Measure the placement of
each so that the OTHER side of the hinge can be attached to each post.
Now the hard part, cutting the plywood. You are going to have to measure
the bed as a square first. I find that if we section it into two pieces
it seems to work better, with the cut in the center running across the
width rather than down the center. This is because if one of you is
greatly heavy and the other light then the weight load is distributed
more evenly this way...Also, for mobility having it in one piece is just
a pain, the full size piece is awkward   to handle and fits nearly no
where in the trailer. 
Cut it in two for ease of transport and assembly.

After you have the two sections that make up the bed flooring, you will
need to cut out smaller squares at the corner to allow the intrusion of
the bed posts into that square. If at each corner of the plywood (where
the corners of the bed would be, not in the center split) you allow about
2" in each direction it should work, but you may need to try putting it
together and make some minor adjustments so it all fits nicely. 
Remember to have the pins when you go to camp, as well as a hammer and a
heavy punch or long nail that fits in the hinge "hole" (You can also use
a thin cheep Phillips screw driver) to pop up stubborn pins. I have
avoided oiling them because it ends up on the bed clothes.

Now you can stain it, paint it or leave it bare wood as you choose. When
next I post I will tell you my sneaky method for making a false set of
bed curtains that make this whole contraption look like a canopy bed by
suspending the rigging from the center and the outer posts! IF this mess
looked confusing, write and I will try to make the whole thing
clear...ah, I hope! Hope this makes a nice addition to many camps!!

Douceline de la Hay, 
Caid.

Subject: Re: [MedEnc] Need Link to Viking Slat Bed
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 21:00:00 -0500
From: "Steven Jensen" <sjensen at bellatlantic.net>
To: <MedievalEncampments at egroups.com>

http://www.pipcom.com/wareham_forge/obdpl.jpg

Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2006 23:58:45 -0500
From: Charlene Charette <see.sig at for.address>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Seeking a Bed 4 Pennsic

Darter the Chronicler wrote:
>   I am seeking a new bed for camping at Pennsic this year. I have
> received many plans for making your own but due to limited time and a
> lack of tools I am hoping to simply buy one. I am looking for a
> queen-sized frame that stands tall enough to put clothing totes under
> it. We already have a great mattress for on top. A slat bed is
> preferred.
> 
>   If anyone knows where I can buy one I would really appreciate some
> info. I don't always check the posts here so emailing me directly at
> Darter_002 at yahoo.com would be appreciated.
> 
>   Darter (the guy who takes photos: http://www.pbase.com/darter02/sca )

Possibly too late for this gentle, but we bought a new IKEA bed frame 
for Gulf Wars.  It breaks down flat, goes up very easily, has plenty of 
storage underneath, and cost around $100 without the mattress (we 
already that).

--Perronnelle

From: Sluggy! <sluggy9912 at swbell.net>
Date: May 16, 2007 2:00:31 PM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] OT: Bedding dilemma

On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 11:58 -0500, Morgan Blackdragon wrote:
> My lady and I are sick of air mattresses and would like to move to
> something a bit more dependable. What is the best bedding in terms of
> set up / break down, amount of truck space it would take up, etc.

The bedding solution we have applied that has the highest comfort vs
compact ratio seems to be a pair of twin size rollaway beds. They pack
in about the same volume as an equivalent number of cots, sleeping bags,
etc and it's hard to beat for a week-long camp such as Gulf Wars.
Comfort is great enhanced (for us, anyway) by placing a 2' x 6' sheet of
plywood (chipboard, really) between the springs of the bedframe and the
innerspring mattress. This helps keep one's back in much better
alignment, the non-braced bed tending to fold the occupant a few degrees
at the waist. The biggest drawback of these beds is that, as two twin
size beds, they deny one reasonable access to your snuggle buddy.

At Dragonsfire Tor's most recent Guardian, we experimented with using
two cots as the framework, the mattresses from the rollaways on top of
them and on top of the whole assembly, a foam mattress salvaged from our
camper (may it R.I.P.). The sleeping surface was very comfy. The two cot
frames made for slightly high center and edges, which tended to roll us
onto our separate sides of the bed, but rest was very good. This
solution is also rather bulky to pack, mostly due to the volume of the
mattresses.

I think a platform bed with a foam or futon mattress, or even an air
bed, would be very comfy and would pack nicely. Also, anything that gets
one off the ground will greatly help keep the sleeper warm. I have a
futon that at least a couple of events and at least one Gulf War served
as very comfortable sleeping directly on the floor of the tent, but even
an 8 or 10 inch thick futon mattress loses a fair amount of heat to the
ground. Besides, one little tent leak and you've got a terrible mess.
That does not address that it's not as easy for an overweight
40-something fighter with a bunch of new bruises to get up off a
ground-mounted futon mattress as it is to alight from atop a raised bed
of virtually any design. Add to that leg cramps, full bladder and Sunday
morning 'dizziness' and any bed on the ground loses just about all
appeal!

Sluggy!

From: Cam Battaglia <momma_cammie at yahoo.com>
Date: May 16, 2007 2:07:03 PM CDT
To: "'Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc.'" <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] OT: Bedding dilemma

Dear Morgan,

We offer a platform style bed that breaks down into a small enough bundle it
can be loaded in the trunk of a Saturn in twin and queen size.  We also do
the slat beds at what most consider a reasonable cost.  Both of these styles
of beds are suitable for use with either an air mattress or a futon
mattress.  If you are going to be at Steppes Warlord, please take a moment
to drop by our booth (just as for the furniture people).  Several members of
the Kingdom have purchased both styles from us and we have heard no
complaints.

For more information on both style beds, please visit www.barefootboxes.com

YIS,
Ly Katrina Alyse Argo, Proprietress
Barefoot Boxes / Longship Furniture
Protégé to Mesterinde Annes Clotilde von Bamburg
Barony Bordermarch

-----Original Message-----
From: ansteorra-bounces at lists.ansteorra.org
[mailto:ansteorra-bounces at lists.ansteorra.org] On Behalf Of Morgan
Blackdragon
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 11:58 AM
To: Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc.
Subject: [Ansteorra] OT: Bedding dilemma

Hello to the kingdom!

I have a general question and thought I would pose it to everyone to
get the most information I could.

My lady and I are sick of air mattresses and would like to move to
something a bit more dependable. What is the best bedding in terms of
set up / break down, amount of truck space it would take up, etc.

I have heard suggestions on rope beds but I've also heard that the
ropes will stretch and take a lot of maintenance. I have been looking
at platform beds but I am trying to work out an easy (and cheaper) way
to make one myself instead of buying it from a store.

We'll most likely be using a futon mattress so I am mainly looking for
bed frame ideas. What do you use currently, what have you used in the
past, what sort of problems or praises have you come across? Do you
make or have have a good bed frame that you'd like to sell? Any
information, either on the list or directly to me, would be greatly
appreciated.

Thank you for your time,
~Morgan Blackdragon~

From: Susan McMahill <sueorintx at hotmail.com>
Date: May 16, 2007 9:34:32 PM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] OT: Bedding dilemma

It is the nature of all rope to stretch, it's just a matter of how  
much, due to what it is made from, humidity, stress it is subjected  
to, how it is woven or twisted, etc. My lord and I had a bed made  
that has three slats of 2x4s which support two pieces of plywood. We  
use an air mattress because of space constrictions. The only problem  
we have run into is that in cooler weather, the cold air will chill  
the mattress from below. We have resolved that by using a couple of  
flattened cardboard cartons left over from moving, between the  
plywood and the mattress. I also put a mattress pad on the top and  
bottom sides of the mattress to protect from splinters on the bottom  
and to keep that plastic feel from us. Now the air mattress and  
plywood may not be period, but once the bed is made up, you would  
never know.

Lyneya

From: Chris Zakes <dontivar at gmail.com>
Date: May 17, 2007 7:21:53 AM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] OT: Bedding dilemma

> My lady and I are sick of air mattresses and would like to move to
> something a bit more dependable. What is the best bedding in terms of
> set up / break down, amount of truck space it would take up, etc.

We use an old double bed frame with a foam rubber mattress. The frame
itself breaks down to headboard, footboard, metal side rails and
slats. We use a folding sheet of 1/2" plywood instead of a box
spring. Try the local Salvation Army (or similar) store for a cheap,
used bed frame.

We drive a Chevy Astro van, and the mattress goes on top of all the
other gear so someone can sleep comfortably in the back on long trips.

          -Tivar Mondragon

From: Elizabeth Hawkwood <somerlidh at yahoo.com>
Date: May 17, 2007 7:47:36 AM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] OT: Bedding dilemma

If you connect the slat with rope, whether or not the rope stretches is moot. The slats are what gives support.

I have used a rope bed and I loved it because it was comfortable; but it was bundlesome because I kept it all connected. Yes, after about two nights the ropes had to be tightened, but that was no big deal. However, unless two of you like to be together in the middle, a rope bed is best for one person.

I have used individual slats, actually 1x4s cut to fit the width of the bed. Keeping track of and transporting 8 individual 1x4 slats is a little tricky, but the rope connections so it can be rolled up sounds like an excellent idea. This slat method is also great because each slat individually "bends" to help conform to your body, much like bed springs, also making for a comfortable night's sleep. 

Currently, I am using a combination of two 1x6 slats held into the side rails by wedges, with three 3/4" plywood pieces between them. This makes for a very sturdy bed, especially for two large bodies, but there is no "give" as with the individual slats. Photos of the bed can be seen here: http://dragonhawk.5u.com/bed.html. Note: we are not longer in production, but...

For each of the three types of beds, there was/is a futon mattress. No air mattresses for me, thank you.

//Elizabeth Hawkwood
Shire of Loch Ruadh
Cook for HMS Seadrake

From: L T <ldeerslayer at yahoo.com>
Date: May 17, 2007 11:17:37 PM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] OT: Bedding dilemma

Putting it between your mattress and the sheet works quite well also....
so does using sleeping furs ;) or even a space blanket...

L DeerSlayer

David Backlin <edrei at smythkepe.org> wrote: 
I have a slat bed I have used for just over a year. If the weather is going 
to be chilly,  put a light blanket between the slats and your mattress. That 
keeps cold air from making your mattress cold.... expecially if you're using 
an air mattress.

THL Edrei the Quiet
(mka David Backlin)
Merchant and Adventurer
Shire of Smythkepe 

From: "Haraldr Bassi (Ansteorra lists)" <ansteorra at haraldr.drakkar.org>
Date: May 30, 2007 7:57:07 PM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] OT: Bedding dilemma

Building a bed sounds daunting, but really isn't that difficult.
Breaking it down to the essentials it is simply four posts, four (or
more) rails to connect the four corners together and something to keep
your mattress suspended between the rails.

My bed is a recreation of the Gokstad style four post bed using 7 slats
(1x5). It breaks down to a bundle of four 3x3 corner posts, 2 long rails
with double tenons on the end and mortise holes for the slats, two short
rails with single tenons for the head and foot and a pillow catcher
headboard with a weird bracket to mount it on one of the bed ends (all
1x8). The slats and rails ride on top of my Toyota Matrix on the roof
rack along with the pile of tent poles. The 5" foam futon folds
lengthwise and rides inside the Thule cargo pod on the other half of the
roof rack along with the down comforter and down pillows. The four posts
ride inside the car because they are two short to be effective on top of
the car. All the wood is poplar for strength but less weight than
similar sized oak or ash. The futon and down comforter are folded
together and use a couple of heavy bungies to tie the thing together to
make it easier to stuff into the cargo pod.

Note that this design would require the most amount of woodworking
skill. A much simpler design can be created by using standard bed
hardware available from Rockler and similar types of sources. The side
rails above are sized as large as they are because the originals were
even wider.

To make a simple slat bed using modern hardware, obtain a length of
square decent hardwood circa 2" square to make 4 posts. Get two sets of
locking bed rail brackets:
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?Offerings_ID=5783
You will attach them to your four posts and four lengths of 1x6 hardwood
which will be the rails on the bed. The rails will need a 1x2 attached
inside the rail where the slats will ride. You can use some dowel pins
to keep the slats from sliding around and the rails from pulling out.
You can use a half set of brackets to add a headboard. The entire thing
will break down to a pile of slats, four or five rails and four posts.
You can use a tick bag with straw, a futon or even an air mattress on
the bed, though you might want to increase the number of slats to have
less space between if you use an air mattress. You could even design the
frame to use a set of IKEA bed slats which are ultra compact and very
lightweight but require a brace in the center of a full or queen size
bed to share the weight. Slat sizing is always difficult. I tend to
design my beds so that I can stand on the bed and access the top of the
tent and not have to worry about whether my foot is spreading my weight
evenly across two or more slats or whether I'm standing in the center
and breaking the slats. I would never use wood with knots for a slat.
Good lumber yards will sell Poplar for less per board foot than Home
Depot or Lowes will charge for number 2 pine.

I don't monitor the Ansteorra list as regularly as I'd like so if anyone
has questions, please CC them to me directly.

Best of luck,
Haraldr Bassi

<the end>