p-tableware-msg - 2/1/11

Period tableware, knives, spoons, forks, salt cellars. Paintings and other period references to tableware.

NOTE: See also these files: feastgear-msg, utensils-msg, iron-pot-care-msg, pottery-msg, spoons-msg, forks-msg, jugs-pitchrs-lnks, table-fountns-msg.

KEYWORDS: tableware knives forks spoons mugs chalices cups

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: vcarpentier at berksys.com (Victoria Carpentier)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Request:medieval feast
Date: 23 Sep 1994 23:15:06 GMT
Organization: BSI

> >I want recipes to cook a medieval feast, with my kids.  We have read a few
> >>kids books that describe the royal banquet.  They didn't have plates, they

> "They didn't have plates" is an overstatement.  I believe at least the
> wealthier feasters would have trenchers ON plates.  Anyway, many rich

You can find references to wooden and pewter plates in art works and old
writings.  At least for the Rennaissance.  Bowls were also common.

Victoria

From: jtn at cse.uconn.EDU (J. Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Period tableware and dishes
Date: 20 Mar 1995 20:57:59 -0500

Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.

Lady Bronwen Selwyn writes:

> I have been asked to teach a class on Period place settings....
> 
> I am fairly...{18 months}...new to SCA and do not know much more that from
> personal experience.  I would appreciate it if anyone could help give me
> some facts on the matter, in particular, forks.  I have heard so many
> various things on them.  I know about being three pronged and making there
> way from Italy. But there always seems to be a great deal of variance on
> the time, anywhere from beginning in the 13th century to being only late
> period.  Also I am curious as to what social classes tended to use them.

With regard to forks, there was an article by Catherina Sforza d'Agro
in _TI_ about five years ago on forks; someone in your area may have
the edition.  (Sorry, my _TI_s are in Virginia, and I'm in Connecticut.)

However, that isn't where I'd start, in your place.  If you have access
to a serious library, look for (or request by interlibrary loan) the
following volume:

        Furnivall, Frederick J., _Early English Meals and Manners_,
          Early English Text Society Original Series #32, (London:
          Oxford University Press), 1868.

Don't be scared away by the date!  This is an edition of several period
manuscripts on the subject, including John Russell's Boke of Nurture,
Wynkyn de Worde's Boke of Kervynge, and the Boke of Curtasye.  They
include all _kinds_ of details about how tables should be set.  The
scholarship of the edition is as fine as you will find.

Many, many libraries have copies of the Early English Text Society's
series; this is quite accessible.

-- Angharad

From: HPGV80D at prodigy.com (Patricia Hefner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period tableware and dishes
Date: 25 Mar 1995 05:55:21 GMT
Organization: Prodigy Services Company  1-800-PRODIGY

Mikjal--I found reference to "vessels" in the early regulations of the 
College de Sorbonne from around 1260. Napkins are also mentioned, but 
forks are not! ---Isabelle

From: jerryn at crl.com (Kati Norris)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period tableware and dishes
Date: 25 Mar 1995 17:50:14 GMT
Organization: Cathlin ban Gerald / Stargate / Ansteorra

In article <3kvugp$80v at giga.bga.com>, cmwalden at bga.com (Antonio Bastiano) says:
>jtn at cse.uconn.EDU (J. Terry Nutter) says:
>>> I have been asked to teach a class on Period place settings....
>
>Actually, one discovery that I have made about period settings is rather 
>interesting.  We spend a great deal of time discussing flatware, but from
>what I have seen the centerpiece of the table was the salt-cellar.  It 
>was a container for holding salt, and from early period to late period 
>was designed to make a statement.  They were ornate and usually designed
>to look as though they contained more than they did--with pedestals and
>bulky decoration.
>
>I have been assembling a salt cellar from "bits."  It does change the
>point of view of the table.  Gives it a different emphasis.  (It's so
>hard for us to relate to because we throw salt on the street and try not
>to over use it on our food!)
>
>Yours, etc.
>Antonio Bastiano
>or cmwalden at bga.com

We've been trying to get a small wooden (or ceramic) bowl and tiny
spoon for a salt cellar.  But I've also read in Life in Medieval
Cities (or Times) that the salt was put in a piece of bread with a
hole scooped out for the salt.  We'd also like a place to keep pepper
(OOP I know because of the cost back then) and garlic powder on the
table.  It seems that feast fare lacks these items and my lord
(almost) requires them in his food.  Any suggestions will be most
welcome.

Many thanks,
Caitlin ban Gerald
Barony of Stargate / Kingdom of Ansteorra

From: schuldy at abel.harvard.edu (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period tableware and dishes
Date: 28 Mar 1995 20:02:43 GMT

Someone (lost in the attributions) wrote:
  I have been asked to teach a class on Period place settings....

Do take the time to find "The Boke of Nurture" John Russell, reprinted by
the Early English Text Society.  It covers linens, napkins, table service
and more.

It actually explained a few modern things for me.... if you go to a proper
restaurant, the waiter serves from over your left shoulder.  Why?  Boke of
Nurture mentions that a long napkin should be placed on your lap, and over
your left shoulder, so the server doesn't drip with a full plate on you...

Some day, probably not far off, I am going to prepare full table service
that matches what is required by Boke of Nurture.  Teach my friends and
frequent table mates to use it, and have a *good* time.

	Tibor (working from memory, and therefore possibly in error)
-- 
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy at math.harvard.edu)

From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Dinner in Poland in 1220
Date: 5 Jul 1995 17:41:42 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Cc: jenn at sover.net

Jennifer Frizzell (jenn at maple.sover.net) wrote:
: 	Somebody help! I'm trying to recreate a Polish Counts 
: tablesetting in a 1220 period.

Let me begin by saying that Poland of any period is not something that I 
have made a study of, so I can't say much to the specifics of this 
question, but I can, perhaps, give advice on the approach.

:  Now let me give you everything I know so 
: far. Glass wasn't introduced to poland until 1500,

I would be very surprised to discover that this was true. Even if Poland 
did not develop a significant local glass industry until this time 
(something I find improbable), imports of luxury glass items would still 
be expected.

: lace wasn't introduced 
: until 1480 and silver smithing was in it's glory at about 1200 so it 
: seems obvious that silver and wood are the predominate products used in 
: tableware.

What about ceramics? Horn? Baser metals such as bronze and pewter?

: 	The real questions lay in what utensils were used.  What were the 
: designs in the plates and what kind of plates were used.
: 	Also, since most of the main food animals were goat-sized or 
: smaller, then most of the plates would only be about 1ft in diameter or 
: less.

Does this really follow? Plates for personal service are rarely designed 
for entire animals. If the meat has been parboiled, hacked into gobbets, 
and cooked into a sauce, how does the size of the animal relate to the 
size of the plate?

:  Also, pitchers for milk would be small due to the lack of 
: refrigeration capabilities (you try and use it up before it gets bad).

Pitchers are generally used for temporary transport and ease of service. 
To this end, the functional constraints tend to be how easy they are to 
lift and manoever and how much of the contents is likely to be wanted at 
a particular event. Again, I think you are focussing on irrelevant 
factors, which makes it hard to come to accurate conclusions.

The best places to begin, if you want to learn something about 13th 
century Polish tableware would be illustrated catalogs of relevant 
archaeological digs, and artistic representations of the period. Are 
there illuminated manuscripts dating from Poland in this era? Many 
biblical scenes involve eating, and the common custom in such 
illuminations is to reflect contemporary (not actual Biblical) practice. 
I note that one of my costuming books has illustrations from something 
referred to as "The Maciejowski Bible" dating from the 13th century (in 
the collection of the Pierpont Morgan Library). While the name appears to 
be Polish, it isn't clear whether it refers to the books original 
provenance or simply to some later owner, but it would certainly be a 
place to start.

These types of approaches will be far more profitable in the long run 
than conclusions based on speculation alone.

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn

From: mwl at celsiustech.se (Matt Larsen)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Dinner in Poland in 1220
Date: 7 Jul 1995 11:03:43 +0200
Organization: CelsiusTech AB

Jennifer Frizzell (jenn at maple.sover.net) wrote:
: 	Somebody help! I'm trying to recreate a Polish Counts 
: tablesetting in a 1220 period.  Now let me give you everything I know so 
: far. 

I've been looking at table service in the 14th and 15th centuries for
a while, although mostly in France and England.  So some of what I know
may apply, but I can't really promise anything :-)  

: Glass wasn't introduced to poland until 1500, lace wasn't introduced 
: until 1480 

To the best of my knowledge this is correct.  They seem to have table cloths
and sometimes napkins, though.

: and silver smithing was in it's glory at about 1200 so it 
: seems obvious that silver and wood are the predominate products used in 
: tableware.

Others have suggested pottery, and it is certainly true that pottery was
in use throughout the period, so this may be an alternative for you.  But
I believe you are also correct in believing that any wealthy person would
have eaten off of or at least drunk from silver.  The goblet or cup as
we know it seems to have been a relatively late fashion, and it seems
that most drinking was done from bowls.  These are known as "hanaps"
when made from silver (or gold), and are sometimes decorated with engraving
or other forms of decoration.  Wooden drinking bowls were called "mazurs"
and again are sometimes elaborately decorated, usually with carving or a
foot or rim of silver.  Various shapes were used, but a common one is
very similar to what we think of as a normal bowl with a bit of an upward
bulge in the center.

: 	The real questions lay in what utensils were used.  What were the 
: designs in the plates and what kind of plates were used.

As for utensils, knives come in two types: large (approx. 1 foot long)
carving and serving knives and smaller eating knives.  Almost all eating
knives seem to have been single edged, and the most common shape is a
straight back edge extending from the top of the handle to the point,
with the blade curving down slightly from the handle underneath and
then up to meet the back at the point (Hmm.  I'm not sure this is
very clear.  You really need to see a picture of one...).  Forks were
relatively uncommon, usually two tined, and seem to have been mostly
used for eating sticky deserts.  Spoons have a wide, shallow bowl,
almost too large to fit in the mouth, and a straight handle extending
back to (usually) some kind of decorative knop.  Handles tend to be
slim and long in England and France, and short and thick in Scandanavia.
Your guess is as good as mine which style prevailed in Poland :-)
Surviving spoons are almost always in silver, and wills and such
suggest that even most middle class people would have owned a few
silver spoons.

: 	Also, since most of the main food animals were goat-sized or 
: smaller, then most of the plates would only be about 1ft in diameter or 
: less.  

In the 16th century plates seem to be mostly large, between 12" and 16",
and surviving examples are as likely to be pewter as they are to be
silver.  There are very few existing plates (that I've found) from
before the 16th c., but iconographical evidence suggests that plates
were often relatively small, more like 7" or so.  One usually sees
servers in the same pictures, so I expect that as soon as one ate
the relatively small amount on ones plate, a server would cut something
new to put on it.  There are some extant wooden plates, and they tend
to be small, again about 7" - 8" in diameter.

: Also, pitchers for milk would be small due to the lack of 
: refrigeration capabilities (you try and use it up before it gets bad).

I think pitchers came in all sizes.  Most of the surviving ones in
precious metals are small, but there are large pottery and leather
jugs.  There are also brass pitchers, and they are often paired with
a basin and would have been used for washing hands before eating.  I
have also seen many pewter pitchers in various sizes, but they mostly
seem to be from the 16th c., although this may simply be that earlier
ones were melted down and remade.  It seems, by the way, that pewter
in general was very popular in the 16th century, because of the rise
of the middle class who were trying to imitate more wealthy people
who ate off of silver.

Candlesticks, by the way, were usually of cast brass or bronze, and
were of the pricket variety until quite late in period (about the
latter half of the 16th c.).

: 	If anyone has any information which could help me in this area, 
: please forward it to Jenn at sover.net

This is obviously a very quick sketch of this topic.  If anyone has
specific questions, let me know.  I can't cite a lot of reference
works, although I've got a few good ones.  Most of what I've learned
I've found out by haunting museums (I've got some interesting photos,
but... :-)

Geoffrey Mathias
mjl at rational.com

From: mjc at telerama.lm.com (Monica Cellio)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period wares (was jurying merchants)
Date: 2 Jul 1996 10:35:24 -0400
Organization: Telerama Public Access Internet, Pittsburgh, PA USA
...
And a couple years ago at Pennsic I actually had a 
merchant show me documentation.  (This was for those utensils that 
have tines (like a fork) at one end and a spoon at the other; turns 
out they're 9th-century Anglo-Saxon, not a modern invention.  And not 
nearly as difficult to eat with as you might think.)

Ellisif
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~mjc/ellisif.html

From: Patsy Dunham <Patsy.R.Dunham at CI.Eugene.OR.US>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period knives and shoes (was jurying merchants)
Date: 3 Jul 1996 15:56:44 GMT
Organization: City of Eugene, Eugene OR USA

For a good Norse eating knife, check your local hardware store.  We have 
found Swedish knife blanks (blade is about 4 1/2", tang is 3 1/2") that 
look exactly right; all you have to do is add a handle.  (they're 
imprinted with the co. name and "Suede" in a little round pattern near 
the hilt end of the blade-- sorry I can't be more specific but mine's at 
home, not at work)

For period shoes (esp. Norse), short of do-it-yourselfing, you can also 
try taking your pattern to the local hippie marketplace (we have a BIG 
Saturday Market here about 9 mo. of the year) and look for the best 
moccasin/boot maker... 

Chimene
chimenedes at aol.com

From: bhw at psyc.nott.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Table settings
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 13:17:59 +0100
Organization: Cripps Computing Centre, The University of Nottingham

Kristine E. Maitland wrote:
> I'm entering a contest (next Septentrian 12th Night) which involves
> setting a table.  Can anyone recommend books/journal articles/primary
> sources on table setting (ceramics, glassware, silverware, linens etc...)
> circa early 1500s Italy.

I have seen an absolutely superb book for this - it contained hundreds
of pictures from renaissance italian paintings to illustrate
domestic architecture, including table settings. One thing I remember
particularly is that a common drinking vessel is a clear straight
sided glass - it looks exactly like a modern "highball" glass.
Now, annoyingly, I can't find the reference: if anyone could help
out I'd be grateful.

Caitlin

From: odlin at reed.edu (Iain Odlin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Table settings
Date: 25 Sep 1996 09:31:47 GMT

Kristine E. Maitland wrote:
> I'm entering a contest (next Septentrian 12th Night) which involves
> setting a table.  Can anyone recommend books/journal articles/primary
> sources on table setting (ceramics, glassware, silverware, linens etc...)
> circa early 1500s Italy.

  *The* book to look for:  The Italian Renaissance Interior 1400-1600
  by Peter Thornton.  ISBN 0-8109-3459-0.  Nearly five hundred pictures in
  four hundred pages.  Excellent source, hard to find.

  -Iain, who got his copy at a used bookstore for $15 from the "It's been here
   for a long time" bin
------------------------- Iain Odlin, odlin at reed.edu -------------------------
                      42 Clifton Street, Portland ME 04101

From: pat at lalaw.lib.CA.US (Pat Lammerts)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Table settings
Date: 25 Sep 1996 19:47:42 -0400

It was written:
>  *The* book to look for:  The Italian Renaissance Interior 1400-1600
>  by Peter Thornton.  ISBN 0-8109-3459-0.  Nearly five hundred pictures in
>  four hundred pages.  Excellent source, hard to find.
>
>  -Iain, who got his copy at a used bookstore for $15 from the "It's been here
>   for a long time" bin

Boy, what a bargain you got, Iain!

The book is still in print and, per Books in Print, it is $125.00.

Here are the details:

Thornton, Peter, 1926-
  The Italian Renaissance interior, 1400-1600 / Peter Thornton.
New York : H.N. Abrams, 1991.
  407 p. : ill. (some col.), plans ; 27 cm.

  ISBN 0810934590

or, since Kristine is in Canada, here is the British version for L65.00:

Thornton, Peter.
  The Italian Renaissance interior, 1400-1600 / Peter Thornton.
London : Weidenfeld and Nicolson, c1991.
  407 p. : ill. (some col.), plans ; 27 x 27 cm.

  ISBN 0297830066

Huette
(pat at lalaw.lib.ca.us)

From: deewolff at aol.com (DeeWolff)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Table settings
Date: 25 Sep 1996 20:17:59 -0400

"The Art of Dining- A History of Cooking and Eating" Sara Paston-Williams
( The National Trust1993 ), I got it from Poison Pen Press in the East
Kingdom. Excellent background on food, tables set, and service of such.
Wish you luck !! Andrea MacIntyre of Ostgardr

From: afn03234 at freenet2.afn.org (Ronald L. Charlotte)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Table settings
Date: 27 Sep 1996 11:13:56 GMT

bq676 at torfree.net (Kristine E. Maitland) wrote:
> I'm entering a contest (next Septentrian 12th Night) which involves
> setting a table.  Can anyone recommend books/journal articles/primary
> sources on table setting (ceramics, glassware, silverware, linens etc...)
> circa early 1500s Italy.  Articles on the same for the Mamluks and the
> Ottoman empire would also be appreciated.

> Ines

The first that comes to mind is Castiglione's _Book of the Courtier_.

Another is by R. Strong, _Splendour at Court: Renaissance Spectacle and 
Illusion_.  I have heard recommended _Savouring the Past: the french 
Kitchen and Table from 1300 to 1789_ by B. Ketchan Wheaton, but I've not 
yet had a chance to read it.
--
     al Thaalibi ---- An Crosaire, Trimaris
     Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
     afn03234 at afn.org

Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 14:01:18 -0500 (CDT)
From: timbeck at ix.netcom.com
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Chalice, goblet, something

>It is my intentions to attempt a drinking vessel and maybe a bowl and plate
>in brass for Queens Prize.  Just looking for documation ideas.  Know of any
>good books?
>Ld Malgar Thorvik

I found a great book for documentation of high-end medieval cups, &c. is
_Secular Goldsmith's Work in Medieval France: A History_ by Ronald W.
Lightbown, F.S.A.  ISBN 0 500 99027 1  You might be able to get it from 
Amazon.  Also there is a medieval catalog of 1940 (or something to that
effect) put out by the Museum of London which has a some pieces which
represent the more common items of the time.  This book covers many topics
and the cup info may be sparse.  Beakers are a cool item which seem to
have come in all levels of cost and quality and are certainly under
represented in the SCA....So are most metal cups for that matter...

Hope this helps,
Timothy

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:57:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: Mark Weiland <gryfon at execpc.com>
Subject: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #208

>From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

I must apologise for not making it clear that most, but not all, of my
research is focused on the Italian Peninsula of the 13th thru 17th centuries.

>Hmm. While in general I agree with you, but when you say that
>presentation is more vital to an accurate recreation of period food than
>we give it credit for, you lose me. It's not that I don't feel
>presentation is important, but it sounds, from what you say, that you
>are superimposing modern values on our medieval or renaissance
>counterparts.

While many good cooks in the Society go to great lengths to ensure well
researched recipes, how many times is the hall and table setting catch as
catch can. The first part of Cristoforo da Messisbugo's BANCHETTI is
dedicated to who came to dinner, how to set the hall, how many table cloths
to place on the table, how many silver candlesticks should be used, how many
silver salt cellars to use, and more in the same vain. When Montaigne
visited Rome in 1580 he wrote"In front of those to whom they want to do
particular honor,who are seated beside of opposite the master, they place
big silver squares on which their salt cellar stands, of the same sort they
put before the great in France. On top of this there is a napkin folded in
four and on this napkin is the bread, knife, fork, and spoon."
In Sano di Pietro's (1406-1481) painting the ST. PETER HEALING PETRONELLA
one can see wonderful clear glass carafes and glasses filled with red wine.
There are more paintings that help us to come to a more clear understanding
of what a period table and meal would have looked like and I contend that
the guests (nobles) did not bring their own plates,linens and candles and
that the food was presented in the most appealing way possible.

<snip>

Balthazar

Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:17:55 -0500
From: vjarmstrong at aristotle.net (Valoise Armstrong)
Subject: Re: SC - Carving books?

Several years ago I got a great German book on carving through interlibrary
loan. The title says that it's about table customs to the end of the Middle
Ages, but as I recall there was quite a lot about carvers and  the art of
carving. It's a good secondary source and if you can handle the German
worth looking up. There are also some great photographs of dishes and
eating utensils.

Schiedlausky, Gunther. Essen und trinken: Tafelsitten bis zum Ausgang des
Mittelalters.
        Munich: Prestel Verlag, 1956.

Valoise

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:37:26 EDT
From: freyja1 at juno.com (Timothy A Whitcomb)
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Wooden feast gear documentation

>A question has been put to me by a member of my canton, as to
>documentation for a set of wooden feast gear she would like to make -
>what it might look like (plates vs. trenchers, for instance), what kind
>of wood to use, etc. She has been having some trouble finding adequate
>resources locally.
>
>Rhodri ap Hywel

This may help just a little: in "medieval Pottery in Britain AD900-1600"
by McCarthy and Brooks, there is a chapter on alternatives to clay wares
and I believe there is a photo of a wooden platter.

Hroar

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 08:53:47 -0500
From: vjarmstrong at aristotle.net (Valoise Armstrong)
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Wooden feast gear documentation

>A question has been put to me by a member of my canton, as to
>documentation for a set of wooden feast gear she would like to make -
>what it might look like (plates vs. trenchers, for instance), what kind
>of wood to use, etc. She has been having some trouble finding adequate
>resources locally.

There are some pictures in Essen und Trinken: Tafelsitten bis zum Ausgang
des Mittelalters by Guenther Schiedlausky that show round wooden plates.
These are simple rounds of wood with no rim of any kind - soupy stuff would
run off the sides. One group of plates is completely unadorned, but there is
another set that has scenes painted in the center, like sewing, harvesting,
etc. from different months of the year. There is lettering running around
the the outside the painted scene. Schiedlausky doesn't say what kind of
wood it is, but hardwood seems reasonable. Should be easy to make.

Have you looked at any Brueghel peasant paintings? He depicts feasts in
simple settings, maybe he shows some wooden tableware along with the
pottery.

Valoise

Date: 21 May 98 09:06:12 AST
From: RMcGrath at dca.gov.au
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Wooden feast gear documentation

I would suggest that you look at The Wedding.
http://familiar.sph.umich.edu/cjackson/bruegel1/p-brueg1-7.htm

In the foreground you can see table ware.

Rakhel

Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 04:59:48 -0400
From: Melanie Wilson <MelanieWilson at compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Wooden feast gear

I just remembered I saw an article on turning of bowls etc in a UK
re-enacting  mag some time again as I remember most were turned wet, bowls
were popular not platters or plates as the wood warped and a platter then
became unusable. If you want more I think there is some refs etc, let me
know and I'll try to find it , otherwise it might be on the web page of the
mag. Search for CALL TO ARMS they have a web page.

Mel

Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 19:56:22 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - feastware question

kiriel at cybergal.com writes:
<< Don't forget everyone; glassware has been around forever.  Jugs, mugs,
 glasses, bowls, the lot. People seem to forget glass and only go for
 ceramic, metal or wood. . .

 More glass more glass!

 Kiriel >>

This is correct. The Cloisters in NYC has a collection of medieval glassware
on display that is to die for. The intricacy of the patterns is astounding.
They even have salt cellars of hand blown crystal that look like ships with
rigging and sales all done in glass. There is a tendency for some
recreationists to wrongly emphasize the simple wares when the reality of
medieval culture is exactly the opposite.

Ras

Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 19:58:20 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - feastware question

parlei at algonet.se writes:
<< Considering the most likely price of extensive amounts of glass in "my"
 time and place I would not have been using much of it.  >>

According to the tour guide at the Cloisters glass plates, etc. were 'common'
enough that wagons went around collecting the broken glass dishes so they
could be remelted and fashioned into more glassware. This does not indicate
that they were either rare of terribly expensive.

Ras

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 16:02:23 -0500
From: capriest at cs.vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman)
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: RE: placemat size? [SCA]

Eachna wrote:
>My question (I realize it's not *your* question, but, just to clarify since
>I started the thread), is not about the "periodness" of things. It's about
>what size placemat people use with feast gear.

The ones I just wove are about 11x17" finished size.  We use placemats every
day at home (although never at feasts), and that's a fairly typical size for
boughten ones also.

>OTOH, it would be interesting to learn when placemats were developed...my
>first guess would be whenever tablecloths were first valued for their
>decorative purposes...(that is, to catch drips and stains from food
>dropping off plates)

"Valued for their decorative purposes" is, I suspect, in the eye of the
beholder. ;>  After all, linen cloths, even plain ones, can be easier on the
eyes than boards over trestles!  And they're easier to launder than pretty
much anything out there; linen seems to thrive on hot water and soap.

Copious napkins, towels, and cloths were used at table (read some of the
fifteenth-century English treatises about table service in _Early English
Meals and Manners_--it's fascinating!), perhaps obviating the need for
specialized mats.  The sixteenth century was a high point in the weaving of
elaborate linen damasks for table use, but I've never heard of a placemat
that early.

Carolyn Priest-Dorman                 Thora Sharptooth
capriest at cs.vassar.edu                Frostahlid, Austrriki

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 09:36:10 SAST-2
From: "Christina van Tets" <ivantets at botzoo.uct.ac.za>
Subject: SC - goblet covers

Do the covers have to be cloth?  There are plenty of secular goblet
pictures which have a matching lid (not quite hemispherical, with
knob).  The only time I have seen a cloth cover is the square kind
that covers the paten dish (for holding the bread) when it is on top
of the chalice in a communion set, and I don't think that's awfully
appropriate.

Cairistiona

Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:43:50 -0500
From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Spoon Book from Coventry

Well, here goes another citation from Magnus -
(If we all do enough of them maybe we can all get authentic.
I remember when you couldn't find a decent sword.)

I got a book today from a used bookstore in Scotland:

Pewter Spoons and Other Related Material of the 14th - 17th Centuries.
By Sara Muldoon and Roger Brownsword
In the collection of the Herbert Art Gallery and Museum Coventry.
Published Apparently by the City of Coventy Leisure Services
ISBN 0901606286 Paper, no date. Looks very recent though.
Large Format, a bit over 30 pages with good illustrations and
schematics of spoon handle shapes. Shows the major bottom part of
one mold quite clearly. 31 large clear illustrations.
Has a detailed analysis of alloys including latten, and
a short discussion of molding and casting techniques and materials.
Page and a third biblography.

If anyone learns of any other books from this series I'd like
to have them cite them.

Magnus

Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 12:34:37 +0100
From: Thomas Gloning <Thomas.Gloning at germanistik.uni-giessen.de>
Subject: SC - pictures of feasts

Lady Diana said:
<<< Maybe others will have time to offer sources from other countries >>>

Jean-Louis Flandrin/Carole Lambert, 'Fêtes gourmandes au Moyen Age'
(Paris 1998) has pictures with stuff mostly from French collections, but
also from Swiss collections, from the Netherlands and from Belgium. A
beautiful book.

Best, Thomas
(I have not seen this one up to now: E. Schirmer: Die deutsche Irdenware
des 11.-15. Jahrhunderts im engeren Mitteldeutschland. Jena 1939.)

Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 10:16:01 EST
From: RuddR at aol.com
Subject: SC - pictures of feasts

Gwyneth asks:
"I have a friend who does pottery and has volunteered to make me some
plates, bowls, etc. to use when I do period displays, meals, and the like.
What I need are pictures to show him.  Could anyone recomend a few good
source books or perhaps a web site or two?"

Check out Master Huen's "Feast for the Eyes" at:
http://www.labs.net/dmccormick/medpix.htm

and also "The Age of Charles V, Sports and Entertainment" from the
Biblioteque Nationale de France, at:
http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/themes/t_4/ast_4_02.htm

Rudd Rayfield

Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 08:32:01 +1100
From: Lorix <lorix at trump.net.au>
Subject: SC - Interesting Period Gadget for washing hands

I have a very big failing, I Luuuuuuv gadgets.
Now my eye was caught by a particularly impressive
mid 16th Century doodad for the washing of hands.

The picture was in a book by Alison Sim (Food &
Feast in Tudor England).  Basically the major form
of it was similar to a modern toy railway engine,
only this little beauty looked to be made out of
gold.  In its middle was placed a small rounded
barrel with a spigot (smaller scale, but like the
wooden barrels that wine is aged in).

According to the accompanying text, the internal
mechanism was still in perfect working order and
it was supposed to roll slowly down the feasting
table oozing droplets of rosewater so that people
could clean their hands.

It was extremely decorative & I thought it was
rather nifty.  However my husband, a man of
infinite patience with my whims, has refused to
even contemplate the idea of making it.  So I
thought there might be someone out there of an
engineering bent who might like to try it.  It
would certainly liven up high table, think of the
disastrous possibilities that could occur with
ummm inept engineering ;-)

Lorix

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 20:36:53 -0600
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Tablewear

At 3:28 PM -0800 3/10/00, lilinah at earthlink.net wrote:
>I know that the prevailing wisdom is that the forks wouldn't really 
>have been used in Elizabethan England, but at small fairs we buy our 
>food, often Thai stir fried noodles (don't ask), since i'm primarily 
>vegetarian, and forks come in handy.
>
>But a late period Byzantine reenactor says on his website that there 
>is evidence of two-pronged forks at that time (i think around the 
>time of the of the Seljuk Turks - what's that, 11th to 13th C., i 
>think)
>http://www-personal.une.edu.au/~tdawson/tware.html

The Cleveland Museum of Art has a Byzantine fork; I don't remember 
the date, but I think it is earlier than the 11th century. The 
British Museum has an Anglo-saxon fork and spoon set. The Victoria 
and Albert Museum published a pamphlet on tableware, which contains a 
reproduction of what the author thinks is the first painting showing 
someone eating with a fork; my vague memory is that it is about 13th 
century.

The situation, so far as I can tell, is that forks existed through 
most of our period in Europe, as rather uncommon eating 
utensils--think of a modern equivalent as a fondue fork, which exists 
but isn't used all that often. In the seventeenth century (I think) 
they shifted to being part of the standard set of eating utensils. I 
believe that forks also existed as cooking utensils through most of 
our period.

Hope that helps.  So far as practical solutions to eating stir fried 
noodles in persona, I would eat them with my (right) hand--as, I 
gather, would you. I think eating things that can be eaten with the 
fingers but nowadays are not is a useful touch--one more element that 
suggests how someone from a different culture would respond to things.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:24:19 -0400
From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler at chesapeake.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Plastic Ware (change to Forks??)

Oh goodie....another thread, sort of.  I ran into something Saturday at the
event I cooked, that I thought you all might like ti "chew on".  One of our
metal workers, and a very talented one who does serious research, I might add,
was selling a thing that I christened a "spork".  it is brass, has an early
spoon shape on one end and 3-tined fork on the other.  When I asked, he said he
had documented it as 9th century Anglo-Saxon, and quoted me chapter and verse.
Unfortunately, as I didn't have anything to write on...and my mind was a little
toward the "pudding" stage at that point so I can't remember what he said, I
don't remember where the "chapter and verse" came from.  Any thoughts????

Kiri

Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:46:13 EDT
From: RuddR at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Plastic Ware (change to Forks??)

Kiri writes, 
> Oh goodie....another thread, sort of.  I ran into something Saturday at the
> event I cooked, that I thought you all might like ti "chew on".  One of our
> metal workers, and a very talented one who does serious research, I might  
> add, was selling a thing that I christened a "spork".  it is brass, has an early
>  spoon shape on one end and 3-tined fork on the other.  When I asked, he said 
> he had documented it as 9th century Anglo-Saxon, and quoted me chapter and  verse.
>  Unfortunately, as I didn't have anything to write on...and my mind was a 
> little
>  toward the "pudding" stage at that point so I can't remember what he said,  I
>  don't remember where the "chapter and verse" came from.  Any thoughts???

_European Spoons Before 1700_, by John Emery, John Donald Publishing, Ltd, 
1976.

P.63 (Northern Europe):
"Of slightly later date are two unfinished combined spoons and forks from a 
hoard of coins and silver scrap dug up at Sevington in Wiltshire and dated 
about A. D. 850. . . .the earliest appearance of a definite two-pronged fork 
[in Northern Europe]. . . ."

Rudd Rayfield

Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 19:04:43 -0700
From: "Wanda Pease" <wandapease at bigfoot.com>
Subject: RE: SC - Quinces (and a query about an eating utensil)

>  On a completely different subject, does anyone remember an eating utensil
>  which was mentioned on the List a few weeks ago?  It was a spoon on one end
>  and a 3 tined fork on the other.  The poster said that she (I think) had
>  seen it at an event and had been assured by its owner that it was a
>  documentable Anglo-Saxon design.  If anyone can give me further information
>  on this, I would greatly appreciate it.

	I have a book: _The Gold, Silver and Other Non-Ferrous Alloy Objects from
Hamwic: The Southampton Finds Volume Two_ by David A. Hinton ISBN:
0-7509-1167-0.  On page 57 it shows several spoon/forks.  They are pointy
spoon bowls (rather like a grapefruit spoon) with a two tine fork on the
other end.  These are definitely not forks for holding something down while
carving it.  They remind me a bit of a fork for getting pickles or olives
out of the bottle.
The introduction to the monograph states that most of the finds date from
between 700-850 CE.
	It also states that:  "A silver 'spoon ' and 'fork' combination, and a
silver double spoon were in the Sevington hoard, with coins of c. 850
(Wilson 1964, nos 67 and 68)."

Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:01:36 EDT
From: RuddR at aol.com
Subject: SC - Re: Trenchers Request

Elianora Mathewes writes:
>  I'm looking for images of a particular type of wooden
>  trencher used in the 16th century: the primary characteristic
>  of the type is that it has poetry or Biblical quotations and
>  painted decorations on the bottom; the top should be of plain
>  wood.  It was used for serving fruit, and is sometimes
>  referred to as a "roundel."
>  
>  If you could refer me to specific books or even a museum
>  website with pictures of this sort of trencher, I'd be very grateful.

There is a fine picture by Georg Flegel, German, ca. 1600s showing lots of 
goodies a stack of roundels, glasses and plates, some spoons and a nice 
knife, at:
http://sunsite.auc.dk/cgfa/f/p-flegel3.htm

Rudd Rayfield

Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 19:47:09 -0500
From: Angie Malone <alm4 at cornell.edu>
Subject: SC - Platina and setting a table

  I am probably losing my mind with less than a week to go before I cook
the feast, but I have gotten interested in what tables settings were like
and even interested in napkin folding but I am digressing.     : - )

  In Platina it says in Book I section 12  On setting a table:
  
  One must set a table according to the time of year; in winter, in
enclosed and warm places, in summer, in cool and open places.  In spring,
flowers are arranged in the dining room and onthe table; in winter, the air
should be redolent with perfumes; in summer, the floor should be stewn with
fragrant boughs of trees, of vine and of willow, which freshen the dining
room, in autumn, let the ripe grapes, pears and apples hang from the
ceiling.  Napkins should be white and the tablecloths spotless, because, if
they were otherwise, they  should arouse squeamishness and take away the
desire to eat.  Let a servant scrub the knives andd sharpen their edges so
that diners will not be delayed by dullness of iron.  The rest of the
dishes should be scrubbed clean, whether they are earthen or silver, for
this meticulous care arouses even a sluggish appetite.

===
My question is this, if I was to assume that we are now in winter, what
kind of perfumes would we be putting in the air?

	Angeline

Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 18:28:05 -0700
From: Serian <serian at uswest.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Platina and setting a table

> My question is this, if I was to assume that we are now in winter, what
> kind of perfumes would we be putting in the air?
> 
>         Angeline

 My guess would be things like balsam, cedar, frankincense, that sort of thing - woody things.
Serian

Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 13:24:09 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Trenchers Oh my!

Apparently the broken and damaged dishes were most often replaced before
Lent and Easter and Christmas and Epiphany when the households expected host
the greatest number of guests and personages of rank, so the house would be
displayed at its best.  

Bear  

> >Ceramic bowls were replenished once or twice a year, just before the high
> >Holy Days.
> 
> This piqued my curiosity. Could you explain this bit please? Was
> there a reason this particular time?
> 
> Iasmin

Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 21:32:20 -0500
From: rmhowe <MMagnusM at bellsouth.net>
To: medieval-leather at egroups.com
Subject: Re: [medieval-leather] In regards to Esther Cameron's  Leather Scabbard 
 Thesis

Moore, Simon: Cutlery for the Table / A History of British Table and 
Pocket Cutlery 1999 The Hallamshire Press, Broom Hall, 
Sheffield S10 DR England  Amazon.UK ISBN 1874718563    
320 pp.  35.00 GBP, Shipping  4.95 GBP  Total:  39.95 GBP total.

Magnus, who does full citations so people can find the damn things.

Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:16:56 -0500 (EST)
From: Jenne Heise <jenne at mail.browser.net>
Subject: SC - Eating Utensils website

Reviewed in LIIWEEK:

The History of Eating Utensils -
    http://www.calacademy.org/research/anthropology/utensil/ 
        Learn about the history of common eating utensils. This
        site covers knives, forks, spoons, chopsticks, and
        portable cutlery. Includes graphics and a bibliography.
        See also A History of Eating Utensils in the West: A
        Brief Timeline. From the Rietz Food Technology
        Collection in the Anthropology Department at the
        California Academy of Sciences.
- -- 
Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise	      jenne at mail.browser.net

Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 10:26:46 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Eating Utensils website

>Reviewed in LIIWEEK:
>
>The History of Eating Utensils -
>     http://www.calacademy.org/research/anthropology/utensil/
>         Learn about the history of common eating utensils. This
>         site covers knives, forks, spoons, chopsticks, and
>         portable cutlery. Includes graphics and a bibliography.
>         See also A History of Eating Utensils in the West: A
>         Brief Timeline. From the Rietz Food Technology
>         Collection in the Anthropology Department at the
>         California Academy of Sciences.
>--
>Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise	      jenne at mail.browser.net

Unfortunately, it isn't very reliable. Under forks, they have:

An Englishman named Thomas Coryate brought the first forks back 
to England after seeing them in Italy during his travels in 1608.
- -- 
David Friedman
ddfr at best.com

Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 13:04:49 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Eating Utensils website

I believe someone on the list commented that the earliest forks known in
England are from the excavations of Danish York, however nothing is known
about how they were used.

For a short, but interesting piece on forks quoting Coryate, try:

http://www.byu.edu/ipt/projects/middleages/LifeTimes/TableFork.html

Bear

Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:48:47 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Eating Utensils website

Try these:

Bailey, C.T.P. Knives and Forks. London: The Medici Society, 1927.

Boger, Ann. Consuming Passions: The Art of Food and Drink. Cleveland:
Cleveland Museum of Art, 1983.

Flanagan, Laurence. Ireland's Armada Legacy. Dublin: Gill and Macmillan,
1988.

Giblin, James Cross. From Hand to Mouth. New York: Thomas Y. Crowell, 1987.

Gruber, Alain. Silverware. New York: Rizzoli International Publications,
Inc., 1982.

Harrison, Molly. The Kitchen in History. New York: Charles Scribner's Sons,
1972.

Hayward, J.F. English Cutlery, sixteenth to eighteenth century. London:
Victoria and Albert Museum, 1956.

Henisch, Bridget Ann. Fast and Feast, Food in Medieval Society. University
Park, PA: The Pennsylvania State University Press, 1976.

Millikin, William M. "Early Christian Fork and Spoon", The Bulletin of the
Cleveland Museum of Art, 44(Oct. 1957), 185+.

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:33:56 -0800
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at efn.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Tableware

>Really?  Much of my research indicates that in 12th century England and
>France, they rarely used plates, but used trenchers instead, and that that
>practice carried over for well over a century afterwards.  Certainly there
>are trenchers shown in, among other places, the feasting scenes of the Duc de
>Berry's book of hours, which is 14th century, I believe, and depicts banquets
>served for nobles.
>Certainly there is metalware (mostly utensils and covered hanaps or drinking
>vessels) depicted on the tables, but I don't recall seeing plates that
>frequently for personal eating.  Certainly they appear as serving utensils.
>
>Brangwayna Morgan

This is true- I did some seminar work on it. There is usually very little
on the tables, until VERY late. And- *rummage rummage rummage* I just found
in a box here in my room (along with one of the awfulest papers I ever
wrote- it got an undeserved A-) the 34-page bunch of illos that went with
the seminar paper! Wahoo! It's not in Dad's garage!

Ok- what have we here (I will just cite a few examples)...

Oh- HEY! Someone was asking the other day about group handwashing? Found
the picture- the one with the 'kiddie pools'- from: _Prose Tristan_,
Italian, ca. 1320-50 (Bibliotheque Nationale, MS. Fr. 755, fol.115). It is
figure 31 in Henisch's _Fast and Feast_, but I don't have a page number.

Tableware-

St.Louis feeding the poor- (BN, MS. Fr. 5716, fol.213) 13th c- there are
large serving dishes, a few bowls, a salt cellar, a goblet, two knives,
assorted bread bits and sops.

a Life of Christ (BN, MS. Ital. 115, fol. 79v) 14th c.- manchets, cups,
knives, large serving platters, and some bowls.

Judith- (Winchester Bible, f. 331V)- 12thc.- Serving dishes, two salt
cellars, and knives.

>From _Old Testament Miniatures_ (Maciejowski Bibile, Morgan, fol. 16
recto)- 13th c.- Serving bowls, drinking bowls, knives, misc. bread (and a
servant cutting what looks like trencher), teh salt, and a ewer.

A 14th c text of Arthur and the Round Table (I don't have the cite- sorry)
shows a rounded horseshoe table, with a fringed cloth, and serving dishes,
knives, drinking cups, and manchets.

A 13th c _Parzival_ (again, no cite) shows the cloth with elaborate folds
in the front, the scrolly name-tag things on important people, and salts,
serving dishes, and scored bread/manchets.

January, _Tres Riches Heures_ (early 15th c, BTW) shows a variety of food
prep going on on the table, assorted serving dishes, a couple of bowls, an
enourmous nef, and two Taco Bell-size dogs. Gorgeous tablecloth too.

Luttrel Psalter, f. 208- Serving dishes, knives, cups and bowls, two
spoons, and assorted bread. Servant in front has the appropiate towel- one
of the earlier depictions of the fringed towel.

>From Queen Mary's Psalter (British Museum, MS. Royal 2B. VII, fol. 199v.)
Serving dishes, a knife, a salt, two ewers, bread, and sops.

Also from the _Life of Christ_ (BN, MS. Ital. 115, fol. 71v.) Jesus is
being fed in the desert- and the angels lay out a lovely picnic lunch,
complete with tablecloth over a rock, and two angels to do teh handwashing!
On the tablecloth- a serving platter, a cup, two manchets, and a ewer.

Fairly late, from the Coronation of Ann of Brittany (_the Banquet_, fol.
54v.) Lots of serving plates, but there appears to be a few individual
platters on the table. But I would not want my servers wearing such big
sleeves!

I personally have been paring down- trying to think in terms of how Elaine
would have eaten in 1402, and finding that it changes how I think about
food. I usually have- a small wooden plate (stand in for a trencher, which
we seldom have and I usually don't have time to bake and then drive several
hours), a small bowl, my stubby brass cup (short-footed, or I would call it
a chalice), a spoon for soup, and one of my serving towels as a napkin. A
knife if I remember, but usually I have to borrow from Edouard- which is
actually a more period thing to do. Mostly, I eat with my fingers. Bits of
bread for sauces are nice. But you know, eating that way greatly increases
my understanding of the manners texts- you know, about not wiping you hands
on the pets, or the tablecloth, and wiping your mouth so you don't leave
food grease in a shared cup... Yup. Nuthin quite like trying it their way
to understand what they're doing...

'Lainie

From: "Mercy Neumark" <mneumark at hotmail.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 08:34:24 -0800
Subject: [Sca-cooks] re: english and french pottery was re: tableware

>I just don't think I can support it being used as plates/trenchers to >eat
>off of, that's all. Nor can I support wood or metal for the same >purpose.
>They don't appear in teh pictures, nor in inventories, etc. But when >they
>finally appear in very late period, the majority seem to be metal, and
>'plate' was a popular thing to pawn if you got into difficulties.

I have pictures from the J.Paul Getty Museum of plates from 1275 and
onwards, which were used to eat off of on a daily basis and not as serving
dishes (I do have pictures of serving dishes too).  I can scan the sketches
of plates that were found in England as well if it would help. I also have
"Three Books of the Potter" by Picilopasso (misspelling his name horribly)
that was written roughly 1535 that goes over not only the production of
pottery, but examples of pottery this gentleman made/saw.  While this is
later period, the pottery he was using in Umbria, I believe, was in business
for a LONG time before that (maiolica potteries began to crop up in Italy in
11th century and began closing down in the 17ish-18th centuries).

I'll try to find some painting showing plates because I am pretty certain
that I've seen something.  Flemish Still lifes come to mind, but I could
very easily be wrong.  I'll delve deeper into this an report later. :)

--Arte the pottery sleuth

Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 10:32:15 -0700
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: lilinah at mail.earthlink.net
Subject: [Sca-cooks] 12th C. Persian Folding Spoon-Fork

Well, i mentioned this 12th C. Persian folding silver spoon-fork on
list at least a month ago - i finally got around to scanning it and
posting it on my website.

If you want to take a look at this unusual item:
http://witch.drak.net/lilinah/Persian_Spork.html

No, it isn't really a spork, but it saves typing time :-)

Taking a wild guess, it could be for eating sweetmeats without
getting one's fingers sticky... it's rather small -  the spoon bowl
is small and flat - and the fork is rather short...

I've sent the picture for estimates to the two metalworkers
recommended by folks on the list who contacted me.

Anahita
lilinah at earthlink.net

Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 05:17:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Louise Smithson <helewyse at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: heraldry & ceramics (morgana.abbey at juno.com)
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Morgana wrote: A friend of mine has a 14th century French persona. She  
is curious if heraldry was put on tableware and if so, how was it  
placed? Did they underglaze it on the rim of the plates, put it  
underneath? Did they do that tacky Nancy Reagan-White House china  
thing? Any ideas?

Morgana, I have seen arms on at least plates but it is on Italian  
Majolica from the 15th and 16th century.  There are lots of pictures of  
Majolica on the web all you have to do is google.  The Italians were  
inspired by the spanish. The spanish decorated ceramics is called  
hispano-moresque ware (and occured a little ealier).  The spanish in  
turn stole this technique from the arabs, early arabic tin ware.

The one thing that all these ceramics have in common is that the  
background is a white tin glaze, which is then painted on with stains  
and chemicals, this is then fired and the colors become brilliant on a  
smooth white background.  The process is technically very difficult,  
consequently pieces were expensive and in period these decorated plates  
were ostentatious displays of wealth.  Many of the examples in the  
museums worldwide show no sign of use whatsoever.  They were too  
expensive to eat off, they were displayed in wooden cases.

In addition the 14th century is just too early for most of this ware,  
it had not spread to Europe yet, and the arabic ceramics were much more  
abstract.    I don't have too many books on the pottery from france for  
the 14th century but I know that they were responsible for importing  
cooking pots into England for sale there as well as the ever popular  
Rouen drinking jugs. See the Museum of London for some examples of  
imported ceramics.
http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/ceramics/pages/object.asp?obj_id=34537
Fairly common to France was slip decorated ware.  White or cream/grey  
clay body, colored slips in a pattern on the outside and finally a  
clear lead glaze.

Hope this helps, but what she wants isn't really appropriate to persona  
or period.  Sorry.

Helewyse
Cook and potter :-)

Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 09:29:47 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: heraldry & ceramics
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Morgana wrote: A friend of mine has a 14th century French persona. She  
> is curious if heraldry was put on tableware and if so, how was it  
> placed? Did they underglaze it on the rim of the plates, put it  
> underneath? Did they do that tacky Nancy Reagan-White House china  
> thing? Any ideas?

If you check through the V&A Access to Images
you can find a number of items that show coats of arms.
There's 17th century earthenware for instance that is quite
splendid. There are several pieces of that in fact.
There are also brass and copper plates with coats of arms.
But I didn't locate anything that is 14th century tableware.
Your friend might consider glassware with coats of arms.
See
Goblet and case
Title 	The Luck of Edenhall
Date 	13th century
(Case) 14th century

The glassware is Mideastern but the case is French or English.
It's also early enough. The description goes into the nobles
buying items in an international market. So someone in France
might have purchased Italian glassware for instance.
There are a number of German glasses
in the V&A with coats of arms but they are 16th century and later.
http://www.vam.ac.uk/

The British Museum online has this object up.
http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/compass

The Aldrevandini Beaker Venice, around AD 1330
The Aldrevandini beaker is a uniquely well-preserved example from a
group of glass vessels produced in Venice at the end of the thirteenth
and the beginning of the fourteenth century.
Beneath the inscription are three heraldic shields set against a
background of leaves. Two of the shields are yellow, one decorated with
three blue stags' horns and the other with red keys. The third consists
of black and white horizontal bars. This combination of three different
shields suggests that the heraldry is purely decorative and that the
beaker was not produced for a specific person or family.

There are also a number of 16th century Maiolica dishes
such as that From Deruta, Umbria, Italy, around AD 1490-1525 which
feature coats of arms.

Johnnae

Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:42:13 -0500
From: "Elise Fleming" <alysk at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Heraldry & Ceramics
To: "ca-cooks at ansteorra.org" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Greetings.  The Cleveland Museum of Art has some examples.  In one of the
books I have, there's a picture of  "lusterware plate with the name of
'Maria'" which also includes what looks to be some armorial design.  This
is earthen ware, tin glazed with golden lustre decoration, 46.2 cm.
diameter, made in Spain, in the second or third decade of the 15th century
around Valencia.  "Large ornamental plates in this style became so renowned
that personalized examples were ordered not only from the four corners of
Spain but also from as far as Italy and France, with the prominent
inclusion of the arms of the owne to be."  There are also several examples
of Maiolica Plate with portraits in the center.  This is earthenware,
tin-glazed again.

You noted that your friend's persona is from the 1300s (14th c.) in France.
The Museum's material is about 100 years later (1420, 1430).  You might
want to check to see if lusterware, maiolica or tin-glazed ware was made as
early as the 1300s.  (Found a lovely pitcher painted in  "The Merode
Altarpiece, Annunciation" done by Robert Campin (the Master of Flemalle),
1400s.  While no arms are on it, there are words on the glazed pitcher.)

Alys Katharine

Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 08:43:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Colleen McDonald" <Colleen.McDonald at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Documentation for Presentation
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

When I entered my Condoignac from Le Mesnagier in our Kingdom A&S
competition in 2004, I documented my table setting and service in an
appendix to the main documentation.  Here's a quick listing of the
details.

For the handwashing at the beginning of the entry, I used this recipe from Powers' translation of Le Menagier (The Goodman of Paris):  "To prepare water for washing the hands at the table.  Set sage to boil, then pour over the water and let it cool until it is just warm". (Powers 299)

I documented my white table coverings using Powers' translation (page 242) and pictures from the Queen Mary Psalter and Giotto's The Marriage at Cana.

My judges had individual bread trenchers, based on this passage from
Powers' (page 242):  "Item, two knife-bearers, whereof one is to cut up bread and make trenchers and salt-cellars of bread and they shall carry the salt and the bread and the trenchers to the tables."

I used pewter plates for serving dishes in line with what _The Goodman_ directs his young wife to use for a wedding dinner (Powers 243).  "And he shall likewise purvey the pewter vessels; to wit ten dozen bowls, six dozen small dishes, two dozen and a half large dishes, eight quart [pots], two dozen pint [pots], two almsdishes."

My judges were provided with spoons and ewers (Powers 243):
"Two other esquires be needed for the service of the dining hall, and they shall give out spoons and collect them again,..."
"The office of the steward is to purvey saltcellars for the high table; hanaps, four dozen; covered gilt goblets, four; ewers, six; silver spoons, four dozen; silver quart [pots], four; ...."

My sweetheart and a close friend worked as the servers for my entry
following the directions given in _The Goodman_ (Powers 243):
"Two other esquires be needed for the service of the dining hall, and they shall give out spoons and collect them again, give out hanaps, pour out whichsoever wine be asked for by the guests at table and collect the vessels again."

I served the condoignac with an option of bread or wafers (water crackers as I had completely run out of time to make my own) and a French Burgundy wine, the choice of which was documented in the body of my paper.  I actually considered getting a Burgundy from Clos de Vougeot, since that vineyard has been in existence since the 1300's, but at $60 plus a bottle, decided it was too expensive.

All in all, it was fun to present and even though the judges didn't seem to notice the presentation, I was glad I made the effort.

Cainder

Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 19:47:00 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] trenchers
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Aoghann wrote:
> I have heard this before, and it amazes me. When did precious metals and
> fine porcelain start being used in table service? (or restart, as the
> case may be)

Fine china (not always porcelain) and silver and bronze/brass were staples on Near and Middle Eastern tables. The Persians also imported celadon ware and blue-and-white wear (often porcelain) from China for hundreds of years in SCA period.

And don't forget glass. The use of glass began in either Ancient
Mesopotamia or Ancient Phoenicia, and seems never to have ceased to be used in the Near and Middle East.

I don't know about glass in al-Andalus, but fine china and fine metals were on the dining table since early on - al-Andalus, Muslim Spain, began around 711 and didn't cease to be until 1492.
-- 
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Knives - sharp side in?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Message-ID: <200511110804.06238.carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
Content-Type: text/plain;  charset="iso-8859-1"

Am Freitag, 11. November 2005 04:38 schrieb kingstaste at mindspring.com:
> I was getting ready for a class tonight at Viking, and the Class  
> Manager
> had set the table.  The Culinary School Manager came in and asked  
> him if he
> had taken Dining Room in culinary school yet, and proceeded to  
> correct his
> table setting.  In the process, I heard "in the middle ages they  
> put it
> that way to assure the other person you wouldn't stab them".   
> "What?" says
> I.  He repeated: "the practice of placing the edge of the knife  
> facing in
> towards the plate dates from the Middle Ages, and it was meant to  
> reassure
> your dining partner that you were not going to slice or stab  
> them".  He
> said he was taught this in Culinary History at Johnson and Wales.   
> I said
> that I had never run across that particular one in all of the dining
> etiquette books I had read from the Middle Ages and Renaissance.  I  
> thought
> I would run it by here - anyone heard of this one?

Heard, yes, but I believe the concern over the health of fellow   diners goes back to the Early Modern period, rather. After all, it is in the seventeenth centuries that table knives lose their stabbing point. From all depictions I recall, medieval table settings even in the wealthier households were not governed by any such rules until very late. Most interestingly, what you most commonly see is a single knife lying on the table that seems to be for communal use. We can assume the diners also brought their own smaller ones, but these are not usually visible (IIRC Tannhäuser suggests putting it away when not using it).

Why would I want to stab anyone at the dinner table in a society   where it is still legal to kill people in open hand-to-hand combat?

Giano

Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 19:08:42 -0500
From: Daniel Myers <eduard at medievalcookery.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Knives - sharp side in?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On Nov 11, 2005, at 12:37 AM, Pat wrote:
> ISR that during most of the middle ages, one brought one's own
> table settings to table and laid them out however one wished.

The Book of Kerving (Wynkin de Worde) has the butler laying out the place settings for the master & guests, with the master having a knife and spoon, and the guests just having spoons.  He makes no mention of which way the knife is to face.

- Doc

Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:43:55 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Feeding Desire-- the book
To: SCA COOKS <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

If anyone is interested in silverware or tableware, they may want to take a look at the very expensive very beautiful volume Feeding Desire. It's the catalogue to the Cooper Hewitt show in NYC.
http://www.cooperhewitt.org/EXHIBITIONS/feeding_desire/ 
The hardcover is 288 pages with 200 color illustrations.
It's $65. Amazon has it priced at just over $40.

Johnnae

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 19:32:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Louise Smithson <helewyse at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] serving ware
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Why re-invent the wheel, look what I found
http://www.larsdatter.com/feastgear.htm
An entire site of online feast gear pictures and references all nicely collected in one place.

Helewyse

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 02:13:51 -0400
From: Gretchen Beck <grm at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] properly prepared marrow?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>,	SCA-Cooks
	maillist SCA-Cooks <SCA-Cooks at Ansteorra.org>

--On Thursday, August 14, 2008 12:53 AM -0500 Stefan li Rous 
<stefanlirous at austin.rr.com> wrote:
<<< Anybody know of any evidence of these [marrow spoons] being used during our period? To a certain extent, this makes me think of a later time period, Georgian? Edwardian? But I can imagine them being used in upper crust period feasts. >>>

The OED has it at the end of the 17th C:

1693 London Gaz. No. 2853/4, 1 Sweat-meat Spoon, 1 *Marrow Spoon, 1 Ladle 
and Skillet.

<A Register of the Members of St. Mary Magdalen College, Oxford,> notes an 
object identified in a modern inventory as a marrow spoon with an 
inscription dating to 1667 and another whose inscription is dated 1664.

I'm not sure about the heavy ball on the end though; most descriptions I'm 
seeing suggest a scoop at both ends (or one describes a fork with a marrow 
spoon as a handle)

toodles, margaret

From: Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith at sbcglobal.net>
Date: March 1, 2010 5:38:35 PM CST
To: Barony of Bryn Gwlad <bryn-gwlad at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Bryn-gwlad] 16th-c. Scottish feast gear (was: Odd question...)

Caladin wrote:
<<< Any one know where i can find pics of 16th century (scotch). . .mugs? ditto for plates and bowls? >>>

I'm not sure how distinctive pottery used in Scotland was in that period, and how much it resembled pottery used elsewhere on the island.

There are photos of some 16th-century Surrey/Hampshire border ware drinking vessels (jugs, mugs, goblets, cups, and costrels), dishes, and bowls at <http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/ceramics/pages/subcategory.asp?subcat_id=706>,  of 16th-century London-area redware drinking vessels (including jugs and costrels) and bowls at <http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/ceramics/pages/subcategory.asp?subcat_id=707>, and of 16th-century tin-glazed ware dishes, plates, bowls, and mugs found in England (some manufactured in London, some in continental Europe) at <http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/ceramics/pages/category.asp?cat_id=710>.

Coblaith Muimnech

From: Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith at sbcglobal.net>
Date: March 1, 2010 5:39:37 PM CST
To: Barony of Bryn Gwlad <bryn-gwlad at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Bryn-gwlad] 12th-c. Norman feast gear (was: Odd question...)

Caladin wrote:
>>> Any one know where i can find pics of. . .12th century (Norman) mugs? ditto for plates and bowls? >>>

The Normans were pretty spread out by the 12th century, with settlements everywhere from the British Isles to the Middle East <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Normans_possessions_12century-fr.png>.  If you're looking to find feast gear authentic to your persona, you might be better off searching by location than by culture.

There's a brief overview of general pottery trends in England at <http://www.spoilheap.co.uk/medpoti.htm>.  It includes some information on how pottery changed in the 11th and 12th centuries that might help you choose pieces that are especially appropriate to your period if your persona is a Norman in England.

There are some photos of London-type wares dated to between 1080 and 1350, including dishes, bowls, and drinking jugs, at <http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/ceramics/pages/subcategory.asp?subcat_id=796>.

There are a few images of Ashampstead-type ware, Brill/Boarstall ware, and Early Medieval Oxford ware jugs and one Early Medieval Oxford ware dish, all from between 1000 and 1250 C.E., at <http://www.potweb.org/PotChron2.html>.  There's also a little text about Saxo-Norman pottery (dated to 850-1150 C.E.) at <http://www.ashmolean.org/PotWeb/PotChron1.html>, though none of the pictured pieces appear to be drinking vessels or dishes from which people ate.

Coblaith Muimnech

<the end>