p-menus-msg – 2/25/19

Examples of medieval feast menus. Sources for period menus.

NOTE: See also the files: feast-serving-msg, ME-feasts-msg, feasts-msg, feast-decor-msg, feast-menus-msg, feast-ideas-msg, Run-a-Feast-art.

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This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: ddfr at best.com (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Medieval menus
Date: 20 Sep 1996 05:19:28 GMT

> I am looking for sources that contain menus of meals served before 1650. 
> I would like to also have recipes for the dishes in the menus or at least
> some idea of what was in each item.  A book discussing how the meals were
> put together would be great too!  Thanks!
> -- 
> Dottie Elliott 

_Two Fifteenth Century Cookery Books_, Thomas Austin ed., published by
Early English Text Society, has menus for a bunch of feasts--but they are
humongous big royal feasts. It also has lots of recipes. Of course, they
are 15th century recipes, written in 15th century English and generally
omitting inessential details such as quantities, times and temperatures.

_The Goodman of Paris_ (Le Menagier de Paris) is a late 14th century book
that has quite a lot of menus for much more modest meals--more on the
order of a wedding feast for minor noble or wealthy bourgeois--along with
lots of recipes.

For lots of worked out period recipes, you might want to look at:

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/cariadoc/miscellany.html
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html

David/Cariadoc
-- 
ddfr at best.com

From: "Joseph M. Carlin" <foodbks at shore.net>
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Medieval menus
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 19:22:13 -0400
Organization: Food Heritage Press

> I am looking for sources that contain menus of meals served before 1650.
> I would like to also have recipes for the dishes in the menus or at least
> some idea of what was in each item.  A book discussing how the meals were
> put together would be great too!  Thanks!
> --
> Dottie Elliott

Check out the medieval page at Http://www.shore.net/~foodbks

Joe Carlin
foodbks at shore.net

From: L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at postoffice.ptd.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 08:17:48 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #71

>Are you suggesting that meals were either all meat or all fish? I don't
>think the extant menus support that.
>
>Adamantius

Here we go---what's needed is some documentation. Robert May planned a
Christmas Day Menu (The Accomplisht Cook). My Source: Old Cook Books, An
Illuminated History, Eric Quayle 1978.

Here it is:
Oysters
A Collar of Brawn
Stewed Broth of Mutton  marrow bones
A grand Sallet
A Pottage of Caponets
A Breast of Veal in Stoffado
A Boil'd Partridge
A chine of Beef, or surloin roast
Minced pies
A jegote of mutton with anchovie sauce
A made dish of sweet-bread
A swan roast
A pasty of venison
A kid with a pudding in his belly
A steak pie
A haunch of Venison roasted
A turkey roast and stuck with cloves
A made dish of chickens in puff paste
Two bran geese roasted, one larded
Two large capons, one larded
A Custard

The Second Course for the Same Mess

Oranges and Lemons
A young lamb or kid
Two couple of rabbits, two larded
A pig souc'd with tongues
Three ducks, one larded
Three pheasants, one larded
A Swan Pye
Three brace of Partridge, three larded
Made dish in Puff Paste
Bolonia sausages, and anchovies, and pickled oysters in a dish, with
mushrooms and Caviare
Six teals, three larded
A Gammon of Westphalia Bacon
Ten ploves, five larded
Aquince pye or warden pye
Six woodcocks, three larded
A Standing tarte in puff paste, preserved fruits, pippins,&c.
A dish of larks
Six dried neat's tongues
Sturgeon
Powdered Geese (yes, that's what it says)
Jellies.

Aoife 

From: Uduido at aol.com
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 19:31:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SC - Menu, Meat with Fish

In a message dated 97-04-23 14:23:26 EDT, you write:

<< But I don't see
 > a single menu here that supports the notion that fish was generally
 > eaten on meat days;  >>

Taken from "Le Menagier de Paris (circa 1395 c.e.); Translated by Janet
Hinson". Emphasis is my own:

IV. Another MEAT dinner

First Dish: Rich Pasties; a stew of meat, beef marrow fritters, SMOKED EELS,
LOACH IN WATER and cold sage soup, coarse meat and SALTWATER FISH

Second Dish: The best roast you can make and FRESHWATER FISH,  a bacon gruel,
a slab of meat, capon pies and thin pancakes, BREAM PIES,  EEL PIES, and
fricasse.

Third Dish: Frumenty, venison, LAMPREY IN HOT SAUCE, fried bread slices,
BREAM ROASTED and meat,tarts, STURGEON  and jelly.
..........................................................

Here is another menu from the same source that also combines meat and fish:

VI. Another MEAT Dinner

First Dish. Fresh beans, a cinnamon broth, a stew of black hare, A GREEN SOUP
OF EELS,  SMOKED HERRING, coarse meat. turnips, TENCH SOUPS, SALTED SCIAENAS
AND OLIVES, beef marrow rissoles and skewers of beef ut pa.

Second dish. Roast the best that you can, SWEETWATER FISH, SALTWATER FISH,
PLAICE IN WATER, forcemeat in hot sauce like lampreys, A SHAD SOUP G. I. G.,
 peach flower, portioned fricasse, Lombardy tarts, pies of venison and smalll
birds, sweet chestnuts, FRESH HERRING.

Third dish. Frumenty, venison, browned (vegetables), FISH JELLIES,  fat
capons a la dodine,  ROAST OF FISH, fried bread slices and meat tarts,
JELLIED EELS, CRAYFISH, thin pancakes and little sausages.

Lord Ras

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:22:44 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Fw: [Mid] Feasts

>> From: Steve Muhlberger
>> To: Middlebridge
>> Subject: [Mid] Feasts
>>
>> I have a preference in feasts.
>>
>> I like feasts to be a reasonable length.
>>
>> In the Middle Ages, from what I can tell, the big fancy feasts were
>> standalone events.  You had a feast and it was the one event that day.

(forwarded from Middlebridge to SCA Cooks)

Much as I hate to take issue with the noble and learned Finnvairr ...   .

Chiquart makes it clear that he intends to serve two meals each day. The
big 16th c. German cookbook I have (admittedly, a little late for medieval)
gives lots of menus, each in the form of an early meal and a night meal, I
assume lunch and dinner.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:42:31 -0500
From: margali <margali at 99main.com>
Subject: Re: SC - menu, 1571-longish

> But what did they consider "proper" meal planning in the middle ages?
> How did they decide whether to put the fish before or after the
> chicken?  Did they always have a vegetable in each course and bread at
> each meal; or are these modern-day affectations we've incorporated
> into SCA feasts?
>
> Anyone have any insight on Medieval Menu Planning?
>
>         - kat

This is a menu dating to 1571, preserved in the archives of the northern
dept of france, ref larousse gastronomie

bill of fare for the nuptual dinner of master baulde cuvillon
first course
salads of various kinds
flesh of prinsels with parsley and vinegar[savoury preserves]
mutton broth
fricasse of gosling
spring chickens with spinach
cold saille
pigeons a la tremoulette
roast joints of mutton
roast brest of veal
small pastries with hot sauce
roast roebuck
dainty pate
spring chickens in aspic
sweetened mustard

second course
venison broth
roast capon
orange salad
roast pheasants
roast rabbits
roast spring chickens, some stuffed some larded
cheriots
roast quail
roast crousets
smoked tongue
boulogne sausages
pheasant pates
pate of meaux hams
crousets pates
turkey or peacock pate
venison pate
leg of lamb daube
capon in aspic
roast swan
sweetened mustard
olives

dessert
mousse tart
apple tart
chervil tart
jam tart
cream flan
gohier
waffles
pate of pears
clove apple
pears  in mead
sartelles pears
angelots
morbecque
gren walnuts
fresh fruit
ample jelly
cheese

this is observeably heavy in fats, proteins and stuff guaranteed to make
your capillaries scream for mercy.

margali

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 97 12:02:11 -0500
From: Dottie Elliott <macdj at onr.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Fw: [Mid] Feasts

In my looking at menus from the times (mostly coronation and ordination 
menus so far), they have had usually 3 courses with various entrements in 
between and as many as 30 - 40 dishes served. However, one needs to keep 
in mind that no one ate from all the dishes. There were different dishes 
for different levels of society.  I don't think I have yet found any 
menus with more than 3 courses. 

Clarissa

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:15:41 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - period feast menus

At 11:04 AM +0000 11/14/97, Mark Harris wrote:
>I have a little bit on period feast menus in my file p-menus-msg. I would
>love to have more actual menus or referances for this file. Does anyone
>have good recommendation for where people should go look for period menu
>examples. (hmmm. And I mean the book names, not "the library". shesh.)

Two Fifteenth Century Cookery Books has very high class menus. _Le
Menagier_ has much less pretentious ones.

David/Cariadoc

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 14:27:15 -0500
From: "Gedney, Jeff" <gedje01 at mail.cai.com>
Subject: RE: SC - meat days and fast days - MIXED?

Allison opined:
> Since there seems to be a negative reaction among a number of cooks in
> regard to accomodating vegetarians, can we just forget that word?  We
> have menus from period that list fast day type of food for church
> members.  'Ecclesiastical' is a bit much to type constantly, and 'fast
> food', while punny to most of us, may confuse newcomers.  What term might
> people like?  Church food?  Priest dish?  Perhaps this would make this
> preparation more 'palatable' to us, the Kitchen Stewards.

Unfortunately, fast day food is not always possible as a vegetarian
alternative either. Much fast day food is really just the same meals with
fish instead of meat, and almond milk instead of dairy. Some Vegetarians do
not eat fish (to say nothing of the period use of porpoise and whale meat on
"fish days"!!).

Personally, I think that a few vegetarians trying to set the agenda for the
rest of us is a bit arrogant, regardless of the purity of their motivations.
If a vegetarian does not want to eat meat at a feast, they can always bring
a bag of carrots, and munch "off board".

It is just that, predominately, in period, there was a preponderance of
meats in the feast menus, and the assumption is therefore made that on
non-feast times, people ate very little meat. (if they ate like that at
every meal, then they would have died of heart failure very early!!).
Unfortunately, for Vegetarians, we are recreating feast menus, not everyday
food. Anyway, feast food seems to be what survived in books which we can use
as sources.

See what I mean, in this menu from a 14th century manuscript at the Beineke
Library at Yale:

(idiomatic language translated to modern English)
For the knights table, the first course: Venison with frumente, Viand Bruce,
Boars Head, Swan Roasted, Pike in sauce, Custard Lumbard, and a soteltie,
The second Course: a pottage called gelly, and pottage blanc de sore, Roast
pig, Roast Kid, Chickens Endored, Bream in sauce, tartes, Brawn bruse,
Roasted Coneys, and a soteltie. The third course: Bruet of almayne, Stewed
Lumbard, Roast venison, roast peacocks, roast partridge, pidgeons, rabbits,
Roast larks, Payne Puffe, Boiled partridge, a dish of jelly, Long Frittore.

- --- 10 meats, 7 birds, 3 fish by my count and none without some kind of
meat or fish product used in the preparation.
(Not to mention the kings table which has even more meat dishes in it.)

The point of this is that there would be little place at our table for
vegetarians if we were truly "in period". I think that vegetarians should
just accept the fact that what we are recreating was not the Vegetarian
Middle Ages, but the European Middle Ages, Where if it was alive, and did
not talk back to you, you could eat it, and often did!!!

References:
An Ordinance of Pottage       By Constance Heiatt
Pleyn Delite                  By Constance Heiatt
All Manners of Food           By Stephen Mennell

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:02:44 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: SC - Period Coronation Feast Menus

At 10:15 PM -0800 2/15/99, Elisabeth Borden wrote:
>     I was wondering if anyone knew of any urls for period coronation
>feast menus.  I've tried a ton of combinations of words on various
>search engines, but I can't seem to come up with any.

I don't know any on-line sources, but if you have access to _Two Fifteenth
Century Cookery Books_, ed. Thomas Austin, Early English Text Society, he
lists a fair number of menus of English feasts, including at least one
coronation as well as the installation of a bishop, etc.  Many university
libraries have the Early English Text Society series.

Elizabeth of Dendermonde/Betty Cook

Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:41:05 -0400
From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)
Subject: SC - funeral feast - period menu - ON topic

Here is a period menu for the Funeral Feast of
Nicholas Bubwith, Bishop of Bath and Wells, December 4th, 1424.  This menu
includes a separate fish feast for the clergy.

Harleian MS. 279.

Le .j. cours.
Nomblys de Roo.
Blamangere.
Braun, cum Mustard.
Chynes de porke.
Capoun Roste de haut grece.
Swan Roste.
Heroun Rostyd.
Aloes de Roo.
Puddyng de Swan necke.
Vn Lechemete.
Vn bake, videlicet Crustade.

Le .ij. cours.
Ro Styuyd.
Mammenye.
Connyng Rostyd.
Curlew.
Fesaunt Rostyd.
Wodecokke Roste.
Pertryche Roste.
Plouer Roste.
Snytys Roste.
Grete byrdes Rosted.
Larkys Rostyd.
Vennysoun de Ro Rostyd.
Yrchouns.
Vn leche.
Payn puffe.
Colde bakemete.

Conuiuium de piscibus pro viris Religiosis ad funeralia predicta.

Le .j. cours.
Elys in sorry.
Blamanger.
Bakoun heryng.
Mulwyl taylys.
Lenge taylys.
Jollys of Samoun.
Merlyng so[th]e.
Pyke.
Grete Plays.
Leche barry.
Crustade Ryal.

Le .ij. cours.
Mammenye.
Crem of Almaundys.
Codelyng.
Haddok.
Freysse hake.
Solys y-so[th]e
Gurnyd broylid with a syryppe.
Brem de Mere.
Roche.
Perche.
Menus fryid.
Yrchouns.
Elys y-rostyd.
Leche lumbard.
Grete Crabbys.
A cold bakemete.

Cindy Renfrow/Sincgiefu
renfrow at skylands.net

Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 12:17:10 EST
From: RuddR at aol.com
Subject: SC - Re: Why not turkey?

Phillipa writes:
> Why wouldn't they have eaten turkey?  It was native.  It was there.

For what it's worth, I found a newspaper clipping from Thanksgiving, several
years ago.  This seems to be a Plimoth Plantation recreation of what might
have been served:

"First Feast

The menu for the historical recreation of the 1621 harvest feast between
English colonists and Wampanoag Indians that inspired the Thanksgiving
holiday.

Seethed Lobster
A Goose, Roasted
A Turkie, Boyled
A Fricase of Coney (rabbit)
A Pudding of Indian Corn with dried Whorleberries
A Cod, Seethed
A Brace of Ducks, Roasted
Pompion (pumpkin) Stew'd
A Haunch of Venison, Raosted
A Savory Pudding of Hominy
A Dish of Fruit and Holland Cheese
Mustard
Water
Watered Wine

Source: Plimoth Plantation"

Rudd Rayfield

From: Robin Carroll-Mann <harper at idt.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: a curly question re food history
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 19:33:41 -0500

Maggie Forest wrote:
> I've been doing some research on Medieval Scandinavian food, and came
> across a reference to the household accounts for the Bishop of
> Linkoping in the 1520's, which apparently contain lists of all the
> menus of all the meals served in his household during that year. Does
> anyone know if this list, or the accounts in total, have been
> published anywhere?

Some of it is online -- in English! -- at:
http://www.bahnhof.se/~chimbis/tocb/recipes/menus/brask/index.html

If you do a web search on "Hans Brask", you will come up with several
hundred hits. Most of which are in those Scandinavian languages that
you read (and I do not).

There is an article by Bi Skaarup, "Sources of Medieval Cuisine in
Denmark" in _Du manuscrit a la table_.  (Edited by Carole Lambert, Les
Presses de L'Universite de Montreal, 1992, ISBN 2-7606-1564-2)  It's
only 5 pages, and the section on Bishop Brask is 3/4 page long, *but*
it has a citation to a published source:

Hildebrand, Hans, ed., "Matordningen i bishop Hans Brasks hus" Kongl.
Vitterhets Historie och Antiquitets Akademiens Maanadsblad, no. 157
and no. 159 (1885), pp. 1-21 and pp. 141-142

> I can just imagine the look on the local librarian's face if I turn up
> with this request cold; so I thought I'd try here first.

I'm probably not local to you, but I'm a librarian, and I think it's a
*wonderful* question.

Hope this helps.  Good luck with your research.
-- 
Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East

Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:54:49 -0400
From: "Jeff Gedney" <JGedney at dictaphone.com>
Subject: Re: WAS: SC - questions

We often do not have the facility to cook what is called for.
Many banquets seen in Period illumination had under 50 feasters, some under 20.
Therefore it was possible to server 7 varieties of Fowl, 5 varieties of meat, all roasted, number of made dishes, and a bunch of baked goods.

To attempt that on a scale of hundreds of feasters would require herculean efforts by a huge number of cooks in an absolutely humongous kitchen.
(They used servants in castles, we use volunteers in rented church basements)

I'll post an example I have from Heiatt's "Ordinance of Pottage" (that is the book I have on hand here at work )
( I am adapting the language for readability )
For the Knight's table, The First Course: boiled Venison with Frumente, 
Vyand bruce, Boars' heads, Roast Swan, Pike in Sauce, Custard lumbard, 
and a soteltie. The Second course: A potage caled gely, an Potage blanc 
de sore, Roast pig, Roast Kid, Chicken endored, Breme in sauce, tarts, 
brawn bruse, Roast Rabbit, and a soteltie. The third Course: Bruet of almayne, 
Stewed Lumbard, Roast venison, Roast peacock, Roast partridge, pidgeons, 
young Rabbits, Roast Larks, Puff pastry, Boiled partridge, A Dish of jelly, 
long Fritters. 

For the King's table, The First Course: boiled Venison with Frumente, 
Vyand bruce, Great Chunks of meat, Boars' heads, Roast Swan, Fatted 
Capons, Roast Swan, Roast Pheasant, Great tarts, and a soteltie. The 
Second course: Blanc de sore, Roast pig, Roast Kid, Crane, Pheasant, 
herons, Roast Chicken, Braised Breme, tarts, brawn bruse, 
Roast Rabbit, and a soteltie. The third Course: Bruet of almayne, 
Stewed Lumbard, Roast venison, Egret, Chickens, partridge, pidgeons, 
young Rabbits, Roast Quail and larks, Puff pastry, Boiled perch, A Dish of jelly, long Fritters, and a soteltie. 

Roast dishes  = 11, 16 if preparing Kings and knights tables separately
Boiled and probably boiled dishes =  14, 22 if preparing Kings and knights 
tables separately made dishes = 8, 14 if preparing Kings and knights tables separately fried/Baked items = 4, 7 if preparing Kings and knights tables separately Sotelties = 3, 5 if preparing Kings and knights tables separately

Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 09:32:32 -0700
From: "E. Rain" <raghead at liripipe.com>
Subject: SC - Period Menus

Hi all,
on the topic of period Menus, here's a bit of DeNola's Libre de Guisados as
translated by Marianne Perdomo Machin:

"It is also customary to give table cloth with each potagge, and to give the
victuals from degree to degree, that is: first the fruit, and after it a
pottage; and then roast, then another pottage and then cooked [things, like
stews]; unless its is manjar blanco, for this pottage is usually given at
the beginning, after the fruit. Some lords eat at first all that is stewed,
and then all that is roasted. If there are frying pan fruits [*] it must be
given afterwards, as it were, and then the other fruit."

* frying pan fruits: basically cheese or fruit in dough, deep-fried or
something
along those lines

Eden’s summation:

Fruit
Pottages (blancmanges)
Roasts
Pottages
Stews
Fritters
fruit

So far I haven't found a menu from the Spanish sources that's been
translated into English, but at least with this as a guide I can start to
construct something *like* a period meal.  Hopefully by the time we're done
with the recipe reconstructions stage we're currently working on I will have
found some actual menus to look at as well, if not I'll probably work with
the menus from the Neapolitan collection to supplement this.

one of the Neapolitan menus calls for only 18 dishes, which is quite
feasible.  Interestingly it's broken out into 7 courses (some with only 1
dish) and we were just talking at a recent Madrone Culinary Guild mtg about
breaking our banquets up into a larger number of courses with fewer dishes
in each of them so as to make serving up each course easier & help guarantee
that delicate foods went out to the hall at the right time etc... (we're
extremely fussy about this "hot food goes to the table hot" being one of our
mantras)

Eden - who wants about 200 of those lovely covered serving dishes you see in
the period illustrations of feasts :->

Eden Rain
raghead at liripipe.com

Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:59:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jenne Heise <jenne at tulgey.browser.net>
Subject: Re: SC - questions

> I may have to stand corrected on this.  But I have to ask whether these are 
> the kind of feast menus we have been discussing?  I have not seen them.

Well, Le Menagier appears to give 24 different menus, though they don't
seem quite as expansive as the ones mentioned here--- or as detailed.
 
Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise	      jenne at tulgey.browser.net

Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:18:18 +0200
From: "Cindy M. Renfrow" <cindy at thousandeggs.com>
Subject: Re: SC - questions

<snip> Does anyone have, or have seen, any manor house or castle
>inventories in which quantities of meats and game birds jumped anywhere near
>these levels in actual history?  That would be a better indication of how
>much food was actually (rather than theoretically) served at a feast.  I am
>not, at present, prepared to believe that the Du Fait referrence is an actual
>account of feast preparations.
>
>Balthazar of Blackmoor

Here you are.  This is the only shopping list I've got typed in.  I think
there is another in Le Menagier.

Harleian MS. 4016

This is the purveyance made for King Richard, who was with the Duke of
Lancaster at the Bishop's place of Durham at London, the 23rd day of
September, in the 12th year of the king's reign. [A.D. 1387.]

The shopping list:
Xiiij. oxen lying in salte.	14 salted oxen
IJ. oxen ffreyssh.		2 fresh oxen
Vixx. hedes of shepe fressh.	6 score (120) fresh sheep heads
Vixx. carcas of shepe fressh.	6 score (120) fresh sheep carcasses
Xij. Bores.			12 Boars
Xiiij. Calvys.			14 Calves
Cxl. pigges.			140 pigs
CCC. maribones.			300 marrowbones
Of larde and grece, ynogh.	Of lard & grease, enough
IIJ. ton of salt veneson.	3 tuns of salted venison
IIJ. does of ffressh veneson.	3 does of fresh venison
The poultry:
L. Swannes.			50 Swans
CCx. Gees.			210 Geese
L. capons of hie grece.		50 fat capons
Viii. dussen o[th]er capons.	8 dozen other capons
Lx. dd Hennes.			60 dozen Hens
CC. copull Conyngges.		200 couple Coneys
IIIJ. Fesauntes.		4 Pheasants
V. Herons and Bitores.		5 Herons & Bitterns
Vi. kiddes.			6 kids
V. disson pullayn for Gely.	5 dozen pullets for Jelly
Xij. dd. to roste.		12 dozen [pullets] to roast
C. dd. peions.			100 dozen pigeons
Xij. dd. partrych.		12 dozen partridges
Viij. dd. Rabettes.		8 dozen Rabbits
X. dosen Curlewes.		10 dozen Curlews
Xij. dosen Brewes.		10 dozen Brewes
Xij. Cranes.			12 Cranes
Wilde fowle ynogh.		Wild fowl enough
VJxx. galons melke.		6 score (120) gallons milk
Xij. galons Creme.		12 gallons Cream
Xl. galons of Cruddes.		11 gallons of Curds
Ilj. bushel[3] of Appelles.	3 bushels of Apples
Xj. thousand egges.		11,000 eggs.

Harleian MS. 4016

The resultant feast, given for King Richard II by the Bishop of Durham, at
Durham House, London, on September 23rd, 1387:
The Third Course.
Potage. bruete of Almondes.
Stwde lumbarde.
Venyson rosted.
Chekenes rosted.
Rabettes rosted.
Partrich rosted.
Peions rosted.
Quailes rosted.
Larkes rosted.
Payne puff/.
A Dissh of Gely.
Longe Frutours.
And a Sotelte.

The First Course.
Veneson with Furmenty.
A potage called viaundbruse.
Hedes of Bores.
Grete Flessh.
Swannes rosted.
Pigges rosted.
Crustade lumbard in paste.
And a Sotelte.

The Second Course.
A potage called Gele.
A potage de Blandesore.
Pigges' rosted.
Cranes rosted.
Fesauntes rosted.
Herons rosted.
Chekens endored.
Breme.
Tartes.
Broke braune.
Conyngges rosted.
And a sotellte.

Cindy Renfrow
cindy at thousandeggs.com

Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 15:36:07 -0600 (MDT)
From: grasse at mscd.edu (Martina Grasse)
Subject: SC - sca-cooks #2366 menus and Hollopotrida

2ndly... Rumpolt has dozens of menus listed in the first part of Ein New 
Kochbuch.  Everything from the nightmeal for Kings and Emperors to an early 
meal for farmers (still with several courses..)  In fact each of the groups 
he has banquet menus for he gives 4 different versions...
2 early meals one for a meat day and one for a fast day, and 2 night meals, 
also one for a meat day and one for a fast day.  All in all there are many 
MANY banqueting menus listed.  

Gwen Cat

Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 02:11:40 +0200
From: Thomas Gloning <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Subject: SC - Period menues and dishes

Apart from cookbooks, there are other sources/ articles that allow or
help to reconstruct menues:

1. -- There are investigations about certain courts. E.g., Gerhard
Fouquet published an investigtion about eating and drinking at the court
of Bishop Matthias Rammung of Speyer around 1470. Among other things, he
used bills, accounts and the "Ordenunge, wie es mit den kochen zu
ydertzit in unser kuchen solle gehalten werden" (Ordinance of cooking/
for the cooks; I'll put this document online not later than 2013). One
of his findings was, that the meals of everyday were _very_ much simpler
than the meals of representation: "auch am Hof des Speyerer Bischofs
wurde f¸r das Fest gespart" (p.21).

2. -- There are bills and accounts, e.g. used in Giovanna Frosini, Il
cibo e i signori (Florence, 14th century), or in Ulf Dirlmeier's book
about the income and the cost of living in the cities of southern
Germany in the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries. In addition, there is much
to find in the archives about food in official contexts, though not
everything is transcribed yet, let alone translated or commented on. See
for example:
http://134.76.229.28/duderstadt/ab/reihe68/html_seiten/7121b001.r.html
Basically, this kind of source reveals what was bought, on which
occasion, in which quantities, and for what price. Hard work, however.

3. -- There are diaries and chronicles with reports about meals and
menues. Fouquet mentions: Helmut Hundsbichler: Reise, Gastlichkeit und
Nahrung im Spiegel der Reisetageb¸cher des Paolo Santonio. (1485-1487).
Diss. Wien 1979; somebody recently mentioned the menu, that was served,
when Charles V. came to some city in southern Germany. (I took a note
somewhere; could look it up.)

4. -- Apart from the menu sections in the cookbooks already mentioned
(e.g. Rumpolt), there is the work of Messisbugo (1557), a book with many
menues, e.g. the "Cena che fece il Conte Galeazzo Estense Tassone allo
Illustri?imo & Eccellenti?imo Signor Duca nostro, ... & fu di dominica
nel Carneuale del 1537" (25b).

5. -- There is Jean Louis Flandrins 'Structure des menus francais et
anglais aux XIVe et XVe siecles' (accents left out), in which he
analyses the menues of the Menagier, of Ms. Harley 279 and of the menues
in the Antiquitates culinariae.

6. -- The dietetic texts also say something about the order, in which
different food stuffs should be served.

Thomas

Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 08:24:30 -0700
From: "E. Rain" <raghead at liripipe.com>
Subject: SC - Period menus

here's one of the shorter menus from menagier just for example.  it's only
18 dishes, well within the ability of an SCA group to produce.  there are
only 2 fish dishes and most of the rest is fairly normal food - if you eat
bambi & thumper :->  Follow it with some wafers & hippocras & you'd have a
fine meal.

Eden

from Le Menagier de Paris  Translated by Janet Hinson  (with notes by
Elizabeth Cook)
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Cookbooks/Menagier/Menagier_Contents.html

IX. Another Meat Dinner.

First dish. White beets, beef pies, olives and sciaenas[an edible fish
(JH)]., soup of hares and coneys, a pie of shad, coarse meat.

Second dish. Roast: boar's tail with hot sauce 26, decorated fricassee,
olives, sweetened milk with crusts in it, venison, browned [vegetables],
jellies, crusts in milk a la dodine, capon pies, cold sage soup, pies of cow
and talemouse[13].

[13]cut bread? (JH). But according to Terrance Scully, this is a kind of
cheese and egg pie (EGC).

Eden Rain
raghead at liripipe.com

Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 15:18:55 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: SC - Menus and Veggies (was: German cookbook...)

Gwen Catrin von Berlin wrote:
>I am working on translating and webbing (in English) "Ein New Kochbuch" 1581,
>by Marxen Rumpolt.  The corrected Salad section has been added to the web,
>but I am taking a small break in the baked goods chapter, to get a
>transcription and translation of the selection of "sample feasts" he has in
>the first 40+ pages of the book.
>
>I will be the Koch for the Barony of Caerthe 's Arts & Sciences Competition
>feast in early November, and would like to keep it period, documentable, and
>DELICIOUS!
>(Ya'll come now, Ya hear !!!)
>so I wanted a better base of how he claims a feast was constructed.  I am
>rather appalled how LITTLE veggie matter is listed in the actual menus.

This seems to be typical. As I remember, the English menus (royal 
feasts, installation of a bishop, etc.) quoted by Austin in _Two 
Fifteenth Century Cookery Books_ have no or almost no vegetables 
listed. I have just been looking through Le Menagier's menus, and he 
typically has a couple of vegetables listed out of about 20 or 30 
dishes for a meat-day dinner, and maybe three or four for a similar 
fish-day dinner. It might be that vegetables were thought of as 
lower-class, what you bought when you couldn't afford better, and 
therefore weren't much eaten at feasts or elaborate dinners. Or it 
could be that they were eaten but not mentioned any more than the 
bread was. I remember that Chiquart, after going through in detail 
the meats, spices, eggs, dried fruit, etc., needed for his 
prospective feast, says rather dismissively:

"And so that the workers are not idle, and so that they do not lack 
for anything, there should be delivered funds in great abundance to 
the said kitchen masters to get salt, pot-vegetables and other 
necessary things which might be needed, which do not occur to me at 
present."

Elizabeth/Betty Cook

Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 19:46:02 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Menus and Veggies (was: German cookbook...)

Elizabeth wrote: 
> bread was. I remember that Chiquart, after going through in detail
> the meats, spices, eggs, dried fruit, etc., needed for his
> prospective feast, says rather dismissively:
> 
> "And so that the workers are not idle, and so that they do not lack
> for anything, there should be delivered funds in great abundance to
> the said kitchen masters to get salt, pot-vegetables and other
> necessary things which might be needed, which do not occur to me at
> present."

Taillevent says pretty much the same thing, IIRC, regarding the simple
[vegetable] pottages which, he says, any housewife knows how to make and
which need not concern us here. Le Menagier does include some recipes
for these, though. I guess his bride wasn't just any housewife.

Adamantius

Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 20:31:40 EDT
From: RuddR at aol.com
Subject: SC - Re: order of service of a meal

Phillipa writes:
>  I have been reading _Fast and Feast_ and _The Medieval Kitchen_.  I am 
> trying to get a sense of how the medieval / renaissance feast is served.
>  
>  In _The Medieval Kitchen_ the authors list some suggestions for serving a 
>  feast.  Am I correct in thinking that each course is a "little meal" sort of 
>  unto itself.  (I've been to several feasts and it seemed like that was the 
>  case)  I am having a hard time getting the 20th C model out of my head.
>  And:
>  Does a meal ALWAYS start with wine?

A good source for the ordering of medieval dinners can be found in Two 
Fifteenth-century Cookery-Books, ed. Thomas Austin. There is a section at the 
end of Harleian MS 279, listing the menus for several historic dinners and 
feasts. It can be found online at:
http://www.hti.umich.edu/bin/me-idx?type=HTML&rgn=DIV1&byte=3391465 
starting on page 57 and running to page 64.

Each course can indeed be seen as a separate meal ("little" hardly seems to 
be the word for some of the courses listed), and could be akin to sitting 
down to luncheon, dinner and supper without getting up in between.

Rudd Rayfield

Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 09:45:34 -0400
From: "Gaylin J. Walli" <gwalli at ptc.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: order of service of a meal

Another good source other than the 2 15th Cent that
Rudd Rayfield recommended is Platina. You have to
search through it a bit, but Platina details what should
be served first, what should be served in the first
course, which dishes should be served with roasted
meats, when eggs should be served, what should be
served in the third course, etc. etc. I'm still looking
for what he thinks should be served in the 2nd course.
I personally think he forgot to put it in the book, cause
I must have read the damn thing 25 times already and
I've not been able to see it. :)

Iasmin de Cordoba, gwalli at ptc.com or iasmin at home.com

Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 14:54:21 -0600 (MDT)
From: grasse at mscd.edu (Martina Grasse)
Subject: SC - 4 banquests 4 kings

OK, here is a rough translation of the four banquets, I still need to do some 
cleanup on it, and there are (in all caps) some words I have not been able to 
translate.  I am considering using one of the 2 meat day feasts as a basis 
for the feast at  Caerthe's A&S Competition in November. (though I know I 
dont have budget (or other sources) for venison, grouse, mutton, and goose....)

OH, and I did find one phrase in the second meat day banquet for Emporers 
that sounds like the reference for... 'Serve side/veggie (zugemu:esz) dishes 
as are appropriate, and also sauces (dips) to accompany the meats.'

I do have a transcription of the German, but since few enough folks on list 
read it I will ask that if you want it, contact me directly (Or you might 
want to wait till Thomas has had a chance to make any corrections needed, and 
webbed it on his site.)

As always, feedback is appreciated!!!

In service to the dream,
Gwen Catrin von Berlin
________________________

Now follow four
banquets of the Kings 
in Hungary and Bohemia/ therein is noted/ what 
food and acutremetns/ not only on the meat/ but also
on the fast days/ are prepared.

The first course for the early meal/ on a meat day.
A large piece (of) Beef/ and smoked meat therby/
of all sorts of smoked meat.	1
Two capons in a soup/ anf of assorted roasted (things)
on top/ as follows/ specifically/ A Venison
loin roast/ also a roast leg of veal / and 
roasted on a Hazelwood skewet (rotissery)/ a part rubbed with garlic/ A veal
braturst/ a pork bratwurst/ and small birds roasted/ all
put with the capons onto the soup/ That is called Hungarian 
saddled soup.

The other course.
Thirty young chickens cooked yellow in the Hungarian style/ of those 
two for the master of the yard/ two for the master of the Kitchen/ and two 
for them that cooked it/ the other 
four and twenty served in silver.	3

<<19b>>

The third course.
Sixty capons/ prarie chickens/ snipe/ BIRKHAHNEN/ 
and wood grouse/ also assorted bird small and large/ and one calls 
it small roasts/ and also thereto young chickens and pheasants.	4

The fourth course.
Pork wild-game (assorted cuts?) cooked in pepper in the Hungarian style/ A 
sour kraut 
cooked with a smoked bacon/ and dried sausages/ and also with 
smoked capons and chickens.	5

The fifth course.
Two beef roasts/ A roasted Pig/ A veal roast/ 
A whole young lamb roasted/ A mutton haunch roasted/ A roasted 
goose/ A roasted wood grouse/ and also a young kid (goat!) roasted/
That one calls large roasts.	6

The sixth course.
A Rice cooked in milk	7
Kid meat (young goat) cooked green in the Hungarian style.	8
A large Hungarian torte.	9
A wild game Pie.	10
A white gelatine of pork/ made with garlic.	11

The last course to the fruits/ after the opportunity presents itself/
be it in winter or in summer/ should be (prepared) with comfits/ with marzipan/
with baked things/ with quince juice/ and of all sorts of preserved
fruits/ prepared. So (like it ) the kings of Hungary and Bohemia/ etc.

End of the first banquet/ of the kings of Hungary and Bohemia/
for the early meal/ on a meat day.

<<20a>>

The other banquet / of kings in 
Hungary and Bohemia

The first course for the evening meal/ on a meat day
Firstoff assorted salad/ A smoked pig/ hard boiled 
eggs and assorted smoked meat/ around the salad
arranged.	1
A quarter of a mutton/ and two capons that 
are smoked/ watered (soaked)/ and in a clear soup/
with whole pepper/ ginger/ nut meg blossom (mace)/ and parsely sprinkled.	2
A whole venison (doe) cooked with blod in the Hungarian style.	3
Sixteen capons for small roasts/ with assorted fowl.	4
Kid (young goat) meat yellow/ with a wine soup.	5
A pie of wild boar (?)/ And a green cabbage also
thereto.	6
A cooked veal meat with verjuice/ Thereto a Hungarian torte 
with many leaves (layers)	7
Thereafter large roasts/ as described earlier in the early meal/
Also sauces (for dunking) as belong with roasts.	8

The other course.
A wild boars head cooked cold/ A pressed Boarshead/
and thereto old chickens white/ cooked with sour limes (lemons?).	9

The third course.
Two whole roasted rabbits/ with an apple sauce (???)	10
Barley cooked/ with veal sausages.	11

The fourth course.
Young goose cooked with blood/ in the Hungarian style.	12
A gelatine made of old chickens yellow/ A large piece of beef/
and also white peas cold with Maluasier (sweet wine?)	13

The last course to the fruits/ after the opportunity presents itself/
be it in winter or in summer/ should be (prepared) with comfits/ with marzipan/
with baked things/ with quince juice/ and of all sorts of preserved
fruits/ prepared. So (like it ) the kings of Hungary and Bohemia/ etc.

End of the first banquet/ of the kings of Hungary and Bohemia/
for the evening meal/ on a meat day.

<<20b>>

The third banquet / of kings in 
Hungary and Bohemia

The first course for the early meal/ on a Fast day 
An almond soup.	1
A pea soup/ with pike stomachs/ or with pike
livers/ and parsely root.	2
Cooked eggs	3
A fried (roasted) pike with a garlic.	4
Eggs and Schmaltz (rendered and seasoned fat) with onions.	5

The other course.
A Sturgon cooked in pepper.	6
Blue (a cooking method involving poaching an unscaled fish in an acidic 
water, making the outer skin turn bluish) cooked sturgon.	7
A spinach with baked fish and warm fried fish/ layed around 
the cabbage.	8
A pike cooked yellow (with saffron?) in the Hungarian style/ nicely filleted.	9
CAPTITADE of pikes	10

The third course.
A sturgon cooked in its own broth/ and parsely root/
and also grated horseradish tossed thereover.	11
Blue cooked trout.	12
A Hungarian cheese soup/ with a good sour cream/ and 
with young cheese let simmer.	13

The fourth course.
A carp cooked in a black (blood) stock/ with limes/ nicely in the Hungarian 
style	14
Karp and pike cooked cooled/ and in a silver served.	15
A pike pie warm.	16
A gellatine made of pikes yellow (with saffron)	17
A rice cooked in a milk.	18

The last course to the fruits/ after the opportunity presents itself/
be it in winter or in summer/ should be (prepared) with comfits/ with marzipan/
with baked things/ with quince juice/ and of all sorts of preserved
fruits/ prepared. So (like it ) the kings of Hungary and Bohemia/ etc.

End of the third banquet/ of the kings of Hungary and Bohemia/
for the early meal/ on a Fast day.

<<21a>>

The fourth banquet / of kings in 
Hungary and Bohemia

The first course for the evening meal/ on a Fast day
A caper soup with black rasins.	1
A spinach soup.	2
Assorted salad in a silver/ covered with hard boiled eggs/
and larded (scatterd through) with fried (roasted) fish.	3
Fresh cooked eggs.	4

The other course.
A pike cooked nicely gray (Im assuming they mean not blue, meaning no vinegar 
or acid in the cooking water)	5
A carp roe cooked with olive oil and onions.	6
Trout cooked yellow (with saffron)/ in the Hungarian style/ with limes 
(lemons?)	7
A cabbage cooked/ and with assorted fried (roasted) fish/ small and large/ 
covered.	8

The third course.
Pike and carp cooked blue/ and all in a silver prepared.	9
A fried (roasted) pike nicely warm.	10
A cold pike pie.	11
A mash (porredge) in a silver.	12

The foruth course.
Cooked gobi.	13
A black pike with salted limes (lemons)	14
An almond cheese.	15
A white gelatine made of carp/ nicely sourish (acidic)	16
Of a large STIR cooked in KASSENADT/ and green parsely
tossed thereover.	17
A Hungarian torte.	18
A salmon cooked blue.	19
An artichoke cooked in a pea broth.	20

The last course to the fruits/ after the opportunity presents itself/
be it in winter or in summer/ should be (prepared) with comfits/ with marzipan/
with baked things/ with quince juice/ and of all sorts of preserved
fruits/ prepared. So (like it ) the kings of Hungary and Bohemia/ etc.

End of the fourth banquet/ of the kings of Hungary and Bohemia/
for the late meal/ on a Fast day.

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 23:02:55 -0400
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: SC - A Spanish Menu

I found a website which listed a day's menu for a 16th century Spanish 
bishop.  The address is http://www.jimena.com/cocina/

Here it is, in the original Spanish and a quick translation.

MUESTRARIO DE LA MESA DEL ARZOBISPO - 1568 

Lunes, 9 de febrero de 1568. 
Monday, February 9, 1568

COMIDA: comen Su seÒorÌa y 4 caballeros.
Dinner: eaten by His Lordship and 4 gentlemen

- - Pan vino y naranjas dulces
Bread, wine, and sweet oranges

- - 2 gallinas asadas.
2 roast hens

- - 6 perdices asadas.
6 roast partridges

- - Costrada de medio cabrito (5 huevos en yemas, manteca y especias). 
Pastry of half a kid goat (5 egg yolks, fat, and spices)

- - JabalÌ asado.
Roast wild boar

- - Albondigas apedreadas de carnero con 8 huevos en yemas.
"stone" mutton meatballs with 8 egg yolks [the verb apedrear means to 
throw or pelt with stones.  I would guess these meatballs are shaped 
like stones]

- - Carnero cocido, 2 libras.
Boiled mutton, 2 pounds

- - Nabos en tocino.
Turnips in bacon

- - Puerco cocido, 2 libras.
Boiled pork, 2 pounds

- - Peros, 4 libras.
Apples, 4 pounds ["pero" is a specific variety of apple]

- - 2 cardos.
2 cardoons

- - Aceitunas y queso, 50 nueces.
olives and cheese, 50 walnuts
 
CENA: comieron Su seÒorÌa y 2 caballeros
Supper: eaten by His Lordship and 2 gentlemen

- - Entrada contada.
Uncommon entree

- - 3 perdices asadas.
3 roasted partridges

- - 1 conejo.
1 rabbit

- - 3 gazapos.
3 young rabbits

- - Cabezuelas de cabritos asadas.
Small heads of roast kid goats

- - Torta de queso.
Cheese pie

- - 6 huevos.
6 eggs

- - Postres contados.
Uncommon desserts

The thing I find the most interesting is the mention of sweet oranges.  
Until this, the earliest mention I'd seen for them in Spain was 1607.

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 13:59:25 -0800
From: Rose <rose at santiagosmagic.com>
Subject: SC - Re: coronation menu (long)

"Entertaining Elizabeth I," by June Osborne, doesn't have the coronation menu. 
There's a brief throw-away line about Elizabeth dining before going out to meet
the populace on her coronation day, and that's it.

It does, however, include a couple of expense sheets for other dinners:

Expenses of the Queen's Table, 1576

"The Queenes Majesty's dyett as she hath bene daylye servid.

Breakfast

Cheate and mancheate
Ale and beare
Wine

Flesh for pottage.

Mutton for the pott
Longe bones
Ise bones
Chines of beafe
Short bones
Chines of beafe
Connyes
Butter

Flesh for pottes.

Mutton for the pott
Long bones
Ise bones
Chines of beef
Chines of mutton
Short bones
Chines of veal
Chickens for grewell
Veale
Chines of beafe
Butter

"Sunday Supper the 19th of November, anno ut supra."

"The Queenes Majesty's booke"
1st Course
Cheate and mancheate
Bere and ale
Wine
Fleshe for the potte,
Mutton boyled
Mutton rost
Capon gr.
Herons
Connyes
Chickins bake

2nd Course.
Lambe or kydde
Cocks or godwitts
Partridges
Pejons or plovers
Larks
Tarte
Butter
Eggs

"The Queenes Majesty's daylie service."
1st Course
Cheate and mancheate
Bere and ale
Wine
Sallets
Mutton boylde
Chickins boylde
Larks boyde
Partirdges
Slised beafe
Mutton rost
Capon gr.
Chickins
Teales
Tonges
Udders
Cocks
Chickin pies
Doucetts

2nd Course
Feasants
Partridges
Snites
Plovers
Larks
Connyes
Bitters
Great birdes
Larks bake
Tarte
Butter
Eggs

"Mondaye Dynner the 20th of November, anno ut supra."
"The Queenes Majesty's booke."
Cheate and mancheate
Bere and ale
Wine

1st Course
Fleshe for the pott,
Beafe
Mutton
Veale
Signet
Capon gr.
Connyes
Friants
Custerde
Fritter

2nd Course
Lambe or kidde
Herons or feas
Cocks or goodwitts
Chickin
Pejons
Larks
Tarte
Fritter
Butter
Eggs

"The Queenes Majesty's daylie service."
Cheate and mancheate
Bere and ale
Wine

1st Course
Capon gr. boylde
Cocks boylde
Larks b.
Chickins b.
Mutton b.
Salt brewes
Beafe
Beafe
surloyne
Veale rost
Capon gr.
Cocks
Plover
Snites
Connye pies
Custerde

2nd Course
Pullets gr.
Teales
Partridges
Fesants
Chickins
Connys
Larks bake
Tarte
Butter
Eggs
Pannado.
Capon gr.
Previe Kichen
Cheate
Mancheate
-----------
Rose

Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 12:59:56 -0600
From: Ted Eisenstein <Alban at delphi.com>
Subject: SC - Shopping lists (period)

I'm winding my way through a book on Richard III's Coronation. Near the
end it gives the menus for the coronation feast and for the vigils of the
Knights, errrr, knighted the day before. It also gives what seems to be the
shopping list for those feasts - or at least the ingredients list. (In essence,
both what went into the kitchen and what came out the other side. <grin>)

I'm wondering if such a thing might actually be of use for SCA purposes.
I know the menus would be - but how many of y'all might find shopping lists
also useful?

Alban

Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 21:04:09 -0400
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] King Henry IV's Coronation Feast ..

Don't know if anyone replied with a source for the menu.
It's part of the Harleian Manuscript 279 found in Austin,
Two Fifteenth Century Cookery-Books, beg. at page 57.
Or online at:
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/c/cme/cme-idx?type=longhead&byte=3356093

Or in Cindy Renfrow's Take A Thousand Eggs Or More at page 584.

Hope this helps.
Johnnae llyn Lewis
Johnna Holloway

Melody Mahanna wrote:
>    Rejoined the list today and I already have questions! *grins*   I am
> trying to find information on King Henry IV's coronation feast.
> SNIPPED .....

Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 10:27:18 -0500
From: Alex Clark <alexbclark at pennswoods.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Source information for te make-up of
	removes?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

At 08:44 PM 2/21/2004 +1000, Marion wrote:
> What I actually need help here with is trying to explain to a friend (a
> member of a Viking/dark ages group that does very little food research) why
> the idea of separate "soup/appertiser"; "main" and "dessert" courses is a
> modern invention.
>
> I'm tying to explain that a standard medieval remove would consist of a
> variety of dishes meant to bolster the eaters "humours"
>
> Am I totally off the beam on this?  Can anyone flip me a well worded
> explantion (including source) that I can pass one?

You are sort of right to the extent that meals weren't organized in the
same ways as in modern America. There is some documentation for menus,  
but I don't know if there is any for the dark ages and the viking era.

Some of the sources for feast menus usd or recommended in period are:

Hieatt, Constance and Sharon Butler. _Curye on Inglysch_. New York,  
1985.

_Two Fifteenth-Century Cookery Books_.
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/c/cme/cme-idx?type=HTML&rgn=TEI.2&byte=3356093

Le Menagier de Paris. http:/www.pbm.com/~lindahl/menagier/

These are from the 14th and 15th centuries. Some of the general rules or
tendencies of these menus are:
   - A wide variety of foods can be served in one course, or in one platter
(/assiette/).
   - Some types of foods, uch as tarts, fritters, fried slices, cream of
almonds, fruits, and nuts, tend to appear mainly in later courses.
   - The English often listed a pottage (e. g. porridge or thick stew) at
the beginning of each course, and approximately dessert-like foods at the
end of the course.

The word dessert was in use, at least in French (/desserte/), but it didn't
quite mean what we mean by it -- according to le Menagier, foods served  
for dessert included frumenty and venison.

Henry of Maldon/Alex Clark

Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 18:06:59 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] In need of English Ren feast menus
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Tatiana asked:
> I am seeking some actual feast menus that would have been served during the
> English Renaissance period. The feasts could be for anyone from minor
> nobility to high royalty. Does anyone have a source (preferably electronic)
> or menus you could forward to me?

Hmmm, here are some sources to take a look at:

http://www.courses.fas.harvard.edu/~chaucer/special/lifemann/manners/ 
feast.html

http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~gloning/bookecok.htm

And a slightly earlier menu:

http://mysticwomen.mcmaster.ca/scriptorium/recipes.html

I don't know of an immediate source online, but Michael Best's edition of
Gervase Markham's "The English Housewife" has a long paragraph on the
"Ordering of banquets" (essentially a course of sweets) and several pages on
"Ordering of great feasts and proportion of expense."

And, IIRC, "Fabulous Feasts" has quite a bit of information on feasts and
menus which is much superior to the recipes.

Bear

Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 12:02:02 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Italian March menus
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

I forget who asked about March menus, but on an interesting historical  
note, I've been reading Sarah Bradford's biography of Lucrezia Borgia,  
and in it a note is made about a Lenten Friday feast Lucrezia, as  
Duchess of Ferrara, served to the French commanders who had come to the  
aid of Ferrara against Pope Julius II in 1513. The courses of the feast  
were noted by Bernardino di Prosperi in a letter to Isabella d'Este,  
marchioness of Mantua, who loved to keep tabs on whatever her  
sister-in-law was doing. Di Prosperi was apparently impressed that  
Lucrezia managed to get this feast together in a very short amount of  
time in Lent.

The feast started with an amphora of rosewater for washing hands. The  
table was set with milk bread, oat fritters and biscuits, marzipan, and  
cakes made of pine-nut flour. Muscatel and Trebbiano were among the  
wines. Salads contained chopped endive, young cabbage, lettuce,  
anchovies, capers, and caper flowers. Lots of fish: large prawns,  
sturgeon roe mixed with cinnamon, sugar, and rosewater, boiled dished  
of large pike, sturgeon, ray, tuna, and salted ray accompanied by  
juniper-flavored herb soup and herb sauce. There was also fried pike,  
large tench, sturgeon, large trout, and carp, accompanied by little  
freshwater fish, olives, oranges, and lemons. There was a course of  
small squid sliced, ravioli and zest of lemon, with a spicy sauce.  
Scallops, winkles, oysters, sea truffles. On the nonfish items there  
were herbed omelettes made with more than 100 eggs each, an arrowroot  
tart, Lombard tarts. The fruit course had pink apples, pears, cheese  
from Piacenza, peeled almonds, grapes, sultanas, and small plums, crisp, thin cakes, and punch made  
from brandy, cloves, and sugar. For sweets there were sugared almonds,  
angelica sweets, pears and peaches preserved in grappa, preserved pine  
nuts and aniseed.

Diners heard psalms sung at the beginning of the meal and were  
serenaded by lutes, viols, and cornets as they dined. Guests' departure  
and entrance were marked by woodwinds.

The information was found on pages 324-325 of this book, "Lucrezia  
Borgia," in the chapter "Lucrezia Triumphant."

There's a little more information in the book about how the kitchens  
were supplied at Ferrara, what they used, and what they grew and  
raised. Let me know if it's of interest to anyone, and I'll post it.

Gianotta

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2004 23:36:23 -0500
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Italian March menus
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

I wasn't going to reply, since Italian isn't My Thing, but...

There's an Italian cookbook/carving manual on the Fons Grewe website,
which includes daily menus for the year 1546.
Domenico Romoli's "La singolare dottrina di M. Domenico Romoli"
http://www.bib.ub.es/rewe/showbook.pl?gw007
The year of menus begins on March 10, the first day of Lent, so the
dishes listed are heavy on fish.  To get to that part of the manuscript,
type "65" in the search window, and click "anar a" (do not hit "enter"
instead").  The firs few days of March (ie., pre-Lent) begin with image
248.  It's all in Italian, of course, but menus are more amenable to
translation-by-dictionary than other kinds of text.
-- 
Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 23:53:14 +0200
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] How meals are served in period
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Am Samstag, 23. Juli 2005 22:00 schrieb Maggie MacDonald:
> Recently I noticed a feast that was served apparently an item at a
> time, not in "courses/removes" and was done really really well.
>
> Is there a document somewhere that describes a _simple_ meal? (I tend
> to doubt that because why would anyone write about a meal that wasn't
> unusual in some sense?)

I have been doing some digging in period German literature lately, and there
are occasional mentions of 'simple' meals (as in everyday meals, not peasant
fare). The literary standard seems to be one meat or fish course with bread.
I'm pretty sure this reflects an idealised reality, but a noble host who
serves every one of his guests a half chicken for lunch (Mauricius von Craun,
a 13th century knightly epic with satirical overtones) or a householder who
cooks a trout for himself and his guest (Pfaff Amis, a collection of humorous
stories) are certainly more believable than regal feasts at every 
corner.

Giano

Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:51:31 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
	<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] How meals are served in period
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On Jul 23, 2005, at 4:00 PM, Maggie MacDonald wrote:
> I've been curious about how meals are served in period. I"ve always
> been told that it was served in courses/removes, with each being a
> miniature meal in itself.
>
> Was this always done?

I doubt it. I think the multi-course, each-course-a-meal-in-itself
menus are for feast days, even in those places where this was
practiced. I believe there's enough documentation, both textual and
pictorial, for simpler meals, even for the wealthiest.
>
> Recently I noticed a feast that was served apparently an item at a
> time, not in "courses/removes" and was done really really well.

Have you seen Ermolao Barbaro's late 15th-century letter describing a
Milanese wedding feast, served in the style you describe above? I
believe Thomas Gloning has it on his website, translated into French
by Nostradamus in 1552. It gives some pretty fine detail on the
dishes served, but unfortunately, no recipes. Unfortunately, I don't
have a complete English translation. Anybody else?

> Is there a document somewhere that describes a _simple_ meal? (I
> tend to doubt that because why would anyone write about a meal that
> wasn't unusual in some sense?)

Well, even the English royal cookbooks like the Forme of Cury include
dishes described as being "for supper", and sources like le Menagier
also describe supper-type situations, as I recall. So clearly, they
did think these occasions worth writing about. They just didn't write
about them as much, probably because such occasions required less
planning, and were probably both less varied and more spur-of-the-
moment.

> I'm trying to plan a meal that the event steward has asked be
> themed in late period Italian, so that will play a part in it too.
> (I've been reading "The Stars Dispose" and "The Stars Compel" and
> getting lots of inspiration from their interpretations of Apicius).

Can you tell us a little more about these interpretations of Apicius?

Adamantius

Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:16:13 -0800 (PST)
From: "Cat ." <tgrcat2001 at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Period German menus
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Im on digest, but had this forwarded to me (thanks
Johnnae)

If you have Rumpolt you have A TON of menus.  The
entire first section, pages 11 through 42, has menus.

I webbed a very rough on the fly translation of his
four banquets for kings at:
http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_ASkings1.htm

I used selections from that to base a feast on in
2000, that feast with recipes is also webbed.  Rumpolt
also hasamong several others: banquets for Emperors,
banquets for lords, even 'banquets for farmers' though
these last I belive should be taken with a large grain
of salt.

For most he has an early and a late meal on a meat day
and an early and a late meal on a fast day.

Please feel free to include a direct cc if you would
like more input from me (due to the digest delay.)

In Service
Gwen Cat
Outlands

----- Original Message -----
From  ranvaig at columbus.rr.com

I've been reading through Welserin and Rumpolt,  etc. and have found
great recipes, but I haven't come across anything with information on
menus.  Are there any lists of dishes served at a late period German
meal, or what the general order of service was?  How did it vary from
England, France, Italy, etc?

Just to be clear, I'm not looking for German SCA menus.

Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 08:18:08 +0100
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period German menus
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Am Donnerstag, 8. Februar 2007 04:34 schrieb ranvaig at columbus.rr.com:
> I've been reading through Welserin and Rumpolt,  etc. and have found
> great recipes, but I haven't come across anything with information on
> menus.  Are there any lists of dishes served at a late period German
> meal, or what the general order of service was?  How did it vary from
> England, France, Italy, etc?

Rumpoldt has model menus suitable for feasts of all classes in the first
chapter (though one wonders about his experience with peasants). You can also
find some menus described in the diaries of Paolo Santonino, secretary to a
late 14th century Italian bishop, who describes a visitation to the
German-speaking Alps (modern Austria and the Alto Adige) and devotes much
time to discussing the food the visitors were served. Unfortunately, I only
have a German translation on hand (the original is in Latin).

Other than that I never much bothered because all the menus I found were far
too opulent to suit the budget, expectations and appetite of the average SCA
crowd.

Giano

Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 08:31:18 +0100
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period German menus
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Am Donnerstag, 8. Februar 2007 16:31 schrieb Phil Troy / G. Tacitus
Adamantius:
> Sure it does. But do you think Rumpolt is talking about Piers the
> Plowman when he speaks of a feast menu for a farmer?

IMO probably not. Many of the woodcuts used in texts of the time are more
symbolic than realistic, so the 'bauer' shown is likely representative of
'the' peasant (German in period does not distinguish semantically between
free and bond, small or large farmer, the estate of agriculturalists
collectively being referred to as 'Bau(e)r/Pau(e)r/(Ge)bur'. There are more
specific legal terms, but these are hardly ever commonly used. So the
situation is different from English which has common use designators such as
yeoman, peasant and cotter.

If we look at the actual menus, they conspicuously exclude most exotic
specialties or high-class game, consisting os dishes such as boiled or roast
beef, roast goose, dried meat, roast piglet or pork, sausages, bacon,
chickens, red beets, sauerkraut, cheese, eggs, local fruit and baked goods
made with plenty of eggs and daiury products. To me, this sounds a realistic
note. Not that I would say this reflects average peasant fare, but it sounds
convincing as the kind of dishes and variety a seriously wealthy farmer or
well-off farming community could serve on a special occasion. By way of an
example the first farmers' banquet on a meat day, first meal of the day (off
the cuff, don't nail me down on deatils in this one):

Course 1
Beef soup with sops

Boiled beef, capon and dried meat, all in the same bowl, with  
'kran' (sour cream?) sauce

Course 2
Roast goose, ropast mutton leg with sage, roast pig, roast chickens,  
a veal roast, bratwurst, all in the same dish
Sere with it pickled red beets with 'kran' sauce

Course 3
Sauerkraut, boiled and served with bacon and ringed with bratwursts

Course 4
Boiled chickens in yellow sauce (or pickled, but he usually uses  
'eingemacht' to mean in a sauce)

Course 5
Pork galantine

Course 6
Apples and pears, nuts, cheese, all in the same dish
Cakes, wafers and other baked goods, also all in one dish.

I think this is not beyond the realm of the possible, though it is, of course,
massive extravagance by the lights of a farming community. But this is a
*feast* menu, so extravagance is the idea.

Giano

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 19:53:15 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] philosophical salad question
To: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net,	Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Helewyse's website has a number of menus posted from various
Italian sources.
http://www.geocities.com/helewyse/yulefeast.html
salads appear as dinner fare on Dec 15th
Lettuce and borage flower salad, Salad of cooked chicory, Macaroni
salad, Cooked carrot salad, Salad of capers currants and sugar, Salad of
feet of kid.
I know that we went with Giacomo Castelvetro and Platina for the actual
salad recipes.

Johnnae

Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise wrote:
> I've been doing a lot of salads lately for events and things. Mostly,
> because I don't think enough people experience a medieval-type salad
> often enough, and I think it's good to show them what it's like. I
> haven't done a lot of sops or boiled greens on toast, though.
>
> Since it's unclear how often salads were served, should I try to limit
> how often I make salad in the SCA?

Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 00:47:29 -0400
From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Bohemian recipes
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Rumpolt's Ein New Kochbuch has menus for "vier Bancket der Konigen in Vngern vnd B?hem"

http://www.geocities.com/ranvaig/medieval/EinNewKochbuch.pdf (starting at pg 13)
Its transcribed but not translated yet.  This is 1581, very late period.
There might be other Bohemian recipes, but I'm not finding them just now.

Ranvaig

<<< Someone asked me about Bohemia in 2006 and we didn't really find
anything. The first published cookbooks are much much later.

Johnnae >>>

Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 12:28:13 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Menus
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Speaking of menus, this volume has appeared:
Menus from History: Historic Meals and Recipes for Every Day of the Year
by Janet Clarkson.

   * *Hardcover:* 1008 pages
   * *Publisher:* Greenwood (July 14, 2009)
   * *Language:* English
   * *ISBN-10:* 0313349304
   * *ISBN-13:* 978-0313349300

Cost: $195.00

http://www.greenwood.com/catalog/GR4930.aspx  says:

" Description: /Menus from History: Historic Meals and Recipes for Every
Day of the Year/ offers a fascinating exploration of dining history
through historic menus from more than 35 countries. Ranging from
discussion of a Roman banquet in A.D. 70 to a meal for former South
African President Nelson Mandela in the 1990s, the menus offer students
and general readers a thoroughly delightful way to learn more about
events and the cultures in which they occurred. Royal feasts, soldier
grub, shipboard and spaceship meals, and state dinners are just some of
the occasions discussed.
Arranged chronologically, each entry covers a day of the year and
provides a menu from a significant meal that took place. An entry begins
with the name, location, and date of the event, plus a brief explanation
of its significance. Next comes the menu, followed by an analysis and,
where possible, several recipes from the menu.
*Title Features:*

   * Day-by-day essays with menus and recipes help students become a
     part of history
   * 50 period illustrations and halftones complement the text
   * A glossary of food terms and names of dishes will prove
     indispensable to readers and researchers
   * Numerous sidebars offer charming details about the meals presented

About the Author: *Janet Clarkson* is a culinary historian and columnist
in Australia. Her food blog is The Old Foodie.

And that blog is located at:
http://www.theoldfoodie.com/

Johnnae

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 10:46:09 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>,
	SCA_Subtleties at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Sca-cooks] A Feast in the Time of Chaucer

The March 2010 newsletter for the Barony of Cynnabar
has just published my latest article titled:

"A Feast During the Time of Chaucer"

It features an account of the little known 1368 wedding feast of  
Lionel, Duke of Clarence
to Violante, daughter of Galeazzo Visconti, Lord of Pavia and Milan.
We discussed this feast back in the fall of 2002 on the Sca Cooks  
list. I did research on it then and managed to find the menu. I  
returned to the subject in January and
completed this article then.

The article can be downloaded at:
http://chronicler.cynnabar.org/citadel/

Johnnae

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:12:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] une graunt mangerye -- a 13th century menu
	(Hieatt)

In one of her articles, Constance B. Hieatt edits, comments on and translates a 
menu preserved in the Treatise of Walter of Bibbesworth (13th century). It is a 
wonderful article with many references to other menus of the time, a discussion 
of certain dishes, differences between the English and the French style etc etc:

Constance B. Hieatt: 
"Ore pur parler del array de une graunt mangerye": The Culture of the "Newe 
Get,", Circa 1285.
In: Acts of Interpretation. The text in its contexts 700-1600. Essays on 
Medieval and Renaissance Literature in honor of E. Talbot Donaldson. Edited by Mary J. Carruthers and Elizabeth D. Kirk.
Norman, Oklahoma: Pilgrim Books 1982, 220-233.

On p. 233, the last page, she gives a modern translation of the passage:

"A fashionable yeoman who came from a great banquet has told us about the
feast, how their service was ordered. Without bread and wine and ale, no
one at a feast will be at ease, but there was plenty of all three on the side (or, of choice varieties) he has told us. But it is worth knowing about the course which they had first: the head of a boar, larded, with the snout well garlanded, and enough for the whole household of venison fattened during the
closed season, served with frumenty. And then there was a great variety of
cranes, peacocks, and swans; kids, pigs, and hens. Then they had rabbits in
gravy all covered with sugar, Viaunde de Cypre and Mawmenny, red and
white wine in great plenty; and then quite a different multitude of roasts,
each of them set next to another: pheasants, woodcocks, and partridges;
fieldfares, larks, and roasted plovers; blackbirds and song,thrushes, and other
birds I cannot name; and fried meat, crisps, and fritters, with sugar mixed
with rosewater. And when the table was taken away, sweet spice powder
with the large dragee, maces, cubebs, cloves, and enough other spicery and
plenty of wafers. Now you have finished my discourse, for here in French
there are enough of many diverse matters, which you have completely
finished, gentlemen: I commend you all to the Son of God."

E.

Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 18:41:47 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sources for English feast menus?

Do you just want SCA mentioned sources from the Florilegium or do you  
want academic sources?

If the latter, there are several more of course.  John Russell's  Boke  
of Nurture for instance.

A search under such words as medieval English feast menus
will reveal a number of others. Try Google Books or Scholar for more  
that can be searched at home without access to the academic databases  
like Article first or OBO.

Johnnae
Co-author of the OUP Oxford Bibliographies Online Authority and  
Innovation for Research Bibliography on Medieval Food and Drink.

On Mar 31, 2011, at 5:15 PM, Alexander Clark wrote:
<<< What sources do we know of for medieval English feast menus? What I
have been working with is the menus in Austin's _Two Fifteenth-Century
Cookery-Books_, Napier's transcription of the _Noble Boke off Cookry_,
Hieatt & Butler's _Curye on Inglysch_, MS Arundel 334 AKA "Ancient
Cookery", and the coronation of Richard III at
www.florilegium.org/files/FEASTS/p-Coronat-fst-art.rtf .

A wealth of information, to be sure, but is there anything I'm  
missing?
Henry/Alex >>>

Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 05:30:02 -0700
From: David Walddon <david at vastrepast.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Neapolitan recipe collection

<<< Has anyone translated the menus in Scully's Neapolitan recipe collection?  I tried with an online translator and became very frustrated.  
Merraede >>>

These menues are in Buhler 19 (original source) and are very difficult because of the dialect. 
They are actually written in Neoapolitan which is a strange combination of Castilian and Tuscan with some of its own stuff thrown in. 
I am not sure any of the online translators would be helpful. 

The menus are also transcribed in Arte Della Cucina. 

Eduardo 

Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 13:02:33 -0500 (EST)
From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Swan recipes

In fact it's worth noting that the whole idea of a fixed set of courses was 
still very much in flux in this time. The Menagier de Paris includes over 
20  menus and most follow no obvious shared sequence. It's mainly the 
wedding menus  - the grandest - which follow something like the soup, etc. courses that became  the Western standard.

The history of courses (which I believe Flandrin has done to some degree)  
is interesting in itself. The Romans (at least at the highest levels) had a  
fairly (if loosely) organized sequence (which they shorthanded as "from 
eggs to  apples"). There are still traces of this in the early Merovingian 
period, along  with clear indications then and in Charlemagne's time that SOME 
idea of services  existed. But exactly what we don't know, except that by the 
time records become  more extensive the sequence seems to have become 
anarchic.

Bear in mind  too that in France at the start of the fourteenth century, in 
theory, at least,  meals were supposed to be limited to two courses.

Some credit Ziryab, a  fascinating figure in cultural history, with 
inventing the sequence that became  standard in Western cuisine. He lived in Spain about 100 years after Charlemagne  (and is also credited with establishing 
the bases for flamenco and for seasons  in fashion); if his ideas made it to 
fourteenth century France, I would guess it  was via the East.

But we should be cautious about saying any food was  universally served in 
any course at this time; there still seems to have been a  lot of room for 
leeway.

Jim  Chevallier
www.chezjim.com

Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 17:42:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Flandrin: the medieval order of meal

Maybe you can give your own summary of his look at medieval dining order?  
Mine was based on a quick read.

Probably the main thing for most medieval food recreationists to note is  
that the more formal order (soup, roast, etc) that ended up being the norm 
for  centuries was reserved (in the Menagier at least) for major events like  
weddings. Otherwise, the order seems to have been very fluid. Any trace of 
the  old Roman order (which can be faintly detected in early medieval 
accounts) seems  to have disappeared.

Jim  Chevallier

Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2013 14:45:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Orders of meals: Humbert II (14th c)

Following up on our Flandrin thread....

Menus for this period, beyond the Menagier and some very fancy ones added  
after the fact to the Viandier, are rare. So some might find it useful to 
see  what the Dauphin Humbert II had served in his household:

Recherches sur la l?gislation criminelle et la l?gislation de police, en  
...
By  Jacques Berriat-Saint-Prix
"Description  des repas de Humbert II" p57
http://books.google.com/books?ei=oK1uUoTfKYvwiQKkz4HYDQ&dq=humbert+dauphin+l
ard&jtp=57&id=-4F23ceEM_0C#v=onepage&q=humbert%20dauphin%20lard&f=false

Roughly, most meals for himself and anyone noble were of a soup, an  
entremets and a roast, with cheese or fruit for dessert. There are variants -  
sometimes, for instance, pate' replaced the soup.

Interesting that one of the few dishes to be reserved for Humbert himself  
was... tripe "well purified and cooked in water". Yummy.

The servants (p 66) got basically one dish and a soup or vegetables,  
sometimes even less.

This data is no more definitive than that examined by Flandrin, but it does 
slightly expand the examples available, and has the advantage of showing 
daily  fare as opposed to major feasts.

Jim  Chevallier

Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 02:42:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] 1389 list from Duke of Burgundy's feast

It seems that nobody has published the  "comptes de Josset de Halles", 
which are held in departmental archives, but  another work gives this extract 
from 1389 for a meal from the Dukes of Burgundy:   

"hens in saffron, pheasants in gold power, braised guinea hens, preserved  
anise and garlic [!] served as comfits, ground barley, spinach in sugar,  
*rousset* [wheat-rye bread?], green wheat, wafers, pots of green ginger, apple 
verjuice with clove, nutmeg?, hypocras, spice wine and Gascony claret, 
served in  gold hanaps."

Itin?raire de Paris ? la m?diterran?e: itin?raire descriptif et historique  
Adolphe Joanne Hachette, 1867

_http://books.google.com/books?id=3vD_mpo_YHEC&dq=malade%20repas%20%22moyen%
20age%22%20hopital&pg=PA200#v=onepage&q&f=false_ 

Jim  Chevallier
_www.chezjim.com_ (http://www.chezjim.com/)

From: elise fleming <alyskatharine at gmail.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Wedding Feast of Henry VII
Date: July 2, 2014 at 12:05:29 AM CDT
To: sca-cooks <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>,  SCA Subtleties E-List <SCA_Subtleties at yahoogroups.com>

Greetings! The Old Foodie (http://www.theoldfoodie.com/) is an Australian
woman's blog about...food. Periodically she delves into things of interest
to a Scadian. The July 2 blog is entitled "The Nuptial Table of Henry VII"
(1486) and contains the menu for this feast. There are a few items of
interest to subtlety folk, including an initial "warner" for both courses.
The menu is from *Account of London* by Thomas Pennant, published in 1790.

If you have the time and inclination, you could check through recent months
for blogs about Tudor and Elizabethan foods.

Alys K.
-- 
Elise Fleming
alyskatharine at gmail.com
alysk at ix.netcom.com
http://damealys.medievalcookery.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8311418 at N08/sets/

Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 01:34:28 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] fwd: [MR] BBC: Richard III's Diet and
	Drinking

Richard and Anne's coronation banquet is detailed in 
Sutton and Hammond. The Coronation of Richard III. The Extant Documents. 1984.

Worth a look if you are interested in royal banquets. The July issue of BBC History carries an article on Richard III. On page 55 a short section details the 1483 banquet receipts. 

Johnnae

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 00:10:52 -0500
From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] A fifteenth century menu

A  medieval meal you might have missed:

Banquet given by master Josse de Trazegnies, knight, Lord  Dirchounlez, of Sepmeries and Inchies on February 10, 1482 in Gand 
_http://gallica.bnf.fr/?/bpt6k57?/f249.image.r=crespes.langEN_ 
(http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k57102457/f249.image.r=crespes.langEN)  
Starting  with a salad of greens cut up fine with carrots and.. 
raimponse?... Sounds  pretty Californian, no?

Jim  Chevallier
_www.chezjim.com_ (http://www.chezjim.com/)

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 15:20:13 -0500
From: Elise Fleming <alyskatharine at gmail.com>
To: sca-cooks <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] A fifteenth century menu

Jim Chevallier wrote:
<<< A  medieval meal you might have missed:

Banquet given by master Josse de Trazegnies, knight, Lord  Dirchounlez, 
of Sepmeries and Inchies on February 10, 1482 in Gand
_http://gallica.bnf.fr/?/bpt6k57?/f249.image.r=crespes.langEN_
(http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k57102457/f249.image.r=crespes.langEN) 

Starting  with a salad of greens cut up fine with carrots and..
raimponse?... Sounds  pretty Californian, no? >>>

"Raimponse" might be rampions (raiponce). "Rampions" were frequently 
eaten in salads.

Alys K.

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 20:28:51 +0000
From: Gretchen R Beck <cmupythia at cmu.edu>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] A fifteenth century menu

I'm more amused by the second item -- chicken (capons) in bastard wine with damson prunes -- Chicken and prunes is, I understand, an extremely popular 16th C English dish, with something of the repute that oysters have today.

toodles, margaret

From the fb "SCA cooks" group:
Ea Fleming
December 23 at 7:38 AM
Looking for fish day menus? Here's a Tudor one with some period recipes included. SCA's very own Helewyse DeBirkestad is listed in in the list of sources.

https://nerdalicious.com.au/history/a-tudor-fish-day-menu/

<the end>