darts-msg - 10/4/96

Period darts, both pub and combat.

NOTE: See also the files: taverns-msg, sports-msg, golf-msg, games-msg, games-cards-msg, hunt-spears-msg, p-falconry-bib, falconry-msg, hunting-msg.

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This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: sclark at epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Darts!
Date: 11 Jan 1994 14:16:01 -0500
Organization: EPAS Computing Facility, University of Toronto

Greetings all...
	My interest was piqued today by a bit in one of the local papers
on the neWorld Darts champion which mentioned something to the effect
that "In the Middle Ages (476-1453 (interesting dates, eh?) archers used
darts for training", it went on to mention that there were darts on the
Mayflower.
	My question to those on this bridge:  Is this true, or Complete
Quasi-historical Hooey?  If it is true, can anyone tell me more about
how one played at darts in period?  What kind of targets, what kind of
darts, and were there any rules?  I'd be interested to know, seeing as
I have rarely seen darts played at an SCA event in any form, and
my husband is a darts fiend of sorts.

Cheers--
Nicolaa/Susan
Canton of Eoforwic
sclark at epas.utoronto.ca

From: jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Darts!
Date: 13 Jan 94 14:04:39
Organization: STC Technology Ltd., London Road, Harlow, UK.

The bit about sir Galahad reminded me of one of the old Norse Myths:

Every Plant and animal had promised not to harm Baldir except the
mistletoe Nobody bothered asking the mistletoe because it was so
harmless it couldn't possibly hurt Baldir.

One day the gods were amusing themselves chucking rocks, arrows etc.
at Baldir and watching them bounce off without harming him (It doesn't
take much to keep a Norse God amused apparently)

Loki persuaded blind Hod to make a dart of Mistletoe and throw it at
Baldir. The mistletoe dart promptly killed him.

Is this an early example of the need for Marshalls and weapons checks?

Jennifer/Rannveik
Vanaheim Vikings

From: mtoler at bnr.ca (Michael Toler)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Darts!
Date: 12 Jan 1994 18:13:05 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Richardson, TX

Susan Clark (sclark at epas.utoronto.ca) wrote:
: Greetings all...
: 	My interest was piqued today by a bit in one of the local papers
: on the neWorld Darts champion which mentioned something to the effect
: that "In the Middle Ages (476-1453 (interesting dates, eh?) archers used
: darts for training", it went on to mention that there were darts on the
: Mayflower.
: 	My question to those on this bridge:  Is this true, or Complete
: Quasi-historical Hooey?  If it is true, can anyone tell me more about
: how one played at darts in period?  What kind of targets, what kind of
: darts, and were there any rules?  I'd be interested to know, seeing as
: I have rarely seen darts played at an SCA event in any form, and
: my husband is a darts fiend of sorts.

: Cheers--
: Nicolaa/Susan
: Canton of Eoforwic
: sclark at epas.utoronto.ca

The following is from a company recreation club newsletter.  No   
idea how valid it is.

"Darts were originally weapons of war.  The modern sport of darts
evolved from practice by ancient warriors.  During the Middle Ages, English
bowmen adapted their light flight arrows for an indoor game called
BUTTS, which was played by throwing shortened arrows, or dates, at the 
bottom(butt) of a wine cask.  By the 17th century, the modern CLOCK, or
20- point board face was born.  The popularity of darts spread quickly from 
England to the rest of the world and was introduced to North America by
Pilgrims on the Mayflower."

Hope this was of some use.

Don Gaspard du Lac
Steppes, Ansteorra.

mka Michael L. Toler
mtoler at bnr.ca

From: jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Darts!
Date: 12 Jan 94 17:09:02
Organization: STC Technology Ltd., London Road, Harlow, UK.

Have you come across Yorkshire darts boards? There aren't many left,
but the odd pub in Yorkshire still has one, they look like other
boards except there's a ring missing (it's the one that scores doubles
or trebles I can't remember which as I haven't played darts for years,
and then I was too inebriated to work out the scores most of the time!)

I'm told the Yorkshire board dates way back but I don't know how far
"way" is. So if you find refernces to old darts games don't assume
they were all played on the modern board.

I can't see darts being practical alternatives to arrows as they would
draw inside the bow and end up stuck in the archer's hand, and without
involving a bow I wouldn't have thought they would have helped much in
training other than getting general hand to eye co-ordination.

Modern Archers occasionally shoot at giant copies of dart boards when
in a silly mood, they get stuck on the front of straw butts in place
of standard targets.

On a similar vein there is an inn in Nottingham with a game involving
getting an iron hoop on a rope over a bull's horn which the landlord
claims is as old as the pub. The inn is called "the trip to jerusalem"
and is carved into the cliff walls below the castle. It was set up to
serve the crusaders, so if the landlord's right about the game it's in
period.

Jennifer
Vanaheim Vikings

From: nusbache at epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Darts!
Date: 12 Jan 1994 19:58:08 -0500
Organization: EPAS Computing Facility, University of Toronto

The theory about target darts (as opposed to those big Roman military
darts) is that if it was raining too hard on Sunday for archery
practice after Church, the lads would sit around in the tithe barn and
take broken arrows, whittle the fletch end to points, and throw them
at targets.

I have no idea about the historicity of this, however.

Cheers,
Aryk

From: kopp0614 at nova.gmi.EDU (Adam Hill Koppy)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: darts
Date: 13 Jan 1994 17:58:32 -0500

please for give me I'm going off of memory

2 years ago at chicago 12th night they had a period dart compotition
the target and the game was modern but the darts where about 10" long 1/2" dia 
at the front that was rounded off with a 2" steel point and then tapered to 
about 3/16" in the back where 3 fletching where tied but tied in the front of the feather only.

AHKoppy     

From: clevin at oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Craig Martin Levin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: darts
Date: 14 Jan 94 03:17:02 GMT
Organization: Ohio University CS Dept,. Athens

kopp0614 at nova.gmi.EDU (Adam Hill Koppy) writes:
>please for give me I'm going off of memory
>
>2 years ago at chicago 12th night they had a period dart compotition
>the target and the game was modern but the darts where about 10" long 1/2" dia 
>at the front that was rounded off with a 2" steel point and then tapered to 
>about 3/16" in the back where 3 fletching where tied but tied in the front of the freather only
>
>AHKoppy     

	I can verify that they did do this, having been one of the
	members of the group that won. I even still have the darts,
	which they let me keep as a consolation for having to leave
	early and so unable to be presented to TRM. I can't, however,
	say if darts were practiced before 1600.
-- 
Craig Levin                                Pedro de Alcazar
Ohio U. History Dept.	       Dernehealde, Shire of Middle Marches	
clevin at oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu	           Midrealm

From: udsd007 at dsok3005.okladot.state.ok.US (Mike Andrews)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Darts as a substitute for arrows
Date: 14 Jan 1994 10:35:21 -0500
Organization: Oklahoma Department of Transportation
 (Data Services Division, Technical Support Branch)

Greetings to all upon this wondrous bridge!
 
There has been much conversation recently about archers training with
with darts when it was inconvenient for them to shoot arrows. The 
tendency in this discussion has been to equate the "dart" of then 
with the modern recreational dart. I wonder if this equation is in 
fact an inequality. Far back in the dusty recesses of memory, I seem 
to recall something about "archers' darts" being much like an arrow in
length, but with heavier shafts and larger fletching - to make them
suitable for throwing by hand. I can not recall the source of this
fragmentary recollection, and am of two minds about posting this
note. I will go root around in my references now, and hope that _SOMEONE_
who knows more about this than I do will say something authoritative.
 
In trepidation, 

Mike Andrews                 udsd007 at ok3005.okladot.state.ok.us
(Michael Fenwick, O.L.)    (Strong contender for ugliest domain name)
Bny. of Namron                           I speak for myself only, not for 
Kingdom of Ansteorra          my employer, the SCA, or anyone else.

From: waltern at thoreau.rand.org (Walter Nelson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Darts as a substitute for arrows
Date: 14 Jan 1994 17:25:09 GMT
Organization: RAND Corporation

Mike Andrews (udsd007 at dsok3005.okladot.state.ok.US) wrote:
: Greetings to all upon this wondrous bridge!
:  
: There has been much conversation recently about archers training with
: with darts when it was inconvenient for them to shoot arrows. The 
: tendency in this discussion has been to equate the "dart" of then 
: with the modern recreational dart. I wonder if this equation is in 
: fact an inequality. Far back in the dusty recesses of memory, I seem 
: to recall something about "archers' darts" being much like an arrow in
: length, but with heavier shafts and larger fletching - to make them
: suitable for throwing by hand. I can not recall the source of this
: fragmentary recollection, and am of two minds about posting this
: note. I will go root around in my references now, and hope that _SOMEONE_
: who knows more about this than I do will say something authoritative.
:  
: In trepidation, 

: Mike Andrews                 udsd007 at ok3005.okladot.state.ok.us
: (Michael Fenwick, O.L.)    (Strong contender for ugliest domain name)
: Bny. of Namron                           I speak for myself only, not for 
: Kingdom of Ansteorra          my employer, the SCA, or anyone else.

The only mention I have seen for "darts" as a weapon of war is among the
Irish, where it was the traditional weapon of the Kern (the peasant levy).
It is not an "archers dart" in that it would be used not as a secondary
weapon for an archer, but as a primary weapon, or a weapon to be used in
combination with some close combat weapon.

It was much as you describe it.  It was about three feet long, with a
fairly heavy shaft, and a "broadhead" point.  It might or might not be
fletched with leather or parchment.  The usual tactic was to run up close
to the enemy, fling it and run away (repeat as needed).

The English described them as not particularly lethal, but "noisesome,
especially to horses".

                              Walter Nelson

From: drusilus <76065.727 at CompuServe.COM>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Darts (the Game): Is it Period ??
Date: 13 Sep 1996 23:48:59 GMT

I have seen some references to darts as a period game.  However, the
game to which they are referring is played with darts that more 
closely resemble crossbow quarrels than modern darts.

Drusilus

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