metalworking-msg – 10/14/06

Various bits of metalworking info. Gauge thicknesses, inlays.

NOTE: See also the files: metalworking-FAQ, metals-msg, metal-etching-msg, metal-sources-msg, tools-msg, tools-bib, blacksmithing-msg, bladesmithing-msg.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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c at tmsoft.UUCP (Leigh Clayton) writes: 
>  I have heard many places that US and Canadian guages are different, but
> so far neither the postings here nor anyone else has managed to convey 
> the difference to me. Can someone clear this up? Is it just that the 
> Queen has wider/narrower thumbs than the president? 
 
well, on the southern side of the border, for "sheet & plate, Iron and  
Steel" 
 
        GA              Decimal INches 
        20              .0375 
        18              .050
        17              .056
        16              .0625
        15              .070
        14              .078
        15              .0937
        12              .109
        11              .125
        10              .140
        
        This information is right off of my sheet gage, which runs from 
qa size of 0 (.3125") to 36 (.007")
 
R.J. Klessig  Hayward Ca..........Ch'ndra P'nthi Esfenn Mists West. 

From: cav at bmerh364.BNR.CA (Rick Cavasin)
Date: 2 Dec 91 20:58:08 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.

badorion at watyew.uwaterloo.ca (Brian A. Dorion) writes:
|>Greetings!  I am looking for advice on sources of information on copper -  
|>smithing.  I am interested in trying my hand at making copper bowls (to start
|>with at least) and was hoping that I could get some recomendations on 
|>good books on basic copperworking.
|>
|>Brian Dorion                  Herr Konrad Matthias Jaeger
|>Kitchener, Ontario            Bryniau Tywynnog, Ealdormere
|>Canada                                MK

Aside from the various books/sources mentioned by other
gentles, there are some sources closer to home you might
try. 
Although you are unlikely to find any books specifically
on copper- smithing in your local library, you should be
able to find something under general metalwork, or silver-
smithing.  The techniques used would be very similar.
I have seen a fairly comprehensive book on basic
metalwork in bookstores for about $17 (can't remember
the name off the top of my head but I plan to buy it).
Also try jeweller's supply stores (check yellow pages
or try Nautilus in Toronto).
Incidentally, many techniques used in silver smithing
are applicable to armouring.

Specifically, the techniques you will want to find out
about for making bowls are:

Construction:  raising
               sinking
               planishing

Ornamentation: chasing and repouse
               engraving
               inlay and gilding
               etching (late period)

If you have no luck, I have a bit of stuff I can
give you.  Contact me at one of the Ealdormere 12th nights.
        
Balderik of the Pathless Wastes       (Septemptrian exile)

From: donb at crash.cts.com (Donald Bowen)
Date: 3 Dec 91 20:31:18 GMT
Organization: Crash TimeSharing, El Cajon, CA

        I have always wanted to try making bowls by a rolling technique.
The first step is to turn a bowl shaped mandrel.  A metal disk is then
held against the mandrel with a block of wood and the tail stock.  While
the metal and mandrel turn, the metal is rolled against the mandrel by 
hand.  I saw a magazine article about that about  30 years ago and want 
to give it a try.

        DonB

From: cav at bmerh364.BNR.CA (Rick Cavasin)
Date: 4 Dec 91 17:20:10 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.

donb at crash.cts.com (Donald Bowen) writes:
|>      I have always wanted to try making bowls by a rolling technique.
|>The first step is to turn a bowl shaped mandrel.  A metal disk is then
|>held against the mandrel with a block of wood and the tail stock.  While
|>the metal and mandrel turn, the metal is rolled against the mandrel by 
|>hand.  I saw a magazine article about that about  30 years ago and want 
|>to give it a try.
|>
|>      DonB
         
Are you asking for advice?  I don't know whether the use of mandrels for
turning (spinning?) copper bowls would be a period technique, but I suspect
that it would be late period if at all.  I would recommend 'raising' the 
bowls from a 'purist' point of view, while sinking or dishing would be
the choice of expediency.  Spinning would work, and would be the best choice
if mass production is your objective.

Regards,
Balderik

From: DEGROFF at intellicorp.COM (Leslie DeGroff)
Date: 4 Dec 91 18:24:00 GMT
Organization: The Internet

  A couple little bits to the good comments already made.

I would add to Balderiks list of ornamentation techniques, 
   Nielo and enamaling,  Nielo is a mixture of silver, sulfer and ? that
is melted into engraved lines and shows black against the polished metal.

My opinion of Metal Techniques for Craftsman by Oppi Untrachi is lower
that the recommenders, worth checking out from the library, NOT WORTH
buying.  It is greatly padded with relativly poor pictures including
many pages half filled with pictures extracted directly from tool
catalogs.  This leads to a useful point, you should be able to
get free or cheap catalogs of tools, gem and metal working supplies
that are educational as well as advertising.  Untrachi is over 50$ 
there are a number of summary/survey books that cover as much for
12 to 20$, try a rock/gem shop  most of which will order (with more
markup) specialized art metal tools for you.

Some one else mentioned mandrel forming and appeared to be looking for
more info... technique with lathe or spinning mandrel and rounded 
pushing tool is called spinning, I believe that it is period but
not as common a hammer forming techniques,  Untrachi ect will have
"insufficient" but more details.   It you have access to lathes
this can be a "production" oriented process, recreating a 
medieval lathe is not hard and can be very educational. (:) Much harder
will be to get a strong apprentice to act as the MOTOR :))  Some but
not all modern (mostly Tin) pewters will work, the state of
annealling is critical for copper which work hardens quickly.

  In  terms of personal library and research, metal working is another
area that I can recommend DOVER publishing, many titles of related
interest.
 
Les

From: jonesm at nic.cerf.net (Matthew Jones)
Date: 5 Dec 91 16:53:17 GMT
Organization: CERFnet

donb at crash.cts.com (Donald Bowen) writes:
>       I have always wanted to try making bowls by a rolling technique.
>The first step is to turn a bowl shaped mandrel.  A metal disk is then
>held against the mandrel with a block of wood and the tail stock.  While
>the metal and mandrel turn, the metal is rolled against the mandrel by 
>hand.  I saw a magazine article about that about  30 years ago and want 
>to give it a try.

If I assume correctly that this is all done on a lathe, in this case
wood metal etc will do, then what you describe sounds like metal spinning.
There are lathes specifically set up for this. There are books on this 
subject, and the Community College near my house teaches it in a metal
shop class. Although it is not to common any more. They might talk
about metal spinning in the machinests guide.

Matthew Jones
jones at cerf.net

From: bpmeek at rodan.acs.syr.edu (Brian P. Meek)
Date: 11 Dec 91 23:05:11 GMT
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY

Greetings Gentles,
I've been following along in the Msg backlog, and noticed the 
discussion about spinning copper and if spinning is period or not.
First, speaking as a silversmith, annealed copper is one of the
easiest metals to spin...a good metal to learn with...avoid brass.
Also, do *NOT* attempt to spin except on a lathe especially designed
for that service:  you run a good chance of hurting yourself,
and you WILL trash the bearings on your lathe. (EXPENSIVE to replace.)
Second, about it being period, yes, at least in silver.
There is a set of nested silver bowls that were discovered with the
Sutton-Hoo trove in England. (c. A.D. 650) that were spun.
According to the man who restored them for the British Museum,
they were spun *into* a negative mold, rather than over a positive
as is the modern custom, but they *were* spun.
I don't have the exact citations with me, but the two I recall are
Hurburt Maryon's _Enameling & Metalwork_ (still avalible thru Dover)
Maryon was the man who restored them for the BM, and the second book
is the BM's own site report: _The Sutton-Hoo Ship Burial_ (vol.3)
By Rupert Bruce-Mittford.
In service,
Alberic, The Samurai Silversmith

From: mjl at rutabaga.Rational.COM (Matthew Larsen)
Date: 12 Dec 91 03:01:28 GMT

I've wondered for a long time about whether spinning was used in period for
metalworking, and I've got a few pieces of information to offer.  First off,
here is a section from "Craftsmanship and Function: A study of metal
vessels found in Viking Age tombs on the island of Gotland, Sweden" by
Gustaf Trotzig (Statens Historiska Museum, Stockholm 1991):

        Another technique: Spinning
        One manual technique which is practiced in modern production of
        metal vessels should also be mentioned here, as it appears from
        time to time in archaeological literature.  The reason why there
        has been this discussion of the method in relation to archaeo-
        logical finds is the fact that tool marks in the shape of 
        excentric parallel stripes frequently occcur on metal vessels
        from prehistoric times up to the Middle Ages [he gives some
        citations].  These are no doubt in many cases the result of a
        finishing work performed by means of a lathe, but have been
        misinterpreted as signs of spinning.
        [He goes on to discuss the technique of spinning and in 
        particular the power needed to spin brass, although admiting
        that copper and silver require less horsepower to spin] (p. 51)

So Trotzig doesn't believe that spinning was used, at least during the
Viking period (he doesn't really say whether he thinks this applys to
later periods or not).  Instead, he thinks the marks which are on items
like the Sutton Hoo bowls are the result of a final finishing on a lathe,
but that that finishing didn't involve shaping, so it's not spinning.
I don't know whether I trust Maryon or Trotzig more, but Trotzig's 
research is more current.

On the other hand, I have seen references to documents from the 16th 
century which stated that spinning had been banned from use in the 
production of pewterware, to the satisfaction of the Pewterworkers 
Guild :-) (I don't have a citation for this handy, if anyone is interested 
I will try to look it up).  Pewter, of course, is softer even than copper 
and silver, to say nothing of brass, or it may be that people were using 
water powered lathes by the 16th century, but not during the Viking period.
If anyone else has any insights to offer, I would love to hear them.

Geoffrey Mathias
Matt Larsen
mjl at rational.rational.com

Geoffrey Mathias
Matt Larsen
mjl at rational.rational.com

RE>Pennsic Tales
L.S.
	Blister steel was the type of steel used throughout the 
medieval time period, (in fact up through most of the 18th century!
it was superseded by "cast steel" which was common into our own
century.).  It is called blister steel due to a side effect of its
manufacture.
	The basic method is a case hardening process where you take
a piece of wrought iron and incase it in a clay box full of carbon
containing compounds and heat it up to red heat. Theophilius
describes this method in Divers Arts, under making files I believe.
The carbon from the compounds soaks into the wrought iron creating
a layer of "steel" on the outside of the piece.  The carbon content
decreases the deeper into the piece you go.  Time, temperature, and
what carbon compounds you use affect how deep and how high a carbon
content you get.

	To do blister steel, you just try to "case harden it to the bone"
You keep it at high temperature for extended lengths of time, like
bright cherry for 6 hours to 3 days!  This has a tendency to leave the
poor piece of wrought all "blistered".  After cleaning it up you have
a billet of steel with varying carbon content. One way to equalize the
carbon content is to fold and weld several times.  

I used a large fire to heat it cherry red for 10 hours and built my clay box
inside a piece of heavy pipe to protect it from logs being thrown on the fire.
For carbon compounds I used: horn shavings, powdered charcoal, bone meal and
leather.  I haven't had a chance to play with it yet to see how well it worked.

The iron furnace was based on very early furnaces. It used a direct reduction
process...it did not "melt" the ore. See _Iron and Man_ for details.
The furnace was constructed of wattle and daub> We dug appx 300-500 lbs
of clay out of a creek and coated woven branches heavily. Fired it with
wood to dry the furnace, then charcoal when we were doing a run. Air
for the first run was supplied by two medium sized bellows.  Ore was
Taconite pellets.  More clay was applied to the outside of the furnace
as cracks developed.  We did two runs and then broke open the furnace to
get the blooms and to examine it. It looked just like the ones dug
up by the archeologists!  Size 3'high outside diameter top appx 16"
inside diameter top appx 10".

It was very hot to run but what a blast!!!!

I didn't know about the furnace project until I was on site.  I was 
talking to everyone I met about blister steel and lucked onto the group
doing the iron furnace. Talk with everyone!  I usually bring my forge
and projects as well as learning/teaching from anyone who is interested.

Using the net is a good way to find out if anyone is planning to do
something interesting.  Did you see the pole lathes that were set up
on the backside of eastrealm royal for people to play with?

The group I was with is planning to do a viking craft village at Pennsic,
next year I hope!  Send me e-mail next July and I will reply with all
I know about goings on.  

I plan to make a furnace at home now...

Wilelm the smith
Barony of the Middle Marches
Middle Kingdom

MKA  W.T.Powers
1409 S. 5th St.
Columbus, OH 43207
614-443-3200

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: To Enamel or Not to Enamel...
From: pears at latcs1.lat.oz.au (Arnold N Pears)
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1993 02:36:11 GMT
Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia

mwolfe at epas.utoronto.ca (Menya Wolfe) writes:
>Black paint is often mistakenly referred to as enamel, and a material
>called niello was commonly used on armour, but only as an inlay.
	^^^^^^

I am interested in this statement about niello work on armour.
I have seen lots of gilding, and blueing, but not niello.
So far as I was aware niellow work inlay was mostly used
on jewelery and silver tableware.
Could you help me with some refs on niello work on armour.
Part of my work at the moment is on decorative armour styles.

NOTE: For those interested niello is an alloy of silver copper and lead.
Benvenuto Cellini gives a recipe for it in his
"Treatise on Goldsmithing", which is most easily found in translation
from the Italian in the Dover publication,

"The Treatises of Benvenuto Cellini on Goldsmithing and Sculpture"
Trans. C.R. Ashbee
ISBN 0-486-21568-7
Published in 1967.

This book was still in print last year and is available from most good
libraries.

Recipe:
	1 oz silver
	2 oz copper
	3 oz lead

	Melt silver and copper in a crucible, when molten and well mixed
	add the lead. Remove any scum with your charcoal stiring rod.
	Pour into another container holding pure sulphur, stop up and
	shake to react the sulphur with your alloy. You should get
	black granules of niello.
	Now extract the grains and cast them into a block of niello
	by melting under gentle heat with a pinch of borax.

WARNING:
	This alloy uses lead so don't inhale fumes of it OK :-)

BTW Have you tried the fire enameling techniques described by
Cellini? I have yet to summon up the courage to expose my work in
a precious metal to direct fire.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Arnold Pears.  Computer Sci. Dept.		AARNET : pears at latcs1.lat.oz.au
La Trobe Uni., Bundoora Vic. 3083, Australia.	"Well here we all are then."
Office: +61 3 479-1144						-ME

From: DDF2 at cornell.edu (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: To Enamel or Not to Enamel...
Date: 4 Oct 1993 23:34:23 GMT
Organization: Cornell Law School

Arnold N Pears:
> NOTE: For those interested niello is an alloy of silver copper and lead.

As is clear from the recipe you quote later, this is wrong. The molten
alloy is poured into sulfur and the resulting mixture of metallic sulphides
(I think that is right, but do not swear to the chemistry) is what you use.
Consider what happens when you put lead, or an alloy made largely of lead,
on silver jewelry and heat it--not at all what you wanted.

David/Cariadoc 
DDF2 at Cornell.Edu

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: To Enamel or Not to Enamel...
From: pears at latcs1.lat.oz.au (Arnold N Pears)
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1993 04:23:38 GMT
Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia

In article <DDF2-041093193147 at cu-dialup-0210.cit.cornell.edu> DDF2 at cornell.edu (David Friedman) writes:
Previously I wrote...
>> NOTE: For those interested niello is an alloy of silver copper and lead.
>
>As is clear from the recipe you quote later, this is wrong. The molten
>alloy is poured into sulfur and the resulting mixture of metallic sulphides
>(I think that is right, but do not swear to the chemistry) is what you use.

Hmm, I agree that there is a sulphide based reaction there, but the metallic
sulphides created by the initial sulphur/alloy reaction are re-melted and
cast several times afterwards.
While there is a sulphur component I still maintain that if the
result can be remelted and cast it must be an alloy.
We now need to determine what reaction has occured, and whether
that reaction completely reduces one or more components of the 
alloy.

Can any chemists help here?

>Consider what happens when you put lead, or an allow made largely of lead,
>on silver jewelry and heat it--not at all what you wanted.

Niello is used for contrasting inlay material on engraved pieces.
So if I had a silver object with deep engraving,
and I filled the engraved lines with a lead based alloy
for contrast in the decoration why would that not be what I wanted?

Arenwald.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Arnold Pears.  Computer Sci. Dept.		AARNET : pears at latcs1.lat.oz.au
La Trobe Uni., Bundoora Vic. 3083, Australia.	"Well here we all are then."
Office: +61 3 479-1144						-ME

From: DDF2 at cornell.edu (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: To Enamel or Not to Enamel...
Date: 7 Oct 1993 02:26:53 GMT
Organization: Cornell Law School

> While there is a sulphur component I still maintain that if the
> result can be remelted and cast it must be an alloy.
(Arenwald)

That does not follow--lots of compounds can be melted. Is salt an alloy? Is
a mixture of sodium chloride and magnesium chloride an alloy?

> >Consider what happens when you put lead, or an allow made largely of lead,
> >on silver jewelry and heat it--not at all what you wanted.
(Me)
 
> Niello is used for contrasting inlay material on engraved pieces.
> So if I had a silver object with deep engraving,
> and I filled the engraved lines with a lead based alloy
> for contrast in the decoration why would that not be what I wanted?
(Arenwald)

The answer to my "what happens" is, as best I remember, that the lead eats
its way through the silver, making a mess out of the piece. I do not have
my equipment here to do the experiment, but I believe that at the sort of
temperatures used for melting niello, doing hard soldering, and the like
the lead, whose melting point is much lower, alloys with the silver in a
highly destructive fashion.

David/Cariadoc
DDF2 at Cornell.Edu

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: To Enamel or Not to Enamel...
From: pears at latcs1.lat.oz.au (Arnold N Pears)
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 07:48:25 GMT
Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia

DDF2 at cornell.edu (David Friedman) writes:
>> While there is a sulphur component I still maintain that if the
>> result can be remelted and cast it must be an alloy.
>(Arenwald)
>
>That does not follow--lots of compounds can be melted. Is salt an alloy? Is
>a mixture of sodium chloride and magnesium chloride an alloy?

Obviously not, but for that argument to be appropriate here, we must determine
that the metalic components of the substance have been completely reacted with
the sulphur in forming the niello.
However, I take your point, I wasn't thinking clearly...too many late nights
or something.

>> >Consider what happens when you put lead, or an allow made largely of lead,
>> >on silver jewelry and heat it--not at all what you wanted.
>(Me)
> 
>> Niello is used for contrasting inlay material on engraved pieces.
>> So if I had a silver object with deep engraving,
>> and I filled the engraved lines with a lead based alloy
>> for contrast in the decoration why would that not be what I wanted?
>(Arenwald)
>
>The answer to my "what happens" is, as best I remember, that the lead eats
>its way through the silver, making a mess out of the piece. I do not have
>my equipment here to do the experiment, but I believe that at the sort of
>temperatures used for melting niello, doing hard soldering, and the like
>the lead, whose melting point is much lower, alloys with the silver in a
>highly destructive fashion.

I defer to someone who has presumably tried this.
My experiments have in fact so far been limited to preparing the
niello itself. I still have to produce the silver article to inlay.
I'll let you know if it fails, though presumably the niello contains
little unreacted lead, and the effects will be as desired.

Thanks for clarifying my area of confusion with that statement.

Just a note, I did check my assertion about niello in the Encyclopaedia
Britannica, which paraphrased says that niello is a metallic alloy of
a combination of one or more of silver, copper and lead, with sulphur.
All my incorrect arguments notwithstanding I feel I am not unreasonable
in standing by my original assertion that niello is an alloy.

Arenwald.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Arnold Pears.  Computer Sci. Dept.		AARNET : pears at latcs1.lat.oz.au
La Trobe Uni., Bundoora Vic. 3083, Australia.	"Well here we all are then."
Office: +61 3 479-1144						-ME

From: jeffs at math.bu.EDU (Jeff Suzuki)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: alloy, etc.
Date: 7 Oct 1993 09:14:59 -0400
Organization: The Internet

Arenwald writes:
>Hmm, I agree that there is a sulphide based reaction there, but the
>metallic sulphides created by the initial sulphur/alloy reaction are
>re-melted and cast several times afterwards.  While there is a sulphur
>component I still maintain that if the result can be remelted and cast
>it must be an alloy.  
>
>Can any chemists help here?

Hmmm...I don't quite get the original discussion, but a sulfide metal
compound is not an alloy, it's tarnish....

It's an alloy if it's a mixture of metals (except for mercury) without
a reaction.  It's an amalgam if one of the metals is mercury.  Sulfur
is a non-metal; even a mixture of sulfur and a metal would not be (as
far as I know) called an alloy.  

Tio

From: mwolfe at epas.utoronto.ca (Menya Wolfe)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Niello
Date: 7 Oct 1993 11:46:09 -0400
Organization: EPAS Computing Facility, University of Toronto

I'm just catching up on this thread, and I'll try to answer the
questions asked earlier.

It was my impression that Niello was used on armour, but I do not
remember where I got that impression, and I cannot now find source
material to back that up.  Perhaps Cariadoc knows whether it was used in
the East at all?

The essential ingredients of niello are a metal, usually silver, and
sulphur, which are the only ingredients in one of the recipes in the
Mappae Clavicula. Other recipes in the same source contain silver,
copper and lead, and just copper and lead.  Clearly the other
metals are not necessary to produce the desired effect.

According to Tim McCreight's _The Complete Metalsmith_, niello is "a
metallic alloy of sulfur with silver, copper and lead....Though some
recipes seem complicated niello is really a simple mixture of three
metals and all the sulfur they can hold.  In general terms:

	Sulfur causes blackness
	Copper deepens blackness
	Silver raises the melting point
	Lead provides for fusion and 'spreadability'."

The ingredients are melted together and form
a lump of black material.  This is ground, then remelted at least
once.  Eventually it is left as a powder and melted into grooves on
metal to form contrasting patterns.  The melting point is lower than
enamel, and I believe it is somewhat lighter and tougher, although it
can still be chipped or cracked.

Rhiannon

From: RS_NUSSLEBR at CONRAD.APPSTATE.EDU (Kim Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Niello
Date: 11 Oct 1993 14:17:36 GMT

mwolfe at epas.utoronto.ca writes:
> I'm just catching up on this thread, and I'll try to answer the
> questions asked earlier.

I totally missed any reference to this thread before, but what the heck!

> It was my impression that Niello was used on armour, but I do not
> remember where I got that impression, and I cannot now find source
> material to back that up.  Perhaps Cariadoc knows whether it was used in
> the East at all?

Niello was also used on some jewelry/ornaments.  Specifically, I can document
its use on a belt buckle and some buttons, from the late thirteenth or early
fourteenth century, all of these peices currently to be found in the Hungarian
National Museum, if such still exists.  The peices were found at
Kiskunmajsa-Kigyospuszta, Bacs-Kiskun County.  (There are lots of funny accent
marks in that, which I can't pretend to duplicate or understand.)

> 
> The essential ingredients of niello are a metal, usually silver, and
> sulphur, which are the only ingredients in one of the recipes in the
> Mappae Clavicula. Other recipes in the same source contain silver,
> copper and lead, and just copper and lead.  Clearly the other
> metals are not necessary to produce the desired effect.
> 
> According to Tim McCreight's _The Complete Metalsmith_, niello is "a
> metallic alloy of sulfur with silver, copper and lead....Though some
> recipes seem complicated niello is really a simple mixture of three
> metals and all the sulfur they can hold.  In general terms:
> 
> 	Sulfur causes blackness
> 	Copper deepens blackness
> 	Silver raises the melting point
> 	Lead provides for fusion and 'spreadability'."

There are also several other "recipes" but they all follow this basic list. 
There is one that I know of which uses, I think, bismuth, to make a deep
blue-black niello.  I *have not* tried this.

> The ingredients are melted together and form
> a lump of black material.  This is ground, then remelted at least
> once.  Eventually it is left as a powder and melted into grooves on
> metal to form contrasting patterns.  The melting point is lower than
> enamel, and I believe it is somewhat lighter and tougher, although it
> can still be chipped or cracked.

After melting into the design, the excess material is to be filed or ground
away, leaving the material only in the grooves.

> Rhiannon

Neat!  I didn't realize that much of anyone else was interested in this!

Pagane      

Kim Williams
rs_nusslebr at alf.appstate.edu

From: ayotte at milo.NOdak.EDU (Robert Arthur Ayotte)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Antiquing Metals
Date: 4 Apr 1994 09:58:57 -0400
Organization: North Dakota State University ACM, Fargo ND

: Does anyone know how to antique iron or an iron alloy to give it the
: greenish cast that you can see in craft stores?  I need to find some advice
: or any references to antique a wrought iron candlestick.

: Derek
: st1xe at jetson.uh.edu

	You are looking to create a patina, this only forms naturaly on
copper, brass, bronze or silver (the copper content gives the green to it).
	Look for a book called "The Complete Metalsmith" by McCreight (sp??)
he mentions many of the antiquing methods used.  With the right moden
methods you should find a way to do it.  You will be using acids and copper
salts so be careful about where you work as some are fairly toxic.  I know
a lady that puts patinas on the jewelry she makes, wonderful stuff and
with a depth not often found.  She coats the piece 15 or more times, and
scrubs it off as many times, only leaving a little bit on each time.  Her
finish also lasts for ever and does not rub off like many commercial versions
I have seen.  She's working in copper and brass.

	For Iron, I might suggest browning it for a period finish, it's also
a rust prevention.  What browning does is create a light coat of iron oxide
which protects the metal below.  There have also been mentions of blackening
on this bridge in ref. Armor.  This might be another way to go.

Horace

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: Adanial at amber.indstate.edu (ccbudd at indsvax1.indstate.edu)
Subject: Re: antiquing metals
Organization: Indiana State University
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 16:08:47 GMT

jeffs at math.bu.EDU (Jeff Suzuki) writes:
>From: jeffs at math.bu.EDU (Jeff Suzuki)
>Subject: antiquing metals
>Date: 19 Apr 1994 13:32:24 -0400
>
>Derek asks:
>
> > Does anyone know how to antique iron or an iron alloy to give it the
> > greenish cast that you can see in craft stores?  I need to find some advice
> > or any references to antique a wrought iron candlestick.
>
>I remember seeing commercials, back when I watched more than an hour
>of television a week, that trumpeted the value of a certain type of
>paint.  They painted a shingle, and the announcer said, "This is what
>they looked like after a year of bad weather", and the fine print read
>"aging simulated".
>
>Now, I had to wonder...I can think of a few ways of aging something
>rapidly.  For example, you could expose it to a high-oxygen atmosphere
>at mild heat.  (This is maybe Michael Jackson's idea?)  Add some
>industrial pollutants to the air (sulfur dioxide, ozone, carbon
>monoxide) and you'll get all sorts of n*e*a*t aging effects...etc.
>
>Anyway, does anyone know what this "simulated aging" is?
>William the Alchymist

Hmmm...  I once heard of a great technique (Yes, I have tested it) for 
antiquing a belt knife.  Simply rub the blade with a cut onion, and let it 
set overnight.  Gives a great patina.

From: afn03234 at freenet2.freenet.ufl.edu (Ronald L. Charlotte)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Metal Crafts Question-????
Date: 5 Jan 1996 11:22:20 GMT

doug_brunner at hp-corvallis.om.hp.com (Doug Brunner) wrote:
>     I've seen several round pieces, such as mugs and such, that have a metal
> trim around the top. Or trim on the tip of a horn. What is this stuff and where
> can I get some?? Maybe some instructions and info? I make Drinking Horns,
> now. I make them with a wooden stand attached and a leather grip. I would
> like to expand my skills into a bit of metal work on them.

If you are referring to the flat stuff with the fancy scallops and/or 
embossing, it's called gallery wire or gallery bezel.  It's made for the 
jewelry trade, although you can frequently find a similar material at 
some craft/sewing supply stores.  Your best bet is to check jewelers 
suppliers, but they will usually only have it in fine silver and 14K 
gold.

Good hunting...
--
     al Thaalibi ---- An Crosaire, Trimaris
     Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
     afn03234 at afn.org

Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:55:04 -0600 (MDT)
From: Frederick C Yoder <fyoder at mesa5.mesa.colorado.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Metal and Mongolian Boozing!

	Wanted to pass along a couple of useful resources. 
	For metal workers there's a great series out called the Archaeology 
of York that discusses a series of digs in a small area of York from 
about 700CE to 1450CE.  The area was apparently a metal working site over 
most of its occupation.  The books I saw discuss ferrous and nonferrous, 
copper, lead, bronze, gold and silver, metal refining, working and 
finishing in more detail than you really wanted.  

<snip>

Fred Yoder
fyoder at mesa5.mesa.colorado.edu
Grand Junction, CO

Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 09:37:58 +1200
From: "Pete Grooby" <Peter.Grooby at trimble.co.nz>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: blades

Can't help to much with advice about carving the blade sorry...

> Then I'll be doing metal handguard for the dagger, which I have bar of
> brass waiting. Can brass (88% copper, 12% tin) be forged like steel, or
> should it be worked rather with method of removing excess metal?

You can 'forge' brass. But you must remember to either work it red 
hot or dead cold. To work it cold you have to first anneal it, in 
much the same way as steel.

For hot work, make sure you stop hitting it as soon as it has gone 
from red, to a sort of browny colour. Apparently hot working it not 
as strong, but I have never had any problems.

If you do try to work the metal when it has cooled down too much, it 
will split or break every time.

However depending on the size and shape of your starting piece of 
metal and desired hilt, you might have more luck with stock removal. 
That can help to make an even, strong hilt.

Hope that helps

YIS
Vitale
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Grooby            pgrooby at trimble.co.nz             -=0 0=-/   
Trimble Navigation  http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3069  |_{|}/ /    
Christchurch, NZ.                                           _|  \     

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:32:55
From: Edwin Hewitt <brogoose at pe.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: basic metalurgy

I originally posted the following message in reply to heat treating
mail rings and other steel objects on the armory list.  I thought a few
folks here might be interested - Edwin.

				***********

In a nutshell, the difference between iron and steel is the introduction
of carbon into the iron.  Both iron and steel have an internal molecular
lattice or crystal structure.  Iron, however, has a single molecular
structure, and heating and cooling will not particularly affect the end
product.  

Hardenable carbon steel has several types of crystal structure, based
on the location of the carbon atoms in relation to the iron atoms in the
crystal.  A hardenable steel has enough carbon in the matrix that it will
affect the crystal structure when heated and cooled.  The higher the carbon
content, the harder (and more brittle) the steel.  You need at least 
.2% carbon for steel to be hardenable.

With a hardenable carbon steel, when you heat it above a dark cherry red,
the carbon will be forced into the "body" of the crystal matrix, and
if it is quenched at that point, it will "freeze" into that structure.
This will be as hard as that steel can get.  Unfortunately, this will
also be as brittle as it can get.

When you introduce heat back into the steel, you allow the carbon atoms
to migrate to the surface of the crystal structure.  This loostens the 
atomic structure, making the steel softer and less brittle.  For some
reason I don't understand completely, it has less to do with the length 
of time the heat is applied, but rather the temperature which regulates 
this change.  

Once the metal is heated and the carbon has done its thing, you quench
the steel.  This is more complicated than it sounds because the quenching
process depends on the type of steel and type of hardness you want.  
Water quenches quickly and the metal will be frozen at its very hardest.
Unfortunately, this can add stresses or even crack some high carbon 
steels.  For these, an oil quench should be used.  It draws the heat out
more slowly, and actually allows the steel time to temper itself somewhat
during the quench.

The Japanese swordmakers use a single hardening/tempering process and 
use a very ritualized technique to ensure results.  Clays are applied to 
regulate the rate of heat removal during quenching, thereby varying the
hardness of parts of the blade.  The temperature of the tempering medium
(which is almost always pure water) is a closely guarded secret, because
it too regulates the speed of heat removal - and the characteristics of
the blade.

What I describe now is step two and three of the tempering process I use.

There is sometimes, but not always a second step in the hardening and 
quenching process called "stress-relieving" or annealing.  High carbon 
steels are more sensitive to burning so the lowest heat should be used 
when forming them.  To complicate matters, if you work these steels 
too cold, or heat and reheat them too often, you introduce considerable 
stress.  These stresses must be "relieved" prior to the final tempering,
or the piece may have a tendency to crack or break .

To stress relieve, heat the metal past cherry, and then allow it to cool 
down very slowly (either in sand, charcoal, vermiculite or a temperature
controlled oven).  This makes the metal as soft as it can be while cold.  
It removes all the irregularities and stresses introduced by forging and
hammering.  It is also a good time to file and grind the piece to its 
final shape.

To temper the steel, heat the metal as I described, and then quench hard.
Polish the surface of the steel to bright bare metal.  Then add heat very
slowly to watch the slow oxidation of the surface metal.  This oxidation
colors the metal in different colors depending upon the the temperature
the metal has been heated to, and gives you an indication fo the amount
of temper. If you can't picture the colors, think of the rainbow of colors 
on the exhaust tubes of a motorcycle.  

When bare, polished steel is heated the colors will be:

Pale yellow,	418 deg. F.
Straw,		446 deg. F.
Brown,		491 deg. F
Purple,		536 deg. F.
Pale blue,	572 deg. F.
Dark blue, 	599 deg. F.

I most commonly use Straw and blue as my indicators.  Straw is the 
deep yellow for the edges of knife blades and chisels.  Any darker color
tells me that too much heat has been applied and the steel has become 
too soft.  

For a "spring temper" you temper to blue.  Pale blue is stiffer than
dark blue.  For european style sword or a MAIL ring, I would recommend
this color.  For a single edged blade, I will heat the back and let the
heat "leach" into the edge.  When the edge is the right color, I quench
the blade in water so it sets quickly.  Using this technique you can
do a "differential temper" where the back is soft (blue) and the edge
is harder (straw).

The temper is important because if you have too hard a temper, then the
steel will tend to break and crack.  If it is too soft, then it will 
bend or not hold an edge.  It is also important during quenching that
you stir or swirl your piece in the qenching media so that bubbles will
not cause an uneven cooling to the steel, and thereby introduce stresses.
These stresses often exhibit themselves as warpage.

As a final note, some modern steels rely on other more exotic materials
for their hardening characteristics.  Files are often used to make knife
blades, but they are not always a simple carbon steel, and therefore they
do not always behave the same.  Some files are made of an "air-quenching"
steel, and will crack if you even try to quench them in water.  

If you want to heat treat an entire suit of mail (which is what started)
the discussion) I would say either heat treat the rings first (if you are
using the butting method) or use annealed wire if you are riviting your
suit, and then heat treat the entire suit in temperature controlled oven.
Frankly, I doubt this was a concern in period.

Lastly, the process of case hardening is the introduction of carbon to 
the surface of an otherwise low carbon steel.  This is done by heating
the low carbon steel to bright red and packing it in a carbon rich
environment such as charcoal and leaving it there for several hours.
This can be done a few times if necessary.  The product will have a
hardenable surface and can be heat treated as described above.

Trade knives given to the American Indians 100 or more years ago were
often case hardened.  This led to the tradition of only sharpening knives
on one edge.  This way you always had a hard edge, and not the softer core.

Eadwynne of Runedun, Dreiburgen, Caid
Edwin
Full-time Idealist, Part-time Realist.

From: Todd Rich <torin at primenet.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Metalworking in the SCA (a good resource)
Date: 11 May 1998 10:23:01 -0700

Morgan E. Smith <mesmith at calcna.ab.ca> wrote:
:   There have been a lot of posts on metals and/or alloys thereof lately.
: My lord (who is a mundane goldsmith) was on his way out the door and
: mentioned a book that, while expensive, is available at many libraries,
: and may be of use.
:   It's by someone named "Oomtrak" or similar to that (he couldn't exactly

Jewelry: Concepts and Technology by Oppi Untracht.

: remember) and in Canada the price runs about $200, but Conmor says it has

I think (could be wrong) that it runs about $118 US from Borders.

: tons of info on alloy percentages and on methods of jewellery
: construction, as well as covering how-tos on raising and sinking sheet
: metals for bowls, goblets, etc. He doesn't recommend actually buying it
: unless you are totally serious, and even then, if you live in a large
: urban centre with a good post-secondary art program, it should be
: available.
:   While the author wasn't primarily concerned with "authenticity" as such,
: much of what it covers does refer to older (ie: medieval) methods and
: uses.
: Morgan the Unknown

It's a good book, but it is spendy.
                                Torin

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 20:45:07 EST
From: freyja1 at juno.com (Timothy a Whitcomb)
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Copper

>So, I'm not worried about copper being safe, I just need a book on how
>to pound it, make round shapes, fitting pieces together, that sort of
>thing.
SNIPPED!
>- Midair, who appreciates all the comments he's gotten.

If i might suggest:
"Form Emphasis for Metalsmiths" by Heikki Seppa
isbn  0-87338-212-9

This is not period, but for a small book it is jammed with info on how to
design, form and construct metal objects. A very useful, whether you work
with copper or any other non-ferrous metals.

Hroar

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 12:33:18 -0600 (CST)
From: <timbeck at ix.netcom.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Copper

> So, I'm not worried about copper being safe, I just need a book on how
> to pound it, make round shapes, fitting pieces together, that sort of
> thing.

  A good place to start would be Oppi Untracht's *Metal Tecniques for the
Craftsman*  He covers all sorts of tecniques from arround the world and
his book is widely available.

Timothy

Royar Metalworks
345 Garretson ave
Rodeo, CA 94572

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 15:46:16 -0500
From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Books on Copperworking

Since someone asked for a list of books on copperworking I picked a
few of the more useful ones out of my library:

Seppa, Heikki, _Form Emphasis for Metalsmiths_, Kent State University
   Press, 1978, ISBN 0-87338-212-9, LofCongress 78-1091. This is
   probably the _most_ comprehensive book in print on shaping of
   sheet metal into virtually any form by raising or sinking.

Kronquist, Emil F., _Metalcraft and Jewelry_, Manual Arts Press, 1926.
   Includes pierced work, jewelry, chasing and repousse work, wire
   drawing and wire work, stones and metals, soldering, hammered work,
   raised work and metal coloring by oxidation. 191 pp.

Kronquist, Emil F., _Metalwork for Craftsmen, A Step by Step Guide
   With 55 Projects_, (Formerly titled Art Metalwork), Dover, 1972,
   202 pp.0-486-22789-8. Very comprehensive on forming all sorts of
   functional objects out of sheet metals. Including soldering,
   chasing, raising, and sinking.

Lewis, Marcia, _Chasing - Ancient Metalworking Technique with Modern
   Applications_, LarMar Productions, P.O. Box 15298, Long Beach, CA
   90815, Phone / fax (310)498-0218. ISBN 09644262-0-X, 1994, 72 pp.
   A rather brief overview of chasing with some other topics thrown
   in to make a bigger book. Other topics would include a bit of die
   and hydraulic forming, engraving, holloware. Should have been more
   specific to title.

Hasluck, Paul N., Metalworking - A Book of Tools Materials, and
   Processes for the Handyman, originally published by David McKay,
   Philadelphis, 1907, currently available as a reprint from Lindsay
   Publications Inc., Bradley IL 60915, ISBN 1-55918-126-5, 1994, 760pp.
   If you've ever seen Hasluck's Woodcarving with it's Medieval context
   and liked it then this is the metalworking book for you. It covers
   almost all types of metalwork historical up to the period of 1907.
   2,206 illustrations. Includes some early period jewelry work too.

Tubby, Pamela, _Working with Metals_, Thomas Y. Crowell, Publishers,
   10 East 53rd St., N.Y., N.Y. 10022. ISBN 0-690-01826-6 (PB), -9
   (HC), 1979, 158 pp. As Kronquist, but more basic.

Sjoberg, Jan and Ove, _Working with Copper, Silver and Enamel_, Van
   Nostrand Rheinhold Company, N.Y., N.Y. 10001. ISBNs 0-442-30034-4
   (HC), 0-442-30035-2 (PB), LofCongress 73-16713, 1974, 96 pp.
   Fairly basic, aimed more toward jewelry.

Glass, F. P., _Metal Craft_, Gregg Series of Reprints on Crafts and
   Hobbies, Originally by University of London Press, Ltd., London,
   1928. Republished 1971 by Newton K. Gregg, Kentfield, CA.
   ISBN 0-912318-05-8, LofCongress 75-163529, 70 pp.. Particularly
   nice for escutcheons, hinges, lanterns, tooling, vessels.

Kramer, Karl Robert and Nora, _Coppercraft and Silver Made at Home_,
   Dover ISBN 0-486-22790-1, LofCongress 70-178088, 1957, 1972, 175 pp.
   Includes forming, piercing, platemaking, etching. Mostly larger
   items.

Magnus Malleus, OL, Windmasters' Hill, Atlantia, Great Dark Horde.

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 19:31:48 -0800
From: Twcs <no1home at encompass.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Working with copper - help needed

Midair  wrote:
> I desire to make copper jugs for holding water (I can be more specific
> if you wish).  Does anyone know of any good books on working with
> copper to form such objects? I'll be attaching copper tubes inside the
> jugs, so the work could get a bit intricate.

Since I've not seen anyone mention this source yet:
try Metalwork & Enamelling, by Herbert Maryon.  It's a Dover book,
isbn 0-486-22702-2.  Chapter 11 is on raising, including how to make
soft-metal pitchers and jugs from one piece of sheet metal.  I've been
playing with making several of the shapes described in this book lately,
and the directions for the most part work well and are understandable.

Twcs 

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 23:21:15 -0800
From: Twcs <no1home at encompass.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Copper/bronze-more thoughts !

Mel wrote:
> Maybe bronze is less reactive that pure copper, once the alloy has formed,
> another thought bronze was often cast, certainly cast iron is more porous
> that sheet iron and is soon impregnated with oil (infact you oil & cook it
> before use), maybe this build up of oils and grease formed a non reactive
> layer between the elements of the bronze and the food, just thinking out
> loud, but what does anyone else think ?

1.  Bloom iron is not porous.  I base this statement on examining the bloom
that Master Huygen (sp?) et al. made at Pennsic using medieval methods.
I made a polished surface on a piece of the bloom and found trellis
structure
but no visible porosity.

2.  Bronze, senso stricto, is easier to cast than than brass.  Brass, senso
stricto, is easier to shape and engrave than bronze.  These are the reasons
why medieval memorial brasses were engraved but bronze buckles were cast.

3. Bronze and brass are more reactive than straight copper because zinc and
tin are both higher on the electromotive series.  As you may recall from
chemistry class, the electromotive series is sorted by a metal's reactivity with
water and acids.  Each metal will displace in solution all  metals which are
lower in the series, and will  in turn be replaced in solution by those metals
which are higher in the series.  Any copper in a solution will be replaced
by zinc and tin.  Forcing copper out of a solution must then result in the
precipitation of copper, usually as a compound.  The solution will now
dissolve more copper in order to restore the equilibrium between itself and
the copper alloy.  Since Zn and Sn are already in solution, the Cu will again
be forced to precipitate, thus starting the cycle all over again until a new
equilibrium is established.

4. Copper is essentially insoluble in water.  It is soluable in nitric and hot
sulfuric acid.  It is slowly soluable in hydrochloric and dilute sulfuric acid.
It is extremely soluable in solutions containing ammonia and/or chlorides.
It is so soluable in fatty acids that one early test for the presence of copper
capitalized on this property (if the butter turned green, then there was copper
present).  It is soluable in alcohol and alcoholic beverages.

5. Elemental copper is essentially non-toxic.  Soluable copper salts are toxic,
especially those which form in fatty acids like copper oleate.  The fatty acid
category includes most animal and vegetable fats.  This explains why eggs
in a copper bowl will remove a surface layer of copper: the amino acids will
dissolve copper from the bowl's surface to form copper aminoacetates in
solution in the egg.

Quick refs:
1) http://atsdr1.atsdr.cdc.gov:8080/toxfaq.html
2) CRC Chem and Physics Handbook, 75th Ed.
3) Lewis, R., ed., _Hawley's Condensed Chemical Dictionary_, 12th Ed.
4) Blythe and Blythe, _Poisons: Their Effects and Detection_, 4th Ed.

ttfn, Twcs

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:54:32 EST
From: <DianaFiona at aol.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Brass help !

MelanieWilson at compuserve.com writes:
<< I've hit a problem with some brass rod, I'm trying to flatten parts of it
 but it keeps splitting, is the due to the type of Brass or is it inevitably
 with work hardening ? There seem to be plenty of things in brass rod with
 flat bits any tips on how to do this ?

 Mel
  >>
        You are correct--it is work hardening. Yes, different alloys will
respond a
bit differently to various processes, but most metals (Pewter is one
exception.) will work harden eventually--and usually long before you have
finished what you want to do to them.......... ;-) If you don't have access
to
a heat source to anneal your wire, you might search out wire that can be
purchased dead soft to begin with, rather than the half-hard wire that is
more
common. That would give you more working time, which might be enough for a
simple project. Try Rio Grande  (http://www.riogrande.com/>, I think I saw brass wire in their last catalog.

                        Ldy Diana

Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 08:57:32 +1300
From: Peter Grooby <Peter.Grooby at trimble.co.nz>
To: "'sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu'" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: RE: Brass help !

On Friday, December 11, 1998 3:33 AM, Mike C. Baker [SMTP:kihe at ticnet.com]
wrote:
> Not from personal experience, however from instruction
> I believe that the key with brass, bronze, and copper,
> is to heat, work, and anneal.

Just to summarize.

You have two options when beating brass.
Firstly you can beat it while it is glowing red. This is my usual method. I
use a LPG torch with a large nozzle on it.
You have to make sure you stop hitting it when it has cooled down too much
(experience here). If you don't it will snap.

The second option is to anneal the metal and then beat it cold, then repeat
as needed. I have had people swear by this method as it supposedly is kinder
on the metal, however I do fine with the first method and it is quicker.
To anneal brass you can either heat it red hot and quench it or just let it
cool slowly. Both work.

Vitale
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Grooby            pgrooby at trimble.co.nz             -=0 0=-/
Trimble Navigation  http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3069  |_{|}/ /
Christchurch, NZ.                                           _|  \

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 20:47:02 -0400
From: dwilson at nbnet.nb.ca (dwilson)
To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Re: Brass help !

>I've hit a problem with some brass rod, I'm trying to flatten parts of it
>but it keeps splitting, is the due to the type of Brass or is it inevitably
>with work hardening ? There seem to be plenty of things in brass rod with
>flat bits any tips on how to do this ?

>Mel

I use recycled brasses and bronzes.  It sounds like you may be using
welding rod bronze.  Hard to forge.   I use a file when i need a flat bit .
Then i hit (Not to hard) the filed surface with a hammer to smooth it out.
Gives a hammered (Forged) look.  with out trying to move to much metal
around with a hammer.
Sheepstealer
30 K Example of hair pin point at
HTTP://www.maikon.net/wendysweb/biz/pin.jpg

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:29:44 +1300
From: Peter Grooby <Peter.Grooby at trimble.co.nz>
To: "'sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu'" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: RE: Brass help

On Friday, December 11, 1998 8:47 PM, Melanie Wilson
[SMTP:MelanieWilson at compuserve.com] wrote:
> >I use recycled brasses and bronzes.  It sounds like you may be using
> >welding rod bronze.  Hard to forge.
>
> I think this might be the answer. I have tried heating and hitting, heating
> cooling and hitting both resulted in splitting. Is there a grade I CAN use?

Was it glowing red when you hit it? If so I am very surprised it still
split. Often as soon as you touch it to he anvil alot of heat can get sucked
out. Sometime I hold the metal a few millimeters above the surface and hit
it. this keeps the heat longer.
Also I'll sit with my gas torch between my legs my brass held by pliars in
one hand and hammer in the other. This means I can go straight from heat to
hitting. (Although it gets messy on the few occasions I drop red hot metal
in my lap. My legs fly open, the torch falls to the ground. things get
interesting!)

Vitale

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 17:06:02 -0500
From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Cooper work book Tit for Tat

Melanie Wilson wrote:
> Saw this listed might be of help to whoever it was who was asking
> about copper (sorry deleted the message)

> Rose,Augustus F.; COPPER WORK.... Worcester, MA, 1909, 3rd edit.,

> Mel

Fuller, John - Art of Coppersmithing: A Practical Treatise on Working
Sheet Copper into All Forms, 327 pp., Ill. ND
"Written in 1893 by one of the industry's leading authorities, "Art of
Coppersmithing: has come to be recognized as the classic work in its
field. All aspects of this ancient craft are covered, from the making
of household items and ornaments to copper piping, three and four way
expansion joints and double bends. The text is supplemented by 474
illustrations and is completely indexed."   # 2-268   $25.OO from:

Linden publishing, 336 W. Bedford, #107, Fresno, California 93711-6079.
$3.90 for the first title shipping.     http://www.lindenpub.com

Current catalog, received this week. These folks carry all sorts of
woodworking, metalworking, carving, coachbuilding, blacksmithing, and
metalworking books.

Magnus

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:19:29 -0500
From: "Gray, Heather" <Heather at Quodata.Com>
To: "'sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu'" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: RE: Period Etching? - longish reply

This is from a book on printing techniques, but it is about etching, so
perhaps it will be of some use (The Renaissance Print):

"A number of recipe books survive with prescriptions for acids suited to
biting iron plates, mordants which no doubt had already been in use in
ironsmiths' shops from at least the beginning of the fifteenth century
and probably much earlier.  Vinegar was the basic ingredient in most of
them. Mordants were made in two consistencies, either liquid or paste,
and were then applied by soaking or by rubbing on accordingly. The
strength and corrosive property of the acids would certainly have varied
from one preparation to the next, and could be enhanced by warming the
paste or bath curing the biting process.  These acids appear to have
been quite efficient. Boltz's manual gives a recipe for Etzwasser
suitable for iron and steel which he claims will bite a plate in only a
half to a full day.  Thus is is possible to assume that with the aid of
a strong mordant an etched plate could be completed within a day or
two...(goes on to copper etching for printing)"

There's a couple of footnotes related to the above quote, about the
manuals mentioned:
(My apologies for the German if you don't know German -- but these were
the sources given and perhaps there are English versions available or
based on these works.  I used a colon in the words that have an umlaut ,
directly after the letter that should have it.  "buch" means "book", and
"von" means "from", if that helps.)

E. Harzen, "Ueber die Erfining der Aetzkunst," Archive fu:r die
zeichnenden Ku:nste (R. Naumann's Archiv) 5 (1859), pp. 119-36. =20
Herman Warner Williams, Jr., "The Beginnings of Etching," in the journal
Technical Studies 3 (1934/35), ppl 16-18, cites two English manuscripts
from the early fifteenth century describing the process. Apparently the
first printed text including a recipe for etching occurs in a
Netherlandish tract of 1513: T Bouck va Wondre ("The Book of Wonder"),
reprinted with commentary by HGT Frencken (Roermond, 1934).   A somewhat
later treatise on iron (Also apparently for armorers) has been published
by William M. Ivins, Jr., "An early Book about Etching," _Bulletin of
the Metropolitan Museum of Art 12_ (1917), pp. 174-176.  This concerns a
booklet printed in Augsburg in 1531. For work in Italy, see Biringuccio,
_Pirotechnia_, p. 372, tranmitting recipes which he proabbly copied from
German treatises. The most thorough discussion of the technique aapears
in Wegner, "Eisenradierung," cols. 1140-52; and Paul Post and Alexander
von Reitzenstein, "Eisena:tzung," in _Reallexicon zur deutschen
Kunstgeschichte_ (Stuttgart, 1958), vol IV, cols 1075-1103.  See also
the recent review of the literature in Kristin von Held, "Anfa:nge und
Entwicklung der Eisenradierung von 1500-1540" (Magisterarbeit:
Ludwig-Maximilians-Universita:t, Munich, 1988).  On the general subject
of metals, see Cyril Stanley Smith, _A History of Metallography_
(Chicago, 1960), pp. 10-13.

The last is Boltz's manual,  _Illuminierbuch_,  pp. 119-20.  Full bib on
him is:
        Boltz [von Ruffach], Valentin.  _Illuminierbuch: Wie man allerlei
Farben bereiten, mischen und auftragen soll_... Basel: Jakob Ku:ndig,
1549. Reprinted and edited by CJ Benziner. Munich, 1913.

Elwynne

Subject: BG - resource: basic metalforming
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 09:19:44 MST
From: "j'lynn yeates" <jyeates at realtime.net>
To: the-armory at Ansteorra.ORG, sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu,
     bryn-gwlad at Ansteorra.ORG

For an excellent resource on basic metalforming - tools, techniques, metal
information, I would suggest the following:

Silversmithing
William Seitz, Rupert Finegold (contributor)
Chilton Book Company
ISBN: 0801972329

list: $39.95, $27.97  at  amazon.com

'wolf

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:49:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Ioan verch David <lostboy_ioan at yahoo.com>
To: northshield <northshield at minstrel.com>, sca arts <SCA-ARTS at UKANS.EDU>
Subject: interesting leather documentation

I found a really nice example of stamped/tooled leather that many
leather-working types may not know of.  Its a cylindrical case for the
"Verre des huit pretres" (an Islamic glass mounted on a French
silver-gilt base).  If I can get my hands on a scanner, I will try to
put in on the web, but here's the citation.

Secular Goldsmiths' Work in Medieval France: A History R.W. Lightbrown, F.S.A.
published by The Society of Antiquaries, dist. by Thames and Hudson Ltd,
1978  ISBN 0 500 99027 1

The leather case is on Plate XLVI, Leather case, French, Late 13th c.

I'm not on the leather mailing list so feel free to pass this along.
Also, I am curious as to whether anyone who has a chance to check this
out thinks that the leather is incised as part of the tooling.  Its hard
to tell from the photo.  Also, if its cited anywhere else, I would
greatly appreciate info on where.  It looks like it is currently owned
by the V&A, although its listed as "formerly in the Musee de Douai".

Ioan verch David

[Submitted to the Florilegium by "Alderton, Philippa" <phlip at morganco.net>]
From: Paboobs at aol.com <Paboobs at aol.com>
To: theforge at qth.net <theforge at qth.net>
Date: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 11:42 PM
Subject: Re: [TheForge] making a cold chisel

I have been waiting for someone to ask these questions so I may add my
practical interpretation of heat treating.  I worked in a forge shop in the
late 60's and retired as a teacher of manufacturing technology after 30 years
last May.  I am not an engineer, but consider myself to be a practical
craftsman.

Carbon steel with a carbon content of above 0.3% will respond to heat
treating if it is heated above the upper critical temperature and quenched
faster than the critical cooling rate.  The upper critical temperature is the
temperature is the minimum required to produce a phase change to austenite
or a face-centered-cubic (fcc) microstructure.

With plain carbon steel, steel which does not have any appreciable alloying
elements added, the steel will loose magnetic properties as it reaches the
Currie temperature or the upper critical temperature.  At this point the
carbon will go into solution with iron.  This is often referred to as putting
the carbon in solution.  The austenite phase or the fcc microstructure can
hold approximately 2.0% carbon in solution.

As steel is heated to the upper critical temperature or the point at which
carbon goes into solution with iron a fine grain structure is formed.  As
steel is heated to a higher temperature or is held at the upper critical
temperature for a long period of time, grain size will continue to increase.

Overheating steel during forging will increase grain size and produce a
weaker forging than desired.  Underheating or forging when the steel changes
from red to black, as in the forging of a chisel, will create stresses which
often produce the thumb nail crack as can be seen down from the cutting edge
of the chisel.  This thumb nail crack is easily visable when heating the
chisel to the quenching temperature after grinding.

A steel with 0.4% carbon, like AISI1040 steel, will make a decent chisel and cut mild steel.  Maximum hardness is possible with a steel containing around 0.86% carbon and is referred to as the eutectoid composition.  The eutectoid composition of carbon steel is that percentage of carbon which requires the lowest upper critical temperature to produce the phase change to austenite (fcc) when heated.

Hardness increases as carbon content increases up to around 0.86% carbon where a maximum hardness on the  Rockwell C-Scale of around 68 is reached if the steel is quenched faster than the critical cooling rate after being heated to the austenite temperature.  Additional carbon will not increase hardness but will increase wear resistance by forming additional carbides.

On plain carbon steel, the higher the carbon content the more star bursts
will be present with a spark test on a grinding wheel.

A water hardening steel can be quenched and tempered in a single operation. Heat to the austenitizing temperature, the point where it loses its magnetism, and quench in water for a few seconds and remove from the water and polish with emory cloth to obtain a bright surface while the steel is black but hot.  Observe the color as the surface changes color from the remaining heat in the chisel.  The temper colors will run to the cutting ed ge and when the correct color is obtained, plunge the chisel into the water quench and cool to room temperature. The temper colors are transient oxide films indicating the temper of the steel.  A good temper for a chisel is a bronze color.  When the bronze color reaches the cutting edge of the chisel, the chisel should be cooled rapidly by plunging back into the water to avoid a higher tempering temperature and the temper colors continuing to run.

Oil hardening tool steel requires a two step process.  First heat the steel to the austenite temperature and quench in oil faster than the critical cooling rate to produce as much untempered martensite as possible.  Swirl the chisel in a circular motion to break down the insulating layer of gas formed and prevent flame-up from occuring.  The critical cooling rate is the rate of rapid cooling that will produce the maximum amount of martensite without picking up soft pearlite from too slow a cooling rate.  After cooling to room temperature, (leave a little heat in the steel to avoid excessive stress), polish the chisel with emory cloth to obtain a bright finish.  Reheat the chisel with a torch gradually beginning about 1 inch back from the cutting edge.  When the temper color progresses from light straw to dark straw to bronze, plunge the chisel in a container of cold water to stop the tempering process.  For a steel to respond to heat treatment two factors must be present.  One is the steel must be capable of undergoing a phase change and the other is there must be sufficient carbon to produce martensite.  Martensite is a supersaturated solid solution of carbon trapped in a body-centered-tetragonal form of iron.  If steel is allowed to cool slowly, the microconstituents formed are depending on the carbon content of the steel a combination of ferrite, pearlite, and cementite and will not produce hardness.  Hardness in steel is produced when steel with carbon in excess of 0.3% carbon is cooled fast enough to cause carbon in the fcc crystal lattice structure of iron to try to transform to the lower temperature microconstituent of bcc iron.  Since the bcc form of iron can hold only 0.035% carbon, the additional amount of carbon beyond 0.3% causes the body-centered-cubic iron to be distorted to a highly stressed body-centered-tetragonal form of iron (untempered martensite) as the steel is cooled faster than the crital cooling rate.  When the carbon content is increased from 0.3 % to 0.86% the amount of stress is increased and the corresponding hardness increases.

The higher the tempering temperature the more hardness is given up to provide
toughness.  Hardness must be sold to buy toughness.

The phase change temperature of alloy steels does not always respond to a
loss of magnetism and are difficult to predict.

Phil Baldwin, bladesmith, stated the forged O1 tool steel or AISI1095
maintains a superior cutting edge when compared to high alloy tool steels
because the high alloy steels are suceptable to micro-flaking on the
cutting edge.

Glen Davis

Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:41:22 -0800 (PST)
To: EKMetalsmiths at yahoogroups.com
From: Hillary Greenslade <hillaryrg at yahoo.com>
Subject: Dangerous techniques (Mercury Gilding)

>   From: Michael L Wilson <wilsonm at cs.rpi.edu>
> I was looking at the local SCA rules for certain classes of A&S entries,
> and one of the things they mentioned was that they were automatically
> disqualifying entries that used mercury gilding because it's horrifically
> dangerous.  (It's perfectly acceptable to substitute techniques in the
> case of dangerous procedures.)
>
> I've no intention of trying this, because I know enough about mercury to
> know I never want to deal with it outside of a thermometer.  But now I'm
> curious: what the devil is this technique???  How dangerous is it?  Is it
> even possible to do it safely?'
> -Mike Wilson

I have found most SCA rules are created as a result of some SCA'ers actions,
so most likely some apprentice wanted or did try to create this amalgum without
the use of proper studio safety....so likely the rule was created avoid same issues with others.   Though, I agree that it's important to know how the  
process was done, so you can document such, and then state the reasons for not  
duplicating the historic process - such as shop safety (then go do electroplating).

I think Oppi's book on 'Jewelry Concepts and Technology', ISBN: 0709196164
will discuss the technique, as he covers many historic processes, oft still used in third world countries... don't have the book handy, so can't confirm if  
it's in there.

Hillary - Ansteorra

Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 13:43:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Avery Austringer <avery1415 at sbcglobal.net>
To: EKMetalsmiths at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Digest Number 497

>> I was looking at the local SCA rules for certain classes of A&S entries,
>> and one of the things they mentioned was that they were automatically
>> disqualifying entries that used mercury gilding because it's horrifically
>> dangerous.  (It's perfectly acceptable to substitute techniques in the
>> case of dangerous procedures)
>>
>> I've no intention of trying this, because I know enough about mercury to
>> know I never want to deal with it outside of a thermometer.  But now I'm
>> curious: what the devil is this technique???  How dangerous is it?  Is it
>> even possible to d it safely?'
>> -Mike Wilson
>
> I have found most SCA rules are created as a result of some SCA'ers actions,
> so most likely some apprentice wanted or did try to create this amalgam
> without the use of proper studio safety....

I know the back-story on this one and, to the best of
my knowledge, no it wasn’t the result of someone doing
it to everyone's shock and their detriment.  I think,
deep down, the people writing the criterion wanted to
try it, knew it was a bad idea, and wanted to prevent
someone with less self preservation instinct from
going ahead.

To be honest, in that I can screw up badly enough in a
well equipped metal shop that they’ll have to resort
to dental records to ID the body*, it’s not any more
dangerous than a lot of other techniques that could
leave you dead or dying and would replace that
particular rule with a disclaimer that said something
like, “Hey Bonehead – It’s your eyes / skin / face /
liver / lungs / kidneys / fingers / whatever!  You may
want to use them later!” but that’s just how I am.

The technique involves mixing gold and mercury to form
an amalgam, painting that onto the object which one
wishes to gild, and then baking it to drive off the
mercury and leave the gold behind.  This gives you the
double whammy of the mercury vapor that would just
happen to come off during the amalgamation process,
plus the vapor that came off during the curing
process.

A safe way to cure your piece would be to create an
airtight chamber that could handle a vacuum, run the
line to the vacuum pump through a cold trap (think a
piece of metal or glass tubing in a bucket of liquid
nitrogen) in which the mercury would condense and then
to a vacuum pump.  Fill the trap with nitrogen, heat
the chamber (you wouldn’t have to go nearly as hot as
they did in period, thanks to the vacuum), and switch
on the pump.  Many chemical techniques involve
something called a Shlenk line that works pretty much
just like this.  (And vacuum pump oil is often
disposed of as hazardous waste for this reason.)

Avery

*I’m thinking bad oxygen/acetylene tank hygiene, or
maybe dropping a large crucible of bronze on a
concrete floor.  Use your imagination and think about
what you are doing before you do it.

<the end>