weddings-msg - 1/10/08 Period and SCA weddings. NOTE: See also the files: weddings-e-art, p-weddings-bib, wed-FAQ, wed-attire-FAQ, beadwork-msg, silk-msg, p-bibles-msg, religion-msg, herbs-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: CONS.ELF at AIDA.CSD.UU.SE ("]ke Eldberg") Date: 11 Apr 90 05:21:36 GMT Organization: Society for Creative Anachronism Greetings from William de Corbie! A gentle whose name I have forgotten asked on the net for information about medieval wedding ceremonies. I am researching that subject, hoping that it might result in an article for T.I. sometime in the future. Here are a few items from the material I have gathered. Pagan and Medieval wedding rituals - a brief outline Copyright (C) 1990 by Ake Eldberg There is no such thing as *The* Medieval Roman Catholic wedding ceremony. Practices varied from country to country and even from see to see. Marriage is not a Christian invention. When Europe was Christianized, the church had to deal with a wide variety of local customs formed by other faiths and traditions Q Celtic, Norse, Latin. The Germanic pagans didn't think of matrimony as a sacrament. To them, it was a legal contract between two families. Even a long time after the they had been converted to Chritianity, it was often difficult to make people understand the need for a Christian wedding service. The "pagan" ceremonies were mostly juridical and only peripherally connected to religion. The church couldn't simply replace the old rituals with one of its own. So the church absorbed everything that was not directly contrary to Christian faith, and incorporated these traditions into its ceremonies. I will try to describe how a medieval wedding might have been done in Scandinavia, but you should be aware that local customs may have been different where your persona comes from. Weddings before Christianity The juridical procedure in Norse society was complicated, but three ceremonial actions seem to have been necessary to make the marriage complete: 1. Engagement, which meant that the man and the woman were promised to each other. This was part of the deal, and economic compensation was necessary if one side wanted to break the engagement. 2. Wedding, where the bride was formally given to the bridegroom by her guardian, usually her father. This was done at a feast in the bridegroom's home. "I give thee my daughter" was the formula spoken by the guardian. 3. Bedding, where the couple went to bed together in the presence of witnesses. This was not a pornographic "live show"! The witnesses left before any sexual action began. But the fact that the couple had gone to bed together was firmly established. With Christianity came a different perspective. Marriage was now a sacrament, instituted by God and therefore something that concerned both church and society outside the two families. Mutual consent was demanded, and the husband was expected to be faithful. These were new ideas. Medieval wedding ceremonies The first part of the ceremony took place outside the church door. At cathedrals with several entrances, there was usually a designated "bridal door" for this. The actions done there corresponded to the functions of the old germanic ceremony. Even though it was now led by a priest, it was essentially a secular act by which the union of the families was confirmed. When people had arrived at the church door, the men were placed on the right side and the women on the left. If the bride was a virgin, her hands were bare. If she was a widow, she wore gloves. In some countries the most important parts were conducted in the vernacular, in others everything was in Latin. In the latter case, the priest would read the words that the bride and bridegroom were supposed to repeat. The ceremony at the church door began with the mutual consent of the man and the woman. The priest asked the man if he would take the woman for his wife. The man replied "Yes", and then turned to the woman and said: "I take thee, N. now to be my wife, in the name of the Lord". The same was then repeated for the woman. Next, the priest blessed the ring. Only one ring was used, given by the man to the woman. The ring was sprinkled with holy water, the bridegroom took the ring and moved it so that it came to be placed in turn on the bride's thumb, index finger and long finger - where it stayed. This was accompanied by the priest (or the bridegroom) saying: "In the name of the Father - and the Son - and the Holy Spirit". Non-Scandinavian rituals have different wordings and movements, where the ring would end on what we call the ring finger. Now the priest would bless the couple, after which the whole party moved into the church. According to some rituals, the couple held burning candles in their hands during the procession. Inside, a "bridal mass" was celebrated. It consisted of prayers, hymns, bible reading, antiphonals, and culminated in the solemn bridal benediction. The couple kneeled at the altar and a fine piece of cloth (called a "paell" in Swedish) was held over them by four unmarried people. The blessing of the bride included many words from the Old Testament, particularly the apocryphic book of Tobias. It included wishes that she should be good to her husband like Rachel, wise like Rebecca, and faithful like Sarah. Let her be fertile, chaste and innocent, and let them both live to see their offspring to the third and fourth generation. The bridal benediction is very old - the first known example is from the 5th century. After this benediction a mass (communion) followed. The ritual kissing of the bride belongs here, at the moment of the kiss of peace. The priest kissed the bridegroom, who kissed the bride, and then the bride passed the kiss on to the women while an assistant cleric brought it from the priest to the male side of the church (of course the men were on the south side and the women on the north side in the nave). Interestingly enough, the formula "I now pronounce you man and wife" was not used everywhere. It occurs in late period German and French rituals, but there is evidence that in older times, the priest left the confirmation of the marriage to God: "May the God of Abraham, Isac and Jacob unite youI" Afterwards, in the evening, there was the bedding. The Church adopted this pagan custom and converted it from a juridical act into a blessing of the matrimonial bed. Remember also that medieval wedding gowns were usually not white, as far as I know. I hope some of the above may be of use to you. If you want a medieval wedding, I suggest that you choose such medieval elements that are compatible with your faith and that are practically feasible, and try to incorporate them into whatever modern ritual your church is using. Having parts of the liturgy sung in Latin will help to give you a medieval feeling. William de Corbie ------- From: whh at PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) Date: 30 Aug 90 23:17:58 GMT Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA In article <9008291635.AA20875 at well.sf.ca.us>, well!jeannec at APPLE.COM ("Jeanne C. Stapleton") writes: PURGATORIO: I'd also like to mention, 'cause I didn't see it in Hal's Purgatorio report, that Lord Iulstan Sigewealding and his lady, Juturna the Musical, both received Leaves of Merit from James and Verena in their final court. Vivat and well deserved! I think another item about these two has been missed as well. They were married at the end of June. Full blown SCA wedding and feast. As a very nice touch for the wedding feast, they got a lot of wooden plates for the feast and then gifted them to the wedding guests afterwards. --Hal Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom Wilson H. Heydt, Jr., Albany, CA 94706, 415/524-8321 (home) ======================================================================= From: atterlep at vela.acs.oakland.edu (Eldon F. Zyzyskuzuk) Date: 12 Nov 90 23:34:06 GMT Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI In article <29955.273B7965 at stjhmc.fidonet.org> Yves.Fortan er at f510.n370.z1.fidonet.org (Yves Fortanier) writes: Good gentles, why are there 'SCA weddings'? If you've had one or performed one, what was the purpose? If like Brian, you don't like them, why not? Are they at least tolerable if they're entertaining? In my experience with SCA weddings, they're done mainly because, in many cases, many or most of the close friends of the couple are Scadians. Since SCA takes so much of so many people's lives, it seems natural that they would share marriage as they share so much else. As Baron Kevin recently commented, SCA is a family and a major purpose of the marriage ceremony is to have a family gathering. The most innovative way I ever saw of dealing with a SCA marriage is to make it into an event. Two of our group's oldest members (one has been to EVERY Pennsic War) were marrying, and so we decided to incorporate their marriage into our regular summer event. The flyers sent out mentioned the "signing of the marrige contract" as a major event in the day, and the mundane families of bride and groom were decked out in garb (which they acquired on their own). It was a lot of fun, but a huge amount of work (most of the group, myself included missed the ceremony because feast began immediately afterward.) It made for a nice touch and was definitely a lot of fun. (And it was period, too!) From: jerbil at nntp-server.caltech.edu (Joseph R. Beckenbach) Date: 12 Nov 90 19:52:13 GMT Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena Unto the gentles of the Rialto, greetings! Yves.Fortanier at f510.n370.z1.fidonet.org (Yves Fortanier) writes: Good gentles, why are there 'SCA weddings'? If you've had one or performed one, what was the purpose? If like Brian, you don't like them, why not? Are they at least tolerable if they're entertaining? In Caid I have heard of a few, all of which were either The Real Vows between two members with active SCA families on both sides (and thus LOTS of SCA friends), or a second ceremony to share the joy with their SCA friends after having the civil or church ceremony for the non-SCA friends. The only related happenings I have witnessed have been 'hand-fastings' held after Opening Court, which formalized an engagement for the traditional Scottish 'year and a day'. Those have all specifically been announced in Court as being "ten minutes after the end of Court" in a different pavilion than that of Court, and that people are invited to witness if they chose. Such hand-fastings usually are quite well witnessed, and not only by friends of the two principals involved.... A gorgeous little ceremony. In service, Joseph d'Aquitaine From: bloch at mandrill.ucsd.edu (Steve Bloch) Date: 17 Nov 90 02:48:58 GMT Yves.Fortanier at f510.n370.z1.fidonet.org (Yves Fortanier) writes: Good gentles, why are there 'SCA weddings'? If you've had one or performed one, what was the purpose? If like Brian, you don't like them, why not? Are they at least tolerable if they're entertaining? A month or two ago two gentles of the Barony were wed. They scheduled the 20th-century (I'm hesitant to use "mundane" for a wedding!) ceremony for 5 PM, the SCA ceremony for 7 PM, and the reception and semi-potluck feast immediately thereafter. Both ceremonies were held at one of our regular event sites, and everyone changed clothes in between (the couple's non-SCA relatives and guests were provided with adequate garb). The whole thing was not an intrusion on an SCA event, it was effectively an SCA event of its own, though not announced in Kingdom newsletters. It is traditional in this Barony for a gentleman to go to the Baron and Baroness to request permission to court such-and-such lady (unwed ladies being by assumption wards of Their Excellencies), and after some months to return to ask Their Excellencies' permission to wed. This request is followed by lengthy haggling over brideprice and/or dowry, after which arrangements for the wedding are made. The aforementioned wedding had all this (over the course of a year or two), as well as some very good-theatre gift-givings, drinking-from-the-same-cup, etc. culminating in a running jump over a crossed sword and broom. After which it was time to eat, and then dance. This wedding was done very well, and I believe all present (including the dozens of non-SCA folk) enjoyed it immensely. -- Stephen Bloch Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib sca>Caid>Calafia>St.Artemas bloch at cs.ucsd.edu From: BERDANJ at YALEVM.BITNET (Amoret of Dragonship Haven) Date: 29 Jan 91 14:43:03 GMT Organization: The Internet Greetings to the Rialto! In answer to the question of Yaakov HaMizrachi <lawbkwc at buacca.bitnet> regarding appropriate colors for period wedding attire in Europe and the lands of Islam: The modern "white wedding" is a Victorian development (and an upper-class one at that). In Europe at least, period wedding dress would simply be the best outfits the couple had. While it might have been made specifically for the wedding, it would be expected to serve as their "dress-up" clothes until it wore out. No particular color was mandated; whatever is apprpriate in period, but fancier. (I.e., peasants would not be dressed in black, since they could not have gotten the color, etc.) I am less certain about Muslim dress. My only suggestion comes from my viewing of a recent museum exhibit on Saudi costume, which included several wedding outfits. They were several different colors; a shocking-pink one comes to mind. The common denominator was that all were dripping with as much jewelry and decoration as could be managed. I would suspect that the important part was not color, but how much wealth the bride could manage to show off at her wedding. I will gladly be enlightened if someone knows differently. Amoret of Dragonship Haven mka Susan de Guardiola TO: Ravenwing FROM: Da'ud Al-haqq SUBJECT: Weddings -> In the midst of a rare brain-idea collision, Ravenwing said to All: -> -> RR>" One of the members of our Barony is planning to do a -> RR>"13th c British wedding service in late July, but he is -> RR>"having difficulty locating an authentic period text of the -> RR>"service. Can anyone out there help out. I don't even know -> RR>"where to send him to try to look something like that up. . Britain in the 1200's would probably have confined all of its "gentle" wedding services to Church liturgy, with Norman overtones to be sure. The less-than-gentle services, say those of Northern England or Wales might have a measure more fun in them, though, with pre-Norman Danelaw and Celtic commonfolk traditions involved. --- * Origin: Don't be nervous or I'll have you beheaded! (1:135/99) TO: Cadi FROM: Da'ud Al-haqq SUBJECT: Weddings -> CC>"And so, what would those Celtic commonfolk traditions have -> CC>"consisted of? Specifics vary from area to area in the British countryside, from morris dancing to May poles, all of which are ceremonies for personal fertility (and weddings are linked to the agricultural fertility ceremonies) as well as calendar events. There are songs, dances, and feasts that all have peculiarities of the villages which performed them. No single rule of what they consist of applies to all, but you may wish to research these in the folklore section of a good college library. --- * Origin: Don't be nervous or I'll have you beheaded! (1:135/99) From: dolata at lead.uazaic.arizona.edu (Dolata) Date: 14 Jul 91 22:15:13 GMT Organization: University of Arizona AI Chemistry Lab, Tucson, AZ Dearest Gentles, If I may be allowed to insert a comment about tailoring fees; In 1982 my Dear Lady and I decided to be wed in Rennaisance fashion. We hired Dorothy Breen (daughter of Marion Zimmer Bradly) as our seamstress. We bought the material, and paid her for the immense amout of work necessary to construct two very authentic Court Dress of the style of the court of Henry VIII of England. At that time the cost was about $500. Apart from two small problems, the clothing has served us well and faithfully through the years. (Problem #1, the sleeves on her dress were not 100% correct. Problem #2, where DID these 25 extra pounds come from????) Over these years we have come to feel that the fees were modest, and a good investment. After all, nowadays I spend about 2/3 of that just on a boring 2 piece pin-stripe suit! Yes, the cost of tailoring may seem very high. But good material and good craftsmenship will last, and if you amortize that over 20 years... the cost becomes minimal. I hope you receive as good as of value as we did, and remain Yours in Service Thomas Ignatius Perigrinus Minister of Arts and Sciences (brewing! now there's an art I College of St. Felix can support!!!!) From: BERDANJ at YALEVM.BITNET (Alejandra Mercedes de Rosanegra) Date: 22 Aug 91 13:08:03 GMT Organization: The Internet Greetings to the Rialto and to Alessandra Francesca Chiarmontesi (who has a nice first name!) In regards to the query as to information on Italian Renaissance (especially Venetian) weddings, information on marriage itself in Venice may be found in both: _Civic Ritual in Renaissance Venice_ by Edward Muir ISBN 0-691-10200-7 _The Boundaries of Eros_ by Guido Ruggiero ISBN 0-19-505696-5 Among other things, it seems that whether one was actually married or not was a bit unclear to many, particularly among the lower classes; rather like modern common-law marriage. A description of a mid-fifteenth-century Florentine wedding ceremony may be found in _Giovanni and Lusanna_ by Gene Brucker ISBN 0-520-06328-7 but it is a description of a somewhat clandestine marriage (and the book focuses on the resulting "palimony" suit filed by Lusanna against Giovanni.) Hope this is of assistance! Alejandra Mercedes de Rosanegra From: whheydt at PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) Date: 22 Oct 91 18:40:17 GMT Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA In article <9110211929.aa20656 at mc.lcs.mit.edu>, BERDANJ at YALEVM.BITNET (Alejandra) writes: Did those of you who are attached meet your spouse/whatever through the SCA? I met my Lady Wife at the first event I attended. We were married about 14 months later at one of the earliest SCA weddings. --Hal Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom Wilson H. Heydt, Jr., Albany, CA 94706, 415/524-8321 (home) From: samlb at optilink.UUCP (Sam Bassett) Date: 31 Oct 91 19:13:22 GMT Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA From article <29420 at nntpd.lkg.dec.com>, by norteman at tnpubs.enet.dec.com (Karen J. Norteman): >a large >scroll describing the particulars of the wedding and balanced with >lots of space at the bottom for guests' signatures. I've seen this done a number of times, and made two of them myself for SCAdian friends' weddings. And I often do the same thing for weddings I perform -- the official State of California/local county Marriage Certificates are horrors, so I usually make the couple a "Wall hanger" in my Fine Italic Hand . . . -- Sam'l Bassett -- System Administrator (among other things) Work: DSC, 1310-C Redwood Wy, Petaluma 94975; 1-707-792-7253 Home: 7 Gothic Court, Novato CA 94947; 1-415-897-7424 UUCP: uunet!optilink!samlb; Internet: samlb at well.sf.ca.us From: mongo at maple.circa.ufl.edu Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Religion in the SCA (long) Date: 13 Mar 1993 13:58:20 GMT Organization: Center for Instructional and Research Computing Activities The more extensive, obvious, and public the expression, the more uncomfortable I feel. I'm not sure I have ever been at a religious ceremony where, at some point, the congregation has not been asked to pray --- at this point, I have been asked to become a participant, and I feel very uncomfortable. If the reason is good enough, I put up with this discomfort. I would probably feel different about a religious knighting ceremony where the congregation was never expected to pray. (Is this period? I have no idea.) But at all ceremonies I can recall attending, and I believe this includes the few religious weddings, I was asked, at least implicitly, to be a participant. This strikes me as a very different thing than to associate with those of different beliefs. First off, let me say that I'm merely an interested bystander. I'm not a member of the SCA (nor do I play one on TV), but I number about a dozen friends who are, and being a minister, a ex-doctoral history student, a self-taught herald, and a fair-minded man, I'm often called upon to mediate disputes...not that that's what I plan to do here, much... Being a minister in a very tolerant, non-denominational, NON-CHRISTIAN religion (of our own local founding, and using vaguely Anglican and RC titles and phrases to keep the Good Ol' Boys in this town happy), I have been placed in the position of writing and performing wedding and baptism ceremonies that, while religious, are non-demoninational. For instance, my first parishoner (the first man to actually seriously introduce me, 22-year-old scruffy earringed baggy-eyed-from-lack-of-sleep lout that I was, as his minister) is nominally Southern Baptist. His wife is Wiccan, after years of being raised as a Seventh-Day Adventist. Do you know how HARD it is to write a ceremony that won't offend anyone? But it can be DONE...If anyone's interested, I have the text to both the "standard" wedding and baptism ceremonies somewhere on disk. The fact is that a ceremony doesn't have to be offensive to ANYONE unless you deliberately go out of your way to find any public display of faith offensive on the grounds of sheer principle. But that's not the belief I've seen expressed in this newsgroup. From: bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: SCA as Game Date: Mon, 31 May 93 06:42:37 GMT Organization: Lethargy Inc. Payn le Chaunster to Sister Kate, Greetings! "Subculture" seems to fit the SCA well. At the same time, and although I'm not sure what definitions of religion have surfaced in the Thinkwell discussion, I've often thought that heavy involvement with the Society fulfils many of the same social, cultural and psychological needs as religion. Perhaps that's because religious groups can be subcultures too. Which doesn't really lead on to my next point, but hey... Last year I looked into the regulations regarding marriage celebrants in New Zealand, since two SCA people were planning a deeply SCA wedding and would have liked an SCA celebrant. There are two classes of marriage celebrants in New Zealand: generic civil marriage celebrants (with a huge waiting list to become one), and marriage celebrants appointed by one of the groups on the list of government-approved groups-which-can-appoint-celebrants. At present that list consists almost entirely of religious denominations, but the wording of the relevant Act of Parliament also allows groups with certain sorts of <racks memory> cultural and humanitarian aims to apply. I had a chat to the Registrar of Births, Deaths and Marriages about it: he brought up the group option and suggested that the SCA *might* be eligible, and that the only way to find out how the Act would be interpreted was to apply. This potentially- interesting test-case was stillborn after the betrothed couple worked out that they were better off if they didn't legally wed. It raised some questions for me, though. Would the SCA be interested in being the sort of organisation which could appoint marriage celebrants? At first I was quite enthusiastic about this (every well-equipped group needs a celebrant ;-), but then there came a range of niggling doubts. The initial appointment of a group and single celebrant is one thing: the group's power from then on to submit a list of celebrants is quite another, especially in light of the drastic changes of personnel to which SCA branches seem prone. Then there was the fact that although officially this would be something between the New Zealand SCA (which would probably have had to incorporate for the purpose) and the New Zealand Government, positions in the local hierarchy of would-be celebrant-appointers are subject to the approval of people in California. It had the potential to get Very Messy. I'm still interested, though, at least in talking about it. Has anyone else looked at the possiblities for this sort of thing? Is it compatible with the aims of the Society? Would it be desirable? __________________________________________________________________________ Jennifer Geard bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.general.nz Christchurch, New Zealand Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: SCA as Game From: bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 93 22:40:12 GMT Organization: Lethargy Inc. Payn to Andrew, Greetings! [SCA NZ and marriage celebrants] > I wonder if this wouldn't destroy the legal standing of the Society in both > CA (where it was incorporated as an -educational- organisation) and the US > Federal system, where we 'enjoy' a similar status. Considering the furour > currently visible/audible w.r.t. the separation of Church and State in the > US, I think that it might well be a Bad Idea for the US corporation to be > seen as sponsoring a 'religion'. Some clarifications first: a New Zealand marriage celebrant is a person authorised to conduct legal marriages and do the paperwork for them. The State appoints all marriage celebrants. As well as warranting individuals as civil celebrants, the State warrants groups which then send the State an annual list of people they'd like as marriage celebrants for that year. Currently all of those groups are religious denominations, but the criteria for warranting groups (which involve them promoting either religious beliefs or philosophical or humanitarian convictions) would *very probably* cover groups such as Greenpeace, Rotary, and even the Diabetes Society. No-one's yet tried it, and there's interest in a test-case. The application would be made *not* as a religious group, but as a group which promotes certain philosophical convictions (the ideals of courtesy and chivalry come to mind), has its own subculture such that it would benefit from having a sympathetic person to cater to the needs of the group, and has a certain solidity and respectability which never hurts when doing this sort of thing. In Christchurch, where the SCA has done more than a few demo:s for Council events, we could put together a reasonable case. DISCLAIMER: There are no plans afoot to do this at the moment, and I'm talking about it merely because I found the idea intriguing and wondered how others saw it. In order to apply we'd need a local SCA couple who wanted to be legally married by an SCA celebrant but were prepared to wait a year, a proposed initial celebrant who could get good character references from people inside and outside the SCA, "character references" for the SCA in NZ, NZ Inc. status or equivalent, and someone nutty enough to take the case through. > I think it should well be discussed in light of the differences in corporate > law between the US (and the People's Republic of California <grin>) and New > Zealand. Perhaps incorporating the SCA there would be suffcient distancing > for the American legal entities not to fly up into the bows, but I rather > doubt it, given their track records. The SCA would have to be a legal entity in NZ before the procedure even began, and NZ legal independence would become an issue. I strongly doubt that anything done by an independent entity (which happened to have a similar name) in another country would affect the SCA US, but US law is a mystery to me. RESTATED DISCLAIMER: No, we're not planning it at the moment. I looked into it when a couple of friends were planning their wedding, but they decided against a legal marriage and I decided the SCA was probably better kept out of this sort of thing. (NB: I talk about "legal marriage" a lot. There are reasons, but they're probably more relevant to a soc.* group. I've just been on the phone to the Registrar of Births, Deaths, and Marriages (again) who described some of the situations where they've helped people put together weddings which are quite intentionally *not* legal marriages. Inter-country anthro.) ________________________________________________________________________ Jennifer Geard bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz Christchurch, New Zealand From: AYLWIN at HOLONET.NET Subject: Re: SCA as Game Organization: HoloNet National Internet Access System: 510-704-1058/modem Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1993 08:04:31 GMT MI>On Cariadoc's third hand, performing marriages is quite clearly outside the MI>purposes of the SCA, Inc.. In the period which we study, all marriage MI>ceremonies _were_ religious. We have chosen to exclude religion from our MI>official activities. The only marriage ceremony which could be an MI>appropriate activity to be sponsored by the SCA would be a period one, MI>which would be a religious one, which would conflict with our policy MI>choices. I must beg to differ. My Lady and I combined our Society wedding with our legal one, which was made possible by an old Montana law allowing two people to marry as long as they get a couple of witnesses together and have everyone sign a letter to be later filed with the authorities. No minister, no Justice of the Peace, just some friends who can later say, "Yep, they went and announced that they was hitched." All of this is leading up to the fact that I did a bit of research into medieval marriage customs, so that we might be historically accurate in our ceremony. What I found was that weddings evolved over time. In early period, weddings were often strikingly similar to the above law - the couple announced their vows before friends, and that was that. A little later, they still wedded before friends, but then went to the local church to repeat their vows on the building's steps, before the priest. As time went on, the church ceremony became more important, and moved into the chapel, while the civil ceremony dropped out of use. The preceeding was very quick and rough, and omitted many details. It does, however, touch on the point that, at least early on, weddings were not strictly religious affairs. Sir Aylwin the Flamehaired Barony of Sentinels' Keep / Artemisia aylwin at holonet.net Atenveldt From: sclark at epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Clark) Subject: Re: Marrages, Life Events and Re: SCA as Game Organization: University of Toronto - EPAS Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1993 22:47:13 GMT Greetings.... All this talk about marriages makes me remember all that canon law I play around with..... In brief, marriage was (and still is, I think) the only sacrament performed BY THE PARTICIPANTS. That's right, marriage is celebrated by the couple, no priest or no witnesses officially needed. Now, both Church and secular officials came to frown on clandestine marriages, mostly because of inhetance and legitimacy issues, so gradually mostly civil and a few church strictures were applied to marriages so as to encourage public ceremonies done before a priest. As to how to do "real" marriages in the SCA, I have met many a couple who have had two or three ceremonies for different groups of people. One thing I discovered while preparing to get hitched myself was that in Ontario,a civil ceremony may only be held in a judge's chambers, thus necessitating some sort of religious offical (even if they do a generic, non-sectarian ceremony) if the wedding is held anywhere else. Now the group of folks who can perform these ceremonies is quite wide (it includes, for instance, the Wiccan Church of Canada)....but still, this could really restrict anyone wanting to have an SCA wedding and still observe the no relgious ceremonies thing....however, almost every SCAdian I have met who has had a garbed wedding has done it as a PRIVATE event (albeit one where herds of SCA folk are invited and where the format is nearly indistinguishable from an SCA event) Regards Nicolaa de Bracton of Leicester sclark at epas.utoronto.ca Susan Carroll-Clark From: hjfeld at acs2.bu.edu (harold feld) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: SCA as Game Date: 8 Jun 93 18:22:10 GMT Organization: Boston University, Boston, MA, USA In article <1uvtsd$qim at usenet.pa.dec.com>, haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock) writes: |> |> Greetings from Fiacha, |> |> Tadhg says |> |> > Actually, you were correct: all marriage ceremonies *were* religious, |> > although not necessarily under the purview of the Christian church;... |> |> I can accept this only if you admit that certain cultures allowed, if not |> encouraged, cohabitation for the purpose of raising children without a need |> for the partners to be 'married' in a religious sense. |> |> As far as I can tell, the Irish were such a culture. |> |> Fiacha There is also the rather difficult problem of distinguishing between the legal and religious consequences of marraige. for example: In Medieval England, after primogeniture became the mandatory law of inheritance, the question of whether a legal marraige took place or not was crucial. Now, while inhereitance was determined at law in the Court of Common Pleas, the determination of marraige could *only* be made by the local ecclesiastical court. Nevertheless, certain questions (such as matters of consanguinuity or whether the factual pattern of a marraige or ravishment had taken place) where held to be legal matters determined by putting the "question to the country" (trial by jury). So, assume Adam has a son, Fulk, by Matilda. Adam then has another son, John, by Elizabeth. On the death of Adam, both claim the estate. Fulk claims to take by primogeniture, by John claims that Matilda and Adam were consaguinous, and therefore the original marraige to Matilda was void and Fulk is a bastard. John claims consaguinity because Matilda's sister, Anne, slept with Adam's brother, Arthur. Now, the Jury determines whether the fact pattern claimed by John is true (assuming Fulk issues a general denial, which I'll assume he does or things start to get a little complicated. :-)). If the jury decide that John is telling the truth, the case then goes to the Ecclesiastical court to determine if such a relationship is consanguinous and makes a legal determination whether Fulk is a bastard. (It is unclear whether the change in court allows Fulk to re-argue the facts found by the Jury. By Elizabethan, times, its clear the answer is "no", and would result in a writ of error against the church court). If the ecclesiastic court finds consanguinuity, then the case goes back to common pleas on the question of whether Fulk can inhereit (answer: no, but we need to enter it as an official verdict). My point? The modern concept of "marraige" is complicated, having both religious and secular consequences. In discussing what various cultures did or did not recognize as marraige, it is important to state how you mean the question. In Service, Mar Yaakov Subject: Re: period wedding From: Linda Peck, lspeck at indirect.COM Date: 11 Aug 1993 05:09:11 -0400 In article <9308110907.AA03603 at indirect.com> Linda Peck, lspeck at indirect.COM writes: LIBLBM at orion.DEpaul.EDU (MURPHY LORI) writes: >: Does anyone know of any books that contain information on middle >: eastern weddings? I/we want to renew our vows and want to do it >: in a period middle eastern style. So far, I have only found >: small references to henna that the bride applied the night before. >: Any information will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. >: Sahar Ardelys responded: >I don't know if this was done in period or not, but there are a number >of current Muslim wedding practices that include the bride having >intricate designs painted in henna on her hands and feet the night before the wedding. [...] At the last Estrella, I had the pleasure of being invited to one of these parties, in period or course. The idea was to paint the brides hands and those of any participant available. Also there was refreshments (it is customary for the women to make a big deal of any gathering, especially this one) and stories of how to treat the new husband as relates to money. (usually in the form of gold-modern-or silver-period), work, and of course fathfulness. - Please understand that the bride and groom were doing a pretend wedding therefore this was a pretend party, but that didn't stop the gossip or suggestions. - The party was a blast. It was held in the afternoon before the wedding. The wedding BTW was a 12th century shepardic recreation. Very well researched and performed. If you are going to Pensic find the current Queen of the Outlands, Elisheva. It was her head Lady in waiting who put on this party, she will be there as well. If you do find HM Elisheva give her a hug from Rhianwen. Wish I could go too. Oh yes. There was another tradition used at this party. I believe it was Turkish. A silver coin was placed in right (i believe) palm of the bride. It was covered with henna . . .lots of henna. Then wrapped so the hand was covered. The next morning when the hand was un wrapped if the coin had left a mark (IOW a white spot in the middle of a red blob) then the bride would be prosperious otherwise, not. There was a white spot in the dark red blob. For weeks on end. Imagine explaining that to your boss. ------------------------------------------------------------- Rhianwen Subject: Re: period wedding From: Ed Kreyling 6966, kreyling at lds.loral.com Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1993 13:15:48 GMT In article <1993Aug11.131548.18254 at lds.loral.com> Ed Kreyling 6966, kreyling at lds.loral.com writes: In article <9308110907.AA03603 at indirect.com> lspeck at indirect.COM (Linda Peck) writes: >LIBLBM at orion.DEpaul.EDU (MURPHY LORI) writes: >>: Does anyone know of any books that contain information on middle >>: eastern weddings? I/we want to renew our vows and want to do it >>: in a period middle eastern style. So far, I have only found >>: small references to henna that the bride applied the night before. >>: Any information will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. >>: Sahar Greetings Lori, My wife's apprentice has done extensive research in Middle Eastern customs. She was gratious enough to give me a large list of references which I could upload later but for now she said that the following two sources were the best for what you want: COMBS-SHILLING,M.E. "SACRED PERFORMANCES: ISLAM,SEXUALITY, AND SACRIFICE" Columbia University Press, N.Y. 1989 (ISBN: 0231 06974-x-1989) Chapters 6,10,11,13,15. KANAFANI, "AESTHETICS AND RITUALS IN THE UNITED ARAB EMIRATES," rest of bio unavailable as she only has copies of sections of the book. I hope this is of some help. Erik. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ed Kreyling | Master Erik of Telemark O.L.,O.P. kreyling at world.lds.loral.com | Shire of Brineside Moor Sarasota,Fl. USA | Kingdom of Trimaris, SCA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: AYLWIN at HOLONET.NET Subject: Re: Ceremonies in the SCA Organization: HoloNet National Internet Access System: 510-704-1058/modem Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 08:19:22 GMT BO>[It's been argued that 'secular' weddings are okay. IMHO, the nature of a BO>'wedding is just too deeply involved in religious rites to ever divorce the BO>two... :^) ] For what it's worth, my Lady and I held our legal wedding as an SCA event. There was no mention of any religion or higher powers, and involved the current Prince and Princess joining us in wedlock (such things are legal in Montana). We modeled everything, near as we could, upon secular ceremonies that were originally held in addition to the church ceremony. What worked for us, though, won't work for everyone. Sir Aylwin the Flamehaired Barony of Sentinels' Keep / Artemisia aylwin at holonet.net Atenveldt Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: waltz at mprgate.mpr.ca (Marina Waltz) Subject: Re: period wedding Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 20:55:06 GMT LIBLBM at orion.DEpaul.EDU (MURPHY LORI) writes: : Does anyone know of any books that contain information on middle : eastern weddings? I/we want to renew our vows and want to do it : in a period middle eastern style. So far, I have only found : small references to henna that the bride applied the night before. : Any information will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. : Sahar I don't know if this was done in period or not, but there are a number of current Muslim wedding practices that include the bride having intricate designs painted in henna on her hands and feet the night before the wedding. The bride's friends frequently paint one of their own palms or another friend's also. I have participated in these night-before evenings on three occasions and they are a great deal of fun. It is usually a professional woman who comes in and paints the bride's hands and feet, and the designs are really beautiful. The henna is mixed with water and lemon juice, and is applied with something like a cake decorator for making fine lines. The bride's friends usually use toothpicks to paint their designs. A solution of lemon and sugar and some clove oil is frequently patted onto the henna to help it stick to the hands (it flakes off quite easily once it is dry). The participants go to sleep without washing the henna patterns off if they want the designs to last for awhile. The patterns are usually visible from one to two weeks afterwards. I don't know if this information is any help to you or not, but if you are looking through books and see pictures of women with fancy patterns on their hands and feet, you'll know that they are newleyweds, and that patterning was done back then. If you decide to go ahead with this I'm sure you'll really enjoy it - it was lots of fun. (On another note - Many of the women I used to work with were Indian, but our boss wasn't. She hated it whenever any of them got married. She used to say it looked like we had a palmful of worms. As they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.) Regards, Ardelys Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Asking for a lady's hand. From: bettina.helms at channel1.com (Bettina Helms) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 93 21:34:00 -0500 Organization: Channel 1(R) * 617-864-0100 Info * 617-354-7077 Modem MA> A question has arisen as to the proper way to ask for MA>a lady's hand. Prior to asking the lady for her hand, MA>does the suitor need her baron's leave to ask the lady? MA>Further if she is a member of a House, does the suitor MA>need the leave of the head of the House? If the MA>permission of both the baron and the head of the House MA>are needed, which gentle is asked of first? Different places, situations and personas, different customs. In the East, the local Baron (if there is one) is at most requested to give the pair his official blessing after all other permissions (including the lady's) are obtained. Am not sure what the situation is regarding households, and it may differ even from one Household to the next - so you may as well start by discussing with the head of the Household what formalities are involved. If the lady's persona is early Norse or early Celt, you ask *her* first, and anyone else involved *after* she has agreed to your suit! -- Katja, who is a person in her own right and no man's chattel! :-) From: David Friedman <NetID at cornell.edu> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Asking for a lady's hand... Date: 19 Sep 1993 15:16:07 GMT Organization: Cornell University Mark writes: > A question has arisen as to the proper way to ask for >a lady's hand. Prior to asking the lady for her hand, >does the suitor need her baron's leave to ask the lady? >Further if she is a member of a House, does the suitor >need the leave of the head of the House? If the >permission of both the baron and the head of the House >are needed, which gentle is asked of first? I think in principle the person whose permission you must ask is her father or, failing that, her guardian. In period, wardship was an important matter. When Henry II wanted to express his appreciation for William the Marshall's services, he did so by promising him the wardship of Isabel of Pembroke, daughter and Heiress of the Earl of Pembroke and (through her grandfather, Dermot) heiress to about a quarter of Ireland. Henry died, Richard acted on the promise, and William promptly married Isabel, converting himself from an almost landless knight to one of the wealthiest and most powerful barons in England. So you should first find out whose ward she is, then ask him. I'm sure the gentlemen who married my last three wards must have done so, but at my age memory is not entirely reliable. I'll have to make sure next time. David/Cariadoc From: pyotr at halcyon.com (Peter D. Hampe) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Minister seeks help for medieval-style wedding Date: 4 Oct 1993 18:55:51 -0700 Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc. I missed the first post but ... HH> I'm posting this request on behalf of a Unitarian minister who HH> is stuck out in the middle of Illinois. She has been asked to HH> devise and officiate at a wedding ceremony for two SCA members HH> with 11th - 12th century medieval European personae. They wish HH> to have a "medieval style" wedding suitable for their period. The HH> minister is at a loss for sources for such a ceremony, so I'm HH> asking in probably the most likely newsgroup! Any help would HH> be appreciated. The quick and dirty way is to find a Book of Common Prayer (pre 1551 ed, the 1549 is deemed to be borderline 'suspect' it says 'ere. :-) ) And go from there - the rubrics hadn't been changed that much from Roman PRactice. So you can do a rather straight wing it. Of course, a Unitarian might have trouble with a Trinitarian source book, but that's life. Customs surounding the nuptial mass varied from town to town - that's going to be a harder trick to pull off. good louck and good fortune. chus pyotr -- pyotr at halcyon.com Pyotr Filipivich, sometimes Owl. From: Caitlin.Nic.Raighne at f350.n280.z1.fidonet.org (Caitlin Nic Raighne) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Politics and Weddings and such Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1993 23:18:00 -0500 RL> My Lady is a Lombard Circa 1200, I am a Late Celt/Early Scots RL> persona. RL> we were considering doing the celebration in early Tudor, or RL> perhaps in RL> 14-15 century houplands (excuse spelling please). RL> Come on, hasn't ANYBODY ever done and SCA wedding? My lord husband and I had an SCA wedding last summer (1992) to commemorate our 20th wedding anniversary. We had a late 15th century Scottish Highland wedding. The Shire made it a kingdom event. There was a tournament of love earlier in the day, and A&S competition with a Celtic theme, and a feast of three removes for 100 people. Since the Prince and Princess were in attendance, a court with the wedding ceremony performed before them. Our local Seneschal was the officiator. The ceremony consisted of Anlon's "clan leader" (a friend who agreed to dress and act the part) leading he and his assistants into the court. The assistants were carrying his bride price which consisted of bolts of material, spices, bottles of mead, a shepherd to refer to his herd of sheep, and a bag of "gold". (He has a merchant persona). Then the "clan leader" and his wife (my father and mother) entered leading me and my assistants who were carrying my dowry. It consisted of hand made quilts, baskets of homemade bread, a loom, a person to refer to the marvelous horse I brought to the household, ownership of a parcel of land in far off Meridies, and our then 16 year old son to prove my ability to produce a male heir! (We wanted to involve him in the ceremony in some way and this seemed a good way to do it!) Baron Charles basically based the ceremony on the Brehon laws of handfasting. There is a beautiful scroll that Baroness Graidhne ni Ruaidh calliged and illumined. The reading of it was basically the entire ceremony. If you like I can give the text in a later message. I made all the garb for Anlon, Seamus and myself as well as for my parents since they are not SCA. I wore a Tudor dress in light green velvet with the turned back sleeves lined in light green damask. Anlon wore a kilt and a doublet made of the same damask. His Tudor shirt was silk. Seamus wore a Tudor silk shirt, kilt and a leather doublet. My father wore trews and a cotton Tudor shirt with a brat brooched on one shoulder. (There was no way her would wear a kilt!). My mother wore a dress with a Spanish Surcoat over it. I know it wasn't exactly the same period but since she wears the same size I do, and she's not in the SCA, I made something else I wanted to own! This ceremony was a lot of work but it was a whole lot of fun for not only us but everyone who attended. We had about 150 people in attendance. Not bad for an event that was solely based on the wedding of two relative un-knowns in our kingdom! Oh yes, I forgot to mention that the winner of the tournament received a chainmail hauberk that was made and donated by a member of our shire. My son, Seamus made the site tokens. They were cast pewter celtic crosses. He made 175 and those we didn't give away on site I have since given away as gifts. I still get comments about those sight tokens. Forgive the rambling note. I hope some of this is helpful. I enjoyed the remembrance of a wonderful day. None of this could have been done without the help of an exceptionally helpful and hardworking shire! Beannachd leibh, Ly Caitlin nic Raighne Chatelaine, Shire of Dun Ard, Calontir From: Karen.Moon at f555.n387.z1.fidonet.org (Karen Moon) Date: 07 Jun 94 19:14:00 -0500 Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Norse Weddings Organization: Fidonet: Cygnus I.I.N. / San Antonio, TX / 210-641-2063 Good Lady, I have participated in two weekend long Norse weddings in my group. The research was done in the main by HL Gunnora Hallakarva, who is at the moment engaged in putting this info in book form to be published hopefully this year. She is always glad to share her information. The ceremony she has reconstructed works quite well (each time was a bit different but both were neat). If you will be so kind as to send me your Snail Mail address, I'll have her send you the info. If you can't get me on E-mail -- this is an echo I'm getting -- send your address w/ (with a letter reminding me who you are *smile*) to Mari, 2935 Nacogdoches Rd #217, San Antonio, TX, 78217. Yours, Mari ferch Rathtyen --------- Fidonet: Karen Moon 1:387/555 Internet: Karen.Moon at f555.n387.z1.fidonet.org From: ifdz176 at utxsvs.cc.utexas.edu (Amanda Shields- Queen of the Smurfs) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period Wedding advice Date: Fri, 09 Sep 1994 18:58:25 -0600 Organization: University of Texas at Austin In article <34q3cl$r10 at search01.news.aol.com>, rhiannon5 at aol.com (Rhiannon5) wrote: > My finace and I are planning a period outdoor wedding, and are looking for > information on a suitable ceremony. Any help would be appreciated. > > Rhiannon ne BrennenDate: Fri, 09 Sep 1994 18:16:29 -0600 From: ifdz176 at utxsvs.cc.utexas.edu (Amanda Shields- Queen of the Smurfs) Subject: Re: Period Wedding advice Organization: University of Texas at Austin In article <34q3cl$r10 at search01.news.aol.com>, you wrote: Gee, I just happened to have run across the perfect book in the library on customs regarding births, marriages, and death. I do not have it with me at the moment, but I can give you the gist of what I can remember it having said. The wedding gown need not necessarily be white. That custom got started around the eighteenth century (in other words, OOP). The wedding dress was much like a court dress (but as fancy a court dress as one could afford), except it had a train. The maid of honor would bear this train. The less popular wedding headgear was the headgear of the period. What was the more popular wedding headgear was letting one's hair go long, and wearing a crown on top of it. Anne Boelyn's (?) wedding crown had sprigs of fresh rosemary in it. NOTE: During the time period when hennins were in fashion, and women tended to shave their heads, the woman wore her hennin, not a baldie-shine and a crown :) ) The groom would wear what amounts to his best court gear (all new, of course), but again, this is the absolute finest stuff he owns. Best embroidery, gem-studded, the whole schmeer on both the bride's and the groom's outfits. From all the stuff running around from the time that guy found that medieval gay wedding ceremony a few months back, it was said weddings would take place on the steps of the church, possibly with a celebration of the Eucharist afterwards (I do not know your religious affiliation) During Elizabethan times, the wedding ring would be worn on the thumb. All other time periods show the wedding ring in its more traditional position, or even on the right hand. Poesy Rings (plain bands with some sort of love poem inscribed on the inside) were popular as wedding rings in the sixteenth century. Also, James Avery has a replica of Martin Luther's wedding ring in both silver and gold, for both men and women. If you don't have a ring yet, y'all should check this out. This is all I can remember for now, but if you would like to e-mail me for more details, the address is ifdz176 at utxsvs.cc.utexas.edu I hope I have been of some help to you. Congratulations, and good luck! Anagret (or Anne Margarethe-whatever the Heralds will pass) von Bayern From: archmonk at news.gate.net (John W. Missing) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period Wedding advice Date: 25 Sep 1994 06:42:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Period Wedding advice M'Lady, It is good to hear from you again. R>In article <199409201849.OAA63102 at hopi.gate.net>, archmonk at gate.NET R>writes: R>::I must ask a few questions to be able to answer your question properly. R>::Is this to be a real (legal) wedding? Precisely what period (there is R>::quite a difference between 7th Century and 17th Century)? What are the R>::nationalities of the personae? Finally and very importantly, what R>::religion? R>It will be a legal wedding. We are looking at a time period between 11th R>and 14th centuries. We are both of Celtic personae. And I'm pagan and R>he's ex-catholic. Thanks for the help. Are these the religions of your personae? Or your mundane ones as well? If you have a Catholic service (and in your period it was not unusual for a pagan to have a public church wedding and a very secretive pagan ritual) , the Nuptial Mass hasn't changed significantly from the 12th or 13th century up to Vatican II, but you should have a priest if it is to include Mass. However, if it is the wedding only, in most states it would be valid as long as any cleric or notary performs the service. If on the other hand you want a pagan service, I'm sure there are knowledgeable pagans who could supply the service and even perform it. However, in some states they might have to be a notary or otherwise certified for it to be valid. If you have trouble locating the service you want, I can probably locate it for you. I'll have to leave it to you to find an officiant. Blessings. R sinful monk Diormid, priest. rka Father Joseph mka John Missing R R>Rhiannon ne Brennen --- From: greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period weddings Date: 13 Jan 1995 10:56:46 -0500 Organization: Guest of MIT AI and LCS labs Greetings to all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn. Everard asks, >I am going to get married in the near future (June) and we would like a >vaguely period wedding for England circa 12th century. Unfortunately, I >have had little luck in my research and less time to do further. We are >shooting for as religiously neutral as possible (We're not Christian but >our families are). It's going to be outdoors and casual (at least the >guests-I'll be in a formal tunic). Obviously, if I'm asking for help >on the Rialto, I'm desperate :{). I'm afraid that what you want is either trivial or impossible. There are two aspects to marriage in about the 12th C, as I recall my reading: the act that actually caused the people to be married, and the stuff people did around that. What actually caused the marriage was a public statement of a present intention of being married. That could be accomplished as simply as joining hands in front of witnesses -- normally including a priest -- and saying something that came down to "I take you for my husband/wife." "Early on" this tended to take place outdoors in front of the church. "Later" it moved inside. I don't recall what dates correspond to "early" and "later". That bit is trivial, and because it is trivial, it will have no more a 12th C flavor than a 20th C one. Then there's what you normally did next: went inside and attended a mass. That's a pre-tridentine Roman Catholic Mass, than which few things are less religiously neutral, and whichwould be nontrivial to get even if one of you were Catholic, and probably impossible if neither of you is. If you want a vague sense of the sorts of things people said and did in the trivial bit, I suggest Gies & Gies, _Marriage and the Family in the Middle Ages_. Like most of the Gies & Gies books, it is shallow, and not the best scholarship, but for what you are looking for, it is probably enough. Cheers, -- Angharad/Terry From: sclark at blues.epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period weddings Date: 14 Jan 1995 00:14:18 GMT Organization: University of Toronto -- EPAS Greetings-- English weddings in this period were two-fold: Part was done outdoors, at the church door, where the groom would publicly announce which portion of his property would be his wife's should he die (this was called "dower property" and was only for the wife's use during her lifetime). Afterwards, they'd go inside for a nuptial mass. If you want to avoid the obviously religious stuff, I think you could make a nice production of announcing your bride's dower rights (which you could make either appropriate to your persona, your modern self, or both--i.e., "she shall have use of the manor at Thorncliffe" if you live on Thorncliffe Park Dr. In lieu of a church door, any archway will do. The actual ceremony could then be a very simple version of the modern marriage service--cutting out the scripture readings, and focusing on the vows. Since at this period, a priest was not technically required to make a marriage valid (it's the only sacrament performed by laymen, and it's valid if even only they know, though not for inheritance purposes), you might wish to say the vows directly to each other, without prompting from the officiating minister/priest. I would say that the presentation to the community afterward would be a vital part of the ceremony as well. Hope this helps! Nicolaa/Susan Canton of Eoforwic sclark at epas.utoronto.ca From: svartorm at netaxs.com (Emil Stecher) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period weddings Date: 16 Jan 1995 05:24:45 GMT Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Joe Bethancourt (locksley at indirect.com) wrote: : David Sanda (everard at netcom.com) wrote: : : I am in need of a little assistance. : : I am going to get married in the near future (June) and we would like a : : vaguely period wedding for England circa 12th century. Unfortunately, I : : have had little luck in my research and less time to do further. We are : : shooting for as religiously neutral as possible (We're not Christian but : : our families are). : The Form of SOLEMNIZATION OF MATRIMONY : Drawn From The Book of Common Prayer of the Church of England : As Promulgated by Elizabeth I, I pray that Master Ioseph will forgive me for disagreeing, but I believe that the ceremony he describes is not at all suitable for Everard's purposes. When my wife and I were to be married we tried to research the form of a medieval civil ceremony, as we are of differing religious backgrounds, and came to much the same conclusions that the most excellent scholars, my ladies Angharad and Nicolaa have already presented. We therefore had the following as our SCA ceremony: The Baron convened his court, and the Herald called upon my lady and me to present ourselves, which we did, along with our families and supporters. The Herald then read the terms of the dowry and bride price.The Baron then inquired of each party whether they were satisfied with the terms, of each of our parents whether they granted their permission, and of my liege lady whether she gave her permission. Once these permissions were given, the Baron pronounced us to be married and signed the Wedding Certificate, as did all the guests. Since this all took place in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, to the best of my understanding, it would constitute a legal marriage as long as at least three of the people who signed the Wedding Certificate would legally acknowledge their signatures (But I wimped out and made her stand up in front of a JP, just to be sure she couldn't get away.) My suggestion, therefore, is to set up something similar, with your Baron or some local pointy hat officiating and a mundane JP who is willing to keep his bit down to "By the power vested in me by the state of...I now pronounce you man and wife". The JP could be called in to court by the Herald and requested by the pointy hat to administer and witness the appropriate oaths in accordance with the laws (Gee, wish I'd thought of this part for my own wedding, instead of hassling with a seperate trip). Or you could save the money for the JP by just doing the deed at Pennsic after obtaining the appropriate license Emil M Stecher svartorm at netaxs.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: rayturne at cln.etc.bc.ca (Raymond Turner) Subject: Re: Period weddings Originator: rayturne at cln Organization: Education Technology Centre of B.C. Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 21:23:44 GMT Just wanted to add my $.02 worth on this topic. My lord is a licensed Anglican (Episcopalian in the US) minister, and has performed weddings both mundanely and in the SCA, and I believe some of the SCA weddings were legally binding (recognized by civi