weddings-msg - 1/10/08

Period and SCA weddings.

NOTE: See also the files: weddings-e-art, p-weddings-bib, wed-FAQ, wed-attire-FAQ, beadwork-msg, silk-msg, p-bibles-msg, religion-msg, herbs-msg.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: CONS.ELF at AIDA.CSD.UU.SE ("]ke Eldberg")
Date: 11 Apr 90 05:21:36 GMT
Organization: Society for Creative Anachronism

Greetings from William de Corbie!

A gentle whose name I have forgotten asked on the net for information about
medieval wedding ceremonies. I am researching that subject, hoping that it
might result in an article for T.I. sometime in the future. Here are a few
items from the material I have gathered.

          Pagan and Medieval wedding rituals - a brief outline
                  Copyright (C) 1990 by Ake Eldberg

There is no such thing as *The* Medieval Roman Catholic wedding ceremony.
Practices varied from country to country and even from see to see. Marriage
is not a Christian invention. When Europe was Christianized, the church had
to deal with a wide variety of local customs formed by other faiths and
traditions Q Celtic, Norse, Latin. The Germanic pagans didn't think of
matrimony as a sacrament. To them, it was a legal contract between two
families. Even a long time after the they had been converted to Chritianity,
it was often difficult to make people understand the need for a Christian
wedding service. 

The "pagan" ceremonies were mostly juridical and only peripherally connected
to religion. The church couldn't simply replace the old rituals with one of
its own. So the church absorbed everything that was not directly contrary to
Christian faith, and incorporated these traditions into its ceremonies.

I will try to describe how a medieval wedding might have been done in
Scandinavia, but you should be aware that local customs may have been
different where your persona comes from. 

Weddings before Christianity

The juridical procedure in Norse society was complicated, but three
ceremonial actions seem to have been necessary to make the marriage
complete:

1. Engagement, which meant that the man and the woman were promised to each
other. This was part of the deal, and economic compensation was necessary
if one side wanted to break the engagement.

2. Wedding, where the bride was formally given to the bridegroom by her
guardian, usually her father. This was done at a feast in the bridegroom's
home. "I give thee my daughter" was the formula spoken by the guardian. 
 
3. Bedding, where the couple went to bed together in the presence of
witnesses. This was not a pornographic "live show"! The witnesses left
before any sexual action began. But the fact that the couple had gone to
bed together was firmly established.

With Christianity came a different perspective. Marriage was now a
sacrament, instituted by God and therefore something that concerned both
church and society outside the two families. Mutual consent was demanded,
and the husband was expected to be faithful. These were new ideas.

Medieval wedding ceremonies

The first part of the ceremony took place outside the church door. At
cathedrals with several entrances, there was usually a designated "bridal
door" for this. The actions done there corresponded to the functions of the
old germanic ceremony. Even though it was now led by a priest, it was
essentially a secular act by which the union of the families was confirmed.

When people had arrived at the church door, the men were placed on the right
side and the women on the left. If the bride was a virgin, her hands were
bare. If she was a widow, she wore gloves. In some countries the most
important parts were conducted in the vernacular, in others everything was
in Latin. In the latter case, the priest would read the words that the bride
and bridegroom were supposed to repeat.

The ceremony at the church door began with the mutual consent of the man
and the woman. The priest asked the man if he would take the woman for his
wife. The man replied "Yes", and then turned to the woman and said: "I
take thee, N. now to be my wife, in the name of the Lord". The same was
then repeated for the woman.

Next, the priest blessed the ring. Only one ring was used, given by the man
to the woman. The ring was sprinkled with holy water, the bridegroom took
the ring and moved it so that it came to be placed in turn on the bride's
thumb, index finger and long finger - where it stayed. This was accompanied
by the priest (or the bridegroom) saying: "In the name of the Father - and
the Son - and the Holy Spirit". Non-Scandinavian rituals have different
wordings and movements, where the ring would end on what we call the ring
finger.

Now the priest would bless the couple, after which the whole party moved
into the church. According to some rituals, the couple held burning candles
in their hands during the procession.

Inside, a "bridal mass" was celebrated. It consisted of prayers, hymns,
bible reading, antiphonals, and culminated in the solemn bridal benediction.
The couple kneeled at the altar and a fine piece of cloth (called a "paell"
in Swedish) was held over them by four unmarried people. The blessing of
the bride included many words from the Old Testament, particularly the
apocryphic book of Tobias. It included wishes that she should be good to
her husband like Rachel, wise like Rebecca, and faithful like Sarah. Let
her be fertile, chaste and innocent, and let them both live to see their
offspring to the third and fourth generation. The bridal benediction is
very old - the first known example is from the 5th century.

After this benediction a mass (communion) followed. The ritual kissing of
the bride belongs here, at the moment of the kiss of peace. The priest
kissed the bridegroom, who kissed the bride, and then the bride passed the
kiss on to the women while an assistant cleric brought it from the priest
to the male side of the church (of course the men were on the south side
and the women on the north side in the nave).

Interestingly enough, the formula "I now pronounce you man and wife" was
not used everywhere. It occurs in late period German and French rituals,
but there is evidence that in older times, the priest left the confirmation
of the marriage to God: "May the God of Abraham, Isac and Jacob unite youI"

Afterwards, in the evening, there was the bedding. The Church adopted this
pagan custom and converted it from a juridical act into a blessing of the
matrimonial bed.

Remember also that medieval wedding gowns were usually not white, as far as
I know.

I hope some of the above may be of use to you. If you want a medieval
wedding, I suggest that you choose such medieval elements that are
compatible with your faith and that are practically feasible, and try to
incorporate them into whatever modern ritual your church is using. Having
parts of the liturgy sung in Latin will help to give you a medieval feeling.

William de Corbie
-------


From: whh at PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Date: 30 Aug 90 23:17:58 GMT
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA

In article <9008291635.AA20875 at well.sf.ca.us>, well!jeannec at APPLE.COM ("Jeanne
C. Stapleton") writes:
 PURGATORIO:  I'd also like to mention, 'cause I didn't see it in Hal's
 Purgatorio report, that Lord Iulstan Sigewealding and his lady, Juturna the
 Musical, both received Leaves of Merit from James and Verena in their final
 court.  Vivat and well deserved!

I think another item about these two has been missed as well.  They were
married at the end of June.  Full blown SCA wedding and feast.  As a very
nice touch for the wedding feast, they got a lot of wooden plates for the
feast and then gifted them to the wedding guests afterwards.

        --Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  415/524-8321 (home)
=======================================================================


From: atterlep at vela.acs.oakland.edu (Eldon F. Zyzyskuzuk)
Date: 12 Nov 90 23:34:06 GMT
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI

In article <29955.273B7965 at stjhmc.fidonet.org> Yves.Fortan
er at f510.n370.z1.fidonet.org (Yves Fortanier) writes:

Good gentles, why are there 'SCA weddings'?  If you've had one or
performed one, what was the purpose?  If like Brian, you don't like
them, why not?  Are they at least tolerable if they're entertaining?

  In my experience with SCA weddings, they're done mainly because, in many 
cases, many or most of the close friends of the couple are Scadians.  Since SCA takes so much of so many people's lives, it seems natural that they would share marriage as they share so much else.  As Baron Kevin recently commented, SCA is a family and a major purpose of the marriage ceremony is to have a family gathering.  

  The most innovative way I ever saw of dealing with a SCA marriage is to make
it into an event.  Two of our group's oldest members (one has been to EVERY 
Pennsic War) were marrying, and so we decided to incorporate their marriage 
into our regular summer event.  The flyers sent out mentioned the "signing of 
the marrige contract" as a major event in the day, and the mundane families of
bride and groom were decked out in garb (which they acquired on their own). 
It was a lot of fun, but a huge amount of work (most of the group, myself
included missed the ceremony because feast began immediately afterward.)  
It made for a nice touch and was definitely a lot of fun.  (And it was period, too!)

              
From: jerbil at nntp-server.caltech.edu (Joseph R. Beckenbach)
Date: 12 Nov 90 19:52:13 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena

Unto the gentles of the Rialto, greetings!

Yves.Fortanier at f510.n370.z1.fidonet.org (Yves Fortanier) writes:

Good gentles, why are there 'SCA weddings'?  If you've had one or
performed one, what was the purpose?  If like Brian, you don't like
them, why not?  Are they at least tolerable if they're entertaining?

        In Caid I have heard of a few, all of which were either The Real
Vows between two members with active SCA families on both sides (and thus
LOTS of SCA friends), or a second ceremony to share the joy with their SCA
friends after having the civil or church ceremony for the non-SCA friends.

        The only related happenings I have witnessed have been 'hand-fastings'
held after Opening Court, which formalized an engagement for the traditional
Scottish 'year and a day'.  Those have all specifically been announced in
Court as being "ten minutes after the end of Court" in a different pavilion
than that of Court, and that people are invited to witness if they chose.
Such hand-fastings usually are quite well witnessed, and not only by
friends of the two principals involved....  A gorgeous little ceremony.

        In service,
                Joseph d'Aquitaine

                  
From: bloch at mandrill.ucsd.edu (Steve Bloch)
Date: 17 Nov 90 02:48:58 GMT

Yves.Fortanier at f510.n370.z1.fidonet.org (Yves Fortanier) writes:
Good gentles, why are there 'SCA weddings'?  If you've had one or
performed one, what was the purpose?  If like Brian, you don't like
them, why not?  Are they at least tolerable if they're entertaining?

A month or two ago two gentles of the Barony were wed.  They scheduled
the 20th-century (I'm hesitant to use "mundane" for a wedding!)
ceremony for 5 PM, the SCA ceremony for 7 PM, and the reception and
semi-potluck feast immediately thereafter.  Both ceremonies were held
at one of our regular event sites, and everyone changed clothes in
between (the couple's non-SCA relatives and guests were provided with
adequate garb).  The whole thing was not an intrusion on an SCA event,
it was effectively an SCA event of its own, though not announced in
Kingdom newsletters.

It is traditional in this Barony for a gentleman to go to the Baron
and Baroness to request permission to court such-and-such lady (unwed
ladies being by assumption wards of Their Excellencies), and after some
months to return to ask Their Excellencies' permission to wed.  This
request is followed by lengthy haggling over brideprice and/or dowry,
after which arrangements for the wedding are made.  The aforementioned
wedding had all this (over the course of a year or two), as well as
some very good-theatre gift-givings, drinking-from-the-same-cup, etc.
culminating in a running jump over a crossed sword and broom.  After
which it was time to eat, and then dance.

This wedding was done very well, and I believe all present (including
the dozens of non-SCA folk) enjoyed it immensely.

-- 
Stephen Bloch
Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib
sca>Caid>Calafia>St.Artemas
bloch at cs.ucsd.edu

                  
From: BERDANJ at YALEVM.BITNET (Amoret of Dragonship Haven)
Date: 29 Jan 91 14:43:03 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Greetings to the Rialto!

In answer to the question of Yaakov HaMizrachi <lawbkwc at buacca.bitnet>
regarding appropriate colors for period wedding attire in Europe and the lands
of Islam:

The modern "white wedding" is a Victorian development (and an upper-class one at that).  In Europe at least, period wedding dress would simply be the best 
outfits the couple had.  While it might have been made specifically for the wedding, it would be expected to serve as their "dress-up" clothes until it
wore out.  No particular color was mandated; whatever is apprpriate in period,
but fancier.  (I.e., peasants would not be dressed in black, since they could
not have gotten the color, etc.)

I am less certain about Muslim dress.  My only suggestion comes from my
viewing of a recent museum exhibit on Saudi costume, which included several
wedding outfits.  They were several different colors; a shocking-pink one
comes to mind.  The common denominator was that all were dripping with as much jewelry and decoration as could be managed.  I would suspect that the
important
part was not color, but how much wealth the bride could manage to show off at
her wedding.  I will gladly be enlightened if someone knows differently.

                                            Amoret of Dragonship Haven
                                              mka Susan de Guardiola


TO: Ravenwing
FROM: Da'ud Al-haqq
SUBJECT: Weddings

-> In the midst of a rare brain-idea collision, Ravenwing said to All:
->
-> RR>"    One of the members of our Barony is planning to do a
-> RR>"13th c British wedding service in late July, but he is
-> RR>"having difficulty locating an authentic period text of the
-> RR>"service.  Can anyone out there help out.  I don't even know
-> RR>"where to send him to try to look something like that up.
.
Britain in the 1200's would probably have confined all of its "gentle"
wedding services to Church liturgy, with Norman overtones to be sure.  The
less-than-gentle services, say those of Northern England or Wales might
have a measure more fun in them, though, with pre-Norman Danelaw and
 Celtic commonfolk traditions involved.
---
 * Origin: Don't be nervous or I'll have you beheaded! (1:135/99)


TO: Cadi
FROM: Da'ud Al-haqq
SUBJECT: Weddings

-> CC>"And so, what would those Celtic commonfolk traditions have
-> CC>"consisted of?

Specifics vary from area to area in the British countryside, from morris
dancing to May poles, all of which are ceremonies for personal fertility
(and weddings are linked to the agricultural fertility ceremonies) as well
as calendar events.  There are songs, dances, and feasts that all have
peculiarities of the villages which performed them.  No single rule
of what they consist of applies to all, but you may wish to research these
in the folklore section of a good college library.
---
 * Origin: Don't be nervous or I'll have you beheaded! (1:135/99)

 
From: dolata at lead.uazaic.arizona.edu (Dolata)
Date: 14 Jul 91 22:15:13 GMT
Organization: University of Arizona AI Chemistry Lab, Tucson, AZ

Dearest Gentles,

        If I may be allowed to insert a comment about tailoring fees;

        In 1982 my Dear Lady and I decided to be wed in Rennaisance fashion.
We hired Dorothy Breen (daughter of Marion Zimmer Bradly) as our seamstress.
We bought the material, and paid her for the immense amout of work necessary
to construct two very authentic Court Dress of the style of the court of
Henry VIII of England.

        At that time the cost was about $500.   Apart from two small problems,
the clothing has served us well and faithfully through the years.  (Problem
#1,  the sleeves on her dress were not 100% correct.  Problem #2,  where DID
these 25 extra pounds come from????)      Over these years we have come to feel
that the fees were modest, and a good investment.   After all,  nowadays I 
spend about 2/3 of that just on a boring 2 piece pin-stripe suit!

        Yes,  the cost of tailoring may seem very high.   But good material 
and good craftsmenship will last,  and if you amortize that over 20 years...  
the cost becomes minimal.

        I hope you receive as good as of value as we did,  and remain

Yours in Service

Thomas Ignatius Perigrinus
Minister of Arts and Sciences           (brewing!  now there's an art I
College of St. Felix                     can support!!!!)


From: BERDANJ at YALEVM.BITNET (Alejandra Mercedes de Rosanegra)
Date: 22 Aug 91 13:08:03 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Greetings to the Rialto and to Alessandra Francesca Chiarmontesi (who has a
nice first name!)

In regards to the query as to information on Italian Renaissance (especially
Venetian) weddings, information on marriage itself in Venice may be found in
both:

_Civic Ritual in Renaissance Venice_ by Edward Muir ISBN 0-691-10200-7
_The Boundaries of Eros_ by Guido Ruggiero ISBN 0-19-505696-5

Among other things, it seems that whether one was actually married or not was
a bit unclear to many, particularly among the lower classes; rather like modern
common-law marriage.

A description of a mid-fifteenth-century Florentine wedding ceremony may be
found in

_Giovanni and Lusanna_ by Gene Brucker ISBN 0-520-06328-7

but it is a description of a somewhat clandestine marriage (and the book
focuses on the resulting "palimony" suit filed by Lusanna against Giovanni.)

Hope this is of assistance!

                                 Alejandra Mercedes de Rosanegra


From: whheydt at PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Date: 22 Oct 91 18:40:17 GMT
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA

In article <9110211929.aa20656 at mc.lcs.mit.edu>, BERDANJ at YALEVM.BITNET (Alejandra) writes:
 Did
 those of you who are attached meet your spouse/whatever through the SCA?  

I met my Lady Wife at the first event I attended.  We were married
about 14 months later at one of the earliest SCA weddings.

        --Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  415/524-8321 (home)


From: samlb at optilink.UUCP (Sam Bassett)
Date: 31 Oct 91 19:13:22 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

From article <29420 at nntpd.lkg.dec.com>, by norteman at tnpubs.enet.dec.com (Karen J. Norteman):
>a large
>scroll describing the particulars of the wedding and balanced with
>lots of space at the bottom for guests' signatures.
 
 I've seen this done a number of times, and made two of them myself for SCAdian
 friends' weddings.  

        And I often do the same thing for weddings I perform -- the official
State of California/local county Marriage Certificates are horrors, so I
usually make the couple a "Wall hanger" in my Fine Italic Hand . . .
-- 
Sam'l Bassett -- System Administrator (among other things)
Work:   DSC, 1310-C Redwood Wy, Petaluma 94975; 1-707-792-7253
Home:   7 Gothic Court, Novato  CA  94947;      1-415-897-7424
UUCP:   uunet!optilink!samlb;  Internet: samlb at well.sf.ca.us


From: mongo at maple.circa.ufl.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Religion in the SCA (long)
Date: 13 Mar 1993 13:58:20 GMT
Organization: Center for Instructional and Research Computing Activities

The more extensive, obvious, and public the
expression, the more uncomfortable I feel.  I'm not sure I have ever been
at a religious ceremony where, at some point, the congregation has not been
asked to pray --- at this point, I have been asked to become a participant,
and I feel very uncomfortable.  If the reason is good enough, I put up with
this discomfort.

I would probably feel different about a religious knighting ceremony where
the congregation was never expected to pray.  (Is this period?  I have no
idea.)  But at all ceremonies I can recall attending, and I believe this
includes the few religious weddings, I was asked, at least implicitly, to
be a participant.  This strikes me as a very different thing than to
associate with those of different beliefs.

	First off, let me say that I'm merely an interested bystander.  I'm
not a member of the SCA (nor do I play one on TV), but I number about a dozen
friends who are, and being a minister, a ex-doctoral history student, a
self-taught herald, and a fair-minded man, I'm often called upon to mediate
disputes...not that that's what I plan to do here, much...

	Being a minister in a very tolerant, non-denominational, NON-CHRISTIAN
religion (of our own local founding, and using vaguely Anglican and RC titles
and phrases to keep the Good Ol' Boys in this town happy), I have been placed
in the position of writing and performing wedding and baptism ceremonies that,
while religious, are non-demoninational.

	For instance, my first parishoner (the first man to actually seriously
introduce me, 22-year-old scruffy earringed baggy-eyed-from-lack-of-sleep lout
that I was, as his minister) is nominally Southern Baptist.  His wife is
Wiccan, after years of being raised as a Seventh-Day Adventist.

	Do you know how HARD it is to write a ceremony that won't offend
anyone?

	But it can be DONE...If anyone's interested, I have the text to both
the "standard" wedding and baptism ceremonies somewhere on disk.  The fact is
that a ceremony doesn't have to be offensive to ANYONE unless you deliberately
go out of your way to find any public display of faith offensive on the grounds
of sheer principle.

	But that's not the belief I've seen expressed in this newsgroup.


From: bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: SCA as Game
Date: Mon, 31 May 93 06:42:37 GMT
Organization: Lethargy Inc.

Payn le Chaunster to Sister Kate, Greetings!

"Subculture" seems to fit the SCA well.  At the same time, and although I'm 
not sure what definitions of religion have surfaced in the Thinkwell 
discussion, I've often thought that heavy involvement with the Society 
fulfils many of the same social, cultural and psychological needs as 
religion.  Perhaps that's because religious groups can be subcultures too.

Which doesn't really lead on to my next point, but hey...  Last year I looked 
into the regulations regarding marriage celebrants in New Zealand, since two 
SCA people were planning a deeply SCA wedding and would have liked an SCA 
celebrant.  There are two classes of marriage celebrants in New Zealand: 
generic civil marriage celebrants (with a huge waiting list to become one), 
and marriage celebrants appointed by one of the groups on the list of 
government-approved groups-which-can-appoint-celebrants.  At present that 
list consists almost entirely of religious denominations, but the wording of 
the relevant Act of Parliament also allows groups with certain sorts of 
<racks memory> cultural and humanitarian aims to apply.  I had a chat to the 
Registrar of Births, Deaths and Marriages about it:  he brought up the group 
option and suggested that the SCA *might* be eligible, and that the only way 
to find out how the Act would be interpreted was to apply.  This potentially-
interesting test-case was stillborn after the betrothed couple worked out 
that they were better off if they didn't legally wed.

It raised some questions for me, though.  Would the SCA be interested in 
being the sort of organisation which could appoint marriage celebrants?  At 
first I was quite enthusiastic about this (every well-equipped group needs a 
celebrant ;-), but then there came a range of niggling doubts.  The initial 
appointment of a group and single celebrant is one thing:  the group's power 
from then on to submit a list of celebrants is quite another, especially in 
light of the drastic changes of personnel to which SCA branches seem prone.  
Then there was the fact that although officially this would be something 
between the New Zealand SCA (which would probably have had to incorporate for 
the purpose) and the New Zealand Government, positions in the local hierarchy 
of would-be celebrant-appointers are subject to the approval of people in  
California.  It had the potential to get Very Messy.

I'm still interested, though, at least in talking about it.  Has anyone else 
looked at the possiblities for this sort of thing?  Is it compatible with the 
aims of the Society?  Would it be desirable?
__________________________________________________________________________
Jennifer Geard                         bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.general.nz
Christchurch, New Zealand


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: SCA as Game
From: bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard)
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 93 22:40:12 GMT
Organization: Lethargy Inc.

Payn to Andrew, Greetings!

[SCA NZ and marriage celebrants]
 > I wonder if this wouldn't destroy the legal standing of the Society in both
 > CA (where it was incorporated as an -educational- organisation) and the US
 > Federal system, where we 'enjoy' a similar status.  Considering the furour
 > currently visible/audible w.r.t. the separation of Church and State in the 
 > US, I think that it might well be a Bad Idea for the US corporation to be 
 > seen as sponsoring a 'religion'.

Some clarifications first:  a New Zealand marriage celebrant is a person 
authorised to conduct legal marriages and do the paperwork for them.  The 
State appoints all marriage celebrants.  As well as warranting individuals as 
civil celebrants, the State warrants groups which then send the State an 
annual list of people they'd like as marriage celebrants for that year.  
Currently all of those groups are religious denominations, but the criteria 
for warranting groups (which involve them promoting either religious beliefs 
or philosophical or humanitarian convictions) would *very probably* cover 
groups such as Greenpeace, Rotary, and even the Diabetes Society.  No-one's 
yet tried it, and there's interest in a test-case. 

The application would be made *not* as a religious group, but as a group 
which promotes certain philosophical convictions (the ideals of courtesy and 
chivalry come to mind), has its own subculture such that it would benefit 
from having a sympathetic person to cater to the needs of the group, and has 
a certain solidity and respectability which never hurts when doing this sort 
of thing.  In Christchurch, where the SCA has done more than a few demo:s for 
Council events, we could put together a reasonable case.

DISCLAIMER:  There are no plans afoot to do this at the moment, and I'm 
talking about it merely because I found the idea intriguing and wondered how 
others saw it.  In order to apply we'd need a local SCA couple who wanted to 
be legally married by an SCA celebrant but were prepared to wait a year, a 
proposed initial celebrant who could get good character references from 
people inside and outside the SCA, "character references" for the SCA in NZ, 
NZ Inc. status or equivalent, and someone nutty enough to take the case 
through. 
 
 > I think it should well be discussed in light of the differences in corporate
 > law between the US (and the People's Republic of California <grin>) and New
 > Zealand.  Perhaps incorporating the SCA there would be suffcient distancing
 > for the American legal entities not to fly up into the bows, but I rather
 > doubt it, given their track records.
 
The SCA would have to be a legal entity in NZ before the procedure even 
began, and NZ legal independence would become an issue.  I strongly doubt 
that anything done by an independent entity (which happened to have a similar 
name) in another country would affect the SCA US, but US law is a mystery to 
me.  

RESTATED DISCLAIMER:  No, we're not planning it at the moment.  I looked into 
it when a couple of friends were planning their wedding, but they decided 
against a legal marriage and I decided the SCA was probably better kept out 
of this sort of thing.

(NB:  I talk about "legal marriage" a lot.  There are reasons, but they're 
probably more relevant to a soc.* group.  I've just been on the phone to the 
Registrar of Births, Deaths, and Marriages (again) who described some of the 
situations where they've helped people put together weddings which are quite 
intentionally *not* legal marriages.  Inter-country anthro.) 
________________________________________________________________________ 
Jennifer Geard                         bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz 
Christchurch, New Zealand 


From: AYLWIN at HOLONET.NET
Subject: Re: SCA as Game
Organization: HoloNet National Internet Access System: 510-704-1058/modem
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1993 08:04:31 GMT

MI>On Cariadoc's third hand, performing marriages is quite clearly outside the
MI>purposes of the SCA, Inc..  In the period which we study, all marriage
MI>ceremonies _were_ religious.  We have chosen to exclude religion from our
MI>official activities.  The only marriage ceremony which could be an
MI>appropriate activity to be sponsored by the SCA would be a period one,
MI>which would be a religious one, which would conflict with our policy
MI>choices.

   I must beg to differ. My Lady and I combined our Society wedding with
our legal one, which was made possible by an old Montana law allowing
two people to marry as long as they get a couple of witnesses together
and have everyone sign a letter to be later filed with the authorities.
No minister, no Justice of the Peace, just some friends who can later
say, "Yep, they went and announced that they was hitched."
   All of this is leading up to the fact that I did a bit of research
into medieval marriage customs, so that we might be historically
accurate in our ceremony. What I found was that weddings evolved over
time.
   In early period, weddings were often strikingly similar to the above
law - the couple announced their vows before friends, and that was that.
A little later, they still wedded before friends, but then went to the
local church to repeat their vows on the building's steps, before the
priest. As time went on, the church ceremony became more important, and
moved into the chapel, while the civil ceremony dropped out of use.
   The preceeding was very quick and rough, and omitted many details.
It does, however, touch on the point that, at least early on, weddings
were not strictly religious affairs.

Sir Aylwin the Flamehaired
Barony of Sentinels' Keep / Artemisia             aylwin at holonet.net
Atenveldt


From: sclark at epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Clark)
Subject: Re: Marrages, Life Events and Re: SCA as Game
Organization: University of Toronto - EPAS
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1993 22:47:13 GMT

Greetings....
	All this talk about marriages makes me remember all that canon
law I play around with.....
	In brief, marriage was (and still is, I think) the only sacrament
performed BY THE PARTICIPANTS.  That's right, marriage is celebrated
by the couple, no priest or no witnesses officially needed.  Now, both
Church and secular officials came to frown on clandestine marriages, mostly
because of inhetance and legitimacy issues, so gradually mostly
civil and a few church strictures were applied to marriages so as to
encourage public ceremonies done before a priest.
	As to how to do "real" marriages in the SCA, I have met many a couple
who have had two or three ceremonies for different groups of people.  One
thing I discovered while preparing to get hitched myself was that in
Ontario,a civil ceremony may only be held in a judge's chambers, thus
necessitating some sort of religious offical (even if they do a
generic, non-sectarian ceremony) if the wedding is held anywhere else.
Now the group of folks who can perform these ceremonies is quite wide
(it includes, for instance, the Wiccan Church of Canada)....but still, this
could really restrict anyone wanting to have an SCA wedding and still
observe the no relgious ceremonies thing....however, almost every SCAdian
I have met who has had a garbed wedding has done it as a PRIVATE event
(albeit one where herds of SCA folk are invited and where the format is
nearly indistinguishable from an SCA event)

Regards
Nicolaa de Bracton of Leicester
sclark at epas.utoronto.ca
Susan Carroll-Clark


From: hjfeld at acs2.bu.edu (harold feld)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA as Game
Date: 8 Jun 93 18:22:10 GMT
Organization: Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

In article <1uvtsd$qim at usenet.pa.dec.com>, haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock) writes:
|> 
|> Greetings from Fiacha,
|> 
|> Tadhg says 
|> 
|> > Actually, you were correct: all marriage ceremonies *were* religious,
|> > although not necessarily under the purview of the Christian church;...
|> 
|> I can accept this only if you admit that certain cultures allowed, if not
|> encouraged, cohabitation for the purpose of raising children without a need
|> for the partners to be 'married' in a religious sense.
|> 
|> As far as I can tell, the Irish were such a culture. 
|> 
|> 	Fiacha

There is also the rather difficult problem of distinguishing between the
legal and religious consequences of marraige.

for example: In Medieval England, after primogeniture became the mandatory
law of inheritance, the question of whether a legal marraige took place
or not was crucial.  Now, while inhereitance was determined at law
in the Court of Common Pleas, the determination of marraige could
*only* be made by the local ecclesiastical court.  Nevertheless, certain
questions (such as matters of consanguinuity or whether the factual
pattern of a marraige or ravishment had taken place) where held to be 
legal matters determined by putting the "question to the country" (trial
by jury).
So, assume Adam has a son, Fulk, by Matilda.  Adam then has
another son, John, by Elizabeth.  On the death of Adam, both claim
the estate.  Fulk claims to take by primogeniture, by John claims that
Matilda and Adam were consaguinous, and therefore the original marraige
to Matilda was void and Fulk is a bastard.  John claims consaguinity
because Matilda's sister, Anne, slept with Adam's brother, Arthur.

Now, the Jury determines whether the fact pattern claimed by John
is true (assuming Fulk issues a general denial, which I'll assume
he does or things start to get a little complicated. :-)).  If
the jury decide that John is telling the truth, the case
then goes to the Ecclesiastical court to determine if such a relationship is
consanguinous and makes a legal determination whether Fulk is a bastard.
(It is unclear whether the change in court allows Fulk to re-argue the
facts found by the Jury.  By Elizabethan, times, its clear the answer
is "no", and would result in a writ of error against the church court).
If the ecclesiastic court finds consanguinuity, then the case
goes back to common pleas on the question of whether Fulk can inhereit
(answer: no, but we need to enter it as an official verdict).

My point?  The modern concept of "marraige" is complicated, having
both religious and secular consequences.  In discussing what various
cultures did or did not recognize as marraige, it is important to
state how you mean the question.   

In Service,
Mar Yaakov


Subject: Re: period wedding
From: Linda Peck, lspeck at indirect.COM
Date: 11 Aug 1993 05:09:11 -0400
In article <9308110907.AA03603 at indirect.com> Linda Peck, lspeck at indirect.COM writes:
LIBLBM at orion.DEpaul.EDU (MURPHY LORI) writes:
>: Does anyone know of any books that contain information on middle
>: eastern weddings?  I/we want to renew our vows and want to do it
>: in a period middle eastern style.  So far, I have only found
>: small references to henna that the bride applied the night before.
>: Any information will be greatly appreciated.  Thanks in advance.
>: Sahar
 
Ardelys responded:
 
>I don't know if this was done in period or not, but there are a number
>of current Muslim wedding practices that include the bride having
>intricate designs painted in henna on her hands and feet the night
before the wedding.  [...]
 
At the last Estrella, I had the pleasure of being invited to one of these
parties, in period or course. The idea was to paint the brides hands and
those of any participant available. Also there was refreshments (it is
customary for the women to make a big deal of any gathering, especially
this one) and stories of how to treat the new husband as relates to money.
(usually in the form of gold-modern-or silver-period), work, and of course
fathfulness. - Please understand that the bride and groom were doing a
pretend wedding therefore this was a pretend party, but that didn't stop
the gossip or suggestions. - The party was a blast. It was held in the
afternoon before the wedding. The wedding BTW was a 12th century shepardic
recreation. Very well researched and performed. 
 
If you are going to Pensic find the current Queen of the Outlands,
Elisheva. It was her head Lady in waiting who put on this party, she will
be there as well. If you do find HM Elisheva give her a hug from Rhianwen.
Wish I could go too.

Oh yes. There was another tradition used at this party. I believe it was
Turkish. A silver coin was placed in right (i believe) palm of the bride.
It was covered with henna . . .lots of henna. Then wrapped so the hand was
covered. The next morning when the hand was un wrapped if the coin had
left a mark (IOW a white spot in the middle of a red blob) then the bride
would be prosperious otherwise, not. There was a white spot in the
dark red blob. For weeks on end. Imagine explaining that to
your boss.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Rhianwen


Subject: Re: period wedding
From: Ed Kreyling 6966, kreyling at lds.loral.com
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1993 13:15:48 GMT
In article <1993Aug11.131548.18254 at lds.loral.com> Ed Kreyling 6966, 

kreyling at lds.loral.com writes:
In article <9308110907.AA03603 at indirect.com> lspeck at indirect.COM (Linda Peck) writes:
>LIBLBM at orion.DEpaul.EDU (MURPHY LORI) writes:
>>: Does anyone know of any books that contain information on middle
>>: eastern weddings?  I/we want to renew our vows and want to do it
>>: in a period middle eastern style.  So far, I have only found
>>: small references to henna that the bride applied the night before.
>>: Any information will be greatly appreciated.  Thanks in advance.
>>: Sahar 

Greetings Lori,

My wife's apprentice has done extensive research in Middle Eastern customs.
She was gratious enough to give me a large list of references which I could
upload later but for now she said that the following two sources were the 
best for what you want:

COMBS-SHILLING,M.E.  "SACRED PERFORMANCES: ISLAM,SEXUALITY, AND SACRIFICE"
Columbia University Press, N.Y. 1989 (ISBN: 0231 06974-x-1989)
Chapters 6,10,11,13,15.

KANAFANI, "AESTHETICS AND RITUALS IN THE UNITED ARAB EMIRATES,"
rest of bio unavailable as she only has copies of sections of the book.

I hope this is of some help.

Erik.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Kreyling			| Master Erik of Telemark O.L.,O.P.
kreyling at world.lds.loral.com	| Shire of Brineside Moor
Sarasota,Fl. USA  		| Kingdom of Trimaris, SCA
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: AYLWIN at HOLONET.NET
Subject: Re: Ceremonies in the SCA
Organization: HoloNet National Internet Access System: 510-704-1058/modem
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 08:19:22 GMT

BO>[It's been argued that 'secular' weddings are okay.  IMHO, the nature of a
BO>'wedding is just too deeply involved in religious rites to ever divorce the
BO>two... :^) ]

   For what it's worth, my Lady and I held our legal wedding as an SCA
event. There was no mention of any religion or higher powers, and
involved the current Prince and Princess joining us in wedlock (such
things are legal in Montana). We modeled everything, near as we could,
upon secular ceremonies that were originally held in addition to the
church ceremony.
   What worked for us, though, won't work for everyone.

Sir Aylwin the Flamehaired
Barony of Sentinels' Keep / Artemisia              aylwin at holonet.net
Atenveldt


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: waltz at mprgate.mpr.ca (Marina Waltz)
Subject: Re: period wedding
Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 20:55:06 GMT

LIBLBM at orion.DEpaul.EDU (MURPHY LORI) writes:
: Does anyone know of any books that contain information on middle
: eastern weddings?  I/we want to renew our vows and want to do it
: in a period middle eastern style.  So far, I have only found
: small references to henna that the bride applied the night before.
: Any information will be greatly appreciated.  Thanks in advance.
: Sahar

I don't know if this was done in period or not, but there are a number
of current Muslim wedding practices that include the bride having
intricate designs painted in henna on her hands and feet the night
before the wedding.  The bride's friends frequently paint one of their
own palms or another friend's also.  I have participated in these
night-before evenings on three occasions and they are a great deal of
fun.  It is usually a professional woman who comes in and paints the
bride's hands and feet, and the designs are really beautiful.  

The henna is mixed with water and lemon juice, and is applied with
something like a cake decorator for making fine lines.  The bride's
friends usually use toothpicks to paint their designs.  A solution of
lemon and sugar and some clove oil is frequently patted onto the henna
to help it stick to the hands (it flakes off quite easily once it is
dry).  The participants go to sleep without washing the henna patterns
off if they want the designs to last for awhile.  The patterns are
usually visible from one to two weeks afterwards.

I don't know if this information is any help to you or not, but if
you are looking through books and see pictures of women with fancy
patterns on their hands and feet, you'll know that they are newleyweds,
and that patterning was done back then.

If you decide to go ahead with this I'm sure you'll really enjoy it - it
was lots of fun.  (On another note - Many of the women I used to work
with were Indian, but our boss wasn't.  She hated it whenever any of
them got married.  She used to say it looked like we had a palmful of
worms.  As they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.)

Regards,
Ardelys


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Asking for a lady's hand.
From: bettina.helms at channel1.com (Bettina Helms)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 93 21:34:00 -0500
Organization: Channel 1(R) * 617-864-0100 Info * 617-354-7077 Modem

MA>   A question has arisen as to the proper way to ask for
MA>a lady's hand.  Prior to asking the lady for her hand,
MA>does the suitor need her baron's leave to ask the lady?
MA>Further if she is a member of a House, does the suitor
MA>need the leave of the head of the House?  If the
MA>permission of both the baron and the head of the House
MA>are needed, which gentle is asked of first?

Different places, situations and personas, different customs. In the
East, the local Baron (if there is one) is at most requested to give the
pair his official blessing after all other permissions (including the
lady's) are obtained. Am not sure what the situation is regarding
households, and it may differ even from one Household to the next - so
you may as well start by discussing with the head of the Household what
formalities are involved.

If the lady's persona is early Norse or early Celt, you ask *her* first,
and anyone else involved *after* she has agreed to your suit!

-- Katja, who is a person in her own right and no man's chattel! :-)


From: David Friedman <NetID at cornell.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Asking for a lady's hand...
Date: 19 Sep 1993 15:16:07 GMT
Organization: Cornell University

Mark writes:
>   A question has arisen as to the proper way to ask for 
>a lady's hand.  Prior to asking the lady for her hand, 
>does the suitor need her baron's leave to ask the lady?
>Further if she is a member of a House, does the suitor 
>need the leave of the head of the House?  If the 
>permission of both the baron and the head of the House
>are needed, which gentle is asked of first?

I think in principle the person whose permission you must ask
is her father or, failing that, her guardian. In period, wardship was an important matter. When Henry II wanted to
express his appreciation for William the Marshall's services,
he did so by promising him the wardship of Isabel of Pembroke,
daughter and Heiress of the Earl of Pembroke and (through her
grandfather, Dermot) heiress to about a quarter of Ireland.
Henry died, Richard acted on the promise, and William promptly
married Isabel, converting himself from an almost landless
knight to one of the wealthiest and most powerful barons in
England.

So you should first find out whose ward she is, then ask him.
I'm sure the gentlemen who married my last three wards must
have done so, but at my age memory is not entirely reliable.
I'll have to make sure next time.

David/Cariadoc


From: pyotr at halcyon.com (Peter D. Hampe)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Minister seeks help for medieval-style wedding
Date: 4 Oct 1993 18:55:51 -0700
Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc.

 I missed the first post but ...

HH>   I'm posting this request on behalf of a Unitarian minister who
HH> is stuck out in the middle of Illinois. She has been asked to
HH> devise and officiate at a wedding ceremony for two SCA members
HH> with 11th - 12th century medieval European personae. They wish
HH> to have a "medieval style" wedding suitable for their period. The
HH> minister is at a loss for sources for such a ceremony, so I'm
HH> asking in probably the most likely newsgroup! Any help would
HH> be appreciated.

The quick and dirty way is to find a Book of Common Prayer
(pre 1551 ed, the 1549 is deemed to be borderline 'suspect'
it says 'ere. :-) )  And go from there - the rubrics
hadn't been changed that much from Roman PRactice. So you can
do a rather straight wing it.

Of course, a Unitarian might have trouble with a Trinitarian
source book, but that's life.  Customs surounding the nuptial 
mass varied from town to town - that's going to be a harder
trick to pull off.

good louck and good fortune.
chus
pyotr
-- 
pyotr at halcyon.com  Pyotr Filipivich, sometimes Owl.


From: Caitlin.Nic.Raighne at f350.n280.z1.fidonet.org (Caitlin Nic Raighne)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Politics and Weddings and such
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1993 23:18:00 -0500

RL> My Lady is a Lombard Circa 1200, I am a Late Celt/Early Scots
RL> persona.
RL> we were considering doing the celebration in early Tudor, or
RL> perhaps in
RL> 14-15 century houplands (excuse spelling please).

RL> Come on, hasn't ANYBODY ever done and SCA wedding?

My lord husband and I had an SCA wedding last summer (1992) to commemorate our
20th wedding anniversary.  We had a late 15th century Scottish Highland
wedding.  The Shire made it a kingdom event.  There was a tournament of love
earlier in the day, and A&S competition with a Celtic theme, and a feast of
three removes for 100 people.  Since the Prince and Princess were in
attendance, a court with the wedding ceremony performed before them.  Our
local Seneschal was the officiator.

    The ceremony consisted of Anlon's "clan leader" (a friend who agreed to
dress and act the part) leading he and his assistants into the court.  The
assistants were carrying his bride price which consisted of bolts of material,
spices, bottles of mead, a shepherd to refer to his herd of sheep, and a bag
of "gold".  (He has a merchant persona).  Then the "clan leader" and his wife       (my father and mother) entered leading me and my assistants who were carrying my
dowry.  It consisted of hand made quilts, baskets of homemade bread, a loom, a
person to refer to the marvelous horse I brought to the household, ownership
of a parcel of land in far off Meridies, and our then 16 year old son to prove my ability to produce a male heir! (We wanted to involve him in the ceremony in
some way and this seemed a good way to do it!)  Baron Charles basically based
the ceremony on the Brehon laws of handfasting.  There is a beautiful scroll
that Baroness Graidhne ni Ruaidh calliged and illumined.  The reading of it
was basically the entire ceremony.  If you like I can give the text in a later
message.

    I made all the garb for Anlon, Seamus and myself as well as for my parents
 since they are not SCA.  I wore a Tudor dress in light green velvet with the
 turned back sleeves lined in light green damask.  Anlon wore a kilt and a
 doublet made of the same damask.  His Tudor shirt was silk.  Seamus wore a
 Tudor silk shirt, kilt and a leather doublet.  My father wore trews and a
 cotton Tudor shirt with a brat brooched on one shoulder.  (There was no way
 her would wear a kilt!).  My mother wore a dress with a Spanish Surcoat over
 it.  I know it wasn't exactly the same period but since she wears the same
 size I do, and she's not in the SCA, I made something else I wanted to own!
    This ceremony was a lot of work but it was a whole lot of fun for not only
 us but everyone who attended.  We had about 150 people in attendance.  Not bad
 for an event that was solely based on the wedding of two relative un-knowns in
 our kingdom!  Oh yes, I forgot to mention that the winner of the tournament
 received a chainmail hauberk that was made and donated by a member of our
 shire.  My son, Seamus made the site tokens.  They were cast pewter celtic
 crosses.  He made 175 and those we didn't give away on site I have since given
 away as gifts.  I still get comments about those sight tokens.

    Forgive the rambling note.  I hope some of this is helpful.  I enjoyed the
 remembrance of a wonderful day.  None of this could have been done without the
 help of an exceptionally helpful and hardworking shire!

Beannachd leibh,
Ly Caitlin nic Raighne
Chatelaine, Shire of Dun Ard, Calontir


From: Karen.Moon at f555.n387.z1.fidonet.org (Karen Moon)
Date: 07 Jun 94 19:14:00 -0500
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Norse Weddings
Organization: Fidonet: Cygnus I.I.N. / San Antonio, TX / 210-641-2063 

Good Lady,
I have participated in two weekend long Norse weddings in my group.  
The research was done in the main by HL Gunnora Hallakarva, who is at 
the moment engaged in putting this info in book form to be published 
hopefully this year.  She is always glad to share her information.  The 
ceremony she has reconstructed works quite well (each time was a bit 
different but both were neat).  If you will be so kind as to send me 
your Snail Mail address, I'll have her send you the info.  If you can't 
get me on E-mail -- this is an echo I'm getting -- send your address w/ 
(with a letter reminding me who you are *smile*) to Mari, 2935 
Nacogdoches Rd #217, San Antonio, TX, 78217.
Yours,
Mari ferch Rathtyen
---------
Fidonet:  Karen Moon 1:387/555
Internet: Karen.Moon at f555.n387.z1.fidonet.org


From: ifdz176 at utxsvs.cc.utexas.edu (Amanda Shields- Queen of the Smurfs)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Wedding advice
Date: Fri, 09 Sep 1994 18:58:25 -0600
Organization: University of Texas at Austin

In article <34q3cl$r10 at search01.news.aol.com>, rhiannon5 at aol.com
(Rhiannon5) wrote:

> My finace and I are planning a period outdoor wedding, and are looking for
> information on a suitable ceremony.  Any help would be appreciated.  
> 
> Rhiannon ne BrennenDate: Fri, 09 Sep 1994 18:16:29 -0600
From: ifdz176 at utxsvs.cc.utexas.edu (Amanda Shields- Queen of the Smurfs)
Subject: Re: Period Wedding advice
Organization: University of Texas at Austin

In article <34q3cl$r10 at search01.news.aol.com>, you wrote:
Gee, I just happened to have run across the perfect book in the library on
customs regarding births, marriages, and death. I do not have it with me at
the moment, but I can give you the gist of what I can remember it having
said. 

The wedding gown need not necessarily be white. That custom got started
around the eighteenth century (in other words, OOP). The wedding dress was
much like a court dress (but as fancy a court dress as one could afford),
except it had a train. The maid of honor would bear this train.

The less popular wedding headgear was the headgear of the period. What was
the more popular wedding headgear was letting one's hair go long, and
wearing a crown on top of it. Anne Boelyn's (?) wedding crown had sprigs of
fresh rosemary in it. NOTE: During the time period when hennins were in
fashion, and women tended to shave their heads, the woman wore her hennin,
not a baldie-shine and a crown :) )

The groom would wear what amounts to his best court gear (all new, of
course), but again, this is the absolute finest stuff he owns. Best
embroidery, gem-studded, the whole schmeer on both the bride's and the
groom's outfits.

From all the stuff running around from the time that guy found that
medieval gay wedding ceremony a few months back, it was said weddings would
take place on the steps of the church, possibly with a celebration of the
Eucharist afterwards (I do not know your religious affiliation)

During Elizabethan times, the wedding ring would be worn on the thumb. All
other time periods show the wedding ring in its more traditional position,
or even on the right hand.

Poesy Rings (plain bands with some sort of love poem inscribed on the
inside) were popular as wedding rings in the sixteenth century. Also, James
Avery has a replica of Martin Luther's wedding ring in both silver and
gold, for both men and women. If you don't have a ring yet, y'all should
check this out.

This is all I can remember for now, but if you would like to e-mail me for
more details, the address is ifdz176 at utxsvs.cc.utexas.edu

I hope I have been of some help to you. Congratulations, and good luck!

 Anagret (or Anne Margarethe-whatever the Heralds will pass) von Bayern


From: archmonk at news.gate.net (John W. Missing)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Wedding advice
Date: 25 Sep 1994 06:42:05 -0400

Subject: Re: Period Wedding advice

M'Lady,
It is good to hear from you again.
R>In article <199409201849.OAA63102 at hopi.gate.net>, archmonk at gate.NET
R>writes:

R>::I must ask a few questions to be able to answer your question properly.
R>::Is this to be a real (legal) wedding?  Precisely what period (there is
R>::quite a difference between 7th Century and 17th Century)?  What are the
R>::nationalities of the personae?  Finally and very importantly, what
R>::religion?

R>It will be a legal wedding. We are looking at a time period between 11th
R>and 14th centuries.  We are both of Celtic personae.  And I'm pagan and
R>he's ex-catholic.  Thanks for the help.
Are these the religions of your personae? Or your mundane ones as well?
If you have a Catholic service (and in your period it was not unusual
for a pagan to have a public church wedding and a very secretive pagan
ritual) , the Nuptial Mass hasn't changed significantly from the 12th
or 13th century up to Vatican II, but you should have a priest if it is
to include Mass. However, if it is the wedding only, in most states it
would be valid as long as any cleric or notary performs the service.  If
on the other hand you want a pagan service, I'm sure there are
knowledgeable pagans who could supply the service and even perform it.
However, in some states they might have to be a notary or otherwise
certified for it to be valid.  If you have trouble locating the service
you want, I can probably locate it for you. I'll have to leave it to you
to find an officiant.

Blessings.
Œ sinful monk Diormid, priest. rka Father Joseph mka John Missing Œ

R>Rhiannon ne Brennen
---                                                                         


From: greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period weddings
Date: 13 Jan 1995 10:56:46 -0500
Organization: Guest of MIT AI and LCS labs

Greetings to all, from  Angharad ver' Rhuawn.

Everard asks,

>I am going to get married in the near future (June) and we would like a 
>vaguely period wedding for England circa 12th century.  Unfortunately, I 
>have had little luck in my research and less time to do further.  We are 
>shooting for as religiously neutral as possible (We're not Christian but 
>our families are).  It's going to be outdoors and casual (at least the 
>guests-I'll be in a formal tunic).  Obviously, if I'm asking for help 
>on the Rialto, I'm desperate :{).

I'm afraid that what you want is either trivial or impossible.  There
are two aspects to marriage in about the 12th C, as I recall my reading:
the act that actually caused the people to be married, and the stuff
people did around that.

What actually caused the marriage was a public statement of a present
intention of being married.  That could be accomplished as simply as
joining hands in front of witnesses -- normally including a priest --
and saying something that came down to "I take you for my husband/wife."
"Early on" this tended to take place outdoors in front of the church.
"Later" it moved inside.  I don't recall what dates correspond to "early"
and "later".

That bit is trivial, and because it is trivial, it will have no more a
12th C flavor than a 20th C one.

Then there's what you normally did next: went inside and attended a
mass.  That's a pre-tridentine Roman Catholic Mass, than which few
things are less religiously neutral, and whichwould be nontrivial
to get even if one of you were Catholic, and probably impossible if
neither of you is.

If you want a vague sense of the sorts of things people said and did
in the trivial bit, I suggest Gies & Gies, _Marriage and the Family
in the Middle Ages_.  Like most of the Gies & Gies books, it is
shallow, and not the best scholarship, but for what you are looking
for, it is probably enough.

Cheers,

-- Angharad/Terry


From: sclark at blues.epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period weddings
Date: 14 Jan 1995 00:14:18 GMT
Organization: University of Toronto -- EPAS

Greetings--
	English weddings in this period were two-fold:  Part was done
outdoors, at the church door, where the groom would publicly announce
which portion of his property would be his wife's should he die (this
was called "dower property" and was only for the wife's use during
her lifetime).  Afterwards, they'd go inside for a nuptial mass.
If you want to avoid the obviously religious stuff, I think you could
make a nice production of announcing your bride's dower rights (which
you could make either appropriate to your persona, your modern self,
or both--i.e., "she shall have use of the manor at Thorncliffe"  if
you live on Thorncliffe Park Dr.  In lieu of a church door, any
archway will do.  The actual ceremony could then be a very simple
version of the modern marriage service--cutting out the scripture
readings, and focusing on the vows.  Since at this period, a priest
was not technically required to make a marriage valid (it's the
only sacrament performed by laymen, and it's valid if even only
they know, though not for inheritance purposes), you might wish
to say the vows directly to each other, without prompting from
the officiating minister/priest.  I would say that the presentation
to the community afterward would be a vital part of the ceremony
as well.

Hope this helps!
Nicolaa/Susan
Canton of Eoforwic
sclark at epas.utoronto.ca


From: svartorm at netaxs.com (Emil Stecher)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period weddings
Date: 16 Jan 1995 05:24:45 GMT
Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts

Joe Bethancourt (locksley at indirect.com) wrote:
: David Sanda (everard at netcom.com) wrote:
: : I am in need of a little assistance.

: : I am going to get married in the near future (June) and we would like a 
: : vaguely period wedding for England circa 12th century.  Unfortunately, I 
: : have had little luck in my research and less time to do further.  We are 
: : shooting for as religiously neutral as possible (We're not Christian but 
: : our families are).  
:                The Form of SOLEMNIZATION OF MATRIMONY

:     Drawn From The Book of Common Prayer of the Church of England

:                  As Promulgated by Elizabeth I,

         I pray that Master Ioseph will forgive me for disagreeing, but I
believe that the ceremony he describes is not at all suitable for 
Everard's purposes.
         When my wife and I were to be married we tried to research the form
of a medieval civil ceremony, as we are of differing religious 
backgrounds, and came to much the same conclusions  that the most 
excellent scholars, my ladies Angharad and Nicolaa have already presented.
         We therefore had the following as our SCA ceremony: The Baron 
convened his court, and the Herald called upon my lady and me to present
ourselves, which we did, along with our families and supporters. The Herald
then read the terms of the dowry and bride price.The Baron then inquired of
each party whether they were satisfied with the terms, of each of our parents
whether they granted their permission, and of my liege lady whether she gave
her permission. Once these permissions were given, the Baron pronounced 
us to be married and signed the Wedding Certificate, as did all the guests.
        Since this all took place in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, to the
best of my understanding, it would constitute a legal marriage as long as 
at least three of the people who signed the Wedding Certificate would legally
acknowledge their signatures (But I wimped out and made her stand up in 
front of a JP, just to be sure she couldn't get away.)
        My suggestion, therefore, is to set up something similar, with your
Baron or some local pointy hat officiating and a mundane JP who is willing
to keep his bit down to "By the power vested in me by the state of...I 
now pronounce you man and wife". The JP could be called in to court by 
the Herald and requested by the pointy hat to administer and witness
the appropriate oaths in accordance with the laws (Gee, wish I'd thought
of this part for my own wedding, instead of hassling with a seperate trip).
Or you could save the money for the JP by just doing the deed at Pennsic
after obtaining the appropriate license  
                                 Emil M Stecher
                               svartorm at netaxs.com
                                     
                                            
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: rayturne at cln.etc.bc.ca (Raymond Turner)
Subject: Re: Period weddings
Originator: rayturne at cln
Organization: Education Technology Centre of B.C.
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 21:23:44 GMT


Just wanted to add my $.02 worth on this topic. My lord is a
licensed Anglican (Episcopalian in the US) minister, and has
performed weddings both mundanely and in the SCA, and I believe
some of the SCA weddings were legally binding (recognized by civil
law). Anyway, my understanding has been for a long time that the 
Church did not need to be involved in marriage, as it was
considered to be a civil matter, more to do with property and
inheritance than anything else. This was true up until late in
our period. SOme folk chose to be married in the church, but many
did not.
I just finished reading the Six Wives of Henry VIII by Alison Weir,
which I believe was well-researched and documented (not my field,
so I can't say for sure) and she was very specific that even in
Henry's time, marraige was considered a private matter, and was
primarily civil rather than religious. The choice of ceremony
would therefore be up to the individuals concerned. The betrothal
was the big thing, with the actual nuptials merely a followup.
This said, I would venture to guess that during the 12th century,
the average couple would have any ceremony that felt right to
them and their families (usually the declaration of dower, or a
reading of the betrothal or nuptial agrement), even to the 
almost-legendary jumping over a broomstick, followed by a mass,
and of course by a party.
My lord, whose persona is 15th-16th century Scots-English, and
I, who am tenth century Welsh, chose as our SCA service to be
handfasted by a pagan friend of ours. As my lord is Christian, and
I'm a Baha'i (totally non-period!), and we'd had both of those 
mundanely, we felt this was the best and most historically
plausible compromise. Friends of ours told us later that they'd
used virtually the same ceremony in their SCA wedding, and they 
are mundanely very devout Anglicans with a decided pre-Reformation
bent.
BTW, the service my lord uses for SCA weddings is taken from the 
prayerbook of Edward VI, a bit earlier than ELizabeth I, but
identical in most respects to the Book of Common Prayer. If he
celebrates the Eucharist (privately, of course!) at events, he 
uses a version of the Celtic Canon from before the split 
between Rome and England.
Hope this helps, and doesn't confuse matters more!
In service,
Olwen Pen Aur, AoA
Shire of Appledore, Kingdom of An Tir


From: greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period weddings
Date: 16 Jan 1995 20:14:13 -0500
Organization: Guest of MIT AI and LCS labs

Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.

Olwen pen Aur writes,

>      Anyway, my understanding has been for a long time that the 
>Church did not need to be involved in marriage, as it was
>considered to be a civil matter, more to do with property and
>inheritance than anything else. This was true up until late in
>our period. SOme folk chose to be married in the church, but many
>did not.
>I just finished reading the Six Wives of Henry VIII by Alison Weir,
>which I believe was well-researched and documented (not my field,
>so I can't say for sure) and she was very specific that even in
>Henry's time, marraige was considered a private matter, and was
>primarily civil rather than religious. The choice of ceremony
>would therefore be up to the individuals concerned. The betrothal
>was the big thing, with the actual nuptials merely a followup.

I believe that you have confused two separate issues: the reasons
why people married, and what constituted a legal marriage.  Your
remarks are true of the former; but it is the latter that determines
the structure of marriage ceremonies.  

Had the _legal_ issue been primarily civil, Henry's life would 
have been _immensely_ simplified, divorcing Katharine (and for 
that matter, Anne later) would have been trivialized, and England 
would never have broken with Rome.  

(BTW, even _Henry_ didn't think the legal issue should be civil: 
he agreed with the Catholic Church that marriage was a sacrament, 
and that the dissolution of a marriage required a cause recognized 
in religious doctrine.  He just thought that he'd found good 
enough causes, and that the Pope shouldn't stand in his way.  Not 
an entirely consistent man....)

People _contracted_ marriages for reasons of property and inheritance,
and viewed what was behind the marriage, and what went on in it,
as private.  From the point of view of families forming alliances, 
what you say about the emphasis on betrothal is correct.  But 
ultimately, the betrothal is worthless without a legally valid 
wedding, and in that matter, the Church _did_ play a central role.
From _very_ early in period, the absolute arbiter of what 
constituted a valid marriage was the Church.  

Now, the Church always held that the essence of marriage was consent,
and in that sense, a priest was not necessary.  But for a number of
reasons (one of them being that the Church was called upon, from 
time to time, to assess the validity of existing marriages, usually in
royal cases where a king wanted to dump a wife, and it was very
hard to do this with any semblance of validity unless there were
witnesses), the Church began to require public witnesses on its
behalf, and to move toward the requirement that a priest to be 
present and the marriage be formally acknowledged and recorded.

Hence what you say next:

>This said, I would venture to guess that during the 12th century,
>the average couple would have any ceremony that felt right to
>them and their families (usually the declaration of dower, or a
>reading of the betrothal or nuptial agrement), even to the 
>almost-legendary jumping over a broomstick, followed by a mass,
>and of course by a party.

is simply not so.  What they did had to satisfy the Church's
requirements of the time, and in particular, had to satisfy the
Church's witness that the requirement of serious present intent
was fulfilled.

Also, even today, tradition plays a tremendous role in setting
ceremony; and in the middle ages, there is every evidence that
it did so more, since religious conformity (denial of which
is the basis for a huge percentage of modern variations) was
the overwhelming rule.

Finally, the SCA normally assumes that its members are upper
class.  In the High Middle Ages, there are upper class Jews
and Muslims as well as Christians in parts of Europe at various
times.  One might on rare occasion even find someone who 
professed himself openly to be atheist.  But by that point, 
there are _no_ openly admitted upper class pagans in Europe.  
_All_ members of the upper classes paid at least lip service 
to one of the major religions.  Hence any rite that smacks
of paganism is not only unlikely to be acceptable to the Church's
witness, but it is also unlikely to have been acceptable to 
any of the participants, let alone the guests.

So far as I am concerned, people can get married any way they 
want to, and they should certainly feel free to satisfy their
personal religious preferences.  However, they should realize
that if those preferences do not fit the mold of Christianity,
Judaism, or Islam, then they are not compatible with the wedding
practices of 12th C Europe, and the choice to get married in that
fashion rules out a ceremony that is appropriate to that time
and place.

-- Angharad/Terry


From: CARMEN.BOYLES at rook.wa.com (carmen boyles)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period weddings
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 1995 04:33:11 GMT
Organization: Knight-Line! (206) 565-0594

 Ar> |-------------------------------------|
 Ar> All that I see here is one person's opinion.
 Ar> + sinful monk Diormid, priest. rka Father Joseph mka John Missing +
 Ar> (archmonk at gate.net)

there are several books by georges duby on the subject of medieval marriage,
i only have one of them with me now.  it's title is "medieval marriage, two
models from 12th century france".  another is called <i believe> "the knight,
the priest, and the lady".  both of these, and several others he has written,
deal with the church's reluctance to become involved with the act of marriage.
it is not 'one person's opinion'.

melusine d'argent


From: michael.mccollum at dazed.charleston.sc.us (Michael Mccollum) 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: RE: PERIOD WEDDINGS
Date: 21 Jan 95 17:14:00 GMT
Organization: Dazed & Confused BBS - Ladson, SC - 803.873.5797

Hiya David,

DS> I am going to get married in the near future (June) and we would like
DS> a  vaguely period wedding for England circa 12th century. 
DS> Unfortunately, I  have had little luck in my research and less time to
DS> do further.

I did some research for a class I was giving on this subject just before
we had our medieval wedding.

You didn't specify in what areas of medieval weddings you wanted the
research on, so I'm giving you what I've got. Good luck &
Congratulations!

Katie

1. The Origin of the bachelor dinner

This appears to have had its source in Sparta. A Spartan groom always
invited his close friends to a supper on the eve of his wedding. The
custom is very old and many believe it originated simultaneously in many
different lands.

2. From what tradition did engraved invitations or announcements stem?

Many centuries ago the monastic schools kept marriage books for the
royalty. These records were made in the very beautiful handwriting of
the monks. Later, formal invitations were issued by Royalty in the
handwriting referred to as 'script'. In 1620 copper plate engraving of
script writing was first achieved and gradually the custom evolved of
engraved rather than hand written invitations to weddings and other
formal affairs.

3. What is the origin of the trousseau?

The trousseau can be directly traced back to the barter-price,
purchase-price and dowry systems. It was customary for a bride to come
to her husband well-provided with a dowry, so that the man might be
compensated for his expenses in caring for the children of his wifes
lineage.

4. What was the origin of the members of the bridal party?

During the 'marriage by capture' era, the loyal tribesmen and close
friends of the groom within the tribe aided him to invade the enemy
territory to capture his bride. While he dashed off with her, his
friends stayed behind to fend off or fight the brides outraged
relatives. Such were the first ushers and best man. The maid of honor
and the bridesmaids, as they are known today, can also be traced back
through the centuries to Saxon England. The senior among them would
attend the bride for several days before the wedding. She was especially
responsible for the making of the bridal wreath, the decorations for the
wedding feast, and for dressing the bride.

5. What was the origin of the processional?

In Medieval times, the processional was especially colorful. Gaily
dressed minstrels sang and piped at the head of the procession. Next
came a young man bearing the bride-cup, which was a chalice or vase of
silver or silver-gilt, decorated with gilt, rosemary and ribbons. Then
the bride walked, attended by two bachelors, and a dozen or so knights
and pages. Next came maidens carrying bride cake, followed by girls with
garlands of wheat. The bridegroom then appeared, led by two maidens, and
walked in the midst of his close friends, including his "best man". The
relatives walked after him, and these were followed by less intimate
friends.

6. What is the tradition of wedding gowns?

In early Saxon days and through the 18th century, it was the poorer
bride who came to her wedding dressed in a plain white robe. This was in
the nature of a public statement that she brought nothing with her to
her marriage and that therefore her husband was not responsible for her
debts. Colors used for wedding dresses reflected the values that were
ascribed to certain colors. Blue was used to show constancy. Green was
an indicator of youth. A blue ribbon on the shoulder symbolized purity,
fidelity and love. Two colors not used much in medieval wedding gowns
were yellow and gold, the first because it symbolized jeolousy and the
second because it symbolized avarice.

7. What is the origin of the veil?

The introduction of the veil into Europe came through returning
crusades. In early wedding tradition in Europe the bride was bargained
for through her father. She was swathed in a bridal veil, and revealed
to her mate after the ceremony. In Anglo-Saxon times, the bride wore her
hair hanging loose as part of the wedding ritual.

8. How did flowers become associated with weddings?

The wearing of a wreath of ornage blossoms as a crown on the bridal veil
was a Saracen custom introduced by returning Crusaders. Orange blossoms
were so expensive that only the wealthy could afford them and poorer
brides resorted to artificial ones. Flowers also carried special
meanings. Apple blossoms - better things to come. Clematis - love vine.
Ivy - good luck. Rosebud - a promise. Myrtle - lover's flowers. Laurel -
peace. Again, there were flowers that wouldn't normally be used. Yellow
flowers - jeolousy. Tulips - infidelity.

9. What is the tradition concerning the tossing of the bridal bouquet?

Originally, it was not a bouquet but a garter that was tossed. This
custom originated in 14th century France. However, even when the bride
left it dangling around her ankle in order to make the snatching easy,
she was considerably mauled. Finally, some bride thought of tossing her
bouquet and this custom has been followed ever since. Some grooms still
like to follow the old garter tossing custom, so that ushers as well as
the bridesmaids may know who among them will be next to marry.

10. What is the origin of wedding gifts?

The tradition is closely related to the brides dowry. In all societies
and in all centuries, the celebrations attending the marriage ceremony
included the exchange of gifts, even if only of food. By Saxon and
Elizabethan times, it was customary to bestow upon the bride various
items of hardware which she carried in her belt, such as bodkins,
knives, scissors, pinchers, scales, etc. There are records of wedding
gift giving as far back as the Norman conquest.

11. What is the origin of the wedding reception and refreshments?

Marriage feasts have been in existance nearly as long as marriage
ceremonies. The early Greeks had a feast at the end of the wedding
procession when the bride was conducted to her new home at night.
Although the Greek custom was not to include women at their banquets,
they were invited to wedding feasts.

12. What is the origin of the wedding cake?

This was alwasy an important part of any wedding feast. Where or when it
first originated cannot be told, it is so ancient. The Romans broke a
cake made of salted meal over the bride's head as a symbol of abundance.
Many peoples of various nationalities customarily dropped wheat flour or
cake upon the bride's head, then ate these offerings for good luck. The
early Britons baked large baskets of small dry crackers for weddings and
every guest took 1 home - thus the tradition of taking wedding cake home
to "dream on". The small cakes gradually increased in size and richness,
and, so the story is told, a French chef in London finally had the idea
of icing the mass of cakes together - the first English-French wedding
cake, during the reign of Charles II.

13. What is the origin of the honeymoon?

In the caveman era, once the man had abducted his bride, he kept her
carefully hidden until her father's tribesmen gave up the pursuit and
permitted their tempers to cool. Among certain northern European peoples
in early centuries, a newly married couple drank wine made of mead and
honey, known as, metheglen, for a month after their marriage. A month
was then a "moon", and therefore the month during which the wine was
drunk became known as the honeymoon.

14. What is the origin of throwing rice, old shoes, etc?

The rice-throwing is closely related to the wedding cake itself - in
fact, throwing grain preceded the baking of cakes and the cake developed
from the earlier practise. The throwing of grain seemed to involve two
symbols; good luck and fertility, or abundance. Among ancient Assyrians
and Jews, when a bargain was made, a man gave his sandal as an
indication of good faith. A show was the symbol of authority. When the
Anglo-Saxon hurled a shoe, it indicated that authority had been
transferred.

I hope this gives you plenty of ideas. If you were looking for something
entirely different, please post back and give us a better idea of what
you're looking for!

Katie


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tccg at netcom.com (Tim McDaniel and Other Users)
Subject: Miss Manners, SCA Wedding
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 06:30:28 GMT

I sometimes wondered what Miss Manners would think of an SCA wedding.
Now I know.  Her article of 8 March 95 has a long letter on the
subject.  Rather than commit total copyright violation of clari.
feature.miss_manners, losing Netcom access, possibly losing Netcom's
access to Clarinet, and possibly losing Clarinet access to Miss Manners
(as happened with Dave Barry, a curse on the man who caused that!), I
will attempt to summarize.

I do encourage people to buy a paper witht this article.  Miss Manners
has lots of little witty bits that I have to remove here.  (I love her
style and sensibility.)

A mother is writing about her daughter and her daughter's fiance, "who
met in an organization that studies and re-creates medieval and
renaissance culture".  The couple plan to have an Italian Ren wedding
at a church.  There will be

- the normal service, but 16th Century music
- the wedding party weariing Italian Ren, from Raphael secular paintings
- banners and such for the dinner in the community hall
- the "first dance" will be the wedding party doing a period dance.

This mother's husband is outraged and insulted at this "circus".  The
daughter points out that the usual wedding clothes are also much
different from normal clothes, and that they're just following an older
tradition.  The mother herself is only worried about what people will
think of the wedding pictures in the future.

Miss Manners replies that she dislikes "theme weddings", but doesn't
think this is distasteful.

For the argument against:

Miss Manners points out that, despite the argument about wearing
different clothes mundane wedding clothes "are ... nevertheless
traditional to our time and place."  [But what if the society in which
you live is the Society?  My personal suggestion might be to get a
life. - TMcD]

She also points out (though not in such language) that an in-persona
wedding "encourages the idea" that this is merely an in-persona
wedding, not "a solemn event" committing the couple "in everyday life."
"Never mind that clever argument about the 'older' tradition -- Miss
Manners can think of even older traditions that would bring the house
down."

However, she relents on several grounds.

* "they are connecting the style with a serious interest that they and
their friends share. And no, that doesn't mean that Miss Manners will
put the stamp of good taste on a Trekkie wedding."

* The "theme" is restricted.  The ceremony itself is usual; it's the
party afterwards that gets the decorations and the dance.

* Italian Ren is not "freakish in a modern context": "And even the
clothes could pass for a version of today's evening clothes."  [I think
she was thinking about a woman's dress, not the men's clothing! --
TMcD]

* "Miss Manners doubts that friends who know of the couple's interests
will be 'insulted' by these details."

* No matter what is worn, the grandchildren will laugh at the clothing
in the wedding pictures anyway.

-- 
Daniel de Lincoln
Tim McDaniel                                  Dallas, TX -- 214 380-4876


From: Sharon Saroff <sindara at moose.erie.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Renaissance Wedding
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 09:04:07 -0500
Organization: ErieNet

I have seen mention of a wedding bread from the Island of Crete.  I have 
given this as a gift to several friends and I plan to have one at my SCA 
wedding this Pennsic.  It is Braided and decorated w/ dough in the shapes 
of moons, stars,etc. and dried and candied fruits and peels.  It contains 
many spices (cinnamon, nutmeg, ginger, coriander, clove, allspice, and 
anise), rum, almond flavor, orange peel, lemon peel, citrine, and orange 
flavor.  It is supposed to smell and taste like the sweetness of the 
wedding and the love shared by the bride and groom.  I'll see about 
digging up the recipe.

Another item of note: There is a custom in the Pacific Islands of 
dropping agate beads in the shell drining vessels of the bride and 
groom.  When this is done, the following is pronounced: "As these two 
beads at the bottom, so you will go together and not apart."

Sindara


From: Kirsti  Thomas <kst at paul.spu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Wedding
Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 10:49:23 -0700
Organization: Seattle Pacific University

Here's hoping that the newsreader will actually post to the outside world 
this time.   GRRR!!!

> In article <3o3hf6$vih at news.nevada.edu>, akersl at nevada.edu (LAURA AKERS) says:
> >
> >My fiance and I are planning a medieval (late 13th/early 14th century 
> >western Europe) wedding and are having a hard time locating resources.  
> >Can anyone recommend books on costuming, ceremonies, and family life?
> >Any help would be appreciated.
> >
> >Laura

Check the following subjects at your local public and/or research library:

Marriage customs and rites
Marriage services
Weddings
Sacraments
Betrothal
Courtship
Marriage--(place)
Costume--History--Medieval, 500-1500
Wedding costume
(Place)--Social life and customs

I'm working on putting together a bibliography, but don't anyone hold 
their breath.  In the meantime here's one book to take a look at:

 Stevenson, Kenneth  (Kenneth W.)
     Nuptial blessing :  a study of Christian marriage rites / 
Kenneth Stevenson.--New York :  Oxford University Press,  1983, c1982.

kirsti
kst at paul.spu.edu


From: bj at alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Barbara Jean Kuehl)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Creating FAQsheet for Medieval-style Weddings
Date: 17 Jul 1995 16:37:14 GMT
Organization: Information & Media Technologies, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee

The subject of medieval/Renaissance weddings arises frequently enough
on this newsgroup (as well as other groups which discuss related topics,
i.e., alt.fairs.renaissance, alt.wedding, soc.couples.wedding) that
I have volunteered to put together a FAQ sheet (possibly a web site)
on the topic since I've got a little spare time this summer and more
than a passing interest in the subject (my own wedding was medieval in
style).

The categories in which I gathering ideas and anecdotes include (but
are not limited to) the following:

	attire
	music
	flowers
	food
	decorations
	reception activities
	invitations/announcements
	traditions
	sites
	vows/readings
	favors
	handfasting

As an example of a wedding summary, I am posting a description of
my own medieval wedding just to give you some ideas.  If anyone has
had or has attended a medieval style wedding and would like to offer
their story or ideas, or if you can think of categories I have missed,
please email me directly or post to this newsgroup.  Information on
historical accuracy is appreciated but not mandatory as it is the
medieval ambience from the royal court to the peasantry that I am
hoping to capture.
					-BJ (aka Barbary)


		SUMMARY OF MY MEDIEVAL-STYLE WEDDING
			June 11, 1994

    For invitations, we bought prefolded parchment stationary from
a graphics supply store, and we designed and printed them on Tim's
McIntosh with color printer.  We used a variety of medieval fonts
and a lot of Hear Ye's and Prithee's.  Our announcements were similar
but were printed on parchment scrolls, rolled up and sealed with 
red wax, ribbon and family seal.

    We were married in an evening candlelight ceremony in a historic
church in downtown Milwaukee.  I lined the pews with candlesconces, hung
grapevine wreathes on the doors, and used tons of English ivy and seasonal
white flowers.  We chose not to adorn the church with any other decorations
because the church itself was ornate enough.

    I wore a long green A-line dress (white was NOT traditional
during medieval times) with a white lace shawl and a wreath of fresh
ivy for a tiara.  I carried a bouquet of ivy and white sweetpeas which I
tied together with trailing white and green ribbons.  My two daughters
(from previous marriage) served as my bridesmaids.  They wore long green
crushed velvet dresses and carried candles.  Tim dressed as a
medieval huntsman, wearing green velvet britches, knee-length leather
mocassins, white shirt and leather tunic.  The groomsmen were similarly
dressed (except they did not wear tunics).  As a wonderful surprise,
Tim's parents rented medieval robes from a costume shop.  His
mother wore a beautiful red and gold brocade dress, and his father 
wore a red and gold brocade jacket, white tights, and a bard's cap
with a long white feather!

    Our guests signed in on a parchment scroll using either a BIC or
 a quilled ink pen (their choice).  Tim chose all the wedding
 music which was played on full pipe organ.  We lit a unity candle from
 the two candles carried down the aisle by my bridesmaid daughters.
 We hired no photographer (we later chose our photos from amongst the
 many taken by our guests), and my FBIL videotaped the ceremony
 unobtrusively from the balcony.  Tim and I exchanged matched wedding bands
 which we had designed for us.  The rings were made to look like
 wreaths of ivy.  My matching engagement ring included a diamond
 nestled amongst the leaves.

    Following the ceremony, we were met at the church door by a 
horsedrawn carriage which whisked away the wedding party to a nearby
Hyatt Regency hotel where our reception lay awaiting in the executive
ballroom.  Earlier that day, we had decorated the ballroom with medieval
banners, a suit of armor, baskets of ivy and white roses, and votive
candles set in gold cups with medieval designs punched in them.  A buffet
table was laid out (decorated with ivy vines) with vegetables, fruits,
nuts, sausages, and cheeses.  The bartender served soda, wine and
champagne punch.  The background music (on tape) was a combination of
Celtic tunes featuring hammered dulcimer, Celtic harp, lute, flute,
etc.  We cut the three-tiered white and green wedding cake with two
long swords and toasted each other with long-stemmed pewter goblets.

    We heard no negative remarks about our untraditional wedding.
In fact, the most common comment was "This is the way weddings are
supposed to be".


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ojid.wbst845 at xerox.com (Orilee Ireland-Delfs)
Subject: Re: Creating FAQsheet for Medieval-style Wedd
Organization: Xerox Corporation, Webster NY
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 17:07:21 GMT

When my protege got married, she asked me to be autocrat-in-charge
for the day, since she made all of the other arrangements in advance.

I'll just summarize the highlights:

The wedding was outside in her sister's backyard with pavilions
set up to provide shade for the wedding itself, the cooks, and for
the guests to dine under.  The main pavilion was decorated with
large baskets of flowers and an aisle was created with flowered
garlands on poles and large standing wooden candle holders.

She wore a cream brocaide dress (a bit of fantasy here - it was
modeled after one in the Princess Bride) with her hair uncovered.
Her bridesmaids each wore a dress in a jewel tone to match their
own persona: one was in a deep red tudor, another in emerald green
cotehardie.  She also made matching outfits for her parents and
his parents (the fathers discovered how much fun tights can be - 
we complimented them on their legs quite regularly!)
Guests were encouraged to wear garb (altho the SCA 
guests wore garb as a matter of course : )  The groom, being Irish, wore
a saffron yellow tunic with embroidery and went barefoot most of the day.

The reception was "catered" by our best SCA cooks and consisted of
SCA-type fare: salads, fresh fruit, chicken, etc.  (I'll get the menu
if you really want it).  The wedding cake was a castle with a marzipan
bride and groom at the gate.

The wedding was conducted by a justice of the peace.

The afternoon activities consisted of a tournament for the bride's
garter (the winner of the tourney won her garter), a fencing tournament,
archery, and a small court conducted by the bride and groom before they
left.

Orianna


From: ashaw at consultronics.on.ca (Aaron Shaw)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: bereavement
Date: 31 Jul 1995 21:44:38 GMT
Organization: Consultronics Limited

ALBAN at delphi.COM says...
>Solveig Throndardottir said:
>>It seems to me that the society should soon begin evolving 
>>death and berievement customs similar to those practiced by 
>>the masons.  I do believe that the society forms a significant 
>>part of the lives of many who belong to it.  
>i agree with solveig: i think it's about time people started 
>researching **and doing** other types of ceremonies - birth 
>parties (for babies, not birthdays, although it'd be really spiff to 
>see what period birthday celebrations were like), wedding 
>showers, bachelor parties, baptisms and equivalents (like bris's), 
>engagements, recovery-from-great-illness parties, spring 
>planting and fertility celebrations, fall harvest fairs, 
>housewarmings, barn raisings (with obligatory branch tied to last 
>rafter raised), shrovetide pancake races, my-eldest-son-just-
>caught-the-biggest-fish-of-the-year parties. . . i am _not_ 
>intending to downplay the idea of bereavement customs; they 
>are a vital party of any successful culture. but so are a lot of other 
>life-affirming customs, ones that i think the sca and its 
>membership would do well to investigate more fully and 
>recreate more often.

It was along this spirit that the Venshaven encampment (especially Ragnar 
Thorbergsson) and my brother Siggurd helped me to throw a Norse wedding 
feast and ceremony for my fiance Eyrny at War last year.  We received 
invaluable assistance from a lady in Texas (i think it was texas - i 
can't remember exactly) who had done the research on the appropriate 
ceremonies.  Our friends from all around rallied to our assistance to 
make the day go wonderfully.

We requested that all guests attempt to garb themselves in the Norse 
manner, which most were able to accomplish, greatly helping the 
atmosphere.  There were many parts of the whole day & evening that made 
the historical aspect strike home, too many to attempt to talk about 
here.  One of these was when Ragnar gifted unto us a small farm plot of 
land in England, complete with tenants, and a silver mark as thier first 
year's rent paid for, that he would monitor and collect rent for us 
yearly.

Since this time, we (as Hoskuld & Eyrny) conduct ourselves as married.  
Our more modern selves will actually do modern, legal paperwork in 
Aug'96.

Anyone who is interested in getting a copy of the research for this 
ceremony should e-mail me privately, and I will foward the name & e-mail 
address of the original source to you.

Hoskuld Thorleiksson
Middle Kingdom
Principality of Ealdormere
hoskuld at consultronics.on.ca


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: hopkins at hopkins.rtp.dg.com (Edward Hopkins)
Subject: Re: Menu ideas for medieval wedding reception
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 95 00:01:03 GMT
Organization: Data General Corporation. RTP, NC.

bj at alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Barbara Jean Kuehl) writes:
>
>1) What kinds of foods might one see on the menu of a wedding banquet
>   during the early medieval age (the Dark Ages, Arthurian fantasy, etc.)?
>
>2) What kinds of foods might one see on the menu of a wedding banquet
>   during the mid-medieval age (the Crusades, Robin Hood fantasy, etc.)?
>
>3) What kinds of foods might one see on the menu of a wedding banquet
>   during the late medieval age (the Renaissance, Elizabethan age, etc.)?
>
>I'm looking for menu ideas (not specific recipes) on the types of foods
>which one might actually have seen on the banquet tables during these
>periods.  I'm also interested in how the foods were laid out and/or
>served.  
>
>Thanks for any help you can give.

I suggest that you look for a book showing the paintings of
Pieter Brueghel (also known as Pieter Breugel), a Dutch
painter of the Fifteenth Century (I think, maybe; well
definitely in the Period).  He did at least one delightful
paintings of a wedding feast.

-- Alfredo
hopkins at dg-rtp.dg.com


From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Wedding feast during the Dark Ages
Date: 4 Aug 1995 03:51:07 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Barbara Jean Kuehl (bj at alpha1.csd.uwm.edu) wrote:
: I am attempting to write a description of how a wedding feast might have
: looked during the Dark Ages, specifically during the time of King Arthur
: ( at 600 AD Britain) and Beowulf ( at 700 Scandinavia).  Can anyone help me
: as to the types of clothing, music, foods and traditions one would
: probably encounter at these two points in history?

For the first, try reading the descriptions of weddings (and feasts in 
general) in the Mabinogi. Although the tales were probably first written 
down (or at least codified in the present form) around the 10-11th 
century, the era they describe is significantly earlier (when it isn't 
"timeless"). I won't go so far as to say that it is "correct" for 6-7th 
century Britain, but it is probably one of the best approximations you'll 
find. It's a bit light on clothing and music descriptions. Mostly you get 
a bare-bones description like "At Aberfraw they began the [wedding] feast 
and sat them down. This is how they sat [seating arrangements omitted]. 
... And they began the carousal. They continued to carouse and converse. 
And when they perceived that it was better for them to seek slumber than 
to continue the carousal, to sleep they went. And that night Matholwch 
slept with Branwen." Perhaps surprisingly, to modern pre-conceptions of 
the time, good conversation is _always_ mentioned as essential to a 
successful party. A bit more detailed is the wedding of Pwyll and 
Rhiannon in the First Branch. "He set off for the court of Hefeydd the 
Old, and he came to the court, and a joyous welcome was given him; and 
there was much gathering of folk and rejoicing and great preparations 
against his coming; and all the resources of the court were dispensed at 
his direction. The hall was made rady, and they went to the tables. This 
is how they sat: Hefeydd the Old [the bride's father] on one side of 
Pwyll, and Rhiannon the other side; thereafter each according to his 
rank. They ate and caroused and they conversed. And at the beginning of 
carousal after meat [a stranger enters the hall, asks a boon, which Pwyll 
foolishly agrees to grant before hearing it. Many adventures ensue. A 
year later, the wedding feast is resumed.] And they went to sit at table; 
and as they sat a year from that night, they sat each one that night. 
They ate and caroused and time came to go to sleep. And Pwyll and 
Rhiannon went to their chamber, and they passed that night in pleasure 
and contentment. And on the morrow in the youth of the day, 'Lord,' said 
Rhiannon, 'arise and begin to content the minstrels, and refuse no one 
today who may desire a gift.' 'That will I gladly,' said Pwyll, 'both 
today and every day whilst this feast may last.' Pwyll arose and had 
silence proclaimed, to call on all suitors and minstrels to declare 
themselves, and had them told how all should be contented according to 
their wish and whim; and that was done. That feast was preoceeded with, 
and none was denied while it lasted. And when the feast was ended [the 
bride and groom return to his home.]"

There are more examples, but best you should buy a copy for yourself.

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Wedding feast during the Dark Ages
Date: 4 Aug 1995 15:21:08 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

In article <3vqt5r$eob at uwm.edu>,
Barbara Jean Kuehl <bj at alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote:
>I am attempting to write a description of how a wedding feast might have
>looked during the Dark Ages, specifically during the time of King Arthur
>( at 600 AD Britain) and Beowulf ( at 700 Scandinavia).  Can anyone help me
>as to the types of clothing, music, foods and traditions one would
>probably encounter at these two points in history?
>
I haven't got the text here at work, but look up a book with a
title something like "Earliest English Law Texts" (or search for
subject, early english law, etc.) till you get hold of a copy of
the laws of Ine, King of Wessex, 8th century or so.  These laws
include a list of what was included in "feorm"-rent (what you
paid to the king for the land you held of him, to put it in
later-period terms).  Roughly:

	1 steer's worth of beef
	a couple of wethers' worth of mutton
	a pig or two, I think
	lots of salmon
	hundreds of loaves of bread
	lots of honey
	lots and lots of "clear ale" and "Welsh ale"

No vegetables are mentioned, but that isn't to say they wouldn't
have been served in season, and described as "worts."

Now maybe you sent this in to the King's house, if it was
convenient, but more likely you had him and his huscarles as
guests for a couple of days, as they traveled around from place
to place.  I dare say they took the leftovers with them.

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin		Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West			UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable		djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu
PRO DEO ET REGE


From: bj at alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Barbara Jean Kuehl)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Catalogs for the medieval wedding faq
Date: 4 Aug 1995 18:18:55 GMT
Organization: Information & Media Technologies, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee

The following is a list of catalogs which have been suggested for
inclusion in the Medieval and Renaissance Wedding Faq as sources of
clothing and/or items with medieval flavor.  I am currently in the
process of attempting to attain these catalogs so that I can check
them out but, in the meantime, if anyone has one of the catalogs or
has ordered from them, I would like to hear from you as to the quality
and types of items offered by the catalog company.

For medieval clothing, patterns and items:

Raiments
P.O. Box 93095
Pasadena, CA 91109

Renaissance Herald (was Renaissance Shopper)
P.O. Box 422
Riverside, CA 92502

Amazon Vinegar & Pickling Works
2218 East 11th Street
Davenport, IA 52803

Exclusively Weddings
1301 Carolina Street
Greensboro, NC 27401
1-800-759-7666

Harriet's, ETc
Millwood Crossing
381 Millwood Avenue
Winchester, VA 22601

Museum Replicas Ltd
2143 Gees Mill road
Box 840
Conyers, GA 30207
1-800-883-8838

The Noble Collection
P.O. Box 831
Merrifield, VA 22116
1-800-noble-8 (was given as phone # but this is obviously incorrect)

Hedgehog Handiworks
8406 Flight Avenue
Los Angeles, CA 90045

Dancing Dragon 5670 West End Road, #4
P.O. Box 1106
Arcata, CA 95521
1-800-322-6041

Past Times
280 Summer Street
Boston, MA 02210-1182
1-800-242-1020

Atlanta Cutlery
ANYONE HAVE AN ADDRESS?

For paper products, parchment, invitations, and gifts:

Colorful Images
1401 South Sunset Street
Longmont, Co 80501-6755
1-800-458-7999

Earth Care 
ANYONE HAVE ADDRESS?
1-800-347-0070

Paper Direct
ANYONE HAVE ADDRESS?
1-800-272-7377

If you know of any other catalogs which should be included in the
Medieval and Renaissance Wedding Faq, please send me their names,
addresses and 1-800-#s.

BJ


From: Karen Vicker <lupa at u.washington.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Catalogs for the medieval wedding faq
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 13:39:38 -0700
Organization: University of Washington

On 4 Aug 1995, Barbara Jean Kuehl wrote:
> 
> Past Times
> 280 Summer Street
> Boston, MA 02210-1182
> 1-800-242-1020
My aplologies for this lengthy return to the question, but when I visited 
the Past Times outlets in Oxford, Edinburgh and London this spring I was 
impressed with their medieval selection, small though it may be. Most of 
the store was OOP, but the selection of Celtic jewelry and such was very 
nice, and they had some very good reference material (basic, but good) 
for those interested in research. This is a good source!


From: bj at alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Barbara Jean Kuehl)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: More catalogs for the medieval wedding faq
Date: 4 Aug 1995 18:53:05 GMT
Organization: Information & Media Technologies, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee

Oops, I forgot to include the following catalogs in the list of catalogs
suggested for the Medieval and Renaissance Wedding Faq.  The same request
applies...if you have a copy of any of these catalogs or have ordered
from the companies, I would be interested in hearing from yu as to the
quality and types of merchandise offered.

					BJ

Whole Costumer's Catalog
PO Box 207
Beallsville, PA 15313

Carolina Stitches in Time
Box 10933
Winston-Salem, N.C. 27108
(919) 764-0790

Chivalry Sports
PO Box 18904
Tucson, AZ 85731-8904
Inquires  (602) 722-1255
Orders 1-800-730-KING

JAS Townsend & Son
P.O. Box 415
Pierceton, IN 46562
(800) 338-1665

Mediaeval Miscellanea
6530 Spring Valley Drive
Alexandria, VA 22312
(703) 642 - 1740 and Fax: (708) 237-1374

The Queens Thimble
515 S. Evergreen Dr.
Mira Loma, CA 91752-1577
(909)360-6041

Sterling Silks/Sterling Cloth Company
701 Cleveland Avenue Southwest
Canton, Ohio  44702
(216) 456-0653

MacKenzie-Smith
9600 Business Park Dr. Suite 2
Truckee, CA 95734
 (916) 587-5974

Campbells
RD 1 Box 1444
Herndon, PA  17830
(717) 425-2045

Alice Stephenson
2734 Mountain View W.
Tocoma, WA  98466
 (206) 565-2893

House Morning Star
11246 S. Post Oak Rd. #217
Houston, TX 77035
(713) 729-7990

An anotated bibliography of pre-1650 costume sources (including books
and periodicals) is available from:
Puffs and Slashes
c/o L. R. Fox
P. O. Box 443
Bloomington, IN 47402-0443
$2.50 per copy


From: Kirsti Thomas <kst at paul.spu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,alt.wedding,soc.couples.wedding
Subject: Medieval/Renaissance Wedding Bibliography
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 19:22:52 -0700
Organization: Seattle Pacific University

The rough drafts of bibliographies of articles and books have been loaded 
onto my homepage.

http://paul.spu.edu/~kst 

kirsti
kst at paul.spu.edu


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period greenery for a wedding
Date: 7 Dec 1995 18:04:33 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

In article <49nlop$5n at sphinx.gsu.edu>,
Jennifer Aiello <gs01jxa at panther.Gsu.EDU> wrote:
>A friend of mine who is a rather active member of SCA is getting married 
>in a few weeks and I've been asked to decorate the reception hall.  Does 
>anyone know of any herbs/plants/assorted greenery that would be 
>appropriate or particularly meaningful for this?  ...

Well, the bad news is--some people in our area were asked this
question a while back and did the research--that it is not period
at all to decorate the interior of a building with vases of flowers.
That is a *Victorian* practice; our people even came up with the
name of the lady who first did it, but I've forgotten it.

The good news is that almost nobody knows this.  You *could* do
whatever you think looks nice and you can afford.

I would suggest cutting evergreen branches and decking the rafters
with them, and garlands of flowers for the heads of the wedding party.

The most impressive way to decorate the reception hall, IMNSHO,
is to borrow everybody's personal banners, those of your group
and neighboring shires, etc., and deck the walls with those.
Lotsa color.

For my wedding (25 years ago) we decked the church (ugly bare
concrete) with banners and put garlands on the heads of the
wedding party; the reception was held outdoors.  But this was
California in May.

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin		Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West			UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable		djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu
PRO DEO ET REGE


From: Gretchen Miller <grm+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Scottish Weddings
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 13:22:53 -0500
Organization: Computer Operations, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

My husband and I based our wedding on period Scottish practice as
described in the book "Virgins and Verigos", a book about women in
Scotland from 1200-1700 (this book used to be available from Unicorn,
Ltd.  I highly recommend it)

The period Scottish marriage was prefaced by the making of a marriage
contract.  That we cut out.  On the day of the marriage, the couple and
witnesses appear before a priest, declare that there is no hinderance to
their getting married, and say "I, name, take, you name, as my
husband/wife, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy
Ghost". 

And that's it.

We added a piper to pipe us and our attendants in.  Since this is
Pennsylvania, where you can get a Quaker license (ask me for details if
you're interested), we didn't need/have a priest/officiate.  We used the
declarations and phrase above, then exchanged rings.  Then the piper
piped us back up the aisle.  Short, sweet, and very very nice.  (Also,
very period)

toodles, margaret


From: s.krossa at aberdeen.ac.uk (Sharon Krossa)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Scottish Weddings
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 04:32:46 +0000
Organization: Phuture PhuDs

In article <4gmfuu$a6a at heathers.stdio.com>,
maney at heathers.stdio.com (Fredrich P. Maney) wrote:

>Lyon (lyon at infi.net at infi.net) wrote:
>: My fiance and I are getting married in Oct and although we are not having an
>SCA
>: wedding we are trying to incorporate some Scottish elements, the groomsmen are
>: wearing full-dress highland, we have a celtic band ect.  We are now looking
>for
>: some Scottish traditions to make the ceremony more unique.  Any ideas?
>: Giovanna Mancuso
>: andreah at cpsnet.com
>
>Umm... offhand I'll mention this. You should incorporate a blacksmith
>with anvil and hammer, as well as a Piper.

The blacksmith is actually an *English* tradition -- coming from the
English couples running away to Scotland to get married (because until
about 1940 all you had to do was consent to marriage in words of the
present tense to get married in Scotland) and stopping at Gretna Green (one
of the most southerly border villages) and snagging the blacksmith as a
witness. *Scottish* couples didn't go to gretna green and its famous
blacksmith, because they could get married anywhere they wanted to.

Of course, this was an irregular form of marriage -- perfectly legal and
binding, but the authorities still did their best to make you solemnize it
properly afterwords (ie, do the banns and church thing, even though you
were already married). It really has little to do with a formal, especially
church, wedding.

Sharon Krossa, who can't seem to escape from the section on marriage in her
thesis

skrossa at svpal.org (permanent) -or- s.krossa at aberdeen.ac.uk (until June 1996)


From: "'Jherek' W. Swanger" <jswanger at u.washington.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Scottish Wedding Ceremonys and Viking Dances
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 13:49:05 -0800
Organization: University of Washington

On 25 Mar 1996, Greg Williams wrote:

> Does anybody have any information on Scottish Wedding ceremonies from
> period

Stop by the Medieval/Renaissance Wedding Page
[http://paul.spu.edu/~kst/bib/bib.html] and take a look at the
bibliographies.  I would especially recommend trying to get your hands on
the following books and articles:

Searle, Mark, and Kenneth W. Stevenson.  Documents of the Marriage
  Liturgy.  Collegeville, Minn.: Liturgical P, 1992.

Stevenson, Kenneth W.  Nuptial Blessing: a Study of Christian Marriage
  Rites.  New York: Oxford UP, 1983.

Muirhead, I.A.  "The Forme of Marriage: 1562 and Today."  Scottish Journal
  of Theology  6 (Mar. 1953): 31-42

It is more or less impossible to find information on marriage ceremonies
before the 10th-11th centuries.  This is partially due to the fact that
marriage was considered a secular, civic contract rather than a sacrament
for much of church history and so the priests and monks who were writing
things down, weren't too concerned with it.

Towards the beginning of the Middle Ages, a priest *could* be present at a
wedding ceremony to bless the couple, but it wasn't until the Council of
Trent in the 16th century that the Church absolutely required a clergyman
to officiate.  In many cases, the only thing required to marry the couple
was the exchange of vows (as simple as, "Will you marry me?"  "I will.")
and some sort of token (rings, a piece of fruit, etc.) in front of a
witness.  This seems to have held on in Scotland for a very long time.
It wasn't until the early 20th century that Scottish law *required* an
officient to marry the couple; prior to that you could get married by
simply stating in front of witnesses that you were wed.

kirsti
(not jherek)


Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 10:40:14 EST
From: <CS23001 at MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Scottish weddings

In response to the inquiry regarding Scottish weddings:

Within the last month there has been discussion on scottish.culture
newsgroup about Scottish weddings.  I don't recall exactly who,
but someone is working on a FAQ.  While I do not expect to see
any specific references (yet) to the middle ages time period,
this is probably a good jump point to learn more about medieval
Scottish weddings.

I found this posting today from Craig Cockburn of Edinburgh, Scotland.

I hope it helps. I have not yet checked out this site.

-- Lady Bryn MacLachlan (Lisa Tyson)
Shire of Endewearde
Kingdom of the East
===============================================
>From: Craig Cockburn <craig at scot.demon.co.uk>
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.scottish,soc.culture.celtic,
>soc.couples.wedding
>Subject: Updated info on Scottish weddings
>Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 16:28:22 +0000
>Organization: Mo dhachaidh
>
>I've updated my WWW pages, URL below.
>  Included in this update:
>
>    More info on Scottish weddings
>    Expanded info about organisations, Edinburgh Folk Festival, Fringe
>       Festival, Adult Learning Project etc.
>    various other changes and bugfixes.
>
> Craig Cockburn (pronounced "coburn"), Edinburgh, Scotland
> Web pages at http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~craig/   comments welcome
> Sgri\obh thugam 'sa Gha\idhlig ma 'se do thoil e..


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Cake Tops
Date: 19 Jul 1996 20:05:28 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley

In article <31EEF5CF.58BA at huskynet.com>, Beowulf  <beowulf at huskynet.com> wrote:
>I am getting married this fall and I would like to have two 
>different cake tops. 
>
>       1) A castle
>       2) A knight (perferably on horseback)
>
>       Anyone know of any good places to find something like this. I can 
>find plenty of things like this in perwter but I was hoping for glass or 
>some other material. Anyone?

Well, when I got married, and it's 25 years ago, I went to a bakery
in Berkeley that no longer exists, alas; and I started saying to
the clerk, "I want a wedding cake that looks like this..." and
after half a paragraph she said, "You'd better talk to the baker."

So I did, and the baker was most enthusiastic.  I showed him a
picture of a thirteenth-century ivory plaque showing knights
attacking the Castle of Love, and ladies defending it with flowers.

I had managed to find plastic knights and ladies about two inches
high in my local dime store.  This clearly depends on whether you
make your Serendipity roll when you go shopping!  Maybe you could
paint your pewter figures with nontoxic paint?

Anyway, of all the variegated sizes of cake pan he had available
for baking wedding cakes, the baker made one layer of the largest
size he had, and about five layers of the smallest, for the
tower.  He frosted the tower to look like masonry, and the bottom
layer to look like grass.  Then he made frosting flowers in the
hands of (well, on the fronts of) the ladies, and several knights
were shown to have just received a flower, splat! right in the
kisser.  Other flowers were scattered around the landscape.

Try your local dime stores.... if that doesn't yield suitable
plastic stuff, try painting your pewter and taking all the
figures *OFF* the cake before it's cut, wrapping them up and
putting them away, so no little kid decides to try a nibble.
Good hunting.

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West                        UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable           djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu
PRO DEO ET REGE


From: Linda Cox <coxlj at a1.esvax.umc.dupont.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Cake Tops
Date: 23 Jul 1996 16:32:26 GMT
Organization: CR&D

Beowulf wrote:
> I am getting married this fall and I would like to have two
> different cake tops.
> 
>         1) A castle
>         2) A knight (perferably on horseback)
> 
>         Anyone know of any good places to find something like this. I can
> find plenty of things like this in perwter but I was hoping for glass or
> some other material. Anyone?

Often you can find castles, knights, etc. done in ceramics at gift
shops or at role-playing stores.  These are fairly heavy, but they
can be used as cake toppers as follows: get a piece of heavy card-
board or light particleboard and cut it about 1/2" smaller than the
top layer.  Ice it with the same icing used on the cake.  Insert straws
or dowels in the top layer as for the other layers (to support the 
tiered cake, dowels or straws are inserted into each layer -- your
baker will know) and rest the cardboard circle on top.  Place your
figurines on the circle and decorate the edge so it doesn't show;
you can support quite a bit of weight this way.

If the figurines have felt bottoms, the felt can be covered with
carefully trimmed saran wrap to keep them clean.

Felicitations on your upcoming marriage,
Lady Signi Bjornsdottar


From: jeffebear1 at aol.com (JeffEBear1)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Cake Tops
Date: 28 Jul 1996 11:41:26 -0400

In article <31EEF5CF.58BA at huskynet.com>, Beowulf <beowulf at huskynet.com>
writes:

>I am getting married this fall and I would like to have two 
>different cake tops. 
>
>       1) A castle
>       2) A knight (perferably on horseback)

DragonMarsh carries the cutest knight on horseback with a lance that comes
out of the hand. It's about 4 " tall and made of pewter. I placed 2
"Jousting" each other on a cake and it was cute. I believe they also have
a glass cake top available of a castle. Along with a lord/lady pewter top.
Call (909) 276-1116 and ask for misty.


From: s.krossa at aberdeen.ac.uk (Sharon Krossa)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Scottish Marriage (was: Scottish Personas Help!!!)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 02:42:58 +0000

In article <4mKdB5e00UjUM5VUkD at andrew.cmu.edu>,
Gretchen M Beck <grm+ at andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:

>Excerpts from netnews.rec.org.sca: 7-Oct-96 Re: Scottish Personas
>Help!!! Bryan J. Maloney at cornell (558)
>
>> Handfastings were not weddings, nor were they "pagan"--they were a result
>> of the fact that the Christian priests of the day had to act as "circuit
>> riders", and one couldn't always have a priest handy to do a marriage
>> whenever.  Thus, you had a "handfasting", and the matter was then
>> solemnized/rendered official when the priest made it 'round.
>
>Technically, and especially in Scotland, you don't need a priest, or a
>handfasting--all that's required is the agreement to a wedding contract
>between the two individuals involved.  In Scotland, for most of period,
>if you agreed between the two of you that you were married, you
>were--this also applied to England (see the issue of whether Anne Boleyn
>or Catherine Howard had secretly arranged a marriage before their
>marriages to Henry).

No, technically (at least in Scotland) all you needed was to exchange
consents in the present tense. No priests, no witnesses (though that would
make it hard to prove), no marriage contracts. "I take you for my husband"
"I take you for my wife" Hey, presto, another married couple.

>Usually the procedure went like this:  the parties involved (or rather
>their parents/guardians) arranged a marriage contract, in which the
>various goods/monies/services each party would provide to the marriage
>were spelled out.  Bans were posted so that anyone claiming a prior
>contract could come forward.  If none introduced a prior claim, then the
>couple declared themselves married before witnesses--usually, though not
>necessarily, in front of a priest.

No, this is not how it worked (least not in Scotland)

What happened, if you were going to do it properly, parental consent and
all, was
1) They (usually the parents) arranged the marriage contract. 

2) Often, there was a handfasting at which the couple was betrothed (that's
what handfastings are, betrothals, getting engaged to be married). This is
usually when the marriage contracts were signed/witnessed/whatever.

3) The banns were posted/read/whatever. This would not only give notice for
prior marriages to be made known, but also of any other impediments (like
consanguinity, etc.) to be made known. For all I know, however, there may
(also) have been a totally different motivation for the banns. I can't
really say, as I don't know. But people didn't do banns unless they
intended to have a church wedding.

4) The couple went to church, and, in the precense of the priest, at the
door of the church, they exchanged consents in the present tense. (In order
to do this church door and priest thing, the banns were required -- at
least from a certain council whose date I forget)

5) At this point, things varied. A blessing might be given, a nuptial mass
was often celebrated, etc. However, this was just extra icing -- the thing
that *married* the couple was the consent by words of the present -- not
anything that came before, nor anything that came after.

The above is the normal form of marriage. Other forms worked, but if you
were going to all the bother of marriage contracts, etc, then this was the
most common form. This was the only form in which priests were supposed to
involve themselves.

Effric neyn Kenyeoch vcHarrald
mka Sharon Krossa, growing weary...
skrossa at svpal.org (permanent) -or- s.krossa at abdn.ac.uk (until Nov 1996)
Medieval Scotland Web Page (including information on names & clothing):
http://www.abdn.ac.uk/~his016/medieval_scotland.html


Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 00:44:22 -0500
To: ansteorra at eden.com
From: gunnora at bga.com (Gunnora Hallakarva)
Subject: Wedding Rings in Period

Here's another interesting tidbit I gathered from the Historical Costuming
news list.

Gunnora Hallakarva
Herskerinde
====================================

Date:    Sun, 20 Oct 1996 15:31:49 -0700
From:    Trudy <bambi at RESORT.COM>
Subject: wedding rings

i happened to find a book yesterday which discuessed (only a little) wedding
rings and on which finger they were worn...i just wrote down some notes, so i'm
only paraphrsing here:

during the period of george I in england, the wedding ring was usually
worn on the thumb (although it was placed on the fourth -- i guess what
we consider the ring -- finger during the ceremony).  apparently very large
wedding rings were fashionable which necessitated waering them on the
thumb.

in france from the 11th to the 15th centuries, they wre usually on the right
hand, middle finger; s in some areas they were on the fourth finger.

the guals and the britons of the 1st century wore the ring on the middle
finger (didn't say which hand).

the order of matrimony in england, pre-freformation said that men
should wear their wedding ring on their right hand, women on the left.

chirlandajo's frescoes in the curch of santa croce in florence show
the betrothal of the ivrgin (make that virgin...no backspace c key here)
mary -- the ring is placed by joseph on mary's fourth vinger, right hand.

during the betrothal of lucrezia borgia with giv ARGH make that giovanni
sforza on feb. 2, 1493, the wedding (engagement) ring was placed on her
fourth finger, left hand.

and finally, an idea that might explain the custom of wearing the wedding
ring on the thumb -- the second digit of the thumb was dedicated to
the virgin mary.

this is all from "rings for the finger", by george frederick kunz,
dover press, 1917 (repreinted i believe late 1940s).  i found thi s book
used at Green Apple Books on Clement St. in San Francisco (i didn't buy
it so it's still there ) if any bay area people are interested.

-Kendra Van Cleave


From: roggenbk at river.it.gvsu.edu (Karin Bear)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: weddings
Date: 30 Jan 1997 16:16:19 GMT
Organization: Grand Valley State University

Tara L Wilbur (wilbutl at mail.auburn.edu) wrote:
: yet, but I would appreciate any advice/info anyone has on medieval/early 
: Renaissance weddings/clothes/food/traditions/flowers/etc.

Tara, first, congrats!  Second, there are a few resources that could help
you, though unfortunately I don't have the addresses handy for either one.
The first is the SCA's own Rialto files.  (Lots of documents and threads
relating to various subjects). [Now called Stefan's Florilegium. You are
now reading the file mentioned]  Someone here should be able to tell you
where to find them, or just search for either Rialto or SCA on an engine.
The other is the FAQ for soc.couples.weddings.  There are several sections
on there pertaining to medieval weddings complete with flowers, food,
dress (catalog names and ideas!) and I think favours too.  This is posted
monthly to either soc.couples.weddings, alt.wedding and a few other NG's
too.  Dejanews should be able to help you find it.  (FWIW, I got a lot of
my ideas out of it, as I too am planning a period wedding)

-- Karin (and Kevin) sometime in '99


Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 22:41:13 -0600
From: kst at paul.spu.edu
Subject: Re: 15th century wedding
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

> From: dederick at clark.edu (David Eric Sletten)

> I am a welsh archer/merchant. I just got engaged to a 15th century Itailan
> concubine.  She expect a large wedding from her home land. I need help. If
> you have any info or know where I should look I woould really appreciate it.

You might want to stop by the Medieval/Renaissance Wedding Page at
http://paul.spu.edu/~kst/bib/bib.html

I would especially suggest looking at the bibliography of books.
In my research, I did run across a fair deal of information on
Italian weddings.  Some of the ones you will probably want to get
your hands on (talk to the Interlibrary Loan Dept. at your library)
include:

Altieri, Marco Antonio.  Li nuptiali.  Rome, C. Bartoli, 1873.  Ed.
  Enrico Narducci.
  (If you can read Italian, this seems to be one of the best primary
  sources on Italian Renaissance wedding rituals.  Originally written
  around 1509, it was reprinted in 1873 and does not seem to have
  appeared in print since.)

Centro italiano di studi sull'alto Medioevo.  Il Matrimonio Nella
  Societa Altomedievale: 22-28 aprile 1976. Settimane di studio del
  Centro italiano di studi sull'alto Medioevo 24.  Spoleto : Presso
  la sede del Centro, 1977.

Gerstfeldt, Olga von.  Hochzeitsfeste der Renaissance in Italien.
  Esslingen: P. Neff, 1906.

Klapisch-Zuber, Christiane., Women, Family and Ritual in Renaissance
  Italy.  Chicago: U of Chicago P, 1985.

Searle, Mark, and Kenneth W. Stevenson.  Documents of the Marriage
  Liturgy.  Collegeville, Minn.: Liturgical P, 1992.
  (_The_ book to read for copies of the vows themselves.  Includes a
  Jewish ceremony and a number of Christian liturgies from the Early
  Middle Ages to the present)

Stevenson, Kenneth W.  Nuptial Blessing: a Study of Christian Marriage
  Rites.  New York: Oxford UP, 1983.
  (Chapter 2 is a good source for various rituals and ceremonies,
  while Chapter 3 deals with marriage customs during the Reformation)

Bolton, Brenda, et al., eds.  Women in Medieval Society.  Philadelphia:
  U of Pennsylvania P, 1976.

Klapisch-Zuber, Christiane.  "Zacharias; or, The Ousting of the Father:
  the Rites of Marriage in Tuscany from Giotto to the Council of Trent."
  Ritual, Religion and the Sacred.  Ed. Robert Forster and Orest Ranum.
  Baltimore: Johns Hopkins UP, 1982.


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Flowers for mideaval wedding
Date: 15 Apr 1997 00:04:29 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley

Hilary of Serendip did some research a while back and found that
the whole concept of decorating the interior of a building with
cut flowers seems to have come in in Early Victorian times.  (She
actually mentioned the name of the lady who started it, but I've
forgotten it.)  So in that sense no flower arrangements would be
strictly period.  Flower wreaths on your heads, however, would be. 
You could scatter rushes [if you can find any], herbs, and stray
blossoms over the floor--or over the tablecloth on which you serve
the food.

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                          Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West                                Albany, California
PRO DEO ET REGE                                     djheydt at uclink


From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 23:21:41 -0400
Subject: Re: SC - Announcement and question

The Cheshire Cat wrote:
> As a result of this recent turn of events, could anyone please tell me what
> type of dishes were served at a period wedding feast?
> 
> -Sianan

For what it's worth, there's a complete wedding feast menu in Le
Menagier de Paris. I don't have it in front of me at the moment, but I
recall it is pretty standard 14th-century French foods: in other words,
not too shabby!

Adamantius


From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 23:05:55 -0500
Subject: Re:  SC - Announcement and question

Concerning wedding feasts: there are surviving menus reproduced in Austin
at the end of the first manuscript and, I believe, in the Menagier.  The
ones in Austin are from 14th and 15th C England (not all the menus are
weddings, but some are); the Menagier's, presumably, would be 14th C
France.

- -- Katerine/Terry


From: Stephen Bloch <sbloch at adl15.adelphi.edu>
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 21:57:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: SC - Announcement and question

> could anyone please tell me what
> type of dishes were served at a period wedding feast?

There is a recipe in _Manuscrito Anonimo_ (a 13th-century Arabo-
Andalusian cookbook) specifically described as "served among us at
wedding feasts in the Algarve".  At least, that's my recollection.  I
can't find it on my hard disk right now, and I have no memory of what
the dish was.
					mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib
                                                 Stephen Bloch
                                           sbloch at panther.adelphi.edu
					 http://www.adelphi.edu/~sbloch/
                                        Math/CS Dept, Adelphi University


Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 07:22:17 EDTFrom: kathe1 at juno.com (Kathleen M Everitt)Subject: Re: SC - Wedding Cake L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at ptd.net> writes:>Aoife here, in a small quandry. Friends of mine are having a "period">wedding, during a public demo---they want it to be truly historical, 
>and are researching all the necessary historical details--and have 
>asked me to make the "cake". 
>Problem 1: They're 5th century Christianized Celts (so that>gives us bannocks, right?). 
>Problem 2: Modern wedding cakes are not "period">by any concievable stretch of the imagination.>Lady Aoife FinnGee, I can't remember if I kept the research I did before my SCA weddingmany years ago, but I'll look for it.If I remember correctly, I read that guests brought some sort of cake asa symbol of fertility and presented it to the couple. They were stackedon a platter at the wedding feast. Can't remember the period, but it waslate. Later (out of period) someone got the idea to put icing on thispile of cakes and the tiered wedding cake was created. That's one story.Another was that cakes were brought as fertility gifts but thrown at thebride. Any that landed on her were a sign of children to come. I thinkthat was earlier than the stacking the cakes, but again, I can'tremember. Later that custom became the rice that we throw at weddingstoday. That's all I remember. Hey, it was 18 years ago next week! I'll lookaround and see if I can find any of the references that I used when Iplanned the wedding.Julleran


Date: 14 Jul 1997 09:27:37 -0700
From: "Marisa Herzog" <marisa_herzog at macmail.ucsc.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - Wedding Cake

I remember some mention of a very rich fruit cake (yes fruit cake can be
delicious) as a medievel wedding food in a book about wedding cakes.  Can't
remember the book though :(
brid


Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 09:11:11 -0400
From: karen at georesearch.com (Karen Green)
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Medieval Wedding 2

Jennifer wrote:
>         I would appreciate any other suggestions that would fit in with the
> above and how to place it so that it seems real.  As well I have no idea
> what to serve for the reception that will not scare my guests.  To some
> people medieval cusine is a little frightening.  Thank you

My husband, Lord Gruffudd ap Cadfael, and I got married "medievally"
last April.  Originally we were going to have the ceremony and reception
in the stone lodge of a local country club, but two weeks before the
wedding, the club called to cancel on the lodge; we went with a picnic
pavillion on the club's property instead, and while it was a bit chilly,
there was plenty of space and the view (of the valley, Bull Run, and the
Blue Ridge Mountains) was absolutely gorgeous.

Some of the things we did to make the wedding seem more medieval:

- The entire wedding party (us too!) were garbed in 14th/15th century
costume.  My gown was a full-length light ivory brocade cotehardie which
laced up the back; it was trimmed with a gold looped braid which I
accented with garnets and pearls.  My husband wore a burgundy-colored
houppelande lined with black brocade, trimmed with a gold-and-burgundy
trim.

- The wedding invitations (the "Medieval Fantasy" invitatation with the
knight and lady riding to a castle which can be found in several wedding
invitation catalogs) included the line "Medieval attire admired, but not
required."  A lot of the guests (even the non-SCA folks!) got dressed
up.  Even my grandmother!  :)

- We didn't do the "marching out of the hall under a whole mess o'
swords" bit as both of us are reasonably tall -- could have been quite a
mess ;) That and we got married under a chuppah (Jewish wedding canopy)
held up by the groomsmen and best man, so they would have had to chuck
the chuppah (which would have been an absolute tragedy, as it was
handpainted silk and made by a very dear cousin) and fetch their swords.

- For the ceremony and dancing at the reception, we had a local SCA
music group play (they charged a far too reasonable fee) ;)  While you
may not have the opportunity to go with an early music group, you may
want to look for some CD's of early music to have played during the
ceremony.  You may like some of the CD's put out by a group called
"Cantiga" -- very pleasant medieval-sounding instrumental music.  :)

- In terms of food, we had hired the catering branch of the country
club, and selected a menu that would "feel" medieval without being icky
-- London broil, veggies, etc.  We also had vegetarian lasagne for the
herbivore crowd.

- For the wedding cake, we again went with what the catering branch
could offer.  It tasted nummy :) The cake topper depicted a little pair
of doves in flight.  (Lady Rafn's daughter Chryston asked if she could
eat the candy doves; Lady Gwen explained that they were plastic.)  :) 
There is a cake-topper of a castle out there but neither my husband nor
I liked the look of it very much.  I've seen pictures of medieval
weddings where the cake was figured to look like a castle; this fits in
with the idea of a "subtlety" dessert in wedding feasts.

- You may want to research period wedding feasts -- it's fascinating to
see how they celebrated weddings in this period.  :)

We are also from different backgrounds (I am Jewish, and he was brought
up Lutheran) but we went with a loosely Jewish ceremony.  Even had an
illuminated ketubah (kind of a Jewish wedding contract thingie -- and
it's GORGEOUS!) :) Please let me know if I can be of any further help --
in the meantime I remain

Yours in Service to the Dream,

Karen Larsdatter
  Barony of Ponte Alto, Atlantia
  (mka Mrs. Karen Harris) :)


Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 09:41:38 -0500
From: Gunnora Hallakarva <gunnora at bga.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Medieval Weddings

To add another source of information to the discussion of medieval
weddings, you can dlaso check out my research on the Viking Wedding located
at:

http://www.realtime.com/~gunnora/wedding.htm

Gunnora Hallakarva


To: markh at risc.sps.mot.com
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:00:14 -0700
From: Kathi <britearrow at geocities.com>
Subject: weddings

For those wanting to do the "traditional" wedding cake for their
Medieval/Renaissance wedding(I know, it's not really "period), finding
an appropriate cake-topper can be a problem.  Fellowship Foundry makes a
nice one(http://www.ffoundry.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?Type=Wedding), and
also have goblets and other accesories for weddings.  In absence of
this, you can get the regular toppers, and use a bit of leftover
material from the bride and grooms outfits.  Just cut them to fit, glue
them on (you can even take a snip of hair to make it look more like you),
and you have an reasonable replica of the bride and groom to place on
the cake.

Caitlinn Ingen Brigt/Kat


Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:20:01 -0400
From: "Karen Lyons-McGann" <dvkld.dev at mhs.unc.edu>
Subject: SC - Okay - here goes!

>  I am having a medieval wedding on June 21st.  There will be
>approximately 200 or more people there.  >snip<
>We really don't have much money - it was suggested that we have
>people bring food to share instead of gifts, but I think that sounds
>kinda tacky. If we're having a wedding, we supply the food - (and with
>our friends, the guests supply the entertainment!)
>Cessara ni Rannall

I would suggest that since you know some friends are willing to provide
the entertainment (the tournement) please consider that some guests would
adore to provide at least part of the food, as a gift to you.  Really.  I
would be highly complimented if someone was impressed enough with a dish
to ask me to bring enough to feed their friends and relations.    For
non-traditional weddings, a request that so and so bring enough of (their
specialty) to feed X guests in lieu of a gift  is not uncommon.   If it
really bothers you, offer to defray the costs of groceries.  It might be
best to ask someone familiar with feasts and your friend's specialties
to coordinate the catering effort for you. They could cater the whole
thing.  Or they could simply coordinate the various cooks, dealing with
requesting the dishes and offering grocery money if doing so makes you
feel awkward.  Do beware that a non-SCA friend of relative may hear of
the idea and want to bring Watergate Salad for 200.  Smile and be
gracious.

Anne


Subject: Re: ANST - Fwd: Help
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 98 13:01:56 MST
From: "Casey&Coni" <weed at sage.net>
To: <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

I've done a good deal of research on Italian and German weddings in the 14th
and 15th c.

I found that the following books were fine 'starters' with enough basic
information to reconstruct a fairly accurate picture of how the events
unfolded:

Marriage and the Family in the Middle Ages, Gies&Gies 1987

A History of Private Life vol. II, Aries & Duby 1988

Other people you might wish to consult with are Jovian Skleros seddy at vvm.com
and Lady Zaharra domino7 at texas.net  who are both stewing in research on this
very subject from the Greek Orthodox and Spanish viewpoints, respectively.

Dieterich


Subject: Re: ANST - Fwd: Help
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 98 09:59:59 MST
From: "Mary Temple" <noxcat at hotmail.com>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

Another book that might be helpful is: Giovanni and Lusanna Love and
Marriage in Renaissance Florence by Gene Brucker.

(disclaimer: while I DO own it, I have not yet read it. Something about
mundanity getting in the way.)

Katerine Rowley
Bryn Gwlad, Ansteorra


From: drgnflydsn at aol.com (DrgnflyDsn)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Weddings
Date: 26 Jan 1999 20:09:48 GMT

>Greetings to all, My Lady and I are getting married on April 24th-we are
>doing a "periodish" wedding. Meaning our SCA friends come in garb and >our
>friends and family who are not in the SCA, come in Mundane garb. Our
>outfits are circa 1400. Can anybody outthere give any ideas on some
>ceremonies or music etc.
>Thank You
>Padraig Ruadh Cille Chainnigh
>(Phil Sheridan)

Renaissance magazine had an excellent wedding issue last year that is still
available at http://www.RenaissanceMagazine.com
You can also try the Medieval wedding links page at
http://www.spu.edu/~kst/bib/vendors.html
Ronda
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dragonfly Design
http://members.aol.com/DrgnflyDsn
Masks, Historical Clothing Patterns, Garb


Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 12:07:56 +0000
From: "William T. Fleming" <gorp at erols.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Help needed with Scottish Marriage Customs

> My daughter (who currently lacks access to the net) is doing research on
> Scottish marriage laws and customs.  She's focusing on the similarities and
> differences between Roman Catholic and Protestant practices in the late
> medieval and renaissance periods.  Any help or pointers to available
> materials would be appreciated.
>
> Mikhail

I recomend glancing at Scottish Lore and Folklore by Ronald MacDonald
Douglas.  Scotland still recognizes ancient "irregular" forms of
marriage which other nations outlawed after the Council of Trent.  For
irregular marriage, no clergy is neccesary all one needs to do is to
declare mariage in front of two witnesses, promise marriage before
intercourse, or live with someone as man and wife and gaining the repute
of marriage.

--Ruaidhri


Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 12:12:23 -0500
From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Help needed with Scottish Marriage Customs

Luznicky wrote:
> My daughter (who currently lacks access to the net) is doing research on
> Scottish marriage laws and customs.  She's focusing on the similarities and
> differences between Roman Catholic and Protestant practices in the late
> medieval and renaissance periods.  Any help or pointers to available
> materials would be appreciated.
>
> Thank you
>
> Mikhail

http://www.electricscotland.com/history/social/sh7.html Scottish Weddings
http://www.scot.demon.co.uk/scotfaq.html
http://www.spu.edu/~kst/bib/bib.html
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/5160/weddings.html
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/rialto/idxweddings.html
http://metalab.unc.edu/gaelic/
http://www.dalriada.co.uk/site.htm  search under weddings (3)
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/browse-mixed-new?id=DunMari&tag=public&images=images/modeng&data=/lv1/Archive/mideng-parsed
http://www.abdn.ac.uk/~his016/medieval_scotland.html
http://search.miningco.com/scripts/query70.asp?terms=Weddings&Action=+go+&TopNode=3783&Site=Scottish+Culture&Trail=2544%2B2725%2B2745&SUName=scottishculture&COB=home
http://reenactment.miningco.com/msub29.htm?terms=Weddings&COB=home
http://www.spu.edu/~kst/bib/mrwed.html
http://www.spu.edu/~kst/bib/faqintro.html
http://www.spu.edu/~kst/bib/faq1.html

Magnus


Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 04:49:32 -0600 (CST)
From: "J. Patrick Hughes" <jphughes at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
To: sca-arts at listproc.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Help needed with Scottish Marriage Customs

I am sorry It took me so long to answer this request. Much is possible but
questions need to be addressed first.

The first thing to determine is where, when, and at what social level she
is interested in a Scottish wedding. If it is in the Highlands (post
Viking period) then is should be according to Brehon Law and not religious
at all. If it is in the lowlands then should it be Catholic or Protestant?
Is it to be modeled on a royal wedding (state pageantry evolved) or on a
more folksy family affair on the borders? If Highlands, there is a deal of
information on the Irish-Scottish institutions of marriage and they are
not at all like other church based ceremonies.  We have actual marriage
rites in the prescribed liturgies of both the Catholic Church and the
Protestant Reformed Church. While I do not have such in my personnel
library I would expect to find them at either a good academic library or
at the library of the respective religions seminaries. If it is a Royal
model then the book on City Marriage and Tournament already mentioned is a
start point. Finally for simple lowland family gatherings there is
information on marriage practices in the books on the history of Scottish
dance. I hope this helps.

Charles O'Connor


Subject: Re :ANST - Norse Weddings
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 18:22:56 MST
From: "C. L. Ward" <gunnora at bga.com>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

Ld. Seamus MacDuff asked:
>Does anyone have information on Norse Weddings, if so it would be most
>appreciated.

Yes, in fact I do.  I did a comprehensive research project on the subject
of Norse weddings which has since been used twice that I know of to perform
weddings.

The full text of the paper is located on the Medieval and Renaissance
Weddings Webpage, or better yet you can access it from The Viking Answer
Lady Webpage in the Daily Life Section:

[The new link is: http://www.VikingAnswerLady.com  - Stefan]

Wæs fiu Hæl (Waes Thu Hael)

::GUNNORA::
Gunnora Hallakarva, OL
Baroness to the Court of Ansteorra


From: jdmiller2 at students.wisc.edu (Jennifer/Yana)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: medieval confetti?
Date: 10 Sep 1999 19:34:59 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Madison

>A visitor to my site, having a medieval wedding in a few months, has asked
>me if there is a period equivalent to confetti to throw weddings. Would rice
>have been used in period? Was anything at all thrown?
>
>Marguerite de Bordeaux
>mka Michelle Roberts

In late-period Russia, the couple was showered with hops and money (coins) 
twice, before the ceremony by the groom's mother and then after the ceremony 
by the bride's mother.

See my Lord's article on the subject of Russian weddings at:
http://www.sit.wisc.edu/~jdmiller2/tiart.html
*************************************************************************
Ilyana Barsova (Yana)  jdmiller2 at students.wisc.edu 
http://www.sit.wisc.edu/~jdmiller2 
Slavic Interest Group http://www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschp/slavic.html


From: Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue at thibault.org>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: medieval wedding dress
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 06:45:53 -0500
Organization: Virtue Ventures http://www.virtue.to

> dress that could be worn again at an event as court garb,,with as
> little changes as necissary.  If anyone has any information I would
> greatly appreciat it.

There are two options that I see, depending on what you want for your dress:

1: Make it in "normal" late-period colors and wear it as a wedding dress
(white dresses being a relatively recent phenomenon)

2: Make it of fabrics that take dye well, but in white, and have it
professionally dyed after the wedding.  You could have removable bits,
such as fur or trim, that wouldn't go in the dyebath, and would be
reapplied later.  I recall hearing of one woman who found an
elizabethan-style white wedding dress at a discount store, and had it
professionally dyed: instant garb!


From: "john hentges" <franzvolks at home.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: medieval wedding dress
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 00:23:01 GMT

Genevieve <emeraldmaz at my-deja.com> wrote
> I am looking into making a wedding dress for a wedding in a year or
> so.  My SCA persona is late period French, and I was hoping to make a
> dress that could be worn again at an event as court garb,,with as
> little changes as necissary.  If anyone has any information I would
> greatly appreciat eit.  Thank you!

    I lost my argument with mother dear about a PURPLE wedding dress (Good
Heavens! You DO realize what your grandmother would have to say!) and now I
wish I had stood my ground. For my sister's third wedding (same guy,
different guests) she wore an evergreen cothardie and dove grey cyclas. This
was the mundane "family" wedding.

    My advice is to make that most excellent court garb you have dreamed of
for years (which would be most in period in attitude) and allow yourself to
enjoy YOUR wedding. Not your mother's or anyone else who tries to get behind
the reins of the affair.

    One last thing, though. The first time I had a good argument for
sticking to my guns - We had just spent a week at a friend's house in July,
in Middle Tennessee, without air-conditioning, working on the taffeta/satin
ivory princess cut dress with purple gores and tippetts. Then her husband's
first comment was "Why did you make a floor-length Father Ryan High School
cheerleader's uniform?" Luckily, I did not hit him, she was faster.


Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 14:11:14 EDT
From: Seton1355 at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - non-member submission - Medieval Wedding Sites

Phillipa

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/5079/renwed.html"
Mire's Renaissance Wedding Links
http://www.drizzle.com/~celyn/mrwp/mrwp.html"
Medieval and Renaissance Wedding Page
http://members.tripod.com/adm/popup/roadmap.shtml?939858726330"
Medieval & Renaissance Wedding Rites
http://www.midnightgarden.com/wedding/"
The Medieval & Renaissance Wedding Site
http://tncweddings.women.com/tc/forbride/dedre/00wdse11.htm"
Town & Country Weddings: Find the Dress of Your Dreams
http://aolsearch.aol.com/dirsearch.adp?knf=1&query=wedding+dresses"
AOL Search: Results for wedding dresses 
http://www.bridalzine.com/dress.html"
A perfect dress - choosing your wedding dress


Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 19:47:03 -0800
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: SC - New book available April 2001

Coming soon to a book vendor near you...

Daniel Diehl and Mark Donnelly.
Medieval Celebrations : How to Plan for Holidays, Weddings, and 
Reenactments With Recipes, Customs, Costumes, Decorations, Songs, 
Dances and Games.
Stackpole Books. April 2001.
ISBN: 0811728668.

Now as you can see, this is not yet available - but you can see a 
picture of the cover on amazon.com, bn.com, etc.

The author also wrote these SCA perennials:
1. Constructing Medieval Furniture : Plans and Instructions With 
Historical Notes, 1997.
2. Medieval Furniture: Plans and Instructions for Historical 
Reproductions, 1999.
3. Siege : Castles at War, 1999.


From: Adrienne R. Ferrell [aferrell at texas.net]
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 9:42 PM
To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Ansteorra] White wedding gowns late 1800s

>I also have a question - what colour did Spanish women wear for weddings?
>White is a modern tradition...
>
>Elysia
>(Who needs to know these things... kinda in a hurry!)

Dear Elysia,

     I think that this web site might help you "A Brief History of the
Wedding Dress in Britain "  http://www.geocities.com/e2davies/brides.html.
Although it is the English customs I believe that the bride would wear the
most expensive dress she (her family) could afford. (some things never
change)

"It is a tradition for Spanish brides to carry orange blossoms in their
bouquet. The significance of this dates back to medieval times. According
to Georgina O'Hara, in her book The Bride's Book: A Celebration of Weddings
(Michael Joseph Ltd., London, 1991), "The inclusion of orange blossom in
the bridal wreath or as part of a bouquet dates back to the Saracens,
according to some sources. It came to Europe with the returning Crusaders
who are believed to have witnessed the custom of a bride wearing a garland
- a symbol of maidenhood - of orange blossom on her hair. Orange blossom
stands for chastity and purity and, because the orange blossom tree is an
evergreen, it also stands for everlasting love.""from:
http://www.weddingbells.com/yqa/ethnictraditions.html

Some other links that may be of interest:
Ethnic Wedding Customs
http://members.aol.com/Mjkarl/ethnic.htm

Marriage during the Middle Ages
http://www.medieval-weddings.net/

Seraphina

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	weddings-msg	Page 61 of 62