whips-msg - 2/26/08 Medieval whips. Methods of construction and use. SCA competitions. NOTE: See also the files: leather-msg, punishments-msg, lea-tanning-msg, lucet-cord-msg, sprang-msg, weaving-lnks. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: LdAlexndr at aol.com To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:57:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ANST - Whips in the SCA???? Hi ho!!! My name is HL. Fionnagain Dubh. I was once (you may or may not recall) the Kingdom Bard of Ansteorra. However, that time has passed (An the crowd cheered). My reason for posting here is to generate feedback concerning single tail whips in the SCA. 1.) No, This is not a discussion of perversion or S&M, But a discussion of whips as a period weapon, agricultural tool, and a form of entertainment (The public kind). 2.) Yes, the whip is period, in single and multi-tail form. The Egyptians used multi-tailed, yet cave paintings show long flexible single tailed in use, probably made of vine. The Greeks used single tailed whips made of strips of leather, as did the Romans, who used them as a weapon in the arena and as tools of pleasure (Though the practice is probably older). The Celts used pulverized wood to twist whips, which are the same horse whips and chariot whips refered to in the legends of Cuchalain. Rumor has it the Arabs used a long silk whip, filled with stone weights and capable of beheading a camel. (That cannot be proven, but the rumor itself is period). It wasn't until the late 1700's that braided leather was used in the making of whips. This is where creative anachronism comes into play. 3.) No, I do not expect the whip to ever be welcome on the tourney field, and for good reason. Like axe throwing and dancing, I consider it an active performance art. 4.) Another good reason for this discussion is safety. I have seen many a mercenary or pirate captain in this "let's copy Xena" generation carrying cheap poorly made whips, whips they have no problem swinging in the presence of others. A lack of skill with the weapon combined with a lack of knowledge of this weapon's potential make a dangerous combination. The whip is not taken seriously due to a universal ignorance of it's capabilities. This needs to stop. This is why I teach. What's the general opinion out there, gang? ~Fionnagain. From: KiheBard at aol.com To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 08:23:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: ANST - Whips in the SCA???? > It wasn't until the late 1700's that braided leather was used in the > making of whips. Harrumpf. I doubt very much that *this* contention is either provable, or correct. If the claim is made based upon a particular source, what is the reliability of that source -- and what other conflicting sources may also be cited? Braided leather was used as a covering for many, many less flexible or less abrasion-resistant or otherwise ungainly items. Consider the built-up handles of hair-based flywhisks! Examples of braid overlays I have seen in modern replicas and also in photographs of grave goods / anthropological excavations: as a protective cover and to provide a useful grip for assorted pottery / carry baskets, to improve the grip area of a smooth item, and for insulative purposes (tong handles, firebrand grips). Beyond these, cordage constructed entirely of braided leather is a very common grave find in many cultures. A cluster of thongs individually is are weak, as a group are hard to control, yet braided are strong and quite durable. While _one_ particular source for the "snake", or single-lash bullwhip, might be traced reliably, I do not believe that this is an implement with only a single origin. Too many different cultures developed and used variations upon the lasso, pole-noose, and bolas for me to easily believe that there were no braided leather whips prior to 1600CE. Besides which, what of horsehair or other types of braided materials from which a single lash may be formed? Amra From: Lyonesse To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:15:18 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: ANST - Whips in the SCA???? > It wasn't until the late 1700's that braided leather was used in the > making of whips. Actually the Tatars used short braided whips as part of their armaments in the 10th and 11th centuries as they invaded the Steppes and cities of Medievial and Ancient Russia and the modern day Slavic states. They (almost) never used the whips on their own horses, but used them on the opposition and their horse, to help pull them off or at least spook their animal enough it fled the field of battle. Trishka Makowski Incipient College of Three Bridges From: LdAlexndr at aol.com To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:21:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: ANST - Whips in the SCA???? Fionnagain here again.... Recently, a response concerning my "Whips in the SCA?" question came from Amra, who , concerning my comment on the braided single-tail whip being post 1600, wrote... >I doubt very much that *this* contention is either provable, or correct. >If the claim is made based upon a particular source, what is the > reliability of that source -- and what other conflicting sources may > also be cited? I recieved this info from David Morgan, author of "Whips and Whipmaking", the only comprehensive volume on the subject, according to the Library of Congress. However, he will be the first to state that the facts of whip history are only so much guess-work prior to 1690. >Braided leather was used as a covering for many, many less >flexible or less abrasion-resistant or otherwise ungainly >items. Consider the built-up handles of hair-based flywhisks! >Examples of braid overlays I have seen in modern replicas >and also in photographs of grave goods / anthropological >excavations: as a protective cover and to provide a useful >grip for assorted pottery / carry baskets, >to improve the grip area of a smooth item, >and for insulative purposes (tong handles, firebrand grips). > Beyond these, cordage constructed entirely of braided leather > is a very common grave find in many cultures. A cluster of > thongs individually is are weak, as a group are hard to control, >yet braided are strong and quite durable. Very impressive. I agree with you for the most part, but the fact remains that prior to the 1600's single-tail whips were made of either twisted material ( to include wood ) or were constructed of strips of leather bound in a bolster of leather. No braided single-tail whips, made with underbelly and fall, have so far been found dating back that far. >While _one_ particular source for the "snake", or single-lash > bullwhip, might be traced reliably, I do not believe that this is >an implement with only a single origin. Too many different > cultures developed and used variations upon the lasso, >pole-noose, and bolas for me to easily believe that there >were no braided leather whips prior to 1600CE. What you believe is very sensible, and most would agree with you. I do. I hope a braided whip from period is found soon, I'm sure they existed as well. Until proof is forth-coming, however.... >Besides which, what of horsehair or other types of braided >materials from which a single lash may be formed? Apparently, other materials were used, leather is in question here. You also state,... >SAFETY IN SCA CONTEXT: > I am strongly in favor of safety in whip demonstrations being > improved, and in light of certain recently received information > must also suggest that inappropriate use may be actionable >(could be seen as assault with a weapon). For everyone's >sake, people, NO HUMAN TARGETS -- not even "in fun". Ah! We see eye-to-eye ......However. I wrap and cut targets from assistants who have agreed to do so, and only after a total understanding of the whip's potential has been reached. I am going to limit this to a signed waiver system, thanks to your convictions. >As a potential competition, I can think of a number of >possible sub-events: accuracy, speed, sound production, >"modified biathlon" obstacle courses, and so forth. SAFE >events, compared to some yahoo deciding to try an >impromptu whip-crack in the middle of a crowded >merchant area.... Whip competitions are based on accuracy, multiple-cracking, double-handed work, knowledge of the basic and advanced lashes, and entertainment value. You might want to explain this "biatholon" idea, sounds interesting. Sound production is a BAD idea. This gets people to yanking back on their whips, altering the taper, and possibly hurting themselves. A properly thrown whip will crack better then most suspect, especially if it's made well. ~Fionnagain. From: KiheBard at aol.com To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:38:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: ANST - Whips in the SCA???? > You might want to explain this "biatholon" idea, sounds interesting. Modern Olympic ski biathlon combines cross-country skiing and rifle marksmanship (simulating military mountain troop or hunting training as an athletic event). I envisioned this initially as a combination foot-race and target accuracy event, conducted over a mild obstacle course. On the "human target" aspects: for controlled demos, the signed waiver / informed consent might prove workable. Would it not prove safer in the long term to develop a whipmaster's equivalent of the quintain, with bulldog clips or similar constructs to hold paper targets? Just some additional thoughts. (And I will continue to search for pre-1600 examples of braid, in either preserved artifacts, archeological finds, or descriptives. We've had one other person -- apologies, name has already escaped my cheese-for-brain -- who noted the nomadic invaders using whips in warfare around turn of the last millenium. I remain hopeful...) Amra From: Ann Fairburn Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Leather weaving: whips, floggers etc... Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 22:50:46 -0500 On 17 May 2000 11:20:40 GMT, demarice at aol.com (Demarice) wrote: >Does anyone have info pertaining to weaving strips of leather for the handles >of whips, floggers, crops etc? have a friend who needs some info, and i knew >someone on this list might know..... Try looking for books on leather braiding or whip making. The Leather Factory may have something. Also, a book on lanyards made with that plastic lace may have info on round braids. You could pick up something like that at Hobby Lobby. A good textile book on braids should have info that could be used for leather as well. The book that I have is called Leather Braiding by Bruce Grant. It was published in 1961 by the Cornell Maritime Press. It shows a 4 strand Round Braid ending with a Turk's head terminal.The turk's Head is worked at the end of the wooden core of the handle. It is made in exactly the same way the square lanyards are made. Richenda From: Steven Weidner Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Leather weaving: whips, floggers etc... Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 13:29:59 GMT Organization: Time Warner Road Runner - Albany NY Demarice wrote: > Does anyone have info pertaining to weaving strips of leather for the handles > of whips, floggers, crops etc? have a friend who needs some info, and i knew > someone on this list might know..... If you're looking for books on the subject, try www.davidmorgan.com They're the folks who supplied the whips for the latest Zorro movie... look in the braided goods section. Do be careful though, if you phone in your order, as they frown upon any use of these items (and knowledge of their manufacture) in sexual settings, and will refuse to sell them to you. Probably best to do online ordering. Steen Karlson, Shire of Anglespur, House Regnesfolc Path: be1.texas.rr.com!cyclone.austin.rr.com!news.rr.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!postnews.google.com!b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail From: "celia" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Utensyle of Kytchen Disciplynne Date: 8 Aug 2006 23:11:48 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 36 Message-ID: <1155103908.321964.163210 at b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.254.128.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Trace: posting.google.com 1155103913 14550 127.0.0.1 (9 Aug 2006 06:11:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse at google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 06:11:53 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: User-Agent: G2/0.2 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-GB; rv:1.8.0.6) Gecko/20060728 Firefox/1.5.0.6,gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe) Complaints-To: groups-abuse at google.com Injection-Info: b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com; posting-host=62.254.128.5; posting-account=j0x_VA0AAAD9y7d6m4gc-Ob-7ucabQ33 Xref: be1.texas.rr.com rec.org.sca:356583 D. Glenn Arthur Jr. wrote: > In article , > Tim McDaniel wrote: > >effective way to draw blood. That's a danger from a sanitation point > >of view: how do you clean the cowhide? what if you then use it on > >another person? > > As I recall from discussions in a.s.b before folks migrated to > s.s.b-b, the answer is that you try to find a not-too-easily-shocked > dry-cleaner, if you plan to use it on more than one person. > > (I would attempt an <> here, but I doubt I'll get > away with it ... > > >not to mention scattering human blood in the kitchen. > > Hmm. That was a hazard I don't recall being discussed back > when I was hanging out there. Might be a show-stopper. > The whip being used is the typical three thong whip used in the middle Ages by drivers of trade vehicles and some passenger wagons. The usual method of driving more than one horse was to ride one of the lead horses and carry such a whip to control its partner. This was easier than driving from the box seat as the coupling of reins was in its infancy. The whips illustrated are roughly made out of cheap leather. I'm obviously in the wrong business. (I am a professional whip maker - traditional carriage driving whips that is.) The Old English word for 'kitchen' was 'cycene' Now if anyone wants a quality whip..... Celia From ??? at ??? Fri Jan 01 00:00:00 1999 Path: be1.texas.rr.com!cyclone.austin.rr.com!news.rr.com!tornado.texas.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail From: Chris Zakes Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Utensyle of Kytchen Disciplynne Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 66 Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 11:37:53 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.25.188.242 X-Complaints-To: abuse at rr.com X-Trace: tornado.texas.rr.com 1154691473 66.25.188.242 (Fri, 04 Aug 2006 06:37:53 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 06:37:53 CDT Organization: Road Runner High Speed Online http://www.rr.com Xref: be1.texas.rr.com rec.org.sca:356569 On 3 Aug 2006 19:10:09 -0500, an orbital mind-control laser caused tmcd at panix.com (Tim McDaniel) to write: >Thank Ghu I'm far from Mistress Kay of Tria Asterium, my dear liege >lady the chef, and that I don't volunteer in kitchens here. > > >That page is NOT WORK SAFE. >There's a woodcut apparently from the original source. The text is > > Utensyle of Kytchen Disciplynne > > An actual medieval device, which can be seen in the book > 'Kuchenmeisterei', (Augsburg, 1507) and revived by Leatherbeaten > almost 500 years later. The Utensyle of Kytchen Disciplynne was > how Bavarians of the middle ages ensured dishes were done to > stringent criteria of cleanliness and celerity. Today's Utensyle > is a three tailed knotted flogger made of light belting > cowhide. The knots are dense Diamond Button knots, each compacting > six inches of leather into a knot barely 1/2" in diameter. The > tails are attached to a relatively long handle, decorated with > three leather collars, accented top and bottom with bands of > silver wire. Very eyecatching, and exactly what Cook needs when > one of the brainless kitchen drones sneezes into the Master's > tortus of fysshe. > > Cdn $107.75 > >I haven't checked the Oxford English Dictionary, but I suspect that >"Utensyle of Kytchen Disciplynne" is only their attempt at Ye Olde >Spellynge and doesn't represent real OED-attested period spellings, or >even whether the word concepts are period in English. (For one thing, >the original is purportedly in German.) > >Anyone know whether the book actually exists and has this picture? Google lists several hits for "Kuchenmeisterei" from around that time period. I haven't gone throught them in detail to see if that picture is accurate or not. >I suspect it's not particular safe in use, except by someone >experienced with similar devices, as I've heard that scourges are an >effective way to draw blood. That's a danger from a sanitation point >of view: how do you clean the cowhide? what if you then use it on >another person? not to mention scattering human blood in the kitchen. >Might be best only as a visual accessory. > >Many other devices on the same page. I wouldn't have thought that >something called "Pom Poms d'Amour" could be described as >"nightmare". > >Danet de Lincoln And *what* were you doing on such a site in the first place??? -Tivar Moondragon Ansteorra "That's what Jagulars always do," said Pooh, much interested. "They call 'Help! Help!' and then when you look up they drop on you." "I'm looking down," cried Piglet loudly. -A.A. Milne, "The House at Pooh Corner" Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 11:58:38 +0930 From: Nigel Castle Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Utensyle of Kytchen Disciplynne Danet de Lincoln wrote: > I haven't checked the Oxford English Dictionary, but I suspect that > "Utensyle of Kytchen Disciplynne" is only their attempt at Ye Olde > Spellynge and doesn't represent real OED-attested period spellings, or > even whether the word concepts are period in English. (For one thing, > the original is purportedly in German.) I've just checked the OED, and the results are: "Utensyle" is an attested spelling, dating from the late 15th and early 16th centuries. "Kytchen" has a single citation, from 1552, but does not look like an unusual variant of a word which had already been spelled many different ways until then. "Disciplynne" is not listed, but "disciplyne" (with one 'n') is, dating from the late 14th to the early 16th centuries. So it's not quite as awful an attempt at Ye Olde Spellynge [tm] as it first appears. It's certainly better than some of the atrocities the SCA has adopted. :) Uberto Renaldi Edited by Mark S. Harris whips-msg Page 9 of 10