p-swears-msg - 3/17/08
Period swears, oaths and insults. euphemisms.
NOTE: See also the files: p-songs-msg, languages-msg, Latin-msg, Latin-online-art, P-Polit-Songs-art.
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From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: period swears
Date: 10 Nov 1993 02:25:21 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Jeff Suzuki <jeffs at math.bu.EDU> wrote:
>Here's a novel question that came up: period swears. Hey, if we're
>trying to get into persona, why not discover how your persona would
>have reacted to something?
>
>Anyone want to supply other epithets?
The various characters in the medieval Welsh stories collectively known
as the Mabinogi mostly go around swearing "I rof i a Duw" (Between me
and God!), but my favorite from this source is slightly more long-
winded:
Taw hyd y mynnych, ni bu fusgrellach gwr ar ei synwyr ei hun nog ry
fuost ti.
"Be silent as long as you like, never was there a feebler man in his
own wits than you have been."
Keridwen f. Morgan Glasfryn; West, Mists, Mists
From: moonman at camelot.bradley.edu (Craig Levin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: period swears
Date: 9 Nov 1993 22:32:37 -0600
Organization: House of the Moss Rose
hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones) writes:
>>Here's a novel question that came up: period swears. Hey, if we're
>>trying to get into persona, why not discover how your persona would
>>have reacted to something?
>>Anyone want to supply other epithets?
The Elizabethan bravos are said to have said: "God send me no
more need of thee!"
Cristobal Colon's oath of choice, according to his son,
was: "God take you!"
--
Craig\The Moonman\Levin Pedro de Alcazar
moonman at camelot.bradley.edu Shire of Dernehealde, Midrealm
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ephraim at NCoast.ORG (Kenneth Robinson)
Subject: Re: period swears
Organization: North Coast Public Access *NIX, Cleveland, OH
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 23:54:00 GMT
Unto the Rialto doth Ld. Ephraim ben Shlomo send Greetings:
Regarding period swears, I don't know if this is quite period -- it
may be 100 years or so too late, for all I know. But I recall it
vividly. Perhaps someone knows if it's period?
I recall it as follows:
"Cursed be the blacksmith that forged the axe which felled the tree
from which was carved the headboard of the bed of the parents of
the driver of the carriage in which your mother and father first met."
Actually sounds kind of silly-Victorian, come to think of it. Enjoy.
--Ephraim.
From: mary at ossi.com (Mary Seabrook)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: period swears
Date: 10 Nov 1993 09:04:54 -0800
Organization: Fujitsu Open Systems Solutions, Inc.
In article <9311091711.AA15010 at math.bu.edu>,
Jeff Suzuki <jeffs at math.bu.EDU> wrote:
>
>Here's a novel question that came up: period swears. Hey, if we're
>trying to get into persona, why not discover how your persona would
>have reacted to something?
>
>Anyone want to supply other epithets?
I always rather liked the shakespearian
Macbeth, Act V, Scene III
"The devil damn thee black, thou cream-faced loon!
Where gott'st thou that goose look?"
It just appeals to my sense of the ridiculous I suppose!
Elizabeth Fairweather
--
mary at ossi.com
+1 510 652 6200 x 124
From: DDF2 at cornell.edu (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: period swears
Date: 11 Nov 1993 05:08:16 GMT
Organization: Cornell Law School
As I recall, William the Marshall's favorite was: "By the legs of Jesus."
David/(Cariadoc)
DDF2 at Cornell.Edu
From: sclark at epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: period swears
Date: 11 Nov 1993 12:26:24 -0500
Organization: EPAS Computing Facility, University of Toronto
Greetings---
Both the Chaucerian and Elizabethan Handbooks include sections on
insults and oaths, from mild to strong.
My favourite is to give someone the "fig of Spain", a rude gesture
equivalent to "the finger" made by forming a fist with the thumb through
the first or second fingers.
at $^%^*ly,
Nicolaa/Susan
sclark at epas.utoronto.ca
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Subject: Re: period swears
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1993 19:51:40 GMT
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research
KENT Fellow, I know thee.
OSWALD What dost thou know me for?
KENT A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a
base, proud, shallow, beggarly, three-suited,
hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a
lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson,
glass-gazing, super-serviceable finical rogue;
one-trunk-inheriting slave; one that wouldst be a
bawd, in way of good service, and art nothing but
the composition of a knave, beggar, coward, pandar,
and the son and heir of a mongrel bitch: one whom I
will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest
the least syllable of thy addition.
OSWALD Why, what a monstrous fellow art thou, thus to rail
on one that is neither known of thee nor knows thee!
KENT What a brazen-faced varlet art thou, to deny thou
knowest me! Is it two days ago since I tripped up
thy heels, and beat thee before the king? Draw, you
rogue: for, though it be night, yet the moon
shines; I'll make a sop o' the moonshine of you:
draw, you whoreson cullionly barber-monger, draw.
(Wm. Shakespeare, "King Lear")
One could do worse than learn from a master.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord mittle at watson.ibm.com
From: STEWARTL at wood-emh1.ARmy.MIL (LOU STEWART)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Period Swears
Date: 12 Nov 1993 10:44:25 -0500
Organization: The Internet
Chaucer's works in the original Middle English are rich in expressions
that relate to deity, someone's physical characteristics, parentage,
and ultimate destination. Absolon's comments when he realized what
he had kissed, or Symkyn's remarks after he learned his guest had
sported with his daughter are heartfelt expressions of emotion. All
of the Chaucer "translations" I have read are very tame, and lacking
the spice of the original. It's a good bet that the _Decameron_ is
equally eloquent if read in the original Italian; however, the English
version is very bland.
Luigsech ni Ifearnain, Calanais Nuadh, Calontir
From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: period swears
Date: 12 Nov 93 18:06:54 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
In article <1993Nov12.070049.24904 at muss.cis.mcmaster.ca>,
Diana Parker <parkerd at mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca> wrote:
>
>Unfortunately I no longer remember the Arabic wording for this one but how
>about, "May a thousand camels defecate on the graves of your ancestors."
I understand there's a Russian one that says "Your brother and sister are
committing incest on your mother's grave."
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu
From: harald at matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Harold Kraus Jr)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: period swears
Date: 12 Nov 1993 13:09:26 -0600
Organization: Kansas State University
The good Fujimoto asked:
>Here's a novel question that came up: period swears. Hey, if we're
>trying to get into persona, why not discover how your persona would
>have reacted to something?
>For example, Fujimoto might label someone "low class" or "stupid" (in
>the appropriate language, of course).
The Volga Germans I grew up with had a number of swears, many of
which should go back to Germany of the 1700's at the latest.
I feel comforable using the two in persona:
Swine Hund! (Schvine Hoont) = low class
Dummer Shicher [sp?] (dooma shiesha) == stupid
Another Volga German coloquialism out of use by my childhood was
"He swears like a Turk." I figure that this would be OOP for an
SCA German persona. Would it?
Harald Isenross, Spinning Winds, Calontir, harald at matt.ksu.ksu.edu
From: cjcannon at ucdavis.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: RE: Period Swears
Date: 12 Nov 93 11:07:07 GMT
Organization: The Internet
" 'Od's bodkins!" ought not to be omitted--also Wm. Shakespeare, as was a
friend's favorite pejoritive phrase: "Out, out, cursed weed, that roots
thyself in Lethe's shore!" I forget which work(s) they're used in.--cjc
From: slv3m at cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: period swears
Date: 13 Nov 93 13:31:26 MDT
Organization: Utah State University
In article <2c0n16INNb3g at matt.ksu.ksu.edu>, harald at matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Harold Kraus Jr) writes:
> The good Fujimoto asked:
>
>>Here's a novel question that came up: period swears. Hey, if we're
>>trying to get into persona, why not discover how your persona would
>>have reacted to something?
>
> The Volga Germans I grew up with had a number of swears, many of
> which should go back to Germany of the 1700's at the latest.
> I feel comforable using the two in persona:
>
> Swine Hund! (Schvine Hoont) = low class
>
> Dummer Shicher [sp?] (dooma shiesha) == stupid
>
> Another Volga German coloquialism out of use by my childhood was
> "He swears like a Turk." I figure that this would be OOP for an
> SCA German persona. Would it?
>
>
> Harald Isenross, Spinning Winds, Calontir, harald at matt.ksu.ksu.edu
Harald,
You forgot the literal translations... "Pig Dog" and "Dumb Shit".
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that's right.
Gillian
From: fnklshtn at axp1.acf.nyu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: period swears
Date: 13 Nov 1993 23:36:50 GMT
Organization: New York University, NY, NY
In article <2c0jbu$7fb at agate.berkeley.edu>, djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>In article <1993Nov12.070049.24904 at muss.cis.mcmaster.ca>,
>Diana Parker <parkerd at mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca> wrote:
>>
>>Unfortunately I no longer remember the Arabic wording for this one but how
>>about, "May a thousand camels defecate on the graves of your ancestors."
>
>I understand there's a Russian one that says "Your brother and sister are
>committing incest on your mother's grave."
Do you mean in period?
It certainly does not seem to exhist in modern usage.
I've been around some seriously foul mouthed russians but I never heard that
one.
On that note -
I don't have documentation for it in period but a popular thing to call a
person is "Herod", the russians pronounce the name "Yirod" - the word implies
cruelty or nastiness.
It seems logical that it was used for a very long time -
It's been over eighty years since the revolution. Most russians know nothing
of Christian stories or Jewish history from that time period. For the insult to
survive strongly in common usage to this day, it must have been well set into
the psyche of the russian people. I'm guessing at least 15th century.
Yes No?
Nahum
>
>
>Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
>Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley
>Argent, a cross forme'e sable djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu
From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: period swears
Date: 14 Nov 1993 06:34:26 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
In article <2c3r2i$1ss at cmcl2.NYU.EDU>, <fnklshtn at axp1.acf.nyu.edu> wrote:
>In article <2c0jbu$7fb at agate.berkeley.edu>, djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>>
>>I understand there's a Russian one that says "Your brother and sister are
>>committing incest on your mother's grave."
>
>Do you mean in period?
>It certainly does not seem to exist in modern usage.
>I've been around some seriously foul mouthed russians but I never heard that
>one.
I got that from Duke Siegfried von Ho"flichskeit, who back in the year
AS -2 or so was stationed in West Berlin and had all sorts of adventures.
Maybe he ran into some fouler-mouthed Russians than you did.
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu
From: kiev at ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Carl Alexander)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Swears
Date: 14 Nov 1993 17:50:32 GMT
Organization: MIT
In article <9311121512.AA25106 at NISC.SRI.COM> STEWARTL at wood-emh1.ARmy.MIL (LOU STEWART) writes:
>Chaucer's works in the original Middle English are rich in expressions ...
> ...
> It's a good bet that the _Decameron_ is
>equally eloquent if read in the original Italian; however, the English
>version is very bland.
>Luigsech ni Ifearnain, Calanais Nuadh, Calontir
There are many English transations of Boccaccio, and most are, indeed,
terribly bland. I recommend the Musa & Bondanella translation (Penguin);
their work reflects no prudery at all and is genuinely readable and
funny throughout.
--Alexander of Kiev
Carolingia, East Kingdom
kiev at athena.mit.edu
From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Swearing
Date: 11 Nov 1993 20:04:19 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Broad but useful generalization: Catholic swearing is blasphemous;
Protestant swearing is scatological.
Caveat: the habits do take a while to change. Thus the late 16th
century Englishman, who is a Protestant now, will probably still
swear "By God's wounds!" like his Catholic grandfather. Whereas their
20th-century descendant will say "Oh, shit" or something.
Period, blasphemous swearing. Any holy name. God, Jesus, Mary,
any saint. Any of their body parts or attributes. Any of the
instruments of Passion or martyrdom. Anything that would be in bad
taste to a pious Catholic--otherwise it wouldn't be swearing,
would it.
Where it is coming from is that you would swear by God, or a saint,
or by a holy relic, or any other sacred concept to which you were
devoted, if you were taking a very serious oath.
And then it degenerates into mere swearing--e.g., "By the Bleeding
Body of Christ, I swear this ale isn't fit to drink."
Real period, real offensive. Particularly if you are in the company
of real Catholics, or are one; I am, and I found the foregoing paragraph
rather difficult to type.
Better to go with some saint's attributes, real or invented. "By Saint
Catherine's Wheel" refers to the instrument of her martyrdom.&n