ships-msg - 1/24/08 Ships and shipbuilding. Sailor's food. Privateers. NOTE: See also these files: pirates-msg, med-ships-art, ships-bib, nav-inst-msg, boat-building-msg, Seakeeping-p1-art, Seakeeping-p2-art, rope-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: moonman at camelot.bradley.edu (Craig Levin) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Mariners, ships and like that Date: 4 Oct 1993 18:04:09 -0500 Organization: House of the Moss Rose uf380 at freenet.Victoria.BC.CA (William Underhill) writes: >To any gentles out there who share this interest, >From Lord William the Mariner, greetings, salutations and salute >the brow... Salutations, fellow waterman! >Are there any gentles out there who have an interest in naval and >marine history? By this I mean anything from marine architecture >to naval battles, from navigation to techniques of sail - in shoret >(sp) anything connected with ships and sailing? I'd sure like to hear >from you. Also, does anyone out there (interested or not) know of >some good sources for research material (don't anyone say "Try your >local library, please. Despite the fact that we have a naval facility >just a loud shout down the road from here, you'd think ships never >existed until the turn of the century, to judge by what they have >in the local public and university libraries. >William the Mariner Sure. I can come up with a few titles & authors right off the bat. Anything by S. E. Morison, is good. Not only is he a Harvard historian, he is a dedicated yachtsman, so anything he says about the voyages of exploration is pretty much verifiable-he's sailed along their routes, and understands the problems of the sailor. Hakluyt's PRINCIPALL NAVIGATIONS is one of the best Tudor annals of exploration. John Hale's another excellent author, as is J. H. Parry. There's also H. A. Calahan, but you ought to take whatever he says with a _large_ grain of sea salt. David Howarth's work, SOVEREIGN OF THE SEAS, covers all of period England, and can be extrapolated to the rest of period North Europe. Pedro de Alcazar -- Craig\The Moonman\Levin Pedro de Alcazar moonman at camelot.bradley.edu Shire of Dernehealde, Midrealm From: moonman at camelot.bradley.edu (Craig Levin) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Mariners, ships and like that Date: 4 Oct 1993 23:01:41 -0500 Organization: House of the Moss Rose blaxson at shade.UWaterloo.ca (Brian A.Laxson) writes: >BTW Does anyone know of the capacity for cargo of late-period wooden >ships. (I.e. 17 th century Galleons) My "local gathering of books" >listed several launch weights but no references to the CARGO after crew, >cannons, food stores etc. Unfortunately, they did not think in terms of cargo tonnage as we do. In fact, David Howarth, in his excellent book SOVEREIGNS OF THE SEA, more or less admits that the the value of a "ton" varied from time to time. But, if what we can glean from marine archaeology is correct, by 1415, ships as large as 1400 tons were being constructed. However, these were very rare-in fact, they were built by Henry V for his French wars. More typical vessels were in the 80-550 ton range, in the 1550's. -- Craig\The Moonman\Levin Pedro de Alcazar moonman at camelot.bradley.edu Shire of Dernehealde, Midrealm Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: mikes at silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Michael L. Squires) Subject: Re: Mariners, ships and like that Summary: Chaucer and William Bourne Keywords: navigation Organization: Indiana University Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1993 04:59:53 GMT >>Are there any gentles out there who have an interest in naval and >>marine history? By this I mean anything from marine architecture Chaucer wrote a little book on the use of the astrolabe; I got a copy from the Folger very cheaply. William Bourne's Regiment for the Sea was published about 1570 and was a standard text for navigation into the 17th century. There are also a number of 16th century English manuals on cannon, but I haven't seen them. The Hakluyt Society published the Regiment and a number of other books on similar topics. They should be in a big library. From: huff at bronze.lcs.mit.EDU (Robert Huff) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Mariners, ships and like that Date: 5 Oct 1993 17:13:57 -0400 My local library has a really neat (if post-Restoration) book called _Deane's Doctrine_, a reprint of a manual by Sir John Deane. It's sort of a price guide/mil-spec/architects meta-manual on how to build warships. (This is from memory of about two years ago - permission to quote me is not granted ....) Diego Mundoz Carolingia Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (michael squires) Subject: Re: Mid 11c. Ships Organization: Indiana University Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1993 16:41:18 GMT > Greetings. Are there any ship pilots resting here at the bridge? I am > looking for information regarding merchant ships mainly sailing the English > channel in the 11c. Any literary refrences would be helpful. Look up the name "Bass" in your local card catalog. He is an important underwater archaeologist and has written or co-authored books on shipping. I have a table-top book which shows photos and reconstructions of ships from the bronze age to the Vasa which he authored. -- Michael L. Squires, Ph.D Manager of Instructional Computing, Freshman Office, Chemistry Department, IU Bloomington, IN 47405 812-855-0852 (o) 81-333-6564 (h) mikes at indiana.edu, mikes at ucs.indiana.edu, or mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu From: james at nucleus.cuc.ab.CA (James Prescott) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Mid 11c. Ships Date: 22 Dec 1993 17:47:52 -0500 Organization: Atomic Data Communications Try: Lewis, A.R. and Runyan, T.J. European Naval and Maritime History, 300-1500 Indiana University Press 1990 ISBN 0-253-20573-5 (pbk.) - Thorvald Grimsson/James Prescott (james at nucleus.cuc.ab.ca) From: dickeney at access2.digex.net (Dick Eney) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Drakkar Date: 3 Feb 1994 21:26:38 -0500 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA Peter Rose wrote: >Does anyone know what a Drakkar is? I know it's some kind of boat, >but that's about it. > --Azelin It's the rowing galley used as a warship by the Vikings (as contrasted with the "roundships" used as merchantmen). Means "dragon"; also spelled drekkar; latter spelling is that used for the newsletter of Storvik in Atlantia (storvik = "great bay"). The Longship Company of the Markland Militia has a reconstructed Viking longship, a drakkar, and named "Fyrdraca" ("dragon of the war-band"). She normally cruises with six oars manned on a side but can, I believe, accomodate twenty (10 a side) plus a handful of passengers and everybody's gear. 'Nuf for now? |-- Vuong Manh (dickeney at access.digex.com) Storvik, Atlantia | Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: clevin at oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Craig Martin Levin) Subject: Re: Medieval Sea Ports Organization: Ohio University CS Dept,. Athens Date: Sat, 9 Apr 1994 17:21:57 GMT Joseph Heck wrote: >What were the common sea ports along the 'irish sea basin'. I would assume >Dublin would be right up there, as perhaps Barmouth... but does anyone know >the other ports - specifically in Ireland & Wales? Or, for that matter, >where I could find out? The Irish Sea wasn't much of a trade route, as compared to the Mediterranean or even the Narrow Seas. I think your best bet is a book by the title of A NAVAL HISTORY OF ENGLAND, by G. J. Marcus, but even he though he's "comprehensive", says little about the Irish Sea. Maybe you might try poking around in the index of the Mariner's Mirror, which is a great magazine for the study of maritime history. -- Craig Levin Pedro de Alcazar Ohio University History Department Shire of Dernehealde clevin at oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu Midrealm Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: ab575 at FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Rebecca Cairns) Subject: Mary Rose Report Organization: The National Capital FreeNet, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 18:29:10 GMT Isabella sends greetings unto all gathered on the bridge this fine day: As previously promised, here is Betsy True's report on the Mary Rose lecture given by Ann Stirland last Thursday in Madison, WI. The report is quite detailed and definitely of interest to readers of the Rialto. For those who are interested, Betsy also posted an encoded file that is the picture of "an orate ship" which may or may not be the Mary Rose. This graphic was encoded using BinHex 4.0 for the MAC. To save bandwidth, I won't post this file but if anyone is interested, they can drop me a line and I'll e-mail it to them directly. If any in this forum also attended the lecture and wish to add their own report, I'd be interested to see it, as would others, I'm sure. --------------------------- Begin Included Message --------------------------- Newsgroups: bit.listserv.scuba-l From: btrue at MACC.WISC.EDU Subject: LONG: account of Mary Rose lecture Date: Mon May 2 19:34:33 1994 An account of Ann Stirlind's lecture on the Wreck of the Mary Rose The Mary Rose and her Crew: The Manning, Sinking and Raising of King Henry the VIII's Flagship Ann Stirland, University College London, Editor, International Journal of Osteoarchaeology Ann Stirland's background is as a physical anthropologist. A more complete description of artifacts is given in the book of similar name by Margory Rule, published in 1982 by Windward Press. When Henry VIII came to the throne in 1509 he inherited 5 ships and set about building a navy with the ambition of reclaiming France. The Mary Rose was named after a favorite sister, her keel laid in 1511, sank in 1545, raised and refitted in 1546 to be a warship. Three named personnel were Sir George Carou, (Admiral?) Thomas Spait, Shipmaster, and Sir Thomas Windam, Captain. The crew consisted of soldiers (gunners and archers) under the captain and sailors under the master's direction for a total of 415 people. In the only existing illustration done of her from 1546, she is shown to be a 4 masted barque, about 600 tons, with two castles (bow and stern), refitted with guns. There are several rows of gun ports along sides, the lower set quite close to the water level. (90 guns were later found.) A tent of heavy netting is stretched over the tops of the castles, presumed to be an anti-boarding device and is believed to have trapped many of the men during sinking (the only 30 survivors believed to have been in the rigging). On a calm morning in July, the Mary Rose sailed out of Portsmouth harbor into the Isle of Wight sound to do battle. She turned to starboard to present her broadside guns, heeled over and sank very suddenly in 40 fee of water without a shot fired. She came to rest at 60o angle in soft silt. An attempt was made by an Italian team to raise her but they only succeeded in pulling her masts out. Over time the tides and storms filled her in and eroded away the exposed port side, a shelly sea bed was laid down over all. Her exact location was lost over time until 1980's when amateur archeologist located her and this was confirmed by side scanning equipment. The sound is contaminated by effluent from seaside towns (conger eels mentioned), low viz and generally unpleasant to dive in. Exploration and excavation of this site was accelerated using local divers (including Prince Charles). A decision was made to raise the wreck. The Royal Engineers made a plan to place a sling around her and raise her into a cradle on a barge and this was done on live TV (with mishap). She now can be viewed in a Portsmouth museum undergoing a 20 year conservation plan. Her significance as a wreck is due to the fact that she is the only Tudor warship found. Although nothing on this ship has the name "Mary Rose", archeologists are quite sure of her identity because of the ornateness and elaborateness of the artifacts and the presence of Henry VIII's insignia on some guns. The planking construction shows both clinker style (overlapping) in her older construction and the newer carvel style (butt joints, end-to-end) in the parts that were modified when she was made a warship. The carvel planking allowed them to make gun ports with doors that sealed better when shut, and generally was easier to seal. Some of these were no more than one meter from the water level and her sinking is thought to be caused by shipping water during that starboard turn with the gun ports open. Of the 90 guns found, one was 12 feet long, some weighed 2 tons, were in a range of sizes, including a smaller brass swivel gun. Some were quite ornate and had a Tudor rose insignia. Items found: molds and cannon ball shot of various sizes, novel anti-personnel missiles of flint shards wrapped in light wood, carved linstocks (to light the cannons), English long bows (of yew wood from other parts of world), boxes of arrows in silk bindings (no flights or points), leather circles with holes (thought to be arrow spacers or a round of ammo unit.). The bows are remarkable in that they are of extraordinary draw weight. Modern bows are at 40-60 lbs. Of these, most were at least 125 lbs, a few at 80 lbs, and three at 180 lbs (had to be sitting to use). This is beyond most modern athletes ability to draw, a record mentioned was about 80 lbs. Ann mentioned that all able bodied men of that age were supposed to be practiced at long bow from the age of 6 onward. The site was well preserved by the anaerobic environment of the silt. Other artifacts included: Ship's bell (brass?), block and tackle (wooden), tools (wooden, metal), ship's compass (metal), carpenters tools (wooden, metal), lantern (wooden), dishes (wooden), spoons (wooden), bottles, musical instruments, pewter plate ware, tankard (or tyg, wooden), bowl (elm) with personal mark, leather jerkin, leather shoes (with complete feet still in them as bones), combs (with nit's eggs), pepper mill with pepper corns. The barber-surgeon's quarters held an oak chest of tools of his trade. Pottery of various sorts, i.e.. bleeding bowls, knives and saws, urethral syringe (for treatment of gonorrhea with mercury) general anesthetic (mallet!), velvet cap (as seen in a Hans Holbein painting of a barber-surgeon Human remains study was immensely difficult because of the extent of mixing of body parts.totally commingled burial. Ann was impressed, though, by the pristine condition of the bones (muscle insertions very clear) due to the anaerobic environment of silt. She estimated that she has 92 fairly complete skeletons and a sample of a total of 179 bodies. There was bony evidence of battle injuries, occupational stresses and diet. She was impressed that there were few fractures in the collection of bones: 3 ribs (they likely wore half armor), 11 skulls (healed depressed fractures), a nose fracture, a couple of cases of healed child hood rickets and an avulsion fracture of the tibia (muscular pulling of bone). Bony avulsion fracture of tibia was similar to same occurring when one jumps down to a surface moving upward (like a ship deck). One unusual spinal lumbar area showed overgrowth locking of articular surfaces. She postulated might be from working in a low ceilinged gun bay (construction showed to be lower than average height of men) hauling great weight of cannon where the added stress of having to work slightly bent over would show in the bones. She felt the shoulders showed stress of lifelong archery practice from her research into Olympic athletes' injuries: 14.5% unjoined acromium (?) where 3% is normal. One skull had a neat healed impression of a bodkin armor piercing arrowhead point in the cranium, a possible shot from above and through an inadequate helmet. Ann theorizes that these men were probably healthier and larger in stature than the normal population of the time. They were all males, ages ranging from late teens to over 40, one 10 year old, possibly a cabin boy. Because of the hosts of people coming forward spuriously claiming descendancy and reburial, the caretakers of these remains have chosen to keep a low profile and to only make them available for anthropologists' study, so they are not on display. Betsy True, Medical Illustrator Medical Illustration, Univ. of WI-Madison H6/134 CSC 608-263-6028 btrue at macc.wisc.edu ---------------------------- End Included Message ---------------------------- In service to the Dream, *---------------------------------------------------------------------------* * SCA: Isabella Oakwood | * * Barony of Skraeling Althing, | "I hear and I forget, * * Ealdormere, Midrealm | I see and I remember, * * MKA: Rebecca Cairns | I do and I understand." * * Kanata, Ontario Canada | - Confucius. * * NET: ab575 at FreeNet.carleton.ca | * *---------------------------------------------------------------------------* Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (michael squires) Subject: Re: steam engine Summary: they had the technology Organization: Indiana University Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 15:42:05 GMT Suze.Hammond at f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Suze Hammond) writes: >As James Burke has so often pointed out in "Connections", many ideas are >tinkered with off and on for centuries until some much-needed technology >(such as consistant metalurgy for decent boilers, and the technology to >make a relatively air tight piston-to-cylinder fit, in this case) catches >up to the imaginations of humanity. One of the (main deck?) guns on the Mary Rose, sunk 1545 and raised in 1981, was a breech-loader made of a single sheet of wrought iron forged around a mandrel using a large trip-hammer and forge-welded into a cylinder. When discovered it was thought to be one of the standard iron guns forged out of bundles of iron rods, but X-rays showed the true structure. Iron was delivered to the gunworks in "blooms" which had to first be forged into a sheet or rod before being forged into a cannon. Later in the century the English figured out how to cast iron into large cannons with a fairly small risk of explosion. The casting process required the bore be drilled out after casting. Muzzle-loaders replaced breech-loaders as gunpowder got much better during the late 16th century and gunnery tactics moved towards longer ranges and the breech-loaders couldn't contain the gas pressure. Piston seals were made of leather into the late 19th century. The main problem for a 20th century engineer caught in 16th century England would be (1) the boiler (2) something useful to do with the engine. Steam engines came into common use in England and Wales to pump out mines which had been mined so deeply that water was filling up the diggings, and horse/ox/man power was insufficient to pump out the water. -- Michael L. Squires, Ph.D Manager of Instructional Computing, Freshman Office, Chemistry Department, IU Bloomington, IN 47405 812-855-0852 (o) 81-333-6564 (h) mikes at indiana.edu, mikes at ucs.indiana.edu, or mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: re: Viking Ship Info Date: 26 Mar 1995 21:03:06 -0600 Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway >Could you possibly E-mail or post any dimensions of the original ships ? >Most noteable the keel depth and displaement. Perhaps easier would be some >titles that include dimensions or prints. You might try a book called _The Viking_, published by Crescent Books, in 1975 (and later) in agreement with the original publishers AB Nordbok. There is no specific author, although Bertil Almgren is the "Chief Contributor". The LC number is 82-830302 (for that matter, since PSU doesn't appear to have a copy, the OCLC number is 9371738). It's not the archaeological work I'd prefer to suggest to you, but it's got some decent drawings in it (and has the added bonus on not being in Danish :) ). "Mihi Satis Apparet Propter Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn Se Ipsum Appetenda Sapientia" University of Northkeep -- St. Dunstan Northkeepshire, Ansteorra (I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu) From: 2Lt Aryeh JS Nusbacher Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Sailcloth (was Re: SCA Fallacies) Date: 14 Apr 1995 17:51:07 GMT Organization: Royal Military College of Canada I don't know about Mediterranean sails, but English and other northern European sails were made out of hemp, not cotton, for most of the period that there _were_ sails. Aryk Nusbacher | Post-Graduate War Studies Programme | Royal Military College of Canada | Kingston, Ontario From: darrell.markewitz at ambassador.com (Darrell Markewitz) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: VIKNG SHIP LAUNCH Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 13:45:20 GMT Organization: AMBASSADOR BOARD (519) 925-2642 HST/V.32bis This is a copy of a note I sent to the CBC - you all will be interested! VIKING SHIP is launched in Newfoundland! I am writing you to let you know about a developing story taking place in Newfoundland. Viking Boat Tours is a new commercial venture being 'launched' by Paul Compton of St. Lunaire. He has organized the research, design and construction of a replica of a Norse 'knaar', the same type of vessel that brought the first European colonists to North America, some time about the turn of the first millennium. The 'Viking Saga' is a 43 ft version of the type of merchant ship that was used by the Norse traders who followed in the wake of the better known Viking 'dragon ships'. Although fitted out to modern safety standards, the 'Viking Saga' is based on the slightly larger ship known as Skuldelev 1, excavated in Denmark. The original ship is dated to the 11th century, roughly contemporary to the settlement at L'anse aux Meadows, Newfoundland. The World Heritage Site at L'anse aux Meadows preserves the remains of this first settlement attempt by the Norse. It pre-dates the much heralded English colonies on the American east coast by some 600 years. A combination of archaeological and saga evidence dates the settlement to some time between 996 and 1010 AD. The site was not discovered until the early 1960's by the Norwegian Helge Ingstad. It consists of the ruins of some 10 structures, including dwellings, boat sheds and a forge. The colony is thought to have endured for about four years before it was abandoned. It may have also served as an over wintering shelter and ship repair station. My connection with this enterprise is small. As a blacksmith specializing in historic reproductions, I have produced a few items for the project. I have had a long interest in the Norse culture and the exploration of Vinland. In 1993 & 94, I researched and produced historic display based on the L'anse aux Meadows settlement for the Orangeville Medieval Festival. The Viking Saga thus is the first ship of its type to be built in Canada for 1000 years. It is a tribute to the beginnings of European history in Canada. The story of Viking Boat Tours marks a success story in a region that has had little good news of late. For more information reguarding the launch of the Viking Saga contact: Paul Compton Viking Boat Tours Box 45 St. Lunaire, NFLD, A0K 2X0 709-623-2464 709-623-2098 (FX) Submitted by: Darrell Markewitz the Wareham Forge the Hamlet of Wareham RR # 2 Proton Station, ON, N0C 1L0 519-923-9219 (wareham.forge at ambassador.com) From: 2Lt Aryeh JS Nusbacher Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Hard Tack anyone? Date: 19 Jun 1995 16:52:30 GMT Organization: Royal Military College of Canada elbert at robles.callutheran.edu (Faedrah) wrote: > I'm doing a report on the food eaten by sailors from the year 1550 BACK. > hard tack is a likely kinda thing as well as jerky, limes, and don't for- > get the rum rations! I would suggest that before 1550, you would find none of the above; except perhaps some sort of dried meat (more likely salt pork), and perhaps not even that. Ship's biscuit, but not, I think, hardtack. Fresh meat and vegetables, on the other hand, do not seem unlikely. Remember that before 1550, almost all maritime routes were coastwise. Even early voyages of exploration (Vasco da Gama, for instance) were largely extended coasting expeditions. Captains had ample opportunity for putting in to buy supplies, hunt local wildlife, and drive the dodo into extinction. The Spanish Plate Fleet was just starting to be deployed on its annual run to America in the 16th century; and it sailed with long-haul supplies; but off the top of my head I think that in addition to carrying water and biscuit, ships carried a certain amount of livestock. Salt fish, of course, was a staple of all military and naval supply around 1550 in most of Europe; especially herring from the North Sea and cod from the Grand Banks. Garrett Mattingly's book on the Armada covers a lot of the logistical considerations of the Invincible Armada of 1588, but remember that even that expedition touched shore at several points before expecting to reach the Netherlands. I think a ration of spirits in the Navy probably dates back to the use of Irish grain alcohol as a substitute for the more usual beer ration during the late sixteenth century wars in Ireland. Rum would have waited for extensive planting in the West Indies in the 17th century, but again that is off the top of my head. Additional protein and crunch was, of course, provided by the weevils in the biscuits. Aryk Nusbacher | Post-Graduate War Studies Programme | Royal Military College of Canada | nusbacher-a at rmc.ca Kingston, Ontario http://www.rmc.ca/~nusbache/home.html From: rorice at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (rosalyn rice) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Hard Tack anyone? Date: 20 Jun 1995 02:04:58 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington 2Lt Aryeh JS Nusbacher wrote: >Additional protein and crunch was, of course, provided by the weevils >in the biscuits. But if you knocked the edge of the biscuit against a hard surface like a table then you could shake the weevils out and enjoy a protien-free repast. (Either that or you could soak the biscuit in water or broth and then skim the inhabitants off the top, but the former method was more common in the navy.) Lothar (as much a landsman as Aryk but aware of this bit of naval trivia.) From: scj427 at aol.com (SCJ427) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Hard Tack anyone? Date: 25 Jun 1995 03:36:56 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Try turning the hard tack into soup. Salt Pork Hard Tack or Ship's Biscuit Dried Beans Water Soak overnight and then boil.... it actually tastes excellent and the ingredients can keep for an eon on the shelf if kept dry and free from vermin. Stefan MacMorrow ap Rhovannon From: colette at morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Colette Goodyear) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Hard Tack anyone? Date: 22 Jun 1995 15:14:37 GMT Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland 2Lt Aryeh JS Nusbacher wrote: >Ship's biscuit, but not, I think, hardtack. There's a question I've been asking myself--what is the difference between the two? All the primary references that I've seen refers to "ship's biscuit." For a while, I blithely assumed that ship's biscuit and hard tack were the same thing To bring this OOP for a second--looking at my Dictionary of Newfoundland English, I find that hard tack and sea biscuit are used interchangeably to refer to the same thing from the mid-1700's onwards (the first citation the DNE gives dates to 1766). However, the sources quoted in the Dictionary are drawn from works that were written specifically about Newfoundland so there is a possibility that this is a regional thing. Nowadays, the stuff is referred to variously as "biscuit" (rare), "sea-biscuit," "hard-tack," "ship's bread" (again, rare), and "brewis." Sometimes people make a distinction between the uncooked cakes (hard-tack) and the cooked dish (brewis). The commercially available stuff is marked "hard bread" on the package and gives a recipe for Brewis on the side. But, then again, I've never seen the term "hard tack" used in the period that Faedrah and myself are interested in. So I'm starting to wonder (a) what is the difference between the two and (b) when and why did the terms become interchangeable (at least in this area of the world)? Crunching on a piece of the stuff (ow!) as I write this, Alienor colette at plato.ucs.mun.ca From: Tfranklin Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Drakkars Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 00:51:37 -0400 (EDT) Organization: News & Observer Public Access "Drakkars" were "Dragon Ships". On an 80 foot long Dragon ship the mast rose 60-66 feet above the bridge, and the sail itself was more than 330 square feet. By the way, I haven't found any indication that any Vikings ever named themselves after their boats. An informative book on the subject of Vikings is" The Vikings: Lords of the Seas" by Yves Cohat (Discoveries, Harry N. Abrams, Inc. Publishers, NY) ISBN 0-8109-2865-5 Tfranklin the Librarian From: Tfranklin Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Drakkar: Reposted Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 00:15:51 -0400 (EDT) Organization: News & Observer Public Access Several days ago Hal Heydt quoted my posting... >Tfranklin wrote: > On an 80 foot long Dragon ship the mast rose 60-66 feet above the >bridge, and the sail itself was more than 330 square feet. ...and wrote: >Any chance you dropped a zero there? By rough calculations, that >would make the sail about 5 feet wide, which seems a tad >narrow... > > --Hal Ravn Shortly thereafter Gene Clyatt added: >Sure was easy to store, though it wouldn't catch much wind, eh? >Fian To which I respond today: No, I did not drop a zero. Allow me to refer you again to "The Vikings: Lords of the Seas" by Yves Cohat. (ISBN 0-8109-2865-5 or LC#91-75507) The sentence reads: "The rectangular Viking sail was a great step forward: on an 80-foot-long dragon ship, the mast rose 60-66 feet above the bridge, and the sail itself was more than 330 square feet. (Woven in a double thickness of a raw wool or cloth, the Viking sails were often colored red to draw attention to the ship.)" The book includes many pictures, including several of the Viking ships. All of the illustrations show the bottom of the sail being several feet *above* the level of the boat. In fact, to quote from pages 7 and 8 of "Great Adventures of the Vikings" by John Geipel (ISBN 528-82204-7 or LC#77-72486), he describes a Viking longboat which was found by archaeologists: "Measuring 77.6 feet (23.5 meters) from stem to stern, 7.6 feet (2.3 meters) across the beam, and 6 feet (1.9 meters) from keel to gunwales...the mast originally must...have towered about 39.6 feet (12 meters) above the deck. It's yardarm which measured 36.3 feet (11 meters) supported a huge rectangular sail of "wadmal", a rough woolen cloth." I guess Hal's figures were based on a sail which started at the deck and went to the top of the mast. In that case, Gene would be correct in his assumption that it might be easy to store, although not very good for catching wind. In reality, the sail clearly did *not* cover the entire length of the mast, allowing for a greater width than five feet. Thomas the Librarian From: Kel Rekuta Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: How to build a corracle? Date: 24 Sep 1995 14:47:25 GMT Organization: HookUp Communication Corporation, Oakville, Ontario, CANADA > A friend asked me if I can find instructions on how to build a corracle. > Can anyone help? Please e-mail as well as posting; I'm going to be away > for a couple weeks and probably won't see the posting. I would ask A. G. Smith, an illustrator, publisher and medieval engineer / tinkerer. He built one about ten years back. Its about eight feet long and looks like a huge walnut shell half. Whether it floats, I couldn't say. However, everything else I've seen him build works fine, so I wouldn't be surprised. He lives in Windsor Ontario and is in the phone book. Perhaps someone on the 'Net in Windsor or Detroit could be more specific as to his address. Ceallach From: "Jim N. Deakin" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re how to build a corracle Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 11:00:04 GMT Organization: Sheffield Hallam University Arval said: > A friend asked me if I can find instructions on how to build a corracle. > Can anyone help? Please e-mail as well as posting; I'm going to be away > for a couple weeks and probably won't see the posting. In 'Practical Wood Working' for January 1993 (vol 27, No 11), there is an article and plans for a Shrewsbury style coracle, as built on a course at Bewdley Museum. It's a five page article with measurements and plenty of details. It uses some modern materials, but period alternatives should be simple to find. It also uses screws to attach the seat to six support props, which would almost certainly be jointed in, in period. There's also a book (which I haven't the references for with me) called something like 'forgotten crafts'. It's a fairly superficial coffee-table type of book, but it has a single page illustration showing coracle designs from (I think) three different areas. It would probably be possible to adapt the magazine plan to produce similar versions. I'm not sure what the copyright position would be, but if it's impossible for you to get hold of the article I might be able to scan the article and email it to you. Some of it's on coloured paper, so it probably wouldn't photocopy well. In Service, Niall of Stone Ford ......................................................................... From: Jim Deakin, | Sheffield Hallam University | This space deliberately left blank Computer Services, | Pond Hill, | Sheffield S1 1WB | England. | Email on: J.N.DEAKIN at shu.ac.uk From: ejpiii at delphi.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Re how to build a corracle Date: Sat, 30 Sep 95 21:52:50 -0500 "Jim N. Deakin" writes: >> A friend asked me if I can find instructions on how to build a corracle. In addition to the other post, you could try the Welsh museum in Cardiff Wales. They have several books on the subject, including plans of several versions. You might be able to find them on one of the British history usenet groups, and there may even be a web page. I'm sorry I don't have more complete info, but it's lost in my library, and will likely never see the light of day again! Eddward From: Jeremy J. Johnson Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: The MAYFLOWER III Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 13:24:40 GMT The Mayflower III The Mayflower III will be an historically accurate (as fars as possible) full size reconstruction of the Pilgrims Mayflower of 1620. She is to be built over the next two years on the River Thames in London, England, and then sailed on a goodwill voyage from England to America early in 1998. She will then return to England in time for the Millennium Celebrations at the end of 1999. We are looking for descendants of the orginal pilgrims, passengers and crew. If you know you are one please get in touch and we will keep you up to date with progress via email and suggest ways that you could get involved with the project. We look forward to talking to you. Our web site (URL below) contains loads of background information about the project, including some really exciting sponsorship opportunities (such as 'Treenail' and Plank sponsorship), details about the construction of the ship and a proposed route for the voyage. Other information such as educational, genealogical and historical resources is in development and will be added over the next two years. Posted by: Jeremy Johnson, WWW: http://www.demon.co.uk/history/mayflower/mayflower.html Email: jeremy at jjohnson.demon.co.uk From: FPAGNIEL at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (Frederick Pagniello) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Row a trireme....for real.... Date: Thu, 14 Mar 96 17:24:35 EST Organization: University of Georgia Salve! I found a flier posted outside the office of the Classics Dept. today, and thought of passing it on to the readers of the newsgroup. ROW IN GREECE JULY 28 to AUGUST 17, 1996 in the larget oared ship in the world Wanted: Physically fit men and women under 5' 10" who have a sense of humor and an appreciation of history Rowing experience desirable but not required For: Sea-trials of the 170-oared Greek trireme Olympias Goals: Sprint speeds over 9 knots Simulate battle manoeuvres FREE accommodations in Greece! A rowing adventure: row in unison with 169 others Contact: Ford Weiskittel, Trireme Trust USA, 803 South Main Street, Geneva, New York 14456. This is all the information that was provided on the flier. Can't reproduce the picture of a trireme sailing under the Greek flag, though. Vale. Gnaeus Valerius Sidero civis Romanus. From: car13 at psu.edu (Claire Rutiser) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Row a trireme.... Now: Viking Longship Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 18:13:16 GMT Organization: CAC FPAGNIEL at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (Frederick Pagniello) writes: >Rowing in a group is not easy, as I discovered in '83 when I had the >opportunity (twice) of rowing on the Viking longship of the Longship Company, >at WorldCon. Never afforded the opportunity of raiding Baltimore Harbor. > >By the by, does anyone have the words to "Bend over Greek sailor"? One of the >songs we rowed to. Vale. The longship this gentleman mentions is the Fyrdraca, a 32 foot 12 oared vessel located at Soloman's Island, Maryland. The Fyrdraca is owned and operated by the Longship Company, which is not really a company but a small non-profit medieval group. We also have the Gyrfalcon, a smaller vessel which we take to demos and events. There are few things more memorable in my life than rowing up the Potomac River one afternoon and evening in October 1991, where we went to meet 3 viking ships which had come over from Norway for the Columbus aniversery. Traffic slowed on the George Washington Parkway (on the Virginia side of the Potomac) and the people who saw us must have mistaken our 32 foot boat for the 60 foot plus boats from Norway. [They used gas engines -we don't.] If anyone is interested in rowing the longship, we would love to have you. We will be having trips about twice a month once the boat gets in the water this spring. There is an email list to notify members of voyages. For more info email me at: car13 at ecl.psu.edu. - Claire From: corwyn at aol.com (CORWYN) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Row a trireme....for real.... Date: 21 Mar 1996 22:31:48 -0500 Admiral Corwyn here I couldnt resist the urge to stick my oar in on this topic, as well as the urge to make the preceeding pun. jkrissw at aol.com (JkrissW) writes > masters at nwlink.com (Tom Gibson) writes: >>The problem >>they had is that rowing (multi-persons per oar) is not something you >>learn in a short time (real oarsmen [slaves] were [ahem] "full-time >>professionals"). >I hate to pierce the bubble of years of Hollywood images, but in the glory >days of the ancient Greek city-states, the rowers were paid or >conscripted, but not slaves. I can't quote a source offhand, but I >remember seeing this in several pertinent histories. There are a number >of references to the oarsmen taking up arms to assist the marines on deck >after their ship had grappled an enemy. Correct on both points. Slave driven oared galleys were most typical in the renn. Mediterranean war galleys (mohammedan and christian) as well as later. Unsuprisingly, the use of slaves required a different (and far simpler) rowing arrangement- one level of oars, with multiple oarsmen chained to it. As a trivia note the outside orasman, who had to keep the pace, and needed some skill, was often a non-enslaved prisioner (ie, a criminal or converted slave). Some good sources for the topic: Casson, L _Ships and seamanship in the ancient world_ Princeton university press, 1971 Anderson, RC, _Oared Fighting ships_ , 1957 Rodgers, WL Greek and Roman Naval Warfare_ naval Institute press, 1937, (recently reprinted) _The age of the galley: mediterranean oared vessles since pre-classical times_ Conway's History of the ship, J Morrison, ed. Naval institute press (in USA) 1995 (The best And most recent of the lot for nuts and bolts of oared ships, construction, use, evolution, etc) Casson, L _The ancient mariners_ Princeton university press, 1991 (very good general reference-the most accessable and cheapest of the lot) Okay. Thanks for your tolerance. I feel much better now. If you are in the Mists (West K). for collegium, and want to know more drop by my class. Avast and belike. Heave along ho. Kedge out the fo'csl yarbloccoughs. Baron Corwyn Da Costa, Lord High Admiral , West kingdom (CINCNAVWEST), etc. From: Corbie Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Vanity SCA plates (was Re: YKYITSCAW...) Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 19:08:18 -0500 Organization: RadixNet Internet Services Ann Sheffield wrote: > > The Longship Company is a group in Maryland that owns, maintains, and > sails/rows a reproduction Viking ship. In the eighties, when a certain > BMW advertising campaign and a certain vogue in fitness equipment > cooincided, they had a bumper sticker that read: > > THE LONGSHIP COMPANY LIMITED: THE ULTIMATE ROWING MACHINE > > -Ann Sheffield I've seen the supposed 'longship' in question (met them at a boat event), and it was quite awful -- the Longship Company apparently had a hard time conveying their wishes to the boatbuilder, and so they got what basically looks like a modern double-ended fishing boat (ca. 1900) with a dragon's head stuck on the front. Bleah. I feel sorry for them when I heard the story of their woes with the shipbuilder. But (from a boatbuilding pov) Dragonships are quite difficult... all that wood to steam-bend! What I don't like about them is the attitude of one of their volunteers, who apparently knows everything possible about Viking life -- he's quite the scholar -- and therefore feels it's his right to be quite arrogant and patronizing to anyone in non-period clothing (as I was -- jeans and a volunteer t-shirt for the organization I was with). Ugh. (Look, do I really need or want a 20-minute dissertation on nalbinding when I'd rather talk to the other volunteers about how the ship actually handles?) Oh well. That's not precisely on-topic for this thread. Just letting off steam... Corbie Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 11:55:36 -0400 From: "James A. Barrow" Organization: Red Falcon Armouries Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Research Help GWB wrote: > I am relatively new to the Society and am seekign a wee bit of help. I > have chosen a mid 16th century ships master (armed Merchantman) as my > persona. The problem I have is the lack of information on merchant > shipping of that period. > > There appears to be a plethora of information about Naval vessels but > not much on merchant men. The most helpful things I have found so far > are bigraphies of Sir Francis Drake and Sir John Hawkins. > > Alaric Morgenseg, Master of the "Sea Dragon" (the ships name may change > shortly) Like most of the references that you have run across, my knowledge is more to the technical side of the ships rather than the men who sailed them. However, perhaps I can "steer" you in the right direction (OK, so that was weak). Essentially, there were two types of merchant shipping during this time period. The first consisted of transport of goods of state and/or military significance. These merchantmen sailed in larger convoys, protected by whatever vessels the navy could spare at the moment, from the big ships of the line all the way down to the light corvetttes and fast frigates. The second type is what you personna is geared toward: the armed merchantmen, or privateer. At this period in time, the two main seapowers were England and Spain. France had not yet arisen as a strong force in overseas trade and colonization, and Portugal, who historically had a strong seafaring tradition, had been forced into an uneasy alliance with Spain. Naturally, being the two main contenders for control of shipping lanes, England and Spain were at war. Armed merchantmen were typically funded by private citizens or limited partnerships for the express intent of turning a profit. Letters of Marque were issued to the captains. These were documents issued by the Crown that in effect legitimized piracy, but only toward the vessels of an enemy or its allies. Now, obviously, a state of declared war must exist between two nations before the Letters were issued, which led to a great drawback of the privateering trade: not knowing when the war was over. A voyage of a privateer may last several years, particularly those sailing to the Americas to prey on galleons returning from the New World loaded with treasure. There were several cases of the Fleet Commandant of a small armed merchant fleet sailing from England, attacking Spanish and Portugese shipping, returning to England with his spoils, and then being hung for piracy because the war had ended while he was at sea, and his Letters of Marque had been revoked before they had expired. Which leads to the second great danger of being a privateer: while your government has blessed you with the sacred task of harrying enemy shipping, your still just a pirate to the enemy, not subject to the normal protocols of dealing with captured prizes. The immediate punishment for those found guilty of piracy was hanging. When a legitimate naval vessel lost an engagement, the ship would be officially surrendered (provided it wasn't sunk), the sailors taken prisoner, and a prize crew set on it to sail her to the nearest friendly port for emergency repairs, and then on to her new country for a refit, after which she became a commissioned vessel. The vanquished officers were treated with deference to their rank. A privateer's life expectancy after defeat, however, was about as long as it took to throw a rope over a yardarm. Knowing this, privateers were EXTREMELY careful about who and when they engaged. Capture of a privateer was a long a bloody fight, because the merchantmen knew that they could not surrender, lest they swing in the breeze. If they were lucky enough to be taken to shore after capture, Jesuit inquisitors usually were responsible for the trials, which had but one outcome: pronounced guilty of piracy on the high seas, proclaimed a heretic, and burned at the stake. The armed merchantman was one of the best strategies employed by England during the war with Spain (I may be mistaken, but I don't think Spain Issued Letters of Marque....don't quote me on that though). It used ships and crews that cost the Crown nothing to harry the Spanish all over the world. To protect the larger galleons, more ships of the line had to be pulled from fleet service to be sent to convoy duty, which made life easier on English fleet. Capture of a privateer was an iffy proposition at best, not only because of the ferocity of the privateers, but also because they were typically smaller and very heavily armed. To attack a privateer one on one with anything less than a ship of the line was paramount to suicide. However, the large behemoths necessary to subdue the privateers were too slow to catch them on the open seas. The most effective way the Spanish ever found to deal with armed merchantmen was to hunt them with small packs of corvettes class frigates that were essentially counterparts of the privateers. Perhaps a good research avenue for you would be to locate Letters of Marque issued during the 1600's. Just reading them should provide a wealth of info. I hope this helps somewhat. Oh, BTW, COOL personna! My personna is also 1600's, but Spanish. HMMM....Oh, the possibilities!! In service, Jaime Alejandro del Halcon Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 13:08:40 -0400 From: "James A. Barrow" Organization: Red Falcon Armouries Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: More Privateering (was Research Help) Mark S. Harris wrote: > Greetings unto Jaime Alejandro del Halcon, > > "James A. Barrow" wrote: > > The second type is what you personna is geared toward: the armed > > merchantmen, or privateer. > > > > I fear I must take exception to this statement, although the differance > may be one of semmantics. Are you classing all merchantmen that carried > armament as privateers? I would think this would not be the case. There > were a number of merchantmen that would carry a few to many cannon for > their own defense. If the merchantmen that the privateers were preying > upon were unarmed then there would not have been the need for the > privateers to be as heavily armed as they were. They weren't armed > primarily to fight off the enemy naval vessels for you yourself said > they couldn't really do that, that speed was their main defense. > > Please clarify your statement. Even if you were drawing the line > between a lightly armed merchantman and a heavily armed merchantmen/ > privateer, the original poster may not have been. > > Thanks. > Stefan li Rous Stefan: No, not all merchantmen could be classified as privateers; however, for their own defense, nearly every merchant vessel was armed to some degree, mainly for defense against pirates, although less scrupulous captains were certainly not above taken prizes of opportunity when possible, and therefore engaging in piracy themselves. The term "armed merchantman" is specifically used to refer to a vessel whose master has been granted Letters of Marque, also referred to as a privateer. Just because a merchantman is armed does not make her a "armed merchantman", or "privateer", just like owning a revolver does not make a person a cowboy. As to what the original poster intended to mean, I cannot say. I only assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that because he used the term "armed merchantman" he understood the historical context that the phrase should be taken in. Sorry about the confusion!! Jaime From: Tom Rettie Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: steam bending (was Re: Making Portable SCA Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:30:37 -0700 Robert (Morphis at physics.niu.edu) Wrote: > My understanding is that Henry the VIII's fleet was made using > steam boxes, but I am told that the Viking ships were not, each > plank being hewn to shape. Any thoughts or knowledge out there > about either of these alledged facts? I've done some research on medieval shipbuilding, and I've never found any references to steam bending in period ship construction. Keep in mind that planking tended to be either unseasoned, or at least less so than we are accustomed to, and thus bends more easily than the kiln-dried lumber you find at the lumber yard. It would also be much easier and cheaper to just soak timbers that you thought might need it. Early shipbuilders tended to use timber that naturally approximated the shape they required, such as for ribs and the keel, when they could. Hewing something to shape makes for a weaker piece, as the fibers of the wood are cut rather than being continuous. In lapstrake construction, the hull planks are bent to shape and then pegged (as in Viking construction) or clench-nailed or roved (later European construction) in place. Yes, they used iron nails, though they were expensive. In later frame construction, the skeleton of the ship was built first, and then the hull planks were attached to the skeleton. I commend to you "The Good Ship" published by Johns Hopkins University Press as a good source on period ship construction techniques. The author's name escapes me at the moment. That's the 10 second answer, to the best of my knowledge. Those that know better are welcome to correct any of the above. Findlaech mac Alasdair Subject: ANST - scouting report ... Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 14:50:40 MST From: "j'lynn yeates" To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG was killing some time in the bookstore yesterday and noted a couple of items that might be of interest ... * Scientific America: this months issue has a article on the development and engineering of norse longships. noted a number of great detail drawings that would be useful to those interested in the construction and design details that made these ships so unique and deadly. * "A Tabloid Look At History": (i *think* that was the title) a book that examines and reports many important historical incidents from the perspective of the supermarket tabloids ... file under humor 'wolf From: "Lady O'Ceo (Lady of the Myst)" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Medieval Ships Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 10:14:55 -0700 Organization: Multi-Media Artisans TiernanC wrote: > I need to do some research on what types of ships were used in the early 14th > century, namely by the Irish ans Scottish. Maduinn math! The type of sailing vessel would depend on it's intended use. Around Alba and Eire the shores are very rugged and the seas rough. General requirements would be a stout hull (planked), high freeboard, and comparatively shallow draft. Some possible types to expand your searching: Bark (barque), brig, schooner, galiot, galleon (technically later than your requested period), coaster, merchanter You could also try looking under shipwright, history of sailing, and maritime museum. Hope this helps. -- Rick Schmidt Oak and Iron Forge aka Duncan Alexander Malcolm MacDuibh Kilgour (Alex) From: Christopher Allen Schultz Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Medieval Ships Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:00:09 -0500 Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee > Bark (barque), brig, schooner, galiot, galleon (technically later than > your requested period), coaster, merchanter My interest is later (16th century) and I was going to wait until I can get my documentation before replying. But really the Bark, Brig and schooner are much much later, try way out of period like 18th and 19th century. The "cog" was attributed to the Hansa which would be 14th century, but I have not found documentation for it that old and certainly no pictures (artist rarely reproduced ships in realistic detail in period, the people on the ship were more important so the ship becomes a rough sketch). The "hulk" is an earlier version of the "cog". The viking dragon ships were still around in the 14th century, but the norsemen were not going viking as much (shore defences had gotten to good). The galleon is later and most of its earlier varients are limited to the Med. since they are really not seaworthy. Columbus' toy boats were Med. coast runners of three different types (the largest was a carrack (sp?)), but I don't think that any of them are old enough to date back to the 15th century. Coaster and merchanter are descriptive terms not types of ships and were probably used from Greek time on. Christophe Baernklau Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:31:23 -0500 From: "I. Marc Carlson" Subject: re: Medieval Ships Newsgroups: rec.org.sca >I need to do some research on what types of ships were used in the early 14th >century, namely by the Irish ans Scottish. I realize ships were available but >you'd be surprised that no one seems to know anything about it. I can't even >find any books about it! This is by no means a complete listing: Friel, Ian. The Good Ship; Ships, Shipbuilding and Technology in England, 1200-1520. London: British Museum Press, 1995. Gardiner Robert and Richard W. Unger. Cogs, Caravels, and Galleons, the Sailing Ship, 1000-1650. Annapolis: Naval Institute Press, 1994. Hutchinson, Gillian. Medieval Ships and Shipping. London: Leicester Leicester University Press, 1994. Marsden, Peter. Ships of the Port of London; Twelfth to Seventeenth Centuries AD. London: English Heritage. Seaver, Kirsten. The Frozen Echo, Greenland and the Exploration of North America, 1000-1500. Stanford: Stanford University Press, 1996. Unger, Richard W. The Ship in the Medieval Economy, 600-1600. London: Croom Helm, 1980. (An extensive bibliography, but since I haven't actually read all them, I'm reluctant to suggest them.) You can also try (as general outlines): Landstrom, Bjorn. The Ship, an illustrated history. NY: Doubleday, 1961. Canby, Courtland. A history of ships and seafaring. 1963. I'm not sure just how much the Irish or the Scots did by sea, other than fishing. As far as I can determine (with the limited resources I have on hand this moment), neither had a truely distinctive shipbuilding or international trade thing. >I'd also like to know about passages, like what the fee would be for passage >between the two countries and was there piracy? (I'm sure there was). Any >info and refernce will be helpful. Well, it could just be that the crennelations on the Cogs were just there to fight off the stiff trade competition :) I'm afraid I have no idea about what passage might have cost, however. The basic ships of the early to mid 14th century in the nothern seas, as opposed to those of the Mediterranean, seem to have been "Coasters" (such as the Kalmer boat) smallish vessels used for fishing or local transportation, a "roundship" (such as those seen in the seals of the Cinque Ports) clearly derived from the old Norse double ended vessels, old Knorrs (a centuries old Norse design used for long range ocean voyages, such as to Iceland and Greenland), Stern ruddered vessels derived from the roundships, and finally the (relatively) huge squared hulled Cogs. The roundships are probably those that are also referred to as "Hulks" Marc/Diarmaid O'Duinn lib_imc at centum.utulsa.edu From: Obsidian <"obsidian" at raex.(NOSPAM)com> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Medieval Ships Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 10:35:59 -0400 Organization: The Obsidian Group TiernanC wrote: > I need to do some research on what types of ships were used in the early 14th > century, namely by the Irish ans Scottish. > I'd also like to know about passages, like what the fee would be for passage > between the two countries and was there piracy? (I'm sure there was). Typical 14th century vessels were cogs. The cog design was developed out of Scandinavian knarrs (not Viking longships, those were much narrower). Cogs were anywhere from 25 to 75 feet long, and wide-beamed, with blunt, stubby prows. They were usually single-masted, though later period vessels start to add more. Warships of the era were essentialy the same thing, with "castles" fitted out fore and aft, for archers or catapults. I'm not real familiar with the exchange rates, so I'm afraid to say much, lest I steer you wrong. Obviously a pilgrim in a large party going from Dover to Calais would be paying a lot less than a noble travelling from Dover to, say, Italy. Standard monies of the era all over Europe were descendents of the denarius; silver coins noticeably smaller and thinner than modern dimes. In the British Isles, this was the penny, and its purchasing power was very very roughly about $1.00 modern American. So I wouldnt be surprised if fares started at half a pound or more (ie. $100.00 +) Piracy? Boy was there ever. In the British Isles a constant threat were North African slavers, and French pirates. So prevalent was this danger that any vessel spotted at sea was automatically assumed to be hostile; and it is one of the factors accounting for the fact that Mediaeval seamen hugged coastlines at all times (the other being that there was no reasonable way of determining longitude back then). Nigel FitzMaurice, Forester From: gtv_13 at my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Medieval Ships Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 23:28:56 GMT "Thomas Bravard" wrote: > There was something called a COG tended to be used by the > merchant countries. St Brendan sailed a leather boat that is > a wooden frame with leather stretched over it. I know that > a replica was sailed across the Atlantic. > > Piracy.....Oh yeah the Irish were famous for it. Into the Elizabethan era. > passage was what you could afford. > > Thomas St. Brendan was supposed to have lived around the 6th Century. His vessel was called a curragh (or canoe). I read the book about the replica ("The Brendan Voyages) and Nat'l Geographic published an article by the same author with photos. (The curragh was on the cover; sorry, I don't remember what issue.) BTW, a comment was made that, besides modern survival rations provided by a commercial sponsor, they took along Period foodstuffs (cheese, sausages, etc.). The modern stuff didn't hold up too well against the elements, but the Period food, other than for occasional green fuzz (which they scraped off) did remarkably well. Think about it! Jordi d'Andraitx From: ldcharls at swbell.net Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Medieval Ships Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 17:43:25 +0000 TiernanC wrote: > I need to do some research on what types of ships were used in the early 14th > century, namely by the Irish ans Scottish. I realize ships were available but > you'd be surprised that no one seems to know anything about it. I can't even > find any books about it! > According to the History Channel documetary "The Great Ships" the Viking longships (knarr and drakaar) began to be replaced around the 12th or 13th century by the 'cog', a sailing ship with higher sides than the Viking ships as well as 'castles' fore and aft for defense against boarders. Lord Charles MacKinnon Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 8:48:17 -0500 From: "I. Marc Carlson" Subject: re: Medieval Ships Newsgroups: rec.org.sca > >In 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue. A little rhyme that was taught to >grade school students before outcome based education and multiculturalism were >introduced into the curriculum. A little note aside, the three ships of >Columbus were pretty old when the Queen of Portugal gave them to him. Another >ship to look up is called the Mary Rose, a wreck off the East Coast of >England, where about 175 English Longbows were recovered recently. Noted in >the book, Longbow, by Robert Hardy. My understanding is that at the end of the 14th century there were some major shifts in ship design resulting from the marriage of the "Cog" and "Hulk" forms, so that really ships after about 1400, including the Mary Rose, and the Nina, Pinta and the Santa Maria were similar to (but not identical to) ships from before 1400, but were *more* similar to later era ships. I thought the person who wrote in had asked about 14th century (1300s era) vessels. As an aside, a Cog was purportedly excavated from Bremen some time back (all I've seen are references to it, so I am reluctant to be more specific). Marc/Diarmaid lib_imc at centum.utulsa.edu From: clevin at ripco.com (Craig Levin) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Medieval Ships Date: 5 Jun 1998 14:11:16 GMT TiernanC wrote: >I need to do some research on what types of ships were used in the early 14th >century, namely by the Irish ans Scottish. I realize ships were available but >you'd be surprised that no one seems to know anything about it. I can't even >find any books about it! Most material on late mediaeval shipping is centered on the Mediterranean, with the exception of stuff on the Hanseatic League and a goodly smidgen of material on the English coastal defenses, some of which I did myself as a Master's thesis about three years ago. In all my searches for signs of an active Gaelic presence on the seas in the fifteenth century, I found essentially nothing. If you like, I will send you my thesis on English coastal defense, and/or a smaller work I did at the same time on ship design, which, alas, is mostly based on Mediterranean sources; just give me a little time to resurrect them from my old 386sx... >I'd also like to know about passages, like what the fee would be for passage >between the two countries and was there piracy? (I'm sure there was). Any >info and refernce will be helpful. One thing I _can_ say is that piracy and smuggling was probably endemic to every ocean until very recently. Piracy is generally going to do well when there's no major naval power in a given area. In the late Middle Ages, this was the case in the North Atlantic. The closest that either side of the Hundred Years War ever got to having a regular navy similar in operation to a modern navy was when Henry V purchased around three dozen ships with money from the Chamber (his personal purse) to tear apart everything on the northern coast of France. The regents who governed the land after his death for his son sold the ships off to pay his huge war debt. Usually, if ships were needed for a military purpose (almost always shipping troops or supplying them, in England's case), the king bought cargo or passenger space like any other customer. There's one major exception-the Cinque Ports-but if you want to get into that, I may as well send you the Master's thesis! Passage, even for the king, seems to essentially have been what the market would bear. In dire emergencies, the king might order a draft of all ships and men from a port or set of ports, but they seem to have been paid even then-or if they weren't, you can be sure that they'd make themselves "unavailable" for the next such mission. Dom Pedro de Alcazar Barony of Storvik, Atlantia Storvik Pursuivant Argent, a tower purpure between 3 bunches of grapes proper -- http://pages.ripco.com:8080/~clevin/index.html clevin at ripco.com Craig Levin From: Dmckeon at swcp.com (Denis McKeon) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Medieval Ships Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:42:51 -0600 Bomlin wrote: ... >I had the lucky experience of working in London for about a year and a half and >I visited the Naval Museum in Portsmouth twice. The Mary Rose musuem is very >well done. The HMS Victory(Nelson's ship) is also on display within 100 feet >of the Mary Rose. The Mary Rose is currently in a temporary facility which is >being used to treat the lumber so that it will not decay any furthur. The >Victory is on display outside in a drydock. > >For planning purposes, Portsmouth is about 2 hours by train from Waterloo >station. For something a bit closer to London, although mostly past the SCA period, may I strongly recommend a 20-minute ride on the Docklands Light Rail from Tower Hill down the north side of the Thames to Island Gardens and a walk under the Thames in the Greenwich Foot Tunnel to: http://www.nmm.ac.uk/ National Maritime Museum, Greenwich, London, UK which has a room full of detailed ship models, nearly all of which were made contemporaneously with the ships they represent, and in many cases were contructed for the naval architect or shipyard owner to use as a selling piece: "Yes, Admiral, 34 guns, and the flag cabin would be here ...." There are also various non-nautical places of interest in Greenwich, several closer to period, but I'll leave that for another thread. To return, one can ride by boat up-river, past the Tower, and the reconstruction of the Globe Theatre, to Westminster, and try to imagine what it all would have looked like before the bridges were built. The History channel, IIRC, has been running a well-done series on old ships - ranging from Viking longboats through square-riggers. The 18 books in Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin series are also past period (1800-1815), but are delightful nautical reading. Imagine the period and manners of Jane Austen combined with nautical topics better done than Forester's Hornblower. For more on that topic, and for other nautical URLs, see: http://www.swcp.com/~dmckeon/general.html#nautical Bennet al-Barran Outlands From: "Morgan E. Smith" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Cogs/etc. Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 08:06:36 -0600 Organization: Calgary Community Network Assoc. Recently someone was asking about medieval ships, and so forth - I wasn't really following the thread too closely, but yesterday I noticed that the Naval Institute Press has a listing for the following book: from Conway's History of the Ship series Cogs, Caravels and Galleons: the Sailing Ship 1000-1650 AD Professor Richard W. Unger ISBN 1557501246 49.95US Morgan the Unknown Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 12:01:26 -0500 (EST) From: Jenne Heise To: SCA Arts list Subject: Ships, anyone? A web site that I just came across, containing the lecture notes of a University of Bangor professor on 'history/archaelogy of the ship': http://www.history.bangor.ac.uk/Shipspecial/SHIP_int.htm This was cited in the less scholarly but still fascinating, web page on Ancient Greek ships: http://www.bulfinch.org/fables/grkship.html (This page is an addendum to the web site on Bulfinch's Mythology). Jadwiga Zajaczkowa (Shire of Eisental; HERMS Cyclonus), mka Jennifer Heise jenne at tulgey.browser.net Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:07:00 -0800 (PST) From: sion warwick To: northshield net , sca-arts x Subject: new publications New publication listings, Sion Steffy, J Richard `Wooden ship building and the interpretation of shipwrecks', 314pp, Chatham Publishing, Jan 1999, hbk, ISBN 1 86176 104 X Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:12:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Jenne Heise To: SCA Arts list Subject: a few web sites The following are excerpted from the Net Scout Report: 15. Medieval English Urban History http://www.trytel.com/~tristan/towns/towns.html 6. The Cely Papers http://www.r3.org/bookcase/cely/index.html 7. NAVIS [Java] http://home.rhein-zeitung.de/~rzentral/ Sponsored by the European Commission Directorate General X, this site hosts a database on ancient ship archaeology, with information on over 100 ancient shipwrecks all over Europe. The site can be somewhat confusing and difficult to navigate, but it contains a wealth of information for archaelogists and perhaps ancient historians and classicists. The database is searchable by several options (wreck information, ship contents, literature, exact dating, component images, and search & plot) or browseable by ship number or country. Additional resources at the site include image and distribution maps (robust system strongly recommended), two thematic reviews (Fleets and Frontiers, Maritime Commerce), overviews of ten European maritime museums, and related links. A help section and guided tour are available. [MD] 13. Capitolium.org: the Official Website of the Imperial Forums [.avi or Quicktime] http://www.capitolium.org/english.htm Jadwiga Zajaczkowa (Shire of Eisental), mka Jennifer Heise jenne at tulgey.browser.net Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:21:35 -0400 From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow) Subject: Re: SC - Nautical foodstuffs >I am preparing an article on foodstuffs served on Ships during period, >especially during late period. I have lists of foods that were served, but >I was wondering if anybody had recipes that I might also include, such as >salmagundi, ship's biscuit, hardtack, ragout, etc. > >Brandu Well, Plat (Delights for Ladies) has some very interesting (& comical) ideas about how to preserve flesh on ships by tossing it overboard in pierced casks & dragging it behind the boat. He also has several different bisket recipes, a recipe for "To make Troffes for the Sea", "How to keepe rosted Beefe a long time sweet and wholsome..." that was "fully proued in that honourable voyage unto Cales." Etc. Cindy Renfrow/Sincgiefu renfrow at skylands.net Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 23:16:49 +0100 From: Thomas Gloning Subject: SC - Nautical / travel food Let me mention two types of sources (I'll give an example for every type): 1. Travelogues There are many medieval and early modern (nautical) travelogues mentioning aspects of food and nutrition. E.g. (I mentioned this example a few months ago): Balthasar Springer sailed with a portuguese crew from Lisbon to Cochin and Calicut and came by the Cape of good hope twice. In his travelogue (printed 1509), he mentions that they landed at the Algoa Bay and that they bought oxen, cows and sheep from the people there to provide the ship with food ("da funden wir wassers genuog Ochssen Kuw vnd Schaf/ vnd verkaufften vns die Moren genuog vmb ein wenig alts eysens: vnd wolten sunst anders nicht haben/ wir speissten vnser Schife do mit groser meng fleisch vnd wassers"). Another aspect is, that travellers/ sailors made their remarks about the foreign cuisines they came across, see e.g.: - -- Paviot, J.: Cuisine grecque et cuisine turque selon l'expérience des voyageurs (XVe-XVIe siècles). In: Bryer, A./ Ursinus, M. (eds.): Manzikert to Lepanto. The Byzantine World and the Turks 1071-1571. Amsterdam 1991 (Byzantinische Forschungen 16). - -- Gillet, Ph.: Par mets et par vins. Voyages et gastronomie en Europe, XVIe-XVIIe siècles. Paris 1985. - -- The description of making sort of 'bread' in Guinea by Samuel Brun in his 'Schiffarten' (1624, 70f.) [should be interesting for the bread historians; see also the introduction of Hirschberg to the facsimile, p. XIX., where he mentions several other texts describing the near relatives to bread found by sailors.] - -- Not to mention the detailed account on cannibalism in the travelogue of Hans Staden 1557 and others. 2. Medical books for travellers/sailors/passengers on ships It seems, that there were special books that gave advice what to eat and what not to eat on a travel or on a ship, e.g.: - -- Schorer, Ch.: Medicina Peregrinantium, Oder Artzney der Raisenden worinnen begriffen/ wie sich die Raisenden in Essen und Trincken/ etc. verhalten/ vnd zugleich allerley Kranckheiten begegnen sollen (...). Ulm 1666. Roughly: 'Med. Per. or medicine for travellers, containing advice, how the travellers should deal with (?) eating and drinking etc., and how they can deal with all sorts of illness. Ulm 1666 (seems to be the second ed.). Then, there are the dictionaries (incl. the nautical dictionaries), the cookery books and the nautical handbooks (e.g. Furttenbach, Architectura navalis, 1629), one _could_ check ... But I won't bother you with that. Let us know, what you find! Thomas Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:57:16 -0400 From: "Jeff Gedney" Subject: Re: SC - Re: liqueurs Stefan hath writ: > It does appear to have been used more and more as > the making of beer changed from a cottage industry to the first mass > production factory based industry. Probably because of it;s perservative > properties. This shift may have been helped along by the use of hops since > it allowed larger batches to be made and sold before they went bad. Well, to be more precise, the preservative qualities were the impetus for mass production of beer (at least in England). "Flemish" (hopped) Beer was produced in prodigious quantity for supplying the Tudor navy, since it kept much better (due to the Hops, and the pasteurizing effect of mashing and boiling the wort) than water or any other drink. Wine was not a primary choice of the British sailor because it was deemed "foreign", and (if made in sufficent manner to survive in a heaving hot ship more than a couple of weeks) was in fact, rather too strong for thirst quenching (a happy sailor is one thing, depending on a drunk sailor is quite another) A keg of fresh water would go brackish and slimey in a couple of weeks. Beer could take months to go bad. It is the adoption of beer as the basic beverage onboard ships that enabled long ocean crossings, since water casks have to be refreshed every couple of weeks, and even with favorable winds, an Atlantic crossing was 24 days or so in Drake's day. "Flemished Beere" was produced by "state" breweries in such prodigious quantity in Portsmouth and other "navy" towns that the roads in certain areas were literally lined with casks of beer ready for the Channel fleet. During the Armada campaign and afterward, the Navy paid a premium to get this beer to the sailors who were regularly in short supply for want of sufficient transport. Things got so bad, at some points that the Navy essentially commandeered almost every fishing vessel on the East Anglian and Southern coasts capable of ferrying the half tun "pipes" out to the fleet. An informative discussion of this can be found at the Mary Rose website. Also Several books on the Armada campaign discuss the resupply woes that the Channel fleet sufferred. Check out the following books for more information: "Founded upon the Seas : A Narrative of Some English Maritime and Overseas Enterprises During the Period 1550 to 1616" by Walter Oakeshott "Spain's Men of the Sea : Daily Life on the Indies Fleets in the Sixteenth Century" by Pablo E. Perez-Mallaina, Carla Rahn Phillips, Translator "The Voyages and works of John Davis, the navigator" by A.H. Markham "Discovery : Exploration through the Centuries" by Eric Flaum "The Adventure of Sail" by Captain Donald Macintyre, RN On side a note: "beere" was not necessarily hopped in period, and the term Flemished or flemish beer was used to denote beer made in the hopped fashion, since the English at first imported their navy beer from the flemings, because of the qualities of the hops that the flemish used. They did not start making it themselves until it was clear that the imports were falling far short of what was needed by the fleet. At that time several admirals got the state to finance the construction of or subsidize a number of brewies. This was achieved in very short order and the way the Navy started turning out ships, biscuit, and beer, going from a few ships a year to full production in only a couple of years was the "Manhattan Project" of the time. It was not till after period that the term "beer" became synonymous with the use of hops. Brandu Date: 10 Oct 2000 13:11:19 -0000 From: "Gunnora Hallakarva" Subject: FWD Viking Banner-Vanes from Norsefolk While looking for something else entirely I found another interesting source discussing the gilded weathervane/prow-ornaments: Martin Blindheim. "The Gilded Vikingship Vanes: Their Use and Technique" in: R.T. Farrell, ed. The Vikings. London: Phillimore. 1982. ISBN 0850334365. pp. 116-127. Blindheim has several other "graffiti" type drawings ca. 1150-1250 which are similar to the Bryggen stick, showing this type of vane on the prow and in one instance the mast of various Viking-type ships as follows: Graffiti from Urnes Stave Church at Sogn, Norway Graffito on inner wall of Borgund Stave Church, Sogn, Norway Graffiti on inner wall of Kaupanger Stave Church, Sogn, Norway Graffito on outer wall of Reinli Stave Church, Oppland, Norway He differentiates between two types of vane: veðrviti, or prow- ornaments, and flaug, which were affixed at the top of the mast. Apparently Brøgger had proposed that the Heggen vane had been used as a merki ("standard") and carried about atop a staff, similar to the banners on the Bayeaux Tapestry, but Blindheim disagrees. Apparently there's a good bit of saga evidence for these vanes appearing on ships: "It appears that such vanes were easily taken down and put up again, and that they were used on warships as signs of importance. They could be seen shining in the sun at some considerable distance, and people would infer from the shining that warships were approaching." Haakons saga Haakonssons is one of the sagas cited, where Haakon is launching a sea-attack against the Ribbungs, using deceit by sending the small ships first and warships under sail next to make the enemy think that these were cargo ships, which apparently were rarely rowed. Only when the Ribbungs rowed out and were very close did they see the gilded vanes and so discover that these were warships by the glittering of the gilded vanes (veðrvitar glitudu ved á storskipunum er sólen skein á). Other saga mentions include: The ship which brought Harald Hardrada home had vanes that looked like red gold (veðrvitar varu svá at sjá sem rautt gull væri). Sigurd Slembe's saga, which refers to the glitter of the golden vane (skok veðrvita í vátum byr gulli glaæstan of gramskipi). In discussing the physical condition of the surviving vanes, Blindheim notes that the holes which occur along the curved bottom edge were almost certainly used for some sort of dangling ornament, but that the wear on the holes is too great for cloth or tassels or ribbon to have caused it -- he thinks that there were originally metal rings in these holes, from which fabric streamers or even gilded metal oblongs were dependent. Another interesting note is that the surviving vanes have been altered to allow them to be used on the various churches where they were preserved. In some cases the angles of the design have been altered, others the overall vane trimmed down and the original edge trimming set in, etc. Apparently vanes which were originally in use on ship-prows have an upper corner angle of about 110 degrees (veðrvitar), while those designed to fly from a mast or as actual weathervanes on a building have a corner angle of 90 degrees (flaug). Another interesting note is that Blindheim says that all the extant vanes are gilded copper, but that several sources will list some as brass. The animal ornaments that stand on top of the vane at the outer end are also largely copper with various other metals, but always of a slightly different composition from the vane. The method used in gilding the vanes is apparently identical to the techniques in Book III of Theophilus' De Diversis Artibus (flame-gilding). Blindheim breaks the composition down as follows: Søderala vane 95% copper, 1 mm gilding, lion on top 80% copper, 20% zinc Heggen vane 90% copper, lion on top 70% copper, 20% zinc, 5% lead, 5% other Källunge vane 90-95% copper, lion on top 90-95% copper Tingelstad vane 97% copper, 2-3 mm gilding, dragon on top also 97% copper Lolland vane ?, horse on top 90% copper, 1-5% iron, zinc, tin, silver, etc. Very detailed dimensions and weights are given for the various structural elements of each vane, and notes on how each element is constructed are listed -- this would be very nice for craftsmen reconstructing these who are looking for specific documentation on materials and methods. And, linking nicely with the thread on ship-law, Blindheim also briefly discusses a bit of the law associated with war-fleets, which I'll quote: "In Norway the laws for the 'leidang', the fleet of warships, said that the leidang-obligations went as far inland as the salmon was able to swim up river. In some places that was quite a long way. The leidang system meant that in case of war a district had to muster a fixed number of ships with equipment and with men. In times of peace the ships had to be put away in common boat-sheds and sails and other objects had to be kept in special central places. In the Middle Ages these places were the churches." This leads me to think that the folks looking for ship-law should look at the leidang or leding regulations, as this might give you some ideas about law aboard ships. ::GUNNORA:: Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:53:55 -0500 From: rmhowe To: "- Stephan's Florilegium" , - Authenticity List Subject: Book stamps / boat models / Pilgrim Ampullae from Dublin Wallace, Patrick F.(Ed.): Miscellanea 1: Medieval Dublin Excavations 1962-81, National Museum of Ireland, 48pp PB Royal Irish Academy, Dublin, 1988 PB ISBN 0901714712, HB ISBN 0901714712. $13.49 in paperback from Amazon.com. The first section is a Bibliography of Dublin 840-1300 listing all articles. About 5 pages of solid bibliography by Patrick Wallace. The second section is A 'Winchester-style' Bronze Mount by Andrew Halpin. This depicts four differnt mounts. Similar ones are thought to possibly have been sword pommels. This one is highly carved in an animalistic romanesque style and is thought to have been a ceremonial staff end of some type. (Although to me it looks like the animals would have been upside down in context). 10 C. English Import. Two inches wide by about 5/8" thick. Shown actual size in three orthographic drawings, and one photo. The third section if Ship Graffiti and Models by Arne-Emil Christianson. This one looks like fun, it has a number of graffiti of early ships including a horned dragon head ship and some obvious toys and models. Both carved models and real boats are illustrated. Also a Birka coin and a wooden gaming piece from High Street which is rather like a checker piece. 25 illus. Bibliography. The fourth section is Romanesque bookbinding fragments by Joseph McDonnell and has a number of book stamp styles illustrated. Not the actual punches but the impressions of them. This kind of illustration is fairly rare. The leather bits and the six different stamp designs used are depicted. A palmette, a repeating palmette, a lobe shaped dragon, a dove without a nimbus enclosed in a palmette frame, an Ostrich?, and a boar. The last section if Pilgrim Souvenirs by Brian Spencer which consists of quite a number of differently shaped Ampullae. Ten illustrations and about 40 citations in the bibliography. Magnus Malleus, OL, Atlantia, GDH / R.M.Howe .......... ***Not to be forewarded to SCA-Universitas or any open Newsgroups, especially the Rialto. Closed email lists of the SCA or reenactor community are fine. From: "Raymond C. Parks" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Nautical reference material Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 21:47:10 -0700 Organization: Rt66.COM, New Mexico's #1 ISP If you are not interested in period things nautical, skip this message and feel good. For those of you who are CostCo (formerly Price Club) members, they seem to have an interesting series of books available. The series is probably available elsewhere, but that's where I found them. The series is "Conway's History of the Ship". The book I picked up is _Cogs,_Caravels,_and_Galleons_, subtitled "The Sailing Ship 1000-1650". There seems to be one about Viking ships, also. I didn't get around to reading until this week, but it contains quite scholarly articles with frequent references to archeological finds. The articles are not afraid to admit what is not known - e.g. the article on cogs notes that they were supplemented and replace by "hulks" of which little is known. The articles on cogs and earlier ships pay particular attention to the Hanseatic League. For those of you with a nautical bent, this could be invaluable. Goetz Liedtke Ray Parks From: lilinah at earthlink.net Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 08:32:45 -0700 To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Need Reference info Brighid ni Chiarain wrote: >TITLE: Spanish diet in the Atlantic crossing, the 1570s. >AUTHORS: Super JC >HOLDING STATUS: THIS ITEM IS NOT IN THE NLM COLLECTION. >SOURCE: Terr Incogn. 1984;16:57-70. In case some folks don't understand the reference, "Spanish diet..." is an article in a magazine, Terra Incognita, Issue 16, published 1984, on pages 57 to 70. Anahita Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 11:13:29 -0400 From: johnna holloway To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] pickled lemons Here are some additional and interesting articles and books that deal with diet in the English navy, and scurvy along with its prevention. See the Oxford Symposium on Food and Cookery, 1990. Fasting and Feasting, ed. Harlan Walker, London: Prospect Books, 1990. Powers, Jo Marie. "L'Ordre de Bon Temps: Good Cheer as the Answer" pp.164-172. --discusses Samuel de Champlain's efforts to survive the winter of 1606-1607 in New France, knowing that as in the previous two winters many would of scurvy during the bitter cold. Oxford Symposium on Food and Cookery, 1989. Staple Foods, ed. Harlan Walker, London: Prospect Books, 1990. Black, Maggie. "Survival Kit (16th Century Seaman's Fare)" pp.57-60. --includes the 1588 daily issue of food per sailor. Thick, Malcolm. "Sir Hugh Plat's Promotion of Pasta as a Victual for Seamen." Petits Propos Culinaires #40 [1992], pp.43-50. --Yes, that Sir Hugh Plat who wrote Delightes for Ladies, spent a great deal of time between 1589 and 1607 promoting a better diet for seamen. He especially promoted the use of dried macaroni. Perry, Charles. "Preserved Lemons." Petits Propos Culinaires #50 [1995], pp.22-24. --discusses the literature of preserving lemons and the odd fact that there is little scientific literature on what is happening when these fruits are preserved. Shepard, Sue. Pickled, Potted, and Canned. How the Art and Science of Food Preserving Changed the World. NY: Simon and Schuster, 2000. --contains a chapter "Navy Blues" on the provisioning of ships, including a concise account of James Lancaster's efforts in 1600 to avoid scurvy on trips to the East Indies. Lancaster took with him "bottles of lemon juice, of which he gave three spoonfuls every morning to each man." (p.209) Giles Milton. Nathaniel's Nutmeg, NY: Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 1999, also describes in detail James Lancaster's voyages in chapters entitled "Wonderfully Unwholesome Climes" and "Music and Dancing Damsels." See also Carpenter, Kenneth J. The History of Scurvy and Vitamin C. Cambridge: C.U.P., 1986. Johnna Holloway From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 11:59:40 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Spanish seafaring food I was browsing through LIBRO (Library of Iberian Resources Online) at http://libro.uca.edu and I came across an interesting tidbit. The following is from _Consulate of the Sea and Related Documents_, which is a 15th century compilation of laws, regulations, and customs governing merchant shipping. http://libro.uca.edu/consulate/index.htm The section below deals with food for sailors: 145-Food Which Must Be Provided for the Sailors by the Patron To continue: Every patron of a vessel or a boat which has a deck must provide the following food for the whole crew: Meat three times per week. This means on Sunday, Tuesday, and on Thursday. On the other days of the week he shall provide soup for them, in addition to the bread given the crew each evening. Also three times per week, in the morning and in the evening he shall provide them with wine. To supplement the bread ration they should be given cheese or onions or sardines or other kind of fish. In addition, the master of a vessel is required to issue rations of wine, if it will not cost him more than three and one-half besants. If he procures raisins or even figs, he should make wine; if he should not be able to get either figs or raisins or if they cost more than thirty milliares per thousand rolls, the master will not be required to issue wine rations. Furthermore, the patron shall double the rations of the crew on all official holy days. Finally, he shall employ proper personnel to prepare the food for the crew. ----------------------- Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom rcmann4 at earthlink.net From: "sscott at datuma.com" Date: Wed Jun 4, 2003 7:39:20 AM US/Central To: bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Bryn-gwlad] Dragonships compared to the Mary Rose > Please pardon my ignorance, I have been reading these missives > comparing the Mary Rose to a viking longship... What, pray, is the > Mary Rose? Historically or in literature? > > Thanks for the entertainment...and, in advance, the enlightenment... > ;-> > > Lady Dior The Mary Rose was one of Henry VIII's major warships. It was built around 1510 and sank in 1545. It was raised in 1982 and has provided an enormous amount of info and artifacts about early 16th century life. There is a lot of information online, such as www.maryrose.org, and there have been various books written about the ship and its recovery. Gwenneth From: clevin at ripco.com (Craig Levin) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Ship-related Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:41:32 +0000 (UTC) Athelinda wrote: >Pedro and others, > I am specifically looking for an idea of the positions of crew on a >1560-1580 caravel and a brief description of what each does. The >floriligeum has much wonderful seafaring info, but not that! I know >absolutely nothing to begin with. Okay. Understand that, by and large, a caravel is going to have a fairly small crew for the time-it was originally a coastal trading vessel, built as much for ease of handling as much as anything else, which made it the type of choice to go nosing around foreign shores. From the bottom up, according to Parry's _Age of Reconnaissance_ (currently available from Amazon, so go forth and grab!): ship's boys - you have to start someplace, and this is it. When a cook isn't available, and on most caravels he wasn't (the Nin~a and Pinta didn't have one, though the Santa Maria, a carrack, did), they cook, and in most situations they're basically apprentices, literally learning their lines. seamen - on a caravel, you normally didn't have the deep breakdown of men into specific types of seaman; when you've got about two dozen guys to run an ocean-going vessel, everyone's got to be able to do a lot of different tasks. craftsmen - there are some tasks, however, that do take time to learn. Most ships' rosters listed carpenters, caulkers (who make the stuff that gets stuffed between the hull strakes, and do the stuffing), and coopers (it was simply easier to have somebody already on staff who could make barrels-no outsourcing for these guys!). Interestingly enough, Parry believes that the typical mariner knew enough about making sails to make a post just of sailmaker needless. Some rosters list a cook. petty officers - boatswain/bosun, who takes care of the ship's rigging and other gear; if this wasn't complicated enough, he's also the guy who often gets tagged with teaching the boys. Along with him, there's the steward, who covers the consumables. He works fairly closely with the cooper. pilot and master - at this point in time, the master may still be the ship's owner, but he's most certainly the guy on board in charge, owner or not. Both he and the pilot are going to command watches, switching on and off, and both of them will know the art of piloting. Piloting is also called coastwise navigation, as opposed to celestial navigation, because the pilot and the master are taking their bearings from landmarks (often tall cliffs and mountains, so you're not really hugging the coast, but hanging off just close enough to make them out) and soundings, when they aren't using "dead reckoning" (deducing their position from their compass heading and speed, a dicey procedure because there really isn't such a thing as a reliable clock one can use at sea until the 1700's). Some masters and pilots would have known how to find their latitude using Polaris (which isn't precisely above the North Pole, then or now, so just getting Polaris' angle above the horizon isn't enough) or a sun shot at noon, when the sun is due south, which is simple-as long as you're swift with an abacus and have the formulae and tables handy. Voyages of exploration might also have a gentleman on board as a captain; intelligent ones listened to those dreadful middle class types, the pilot and the master, dullards often ended up playing star roles in the Historia Tragico-Maritima (also for sale!). Please feel free to ask more questions. Were it not for my obligations, I could go on about this all day. Pedro -- http://pages.ripco.net/~clevin/index.html clevin at ripco.com Craig Levin Librarians Rule: Oook! Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:02:23 -0500 From: "David J. Hughes" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Ship-related Athelinda wrote: > Ok, more questions then. What is a quartermaster? Date: 15th century 1 : a petty officer who attends to a ship's helm, binnacle, and signals master of marines? OOP commander of the marine contingent of a ship, more commonly on military vessel a Sergeant, Lieutenant or Major ( A major may hold the RANK of captain, but is never called such aboard ship. There is only ONE captain on a ship, even if his actual rank is midshipman) Date: 1669 2 : one of a class of soldiers serving on shipboard or in close association with a naval force; > Their roles in history and SCA? > > Were there chaplains? Surgeons? > -Athelinda On larger ships, possibly, although some services considered having a chaplain aboard bad luck. On British ships, particularly after Henry the VIII split from the RCC, the captain would read divine services. In addition, on larger military vessels, the chaplains primary duty would often be the education of the ship boys and "young gentlemen" (Midshipmen) in reading, writing, etc. Note that a physician or Doctor of Medicine held higher qualifications than a Surgeon, whose medical skills rarely exceeded passing out nostrum medicines and performing radical amputations. A modern US Navy combat medic would have been considered a Godsend on most period ships. Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 21:46:16 -0500 From: "David J. Hughes" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Ship-related Athelinda wrote: > Pedro and others, > I am specifically looking for an idea of the positions of crew on a > 1560-1580 caravel and a brief description of what each does. The > floriligeum has much wonderful seafaring info, but not that! I know > absolutely nothing to begin with. > Thanks, > Athelinda Let's look at a merchant ship (A military ship will have many more officers and crew) Jobs that have to be done Officers Master- navigator, sailing master Handles the ship. Determines course, when to change course, number and positions of sails, adjusting ballast or cargo to adjust ship's trim. Makes or orders sailing entries into the ship's log. Captain person responsible for EVERYTHING on the ship, in overall command. Determines ratings of crew, oversees discipline, condition of crew, stores, food, lines, lines, sails, spars, yards, mast, cables, rigging, etc. May delegate any or all of these jobs, but is ultimately responsible. Responsible for the ship's log. Optional Owner guy who actually owns the ship, deals with all the economic factors. If not the owner, the Purser handles these matters. Purser responsible for all ships stores (food, spare sails and rope, water supplies, fire wood, crew comforts like spirits, wine, beer, cloth, sewing supplies for clothing and sails, spare yards and spars, etc.) One person may hold any or all of the above positions. Masters mate trained to do all the master's duties, Master's assistant. May be more than one aboard. Sails the ship when Master not on deck. Petty officers Bosun Boatswain a petty officer having charge of hull maintenance and related work. Often also acts as foreman for coordinating the efforts of the hands Optional coxswain a sailor who has charge of a ship's small boat(s) and its crew and who usually steers Hands Seamen of various ratings, not petty officers. Helmsman qualified to handle the wheel, steer a course as directed, read the compass, note wind shifts and sea conditions to assist the master. Linesman casts the log to determine ship's speed through the water, determines water depth in shallow areas. Topman/men Sailor skilled in working the sails from the mast and yards. Sets, shortens , reefs and furls sails, replaces sails as needed. Idlers Sailors not qualified to work as topmen. Handle lines on deck as ordered, hauls the lines to raise, lower, or adjust sails, man pumps, capstan (Main winch for raising anchor or other heavy lifting), general ship maintenance, such as swapping and holystoning the decks. Loblolly boy ship's medic. Cook in charge of the galley, particularly the stove. May not actually cook, but merely issues the supplies so the crew can cook their own food, or may cook. Slushy Cook's assistant Ranking of seamen (Later period for the names, but the general concept applies) Seaman 1st class Professional seaman, probably more than 5 years service, can do almost any job aboard that has to do with sails, lines, rigging, masts, yards, spars or hull. Able bodied seamen can "reef, splice and steer" skilled sailor, rarely has lees than 2 years service. Seaman can place his hand on any line on the ship, in the dark, in the middle of a raging storm Landsman beginner. Does NOTHING concerning the handling of the ship without supervision. Ship's boy a youngster, fetches and carries, runs messages, etc. A merchant caravel could have as few as twenty personnel, total, so many of these jobs could be done by a single person, as needed. In addition, there could be Surgeon, Carpenter, Gunner and/or Gunner's Mate, Blacksmith, midshipman (ship's boy being trained as a master's mate), Clerk (to handle paperwork), Cargomaster, Supercargo (an officer of indeterminate duties) David Gallowglass From: clevin at ripco.com (Craig Levin) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Ship-related Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:55:20 +0000 (UTC) Athelinda wrote: >Ok, more questions then. What is a quartermaster? master of marines? Depending on where you go, a quartermaster's usually in charge of supplies. "Master of Marines" is a new one. On some larger vessels, a master at arms might have been on the roster as the person who would have that kind of responsibility, but most caravels, as I mentioned before, were merchantmen, and, even when on a commission to explore, wouldn't have been heavily armed. Portuguese East Indiamen (that is, the ships on the "carreira da India" to and from the homeland and the Orient) often carried soldiers who were being sent from one fort to another-just passengers, typically. For the most part, the Portuguese had the upper hand in the Indian and Pacific Oceans in terms of warship technology: the cannon-armed roundship-the ancestor to every man-of-war until the Monitor and the Merrimac. Unlike the galley, which has a contingent of marines for its tactics of ram-and-board, the can- non-armed roundship fights best by avoiding close contact and bashing its opponents with gunfire. In the event that it does get boarded, the boarding party normally ends up in the waist (the middle of the ship), the defenders shoot at them from the forecastle and the quarterdeck, and the boarding party becomes fish food. >Their roles in history and SCA? While lots of folks have nautically inclined personae (I did, for a very long time), and there have been branches on some USN vessels, there is no Known World Navy. As for naval history-it's a massive subject even when skimmed. I suggest trying to obtain some of the books mentioned in the Florilegium section via ILL. >Were there chaplains? Surgeons? Portuguese and Spanish vessels sometimes had chaplains, as opposed to clergymen en route somewhere who were simply fulfilling their vows. Most likely, they'd have been attached to the gentleman in charge, rather than being like modern chaplains, who are on their country's payroll. Surgeons? Sometimes. Personally, if I had a choice of being treated by a Renaissance physician, who would've diagnosed me using ancient Greek and Roman texts and had an apothecary dose me with some dubious herbal crud (or worse, if he accepted the new science of Paracelsus, with his use of mercury compounds!) and being treated by a surgeon, who'd have received his training in a hands-on manner, with quite a bit of empirical knowledge (that is, he knows which techniques and approaches work, but not why), I might well decide that my fortune stood higher with the surgeon. Mind you, I might just avoid them both and hole up with some chicken soup and bedrest. Pedro -- http://pages.ripco.net/~clevin/index.html clevin at ripco.com Craig Levin Librarians Rule: Oook! Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:56:19 -0500 From: "David J. Hughes" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Ship-related Athelinda wrote: > So far, that's them. > -Athelinda > >>Define the total complement (How many people people total, not >>counting passengers) and I could set up starboard and port watches, >>deck officers, supplementaries needed. Is that because you have specific individuals volunteering to be on your hypothetical ship. On an actual period ship, your listed complement won't get out of harbor. Officers: Captain First Mate Master of Marines (Master at Arms) Nobody to be master of. No troops listed. Quartermaster Possibly officer, possibly crew Crew: Navigator always an officer Chaplain Honorary Officer Cook Surgeon Always an officer (warranted by the Surgeons Board, rather than commissioned by the Crown, in the British Navy.) Midshipman Neither fish nor fowl, between grass and hay. Officer trainee, gives orders to the crew as if an officer, but neither officer nor crew Let's look at one job, leaving harbor. Three masted caravel, in harbor, anchored with standard two anchors, with 200 meters of cable on each anchor. Man the capstan, minimum four, more likely eight sailors. Possibly a fiddler or other beat keeper to keep them coordinated. Quartermaster over sees laying the cable in the cable hold, 4 ships boys (minimum) nipping the cable to keep it running from the lower capstan to the cable hold, four to six sailors laying the cable in the cable hold. One or two men to "cat" the anchor (keep it from banging against the hull.) That's 13 to 23 men to raise the first anchor. When the second anchor weighs (comes of the ocean bottom), you'll want the ship to be making headway so as to be under control. At least one helmsman, 4 topmen to loose the foretopsail, six waisters (idlers) to handle lines, probably a bosun to oversee, although the Masters mate could do that. That's another 11 crew needed during the 2 to 5 minutes between the time the anchor weighs and the anchor watch is relieved. Call it 24 sailors needed to handle the ship, divided 8 expert, 8 experienced, 8 trainees. If any novices (landsmen), they don't count for much, say 4 novices would equal 1 experienced sailor in usefulness. One sail now set, ship under minimal control, the crew at the capstan and cable tier can now enter the waist and rigging to set other sails as needed, secure the anchors, capstan, cables, and other tasks. For comparison, in 1492, Columbus sailed with the Nina, a two master lanteen rigged caravel, the Pinta, a three masted square and lanteen rigged caravel, and the Santa Maria, a three masted nao. Between them, they had a complement of 104 virtually all experts or experienced, probably roughly 20, 35, 50, based on the sizes and handling requirements of each. Note that when the Santa Maria ran aground and was wrecked (Dec 25, 1492), the Pinta having previously sailed separately, the Nina was unable to accommodate 40 of the Santa Maria's crew, who were left to build a fort, Navidad, on Hispaniola. Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 22:27:44 -0500 From: "Jeff Gedney" Subject: Lemons as antiscorbutics To: Cooks within the SCA John Smith in his 1626 book on ships and sailing, A Sea Grammar, has the following line in his instructions regarding the proper victualling of a ship for a voyage to sea: "A Commander at Sea should doe well to thinke the contrary, and provide for himselfe and company in like manner; also seriously to consider what will bee his charge to furnish himselfe at Sea with bedding, linnen, armes, and apparrell, how to keepe his table aboord, and hi expences on shore, and provide his petty Tally, which is a competent proportion according to your number of these particulars following. Fine wheat flower close and well packed, Rice, Currands, Sugar, Prunes, Cynamon, Ginger, Pepper, Cloves, greene inger, Oyle, Butter, Holland cheese, or old Cheese, Wine vineger, Canarie sacke, Aqua vitæ, the best Wines, the best waters, the juyce of Limons for the scurvy, white Bisket, Oatmeale, gammons of Bacon, dried Neats tongues, Beefe packed up in vineger,Legs of Mutton minced and stewed, and close packed up, with tried sewet or butter in earthen pots. " In 1610 the Governor of Jamestown Lord la Ware took scurvy while travelling to Jamestown, and he was forced for his health to repair to "the western isles" by which I think he means the Bahamas:"In these extremities I resolved to consult with my friends, who finding nature spent in me, and my body almost consumed, my paines likewise daily increasing, gave me advice to preferre a hopefull recoverie, bfore an assured ruine, which must necessarily have ensued, had I lived but twentie daies longer in Virginia, wanting at that instant both food and Physicke, fit to remedie such extraordinary diseases; wherefore I shipped my selfe with Doctor Bohun and aptaine Argall, for Mevis in the West Indies, but being crossed with Southerly winds, I was forced to shape my course for the Westerne Iles, where I found helpe for my health, and my sicknesse asswaged, by the meanes of fresh dyet, especially Oranges nd Limons, and undoubted remedie for that disease: then I intended to have returned backe againe to Virginia, but I was advised not to hazard my selfe, before I had perfectly recovered my strength: so I came for England; in which accident, I doubt notbut men of judgement will imagine, there would more prejudice have happened by my death there, than I hope can doe by my returne." So as far as lemons, and oranges, go, here appears to have been a plantations in the American tropics long established, by this time and at least a rudimentary awareness of the efficacy of citrus as an antiscorbutic. Capt Elias -Renaissance Geek of the Cyber Seas Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 15:23:02 -0500 From: "Jeff Gedney" Subject: Citrus, Scurvy and The Royal Navy To: Cooks within the SCA Venturing companies (and government "Navies" in time of war) had to pay restitution and/or pensions to widows and orphans of crewmen lost in legitimate action or accident, according to the various laws such as the Law of Oleron. They did not have to pay for criminals killed for offense, deserters, mutineers, and victims of crew to crew violent crime aboard ship. They DID have to pay for the hospitalization or upkeep of men who were disabled and had to be placed in the care of whatever hospital facilities are nearest. How much these laws were complied with on a regular basis is unknown, but it is pretty clear that care and maintenance of sick men ashore and afloat was a significant expense. It is also clear that these expenses were often only partially paid and often only after a great deal of intercession and legal challenge. Naturally the worst sufferers were men who were not in the care of a "good" captain who believed that he was feudally responsible for those in his charge. Many captains and some admirals were beggared and some totally ruined in the days after the Armada, as the practice was that the crewmen had to be paid as soon as they set foot on land, and the promised payment to the ships owners and captains for their service was very slow in coming from the Admiralty. Consequently the men were forced to remain on board for several months, *in harbor*, eating rotten food and drinking foul water and sour beer. There was an epidemic through the fleet, and many captains were forced to set men ashore and make up their care and pay out of their personal funds. Good book on the subject: "Medicine and the Navy 1200-1900" by JJ Keevil (2 vols) Also: Enterprise of England the Spanish Armada by Roger Whiting The enterprise of England; an account of her emergence as an oceanic power. by Woodrooffe, Thomas Capt Elias -Renaissance Geek of the Cyber Seas Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 11:32:27 -0400 From: "Jeff Gedney" Subject: RE: sour cabbage - German recipe To: Cooks within the SCA > I was told once and never got docs on it. That an > English captain in the late 1500s, mentions an > observation that the Germanic nations' sailors did > not seem to suffer like English sailors of scurvy. > This was attributed to the consumption of pickled > cabbage. In order to get his crew to eat the pickled > cabbage, he had a barrel brought on board and had it > labeled for officers only. Sounds up my alley... I'll see what I can find... But it sounds apocryphal. Ship's stores were generally closely watched and apportioned out by stewards. Stuff listed for the captain's table would not go into the general "messe" in the way described. The English would eat almost anything to relieve their boredom of the beer biscuit and salt cod/salt beef diet...including eskimo dog, penguin, manatee, dolphin, corn, grass, whatever the can catch or gather that might be conceivably or even remotely edible. I think if they were put ashore in Germany, after months of eating weevily biscuit, maggoty salt beef and cod, drinking scummy water, and smelling the gasses that issued from the festering bilges every night as they try to sleep, that a fresh crock of sauerkraut in a dry German inn would seem like cheese and wine on a bed of rose petals. I seriously doubt that they would have to be coaxed into eating any sort of fresh food. On scurvy: I know that in the Elizabethan period the cause and cure of scurvy was still widely unknown. A major complication being that the modern concept of Scurvy as a vitamin C deficiency rarely was experienced. The period Scurvy diagnosis usually included descriptions of symptoms associated with other vitamin deficiencies, such as "wet" beriberi (A vitamin B1 deficiency usually associated with the high alcohol content of the sailor's diet), and pellagra. There were lots of theories as to causation, yes, but the notion of a purely dietary deficiency causing the condition was not among them. The most usual period theory being that the very atmosphere of the ocean was bad for you, the very ocean was inimical to non ocean based life. This was commonly called "malaria"(bad air "mal+aria"). Once you got back on the wholesome land, the very vapors of the good earth cured you. It was pretty well established hat some foods and medicines would help to deter the condition at sea, but why they worked was anyone's guess, ad the exact foods and medicines recommended varied from pace to place and era to era. For example, it was known that some fruits deterred scurvy, but it was thought that the acidic nature of the foods was the curative agency, so in his 1565 voyage, Sir John Hawkins shipped, and distributed, his favorite remedy for scurvy, which was a mixture of sulfuric acid, sugar and water. (and you thought Coke was bad for the teeth!) Source: Keevil, J. J., "Medicine and the Navy: 1200-1900: Vol 1 1200-1649", E. & S. Livingstone, Edinburgh, 1957 Capt Elias Dragonship Haven, East (Stratford, CT, USA) Apprentice in the House of Silverwing Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 22:41:05 -0400 From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] 100 Mile Feast To: Cooks within the SCA On Sep 20, 2006, at 9:31 PM, Daniel Phelps wrote: > For what it is worth in furtherance of this discussion I was just > reading Cheyney's "A History of England, From the Defeat of the > Armada to the Death of Elizabeth" Vol. 1. In the chapter titled > "The Seizure of Contraband" it is cited that on the 27th of July > (1588) the council issued from the court at Nonesuch a formal > "order and decree" for the forfeiture of goods seized on certain > neutral German ships bound for Spain. Under "Victual" are listed > "Bacon, Corne, Wheate, Barley, Meale, Beanes, Peason and such > lyke." Such would suggest to me some of the more common bulk > commodities in trade which were shipped long distances by sea in > the last quarter of the 16th century. If I might inquire: > Would Peason be peas? Extremely likely. Middle English texts refer to "peyson" > What is the consensus regarding what grain is ground for "Meale" > in this reference? Could be almost anything. Actually, I'm more interested in what the "corne" was, if not barley or wheat. Bear in mind, though, that this is listed as "Victual", and not as cargo. IOW, strictly speaking, not necessarily direct evidence of import or export, and perhaps merely that sailors had to eat. It could probably be argued either way... Adamantius Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 06:15:38 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] 100 Mile Feast To: "Cooks within the SCA" Peason is the plural of pease and is as you surmise, peas in modern English. Meal is any ground grain other than wheat, which is flour. The usage is imprecise, so it is impossible to determine the actual grain unless mentioned. The German ships metioned are very probably from the Hanse (Hanseatic League) which formally began in 1241 and held its last meeting in 1669. The Hanse controlled much of the trade in Northern Europe from the Baltic to Spain and all points in between. Bear > For what it is worth in furtherance of this discussion I was just reading > Cheyney's "A History of England, From the Defeat of the Armada to the > Death of Elizabeth" Vol. 1. In the chapter titled "The Seizure of > Contraband" it is cited that on the 27th of July (1588) the council issued > from the court at Nonesuch a formal "order and decree" for the forfeiture > of goods seized on certain neutral German ships bound for Spain. Under > "Victual" are listed "Bacon, Corne, Wheate, Barley, Meale, Beanes, Peason > and such lyke." Such would suggest to me some of the more common bulk > commodities in trade which were shipped long distances by sea in the last > quarter of the 16th century. If I might inquire: > Would Peason be peas? > What is the consensus regarding what grain is ground for "Meale" in > this reference? > > Daniel Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 06:25:32 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] 100 Mile Feast To: "Cooks within the SCA" Corn, in the British usage, tends to be the major grain grown in a region. This was very likely rye, if coming out of Northern Europe headed to Spain. A synonym for victuals is provisions. I doubt the English would seize a ship's food, but if the quantities were large, they might consider such as military provisions. However, 1588 is the year of the Armada and the is less than two weeks before the English engaged them on August 7, so they might be trying to stop anything from getting through to Spain. Bear > Could be almost anything. Actually, I'm more interested in what the > "corne" was, if not barley or wheat. Bear in mind, though, that this > is listed as "Victual", and not as cargo. IOW, strictly speaking, not > necessarily direct evidence of import or export, and perhaps merely > that sailors had to eat. > > It could probably be argued either way... > > Adamantius Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 21:28:08 -0400 From: "Daniel Phelps" Subject: [Sca-cooks] Confiscated Goods was 100 Mile Feast To: "Cooks within the SCA" Was written: Could be almost anything. Actually, I'm more interested in what the "corne" was, if not barley or wheat. Bear in mind, though, that this is listed as "Victual", and not as cargo. IOW, strictly speaking, not necessarily direct evidence of import or export, and perhaps merely that sailors had to eat. My response: Regards "corne" I'm confused as to what it was. Side note the listing "Victual" was preceded by "Munityon" which contained as one would expect callyvers, muskettes, armour, powder, brimston, saltpeter, bulletts, copper, leade and matche as well as cables, masts, anchors, cordage, pitch, tarre, tallow and pitchstone. It also included "Ordynance not belonginge to the shipps, canvas and Danske Poldavyers". Does anyone recognize what "Danske Poldavyers" were? Was further written: The German ships mentioned are very probably from the Hanse (Hanseatic League) which formally began in 1241 and held its last meeting in 1669. The Hanse controlled much of the trade in Northern Europe from the Baltic to Spain and all points in between. My response: The ships were from Konigsberg, Dantzig, Stralsund, Rostock, Stettin, Wismar, Lubeck, and Hamburg. The court declared that although the ships and their cargoes might justly be confiscated, the queen nevertheless intend only to take the munitions of war and victuals contained in them, leaving the vessels themselves with all their other commodities to their owners. Ultimately in response to protests of the Hanse towns. the court instructed on 8 August of that year that the captured goods be divided into three categories; contraband goods, "mere merchandise" not useful for purposes of war and goods belonging to subjects of the king of Spain. The first and third were confiscated the second was to be either returned or sold and the result paid to the ship owners. Was further written: Corn, in the British usage, tends to be the major grain grown in a region. This was very likely rye, if coming out of Northern Europe headed to Spain. Rye was listed separately but as this list was intended to not just include what was on the ships but also "...articles which then and in the future should be subject to confiscation if taken by a neutral into the dominions of any of England's enemies..." perhaps the term was included for completeness. Alternatively they might have been going from one or more of the ships cargo manifests and that was how such was listed. Daniel Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 20:53:02 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Confiscated Goods was 100 Mile Feast To: "Cooks within the SCA" > Regards "corne" I'm confused as to what it was. Side note the listing > "Victual" was preceded by "Munityon" which contained as one would expect > callyvers, muskettes, armour, powder, brimston, saltpeter, bulletts, > copper, leade and matche as well as cables, masts, anchors, cordage, > pitch, tarre, tallow and pitchstone. It also included "Ordynance not > belonginge to the shipps, canvas and Danske Poldavyers". Does anyone > recognize what "Danske Poldavyers" were? Danske Poldavyers is Danish-made sailcloth canvas (probably in bolts) in this usage. Poldavyers is a coarse canvas used for sacking and sailcloth. > Was further written: > > Corn, in the British usage, tends to be the major grain grown in a region. > This was very likely rye, if coming out of Northern Europe headed to > Spain. > > Rye was listed separately but as this list was intended to not just > include what was on the ships but also "...articles which then and in the > future should be subject to confiscation if taken by a neutral into the > dominions of any of England's enemies..." perhaps the term was included > for completeness. Alternatively they might have been going from one or > more of the ships cargo manifests and that was how such was listed. > > Daniel It is also possible that it was an indeterminate mix of grains and was simple called corn rather than maslin, which is more commonly a mix of rye and wheat. Bear ?? ?? ?? ?? Edited by Mark S. Harris ships-msg Page 51 of 51