ships-msg - 1/24/08 Ships and shipbuilding. Sailor's food. Privateers. NOTE: See also these files: pirates-msg, med-ships-art, ships-bib, nav-inst-msg, boat-building-msg, Seakeeping-p1-art, Seakeeping-p2-art, rope-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: moonman at camelot.bradley.edu (Craig Levin) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Mariners, ships and like that Date: 4 Oct 1993 18:04:09 -0500 Organization: House of the Moss Rose uf380 at freenet.Victoria.BC.CA (William Underhill) writes: >To any gentles out there who share this interest, >From Lord William the Mariner, greetings, salutations and salute >the brow... Salutations, fellow waterman! >Are there any gentles out there who have an interest in naval and >marine history? By this I mean anything from marine architecture >to naval battles, from navigation to techniques of sail - in shoret >(sp) anything connected with ships and sailing? I'd sure like to hear >from you. Also, does anyone out there (interested or not) know of >some good sources for research material (don't anyone say "Try your >local library, please. Despite the fact that we have a naval facility >just a loud shout down the road from here, you'd think ships never >existed until the turn of the century, to judge by what they have >in the local public and university libraries. >William the Mariner Sure. I can come up with a few titles & authors right off the bat. Anything by S. E. Morison, is good. Not only is he a Harvard historian, he is a dedicated yachtsman, so anything he says about the voyages of exploration is pretty much verifiable-he's sailed along their routes, and understands the problems of the sailor. Hakluyt's PRINCIPALL NAVIGATIONS is one of the best Tudor annals of exploration. John Hale's another excellent author, as is J. H. Parry. There's also H. A. Calahan, but you ought to take whatever he says with a _large_ grain of sea salt. David Howarth's work, SOVEREIGN OF THE SEAS, covers all of period England, and can be extrapolated to the rest of period North Europe. Pedro de Alcazar -- Craig\The Moonman\Levin Pedro de Alcazar moonman at camelot.bradley.edu Shire of Dernehealde, Midrealm From: moonman at camelot.bradley.edu (Craig Levin) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Mariners, ships and like that Date: 4 Oct 1993 23:01:41 -0500 Organization: House of the Moss Rose blaxson at shade.UWaterloo.ca (Brian A.Laxson) writes: >BTW Does anyone know of the capacity for cargo of late-period wooden >ships. (I.e. 17 th century Galleons) My "local gathering of books" >listed several launch weights but no references to the CARGO after crew, >cannons, food stores etc. Unfortunately, they did not think in terms of cargo tonnage as we do. In fact, David Howarth, in his excellent book SOVEREIGNS OF THE SEA, more or less admits that the the value of a "ton" varied from time to time. But, if what we can glean from marine archaeology is correct, by 1415, ships as large as 1400 tons were being constructed. However, these were very rare-in fact, they were built by Henry V for his French wars. More typical vessels were in the 80-550 ton range, in the 1550's. -- Craig\The Moonman\Levin Pedro de Alcazar moonman at camelot.bradley.edu Shire of Dernehealde, Midrealm Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: mikes at silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Michael L. Squires) Subject: Re: Mariners, ships and like that Summary: Chaucer and William Bourne Keywords: navigation Organization: Indiana University Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1993 04:59:53 GMT >>Are there any gentles out there who have an interest in naval and >>marine history? By this I mean anything from marine architecture Chaucer wrote a little book on the use of the astrolabe; I got a copy from the Folger very cheaply. William Bourne's Regiment for the Sea was published about 1570 and was a standard text for navigation into the 17th century. There are also a number of 16th century English manuals on cannon, but I haven't seen them. The Hakluyt Society published the Regiment and a number of other books on similar topics. They should be in a big library. From: huff at bronze.lcs.mit.EDU (Robert Huff) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Mariners, ships and like that Date: 5 Oct 1993 17:13:57 -0400 My local library has a really neat (if post-Restoration) book called _Deane's Doctrine_, a reprint of a manual by Sir John Deane. It's sort of a price guide/mil-spec/architects meta-manual on how to build warships. (This is from memory of about two years ago - permission to quote me is not granted ....) Diego Mundoz Carolingia Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (michael squires) Subject: Re: Mid 11c. Ships Organization: Indiana University Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1993 16:41:18 GMT > Greetings. Are there any ship pilots resting here at the bridge? I am > looking for information regarding merchant ships mainly sailing the English > channel in the 11c. Any literary refrences would be helpful. Look up the name "Bass" in your local card catalog. He is an important underwater archaeologist and has written or co-authored books on shipping. I have a table-top book which shows photos and reconstructions of ships from the bronze age to the Vasa which he authored. -- Michael L. Squires, Ph.D Manager of Instructional Computing, Freshman Office, Chemistry Department, IU Bloomington, IN 47405 812-855-0852 (o) 81-333-6564 (h) mikes at indiana.edu, mikes at ucs.indiana.edu, or mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu From: james at nucleus.cuc.ab.CA (James Prescott) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Mid 11c. Ships Date: 22 Dec 1993 17:47:52 -0500 Organization: Atomic Data Communications Try: Lewis, A.R. and Runyan, T.J. European Naval and Maritime History, 300-1500 Indiana University Press 1990 ISBN 0-253-20573-5 (pbk.) - Thorvald Grimsson/James Prescott (james at nucleus.cuc.ab.ca) From: dickeney at access2.digex.net (Dick Eney) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Drakkar Date: 3 Feb 1994 21:26:38 -0500 Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA Peter Rose <WISH at uriacc.uri.EDU> wrote: >Does anyone know what a Drakkar is? I know it's some kind of boat, >but that's about it. > --Azelin It's the rowing galley used as a warship by the Vikings (as contrasted with the "roundships" used as merchantmen). Means "dragon"; also spelled drekkar; latter spelling is that used for the newsletter of Storvik in Atlantia (storvik = "great bay"). The Longship Company of the Markland Militia has a reconstructed Viking longship, a drakkar, and named "Fyrdraca" ("dragon of the war-band"). She normally cruises with six oars manned on a side but can, I believe, accomodate twenty (10 a side) plus a handful of passengers and everybody's gear. 'Nuf for now? |-- Vuong Manh (dickeney at access.digex.com) Storvik, Atlantia | Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: clevin at oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Craig Martin Levin) Subject: Re: Medieval Sea Ports Organization: Ohio University CS Dept,. Athens Date: Sat, 9 Apr 1994 17:21:57 GMT Joseph Heck <ccjoe at showme.missouri.edu> wrote: >What were the common sea ports along the 'irish sea basin'. I would assume >Dublin would be right up there, as perhaps Barmouth... but does anyone know >the other ports - specifically in Ireland & Wales? Or, for that matter, >where I could find out? The Irish Sea wasn't much of a trade route, as compared to the Mediterranean or even the Narrow Seas. I think your best bet is a book by the title of A NAVAL HISTORY OF ENGLAND, by G. J. Marcus, but even he though he's "comprehensive", says little about the Irish Sea. Maybe you might try poking around in the index of the Mariner's Mirror, which is a great magazine for the study of maritime history. -- Craig Levin Pedro de Alcazar Ohio University History Department Shire of Dernehealde clevin at oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu Midrealm Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: ab575 at FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Rebecca Cairns) Subject: Mary Rose Report Organization: The National Capital FreeNet, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Date: Tue, 3 May 1994 18:29:10 GMT Isabella sends greetings unto all gathered on the bridge this fine day: As previously promised, here is Betsy True's report on the Mary Rose lecture given by Ann Stirland last Thursday in Madison, WI. The report is quite detailed and definitely of interest to readers of the Rialto. For those who are interested, Betsy also posted an encoded file that is the picture of "an orate ship" which may or may not be the Mary Rose. This graphic was encoded using BinHex 4.0 for the MAC. To save bandwidth, I won't post this file but if anyone is interested, they can drop me a line and I'll e-mail it to them directly. If any in this forum also attended the lecture and wish to add their own report, I'd be interested to see it, as would others, I'm sure. --------------------------- Begin Included Message --------------------------- Newsgroups: bit.listserv.scuba-l From: btrue at MACC.WISC.EDU Subject: LONG: account of Mary Rose lecture Date: Mon May 2 19:34:33 1994 An account of Ann Stirlind's lecture on the Wreck of the Mary Rose The Mary Rose and her Crew: The Manning, Sinking and Raising of King Henry the VIII's Flagship Ann Stirland, University College London, Editor, International Journal of Osteoarchaeology Ann Stirland's background is as a physical anthropologist. A more complete description of artifacts is given in the book of similar name by Margory Rule, published in 1982 by Windward Press. When Henry VIII came to the throne in 1509 he inherited 5 ships and set about building a navy with the ambition of reclaiming France. The Mary Rose was named after a favorite sister, her keel laid in 1511, sank in 1545, raised and refitted in 1546 to be a warship. Three named personnel were Sir George Carou, (Admiral?) Thomas Spait, Shipmaster, and Sir Thomas Windam, Captain. The crew consisted of soldiers (gunners and archers) under the captain and sailors under the master's direction for a total of 415 people. In the only existing illustration done of her from 1546, she is shown to be a 4 masted barque, about 600 tons, with two castles (bow and stern), refitted with guns. There are several rows of gun ports along sides, the lower set quite close to the water level. (90 guns were later found.) A tent of heavy netting is stretched over the tops of the castles, presumed to be an anti-boarding device and is believed to have trapped many of the men during sinking (the only 30 survivors believed to have been in the rigging). On a calm morning in July, the Mary Rose sailed out of Portsmouth harbor into the Isle of Wight sound to do battle. She turned to starboard to present her broadside guns, heeled over and sank very suddenly in 40 fee of water without a shot fired. She came to rest at 60o angle in soft silt. An attempt was made by an Italian team to raise her but they only succeeded in pulling her masts out. Over time the tides and storms filled her in and eroded away the exposed port side, a shelly sea bed was laid down over all. Her exact location was lost over time until 1980's when amateur archeologist located her and this was confirmed by side scanning equipment. The sound is contaminated by effluent from seaside towns (conger eels mentioned), low viz and generally unpleasant to dive in. Exploration and excavation of this site was accelerated using local divers (including Prince Charles). A decision was made to raise the wreck. The Royal Engineers made a plan to place a sling around her and raise her into a cradle on a barge and this was done on live TV (with mishap). She now can be viewed in a Portsmouth museum undergoing a 20 year conservation plan. Her significance as a wreck is due to the fact that she is the only Tudor warship found. Although nothing on this ship has the name "Mary Rose", archeologists are quite sure of her identity because of the ornateness and elaborateness of the artifacts and the presence of Henry VIII's insignia on some guns. The planking construction shows both clinker style (overlapping) in her older construction and the newer carvel style (butt joints, end-to-end) in the parts that were modified when she was made a warship. The carvel planking allowed them to make gun ports with doors that sealed better when shut, and generally was easier to seal. Some of these were no more than one meter from the water level and her sinking is thought to be caused by shipping water during that starboard turn with the gun ports open. Of the 90 guns found, one was 12 feet long, some weighed 2 tons, were in a range of sizes, including a smaller brass swivel gun. Some were quite ornate and had a Tudor rose insignia. Items found: molds and cannon ball shot of various sizes, novel anti-personnel missiles of flint shards wrapped in light wood, carved linstocks (to light the cannons), English long bows (of yew wood from other parts of world), boxes of arrows in silk bindings (no flights or points), leather circles with holes (thought to be arrow spacers or a round of ammo unit.). The bows are remarkable in that they are of extraordinary draw weight. Modern bows are at 40-60 lbs. Of these, most were at least 125 lbs, a few at 80 lbs, and three at 180 lbs (had to be sitting to use). This is beyond most modern athletes ability to draw, a record mentioned was about 80 lbs. Ann mentioned that all able bodied men of that age were supposed to be practiced at long bow from the age of 6 onward. The site was well preserved by the anaerobic environment of the silt. Other artifacts included: Ship's bell (brass?), block and tackle (wooden), tools (wooden, metal), ship's compass (metal), carpenters tools (wooden, metal), lantern (wooden), dishes (wooden), spoons (wooden), bottles, musical instruments, pewter plate ware, tankard (or tyg, wooden), bowl (elm) with personal mark, leather jerkin, leather shoes (with complete feet still in them as bones), combs (with nit's eggs), pepper mill with pepper corns. The barber-surgeon's quarters held an oak chest of tools of his trade. Pottery of various sorts, i.e.. bleeding bowls, knives and saws, urethral syringe (for treatment of gonorrhea with mercury) general anesthetic (mallet!), velvet cap (as seen in a Hans Holbein painting of a barber-surgeon Human remains study was immensely difficult because of the extent of mixing of body parts.totally commingled burial. Ann was impressed, though, by the pristine condition of the bones (muscle insertions very clear) due to the anaerobic environment of silt. She estimated that she has 92 fairly complete skeletons and a sample of a total of 179 bodies. There was bony evidence of battle injuries, occupational stresses and diet. She was impressed that there were few fractures in the collection of bones: 3 ribs (they likely wore half armor), 11 skulls (healed depressed fractures), a nose fracture, a couple of cases of healed child hood rickets and an avulsion fracture of the tibia (muscular pulling of bone). Bony avulsion fracture of tibia was similar to same occurring when one jumps down to a surface moving upward (like a ship deck). One unusual spinal lumbar area showed overgrowth locking of articular surfaces. She postulated might be from working in a low ceilinged gun bay (construction showed to be lower than average height of men) hauling great weight of cannon where the added stress of having to work slightly bent over would show in the bones. She felt the shoulders showed stress of lifelong archery practice from her research into Olympic athletes' injuries: 14.5% unjoined acromium (?) where 3% is normal. One skull had a neat healed impression of a bodkin armor piercing arrowhead point in the cranium, a possible shot from above and through an inadequate helmet. Ann theorizes that these men were probably healthier and larger in stature than the normal population of the time. They were all males, ages ranging from late teens to over 40, one 10 year old, possibly a cabin boy. Because of the hosts of people coming forward spuriously claiming descendancy and reburial, the caretakers of these remains have chosen to keep a low profile and to only make them available for anthropologists' study, so they are not on display. Betsy True, Medical Illustrator Medical Illustration, Univ. of WI-Madison H6/134 CSC 608-263-6028 btrue at macc.wisc.edu ---------------------------- End Included Message ---------------------------- In service to the Dream, *---------------------------------------------------------------------------* * SCA: Isabella Oakwood | * * Barony of Skraeling Althing, | "I hear and I forget, * * Ealdormere, Midrealm | I see and I remember, * * MKA: Rebecca Cairns | I do and I understand." * * Kanata, Ontario Canada | - Confucius. * * NET: ab575 at FreeNet.carleton.ca | * *---------------------------------------------------------------------------* Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (michael squires) Subject: Re: steam engine Summary: they had the technology Organization: Indiana University Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 15:42:05 GMT Suze.Hammond at f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Suze Hammond) writes: >As James Burke has so often pointed out in "Connections", many ideas are >tinkered with off and on for centuries until some much-needed technology >(such as consistant metalurgy for decent boilers, and the technology to >make a relatively air tight piston-to-cylinder fit, in this case) catches >up to the imaginations of humanity. One of the (main deck?) guns on the Mary Rose, sunk 1545 and raised in 1981, was a breech-loader made of a single sheet of wrought iron forged around a mandrel using a large trip-hammer and forge-welded into a cylinder. When discovered it was thought to be one of the standard iron guns forged out of bundles of iron rods, but X-rays showed the true structure. Iron was delivered to the gunworks in "blooms" which had to first be forged into a sheet or rod before being forged into a cannon. Later in the century the English figured out how to cast iron into large cannons with a fairly small risk of explosion. The casting process required the bore be drilled out after casting. Muzzle-loaders replaced breech-loaders as gunpowder got much better during the late 16th century and gunnery tactics moved towards longer ranges and the breech-loaders couldn't contain the gas pressure. Piston seals were made of leather into the late 19th century. The main problem for a 20th century engineer caught in 16th century England would be (1) the boiler (2) something useful to do with the engine. Steam engines came into common use in England and Wales to pump out mines which had been mined so deeply that water was filling up the diggings, and horse/ox/man power was insufficient to pump out the water. -- Michael L. Squires, Ph.D Manager of Instructional Computing, Freshman Office, Chemistry Department, IU Bloomington, IN 47405 812-855-0852 (o) 81-333-6564 (h) mikes at indiana.edu, mikes at ucs.indiana.edu, or mikes at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: re: Viking Ship Info Date: 26 Mar 1995 21:03:06 -0600 Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway <from: dnb105 at psu.edu (Ferret)> >Could you possibly E-mail or post any dimensions of the original ships ? >Most noteable the keel depth and displaement. Perhaps easier would be some >titles that include dimensions or prints. You might try a book called _The Viking_, published by Crescent Books, in 1975 (and later) in agreement with the original publishers AB Nordbok. There is no specific author, although Bertil Almgren is the "Chief Contributor". The LC number is 82-830302 (for that matter, since PSU doesn't appear to have a copy, the OCLC number is 9371738). It's not the archaeological work I'd prefer to suggest to you, but it's got some decent drawings in it (and has the added bonus on not being in Danish :) ). "Mihi Satis Apparet Propter Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn Se Ipsum Appetenda Sapientia" University of Northkeep -- St. Dunstan Northkeepshire, Ansteorra (I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu) From: 2Lt Aryeh JS Nusbacher <nusbacher-a at rmc.ca> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Sailcloth (was Re: SCA Fallacies) Date: 14 Apr 1995 17:51:07 GMT Organization: Royal Military College of Canada I don't know about Mediterranean sails, but English and other northern European sails were made out of hemp, not cotton, for most of the period that there _were_ sails. Aryk Nusbacher | Post-Graduate War Studies Programme | Royal Military College of Canada | Kingston, Ontario From: darrell.markewitz at ambassador.com (Darrell Markewitz) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: VIKNG SHIP LAUNCH Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 13:45:20 GMT Organization: AMBASSADOR BOARD (519) 925-2642 HST/V.32bis This is a copy of a note I sent to the CBC - you all will be interested! VIKING SHIP is launched in Newfoundland! I am writing you to let you know about a developing story taking place in Newfoundland. Viking Boat Tours is a new commercial venture being 'launched' by Paul Compton of St. Lunaire. He has organized the research, design and construction of a replica of a Norse 'knaar', the same type of vessel that brought the first European colonists to North America, some time about the turn of the first millennium. The 'Viking Saga' is a 43 ft version of the type of merchant ship that was used by the Norse traders who followed in the wake of the better known Viking 'dragon ships'. Although fitted out to modern safety standards, the 'Viking Saga' is based on the slightly larger ship known as Skuldelev 1, excavated in Denmark. The original ship is dated to the 11th century, roughly contemporary to the settlement at L'anse aux Meadows, Newfoundland. The World Heritage Site at L'anse aux Meadows preserves the remains of this first settlement attempt by the Norse. It pre-dates the much heralded English colonies on the American east coast by some 600 years. A combination of archaeological and saga evidence dates the settlement to some time between 996 and 1010 AD. The site was not discovered until the early 1960's by the Norwegian Helge Ingstad. It consists of the ruins of some 10 structures, including dwellings, boat sheds and a forge. The colony is thought to have endured for about four years before it was abandoned. It may have also served as an over wintering shelter and ship repair station. My connection with this enterprise is small. As a blacksmith specializing in historic reproductions, I have produced a few items for the project. I have had a long interest in the Norse culture and the exploration of Vinland. In 1993 & 94, I researched and produced historic display based on the L'anse aux Meadows settlement for the Orangeville Medieval Festival. The Viking Saga thus is the first ship of its type to be built in Canada for 1000 years. It is a tribute to the beginnings of European history in Canada. The story of Viking Boat Tours marks a success story in a region that has had little good news of late. For more information reguarding the launch of the Viking Saga contact: Paul Compton Viking Boat Tours Box 45 St. Lunaire, NFLD, A0K 2X0 709-623-2464 709-623-2098 (FX) Submitted by: Darrell Markewitz the Wareham Forge the Hamlet of Wareham RR # 2 Proton Station, ON, N0C 1L0 519-923-9219 (wareham.forge at ambassador.com) From: 2Lt Aryeh JS Nusbacher <nusbacher-a at rmc.ca> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Hard Tack anyone? Date: 19 Jun 1995 16:52:30 GMT Organization: Royal Military College of Canada elbert at robles.callutheran.edu (Faedrah) wrote: > I'm doing a report on the food eaten by sailors from the year 1550 BACK. > hard tack is a likely kinda thing as well as jerky, limes, and don't for- > get the rum rations! I would suggest that before 1550, you would find none of the above; except perhaps some sort of dried meat (more likely salt pork), and perhaps not even that. Ship's biscuit, but not, I think, hardtack. Fresh meat and vegetables, on the other hand, do not seem unlikely. Remember that before 1550, almost all maritime routes were coastwise. Even early voyages of exploration (Vasco da Gama, for instance) were largely extended coasting expeditions. Captains had ample opportunity for putting in to buy supplies, hunt local wildlife, and drive the dodo into extinction. The Spanish Plate Fleet was just starting to be deployed on its annual run to America in the 16th century; and it sailed with long-haul supplies; but off the top of my head I think that in addition to carrying water and biscuit, ships carried a certain amount of livestock. Salt fish, of course, was a staple of all military and naval supply around 1550 in most of Europe; especially herring from the North Sea and cod from the Grand Banks. Garrett Mattingly's book on the Armada covers a lot of the logistical considerations of the Invincible Armada of 1588, but remember that even that expedition touched shore at several points before expecting to reach the Netherlands. I think a ration of spirits in the Navy probably dates back to the use of Irish grain alcohol as a substitute for the more usual beer ration during the late sixteenth century wars in Ireland. Rum would have waited for extensive planting in the West Indies in the 17th century, but again that is off the top of my head. Additional protein and crunch was, of course, provided by the weevils in the biscuits. Aryk Nusbacher | Post-Graduate War Studies Programme | Royal Military College of Canada | nusbacher-a at rmc.ca Kingston, Ontario http://www.rmc.ca/~nusbache/home.html From: rorice at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (rosalyn rice) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Hard Tack anyone? Date: 20 Jun 1995 02:04:58 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington 2Lt Aryeh JS Nusbacher <nusbacher-a at rmc.ca> wrote: >Additional protein and crunch was, of course, provided by the weevils >in the biscuits. But if you knocked the edge of the biscuit against a hard surface like a table then you could shake the weevils out and enjoy a protien-free repast. (Either that or you could soak the biscuit in water or broth and then skim the inhabitants off the top, but the former method was more common in the navy.) Lothar (as much a landsman as Aryk but aware of this bit of naval trivia.) From: scj427 at aol.com (SCJ427) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Hard Tack anyone? Date: 25 Jun 1995 03:36:56 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Try turning the hard tack into soup. Salt Pork Hard Tack or Ship's Biscuit Dried Beans Water Soak overnight and then boil.... it actually tastes excellent and the ingredients can keep for an eon on the shelf if kept dry and free from vermin. Stefan MacMorrow ap Rhovannon From: colette at morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Colette Goodyear) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Hard Tack anyone? Date: 22 Jun 1995 15:14:37 GMT Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland 2Lt Aryeh JS Nusbacher <nusbacher-a at rmc.ca> wrote: >Ship's biscuit, but not, I think, hardtack. There's a question I've been asking myself--what is the difference between the two? All the primary references that I've seen refers to "ship's biscuit." For a while, I blithely assumed that ship's biscuit and hard tack were the same thing To bring this OOP for a second--looking at my Dictionary of Newfoundland English, I find that hard tack and sea biscuit are used interchangeably to refer to the same thing from the mid-1700's onwards (the first citation the DNE gives dates to 1766). However, the sources quoted in the Dictionary are drawn from works that were written specifically about Newfoundland so there is a possibility that this is a regional thing. Nowadays, the stuff is referred to variously as "biscuit" (rare), "sea-biscuit," "hard-tack," "ship's bread" (again, rare), and "brewis." Sometimes people make a distinction between the uncooked cakes (hard-tack) and the cooked dish (brewis). The commercially available stuff is marked "hard bread" on the package and gives a recipe for Brewis on the side. But, then again, I've never seen the term "hard tack" used in the period that Faedrah and myself are interested in. So I'm starting to wonder (a) what is the difference between the two and (b) when and why did the terms become interchangeable (at least in this area of the world)? Crunching on a piece of the stuff (ow!) as I write this, Alienor colette at plato.ucs.mun.ca From: Tfranklin <franklin at merlin.nando.net> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Drakkars Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 00:51:37 -0400 (EDT) Organization: News & Observer Public Access "Drakkars" were "Dragon Ships". On an 80 foot long Dragon ship the mast rose 60-66 feet above the bridge, and the sail itself was more than 330 square feet. By the way, I haven't found any indication that any Vikings ever named themselves after their boats. An informative book on the subject of Vikings is" The Vikings: Lords of the Seas" by Yves Cohat (Discoveries, Harry N. Abrams, Inc. Publishers, NY) ISBN 0-8109-2865-5 Tfranklin the Librarian From: Tfranklin <franklin at merlin.nando.net> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Drakkar: Reposted Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 00:15:51 -0400 (EDT) Organization: News & Observer Public Access Several days ago Hal Heydt quoted my posting... >Tfranklin <franklin at merlin.nando.net> wrote: > On an 80 foot long Dragon ship the mast rose 60-66 feet above the >bridge, and the sail itself was more than 330 square feet. ...and wrote: >Any chance you dropped a zero there? By rough calculations, that >would make the sail about 5 feet wide, which seems a tad >narrow... > > --Hal Ravn Shortly thereafter Gene Clyatt added: >Sure was easy to store, though it wouldn't catch much wind, eh? >Fian To which I respond today: No, I did not drop a zero. Allow me to refer you again to "The Vikings: Lords of the Seas" by Yves Cohat. (ISBN 0-8109-2865-5 or LC#91-75507) The sentence reads: "The rectangular Viking sail was a great step forward: on an 80-foot-long dragon ship, the mast rose 60-66 feet above the bridge, and the sail itself was more than 330 square feet. (Woven in a double thickness of a raw wool or cloth, the Viking sails were often colored red to draw attention to the ship.)" The book includes many pictures, including several of the Viking ships. All of the illustrations show the bottom of the sail being several feet *above* the level of the boat. In fact, to quote from pages 7 and 8 of "Great Adventures of the Vikings" by John Geipel (ISBN 528-82204-7 or LC#77-72486), he describes a Viking longboat which was found by archaeologists: "Measuring 77.6 feet (23.5 meters) from stem to stern, 7.6 feet (2.3 meters) across the beam, and 6 feet (1.9 meters) from keel to gunwales...the mast originally must...have towered about 39.6 feet (12 meters) above the deck. It's yardarm which measured 36.3 feet (11 meters) supported a huge rectangular sail of "wadmal", a rough woolen cloth." I guess Hal's figures were based on a sail which started at the deck and went to the top of the mast. In that case, Gene would be correct in his assumption that it might be easy to store, although not very good for catching wind. In reality, the sail clearly did *not* cover the entire length of the mast, allowing for a greater width than five feet. Thomas the Librarian From: Kel Rekuta <krekuta at tor.hookup.net> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: How to build a corracle? Date: 24 Sep 1995 14:47:25 GMT Organization: HookUp Communication Corporation, Oakville, Ontario, CANADA > A friend asked me if I can find instructions on how to build a corracle. > Can anyone help? Please e-mail as well as posting; I'm going to be away > for a couple weeks and probably won't see the posting. I would ask A. G. Smith, an illustrator, publisher and medieval engineer / tinkerer. He built one about ten years back. Its about eight feet long and looks like a huge walnut shell half. Whether it floats, I couldn't say. However, everything else I've seen him build works fine, so I wouldn't be surprised. He lives in Windsor Ontario and is in the phone book. Perhaps someone on the 'Net in Windsor or Detroit could be more specific as to his address. Ceallach From: "Jim N. Deakin" <J.N.Deakin at shu.ac.uk> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re how to build a corracle Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 11:00:04 GMT Organization: Sheffield Hallam University Arval said: > A friend asked me if I can find instructions on how to build a corracle. > Can anyone help? Please e-mail as well as posting; I'm going to be away > for a couple weeks and probably won't see the posting. In 'Practical Wood Working' for January 1993 (vol 27, No 11), there is an article and plans for a Shrewsbury style coracle, as built on a course at Bewdley Museum. It's a five page article with measurements and plenty of details. It uses some modern materials, but period alternatives should be simple to find. It also uses screws to attach the seat to six support props, which would almost certainly be jointed in, in period. There's also a book (which I haven't the references for with me) called something like 'forgotten crafts'. It's a fairly superficial coffee-table type of book, but it has a single page illustration showing coracle designs from (I think) three different areas. It would probably be possible to adapt the magazine plan to produce similar versions. I'm not sure what the copyright position would be, but if it's impossible for you to get hold of the article I might be able to scan the article and email it to you. Some of it's on coloured paper, so it probably wouldn't photocopy well. In Service, Niall of Stone Ford ......................................................................... From: Jim Deakin, | Sheffield Hallam University | This space deliberately left blank Computer Services, | Pond Hill, | Sheffield S1 1WB | England. | Email on: J.N.DEAKIN at shu.ac.uk From: ejpiii at delphi.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Re how to build a corracle Date: Sat, 30 Sep 95 21:52:50 -0500 "Jim N. Deakin" <J.N.Deakin at shu.ac.uk> writes: >> A friend asked me if I can find instructions on how to build a corracle. In addition to the other post, you could try the Welsh museum in Cardiff Wales. They have several books on the subject, including plans of several versions. You might be able to find them on one of the British history usenet groups, and there may even be a web page. I'm sorry I don't have more complete info, but it's lost in my library, and will likely never see the light of day again! Eddward From: Jeremy J. Johnson <jeremy at jjohnson.demon.co.uk> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: The MAYFLOWER III Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 13:24:40 GMT The Mayflower III The Mayflower III will be an historically accurate (as fars as possible) full size reconstruction of the Pilgrims Mayflower of 1620. She is to be built over the next two years on the River Thames in London, England, and then sailed on a goodwill voyage from England to America early in 1998. She will then return to England in time for the Millennium Celebrations at the end of 1999. We are looking for descendants of the orginal pilgrims, passengers and crew. If you know you are one please get in touch and we will keep you up to date with progress via email and suggest ways that you could get involved with the project. We look forward to talking to you. Our web site (URL below) contains loads of background information about the project, including some really exciting sponsorship opportunities (such as 'Treenail' and Plank sponsorship), details about the construction of the ship and a proposed route for the voyage. Other information such as educational, genealogical and historical resources is in development and will be added over the next two years. Posted by: Jeremy Johnson, WWW: http://www.demon.co.uk/history/mayflower/mayflower.html Email: jeremy at jjohnson.demon.co.uk From: FPAGNIEL at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (Frederick Pagniello) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Row a trireme....for real.... Date: Thu, 14 Mar 96 17:24:35 EST Organization: University of Georgia Salve! I found a flier posted outside the office of the Classics Dept. today, and thought of passing it on to the readers of the newsgroup. ROW IN GREECE JULY 28 to AUGUST 17, 1996 in the larget oared ship in the world Wanted: Physically fit men and women under 5' 10" who have a sense of humor and an appreciation of history Rowing experience desirable but not required For: Sea-trials of the 170-oared Greek trireme Olympias Goals: Sprint speeds over 9 knots Simulate battle manoeuvres FREE accommodations in Greece! A rowing adventure: row in unison with 169 others Contact: Ford Weiskittel, Trireme Trust USA, 803 South Main Street, Geneva, New York 14456. This is all the information that was provided on the flier. Can't reproduce the picture of a trireme sailing under the Greek flag, though. Vale. Gnaeus Valerius Sidero civis Romanus. From: car13 at psu.edu (Claire Rutiser) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Row a trireme.... Now: Viking Longship Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 18:13:16 GMT Organization: CAC FPAGNIEL at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (Frederick Pagniello) writes: >Rowing in a group is not easy, as I discovered in '83 when I had the >opportunity (twice) of rowing on the Viking longship of the Longship Company, >at WorldCon. Never afforded the opportunity of raiding Baltimore Harbor. > >By the by, does anyone have the words to "Bend over Greek sailor"? One of the >songs we rowed to. Vale. The longship this gentleman mentions is the Fyrdraca, a 32 foot 12 oared vessel located at Soloman's Island, Maryland. The Fyrdraca is owned and operated by the Longship Company, which is not really a company but a small non-profit medieval group. We also have the Gyrfalcon, a smaller vessel which we take to demos and events. There are few things more memorable in my life than rowing up the Potomac River one afternoon and evening in October 1991, where we went to meet 3 viking ships which had come over from Norway for the Columbus aniversery. Traffic slowed on the George Washington Parkway (on the Virginia side of the Potomac) and the people who saw us must have mistaken our 32 foot boat for the 60 foot plus boats from Norway. [They used gas engines -we don't.] If anyone is interested in rowing the longship, we would love to have you. We will be having trips about twice a month once the boat gets in the water this spring. There is an email list to notify members of voyages. For more info email me at: car13 at ecl.psu.edu. - Claire From: corwyn at aol.com (CORWYN) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Row a trireme....for real.... Date: 21 Mar 1996 22:31:48 -0500 Admiral Corwyn here I couldnt resist the urge to stick my oar in on this topic, as well as the urge to make the preceeding pun. jkrissw at aol.com (JkrissW) writes > masters at nwlink.com (Tom Gibson) writes: >>The problem >>they had is that rowing (multi-persons per oar) is not something you >>learn in a short time (real oarsmen [slaves] were [ahem] "full-time >>professionals"). >I hate to pierce the bubble of years of Hollywood images, but in the glory >days of the ancient Greek city-states, the rowers were paid or >conscripted, but not slaves. I can't quote a source offhand, but I >remember seeing this in several pertinent histories. There are a number >of references to the oarsmen taking up arms to assist the marines on deck >after their ship had grappled an enemy. Correct on both points. Slave driven oared galleys were most typical in the renn. Mediterranean war galleys (mohammedan and christian) as well as later. Unsuprisingly, the use of slaves required a different (and far simpler) rowing arrangement- one level of oars, with multiple oarsmen chained to it. As a trivia note the outside orasman, who had to keep the pace, and needed some skill, was often a non-enslaved prisioner (ie, a criminal or converted slave). Some good sources for the topic: Casson, L _Ships and seamanship in the ancient world_ Princeton university press, 1971 Anderson, RC, _Oared Fighting ships_ , 1957 Rodgers, WL Greek and Roman Naval Warfare_ naval Institute press, 1937, (recently reprinted) _The age of the galley: mediterranean oared vessles since pre-classical times_ Conway's History of the ship, J Morrison, ed. Naval institute press (in USA) 1995 (The best And most recent of the lot for nuts and bolts of oared ships, construction, use, evolution, etc) Casson, L _The ancient mariners_ Princeton university press, 1991 (very good general reference-the most accessable and cheapest of the lot) Okay. Thanks for your tolerance. I feel much better now. If you are in the Mists (West K). for collegium, and want to know more drop by my class. Avast and belike. Heave along ho. Kedge out the fo'csl yarbloccoughs. Baron Corwyn Da Costa, Lord High Admiral , West kingdom (CINCNAVWEST), etc. From: Corbie <corbie at radix.net> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Vanity SCA plates (was Re: YKYITSCAW...) Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 19:08:18 -0500 Organization: RadixNet Internet Services Ann Sheffield wrote: > > The Longship Company is a group in Maryland that owns, maintains, and > sails/rows a reproduction Viking ship. In the eighties, when a certain > BMW advertising campaign and a certain vogue in fitness equipment > cooincided, they had a bumper sticker that read: > > THE LONGSHIP COMPANY LIMITED: THE ULTIMATE ROWING MACHINE > > -Ann Sheffield I've seen the supposed 'longship' in question (met them at a boat event), and it was quite awful -- the Longship Company apparently had a hard time conveying their wishes to the boatbuilder, and so they got what basically looks like a modern double-ended fishing boat (ca. 1900) with a dragon's head stuck on the front. Bleah. I feel sorry for them when I heard the story of their woes with the shipbuilder. But (from a boatbuilding pov) Dragonships are quite difficult... all that wood to steam-bend! What I don't like about them is the attitude of one of their volunteers, who apparently knows everything possible about Viking life -- he's quite the scholar -- and therefore feels it's his right to be quite arrogant and patronizing to anyone in non-period clothing (as I was -- jeans and a volunteer t-shirt for the organization I was with). Ugh. (Look, do I really need or want a 20-minute dissertation on nalbinding when I'd rather talk to the other volunteers about how the ship actually handles?) Oh well. That's not precisely on-topic for this thread. Just letting off steam... Corbie Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 11:55:36 -0400 From: "James A. Barrow" <redfalcon at thomson.net> Organization: Red Falcon Armouries Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Research Help GWB wrote: > I am relatively new to the Society and am seekign a wee bit of help. I > have chosen a mid 16th century ships master (armed Merchantman) as my > persona. The problem I have is the lack of information on merchant > shipping of that period. > > There appears to be a plethora of information about Naval vessels but > not much on merchant men. The most helpful things I have found so far > are bigraphies of Sir Francis Drake and Sir John Hawkins. > > Alaric Morgenseg, Master of the "Sea Dragon" (the ships name may change > shortly) Like most of the references that you have run across, my knowledge is more to the technical side of the ships rather than the men who sailed them. However, perhaps I can "steer" you in the right direction (OK, so that was weak). Essentially, there were two types of merchant shipping during this time period. The first consisted of transport of goods of state and/or military significance. These merchantmen sailed in larger convoys, protected by whatever vessels the navy could spare at the moment, from the big ships of the line all the way down to the light corvetttes and fast frigates. The second type is what you personna is geared toward: the armed merchantmen, or privateer. At this period in time, the two main seapowers were England and Spain. France had not yet arisen as a strong force in overseas trade and colonization, and Portugal, who historically had a strong seafaring tradition, had been forced into an uneasy alliance with Spain. Naturally, being the two main contenders for control of shipping lanes, England and Spain were at war. Armed merchantmen were typically funded by private citizens or limited partnerships for the express intent of turning a profit. Letters of Marque were issued to the captains. These were documents issued by the Crown that in effect legitimized piracy, but only toward the vessels of an enemy or its allies. Now, obviously, a state of declared war must exist between two nations before the Letters were issued, which led to a great drawback of the privateering trade: not knowing when the war was over. A voyage of a privateer may last several years, particularly those sailing to the Americas to prey on galleons returning from the New World loaded with treasure. There were several cases of the Fleet Commandant of a small armed merchant fleet sailing from England, attacking Spanish and Portugese shipping, returning to England with his spoils, and then being hung for piracy because the war had ended while he was at sea, and his Letters of Marque had been revoked before they had expired. Which leads to the second great danger of being a privateer: while your government has blessed you with the sacred task of harrying enemy shipping, your still just a pirate to the enemy, not subject to the normal protocols of dealing with captured prizes. The immediate punishment for those found guilty of piracy was hanging. When a legitimate naval vessel lost an engagement, the ship would be officially surrendered (provided it wasn't sunk), the sailors taken prisoner, and a prize crew set on it to sail her to the nearest friendly port for emergency repairs, and then on to her new country for a refit, after which she became a commissioned vessel. The vanquished officers were treated with deference to their rank. A privateer's life expectancy after defeat, however, was about as long as it took to throw a rope over a yardarm. Knowing this, privateers were EXTREMELY careful about who and when they engaged. Capture of a privateer was a long a bloody fight, because the merchantmen knew that they could not surrender, lest they swing in the breeze. If they were lucky enough to be taken to shore after capture, Jesuit inquisitors usually were responsible for the trials, which had but one outcome: pronounced guilty of piracy on the high seas, proclaimed a heretic, and burned at the stake. The armed merchantman was one of the best strategies employed by England during the war with Spain (I may be mistaken, but I don't think Spain Issued Letters of Marque....don't quote me on that though). It used ships and crews that cost the Crown nothing to harry the Spanish all over the world. To protect the larger galleons, more ships of the line had to be pulled from fleet service to be sent to convoy duty, which made life easier on English fleet. Capture of a privateer was an iffy proposition at best, not only because of the ferocity of the privateers, but also because they were typically smaller and very heavily armed. To attack a privateer one on one with anything less than a ship of the line was paramount to suicide. However, the large behemoths necessary to subdue the privateers were too slow to catch them on the open seas. The most effective way the Spanish ever found to deal with armed merchantmen was to hunt them with small packs of corvettes class frigates that were essentially counterparts of the privateers. Perhaps a good research avenue for you would be to locate Letters of Marque issued during the 1600's. Just reading them should provide a wealth of info. I hope this helps somewhat. Oh, BTW, COOL personna! My personna is also 1600's, but Spanish. HMMM....Oh, the possibilities!! In service, Jaime Alejandro del Halcon Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 13:08:40 -0400 From: "James A. Barrow" <redfalcon at thomson.net> Organization: Red Falcon Armouries Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: More Privateering (was Research Help) Mark S. Harris wrote: > Greetings unto Jaime Alejandro del Halcon, > > "James A. Barrow" <redfalcon at thomson.net> wrote: > > The second type is what you personna is geared toward: the armed > > merchantmen, or privateer. > > <snip> > > I fear I must take exception to this statement, although the differance > may be one of semmantics. Are you classing all merchantmen that carried > armament as privateers? I would think this would not be the case. There > were a number of merchantmen that would carry a few to many cannon for > their own defense. If the merchantmen that the privateers were preying > upon were unarmed then there would not have been the need for the > privateers to be as heavily armed as they were. They weren't armed > primarily to fight off the enemy naval vessels for you yourself said > they couldn't really do that, that speed was their main defense. > > Please clarify your statement. Even if you were drawing the line > between a lightly armed merchantman and a heavily armed merchantmen/ > privateer, the original poster may not have been. > > Thanks. > Stefan li Rous Stefan: No, not all merchantmen could be classified as privateers; however, for their own defense, nearly every merchant vessel was armed to some degree, mainly for defense against pirates, although less scrupulous captains were certainly not above taken prizes of opportunity when possible, and therefore engaging in piracy themselves. The term "armed merchantman" is specifically used to refer to a vessel whose master has been granted Letters of Marque, also referred to as a privateer. Just because a merchantman is armed does not make her a "armed merchantman", or "privateer", just like owning a revolver does not make a person a cowboy. As to what the original poster intended to mean, I cannot say. I only assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that because he used the term "armed merchantman" he understood the historical context that the phrase should be taken in. Sorry about the confusion!! Jaime From: Tom Rettie <tom at nospamformeplease.his.com> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: steam bending (was Re: Making Portable SCA Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:30:37 -0700 Robert (Morphis at physics.niu.edu) Wrote: > My understanding is that Henry the VIII's fleet was made using > steam boxes, but I am told that the Viking ships were not, each > plank being hewn to shape. Any thoughts or knowledge out there > about either of these alledged facts? I've done some research on medieval shipbuilding, and I've never found any references to steam bending in period ship construction. Keep in mind that planking tended to be either unseasoned, or at least less so than we are accustomed to, and thus bends more easily than the kiln-dried lumber you find at the lumber yard. It would also be much easier and cheaper to just soak timbers that you thought might need it. Early shipbuilders tended to use timber that naturally approximated the shape they required, such as for ribs and the keel, when they could. Hewing something to shape makes for a weaker piece, as the fibers of the wood are cut rather than being continuous. In lapstrake construction, the hull planks are bent to shape and then pegged (as in Viking construction) or clench-nailed or roved (later European construction) in place. Yes, they used iron nails, though they were expensive. In later frame construction, the skeleton of the ship was built first, and then the hull planks were attached to the skeleton. I commend to you "The Good Ship" published by Johns Hopkins University Press as a good source on period ship construction techniques. The author's name escapes me at the moment. That's the 10 second answer, to the best of my knowledge. Those that know better are welcome to correct any of the above. Findlaech mac Alasdair Subject: ANST - scouting report ... Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 14:50:40 MST From: "j'lynn yeates" <jyeates at bga.com> To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG was killing some time in the bookstore yesterday and noted a couple of items that might be of interest ... * Scientific America: this months issue has a article on the development and engineering of norse longships. noted a number of great detail drawings that would be useful to those interested in the construction and design details that made these ships so unique and deadly. * "A Tabloid Look At History": (i *think* that was the title) a book that examines and reports many important historical incidents from the perspective of the supermarket tabloids ... file under humor 'wolf From: "Lady O'Ceo (Lady of the Myst)" <ilona at peak.org> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Medieval Ships Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 10:14:55 -0700 Organization: Multi-Media Artisans TiernanC wrote: > I need to do some research on what types of ships were used in the early 14th > century, namely by the Irish ans Scottish. Maduinn math! The type of sailing vessel would depend on it's intended use. Around Alba and Eire the shores are very rugged and the seas rough. General requirements would be a stout hull (planked), high freeboard, and comparatively shallow draft. Some possible types to expand your searching: Bark (barque), brig, schooner, galiot, galleon (technically later than your requested period), coaster, merchanter You could also try looking under shipwright, history of sailing, and maritime museum. Hope this helps. -- Rick Schmidt Oak and Iron Forge aka Duncan Alexander Malcolm MacDuibh Kilgour (Alex) From: Christopher Allen Schultz <schultzc at csd.uwm.edu> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Medieval Ships Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:00:09 -0500 Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee <snip> > Bark (barque), brig, schooner, galiot, galleon (technically later than > your requested period), coaster, merchanter <snip> My interest is later (16th century) and I was going to wait until I can get my documentation before replying. But really the Bark, Brig and schooner are much much later, try way out of period like 18th and 19th century. The "cog" was attributed to the Hansa which would be 14th century, but I have not found documentation for it that old and certainly no pictures (artist rarely reproduced ships in realistic detail in period, the people on the ship were more important so the ship becomes a rough sketch). The "hulk" is an earlier version of the "cog". The viking dragon ships were still around in the 14th century, but the norsemen were not going viking as much (shore defences had gotten to good). The galleon is later and most of its earlier varients are limited to the Med. since they are really not seaworthy. Columbus' toy boats were Med. coast runners of three different types (the largest was a carrack (sp?)), but I don't think that any of them are old enough to date back to the 15th century. Coaster and merchanter are descriptive terms not types of ships and were probably used from Greek time on. Christophe Baernklau Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:31:23 -0500 From: "I. Marc Carlson" <LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.edu> Subject: re: Medieval Ships Newsgroups: rec.org.sca <tiernanc at aol.com (TiernanC)> >I need to do some research on what types of ships were used in the early 14th >century, namely by the Irish ans Scottish. I realize ships were available but >you'd be surprised that no one seems to know anything about it. I can't even >find any books about it! This is by no means a complete listing: Friel, Ian. The Good Ship; Ships, Shipbuilding and Technology in England, 1200-1520. London: British Museum Press, 1995. Gardiner Robert and Richard W. Unger. Cogs, Caravels, and Galleons, the Sailing Ship, 1000-1650. Annapolis: Naval Institute Press, 1994. Hutchinson, Gillian. Medieval Ships and Shipping. London: Leicester Leicester University Press, 1994. Marsden, Peter. Ships of the Port of London; Twelfth to Seventeenth Centuries AD. London: English Heritage. Seaver, Kirsten. The Frozen Echo, Greenland and the Exploration of North America, 1000-1500. Stanford: Stanford University Press, 1996. Unger, Richard W. The Ship in the Medieval Economy, 600-1600. London: Croom Helm, 1980. (An extensive bibliography, but since I haven't actually read all them, I'm reluctant to suggest them.) You can also try (as general outlines): Landstrom, Bjorn. The Ship, an illustrated history. NY: Doubleday, 1961. Canby, Courtland. A history of ships and seafaring. 1963. I'm not sure just how much the Irish or the Scots did by sea, other than fishing. As far as I can determine (with the limited resources I have on hand this moment), neither had a truely distinctive shipbuilding or international trade thing. >I'd also like to know about passages, like what the fee would be for passage >between the two countries and was there piracy? (I'm sure there was). Any >info and refernce will be helpful. Well, it could just be that the crennelations on the Cogs were just there to fight off the stiff trade competition :) I'm afraid I have no idea about what passage might have cost, however. The basic ships of the early to mid 14th century in the nothern seas, as opposed to those of the Mediterranean, seem to have been "Coasters" (such as the Kalmer boat) smallish vessels used for fishing or local transportation, a "roundship" (such as those seen in the seals of the Cinque Ports) clearly derived from the old Norse double ended vessels, old Knorrs (a centuries old Norse design used for long range ocean voyages, such as to Iceland and Greenland), Stern ruddered vessels derived from the roundships, and finally the (relatively) huge squared hulled Cogs. The roundships are probably those that are also referred to as "Hulks" Marc/Diarmaid O'Duinn lib_imc at centum.utulsa.edu From: Obsidian <"obsidian" at raex.(NOSPAM)com> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Medieval Ships Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 10:35:59 -0400 Organization: The Obsidian Group TiernanC wrote: > I need to do some research on what types of ships were used in the early 14th > century, namely by the Irish ans Scottish. <snip> > I'd also like to know about passages, like what the fee would be for passage > between the two countries and was there piracy? (I'm sure there was). Typical 14th century vessels were cogs. The cog design was developed out of Scandinavian knarrs (not Viking longships, those were much narrower). Cogs were anywhere from 25 to 75 feet long, and wide-beamed, with blunt, stubby prows. They were usually single-masted, though later period vessels start to add more. Warships of the era were essentialy the same thing, with "castles" fitted out fore and aft, for archers or catapults. I'm not real familiar with the exchange rates, so I'm afraid to say much, lest I steer you wrong. Obviously a pilgrim in a large party going from Dover to Calais would be paying a lot less than a noble travelling from Dover to, say, Italy. Standard monies of the era all over Europe were descendents of the denarius; silver coins noticeably smaller and thinner than modern dimes. In the British Isles, this was the penny, and its purchasing power was very very roughly about $1.00 modern American. So I wouldnt be surprised if fares started at half a pound or more (ie. $100.00 +) Piracy? Boy was there ever. In the British Isles a constant threat were North African slavers, and French pirates. So prevalent was this danger that any vessel spotted at sea was automatically assumed to be hostile; and it is one of the factors accounting for the fact that Mediaeval seamen hugged coastlines at all times (the other being that there was no reasonable way of determining longitude back then). Nigel FitzMaurice, Forester From: gtv_13 at my-dejanews.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Medieval Ships Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 23:28:56 GMT "Thomas Bravard" <thumb at direct.ca> wrote: > There was something called a COG tended to be used by the > merchant countries. St Brendan sailed a leather boat that is > a wooden frame with leather stretched over it. I know that > a replica was sailed across the Atlantic. > > Piracy.....Oh yeah the Irish were famous for it. Into the Elizabethan era. > passage was what you could afford. > > Thomas St. Brendan was supposed to have lived around the 6th Century. His vessel was called a curragh (or canoe). I read the book about the replica ("The Brendan Voyages) and Nat'l Geographic published an article by the same author with photos. (The curragh was on the cover; sorry, I don't remember what issue.) BTW, a comment was made that, besides modern survival rations provided by a commercial sponsor, they took along Period foodstuffs (cheese, sausages, etc.). The modern stuff didn't hold up too well against the elements, but the Period food, other than for occasional green fuzz (which they scraped off) did remarkably well. Think about it! Jordi d'Andraitx From: ldcharls at swbell.net Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Medieval Ships Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 17:43:25 +0000 TiernanC wrote: > I need to do some research on what types of ships were used in the early 14th > century, namely by the Irish ans Scottish. I realize ships were available but > you'd be surprised that no one seems to know anything about it. I can't even > find any books about it! > According to the History Channel documetary "The Great Ships" the Viking longships (knarr and drakaar) began to be replaced around the 12th or 13th century by the 'cog', a sailing ship with higher sides than the Viking ships as well as 'castles' fore and aft for defense against boarders. Lord Charles MacKinnon Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 8:48:17 -0500 From: "I. Marc Carlson" <LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.edu> Subject: re: Medieval Ships Newsgroups: rec.org.sca <Larry Johnson <ljohnsn1 at idt.net>> >In 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue. A little rhyme that was taught to >grade school students before outcome based education and multiculturalism were >introduced into the curriculum. A little note aside, the three ships of >Columbus were pretty old when the Queen of Portugal gave them to him. Another >ship to look up is called the Mary Rose,