p-travl-guides-msg – 8/18/17 Period travel guides. Pilgrimage guides. NOTE: See also the files: travel-msg, p-tourism-art, travel-foods-msg, ships-msg, p-backpacks-msg, horses-msg, med-ships-art, carts-msg, pilgrimages-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Subject: ANST - RE: period travel guides Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 08:42:51 -0500 From: "C. L. Ward" To: Jovian asked: >I assume that people wrote "travel guides" >during the Middle Ages and Renaissance. Have >any survived? Where can they be found? What >do they cover? Medieval "travel guides" aren't generally what you'd find today if you go to the "Travel" section of a bookstore. The accounts are much less factual in many cases, and as far as I've seen never are the kind of document that lists "what sights to see". There are a number of more-or-less factual travellers' accounts, and then you also get into medieval geography, which is often largely fictional or based on hearsay. And then there are the "fantastic travels" which I think must descend from the common desire to astound and amaze those folks back home. At the edges of the world people always envisioned strange and often dangerous creatures. For ancient peoples the earth's farthest perimeter was a realm radically different from what they perceived as central and human. The alien qualities of these "edges of the earth" became the basis of a literary tradition that endured throughout antiquity and into the Renaissance, despite the growing challenges of emerging scientific perspectives. This phenomenon is so widespread that a number of books have been written on the subject. In fact, the same phenomenon continues today, providing us the many and varied aliens of science fiction and speculative literature. Some good ones to look at include: VIKING TRAVELS TO BYZANTIUM --------------------------- * Palsson, Hermann and Paul Edwards. Vikings in Russia: Yngvar's Saga and Eymund's Saga. Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press. 1989. Out-of-print, to have Amazon.com do a book search for it go to: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0852246234/thevikinganswerl ARABIC SOURCES DESCRIBING THE VIKING WORLD ------------------------------------------ * M. Reinaud, trans. Geography of Abu al-Fida'. Paris. 1848. Describes the Norse ca. early 14th century under the heading "Northern Regions of the World" * Allen, W. E. D., trans. The Poet and the Spae-Wife: An Attempt to Reconstruct Al-Ghazal's Embassy to the Vikings. Dublin: Allen Figgis & Co. 1960. [A translation of the Arabic text describing al-Ghazal's visit to Turgeis, ruler of the Vikings in Ireland ca. 845. This account dates to the early 1200's.] * Al-Mas'udi. Meadows of Gold. trans. A. Sprenger. London. 1941. [Describes the Rus market of Bulghur prior to 947.] * Al-Mas'udi. The Meadows of Gold: The Abbasids. Paul Lunde and Caroline Stone, trans and eds. Kegan Paul International. 1989. To order from Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0710302460/thevikinganswerl * Ibn Battuta. The Travels of Ibn Battuta. trans. H.A.R. Gibb. Hakluyt Society 2. Cambridge. 1962. To order from Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/812150614X/thevikinganswerl * S. Janicsek. "Ibn Battuta's Journey to Bulghar." Journal Royal Asiatic Society. 1929. pp. 792-800. * Smyser, H. M., trans. "Ibn-Fadlan's Account of the Rus with Some Commentary and Some Allusions to Beowulf." Franciplegius: Medieval and Linguistic Studies in Honor of Francis Peabody Magoun Jr. eds. Jess B. Bessinger and Robert P. Creed. New York: University Press. 1965. pp. 92-119. [A translation of the Arabic text describing ibn-Fadlan's journey among the Rus or Russian Vikings ca. 921. This account dates to the early 1200's.] See also the text, which I have on my webpage at: http://www.vikinganswerlady.org/ibn_fdln.htm FANTASTIC TRAVEL LITERATURE --------------------------- Babcock, William Henry. Legendary Islands of the Atlantic: A Study in Medieval Geography. New York: American Geographical Society. 1922. Out-of-print, to have Amazon look for it: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0836969634/thevikinganswerl Babcock, William Henry. "The So-Called Mythical Islands of the Atlantic in Medieval Maps", Scottish Geographical Magazine 31/32 (1916). Flint, Valerie I. J. The Imaginative Landscape of Christopher Columbus. Princeton University Press. 1992. To buy from Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0691056811/thevikinganswerl Fuson, Robert H. Legendary Islands of the Ocean Sea. Pineapple Press. 1998. To buy from Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1561640786/thevikinganswerl Harvey, P. D. A. Mappa Mundi: The Hereford World Map. British Library Studies in Medieval Culture. University of Toronto Press. 1996. To buy from Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0802009859/thevikinganswerl [This map is a great example of medieval mythical geography and how it intermixes with the knowledge of the real world.] Jakobsen, Alfred. "Geographical Literature." in: Medieval Scandinavia: An Encyclopedia. Phillip Pulsiano et al., eds. Garland Reference Library of the Humanities 934. New York & London: Garland. 1993. pp. 224-225. Out-of-print, to have Amazon search for it: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0824047877/thevikinganswerl Romm, James S. The Edges of the Earth in Ancient Thought. Princeton: Princeton University Press. 1992. To buy from Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0691069336/thevikinganswerl Simek, Rudolph. "Elusive Elysia or Which Way to GlÊsisvellir." Sagnaskemmtun: Studies in Honor of Hermann P·lsson on his 65th Birthday. Rudolph Simek et al., eds. Vienna, Cologne & Graz: Bˆhlau. 1986. pp. 247-275. Out-of-print, to have Amazon look for it: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/3205066006/thevikinganswerl Tomasch, Sylvia and Sealy Gilles, eds. Text and Territory: Geographical Imagination in the European Middle Ages. The Middle Ages Series. University of Pennsylvania Press. 1997. To buy from Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812216350/thevikinganswerl Westrem, Scott D., ed. Discovering New Worlds: Essays on Medieval Exploration and Imagination. Garland Reference Library of the Humanities 1436. New York: Garland Publishing. 1991. Out-of-print, to have Amazon look for it: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0815301022/thevikinganswerl ::GUNNORA:: Subject: Re: ANST - RE: period travel guides Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 14:34:12 From: "Eric Jackson" To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org Gerald of Wales wrote a excelent description of his travels through Wales recruiting for one of the crusades. He also wrote about his travels in ireland here are a few links. You can find his books on the web if you are interested in them Ireland http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/geraldwales1.html Wales http://www.llangynfelyn.dabsol.co.uk/dogfennau/disgrifiadau_gerallt.html Owen ap Aeddan....... Subject: ANST - Period Travel Guides Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 19:40:42 -0400 From: fitzmorgan at cs.com To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org > I assume that people wrote "travel guides" during the Middle Ages and > Renaissance. Have any survived? Where can they be found? What do they > cover? > > Jovian Look for "The Pilgrims Guide To Santiago De Compostela" Written in , I think, the 12th Century. and translated by William Melczer. Italica Press, INC. ISBN 0-934977-25-9 for $17.50 if it's still in print. This is a travel guide for pilgrims telling of dangers to avoid and sites to see on your pilgrimage. It tells which rivers you can safely drink from and which are unsafe. It says some rude things about the Basque. And tells short stories about the many Saints who's shrines you will see on the way. It's well worth reading. Robert Fitzmorgan Barony of Northkeep Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 20:37:10 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: [Sca-cooks] Travel accounts to Turkey I would mention that the English published a number of these travel Accounts in the 17th century. You might already find them translated. Johnnae Those with access to EEBO might look for such titles as follow: A description of the grand signour's seraglio or Turkish emperours court [edited] by John Greaves. Author: Bon, Ottaviano, 1552-1623. Publication Info: London : Printed for Jo. Ridley, 1653. Headings to look for: [Harem] [Turkey -- Court and courtiers] [Istanbul (Turkey) -- Description] ---------- The four epistles of A.G. Busbequius concerning his embassy into Turkey being remarks upon the religion, customs, riches, strength and government of that people : as also a description of their chief cities, and places of trade and commerce : to which is added, his advice how to manage war against the Turks. Author: Busbecq, Ogier Ghislain de, 1522-1592. Publication Info: London : Printed for J. Taylor ... and J. Wyat ..., 1694. The author died a century before publication in this case. ----------- The six voyages of John Baptista Tavernier, Baron of Aubonne through Turky, into Persia and the East-Indies, for the space of forty years giving an account of the present state of those countries, viz. of the religion, government, customs, and commerce of every country, and the figures, weight, and value of the money currant all over Asia : to which is added A new description of the Seraglio Tavernier, Jean-Baptiste, 1605-1689., Phillips, John, 1631-1706., Cox, Daniel, London: Printed by William Godbid for Robert Littlebury ... and Moses Pitt ...1677. Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 23:10:20 -0400 From: Sam Wallace To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: [Sca-cooks] 15th Century Travelogues I found this set of travelogues while digging through Google Books. They are of a pair of Italians who ventured to Persia, Poland, Russia and other regions. There is some interesting mention of cuisine and culinary customs, but not as many details as might be desired. It is worth digging around in them as these areas did not produce many culinary works until well after 1600. Travels to Tana and Persia http://books.google.com/books?id=RxgRAQAAIAAJ Guillaume Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 06:53:51 -0400 From: "Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: [Sca-cooks] The Adventures of Ibn Battula I'm rereading "The Adventures of Ibn Battula" by Ross E. Dunn and came across a description of a meal that might prove interesting. Ibn Battula was a Muslim traveler in the 14th century who is often referred to as "the Muslim Marco Polo". Dunn uses an account of his travels to recreate his itinerary. The meal, served in Mogadishu, is describes as follows: ... the party addressed themselves to a meal of local fare, compliments of the palace: a stew of chicken, meat, fish, and vegetables poured over rice cooked in ghee: unripe bananas in fresh milk: and a dish comprising of sour milk, green ginger, mangoes, and pickled lemons and chilies. The citizens of Mogadishu, Ibn Battula observed, did justice to such meals as these: "A single citizen... eats as much as a whole company of us would eat, as a matter of habit, and they are corpulent and fat in the extreme." I am puzzled at the inclusion of chilies in this description as I understand them to have been introduced from the new world. Perhaps the translation from the original text is in error? Dan Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2010 08:52:32 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] The Adventures of Ibn Battula The adventures of Ibn Battuta, a Muslim traveler of the fourteenth century by Ross E. Dunn. Google books has it up. The quote is on page 124. The version The travels of Ibn Battuta: A.D. 1325 1354 by Ibn Batuta, B. R. Sanguinetti doesn't contain the word "chilies." The question would be--- do other versions use the word or are certain versions using a modern word or term for Ibn Battuta's 14th century peppers? (Numerous texts point out that the region now uses a very hot chile pepper extensively. Was the modern pepper known as the African devil chile thought to be the traditional pepper of centuries past?) Running a search on Ibn Battuta and the word chilies through Google Books leads to Ibn Battuta in Black Africa By Ibn Batuta, Said Hamdun, No?l Quinton King. A footnote in that book on page 78 reads "The word translated 'chilies' is fulfil, compare Kiswahili pilipili." Searching on pilipili pilipili, pili-pili, piripiri n. from pilipili "pepper": red pepper, capsicum, bird's-eye chili; red-pepper sauce [< Swahili < Persian] I suspect that what Ibn Battula was served was a variety of black pepper or even long pepper. Was it served fresh? Some of the texts call it chopped. One would think that it should have been ground. http://www.fiery-foods.com/pepper-profiles/152-baccatum-pubescens-and-frutescens-species/107-pepper-profile-african-birdseye profiles the African Birdseye pepper (another new world in origin capsicum pepper) and notes "pili-pili simply means "pepper-pepper" and is a generic term for any African chile." I think it's safe to say he was served a hot pepper of old world origin. http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200801/ where.the.pepper.grows.htm talks about Where the pepper grows in relation to its use in Arab history. Johnnae Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 17:37:11 -0400 From: "Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps" To: "cooks within the SCA" Subject: [Sca-cooks] Ibn Battula"s Meals In Dunn's book, page 166, he translates the account of a meal at Azak (Tana, now Azov (at the mouth of the Don for those interested in geography) as follows: "millet gruel, macaroni, boiled meat of horse and sheep, and fermented mare's milk, called qumizz." The reference to macaroni puzzles. It references some sort of pasta of that I'm reasonably sure. I'm suspecting that he is likely talking about broad flat noodles. Would they be made from wheat? Dan Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 14:51:42 -0700 From: David Friedman To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] The Adventures of Ibn Battula <<< I'm rereading "The Adventures of Ibn Battula" by Ross E. Dunn and came across a description of a meal that might prove interesting. Ibn Battula was a Muslim traveler in the 14th century who is often referred to as "the Muslim Marco Polo". Dunn uses an account of his travels to recreate his itinerary. The meal, served in Mogadishu, is describes as follows: ... the party addressed themselves to a meal of local fare, compliments of the palace: a stew of chicken, meat, fish, and vegetables poured over rice cooked in ghee: unripe bananas in fresh milk: and a dish comprising of sour milk, green ginger, mangoes, and pickled lemons and chilies. The citizens of Mogadishu, Ibn Battula observed, did justice to such meals as these: "A singe citizen... eats as much as a whole company of us would eat, as a matter of habit, and they are corpulent and fat in the extreme." I am puzzled at the inclusion of chilies in this description as I understand them to have been introduced from the new world. Perhaps the translation from the original text is in error? Dan >>> The relevant passage is on page 376 of the Gibb translation of The Travels. It isn't entirely clear if Ibn Battuta is describing the food he was offered, or starting with that and then commenting on what the local people eat. "and in another dish they put curdled milk, on which they place [pieces of] pickled lemon, bunches of pickled pepper steeped in vinegar and salted, green ginger, and mangoes. " That's clearly the passage he is referring to, and it sounds as though Dunn has turned peppers into chilis. I haven't read his book, but Ibn Battuta's own account of his travels, in the Gibb translation, is a lot of fun. I like to describe Marco Polo as a 13th c. Italian imitator of the 14th c. North African world traveler Ibn Battuta. -- David/Cariadoc www.daviddfriedman.com Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2010 22:19:55 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Ibn Battula"s Meals <<< The reference to macaroni puzzles. It references some sort of pasta of that I'm reasonably sure. I'm suspecting that he is likely talking about broad flat noodles. Would they be made from wheat? Dan >>> Triticun durum (AKA T. turgidum), the wheat most commonly used in making pasta, has been grown in North Africa since at least Roman times. It would have been a trade good in the Moslem world of the 14th Century, so there is a good possibility that the pasta mentioned was made from T. durum. Since durum was being grown in Dhufar (west coast of the Arabian Peninsula), the Horn of Africa would have had easy access to it. Bear Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 02:33:59 -0400 From: "Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Ibn Battula"s Meals Was written: <<< Since durum was being grown in Dhufar (west coast of the Arabian Peninsula), the Horn of Africa would have had easy access to it. >>> My reply: Yes but we are talking about a meal served in Azov a city up the River Don. Azov (Russian: ?????, pronounced [a'zof]) is a town in Rostov Oblast, Russia, situated on the Don River just sixteen kilometers from the Sea of Azov. The River Don flows into the Sea of Azov from the north east. The Sea of Azov connects to the Black Sea on its north side. I suspect that "macaroni" is used by Dunn generically for pasta. All that being said the grain used in making the pasta could have been grown locally? We know that millet was also served at the meal. The "macaroni" referenced could have been made from wheat, buckwheat or millet. Macaroni as we know it is in the form of tubular noodles. Did tubular noodles exist in Azov at the time? Daniel Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2010 11:24:54 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] The Adventures of Ibn Battuta Came across this 3 part article on Ibn Battuta that people might enjoy. Again from Saudi Aramco World The Longest Hajj: The Journeys of Ibn Battuta: Editor's Note The Longest Hajj: The Journeys of Ibn Battuta, Part 1: From Pilgrim to Traveler?Tangier to Makkah The Longest Hajj: The Journeys of Ibn Battuta, Part 2: From Riches to Rags?Makkah to India The Longest Hajj: The Journeys of Ibn Battuta, Part 3: From Traveler to Memoirist?China, Mali and Home http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200004/the.longest.hajj.the.journeys.of.ibn.battuta-editor.s.note.htm will get one started. Johnna <<< http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200801/where.the.pepper.grows.htm talks about Where the pepper grows in relation to its use in Arab history. Johnnae >>> Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 11:17:02 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Ibn Battula"s Meals I shouldn't try to follow a thread when I'm tired. The area you are describing is in the grain growing region of Southeast Europe. While they might or might not have had durum, they would have had wheat and I would generally assume that any pasta would be made from some variety of wheat, except possibly in times of famine. Neither buckwheat nor millet have gluten and any pasta made from them would likely be extremely friable. The term macaroni derives from the Italian "maccaroni" meaning "dumpling." In the original usage, the word can be used to refer to almost any form of pasta. IIRC, the first reference to tubular pasta shows up in early 15th Century Italy (check for references before taking that as gospel), but I don't remember that usage being outside of Italy. In my view, tubular pasta is a remote possibility. It is much more likely that the pasta would be flat noodles or dumplings. Millet, BTW, makes a very decent polenta, either as a soft mush or a drier loaf. I suspect that this was probably served as mush. Bear <<< Yes but we are talking about a meal served in Azov a city up the River Don. Azov (Russian: ?????, pronounced [a'zof]) is a town in Rostov Oblast, Russia, situated on the Don River just sixteen kilometers from the Sea of Azov. The River Don flows into the Sea of Azov from the north east. The Sea of Azov connects to the Black Sea on its north side. I suspect that "macaroni" is used by Dunn generically for pasta. All that being said the grain used in making the pasta could have been grown locally? We know that millet was also served at the meal. The "macaroni" referenced could have been made from wheat, buckwheat or millet? Macaroni as we know it is in the form of tubular noodles. Did tubular noodles exist in Azov at the time? Daniel >>> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2010 08:33:23 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Ibn Battula"s Meals And of course it may just be a mistranslation. Perhaps instead of macaroni, the translator should have used the term noodles. Would we have noticed if the phrase had been "millet gruel, noodles, boiled meat of horse and sheep, and fermented mare's milk, called qumizz"? Johnnae On Oct 5, 2010, at 7:26 AM, Claire Clarke wrote: <<< Maccaroni in fifteenth century Italian sources refers to at least two shapes - something that resembles modern fettucine and something that resembles modern penne. There may be more that I haven't seen. But my understanding is that macaroni was the name used for what we would call spaghetti until the 19th century. Angharad >>> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 23:36:48 -0500 From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: [Sca-cooks] Glimpses of Turkish food (1432-1433) The Travels of Bertrandon de la Brocqui?re [...] to Palestine, and His Return from Jerusalem Overland to France During the Years 1432 and 1433 https://books.google.com/books?id=A9YWAAAAQAAJ&vq=We%20halted%20among%20the m%3A&dq=Bertrandon&pg=PA164#v=onepage&q&f=false "We halted among them: they placed before us one of the table-cloths before mentioned, in which there remained fragments of bread, cheese and grapes. They then.brought us a dozen of thin cakes of bread, with a large jug of curdled milk, called by them Yogort. The cakes are a foot broad, round, and thinner than wafers: they fold them up as grocers do their papers for spices, and eat them filled with the curdled milk.... once more lodged with the Turcomans, who again served us with milk. It was here I saw women make those thin cakes I spoke of. This is their manner of making them: they have a small round table, very smooth, on which they throw some flour, and mix it with water to a paste, softer than that for bread. This paste they divide into round pieces, which they flatten as much as possible with a wooden roller, of a smaller diameter than an egg, until they make them as thin as 1 have mentioned. During this operation, they have a convex plate of iron placed on a tripod, and heated by a gentle fire underneath, on which they spread the cake, and instantly turn it, so that they make two of their cakes sooner than a waferman can make one wafer." "[The mufti (Amarath II)] loves liquor, and those who drink hard: as for himself, he can easily quaff off from ten to twelve gondils of wine, which amount to six or seven quarts*. When he has drunk much, he becomes generous, and distributes his great gifts: his attendants, therefore, are very happy when they hear him call for wine. Last year, a Moor took it into his head to preach to him on this subject, admonishing him that wine was forbidden by the prophet, and that those who drank it were not good Saracens. The only answer the prince gave was to order him to prison" "The prince waited to reseat himself, until the ambassador had sitten down: then the different officers on duty who were in the apartment sat down on the floor,?and the person who had introduced the ambassador went to seek for us his attendants, and placed us near the Bosnians. In the mean time, a silken napkin was attached to the prince, and a round piece of thin red leather was placed before him, for their usage is to eat only from table-coverings of leather, then some dressed meat was brought to him in two gilded dishes. When he was served, his officers went and took the tin dishes I have spoken of, and distributed them to the persons in the hall, one dish among four. There was in each a piece of mutton, and some clear rice, but neither bread nor any thing to drink. I saw, however, in a corner of the court a high buffet with shelves, which had some little plate on them, and at the foot was a large silver vase, in the shape of a drinking cup, which I perceived many to drink out of, but whether water or wine I know not. With regard to the meat on the dishes, some tasted of it, others not; but before all Were served, it was necessary to take away, for the prince had not been inclined to eat." "I descended into this plain to dinner, for I had brought with me chickens and wine. My guides conducted me to the house of a man, who, when he saw my wine, took me for a person of consequence, and received me well. He brought me a porringer of milk, another of honey, and a branch loaded with dates." "They dress sheeps feet here with a cleanliness I have no where seen. I regaled myself with them the more eagerly, as I had not eaten any dressed meat since I had left Couhongue. They cook also a nice dish with green walnuts. Their manner is to peel them, cut them into two, and put them on a string: then they are besprinkled with boiled wine, which attaches itself to them, and forms a jelly like paste all around them. It is a very agreeable food, especially when a person is hungry. We were obliged to lay in a stock of bread and cheese for two days, as I was disgusted with raw meat." Jim Chevallier Edited by Mark S. Harris p-travl-guides-msg 2 of 12