carts-msg - 7/9/17

Carts, wagons and other wheeled vehicles.

NOTE: See also the files: p-backpacks-msg, sedan-chairs-msg, travel-msg, med-ships-art, ships-bib, ships-msg, boat-building-msg, pilgrimages-msg.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rickshaws and golf carts
Date: 24 Nov 1993 17:17:45 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Joe Pepersack <ee331aa at mage.eece.unm.edu> wrote:
>>] horses... :)
>
>Were human powered wheeled vehicles used in medieval Europe?

In _Civilisation_ Sir Kenneth Clarke mentions "the cult of the carts"
during the 12th-century renaissance, when noble lords and ladies were
so eager to help in building the great cathedrals that they would
unhitch the carts that were bearing the stones to the building sites
and pull them themselves.

Trouble is, I can't remember whether these were horse- or human-drawn
carts, and my copy of _Civilisation_ is still packed.

I seem to recall reading about small carts with a pair of poles and
a leather strap between them so that a man could rest his chest against
it and pull the cart.  But I can't remember any references.

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin		Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West				UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable		djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu


From: JLEASE at nara.GOV (Jennifer Lease)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: gypsy carts
Date: 7 Nov 1994 09:18:17 -0500

Greetings to the bridge! 
 
Gwenfrei ferch Cadfael of Caernarfon wrote: 
 
>wanting to know about wooden enclosed cart/carriage with a living and 
>sleeping space as used by gypsies 
 
According to the limited research I have done and the extensive research 
my tribe leader has done, wooden enclosed carts did not come into use 
until well into the 17th or 18th centuries. However, they did use carts to 
carry all their possessions.  Only they were more akin to conestoga 
wagons, ie. flat bed wagons with tents on them.  I will try to get a hold 
of my tribe leader and see if she can come up with some documentation for 
you. 
 
As for the term gypsy, it too is either late period or OOP totally.  
Again, based on my limited research, the term comes from the period term 
of "Little Egyptian".  When the gypsies enterd Western Europe from the 
baltic and eastern european countries, with their outlandish dress, 
customs and language, W.E. had no idea who or what hit them.  The gypsies 
themselves claimed to be from somewhere called Little Egypt.  There are 
documented cases of tribes of Little Egyptians claiming sanctuary because 
they were serving penance as punishment for religious "crimes" in their 
homeland.  Eventually, the governments of the time began legislating 
against the tribes.  When they entered the British Isles in the 1400's 
laws against vagrancy etc. were passed to keep them out of towns.  The 
term "Little Egyptian" gradually changed to the term gypsy.  The other 
period term I ran across was "Zeiguner" or something like that, (my german 
is lousy!:-) ) Most modern gypsies perfer the term "Rhom" or "Rhomany" and 
in Scotland they are referred to "the Traveling People". 
 
I will do my best to locate the citation of the book(s) that I read for 
this information.  It is by no means complete and as the study of gypsies 
is young, there are a lot of differing viewpoints and information.  I hope 
this helps! 
 
Anna MacKenzie 
Barony of the Brights Hills 
K. of Atlantia 
 
...sometime member of the Gypsy Tribe of the Winged Wolf... 
 

From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Coaches and Wagons (was What is Period (Pt 2))
Date: 7 Dec 1994 11:16:57 -0600

<From: zkessin at ppp3253.wing.net (Zach)>
>>>"Why do we call cars dragons? I tend to try to call mine a coach or 
>>>a wagon. It tends to be slightly better" (Zach/Guiliam)

Cariadoc/David
>>Much better....
>>...I think of coaches as about 18th century and wagons as more
>>appropriate to our period, but I have not actually checked how early
>>the word "coach" is used or for what.
>The OED might have something usefull but I dont own a copy. I just
>figured that it would not be too unreasonable for someone from c1490
>would use a coach when not just riding on a horse.

If I may interject...

Gleaned from a handy copy of the OED (2d ed):

Carriage
     1.a. Carrying or bearing from one place to another;
          conveyance. 1388 Wyclif...
     2.   esp. Conveyance of merchandise; commercial transport;
          traffic of transport; carrying trade. 1523 Fitzherb....
     3.   An impost on the transport of goods through a country or
          territory; a customs duty, toll, or carrier's licence.
          Obs. 1200...
     4.   An obsolete service of carrying, or a payment in lieu of
          the same, due by a tenant to his landlord or feudal
          superior, or imposed by authority. 1386...
     13.  Manner of carrying one's body; bodily deportment,
          bearing, mien. 1596 Shakes...
     14.  Manner of conducting oneself socially; demeanour;
          deportment, behaviour. (Referring to manners.) arch. 1590
          Shakes...
     18.  a. Something carried; a burden, a load. Obs. 1458 MS....
          b. A load, as a quantity definite or indefinite.
          1596/7... 
     19.  Baggage. (Originally collectively; later often in plural)
          Obs.
          a. The portable equipment of an army, L. impedimenta; =
          baggage 2. Sometimes including the whole baggage-train.
          1375...
          b. Movable or portable property; baggage or luggage
          carried with one on a journey, etc. 1398 ...
     22.  Means of conveyance. Obs. 1450 ...
     23.  A vehicle or means of conveyance of any kind. Obs. except
          in wheel carriage; 15--?...
     24.  A wheeled vehicle generally. Obs. or arch. 1560...
     27.  The wheeled support on which a piece of ordnance is
          mounted; a gun-carriage. 1560...

Cart
     1.   A carriage of any kind; a chariot, car. 800 ...
     2.   a. specifically. A strong vehicle with two wheels, and
          without springs, used in farming operations, and for
          carrying heavy goods of various kinds. (Distinguished
          from a wagon, which has four wheels.) 1297...
          b. With various ns. indicating its use, as baggage-,
          dung-, dust-, harvest-, hay-, luggage-cart, etc., or the
          animal that draws it, as donkey-cart. 1642 ...

Coach
     [Essentially the term is borrowed from the Hungarian]
     1.   a. A large kind of carriage: in 16th and 17th centuries,
          usually a state carriage of royalty or people of quality
          (still occasionally used, as e.g. the Lord Mayor's
          coach); now, usually, a large close carriage with four
          wheels, with seats inside, and several outside, used for
          public conveyance of passengers (see stage-coach). Hence
          to take coach (obs.).
          It does not appear certain what was the precise new
          feature that distinguished the Hungarian kocsi, and led
          to its adoption throughout Europe. A German picture of
          "ein ungerische gutsche," after 1550, shows it still
          without covering, and not suspended on springs.
          (Hildebrand in Grimm.)  1556 ....

Conveyance
     1.   Convoying, escorting, or conducting; conduct. Obs.
          1503/4...
     2.   The action of carrying or transporting; the carriage of
          persons or goods from one place to another. (Formerly
          used more widely.) 1520...
     3.   Carrying away, removal, riddance. Obs. 1567...
     4.   Furtive or light-fingered carrying off; stealing.
          (Sometimes associated with sleight of hand or jugglery)
          1526...
     11.  Manner of managing or conducting; skilful management,
          skill; generalship. Obs. 1526...
          b. esp. Cunning management or contrivance; underhand
          dealing, jugglery, sleight of hand. Obs. 1531...
     13.  A means of transport from place to place, a carriage, a
          vehicle: now, esp. applied to anything used to convey
          persons as passengers, e.g. any kind of private or public
          vehicle, a railway carriage, a boat, ship, etc. Formerly
          applicable also to a beast of burden: cf. carriage.
          1598...

Van  
     1.   a. A covered vehicle chiefly employed for the conveyance
          of goods, usually resembling a large wooden box with
          arched roof and opening from behind, but varying in size
          (and to some extent in form) according to the use
          intended. Now usu., a motor vehicle with a covered rear
          compartment, often of shorter wheelbase than a lorry,
          used esp. for deliveries or service calls.  1829...
     2.   The foremost portion of, or the foremost position in, a
          company or train of persons moving, or prepared to move,
          forwards or onwards. 1610...

Wagon
     In Du. (as in Ger.) wagen has always been the most general
     term for a wheeled vehicle; in the 16th c. it was adopted into
     Eng. in this wide sense as well as in the specific military
     application learned in the continental wars.
     1.   a. A strong four-wheeled vehicle designed for the
          transport of heavy goods. In military use chiefly with
          qualifying word, as ambulance, ammunition, bread, forge
          wagon etc., for which see those words. 1523...

Any other suggestions?

A simple scholar,

	Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
	University of Northkeep
	Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
	(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)


From: LIB_IMC at vax1.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Dragons and Wagons
Date: 9 Jan 1995 09:38:16 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway

A bit of trivia.

Having been browsing through a small variety of sources this weekend,
most particularly something that resembles a Baedekker's guide to 1492,
who's title unfortunately escapes me.

The "wagon" used for much of the Middle Ages appears to have been a solid
unit from the front of the animal pulling, to the rear of the "box".  None
of the wheels were able to turn, forcing the thing to turn AS a unit.  The
"driver" was a person walking alongside with what looks (in the drawings)
like a cat'o'nine tails, but I'm not convinced is.  The rest of the wagon 
bore a passing visual similarity to the covered wagon of the American Old
West.

The Front turning wheels appeared in about 1470, or so.  And the raised box
for a seated driver did not appear until the Coach came in from Hungary.

The suspension system was, I believe, even later.

A temporarily displaced scholar,

Diarmuit Ui Dhunn
University of Northkeep, Northkeepshire
(I. Marc Carlson
 IMC at VAX2.UTULSA.EDU
 LIB_IMC at VAX1.UTULSA.EDU)


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Dragons and Wagons
Date: 12 Jan 1995 18:11:28 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

[Hal posting from Dorothy's account...]
In article <950109093850.29823e04 at vax1.utulsa.edu>,
I. Marc Carlson <LIB_IMC at vax1.utulsa.edu> wrote:
>Having been browsing through a small variety of sources this weekend,
>most particularly something that resembles a Baedekker's guide to 1492,
>who's title unfortunately escapes me.
>
>The "wagon" used for much of the Middle Ages appears to have been a solid
>unit from the front of the animal pulling, to the rear of the "box".  None
>of the wheels were able to turn, forcing the thing to turn AS a unit...

Interestings.....  Especially since the photographs of the Oseberg
Cart (_The Viking_, pub. Tre Trycare, 1966, p. 236) rather
clearly show pivotable front wheels.  Rather limited rotational
angle, given the design, but some ability.  The Oseberg ship is
thought to date from circa 800.

	--Hal Ravn
	 (Hal Heydt)


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Dragons and Wagons
Date: 13 Jan 1995 18:17:04 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

[Hal posting from Dorothy's account...]
In article <9501130843.AA17390 at volsung.hfsi.com>,
Michael Houghton <herveus at volsung.hfsi.COM> wrote:
>In a recent artical, Hal Ravn observed:
>> Interestings.....  Especially since the photographs of the Oseberg
>> Cart (_The Viking_, pub. Tre Trycare, 1966, p. 236) rather
>> clearly show pivotable front wheels.  Rather limited rotational
>> angle, given the design, but some ability.  The Oseberg ship is
>> thought to date from circa 800.
>> 
>I disagree. Unless we are talking about different carts, the one I
>saw at the Viking Ship Museum had rigid wheels; no steering capability
>whatsoever. I'll check my photograph of the cart to verify my memory.

In the citation there are two pictures of the cart.  A large shot
from the front primarily showing the carving on the end of the
removable 'bed' of the cart and a smaller shot from the side.

In the front-on shot, you can see a cylindrical pin going from
the front 'axle' to the frame.  The pin tapers near the top.  The
framing supporting the front wheels does not *appear* to have a
solid connection to the frame above it, but looks to be a sliding
support.  so long as the wheels aren't turned any farther than
will permit contact with these two pieces to remain in contact,
the structure should remain stable.  Given the size of the wheels
and the overall structure of the cart, this shouldn't be a
problem.

The general case is, I think, one of design.  Until the use of
small front wheels and undercut beds came in, four-wheeled carts
couldn't have very steep steering angles--large wheels can't be
run in under full beds.  

While not what I'd consider at all definitive, the sketch in the
same work on page 238 seems to show the from wheels at a slight
angle with respect to the back wheels and (top of page) *clearly*
show the back axle solidly attached to the frame of the cart.

	--Hal Ravn
	 (Hal Heydt)


From: bjm10 at cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Elephants on the Field
Date: 3 Oct 1995 18:48:08 GMT
Organization: Cornell University

In article <9509281818.aa13417 at MINTAKA.LCS.MIT.EDU>, wballard at  says...
>
>   However if you would like to use a more western medieval
>or renaissance contraption with somewhat similar characteristics,
>look to Scottish or Hussite war wagons. The scottish was usually
>more usefull in manuever combat than the Hussites, which tended
>to be used in a wagon circle fortress.

It should also be noted that the Hussite mobile fortresses were intended 
for use with guns, up to small artillery pieces (1-3 pounders), mounted 
in the wagons--they were HEAVY.  The standard Hussite formation was to 
pull the wagons into a "U", not a circle.  The mouth of the U was ideally 
to point at around 90 degrees from the attacking forces, maybe a little 
away from them.  The Hussites then put up a palisade to cover this 
opening.

Why a "U" and not a circle?  The palisade had a gate, wherefrom Hussite 
cavalry and infantry could make assaults after the heavy mass of 
firepower had disordered their opponents.  The guns disordered the 
Imperial forces, then the cavalry and infantry went out to mop up.


From: wballard at  (Ward Ballard, [140.218.193.129])
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Elephants on the Field
Date: 28 Sep 1995 18:37:23 -0400
Organization: The Internet

   For those interested simulated elephants have been
used historically by Arab armies where they built a wicker
frame that was carried by a camel.  In addition to the
shock of contact value of a very large animal during melee,
the elephants of antiquity usually carried a howdah protecting
a crew of 2 to 4 archers, javelineers, and/or pikemen. One
variant from Burma consisted of an A-frame like arrangement
similar to bleacher seating that carried upto 16 soldiers.
   However if you would like to use a more western medieval
or renaissance contraption with somewhat similar characteristics,
look to Scottish or Hussite war wagons. The scottish was usually
more usefull in manuever combat than the Hussites, which tended
to be used in a wagon circle fortress.
   Finding enough people to move these things without horses
will probably mean they never get built or used though.
   From someone who has spent entirely too much time thinking
about how to make a penthouse for assaulting a bridge.
--
Bertrand d'Avignon
Barony Arn Hold, Atenveldt


From: "Jacqueline M. Trimble" <afn36719 at afn.org>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: travel/caravan wagons
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 19:46:35 -0500
Mime-Version: 1.0

On 6 Jan 1996, Robert Youngs wrote:

> I would be very grateful for any comments, directions, or suggestions
> from the gathered assemblages on the subject of the use and
> construction of 'travelling wagons' or 'caravan wagons' (such as is
> typified by 'gypsy wagons') during period.
> 
>   --- Robert, known as Badger, the Curious ---
> 
Do you mean Vardos'? (I belive this is how it is spelled.)
I vaugely remember seeing an artical in Fine Woodworking Mag. many years 
ago on someone who had built one of these. Much time and money was involved.
I have also seen in one of the Ren-faire Publications that I get, an Ad 
from someone about making movable booths and carts. This may be an answer 
of sorts.I'll try to find a copy and e-mail the title later.
JT


From: DVANARSD at systema.westark.EDU (Dennis VanArsdale)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: travel/caravan wagons
Date: 8 Jan 1996 14:48:00 -0500
Organization: Westark Community College

On 6 Jan 1996, Robert Youngs wrote:
> I would be very grateful for any comments, directions, or suggestions
> from the gathered assemblages on the subject of the use and
> construction of 'travelling wagons' or 'caravan wagons' (such as is
> typified by 'gypsy wagons') during period.
>   --- Robert, known as Badger, the Curious ---
RESPONSE:
Having done a chunk of research with much the same intent just a few 
months ago, I can tell you what I found:
A. The classic gypsy caravan wagons were actually not built until the 
1800s, which puts them out of our period.  They were usually built by 
commercial carriage shops for the gypsies, since they took a lot of 
woodworking and other equipment.  But, boy, they do look neat!
B. The best books I found were English, and I got a look at some of 
them through interlibrary loan.  BTW - ask your library to search 
OCLC (an international database) or First Search (an easy-access 
version) for subjects like this.
I can't guarantee you can still borrow these, but try: The English 
gypsy caravan: its origins, builders, technology, and conservation, 
by C.M. Ward-Jackson, 2nd edition 1986, David & Charles (OCLC  
15109447, if your library wants to find it fast); or  Gypsy caravans: 
their history and restoration, by E. Alan Jones, Signs-Malton, 1981 
(OCLC 16549099); or  Discovering horse-drawn caravans, by Donald John 
Smith, Shire publications, 1981 (OCLC 8778833).
As I said, this all indicates that the fancy models we've seen in 
movies are OOP.  Knowing Fine Woodworking, if an article covered any 
of this, it may be a little thin on details, but these books cover 
the subject pretty well, and some have color photos if you want to 
check the paint schemes.
C. I tried something of this using my 4x8 trailer, but went more with a 
late period plaster-wall-with-wood-lath look, and topped it with a 
curved roof with fancy end caps and a scalloped edging.  The hardest 
part was building it in pieces one person could handle, since it all 
had to come apart and be stored, and travel only partly assembled 
(less wind resistance!).  The roof was in three sections, with the 
rear section able to slide back and refasten so that a porch was 
created.  I'd suggest you figure out what size trailer you can pull 
easily (with present and future vehicles!) and start getting 
creative based on that chassis.  Just remember that road travel 
shakes everything loose if it can, so fasten everything with screws 
and bolts - nails are not dependable.
Hope this helps!  -- Denys de Houtbewerker (Denys the Woodworker), 
Shire of Smythkepe, Region of Gleann Abhain, Kingdom of Meridies.


From: treewolf at ix.netcom.com(Robert Youngs )
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: travel/caravan wagons
Date: 9 Jan 1996 11:34:44 GMT
Organization: Netcom

In <1CD6AD771B6 at systema.westark.edu>
DVANARSD at systema.westark.EDU (Dennis VanArsdale) writes: 
>
> A. The classic gypsy caravan wagons were actually not
> built until the 1800s, which puts them out of our period. 
> They were usually built by commercial carriage shops for
> the gypsies, since they took a lot of woodworking and
> other equipment.  But, boy, they do look neat!

 <snip- but well worth the reading of the original post!>

> Hope this helps!  -- Denys de Houtbewerker (Denys the Woodworker)

Thank you, kind lord. Your comments are most informative and helpful! I
am curious, though, concerning wagons I have found in the book "Wheels-
A Pictorial History" by Edwin Tunis (ISBN 0-690-01282-9):
  - a Mongolian 'camel cart' is shown, dating from 1200 A.D., which
seems to be a two-wheeled vehicle said to be used by 'the rich'.
  - an English long-wagon, or 'whirlicote'; and a similar Italian
'cochio'. Both are late 13th/early14th century.

Each are somewhat similar to a covered-wagon of the American West, i.e.
there is a basic wooden box frame on wheels, with some sort of fabric
covered "roof" on arched hoops.

My dilema: both are said to be "women's coaches", and no mention was
made of whether these were used for shelter rather than strictly
travel. Are there any thoughts on whether this style would be
appropriate to use as one's shelter at an event?

   --- Robert, known as Badger, the Curious ---


From: Andrea Luxenburg <Edl at albany.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: travel/caravan wagons
Date: 12 Jan 1996 03:36:33 GMT
Organization: AlbanyNet - E-mail info at albany.net

treewolf at ix.netcom.com(Robert Youngs ) wrote:
>
>Thank you, kind lord. Your comments are most informative and helpful! I
>am curious, though, concerning wagons I have found in the book "Wheels-
>A Pictorial History" by Edwin Tunis (ISBN 0-690-01282-9):
>  - a Mongolian 'camel cart' is shown, dating from 1200 A.D., which
>seems to be a two-wheeled vehicle said to be used by 'the rich'.
>  - an English long-wagon, or 'whirlicote'; and a similar Italian
>'cochio'. Both are late 13th/early14th century.
>
>Each are somewhat similar to a covered-wagon of the American West, i.e.
>there is a basic wooden box frame on wheels, with some sort of fabric
>covered "roof" on arched hoops.
>
>My dilema: both are said to be "women's coaches", and no mention was
>made of whether these were used for shelter rather than strictly
>travel. Are there any thoughts on whether this style would be
>appropriate to use as one's shelter at an event?
>
>   --- Robert, known as Badger, the Curious ---

I recall a similarly described covered wagon used by merchants traveling 
from one market or fair to another, and the cover lifted off to shelter 
and display the merchandise.  I would imagine that, like a stationary 
sshop, it sheltered the merchant as well.  

Gwendolyn Goosefoot


From: dickeney at access1.digex.net (Dick Eney)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Cars at War
Date: 8 Feb 1996 10:28:54 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA

In article <4f8re2$1kn at cmcl2.NYU.EDU>,
Norman J. Finkelshteyn <nqf2312 at is.nyu.edu> wrote:
>Nicoli C (nicolic at aol.com) wrote:
>
>:      I appologize, I am jumping in in the middle of this thread, but
>: thought I might make a suggestion.  There are ways, if the owners and
>: autocrat are willing, to disguise vehicles at gatherings.  I have seen the
>: Japaneese encampment erect a canvas painting of the Great Wall to obscure
>: vehicles from Prying eyes, and I, as a gypsy, and working on a canvas
>: covering that will, when draped across the Jeep, will look like a gypsy
>: wagon.
>
>- A contraption that, if I'm not mistaken, is just as out of period.

Thought wagons, themselves, are not out of period.  And people who 
had any time to spare (Hungarians, Romanians, etc., note the etc.!) 
decorated everything wooden with carvings and painting.  So carved and 
painted wagons are not unlikely.

But on the topic of covering vehicles-- such coverings and walls are 
helpful at other events, but they are specifically mentioned as "not good 
enough" at Pennsic.  There were examples of each, before the rules became 
more firmly enforced, and that is why they are specifically mentioned.  
The real reason, besides oop and wear and tear on the roadways, for 
banning cars from camping area is that _they take up too much space_.  If 
we don't want to camp at the far end of the parking lot and walk through 
a suburban-looking place, with a car or two by each tent, we have to put 
the cars all together and put the tents all together.  

And wear and tear on the "roadways" is no small item, either-- I remember 
cars being pulled out of the mud by tractors even in "normal Pennsic 
weather" (only _one_ hurricane).

-- Tamar the Gypsy (whose persona wears whatever she found on the 
   magic laundry bush)


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: djheydt at kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
Subject: Re: Period horse-drawn carriages?
Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd.
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 06:02:09 GMT

Lillian of Ravenna <mleal at interconnect.net> wrote:
>Does anyone have any information on period horse-drawn carriages or buggies
>for transportation of people (not hay or other items - just passengers)?

There's a picture in, I think, the Luttrell Psalter showing a big
fancy luxurious covered wagon (four wheels, pulled by a couple of
horses, fabric top stretched over hoops) with windows that can be
rolled up in the sides.  It's full of noble ladies.  The
Luttrell Psalter is what, thirteenth century?

Certainly there were lots of horse-drawn carts, and they could be
adapted for people to write in.  Another example is the Oseberg
wagon, which has a framework with four wheels and a cradle into
which fit a wagon-body like a small boat, just about big enough
to move one rich, noble, not very athletic person from the wagon
to the ship.

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                         Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West                               Albany, California
PRO DEO ET REGE                               djheydt at kithrup.com


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: djheydt at kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
Subject: Re: Period horse-drawn carriages?
Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd.
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 13:00:20 GMT

Andrea Hicks  <maridonna at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Do you know when carriages, as we know them today, started being used?  I have
>seen pictures of QE I being carried about, but not in a carriage. Maybe that
>was just in England.

Umm, could you get a bit more specific about "carriages as we
know them today"?  I believe the thing QEII rides in for state
occasions is basically an eighteenth-century coach, and that the 
big innovation in the coach was the springs.  I've got a book
somewhere....

Here it is.  Stuart Piggott, _Wagon, Chariot and Carriage: Symbol
and Status in the History of Transport._  London and New York:
Thames and Hudson, 1992.

Chapter titles:  The Ox-Wagon from the Farmyard to the Court;
Chariots and Chariotry; Princes on Horseback; From Chivalry to
Carriage.

"'In anno 1564 the said Walter Rippon made the first hollow
turning coche for Her Majesty, being then her servant.'  The
distinguishing features of this vehicle were evidently that it
was not only covered ('hollow') but that it could turn with a
pivoted front-axle, unlike the rigid axle tilt-carriage of
Luttrell type.  It is not surprising that the Queen's first
coachman should be a Dutchman, William Boonen, as new skills of
driving a mobile four-wheeler with a pair of horses were needed,
quite unlike the fixed-track long carriage with a five-horse in
tandem."  (p. 151)

So that was what QEI had, quite the latest thing at the time.

"The technological problem facing the early coach-builders was
the provision of comfort and shelter in travel, however limited,
above all by reducing jolting and vibration by some form of
springing, and a general reduction of the body weight.  This was
not finally resolved until the supply of high-grade tensile steel
to make either laminated and elliptical leaf springs between body
and undercarriage, or massive C-springs for its suspension.  The
former were known as early as 1615-16, and the latter again in
the seventeenth century, but both had to wait for general
adaptation for a century."  Until the early eighteenth century,
in other words.  (p. 150)  

By the nineteenth century, so far as I can figure out, the coach
had finished the innovative and developmental process and the one
QEII rode in was essentially the same technology as the one
Victoria rode in.  Piggot says "At George V's coronation most of
the peers attended no longer in their coaches but in their
motor-cars, a recently invented tradition of ceremonial
transport; at the coronation of Queen Elizabeth II the extant
stock of royal coaches had to be augmented by seven hired from a
film company."  (p. 162)

Hope this provides the data you were looking for.

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                         Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West                               Albany, California
PRO DEO ET REGE                               djheydt at kithrup.com


Subject: Re: [MedEnc] Gypsy Wagon
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 11:50:57 -0400
From: gretchen at nls.net
To: MedievalEncampments at egroups.com

>From: "Niamh Maolan" <niamh333 at hotmail.com>
>Subject: Gypsy Wagon
>
>I want to build a gypsy-like camping trailer. I was wondering
>if anyone of you have
>good plans, ideas, suggestions or even some type of documentation for this
>type of camping.
>My thoughts to size of the trailer are something along 5'w x 15'l or so.

>Niamh ingen Maolan
>Shire Phoenix Glade
>Meridies

It happens that I am in the planning/ beginning construction stage of
building a gypsy wagon/ merchant booth/ travel trailor for a friend
who sells harps at ren faires and Pennsic. Ours is wider than yours.

For a chassie we are borrowing an idea from a hay wagon plan out of a
1970's issue of The Mother Earth News. Sorry I can not remember the issue
#. He drives a Ford truck so we are starting with another rusted out
motorless, haul it off for free 70's Ford pick up and stripping it down to
the frame and axles. This way he only needs to carry the spare in his truck
if he has a flat on the trailer. The spare and jack fit both.  The front
steering is removed and I welded come C channel brackets to the front
crossmember. That gives us a pivot point to run two shortened drag links to
the front steering arms. Ball joints are attached to a piece of angle iron
welded to an 18 inch piece of square tubing that sits between the C channel
and pivots on a 1 inch bolt. We clamped the angle iron to the square tubing
and hooked the chassie hitch to the pickup. Then towed it around in circles
while moving the angle iron with the ball joints forward and backward till
it tracked ok. Not perfect but the wheels don't squeel except at tight
turns. The towing bar pivots up an down and pulling the bolt makes it
removable from the piece of square tubing when it is set up onsite.

Once the chassie was turned into a trailer, we put two 6 X 6 beams just
outside the frame where it goes up and over the back axle. The top of the
beams is even with the top of the frame. We sat the hitch crosswise on top
the frame at the back axle and C clamps held the beams to the bottom. That
was the highest point on the frame. Then we propped the beams where we
wanted in front and I welded brackets at 4 points along the beams. Plus two
smaller angle iron brackets directly to the frame in front and behind the
back axle where the beam sits against the frame. We bought scrap metal and
made the brackets fit rather than buying new metal and following plans.
This is a low budget job and we do not have any faires scheduled till
next spring. We are making it up as we go.

That is where we stopped. The original plan was to build the floor on top
of the beams. We were going to build a tubing frame welded to our brackets
that would support the walls and roof with an arched top. The walls would
sit just outside the tires and removable "fake wagon wheel" pannels would
cover the wheels when it was parked. One side is designed to drop down and
becomes a shelf for the harps and merchandise to be displayed. We looked at
the space between the beams and brackets and now we are switching to lift
up floor panels and storage space below that sits on top the truck
frame.

For what it is worth, I learned to weld courtesy of Uncle Sam when he made
me wear these funny green clothes for a few years. I was stupid when I
enlisted. I admit it. Not as dumb as a girl cousin who enlisted in the
navy. Her scores were so high she was given a guaranteed assignment as a
crytographer on a sub by the recruiter. It wasn't until graduation and she
traveled to her assigned ship that somebody told her that girls can't
serve on subs. I now own a MIG welder for most of my welding jobs or
borrow my dad's oxy-acetylene torch or Lincoln welder when needed.

If the gypsy wagon works out, it looks like it is going to work great, we
may be making them for sale to other faires and people who want one. Plan
is to make it bright colors with bed in front and storage/workshop in back.
Still debating whether to make it half heigth with a canvas top on arches
that can be raised or lowered. Or to make sheet metal sides, pop riveted to
the framework with metal/tarpaper arched top and cabinets inside. The
canvas will be lighter and less complex. If we go with metal, it means
welding the framework to fit windows and deal with leaks. The canvas means
more time setting up, taking down and packing. He would have to raise the
roof to load at home and make sure everything was out of the way to put the
roof down for towing. If it is solid, we just close the side, flip up the
stairs, close the door and go. Solid is going to be a lot heavier and a bit
more expensive to tow. We will probably decide which to use when we finish
the bottom half and see how the springs are sitting. Solid means he can
bolt a little pot bellied stove to the floor for heat just like
railroads used to use in a caboose.

Haven't decided how we are going to hook up brakes. We can use the original
brakes. I want to do what some U-Haul trailers do and make the hitch so it
pushes on a master cylinder when the truck brakes. More work but less
expensive than adapting an electric master cylinder to the Ford system.
Unfortunately the U-haul system does not work with a removable hitch. We
are going to have to do some more creative thinking. The master cylinder is
going to have to be mounted on top the square tubing that is bolted to
the chassie.

Oops, wandered off again talking about the details. If you can use any
of this, I hope it helps.

Bernadette


Subject: [MedEnc] Re:  Gypsy Wagon
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 12:31:12 -0400
From: "Robert Dawson, PA-C" <rdawson at ezwv.com>
To: <MedievalEncampments at egroups.com>

Niamh Maolan asks: "I want to build a gypsy-like camping trailer. I was wondering if anyone of you have good plans, ideas, suggestions or even some type of documentation for this type of camping."

I've contemplated making one over the years, but now that we have two Panther pavilions I think the trailer will end up just for hauling stuff (a trebuchet and a ballista are heavy and bulky as all get-out).  One of the reasons I spent so much brain time on the subject is that I used to race sailboats, and saw a lot of good ideas on boats that could be put to use to lighten the towing weight of a camping trailer.  In sailboats heavy = slow, and some really talented folks have spent a lot of engineering trying to lighten the 'comforts of home' for the non-serious racers (serious racers suffer :-)  My philosphy now is that I can easily simulate sailboat racing at home by standing in a cold shower while burning fifty-dollar bills ;-0

I'd suggest looking at the book _Dinghy_Building_ by Richard Creagh-Osborne ISBN 0 8286 0073 2, LCCN 76-47918, or some other good books on boat building.  Remember increased weight = increased gas consumption, IMO it's worth spending more on lighter hardwoods, and a lighter but stronger construction.  Go to a boat show and pull out drawers ,and look under decking, etc. for joinery techniques.  As a rule of thumb, you can often use a piece of poplar that's half the dimensional size of a piece of pine, for greater strength, with less weight, and not much greater cost.

I've mentioned this before, but don't buy your lumber at Lowe's: their prices are consistently much higher than at a lumber yard.  I'd also suggest biting the bullet and buying a boat trailer or utility trailer to covert, you'll have less trouble with title, registration, and insurance later on.

McKenna


Subject: Re: [MedEnc] Re:  Gypsy Wagon
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 10:55:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lady Maggie <theglavins at excite.com>
To: MedievalEncampments at egroups.com

If you want some great inspiration check out this site.  
www.enslin.com/rae/gypsy/wagon.html

Lady Maggie
Margaret MacGregor of Glen Heather, AoA/APF/OGS
Seneschal, Shire of Rokeclif
Principality of Northshield


Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 15:06:30 -0400
From: James Koch <alchem at en.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Wagon wheels
Organization: EriNet Online Communications - Dayton, OH

mark lyons wrote: 
> Hello all, I was wondering if anyone knows where you can get wooden
> wagon wheels from, preferable in the UK.
> --
> mark lyons
> aka
> Septimus' Chronicles

If you are willing to order them from the US, there is an Amish tack
shop in Mesopotamia, Ohio which can help.  They do heavy reins and such
for plow horses and work with the area's buggy makers.  Unfortunately I
don't have an address and doubt they possess a phone.  The last time I
visited their shop it was illuminated by propane lanterns.  Also, a
caveat.  The Amish do great work, but it is not inexpensive.  

Jim Koch
(Gladius The Alchemist)


Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 00:58:24 -0500
From: Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] carts, wains and wagons
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

/* Feeder a, /ix., 248. Robert Hunt, Sergeant-Carter, to provide carts  
and wains for the King's use, May, 1415. /\M-, /31o, 312.

Johnnae

Wait!  I thought carts and wains were the same thing.  As in, wains are
carts, carts are wains.  What's the difference?
--
Ian of Oertha
--------------

Carts have a single axle with two wheels and a wain has two axles with  
four wheels. One of the big differences is that with a wain/wagon you  
don't have to worry about balancing the load fore and aft, which you  
have to with a two wheeled cart. One of the reasons I built a dog  
wagon and not a dog cart.

Okay, Wikipedia has this to say on wains:
"A wain is a type of horse-drawn, load-carrying vehicle, used for  
agricultural purposes rather than transporting people, for example a  
haywain. It normally has four wheels but the term has now acquired  
slightly poetical connotations so is not always used with technical  
correctness. However, a two-wheeled 'haywain' would be a hay cart, as  
opposed to a carriage. "Wain" is also an archaic term for chariot.

Builders of wains were known as wainwrights, just as the builders of  
carts were known as cartwrights. These trades no longer exist, but the  
terms survive as the surnames of descendants of those practising these  
crafts."

Stefan
--------
THLord Stefan li Rous    Barony of Bryn Gwlad    Kingdom of Ansteorra
   Mark S. Harris           Austin, Texas          StefanliRous at austin.rr.com


Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 22:52:43 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Harfleur 1415
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

The OED is more thorough, but you might try the following Wikipedia entries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cart

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wain

The reason I say "general differentiation" is because the two terms 
represent specialized usage that has changed over time with the definitions 
becoming comingled and more general as carts and wains fell out of use.

Wain and wagon are essentially equivalent (both term, interestingly, are 
used for the Big Dipper (Ursa Major)) and may derive from a common root. 
There is one archaic useage of wain that refers to a two wheeled chariot, 
but it is in reference to a four horse hitch.  Carts, incidentally, are 
pulled by no more than two horses.

One might be able to also demonstrate the difference by considering the 
crafts of wainwright and cartwright and see how they varied under the 
medieval guild structure and laws.

Bear

Ian> I don't doubt you, but can you find me a resource?  If I argue this, I'm
gonna want documentation.

Hey, they don't call me, "Mr. Technical," for nothing.

"Well, technically...." >

On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 6:35 PM, Terry Decker <t.d.decker at att.net> wrote:
<<< As a general differentiation, carts have two wheels and a single axle 
while wains usually have four wheels and two axles.

Bear >>>

<<< Wait!  I thought carts and wains were the same thing.  As in, wains are
carts, carts are wains.  What's the difference?
--
Ian of Oertha >>>


Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 00:07:11 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] carts & wains
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On the subject of wain as chariot, the OED provides, "poet, a car or 
chariot.  Chiefly fig. or mythological use.  In ME, often applied to the 
Four Gospels, symbolized as a four horse chariot."  200 HP engines need not 
apply.

The OED also shows that wain was applied to some two wheeled vehicles in 
local usage.  The earliest reference to this kind of usage is 1534.  Wain 
defined as a heavy four wheeled heavy wagon dates to at least the 8th 
Century.

Bear 


From: deddy2 at austin.rr.com
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] ideas for war cart
Date: July 12, 2011 3:19:48 PM CDT
To: ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org

One of my favoite webpages is Karen Larsdattir's: http://www.larsdatter.com/sitemap.htm

Here are pictures of wagons: http://www.larsdatter.com/wagons.htm
and wheelbarrows: http://www.larsdatter.com/wheelbarrows.htm

I hope ya'll find these (and the rest of Larsdattir's site) inspirational.

Jovian


From the FB "Medieval Dog Carting" group
Stefan Li Rous	
7:05pm Nov 8

That first wagon has leaf springs! I don't know of any medieval dog wagons, or carriages for that matter that, that had leaf springs. Some carriages with "hangers" but not springs. Or does someone know otherwise?
	
Rachael Bhakail	 
7:10pm Nov 8

Springs are very post period. The Romans had leather strap suspended bodies on their coaches. The technology was lost in most of Europe after the fall of the Roman empire. It survived in a small area in what is now Hungary. It the late 14th and early 15th century suspension technology started to spread out of Hungary to the rest of Europe. By the mid 16th century a fad in coach building got going. Owning a coach was something for the super rich. They were worthy of gifts between monarchs.

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	carts-msg	Page 2 of 18