sundials-msg - 11/21/04

Sundials, making sundials. The Pennsic XXV medallion sundial. Referances,  
sources.

NOTE: See also these files: clocks-msg, calenders-msg, med-calend-art, bells-
msg, A-Gear-o-Time-art, Sandglass-art, Watches-art.

************************************************************************
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This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These 
files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************

Tempus est, erat, non est.
(Time is, Time was,  Time is not.)
--inscribed on an English sundial.

From: drgnlair at nai.net (Bob & Nancy Upson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Sun Dials - How to?
Date: 6 May 1996 05:29:28 GMT
Organization: The Dragons' Lair www/BBS

In article <4mhl0r$ra8 at umt.umt.edu>, j_mohler at wmc34c.wmc.edu (Jason) says:
>Now that summer approaches, it is time to come up with a new project to
>fill my extra time and I was thinking of prehaps making a sundial.  My
>question(s) is (are):
>        1) What is the angle of separation between the hour marks?

An average of 360/24 or 15 degrees per hour (chances are you won't
need the wee hours around midnight... <g>  The seperation isn't the
same for each hour if you use a flat face.

>        2) What is the angle of inclination of the center post?

Depends on what variety of sundial you make.  For the simplest, the ideal
angle for the gnomon should be 90 degrees but the whole sundial (gnomon and
face)should be positioned on an angle of 90 minus your lattitude.

>        3) The sundial is centered on true north, right?

Yup.

If you have access to back issues of TI, someone had a lovely article on
building a simple (and fairly accurate) linear sundial a few years ago as
I recall.

Good luck!
Macsen


From: system at blah.bsuvc.bsu.edu (Matt Stum (SCA: Gwydion ap Myrddin))
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Sun Dials - How to?
Date: Mon,  6 May 96 10:05:20 EST
Organization: Shire of Afonlyn, Midrealm

j_mohler at wmc34c.wmc.edu (Jason) writes:
>Now that summer approaches, it is time to come up with a new project to
>fill my extra time and I was thinking of prehaps making a sundial.  My
>question(s) is (are):
>	1) What is the angle of separation between the hour marks?
>	2) What is the angle of inclination of the center post?
>	3) The sundial is centered on true north, right?

I wrote a program (DEC Pascal for VAX/VMS) that calculates the markings for
all sorts of sundials... horizontal (I presume this is what you want),
vertical, polar, reclining, etc.

You posted that your latitude is 42.25 N.  Here is the output for a horizontal
sundail, assuming the face is parallel to the ground and the gnomen is
elevated at 42.25 degrees and pointed due north:

Your LATITUDE (in decimal form): 42.25
 4 a.m. = 130.6521 degrees to the LEFT of noon.
 5 a.m. = 111.7281 degrees to the LEFT of noon.
 6 a.m. =  90.0000 degrees to the LEFT of noon.
 7 a.m. =  68.2719 degrees to the LEFT of noon.
 8 a.m. =  49.3479 degrees to the LEFT of noon.
 9 a.m. =  33.9156 degrees to the LEFT of noon.
10 a.m. =  21.2158 degrees to the LEFT of noon.
11 a.m. =  10.2129 degrees to the LEFT of noon.
   Noon =   0 degrees. (North meridian.)
 1 p.m. =  10.2129 degrees to the RIGHT of noon.
 2 p.m. =  21.2158 degrees to the RIGHT of noon.
 3 p.m. =  33.9156 degrees to the RIGHT of noon.
 4 p.m. =  49.3479 degrees to the RIGHT of noon.
 5 p.m. =  68.2719 degrees to the RIGHT of noon.
 6 p.m. =  90.0000 degrees to the RIGHT of noon.
 7 p.m. = 111.7281 degrees to the RIGHT of noon.
 8 p.m. = 130.6521 degrees to the RIGHT of noon.

Obviously you can round off a bit... :-)  You will also have to make slight
adjustments based on the time of the year, but this will give you a pretty
good idea.

If anyone would like me to post the program (it's slightly incomplete and
the vertical-declining routine needs some fixes) I'd be more than happy
to... You can probably figure out the algorithms from the code.

I personally like the polar and equatorial dial as the markings are
independent of latitude.  The polar is based on the height of the style.
The equatorial dial markings are an even 15-degrees/hour.  The style is
vertical to the face, and the style points to the celestial pole (due north
at an elevation equal to your local latitude).

Gwydion
-- 
Matt Stum                                                Ball State University
gwydion at afonlyn.midrealm.org                             Muncie, IN  USA   


From: cfrc_gagetown at brunswickmicro.nb.ca
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Sun Dials - How to?
Date: 9 May 1996 21:48:59 GMT
Organization: NBNet

Now it is time for me to put in my 2 cents worth.

We must keep in mind the period attitude to time.
They did not know about 'time zones' which cut every fifteen degrees
of the earth circumference into an arbitrary hour.
What they were measuring was the passing of equal hours of 
daylight and darkness.  To be period we should never try and
calculate how far off a sundial is.

Sundials are the correct time.
Watches are wrong.

A Sundial will tell you how many hours to mid-day or how many 
hours past mid-day.  Apres midi/post midi (am/pm).
The Gnomen (greek; 'to know') must be set to your latitude as it must be
parallel to the pole of the earth (ie north - south).  You may do this by 
elevating the base or the gnomen as has been explained in previous posts.
Draw a half circle and mark it off in equal sections from 6am on the left to
6pm on the right.  Noon is in the centre and the straight base is towards you.

This will not calculate what a non-period watch has to say regarding time.
It will tell you what time it is for your location. If you move east or west 
fast enough, you can arrive before you left.  Hence our present arbitrary time.
Go to Lloydminster, Alberta, Canada.  The main street running through
town is also the time line (as well as the provincial border).  So when the
stores close at 5pm on the east side of the street.  People move to the west
side where it is still 4pm!  I am sure there are other places with this 
problem/blessing.

To sum up.  The SCA, with it's version of 'SCA time' does not support sundials.
I have made a few and invariably people try to help and move the dial to match 
their incorrect watch.  Get ten people with watches and the watches will all 
disagree as to the correct time.  Ten sundials in the same location, properly 
set will not.
Mayhap you will start a revolution in SCA time keeping.  Good luck!

His Lordship Daniel of Stafford Pele, AoA, GoA
Quarterly sable and gules, a castle and in dexter chief a mullet of four points 
argent.


From: rlaw198166 at aol.com (RLaw198166)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Sun Dials - How to?
Date: 8 May 1996 14:16:58 -0400

Sundials are really tricky...you have to get it just right or like a
watch, your time will be off.  As a merchant, I sell wearable sundials as
part of my wares.  We have the ones called the Aquatain, the Explorers, I
have sundial rings and braclets and the Gardener's Watch (like a garden
sundial that you wear).  I have a great interest in the dials, but have
never made one.  I have several books on sundials and they show the ins
and outs of making a dial, so check with your bookstore or library on with
the keyword being "sundials" and you should find a great deal of info that
way.   


From: Tad Dunne <taddunne at concentric.net>
To: bryn-gwlad at eden.com
Organization: Concentric Internet Services
Date: 2 Jun 1996 14:15:46 GMT
Subject: Sundials

Anyone who wants to build a "vertical decliner" sundial,
-- (the hour plate is on a vertical wall, with a triangular 
gnomen/style) -- I have an Excel spreadsheet that tells you how 
to lay it out.  You put in only your latitude, longitude, and 
angle of the wall from north (or south).   Email me for a copy.

-- Tad Dunne


From: jartificer at aol.com (Jartificer)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pennsic medalion
Date: 28 Aug 1996 00:05:31 -0400

  OK, folks here it is, time adjustments for other places at 42N latitude:

   The medallion shows the local sun time, everywhere at 42N, correctly.
Your watch lies so we can have time zones. You must read the sun time and
then apply SEVERAL corrections to get watch time.

  The major correction is for the difference in longitude between where
you are and your standard meridian. The standard meridians are ever 15
degrees east and west of Greenwich England, which is 0. The US Eastern
time zone uses 75W longitude, but Coopers Lake is really close to 80W, a
difference of 5 degrees. The correction is 60 minutes for every 15
degrees, so 5 degrees gives us 20 minutes.  Most maps, including road
maps, will show latitude and longitude, so check your road atlas. In
Boston, being east of 75W, you would subtract some time. If you are in a
different time zone, use the same proceedure, but use the appropriate
standard meridian.  Note that time zones can be very poltical in
arrangement, and so they might not always make sense!
   The next correction is for daylight savings time. If you are on it,
just add 60 minutes.
  There is a third correction, due to the elliptical orbit of the Earth.
The funny 'figure-eight' on some globes, the  Analemma, shows this. It is
also on the cover art for the Pennsic Booklet, although it is not period
for quadrants. The correction factor is cyclic and varies through the
year.  In early August, it averages around 5 minutes, so we add another 5
minute correction.  This applies everywhere.

  So, 20 minutes for longitude, 60 minutes for daylight saving, and 5
minutes for the Sign of Leo, and Voila! "EDT=LAY+85", which is printed on
the medallions.

  But you don't live at 42N? The error for 40-44N is well within 10
minutes, except at a few extremes. I cannot make consistent readings with
the medallion that are any better than that anyway, and I am pretty good.
In any case, the medallion usually beats "SCA Time", which typically runs
hours behind all other time standards.

  If you live much away from 40-44N, there is not much you can do except
order a quadrant for your latitude from your local instrument maker, the
authentic thing to do.

  I hope you all enjoyed the tag design, as I put a lot of effort into
researching, understanding, and producing it.

Master John the Artificer
John Rose


From: stircraz at concentric.net (stircraz)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: New Sundials!
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 02:22:50 -0500
Organization: Concentric Internet Services

Greetings,

Blades of Tara has new sundials to offer for sale!  We have a new line of
the Gardener's Watch as well as more ring styles and bracelet styles.  If
you are interested, please see us at:

http://www.cris.com/~stircraz

Or, leave me email at stircraz at cris.com

Thanks for your considerations!

Lady Rhondalynn MacLeod
mka Rhonda Law
Blades of Tara
Lyon's Mountain
Meridies


From: stircraz at concentric.net (stircraz)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Personal Sun Dials
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 01:55:02 -0500
Organization: Concentric Internet Services

Pete Hardie <phardie at cyberatl.net> wrote:
> Susan Evans wrote:
> > I just got a catalog from a company called Real Goods that has two ring
> > sundials. 
> 
> I have seen a web page for a company offering these for sale.  As usual,
> I cannot recall the URL.  But they were posting it in rec.org.sca when
> I ran across it, so perhaps they will again.  If not, I'm sure a Web
> search can find them.
> 
> Reynard

Please check my web page at http://www.cris.com/~stircraz

I sell a complete line of sundials.  Would love to be of service to you!

Lady Rhondalynn MacLeod
Blades of Tara


From: stircraz at concentric.net (stircraz)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Personal Sundials
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 01:58:52 -0500
Organization: Concentric Internet Services

LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.EDU (I. Marc Carlson) wrote:
> <stircraz at concentric.net (stircraz)>
> >No, I don't take it wrongly. The documentation that I have is from the
> >information the company I buy them from sent to me....here is what they
> >have to say:...
> 
> Ah.  Well, I did read the advertising copy at the Web-Site you mentioned.
> OTOH, I will be most interested in trying to get a copy of the Sundials
> book.
> 
> And for what it's worth, the sundial you described in another message as
> the "Saxon Sundial" is what I was referring to as having been found at
> Canterbury in 1938.

Thank you for this information.  I hope that what I sent was enough...the
book is very good and detailed from what I have read.  It wasn't at all
pricey, either.  I think I paid about $5.95 for it paperback.  My sundials
are really cool and very accurate.  I, myself, carry the Aquataine, but my
husband carries the Explorer.  We love to "freak" the mundanes when they
ask the time!  :-)

Lady Rhondalynn MacLeod
Blades of Tara


From: bronwynmgn at aol.com (Bronwynmgn)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Personal Sun Dials
Date: 3 Sep 1996 20:54:45 -0400

woofie at Capital.NET (Susan Evans) writes:
>  I'd never heard of wearable personal sundials before.  They look like
>they could be worn as rings or pendants.

I wear mine (The Aquitaine style with the oak leaves) attached to my belt
by a silk cord.  I generally can be accurate within about 15 minutes with
it, remembering to add the hour as necessary for Daylight Savings time. 
Although oddly enough, I found I had to add *two hours* at Pennsic this
year...haven't figured out why.  Once I got used to it, I just added 2
automatically.

Bronwyn


From: jartificer at aol.com (Jartificer)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Personal Sun Dials
Date: 9 Sep 1996 00:03:24 -0400

> The Pensic site tokens this year were essentially pocket
> sundials...definitely the coolest site tokens I've ever seen,
> anywhere.

   I have obtained the surplus PW XXV medallions for the usual charity
(chiurgeons) benefit. If you want one (or more) send $2 per medallion,
plus first class postage for 1.25 oz, and a sturdy SAE to:

   John R. Rose
   Attn: Medallions
   250 Emerson St
   Pittsburgh PA 15206

   Make your checks payable to : "SCA Inc, Chiurgeons East" NO CASH BY
MAIL!!!! (Igor will steal it and probably not tell me).
  As usual, all proceeds will be split among the East and Middle
Chiurgeons. No choice of numbers.
 I also have medallions for other wars:

  PW: XIX = $5, XXI, XXII,XXIII,XXIV $1.

  Some years ago, a Lord (from North Atlantia) said he had a ring of PW XX
tags.  If you see this post, I would still like to have them.

Master John the Artificer
John Rose


From: Greg & Robin Kornides <kornides at usaor.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: pennsic xxv site token
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 15:29:13 GMT

hank harwell wrote: 
> I have in my possession one of the site tokens from Pennsic XXV,
> colloquially known as the "cheap gold watch."  Does anyone have a set of
> instructions as to how to use the thing?

Instructions can be found at:
http://www.icubed.com/users/jrose/quadin0.html

miriel


From: ysamingo at aol.com (YsaMingo)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: pennsic xxv site token
Date: 13 Apr 1998 04:20:17 GMT

Regarding the Aquitane:  I have a commercially-made ones in my posession, & have
used it with success for several years now.  Just remember to "calibrate" as
the seasons change!... Ysabet ferch Gwydyon of Tyr Ysgithr, Atenveldt


Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 11:56:08 -0400
From: Hank Harwell <cleireac at juno.com>
To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org, sca-arts at UKANS.EDU

About a year ago I was leafing through a book merchant's wares and came
across a book on constructing sundials.  In this book, the author showed
a picture of a handheld sundial purportedly found in the cloisters of
Westminster Abbey.  It was long and narrow, with holes drilled in the
surface along two parallel lines.  In these holes, one would stick pins
to mark the month/day, and the sun's shadow would fall across other holes
marking the time.  has anyone else seen this, and could possibly point me
to a much better description, where I might possibly be able to cosntruct
one?

Brother Cleireac of Inisliath


Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 11:42:27 -0500
From: Brian Songy <bxs3829 at usl.edu>
To: "'sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu'" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Making Sundials

Brother Cleireac - - -

I have a copy of a book very much like the one you describe (perhaps the same
one), but it is still packed after a recent move.  I'll see if I can dig it out
tonight.

IIRC, the book provides instructions for producing the sundial you describe.
 If memory serves, it operates like this:

<all of the following is from memory, and therefore, may contain errors>
The sundial is a small wood tablet, long and narrow, as you describe.  To use
it, It is laid upon a flat, horizontal surface, with the long axis oriented
East-West. The sundial itself can be used to determine this orientation.  A pin
is stuck into one of a series of holes, to serve as the gnomon (?spelling),
that is, the portion of the sundial that casts the shadow.  The proper hole was
selected based upon the current date and location - the different holes are
used to correct for the seasonal change in the tilt of the Earth in respect to
the Sun, changes in Latitude, and/or the seasonal differences between Solar and
other time keeping standards (e.g. Sidereal).  Moving the pin along the long
axis (i.e.. East-West) adds or subtracts a certain amount from the time shown.
 Moving the pin along the short axis (i.e. North-South) roughly adjusts the
"speed" of the clock, that is, lengthen or shortens the day.  The tablet can be
marked in a variety of ways (regular linear markings, logarithmically spaced
markings for equal length hours, sets of parabolic curves so that sunrise and
sunset fell on a certain hour everyday, etc,.) The actual markings were often
determined empirically,  for example, the sundial was set up and when the sun
was at it's highest point in the sky, wherever the tip of the shadow fell was
marked as noon.  Sunrise, sunset and the various hours of the day could also be
derived empirically, or by subdividing the tablet (e.g. dividing the portion
between one end of the tablet and noon into equal portions).  The holes could
also be determined empirically.  If a sundial worked in one location, but was
off in another, a new hole could be drilled to correct the time displayed.

Another type of small wooden tablet was also produced.  It hung vertically from
a string with the pin extending vertically.  My recollection on that type is
hazier.

I've made several sundials, and have enjoyed the process.  If nothing else, I
recommend you to make a simple sundial by mounting a vertical pin into a board.
 Start deriving your markings empirically, and as time goes by you can start
adding more sophisticated embellishments to your sundial (i.e. corrections for
date, latitude, etc.).
The process is a great learning experience.

If I find the book, I will post the ISBN, etc. tomorrow.

I hope that helps.  If there is anything else I can assist with, please do not
hesitate to ask.

- - -   Matheus de Troyes  (mka Brian Songy)
        Trollfen, in Meridies


Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 14:49:59 -0500
From: Brian Songy <bxs3829 at usl.edu>
To: "'sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu'" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Making Sundials

> Second, I have a question regarding your construction advice for the
> "Westminster Abbey" version:
>
> >If nothing else, I
> >recommend you to make a simple sundial by mounting a vertical pin into a 
board.
> > Start deriving your markings empirically, and as time goes by you can start
> >adding more sophisticated embellishments to your sundial (i.e.
> >corrections for date, latitude, etc.).
>
> So, it really doesn't matter *where* I drill my initial hole for the pin,
> I just line it up correctly and then mark where the shadow falls for each
> hour?

No and Yes.  :)   If you want to recreate a particular sundial, achieve a
certain degree of accuracy, etc. then the location of the holes is critical.
 The book I have has mathematical formulas for calculating size, shape &
position of the various pieces of the sundial.

If you want to create a sundial in a manner that, plausibly, was used to create
early medieval sundials, then the location is not critical.  Remember, though
that the marks you make are good only for one orientation of the sundial (the
sundial must be in the same position relative to North every time), one time of
the year and one Latitude.

Note that you can use this nature of sundials to generate an even more useful
device.

For example, make observations several times in a day, once a week for a year.
 Now connect all of the 7am's by a (curved) line.  Then connect all of the 8am.
 Then connect 9am's etc, etc.  When you are finished, you have a sundial that
will keep accurate time throughout the year.

...Or.....

Make the same observations as above, but connect the marks that belong to the
same week.  That is, draw a curve connecting 7am, 8am, 9am, etc. from week one.
 Then connect all of the marks from week two.  Now you have a device that will
tell you the date!

...Or....

Throughout the year, make a mark at the same time every day.  Connect these
marks with a line.  Now from a different location (i.e. a different Latitude),
make marks the same time every day.  Connect these marks with a line.  Now you
have a device for finding your Latitude relative to these location!

And there's a lot of other things they can do.  People are usually only
familiar with the simple "garden sundials", which are often not even set
correctly, and are not aware of all of the things sundials can do.  Find true
north. Measure the precession of the Earth.  Find the proper date of Easter or
Ramadan. etc. etc. etc.

It's to get the "feel" (i.e.. internalize their method of operation) of
sundials that  I recommend you try building your own empirically out of an
arbitrarily placed pin.  It can be a pain to make all of the observations, but
it can be great fun too.  It's  good to know, though, that if you need to
generate a sundial quickly, there are formula's to do so.

> Brother Cleireac of Inisliath

<muttering to self>
Hmmm...I haven't built a sundial in decades....let's see..I've got some scrap
wood at home, and....<more muttering>

- Matheus de Troyes


From: web7989 at charweb.org (hank harwell)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Westminster Abbey "Clock"
Date: 27 May 1999 15:19:57 GMT

About a year ago I was leafing through a book merchant's wares and came 
across a book on constructing sundials.  In this book, the author showed 
a picture of a handheld sundial purportedly found in the cloisters of 
Westminster Abbey.  It was long and narrow, with holes drilled in the 
surface along two parallel lines.  In these holes, one would stick pins 
to mark the month/day, and the sun's shadow would fall across other holes 
marking the time.  has anyone else seen this, and could possibly point me 
to a much better description, where I might possibly be able to cosntruct 
one?

Brother Cleireac of Inisliath


Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 08:49:28 -0400
From: Hank Harwell <cleireac at juno.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Making Sundials

On Fri, 28 May 1999 00:10:08 -0400 Warren & Meredith Harmon
<ravenleaf at juno.com> writes:
>Not to stick my nose in, but what about the sundial that was used as
>the Pennsic medallion at Pennsic 25?  That sounded like one of the
>sundials you were describing.
>
>-Caro

I have seen that one, and no, that isn't exactly what I was talking
about.  The one I'm looking for is more rectangular than square.  With
two parallel rows of holes; one row for the date, where you put a pin in,
and the other row tells you what the time is.

Brother Cleireac of Inisliath


From: Maggie Mulvaney <mmy at innocent.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Westminster Abbey "Clock"
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 15:04:21 +1200
Organization: ICONZ - The Internet Company of New Zealand

hank harwell wrote:
> About a year ago I was leafing through a book merchant's wares and came
> across a book on constructing sundials.  In this book, the author showed
> a picture of a handheld sundial purportedly found in the cloisters of
> Westminster Abbey.  It was long and narrow, with holes drilled in the
> surface along two parallel lines.  In these holes, one would stick pins
> to mark the month/day, and the sun's shadow would fall across other holes
> marking the time.  has anyone else seen this, and could possibly point me
> to a much better description, where I might possibly be able to cosntruct
> one?

I think the one you're thinking of is the one from
Canterbury, a late Anglo-Saxon portable silver sundial? It's
been publicized in a couple of books. I have a good picture
of it in 'Treasures of Anglo-Saxon art' (can't remember the
author, it's at home and I'm at work).

It is in fact a long narrow piece of flat silver, with three
parallel fields marked on either side of it. Each filed is
marked with points signifying certain times of day, and is
valid for two months: dec/jan, nov/feb, oct/march etc. 

To construct one of these, you'd have to calibrate where the
shadow of the movable peg falls at your required times in
your particular location. In other words, it would take you
a minimum of six months.... 

if you want more info, feel free to email me, and I'll see
what info I can dig up on it.

/mmy


From: mmy at innocent.com (Maggie Mulvaney)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Westminster Abbey "Clock"
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 07:33:41 GMT
Organization: ICONZ - The Internet Company of New Zealand

On 27 May 1999 15:19:57 GMT, web7989 at charweb.org (hank harwell) wrote:
>About a year ago I was leafing through a book merchant's wares and came 
>across a book on constructing sundials.  In this book, the author showed 
>a picture of a handheld sundial purportedly found in the cloisters of 
>Westminster Abbey.  It was long and narrow, with holes drilled in the 
>surface along two parallel lines.  In these holes, one would stick pins 
>to mark the month/day, and the sun's shadow would fall across other holes 
>marking the time.  has anyone else seen this, and could possibly point me 
>to a much better description, where I might possibly be able to cosntruct 
>one?

following up again now that I'm at home with my book:

The Golden Age of Anglo-Saxon Art, 966-1066
ed. Janet Backhouse, D.H.Turner, Leslie Webster
Indiana University Press, Bloomington

page 94, item 77 Portable Sundial
Gold and silver, inlaid with niello and glass, l=6.1cm, w=1.6cm
Anglo-Saxon, 10th century
Canterbury, cathedral treasury

excerpt:

Cast, rectangular silver tablet, tapering slightly towards the top,
surmounted by a gold cap and suspension chain. At the base is a hole
in which the gold pin or gnomon is placed when not in use.
Each face of the dial is divided into three columns, outlined in
niello. At the top of each column is a circular hole for the gnomon,
with two blue glass studs below. Each column bears the names, in
abbreviated latin, of two months of the year. The letters are also
inlaid with niello, some now missing. On one face are: /IAN DEC/FEB
NOV/MAR OCT/, and on the reverse: /MAI AVG/IVN IVL/APR SEP/. On the
sides of the tablet are two further latin inscriptions:
[SA]LV-SFACTORI and [PA]X POSSESSOR[I], which may be translated as
'Salvation to the maker, peace to the owner'.
....
A unique survival from the late Saxon period, the Canterbury sundial
measures time not by the sun's movement across the sky from east to
west, but f rom its altitude, using as its reference the vertical
derived from gravity by its own suspension from a chain.
The months are grouped in pairs according to their distance on either
side of the summer solstice. An instrument constructed on the same
principles is discussed in Byrhtferth's Manual. ...The method of using
the dial is conveniently summarised by Ward: 'To use the dial, the
gnomon is inserted in the hole corresponding to the month in question,
and the dial is suspended by the chain and turned to face the sun, the
position of the shadow of the tip of the gnomon being noted. Two dots
will be seen in each month column; the lowest of these corresponds to
the position of the tip of the shadow at noon, the upper dot
corresponding roughly to an intermediate time roughly halfway between
noon and sunrise or sunset'.

/mmy


From: "G Johnsen" <gjohnsen at accesscable.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Westminster Abbey "Clock"
Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 10:29:15 -0300
Organization: UUNET Canada News Transport

hank harwell wrote in message <927801294.893880 at news.charweb.org>...
>About a year ago I was leafing through a book merchant's wares and came
>across a book on constructing sundials.  In this book, the author showed
>a picture of a handheld sundial purportedly found in the cloisters of
>Westminster Abbey.  It was long and narrow, with holes drilled in the
>surface along two parallel lines.  In these holes, one would stick pins
>to mark the month/day, and the sun's shadow would fall across other holes
>marking the time.  has anyone else seen this, and could possibly point me
>to a much better description, where I might possibly be able to cosntruct
>one?
>
>Brother Cleireac of Inisliath

Take a look at
Sundials: Their theory and Construction by Albert E. Waugh
Dover Publications Inc. 1973

Page 166 has 2 pictures and a small writeup on a pocket sundial found during
alterations of the Catherderal of Canterbury.  This book gives instructions
on how to make a wide variety of sundials and might be of use if you wish to
make a copy of this pocket sundial.

Jorg Johansen


From: David Razler <david.razler at worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Horology
Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 18:08:15 GMT

On Fri, 15 Dec 2000 08:04:23 -0600, "Martin Catt"
<lodovico at airmail.net> wrote:
>"David Razler" <david.razler at worldnet.att.net> wrote
>
>(large snip)
>>
>> Aleksandr the Traveller
>> (the guy who walks Pennsic wearing an astrolabe or two, pair of
>> shepherd's dials, ring dials, a Canonical hours dial and a neat
>> pocket watch that's almost period)
>
>So, where'd you get your astrolabes? Did you make them, puchase them, or
>justhappen on them? What are they made of, and most importantly, do they
>work correctly?
>
>Regards;
>Lodovico (just gotta know)

Small astrolabe: cast britannia, workshop of Norman Greene - he has a
web site I forget at the moment. Unreadable at that size - readable
and usable in larger sizes, but only for one latitude. His pieces
include a carefully modernized and corrected copy of Chaucer's
Treatise on the Astrolabe and his own manual.

Greene also periodically does other period timepieces.

NOTE: "good" for a dial means accurate without learning how to adjust
each for time zone and latitude differences, etc.

really high-quality shepherd's pillar (looks like bone, good for
London GET ONE!!!) - The Stuffy Purist, stuffy at dandy.net
Tell Lea I sent you.

lower-quality astrolabe, high-quality not-fancy ring dial and decent
shepherd's pillar (paper on wood, good for Pyrannese) and simple
string sundials: Longship Trading Company,  PO Box 4004, Shrewsbury,
Ma. 01545 Tell Steve I sent you.

Assorted wooden compendia, nocturns, etc., along with other period
scientific instruments. Eian "Red Dog" O'Duel, of, I think, near
Rhyderich Hael, (Buffalo, NY) Aethelmerc. I don't have his address,
but he does fine woodwork. Until he improves his casting techniques, I
must say BUY his woodwork, but not his metalwork (based on what I saw
at Pennsic 28). I suspect this man's work will be radically improving
as the years go by.

Canonical piece, assorted others, from a variety of sources, Several,
including a canoncal, xseveral ring dials based loosly on the Eleanore
of Aquitane's gift dial ring, etc. are currently available from Maiden
Mongolia PO Box 11780 Shorewood, Wi 53211-0780. Not quite historical
or accruatel.

a-1 multipourpose piece - the Pennsic 25 "Gold Watch" medallion,
available from Master John the Artificier - best address I have is c/o
Esperanza's Books tuckers at telerama.com.

It tells time, heights of buildings, your Pennsic tag number, etc. and
hundreds are still available for a very small donation to the
Churgeonate.

HOW TO MAKE PERIOD DIALS:

Get a copy of  Sundials: Their Theory and Construction (c) by Albert
E. Waugh, published by Dover. ISBN 0-486-22947-5 list is $8.95 US

The rest of my collection has come from here and there, Pennsic
(including a GREAT equatorial dial), including two merchants out of
the jewelry/timekeeping biz for 8 years, other events and Mundania.
Keep looking, especially in mall "science shops" where I got my Greene
piece for 75% off at closeout.

ANYONE with info on setting the lines, engraving and constructing the
rete for period astrolabes, please contact me personally.

                                david/Aleksandr


From: Elaine Crittenden <letebts at earthlink.net>
Date: May 26, 2004 10:58:17 AM CDT
To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Ansteorra] Portable sundial company rumor update

The following is an exchange I had with the company that used to be known as
Shepherds Watch. There is a name change, but the company is *not* going out
of business. I have really had fun with their products (3).

Lete Bithespring

> Dear Elaine,
> My goodness, this story comes as quite a shock to us. The owner of our
> company is still alive. Due to illness he has transferred the ownership of
> the company to the employees but he still designs for us. Also we will be
> coming out with more products in September/October 2004. We have however
> changed our name to Creations El Sol. You can still view all the sundials
> available and more updates on our web page at www.shepherdswatch.com.
> Thanks for informing us about this and if you run into this vendor again,
> please feel free to inform them about their mistake and that they may
> contact us at the same number, same address and same web site.
> Thanks for your concern,
> Nancy
>
> on 5/23/04 10:41 AM, Elaine Crittenden at eshc at earthlink.net wrote:
>> Dear Sirs:
>> A couple of years ago, I purchased one of your Aquitaines at a Scottish
>> games affair in Ft. Worth TX. I have been delighted with it, since one of my
>> hobbies is attending a medieval/Renaissance club's functions.
>>
>> Just yesterday, I purchased your Nocturnal and Compass dials at a flea
>> market in Dallas, Texas. The merchant said your owner had died and that the
>> company was going out of business. Should I believe him, or should I still
>> keep shopping for your products as I find them with the knowledge that these
>> delightful pieces of jewelry will be available in coming times?
>>
>> Yours, perplexed,
>> Elaine Crittenden

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	sundials-msg