silk-msg - 6/19/05 Types of silk, silk in the SCA and period. silk noil, raw silk, dyeing silk. NOTE: See also the files: textiles-msg, fabric-SCA-msg. dyeing-msg, cotton-msg, cotton-art, linen-msg, spinning-msg, looms-msg, embroidery-msg, dye-list-art. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Expensive Authenticity Date: 1 Jan 1994 03:11:29 GMT Organization: University of California, Berkeley Gregory Stapleton wrote: >I am currently reading a biography of The Black Prince and in 1342, it is > noted, he gave a lot of silk to one of his sisters, which he had "picked up" > in France after the battle of Cercy. Whether it is "raw" silk or not I have > no idea, but it does appear that silk was available in period. >Gawaine Kilgore Oh, I wasn't questioning the use of silk, per se, just the types of processing and finishing that result in what we call "raw silk" today. The Museum of London textiles book has an entire section on silk finds which has been very useful in trying to figure out which of the offerings in my local fabric store would be appropriate to use. Keridwen f. Morgan Glasfryn Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: kjh at statsci.com (Kjrsten Henriksen) Subject: silk, was Re: Expensive Authenticity Organization: Statistical Sciences, Inc., Seattle, WA USA Date: Tue, 4 Jan 1994 22:56:51 GMT There are two kinds of silk that are some-times called "raw silk"--- one is silk noil, which is made by washing and spinning the short fibers from broken caccoons, and the other is tussah silk, which is made from the coccoons of other types of mothes which eat other things than mulberries. Tussah silk is woven in some of the countries in northern africa, especially those touched by islam. It is not as fine or as brilliant as mulbery-worm silk, and it's base color is never pure white. I don't know where else it is worked, I have seldom seen it on the market, and when i do it is out-rageously expensive. I love silk noil--it has all the warm-but-cool properties you expect in natural fabrics, it has a wonderfull drape and hand, and all though it is not cheep (i've seen it as low as $6/yard a yard wide; $11 for 44" wide is more common) it is cheaper and easier to find than wool of the same weight. malice kjh at statsci.com From: ayotte at milo.NOdak.EDU (Robert Arthur Ayotte) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Expensive Authenticity Date: 4 Jan 1994 01:20:44 -0500 Organization: North Dakota State University ACM, Fargo ND In article you wrote: : bnostran at lynx.dac.neu.edu (Barbara Nostrand) writes: : ] As I recall, there was extensive silk trade between China and the Roman : ] empire prior to the collapse of trade attendant upon the age of : ] migrations. The Eastern Roman Empire and the Parthian Empire (if I : ] am recalling my empires correctly) maintiained quite a bit of trade : ] during much of this period.] silk Regardless, silk was apparently : ] known even in Roman times. : The "Pax Mongolia" begun by Chingis Khan re-opened the silk road, : allowing trade between China and Europe, and facilitating the : travels of the various members of the Polo family :-). The silk : road closed again after the break up of the Mongol Empire in the : late 14th century Silk was being produced in Italy as early as the 11th C. Most of the fancy fabric that you see in pictures with western designs (european) was produced in Italy and the south of France. You can still see the country side covered in mullberry bushes in much of Italy. There was consideral guild control of silk production guided by the state, as it was important to the economic viability of the country if not the local rulers taxes. Yes, those are silk velvets and damasks in the pictures you see. Silk could be grown, where as cotten had to be imported and wool to my (granted limited) knowledge does not make a good velvet. Interesting note I saw on TV, seems that they still have all of the patterns for weaving the various brocades and such in Italy. One can still get the fabrics, but...the prices I was hearing were 800 pounds sterling per meter for the fancy stuff. Still think of the garb you would have! Horace From: sbloch at ms.uky.edu (Stephen Bloch) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Expensive Authenticity Date: 4 Jan 1994 15:59:51 -0500 Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences Robert Arthur Ayotte wrote: > Silk was being produced in Italy as early as the 11th C. Most of >the fancy fabric that you see in pictures with western designs (european) >was produced in Italy and the south of France. You can still see the >country side covered in mullberry bushes in much of Italy. There's a famous story of a couple of Byzantine priests visiting the Orient, stealing a couple of silkworms and mulberry leaves, and smuggling them all the way home in their hollowed-out walking sticks. Robert Graves, in his fictionalized _Belisarius_, suggests that this happened in the 5th or 6th century AD; anybody know something more solid? Silk was being produced in al-Andalus as early as the 10th C, I believe. The letter of R. Hasdai ibn-Shaprut (medic and political adviser to the Caliph of Cordoba) to the King of the Khazars describes al-Andalus and its products in some detail, mentioning among others "the leaves upon which the silkworm feeds." Now, I can't imagine mulberry leaves themselves as an export crop, since they already grow well in most of Europe. It's conceivable that he'd just heard that silkworms ate mulberry leaves, without ever having seen one, but it seems much more likely that there was a significant silk industry in 10th-century Spain. mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib Stephen Bloch sbloch at cs.umanitoba.ca -- Stephen Bloch sbloch at s.ms.uky.edu Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Expensive Authenticity From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honur Horne-Jaruk) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 94 09:57:34 EST Organization: there is such a thing? Summary: more comments on `correct' silks ayotte at milo.NOdak.EDU (Robert Arthur Ayotte) writes: > In article you wrote: > > : Dunno. Seems to me that there must have been, since wild silkworm cocoons a > : still gathered & used. However, I'm not sure that this fabric would have be > : a big export item for the silk-producing regions. It surely wouldn't have > : brought anywhere near the price, and it wouldn't be as strong as reeled sil > : Grania > Interesting note about the broken cocoons. Just a thought, but > I have read that shipments from china often came packed in the cocoons > of the moths that had emerged (sort of period packing peanuts). I guess > that the shorter wild threads would make good batting and filling for > quilted winter coats as it's a great insulator. Perhaps a felt was produced > by soaking the cocoons in warm water to losen the threads and then spreading > them in a thin sheet (sort of like paper making). The latter stuff is all > guessing, any thoughts? > Horace Respected Friends: Both correct. `Raw silk ' in the modern sense is mostly made from the cocoons chewed open by the emerging moths; back then they were wetted, stretched and felted or wadded to produce various types of insulation for boots, coats, et cetera. In fact, the `bell silk ' sold to American spinners today is exactly that, and the occasional Chinese citizen who finds out what we do with it usually risks a bad bruise or two from falling over laughing. Tussah- wild silk- is, however, another story. Since the wild moths do not have a controlled diet, the cocoons come in lovely golds, ambers, & browns, all completely fade-resistant because the color is chemically built into the silk strand itself. I can easily picture a small trade from India (which is where Tussah comes from) to relatively nearby Byzantium, of `Sunproof ' tent and awning material. I say small because, quite frankly, the taste for lumpy fabrics is an artifact of the spinning jenny. Not until smooth is the omnipresent norm do lumps become the lovely variation from it. In our period, lumps were found in fabrics like Shoddy (picked apart and re-spun and -woven rags) not in fabrics like silk. Tent awnings of wild silk I can just picture. Court dress, no way. For the original poster who wanted info about suitable silks: Get hold of Baroness Catherine Goodwyn's book on period textiles. Her Laurel was in costume and the thing's worth its weight in silk cocoons, at least. You may have to find a real oldster, though; last reprint I know of was AS18. If you can't get that, try Herbert Norris's 3-volume set, Costume and Fashion. Poison Pen Press (check TI ad for adress) is doing a facsimile reprint that belongs in every group's library. (It is also good for its unusual, and valuable, coverage of lower and middle-class clothing.) If you want more detail, just ask. this post is long enough. thanks- Honour Horne-Jaruk/ Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf From hal.physics.wayne.edu!corliss Date: Thu, 6 Jan 94 10:53:01 EST From: plains!hal.physics.wayne.edu!corliss (David J. Corliss) Subject: Silk My dear colleague- Some notes on terminology: Silk cocoons normally consists of a _single_ very long tread. The cocoons are soaked in water and the thread reeled up. Then, this single wound up thread in cut to produce pieces of the desired "staple" (length). A person who cut this thread into suitable lengths is said to "hackle" it; the same term is used to refer to the cutting of flax fibers (they start about a yard in length) to the desired staple. Generally, the processing of silk at all stages tend to produce short, broken fibers. These are known as "noils". It would seem that your last post speaks of felt made from noils. Silk does not felt well, as this process requires fibers that tend to "grab on" to teach other (my words). Thus, felt is made from rough fibers with a large amount of "crimp", i.e., kinky. Felt is produced almost exclusively from various kinds of wool. While I have not heard of noils being used for batting, I should think that they would be ideal: they are light, soft, insulating, extremely durable, and never mat together (i.e., do not make felt). Beorthwine of Grafham Wood From: sapalmer at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Sharon A Palmer) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: silk, was Re: Expensive Authenticity Date: 15 Jan 1994 05:24:29 GMT Organization: The Ohio State University In article , Kjrsten Henriksen wrote: > >There are two kinds of silk that are some-times called "raw silk"--- The term raw silk means that not all of the sericin (the gum that holds the cocoons together) has been removed. Which further implies that it is spun from short fibers, rather than reeled long from long fibers. Tussah is also known as wild silk and is usualy spun. But Pongee is reeled tussah silk. Someone asked about using silk cocoons for batting. This is called Muwata. The cocoons are simmered in an alkaline solution until they soften, about an hour, then opened and stretched out. That story about a cocoon dissolving in the princess's tea cup is _false_. Ranvaig (who once at a school demo tried to dissolve a cocoon by soaking it in boiling water. I eventually got it to work. The same reaction from all: Eeeugh! There's a _bug_ in there! Moral: Never try anything for the first time at a demo.) From: sapalmer at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Sharon A Palmer) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Silk Date: 16 Jan 1994 09:44:47 GMT Organization: The Ohio State University In article <9401081952.AA25034 at milo.UUCP>, Robert Arthur Ayotte wrote: > >Some notes on terminology: >Silk cocoons normally consists of a _single_ very long tread. The cocoons are soaked in water and the thread reeled up. Then, this single wound up thread in cut to produce pieces of the desired "staple" (length). A person who cut this t hread into suitable lengths is said to "hackle" it; the same term is used to >refer to the cutting of flax fibers (they start about a yard in length) to the >desired staple To "hackle" flax is to comb it, to separate the fibers from each other and from the woody parts. I have never heard this term used for silk. If you have heard the terms used that way, perhaps modern spinning mills do. Who knows what sort of perverse practices they are up to. :-) A flax hackle looks much like a single wool comb. That is, a piece pf wood with many nail-like spikes in it. You hold one end of a handful of flax, slap the other end onto the spikes and pull. Silk may be cut to length and spun, but is more commonly reeled. I suspect that the pieces too short to reel may be cut so that modern spinning mills can deal with them, but I would not expect this to be a period practise. Most period fiber preparation is aimed at obtaining fibers as long as possible because it wears better, looks better, and is easier to weave. Silk is reeled by simmering several coccoons until they soften, an hour or so. You loosen one end from each coccoon, bring them together and wind on a reel or even a stick. When one breaks or runs out, or if the thread gets too fine, you add another fiber from another cocoon. It then can be "thrown" or have twist added. This is not the same as spinning because it is not "drafted". Drafting is when you elongate the mass of (relatively) short fibers, so they slip past each other to make a long, correctly sized proto-thread, instead of a short fat one. Ranvaig From: hwt at bcarh70c.bnr.ca (Henry Troup) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Silk Date: 17 Jan 94 15:41:40 GMT Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada In article <2hb2af$ldq at charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, sapalmer at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Sharon A Palmer) writes: |> Silk may be cut to length and spun, but is more commonly reeled. I have reeled silk. Typically, you have a few cocoons unraveling at once and use the sericin to glue the threads into one. The finest silk is hand-reeled, using as few as three cocoons - three fibres. Silk is chopped in modern processes, but produces an inferior fibre and cloth. Long threads, no ends, produce the smooth shiny silk that we all lust after. This was a workshop for spinners. Fascinating stuff, hard work, and I got a vicious sunburn. Somewhere I have samples. -- Henry Troup - H.Troup at BNR.CA (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions From: priest at vaxsar.vassar.edu Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Early Period Silks Date: 20 Sep 94 10:25:56 +1000 Organization: Vassar College Greeting from Thora Sharptooth! I missed the original post on this subject, but saw this reply. Tangwystyl (hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu ) wrote: >Brent Kellmer (kellmer at u.washington.edu) wrote: >: Just a quick question: > >: What types of silks would have been available during the 9th and early >: 10th centuries? Commerce with Byzantium would have been common where I'm >: looking, so silk access isn't a problem. I'm also not looking so much at >: the historical aspect (although that is interesting enough), but rather >: at the costuming aspect. It depends somewhat on what your persona is, or what look you're trying to re-create. In my culture (Viking-period Scandinavian) explicit types of Byzantine silks can be demonstrated to have been used for a few specific purposes. In the nearby cultures (Anglo-Saxon, Frisian, Frankish), slightly different uses were no doubt the norm. If you're talking about southern or Eastern Europe outside the Rus culture, or the Church, I wouldn't want to speculate. And Tangwystyl writes further: >: I'm certain that raw silk would have been commonly available (is this >: true?), and of course silk damasks. But how about that "silky" oily (Note to Sasha: '"silky" oily' what, by the way?) >I have become very doubtful that raw silk _would_ have been commonly >available, especially in areas where silk was an imported item. And she is right. Byzantine silk textiles were made of reeled bombyx silk, not spun or tussah silks. This means that the threads were fine, light-colored, even, and highly lustrous, not thick, dark, slubby, or matte in texture. The closest period example I know of that is even close to silk noil, or what we moderns (mistakenly) call "raw silk," is one of the (presumed) veils in the Museum of London's TEXTILES AND CLOTHING book; although it is semi-transparent and finer than a noil weave, it does have slubby weft threads. Plain tabby-woven silks, however, were available in the ninth and tenth centuries; my people in the Danelaw used a few different types of it, mostly in ribbon form. Of course, the Moslems in Spain were also weaving silks by the ninth century. I do not know any of the technical details of those threads, although the same types of weaves were used as were used in Byzantium. As for "damasks," I doubt that Sasha actually mean to use this term. The weave referred to as "damask" is not one that is typical of Byzantine silk weaves in the ninth and tenth centuries: it is (simplistic version) a monochrome reversible weave with areas of "shiny" and "matte" making up the patterns. Nor is "brocade" what Sasha means: although folks in the Society often use it to refer to any multicolor weave, brocade is a technical term for a weave that involves a supplemental non-structural weft used solely for patterning effect. The actual weave used for the fancy Byzantine silks available in the ninth and tenth centuries was/is called "samitum," or samite. It is a "weft-faced compound twill," a thick, supple, lustrous multicolored fabric with a twill texture that was woven on a double warp. In that period samites were chiefly two-colored with large (sometimes geometric) repeating motifs or multicolored with smaller geometric motifs framing zoomorphic (paired elephants, griffins, birds, and other critters) or other naturalistic designs. >(research project queue #275: look into the correlation between period >silks and currently available fabrics) This is near the TOP of my queue. My general rule of thumb is to match the texture first (I like rayon challis for a shiny twill texture, but real silk is of course always preferable), then look for a pattern that's appropriate. Of course, that's only until my apprentice finishes figuring out how to weave the stuff.... ;> As always, references (or, in this case, suggestions for illustrations of silks from the ninth and tenth centuries) upon request. **************************************************************************** Carolyn Priest-Dorman Thora Sharptooth Poughkeepsie, NY Frosted Hills ("where's that?") priest at vassar.edu East Kingdom Gules, three square weaver's tablets in bend Or **************************************************************************** From: Blktauna at netaxs.com (Blktauna at netaxs.com) Date: 16 Sep 94 21:32:09 -0500 Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: early period silks Organization: Fidonet: The Black Cat's Usenet <=> Fidonet Gateway From: blktauna at Netaxs.com (Donna Bowers) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Brent Kellmer (kellmer at u.washington.edu) wrote: : What types of silks would have been available during the 9th and early : 10th centuries? Commerce with Byzantium would have been common where I'm : looking, so silk access isn't a problem. I'm also not looking so much at : the historical aspect (although that is interesting enough), but rather : at the costuming aspect. The pertinent question is, where do you live, fellow silk addict? If you can do mail order, that is one thing, but if you require a local store that can be difficult. : I'm certain that raw silk would have been commonly available (is this : true?), and of course silk damasks. But how about that "silky" oily : stuff that occupies most of the silk section in fabric stores? I'm : trying to work on garb for 12th night. : Any help would be wonderful. : --Sasha : kellmer at u.washington.edu Precisely what do you mean by "oily"? I'm none too sure that I would like that on me....;) Since you seem to be of Eastern origin, I can help somewhat. A silk damask would be the fabric of choice for any upperclass individual of Rus or Polish areas. A richly colored silk broadcloth would be a good choice for middle class. I can guess that you mean charmeuse when you talk about oily stuff. I have been told that it is period but I have no time period for it's use. I use a finely woven raw silk, simply because it is easy to obtain. Actually it is not totally correct for me, but until I can afford heavy silk twill and brocades, it will have to do. You can not fail with a plainweave as fine as you can find. Then we get to color choice. The best thing to do is go to the library and check out the natural dye books. They will give you a handle on color intensity and variety. Pick one you like and match from there... Good luck Tauna --------- Fidonet: Blktauna at netaxs.com 1:109/42 Internet: Blktauna at netaxs.com From: blktauna at netaxs.com (Donna Bowers) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: early period silks Date: 30 Sep 1994 16:54:52 GMT Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Anne Reynolds (apr at fc.hp.com) wrote: : Greetings, : I believe at one point Tangwystl (I hope I'm not mis-atributing the : question) asked "is the stuff I buy in the store, called China Silk, : similar to any medieval silk?" Does anyone have an answer to that : question? What I can get locally is China Silk and Silk Charmeuse. : Are either of these close to a period material? : Thank you for the help, : Rashiqah bint Azhar I have been told that the chila silk is indeed something to buy in vast quantity. The verdit is not in on the charmeuse Tauna Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: period silk? From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 94 23:02:45 EST Sheri.Stanley at p1.f1.n107.z180.fidonet.org (Sheri Stanley) writes: > VsuE> In any case, I seemed to have missed the final consensus on what kind > of > VsuE> silk is best. I'm thinking of a silk tunic from about the 11th c. in > a > VsuE> culture that would have had contact with the muslim world, and perhaps > VsuE> Byzantium. As I recall, someone suggested that raw silk would not be > VsuE> appropriate, but that's as far as I got. Any suggestions or comments > VsuE> would be appreciated, here or privately. > > Any form of silk would be period for *somebody*. "Raw" silk is processed from > cocoons which have been burst by the moth escaping. It can be made from wild > silkworms as well, and I'd bet if you found some wild silkworms, you'd use > the cocoons (that stuff's expensive!). > > Grania > > > "yea, that mouthy laurel" Respected friends: `Raw silk' cocoons produced when domestic silkworms are allowed to emerge were and are used- to produce quilt wadding. Yup, that's right, period Quallofil (sort-of). Obviously, since there was a perfectly good use for it, and it was being used for that purpose, nobody was thinking much about diverting it from that use. Wild silk is a different matter. That stuff _wasn't_ expensive in period. It was, like milkweed down, a poor substitute for something (in this particular case, cotton) that the users would rather have had but could not afford. People in medieval China, byzantium, and Spain (raw silk) and India (wild silk) had more lumpy, slubby, uneven yarn than they wanted just through the inevitable mistakes of beginners. They didn't have our machine- induced fascination with uneven work as `natural'- they mostly thought slubby yarn was entirly too "natural"- and they beat the lazy drabs who produced it. Fabric is one of the areas where we have to work hardest to overcome our modern mindset in order to understand what our forebears had (and wanted). We like "texture"- unevenness- because we see so little of it and are charged extra for it. They disliked unevenness; to them it was the evidence of incompetence. As a quick comparison point, try looking at jewelery then and now. Even their hacks produced better balanced, more even work than our "great masters" are exhibiting now. Alizaunde would have had some interesting words with a clothier who tried to sell her slubby silk. Prominent among them would be terms like "shoddy" and "fraud". Honour, on the other hand, buys raw silk when it's cheap enough, because it impresses her mother. (Una never saw silk till she reached byzantium, and still doesn't believe that incredible stuff is worm spit...) (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk R.S.F. Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf C.O.L. SCA Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: burlap and clothing/alternative loose weaves From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk) Date: Fri, 07 Feb 97 22:34:17 EST mtnmama at rmi.net (mtnmama) writes: > To change directions a bit, could anyone tell me when and where > a very loose evenweave raw type of silk would have been used? > It may be called silk gauze, and used for a certain type of > needlework, but would have been too immodest to wear as a single > layer of clothing. > > And the same question for hemp fabric, in a weave similar to a > linen suiting weight of today. > > Sheila Respected friend: On the hemp fabric, you're home free. It wasn't a particularly noble fabric, but almost everyone could grow it and almost anyone who couldn't afford linen wore it. On the raw silk, the news isn't good. Unless (for some obscure reason) your persona is a peasant from Moghul India, you not only wouldn't have worn the stuff, you would not have been able to imagine its existence. Until _very_ recently, the whole reason for silk was smoothness. Once the continuous filaments were reeled off the cocoons, _the rest of the fiber was used for insulation._ (we still have nothing- not even the fancy space-age stuff- that can match the insulating characteristics of silk.) The filament silk hit the silk road; the waste stayed home, as wadding in those nice thick padded clothes the Chinese wore in the winter. (The reason the North Indian peasants were an exception is because the only silkworms available there were wild ones that lived on oak trees; they couldn't produce smooth filaments, and the peasants were in no position to complain; it gets _cold_ in those mountains.) Raw silk became popular after the end of home cloth production. Once smooth factory cloth became the universal norm, irregular fabric like Tussah (the North Indian stuff) was suddenly valuable; it was hand-made, and in limited supply. But once that limited supply was exhausted, "raw" silk stepped in to fill the gap between supply and demand. All of this, of course, long after the end of the SCA's period. Use the hempcloth for non-noble clothing- underlayers and tough work clothes for the middle class, any and everything for the "honest" poor. Save the raw silk for flapper costumes. Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf Una Wicca (That Pict) (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F. From: gbrent at Kutta.Stanford.EDU (Geoffrey Brent) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Silk cloth Date: 3 Apr 1997 10:20:58 -0800 Organization: Stanford University, CA 94305, USA william thomas powers wrote: >> Here's an interesting question... how easy is it to dye silk? Is >>it like linen in that it doesn't take very well, or is it like cotton in >>that it will hold the color for quite some time (well, nothing lasts >>through too many washes)? >> I ask, because it seems to be most economical to buy an entire >>bolt of white, cut to need, and dye whatever color you wish. Would this >>be feasible... or am I just indulging in wishful thinking? > >Silk dyes gorgeously! ---one of the reasons it was so precious--- >Remember that it prefers ACID dyes like wool (*not* like cotton). >Using natural dyes at our "dye-ins" we have got some colours that >really contradict the "only muted tones are period" One thing you can't get by buying white silk and then dying it is the "shot silk" look, since that's made by weaving two or more different colours of silk together for some really pretty effects. Yes, silk takes some _beautiful_ colours, and I don't really like to sew with anything else... But to reduce the amount of dye that _does_ come out in the wash, I'm told that dissolving a good amount of salt in the water helps. Anyone know if this is true ? Washing it gently is also good. Rather than normal detergent, normal hair shampoo will do the trick. GtQ wearer of horrendously bright silks Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 04:27:08 GMT From: Maggie.Mulvaney at fp.co.nz (Maggie Mulvaney) To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Spinning Silk from cocoons Greetings from Muireann. I've been lurking a while, enjoying the wide diversity of topics and knowledge on this list! Lady Elyn wrote; >Although I have never worked with silk cocoons, my understanding of the >process is that it is reeled, not spun. A single silk strand is taken >from each cocoon and drawn together with several others, then wrapped >onto a sort of bobbin with little or no twist. The raw silk is still a >little gummy, so the thread stays glued together. I read this in an >issue of Spin-Off magazine that was several years old-- I'm not sure >where my copy is, but if it turns up I'll post any tips, historical info, >etc. I think both processes were used in period. The article on headcoverings from Fishamble st in Dublin (Viking age) discusses several pieces of silk material, some of them woven from spun silk, some woven from a spun warp and an unspun (reeled, presumably) silk weft, and I think at least one piece was unspun in both warp and weft. The unspun thread gives a soft, shiny cloth, which would be rather nice for a scarf. /Muireann ingen Eoghain * MMY * Maggie.Mulvaney at fp.co.nz *=20 * Maggie Mulvaney * http://www.fpnet.co.nz/users/m/maggiem * Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 16:15:37 -0400 From: Andrew Gilbert Subject: silk webpage collection To: "lindahl at pbm.com" I was fascinated to read the incredible list of questions and discussion of Silk. As an active member of the International Silk Association, a grouping of all the professional companies in sericulture from source through thrrowsters, weavers, printers, dyers and traders I am delighted to see the discussion, I agree with the comment that not all answers given are accurate. later this year we have are triennial conference this time in Bangkok and the new issues facing the Silk world will be up for discussion. For myself, I am one of the largest stockists of Silk fabric in Europe selling to leading fashion designers, interior designers etc. I am also the World Chairman of the Furnishing Fabric Section of the ISA, if anyone does have any questions I will be glad to join in. My e-mail appropriately is silk at compuserve.com From: ghazallah at aol.com (Ghazallah) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: [Q]s about Linen Date: 31 Jul 1997 22:34:27 GMT I have made very satisfying undertunics, partlettes (sp?) and chemises from a very lightweight silk that I get from Thai Silks by mail order. It costs me less than three dollars a yard and comes in off white which is nice in of itself, but it also dyes beautifully. I believe you can order it pre-dyed but my Baroness had had problems with pre-dyed from that company. It is well worth talking to them- they understand SCA!! Their number is 1-800-722-SILK. Ghazallah al-Qamar From: piusma at umdnj.edu (Matthew Pius) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Silk questions Date: 22 Mar 1998 06:41:43 GMT Organization: Univ. of Medicine and Dentistry of NJ Anna Horvath wrote: >I was at the fabric store today (as there was a sale) and found the most >beautiful silk! There were several bolts of silk on the sale pile but my >eye was drawn to a plain weave in muted colors. Now I am the proud owner >of four yards of 60 inch silk. >Okay, now what do I do with it? :) >I have an idea for an over dress with gussets. Are there any special >considerations in handling silk? Cutting, patterning, wash and wear? I >definately don't want to ruin such expensive fabric! The first advice I have for working with silk is Don't be intimidated by the fact that it's silk! That said, the main thing to bear in mind is that silk is more prone to fraying than cotton or linen, so you have to finish the cut edges to prevent fraying. One way to do this is to line the garment and thus avoid the problem. Another way is to overcast the edges by hand or zig-zag over the edges on a machine. Cutting the edges with pinking shears is usually not enough. Silk can be slippery (though not all silks are). This just requires a little extra patience when cutting to make sure it doesn't move as you go. If you are sewing it on a machine, make sure that the tension and type of needle are appropriate to the weight of the fabric, expecially if it is a very different weight from what you normally work with. As for cutting and patterning, if you're not sure about the pattern, make it up in a cheap fabric first. Then, when you're sure it fits right, you can cut out your silk. Depending on what your cheap fabric is, you may be able to use it as a lining, though you may not want to. It's hard to offer anything more specific without a more detailed description of the style of gown you want. Most silk can be machine washed (though some would see this as heresy). You'll want to do it on a gentle cycle or something like that. I prefer to use dishwashing soap (I'm told it's better for silk than regular laundry soap). I've also heard it suggested to wash your silk with shampoo. It does tend to wrinkle much, though, so you may not want to toss it in the machine. Handwashing is more work, and doesn't necessarily help with the wrinkling. Of course, if you don't mind wrinkles or ironing, this isn't a problem. The other option of course is dry cleaning. It is generally a good idea to wash the uncut fabric once by whatever method you plan to wash the finished garment, but I'll admit I rarely do this. If you check out alt.sewing or rec.crafts.textiles.sewing you will probably be able to find more information than you ever needed on caring for silk. -Ibrahim al-Rashid (mka Matt Pius) From: Brett and Karen Williams Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Silk questions Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 21:30:17 -0800 Matthew Pius wrote in response to Anna Horvath's questions about the care and feeding of silk fabric: Welcome to fabric-lust, Anna. ;) > Most silk can be machine washed (though some would see this as > heresy). You'll want to do it on a gentle cycle or something like > that. I prefer to use dishwashing soap (I'm told it's better for silk > than regular laundry soap). I've also heard it suggested to wash your > silk with shampoo. It does tend to wrinkle much, though, so you may not > want to toss it in the machine. Handwashing is more work, and doesn't > necessarily help with the wrinkling. Of course, if you don't mind wrinkles > or ironing, this isn't a problem. The other option of course is dry > cleaning. It is generally a good idea to wash the uncut fabric once by > whatever method you plan to wash the finished garment, but I'll admit I > rarely do this. I would like to add a bit of information to his excellent advice-- silk doesn't like perspiration. Silk also doesn't get along with detergents-- what you'll find that eventually silk fabric will start to tear away from the seams. What is better for washing silk would be a mild soap, such as a box of Ivory soap flakes, or Orvus paste (which can be obtained from a quilting shop or there's even an animal-washing version for horses called, IIRC, Horvus. Same thing). Woolite has been recently reformulated and is harsher than its old version. Always do it in cold water, gentle cycle is sufficient. Wash it initially by itself, or even the first few times, to a) check for shrinkage the first time, and b) make sure that if the dye bleeds (and sometimes they do, especially that color when on a car is called Arrest-Me-Red and bright blues). Adding a little bit of plain white vinegar to the wash water will also help mordant/set the dye, too, and act as a natural deodorant. Smells skanky while in the water, invisible once rinsed out. Never, ever, never put silk in the dryer. Hang it up on a smooth, non-metal hanger to dry. (I vigorously throw all the horrid metal dry-cleaner hangers away. They RUST!) What happens to silk when it's exposed to perspiration is that the bacteria that causes the scent produce acids that eat minute bits of the fiber. Permanent stains. A set of dress/perspiration shields might be in order, Anna, since I think you mentioned you live in Atenveldt, the Land of the Sun. A good fabric store will have them in stock in the notions department. So, let's say you've washed your lovely, smooth, silky silk fabric and it comes out of the process all nubbly and rough and a little stiff. Not to worry. You have two options-- since the sericin in the silk fiber has been roughed up out of the worm-spit-goo by washing, smack that silk a few times against the nearest smooth surface, like a large mirror or a glass shower door, or a glass patio door. Don't smack it hard enough that you break the glass, of course! The second, and easier method, is to polish it by ironing it with a cool iron-- most have a 'silk' setting. Don't go hotter than that, no matter how impatient you are. ciorstan (who never sends her commecially-made silky silk or sandwashed law office garments to the dry cleaners) From: lecassan at leahi.kcc.hawaii.edu (Cassandre Lee) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Silk questions Date: 23 Mar 1998 00:48:10 GMT Organization: University of Hawaii Anna Horvath (emmabean at phnx.uswest.net) wrote: : I have an idea for an over dress with gussets. Are there any special : considerations in handling silk? Cutting, patterning, wash and wear? I : definately don't want to ruin such expensive fabric! Cutting silk: Assuming you're talking about slippery silks, I recommend you get some pins made specifically for silks. That is, Dritz manufactures small packages of fine, sharp, steel pins which are supposed to have less of a tendency to snag silk threads. Pin the heck out of it when you're laying down your pattern and, again, if we're talking about slippery silk, cut each piece separately as opposed to cutting out a double layer at a time as you would with cottons, for example. If you need to make any markings on the fabric for later assembly, I recommend thread tracing. This will mean your pattern can't be used again, but fine silks aren't supposed to take tracing wheels too well. Patterning: Shiny silks have a nap, which means all the pieces have to be laid out with their upper seams pointing in the same direction, or you'll get a weird color effect when you put it all together. Wash and Wear: I wash my silks in cold water with dishwashing liquid. Just swish them around, rinse them out thoroughly, and hang them up to dry. Hope this helps! Cassandre Lee From: "Cassandra Boell" Subject: Re: Silk questions Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 21:44:33 -0500 Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Greetings. there are as many ways of dealing with silk as there are kinds of silk and I don't know which kind you have. But...all silk is quite tough wearable fabric. If you wash it now, you'll be able to wash it always. Spotting on silk comes from the water soluble size put on it. Dry cleaning is recommended for silk so that you don't remove this size. (If you dry clean it alot it'll wear off eventually). I pre-wash silk. Be careful, wash a sample first. There are some really poor quality silks (and cottons and wools, etc..) that get really weird if washed too strongly. Sewing it, depends on the silk. China silk is not a good choice for an overdress, good for chemises, linings and blouses. The texture of silk will tell you how easy it will be to sew. It's not any more difficult than any other fabric - except silk satin and China which can crawl alot. Be careful of pinholes if it is finely woven. Be careful not to over iron it. It is a natural fabric and burns elegantly, plus over ironing anything leaves permanent marks. Cutting, its always best to pretend it has a nap -like velvet. (All fabrics have a nap, it shows up on some more than others, it frequently shows on shiny silks) The best way to avoid actually ruining it is to wash all the size out. Spotting is generally how expensive fabrics get spoiled - once it has spotted and dried again it may not come out. Silk is beautiful fabric, not always expensive and I encourage SCA'ers to use more of it. Think, our current velvets, satins and taffetas, nylon tulle are all polyester or nylon imitations of the original silk versions. Which they would have used in the Middle Ages. Silk tulle and velvets are something to behold, very nice fabrics. Good Luck, Cassandra From: iseultnel at aol.com (Iseultnel) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Silk questions Date: 25 Mar 1998 23:03:53 GMT >start to >tear away from the seams. What is better for washing silk would be a >mild soap, such as a box of Ivory soap flakes, or Orvus paste (which can >be obtained from a quilting shop or there's even an animal-washing >version for horses called, IIRC, Horvus. Same thing). Nope, close though!! Orvus for livestock, including horses, is just called Orvus. Good, inexpensive, gentle. I buy it at my local feed store, where it comes in BIG plastic jars (about 1 gal.). (I actually use it for washing horses!!) Didn't know it was suitable for fabrics. Thanks for that tip. Countess Iseult nicElam, OP Teri Pope Diamond Horse Ranch--Rio Linda, CA From: "M. Shirley Chong" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Silk questions Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 04:01:19 -0800 Iseultnel wrote: > >start to > >tear away from the seams. What is better for washing silk would be a > >mild soap, such as a box of Ivory soap flakes, or Orvus paste (which can > >be obtained from a quilting shop or there's even an animal-washing > >version for horses called, IIRC, Horvus. Same thing). > > Nope, close though!! Orvus for livestock, including horses, is just called > Orvus. Perhaps this is a regional thing. I have bought Orvus in feed stores. I've also bought Horvis (or Horvus, can't remember) in feed stores. Two different brands and two different prices (Horvis is about half the price of Orvus for approximately the same quantity). Shirley Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: shafer at spdcc.com (Mary Shafer) Subject: Re: Silk questions Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 19:39:44 GMT Iseultnel wrote: >>start to >>tear away from the seams. What is better for washing silk would be a >>mild soap, such as a box of Ivory soap flakes, or Orvus paste (which can >>be obtained from a quilting shop or there's even an animal-washing >>version for horses called, IIRC, Horvus. Same thing). > >Nope, close though!! Orvus for livestock, including horses, is just called >Orvus. The original is named Orvus WA, a trademarked name. However, there are hordes of imitators, including Sorvus, Horvus, and Norvus. I think the gallon jar I bought from Upco is Norvus, in fact. Whatever the name, they're all sodium laureth (or laurel) sulfate. This is a mild detergent, very common in shampoos, and has the great advantage of rinsing out quickly and thoroughly, so that there are no residues. Buying this detergent at a quilting or needlework shop in an 8-oz bottle, usually labeled "Quilt Washing Soap", is the most expensive way to buy it. Going to a feed store and buying a gallon jar, labeled "*orvus", is the least expensive. The current Clotilde catalog has Orvus Quilt Soap in an 8-oz bottle, retail price $5.80, catalog price $4.64. I bought a gallon jar from a discount mail-order animal supply catalog for about $15 about two years ago (shipping was based on cost, not weight). Eight ounces is 1/16th of a gallon. The stuff behaves very oddly, by the way. Its melting point is somewhere around 70 degF; above that it's a light amber liquid, around that it's a soft white cream, and below that it's a soft white paste. When it solidifies, it develops a very odd surface pattern, almost like convection cells. However, it washes the same in any form, except that the paste takes a tiny bit longer to dissolve at the beginning. -- Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR shafer at ursa-major.spdcc.com URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html From: emma at clark.net (Emma Kolstad Antunes) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Wool replacement Date: 24 Jul 1998 18:10:19 GMT >Anyone in my neck of the woods know of a good store from which to get >silk at a reasonalbe price? I need the dress(es) by end of August. Thai Silks has a web page: http://www.thaisilks.com/ It's probably your best bet for finding what you need. They have a great selection & reasonable prices. Also try Dharma trading company. Their selection of silk isn't as wide, but the prices are mostly reasonable. Everything they have is white or natural, for dying yourself (they sell the dye). They also have cotton, hemp, and rayon. See http://www.dharmatrading.com/ -Emma From: Cynthia Virtue Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Wool replacement Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:43:39 -0700 > blue noile (spelling?) silk for $4.99 a yard. Quite useful stuff; I use it sometimes as exactly what the subject line reads. Looks thick without being thick, but it does loose its color fairly easily if you wash it, but that may not be a liability. Use of noil in fabric seems to be a phenomenon of this century; the books I've read indicate it (noil: the random bitten-through cocoon ends that it is made of) was not considered useful during our period. Maybe as stuffing, I suppose. -- Lady Cynthia du Pre Argent, Minister of Silly Hats, Crosston Subject: ANST - link: When Silk Was Gold Date: Tue, 24 Nov 98 07:29:06 MST From: "j'lynn yeates" To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG, bryn-gwlad at Ansteorra.ORG http://www.clemusart.com/exhibit/silk/index.html [Submitted by: rmhowe ] Subject: Silk (was: Re: Really Cheap Fabric....) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:03:01 From: "Joyce A. Baldwin" To: "The Merry Rose" Bridgette wrote (snipped) >My favorite places are down in Chapel Hill, NC. "Mulberry Silks" and "The >Cotton Boll" Not really 1.99 a yard types of stores, but I found that as >I became more conscious of historical accuracy they were great resources >for linnen gauze, silks and pure wools. Hit them off season, or having >one of their "Dogs and Dinosaurs" sales, and things suddenly enter the >realm of the reasonable. It was more a slow fabric stalking process >rather than a blitzkreig. A good place to get silk is mail order from Thai Silks in Los Altos, CA (Phone # (800) 722-SILK ). Brochure is free, they will send swatches on request; there's technically a charge for that but unless you're asking for a whole bunch, they don't usually bother. Mulberry Silks actually gets a good many of their silks from them, so you skip the markup. They're not actually cheap, but for silk, really quite reasonable. Sveva mentioned another mail order silk place but I have blanked on the name. Sveva? Are you there? Jocetta Joyce A. Baldwin In the Society for Creative Anachronism: Lady Jocetta Thrushleigh of Rowansgarth Exchequer, Canton of Buckston on Eno [Submitted: rmhowe ] Subject: Re: Silk (was: Re: Really Cheap Fabric....) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:49:16 -0500 From: "L. Ray Sunderlin" To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org > Poster: "Mohajerin, Leila" > > I buy silk mostly for dyeing or painting. This means it is white or > natural. I don't have the contact info here with me at work, but some > of the good suppliers are Dharma Trading Co. and Rupert, Gibbon, and > Spider. Both in California. These are much cheaper than the local > merchants. > Sveva > (collector of fabrics) {Snipage} Here's the URL for Dharma Trading Co. Dharma Trading for Tie-dye, Batik, Dye, Fabric Paint, and Fiber Arts Supplies http://www.dharmatrading.com/ Request their free catalouge, it's fill of info. YIS, Hargrove the Wanderer -- L. Ray Sunderlin ray at janrix.com 73 de KD4EVR ICQ# 3102499 Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 18:31:51 -0500 From: capriest at cs.vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman) To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Silk Threads Ingvild asked: >A question: given that all other parameters are the same, which type of >silk thread would be more correct for medieval textiles: one with a matte >finish or one with a shiny finish? Well, of course, it depends on the textile. But for the most part the silk textiles current in medieval Europe were woven of thrown silk, which is significantly more shiny than the short-fibered spun silk (e.g., dupioni and noil) we see so much of in the modern world. Go for the gloss. ;> Carolyn Priest-Dorman Thora Sharptooth capriest at cs.vassar.edu Frostahlid, Austrriki From: hrjones at socrates.berkeley.edu () Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Help with silk Date: 24 Aug 1999 02:55:28 GMT Organization: University of California at Berkeley Lyrra Madril (lyrra at cybernex.net) wrote: : Having just returned from War I have been going over my spoils. One of : the things that I bought was a wad of silk. Not cloth, not thread, just : silk fiber in a flattish deflated pancake shape. Now what do I do with : it? I would like to be able to spin at least some of it, but mostly I : bought it to make into doll wigs. (really) : How do I get the fibers to go in the same direction? Card it like wool? : Right now it's a flat wad of fluff - no ends that I have found, ot I'd : just unravel. There are (very roughly) two ways of processing silk into thread. One is "reeling" where the threads of a number of cocoons are unwound from the cocoons together (and often given a slight twist in the process, although only very slight). This process produces the very fine, glossy thread most characteristically associated with silk. The other type of process involves loosening the cocoon in the same way as for reeling but instead spreading the fibers out into a thin "sheet", and then repeating the process with many other cocoons until you have a "flattish deflated pancake shape" (sometimes called a "cap"). This is spun with a spindle by pulling up a few fibers from the mass to start and then drawing the thread off the mass just as you would with a carded roll of wool. This thread will necessarily be more twisted and less glossy than reeled silk, as well as normally being thicker. Unless I'm misunderstanding your description of what you have, you cannot get the fibers to line up in the "reeled" sense -- for that, you have to start with cocoons. I have no idea whether carding the mass will do anything useful, but I don't believe it's part of the usual process. (Disclaimer: I've taken one class in how to reel silk which included a brief description of creating and spinning from a "cap". There are things I don't know about the process.) Tangwystyl ********************************************************* Heather Rose Jones hrjones at socrates.berkeley.edu ********************************************************** Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: "Orsini, Eva E." Subject: Help with silk Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:35:00 -0500 > Unless I'm misunderstanding your description of what you have, you cannot > get the fibers to line up in the "reeled" sense -- for that, you have to > start with cocoons. I have no idea whether carding the mass will do > anything useful, but I don't believe it's part of the usual process. > (Disclaimer: I've taken one class in how to reel silk which included a > brief description of creating and spinning from a "cap". > There are things I don't know about the process.) > > Tangwystyl As the caps are a whole mess of very loooonnnggg fibers you would need to cut it up to card it so it's probably not a good idea. I have seen these caps teesed out and spread over a distaff and then spun a little like flax. Aoife Ni Aodhagain From: "Robert S. McGann" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Help with silk Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 20:10:25 -0400 hrjones at socrates.berkeley.edu () wrote: > There are (very roughly) two ways of processing silk into thread. One is > "reeling" where the threads of a number of cocoons are unwound from the > cocoons together (and often given a slight twist in the process, although > only very slight). This process produces the very fine, glossy thread > most characteristically associated with silk. One possibility if you want to try "reeling" the silk fiber is to look up the 19th century equivalent of the Reader's Digest Home Manuals. One book, "The Home and Farm Manual" by Jonathan Periam and published originally in 1884, has illustrations of what appear to be various type of reeling machines, all hand-operated. While the illustrations all seem to start with the cocoons, if the threads in your "pancake" can be extracted, these types of reeling machines could probably transform them into usable thread. Ribert Diolun of Armagh mka Bob McGann From: hrjones at socrates.berkeley.edu () Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Help with silk Date: 25 Aug 1999 02:00:10 GMT Organization: University of California at Berkeley Robert S. McGann (rsmcgann at us.hsanet.net) wrote: : One possibility if you want to try "reeling" the silk fiber is to look up : the 19th century equivalent of the Reader's Digest Home Manuals. One book, : "The Home and Farm Manual" by Jonathan Periam and published originally in : 1884, has illustrations of what appear to be various type of reeling : machines, all hand-operated. While the illustrations all seem to start with : the cocoons, if the threads in your "pancake" can be extracted, these types : of reeling machines could probably transform them into usable thread. The problem with trying to "reel" thread from a silk "cap" can be imagined if you visualize the difference between using thread by unwinding it from a spool versus taking a spool's worth of thread that has been dumped loosely in a heap and trying to use it by pulling on the nearest section. Silk reels neatly off the cocoon because of how it was laid down by the worm. Once you've messed up the orderly cocoon, it simply won't reel. It can be spun, but it can't be reeled. Tangwystyl ********************************************************* Heather Rose Jones hrjones at socrates.berkeley.edu ********************************************************** Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 13:31:07 -0500 From: AEllin Olafs dotter Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Midrealm News Regarding Cooks To: Cooks within the SCA I don't have a clue if Emmelyne cooks at all. Her work with string, though, especially silk, is quite period and quite impressive. The string geek lists are rejoicing loudly. (Especially the people doing detailed research, as well as good craftwork.) http://www.silkewerk.com/ though that barely brushs the surface of her work, I gather. AEllin Edited by Mark S. Harris silk-msg