mordants-msg - 7/30/98

Mordants for dyeing. Both period and modern.

NOTE: See also these files: dyeing-msg, dye-list-art, color-a-fab-bib, green-
art, p-bleach-fab-msg, textiles-msg.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: cav at storm.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: dyes and mordants (was Wode) (sic)
Date: 24 Mar 1998 14:20:21 GMT
Organization: Handmade Parchment and Vellum

"Trevor Barker" <barkert at delete.logica.com> writes:

|> BTW, does anyone have information on period mordants?  Was alum really
|> available (and in which periods?) or was there something else they used?

The use of alum dates back to Roman times.  Its availability in Northern
Europe as an imported commodity after the fall of Rome and before the 'high
middle ages' is by no means certain,
but we certainly see references to it in things like the Mappae Clavicula and
Theophilus.  Certainly, once the trade routes were re-established it would
have been available, and references to it's use are abundant.  
Apparently, there are species of club moss that can be
used as a substitute (high native alum content?), and these may have been used
in the more Northern areas when alum was not available as an import from the
south.

Iron salts (Roman vitriol, ferrous acetate, etc.) were used as mordants, but
you get dark or 'sad' colours (in particular, they would have been used with
tannins to get greys and 'black').  Similarly for copper salts.  No evidence
for the use of tin and chrome salts in period that I know of.

These metallic salts would have been used with the protein based fibers: wool
and silk.  For linen and cotton (where available), mordanting is more complex,
and involves non-mineral agents.  I'm not as familiar with these processes,
as I dye skins (and collagen is a protein).

Also, some period dyes were substantive, and did not require mordants.  
Eg.  woad/indigo, walnut hulls, lichen purples

Cheers, Rick/Balderik


From: priest at NOSPAMvassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: dyes and mordants (was Wode) (sic)
Date: 25 Mar 1998 03:33:52 GMT
Organization: Vassar College

Greeting from Thora Sharptooth!

Balderik (caxv at storm.ca) [hi, Balderik!!!] wrote:
>Apparently, there are species of club moss that can be
>used as a substitute (high native alum content?), and these may have been used
>in the more Northern areas when alum was not available as an import from the
>south.

Diphasium complanatum; there's both archaeological and ethnographic evidence 
for its use as a mordant.

>Also, some period dyes were substantive, and did not require mordants.  
>Eg.  woad/indigo, walnut hulls, lichen purples

Saffron also needs no mordant; and then there were the murex dyes, for the 
deep of pockets. ;>
*****************************************************************
Carolyn Priest-Dorman             Thora Sharptooth
capriest at cs.vassar.edu            Frostahlid, Austrrik
        Gules, three square weaver's tablets in bend Or
      http://www.cs.vassar.edu/~capriest/vikresource.html
*****************************************************************


From: "Morgan E. Smith" <mesmith at calcna.ab.ca>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: dyes and mordants (was Wode) (sic)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 07:10:05 -0700
Organization: Calgary Community Network Assoc.

Regarding tin as a mordant in period: There may not be any record of tin
mordants being imported, etc., but there is considerable evidence for the
knowledge and skill of medieval dyers using _the pot_ as mordant. A tin or
tinlined pot would affect the dye in the same way as modern tin mordant.
Iron was also utilised in this fashion.
  Chrome, of course, is another story.
Morgan the Unknown


From: cav at storm.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: dyes and mordants (was Wode) (sic)
Date: 25 Mar 1998 16:28:53 GMT
Organization: Handmade Parchment and Vellum

"Morgan E. Smith" <mesmith at calcna.ab.ca> writes:
|> Regarding tin as a mordant in period: There may not be any record of tin
|> mordants being imported, etc., but there is considerable evidence for the
|> knowledge and skill of medieval dyers using _the pot_ as mordant. A tin or
|> tinlined pot would affect the dye in the same way as modern tin mordant.

Would it?  The metallic tin lining the pot would have to enter solution as
a cation for it to act as a mordant.  Something in the dye bath would
have to react with the tin to form a soluble salt.  This is fairly easy with
iron, but I'm not familiar with the reactivity of tin.

I would have thought that tin was used to line things like pots and cans
because it is relatively non-reactive, but that's speculation.

|> Iron was also utilised in this fashion.

Yes, because Iron oxidizes readily, and you can form iron salts fairly
easily with an acidic dyebath.  Similarly for copper I would think.

Cheers, Rick/Balderik


From: tsrra at aol.com (Tsrra)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: dyes and mordants (was Wode) (sic)
Date: 26 Mar 1998 05:20:13 GMT

Greg & Robin Kornides <kornides at usaor.net> writes:

>What's the difference between the alum that's a mordant and the alum
>that's used to make pickles crispy?  I recall hearing they were two
>different things, but can't remember the details.  Is the mordant alum
>very hazardous?  (it seems clear that pickling alum is safe to eat)

There are several different types of alum.  In common useage for protein fibers
nowadays is aluminum sulfate, aluminum acetate is used for cellulose fibers. 
Most natural dyehouse suppliers carry potassium aluminum sulfate.

As for the period alums, they could have been any number of different ones,
depending upon the local of the dyer and whether or not he had access to
imported alum.

Basically, you can mordant with either dyeing or pickling alum. Pickling alum
is generally the same thing as dyeing alum, just in a purer grade that is
classed as edible, or food grade.   Neither are classed as a dangerous
chemical, but it is unwise to breathe in much of the dust in any case.
T S Ohara


From: "Morgan E. Smith" <mesmith at calcna.ab.ca>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: dyes and mordants (was Wode) (sic)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:44:16 -0700
Organization: Calgary Community Network Assoc.

In regards to the use of pot-as-mordant: I've done it. (My husband's a
goldsmith: metal is easy to come by at our house) Tin (real tin, not pot
metal which is a modern item, or pewter, which is nowadays not the same as
what was found in the past, for safety reasons) can be introduced into the
pot as a solid form, or as part of the pot. See Karen Casselman's "Craft
of the Dyer" (Dover Books) - she discusses this at length. You're quite
right: copper and iron are the easy ones, because they are easy to find
(old pennies, nails) and people may have difficulty finding tin in an
unadulterated form these days. Tin cans aren't tin, but sometimes you can
find tin-lined washbasins etc.
  For copper, I advise caution: not only are pennies made after about 1960
alloyed with aluminium, but copper tends to produce some noxious fumes. As
with all dye-stuffs, you should only work in well-ventilated areas, use
neoprene gloves (NOT ordinary rubber gloves from the supermarket: they
simply aren't good enough, and I don't recommend surgical latex gloves,
for many of the same reasons) and don't stick your head in the pot.
Morgan the Unknown


From: "sunshinegirl" <sunshinegirl at steward-net.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: dyes and mordants (was Wode) (sic)
Date: 2 Apr 98 06:07:38 GMT

Greg & Robin Kornides <kornides at usaor.net> wrote:
> What's the difference between the alum that's a mordant and the alum
> that's used to make pickles crispy?  I recall hearing they were two
> different things, but can't remember the details.  Is the mordant alum
> very hazardous?  (it seems clear that pickling alum is safe to eat)
> 
> miriel

My bottles say they are the same thing, but the mordant is powdered, I buy
it from a pharmacist, for much less than the grocery store pickling spice. 
My book on dying refers to alum as being the safest of the mordants,
besides using an iron pot to dye in.    But all my references to alum say
to also use cream of tartar with it.  What exactly is cream of tartar, and
how was it used in the middle ages??
Melandra of the Woods


From: tsrra at aol.com (Tsrra)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: dyes and mordants (was Wode) (sic)
Date: 2 Apr 1998 07:41:27 GMT

"sunshinegirl" <sunshinegirl at steward-net.com> writes:
>But all my references to alum say
>to also use cream of tartar with it.  What exactly is cream of tartar, and
>how was it used in the middle ages??

Cream of tartar is from the white crystalline deposits left in the wine-making
process.  It is an acid, and changes the color of some dyes, particularly
cochineal.

T S Ohara


Subject: Re: ANST - natural dyeing ...
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 98 08:23:22 MST
From: jhartel <jhartel at net-link.net>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

I have been rereading some of the posts on the natural dyeing topic and
realized I threw out a few words that someone unfamilar with natural
dyeing might not understand.    The word that hit me the hardest was
"mordant".  So here goes...A "mordant" is a mineral salt that is used
either in the dyebath itself, or as a pre/post wash of the fibers that
were dyed.  Thes minerals effect the color of the dye and help to hold
the color to the fiber. (wool, cotton, silk, etc...)  I used several
mordants when I dye.  I use alum (kitchen type since I have not found
the other), Iron and copper which I purchased from a dyeing company.
Chrome and tin are other mordants.
 The iron content in the water up here in Michigan is pretty high and I
can see where it has effected my dyeing.  While in Texas, I dyed using
dandelion heads  and got some very bright yellows.  I used the
dandelions from here with the same mordants as I used in Texas, only to
have the colors come out a bit more subdued.  It could be from the water
or perhaps the soil differences.

Moriel***
[who is "really" starting to wonder about dyeing with that hydrangia
bush...]


Subject: ANST - More on Dye-stuffs
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 98 12:48:32 MST
From: "Laury Torrence" <J-LTorrence at worldnet.att.net>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

Finally found my snippet of info on mordants for dyeing.
Earlier, 'wolf had posed a question regarding the use
of alum, here's what I found:

Mordants- Color is influenced by the choice of mordant. A mordant
(from the Latin mordere, to bite) is used to help "fix" the dye.  Some
common mordants are listed velow; they are available from pharmacies
or dye suppliers

Alum - (aluminum potassium sulfate) Often combined with cream of tartar
           gives bright clear colors.

Iron - (ferrous sulfate) Dulls and deepens colors and is called a "saddening"
         agent.

Copper - (copper sulfate) Used with vinegar, gives a blue-green tint to colors
        It is also poisonous, so should be handled with care.

Chrome and Tin - Chrome gives color depth and greater permanence, and
        tin brightens tones.  Again both are poisonous.

I think you are supposed to use glass or enamelware basins for your dye
baths, because an aluminum basin would add its' chemical components
to your dye bath even if you didn't want it.  So your stuff would not come
out quite the way you might want it to. Once again I pulled this out of
"The Complete Book of Herbs - a practical guide to growing and using herbs
by Lesley Bremness.  It has a nice helpful section on natural dye-stuffs, with
easy to read and follow instructions.  It also tells you about the types of 
colors you get from natural herbs and other plants.  Somewhere I have an article 
on what flowers get you what colors.

HE Caterina
je suis le tenebreux

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	mordants-msg	6