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mordants-msg - 7/30/98

 

Mordants for dyeing. Both period and modern.

 

NOTE: See also these files: dyeing-msg, dye-list-art, color-a-fab-bib, green-art, p-bleach-fab-msg, textiles-msg.

 

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This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

 

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

 

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

 

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Thank you,

    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                          Stefan at florilegium.org

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From: cav at storm.ca (Rick Cavasin)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: dyes and mordants (was Wode) (sic)

Date: 24 Mar 1998 14:20:21 GMT

Organization: Handmade Parchment and Vellum

 

"Trevor Barker" <barkert at delete.logica.com> writes:

 

|> BTW, does anyone have information on period mordants?  Was alum really

|> available (and in which periods?) or was there something else they used?

 

The use of alum dates back to Roman times.  Its availability in Northern

Europe as an imported commodity after the fall of Rome and before the 'high

middle ages' is by no means certain,

but we certainly see references to it in things like the Mappae Clavicula and

Theophilus.  Certainly, once the trade routes were re-established it would

have been available, and references to it's use are abundant.  

Apparently, there are species of club moss that can be

used as a substitute (high native alum content?), and these may have been used

in the more Northern areas when alum was not available as an import from the

south.

 

Iron salts (Roman vitriol, ferrous acetate, etc.) were used as mordants, but

you get dark or 'sad' colours (in particular, they would have been used with

tannins to get greys and 'black').  Similarly for copper salts.  No evidence

for the use of tin and chrome salts in period that I know of.

 

These metallic salts would have been used with the protein based fibers: wool

and silk.  For linen and cotton (where available), mordanting is more complex,

and involves non-mineral agents.  I'm not as familiar with these processes,

as I dye skins (and collagen is a protein).

 

Also, some period dyes were substantive, and did not require mordants.  

Eg.  woad/indigo, walnut hulls, lichen purples

 

Cheers, Rick/Balderik

 

 

From: priest at NOSPAMvassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: dyes and mordants (was Wode) (sic)

Date: 25 Mar 1998 03:33:52 GMT

Organization: Vassar College

 

Greeting from Thora Sharptooth!

 

Balderik (caxv at storm.ca) [hi, Balderik!!!] wrote:

>Apparently, there are species of club moss that can be

>used as a substitute (high native alum content?), and these may have been used

>in the more Northern areas when alum was not available as an import from the

>south.

 

Diphasium complanatum; there's both archaeological and ethnographic evidence

for its use as a mordant.

 

>Also, some period dyes were substantive, and did not require mordants.  

>Eg.  woad/indigo, walnut hulls, lichen purples

 

Saffron also needs no mordant; and then there were the murex dyes, for the

deep of pockets. ;>

*****************************************************************

Carolyn Priest-Dorman             Thora Sharptooth

capriest at cs.vassar.edu            Frostahlid, Austrrik

        Gules, three square weaver's tablets in bend Or

      http://www.cs.vassar.edu/~capriest/vikresource.html

*****************************************************************

 

 

From: "Morgan E. Smith" <mesmith at calcna.ab.ca>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: dyes and mordants (was Wode) (sic)

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 07:10:05 -0700

Organization: Calgary Community Network Assoc.

 

Regarding tin as a mordant in period: There may not be any record of tin

mordants being imported, etc., but there is considerable evidence for the

knowledge and skill of medieval dyers using _the pot_ as mordant. A tin or

tinlined pot would affect the dye in the same way as modern tin mordant.

Iron was also utilised in this fashion.

  Chrome, of course, is another story.

Morgan the Unknown

 

 

From: cav at storm.ca (Rick Cavasin)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: dyes and mordants (was Wode) (sic)

Date: 25 Mar 1998 16:28:53 GMT

Organization: Handmade Parchment and Vellum

 

"Morgan E. Smith" <mesmith at calcna.ab.ca> writes:

|> Regarding tin as a mordant in period: There may not be any record of tin

|> mordants being imported, etc., but there is considerable evidence for the

|> knowledge and skill of medieval dyers using _the pot_ as mordant. A tin or

|> tinlined pot would affect the dye in the same way as modern tin mordant.

 

Would it?  The metallic tin lining the pot would have to enter solution as

a cation for it to act as a mordant.  Something in the dye bath would

have to react with the tin to form a soluble salt.  This is fairly easy with

iron, but I'm not familiar with the reactivity of tin.

 

I would have thought that tin was used to line things like pots and cans

because it is relatively non-reactive, but that's speculation.

 

|> Iron was also utilised in this fashion.

 

Yes, because Iron oxidizes readily, and you can form iron salts fairly

easily with an acidic dyebath.  Similarly for copper I would think.

 

Cheers, Rick/Balderik

 

 

From: tsrra at aol.com (Tsrra)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: dyes and mordants (was Wode) (sic)

Date: 26 Mar 1998 05:20:13 GMT

 

Greg & Robin Kornides <kornides at usaor.net> writes:

 

>What's the difference between the alum that's a mordant and the alum

>that's used to make pickles crispy?  I recall hearing they were two

>different things, but can't remember the details.  Is the mordant alum

>very hazardous?  (it seems clear that pickling alum is safe to eat)

 

There are several different types of alum.  In common useage for protein fibers

nowadays is aluminum sulfate, aluminum acetate is used for cellulose fibers.

Most natural dyehouse suppliers carry potassium aluminum sulfate.

 

As for the period alums, they could have been any number of different ones,

depending upon the local of the dyer and whether or not he had access to

imported alum.

 

Basically, you can mordant with either dyeing or pickling alum. Pickling alum

is generally the same thing as dyeing alum, just in a purer grade that is

classed as edible, or food grade.   Neither are classed as a dangerous

chemical, but it is unwise to breathe in much of the dust in any case.

T S Ohara

 

 

From: "Morgan E. Smith" <mesmith at calcna.ab.ca>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: dyes and mordants (was Wode) (sic)

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:44:16 -0700

Organization: Calgary Community Network Assoc.

 

In regards to the use of pot-as-mordant: I've done it. (My husband's a

goldsmith: metal is easy to come by at our house) Tin (real tin, not pot

metal which is a modern item, or pewter, which is nowadays not the same as

what was found in the past, for safety reasons) can be introduced into the

pot as a solid form, or as part of the pot. See Karen Casselman's "Craft

of the Dyer" (Dover Books) - she discusses this at length. You're quite

right: copper and iron are the easy ones, because they are easy to find

(old pennies, nails) and people may have difficulty finding tin in an

unadulterated form these days. Tin cans aren't tin, but sometimes you can

find tin-lined washbasins etc.

  For copper, I advise caution: not only are pennies made after about 1960

alloyed with aluminium, but copper tends to produce some noxious fumes. As

with all dye-stuffs, you should only work in well-ventilated areas, use

neoprene gloves (NOT ordinary rubber gloves from the supermarket: they

simply aren't good enough, and I don't recommend surgical latex gloves,

for many of the same reasons) and don't stick your head in the pot.

Morgan the Unknown

 

 

From: "sunshinegirl" <sunshinegirl at steward-net.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: dyes and mordants (was Wode) (sic)

Date: 2 Apr 98 06:07:38 GMT

 

Greg & Robin Kornides <kornides at usaor.net> wrote:

> What's the difference between the alum that's a mordant and the alum

> that's used to make pickles crispy?  I recall hearing they were two

> different things, but can't remember the details.  Is the mordant alum

> very hazardous?  (it seems clear that pickling alum is safe to eat)

>

> miriel

 

My bottles say they are the same thing, but the mordant is powdered, I buy

it from a pharmacist, for much less than the grocery store pickling spice.

My book on dying refers to alum as being the safest of the mordants,

besides using an iron pot to dye in.    But all my references to alum say

to also use cream of tartar with it.  What exactly is cream of tartar, and

how was it used in the middle ages??

Melandra of the Woods

 

 

From: tsrra at aol.com (Tsrra)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: dyes and mordants (was Wode) (sic)

Date: 2 Apr 1998 07:41:27 GMT

 

"sunshinegirl" <sunshinegirl at steward-net.com> writes:

>But all my references to alum say

>to also use cream of tartar with it.  What exactly is cream of tartar, and

>how was it used in the middle ages??

 

Cream of tartar is from the white crystalline deposits left in the wine-making

process.  It is an acid, and changes the color of some dyes, particularly

cochineal.

 

T S Ohara

 

 

Subject: Re: ANST - natural dyeing ...

Date: Wed, 01 Jul 98 08:23:22 MST

From: jhartel <jhartel at net-link.net>

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

 

I have been rereading some of the posts on the natural dyeing topic and

realized I threw out a few words that someone unfamilar with natural

dyeing might not understand.    The word that hit me the hardest was

"mordant".  So here goes...A "mordant" is a mineral salt that is used

either in the dyebath itself, or as a pre/post wash of the fibers that

were dyed.  Thes minerals effect the color of the dye and help to hold

the color to the fiber. (wool, cotton, silk, etc...)  I used several

mordants when I dye.  I use alum (kitchen type since I have not found

the other), Iron and copper which I purchased from a dyeing company.

Chrome and tin are other mordants.

The iron content in the water up here in Michigan is pretty high and I

can see where it has effected my dyeing.  While in Texas, I dyed using

dandelion heads  and got some very bright yellows.  I used the

dandelions from here with the same mordants as I used in Texas, only to

have the colors come out a bit more subdued.  It could be from the water

or perhaps the soil differences.

 

Moriel***

[who is "really" starting to wonder about dyeing with that hydrangia

bush...]

 

 

Subject: ANST - More on Dye-stuffs

Date: Wed, 01 Jul 98 12:48:32 MST

From: "Laury Torrence" <J-LTorrence at worldnet.att.net>

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

 

Finally found my snippet of info on mordants for dyeing.

Earlier, 'wolf had posed a question regarding the use

of alum, here's what I found:

 

Mordants- Color is influenced by the choice of mordant. A mordant

(from the Latin mordere, to bite) is used to help "fix" the dye.  Some

common mordants are listed velow; they are available from pharmacies

or dye suppliers

 

Alum - (aluminum potassium sulfate) Often combined with cream of tartar

           gives bright clear colors.

 

Iron - (ferrous sulfate) Dulls and deepens colors and is called a "saddening"

         agent.

 

Copper - (copper sulfate) Used with vinegar, gives a blue-green tint to colors

        It is also poisonous, so should be handled with care.

 

Chrome and Tin - Chrome gives color depth and greater permanence, and

        tin brightens tones.  Again both are poisonous.

 

I think you are supposed to use glass or enamelware basins for your dye

baths, because an aluminum basin would add its' chemical components

to your dye bath even if you didn't want it.  So your stuff would not come

out quite the way you might want it to. Once again I pulled this out of

"The Complete Book of Herbs - a practical guide to growing and using herbs

by Lesley Bremness.  It has a nice helpful section on natural dye-stuffs, with

easy to read and follow instructions.  It also tells you about the types of

colors you get from natural herbs and other plants. Somewhere I have an article on what flowers get you what colors.

 

HE Caterina

je suis le tenebreux

 

<the end>



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