linen-msg - 1/16/08 Period and modern linen. Sources. Care. NOTE: See also the files: hemp-cloth-msg, emb-linen-msg, textiles-msg, velvet-msg, cotton-art, silk-msg, lace-msg, cotton-msg, fabric-ident-msg, weaving-lnks, weaving-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: 15 Jun 92 From: ewright at convex.com (Edward V. Wright) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA Angharad ver' Rhuawn (Terry Nutter) writes: >(1) But for our purposes, it is worth remembering that > lightweight cotton is almost always a substitute for linen anyhow. I haven't denied that, and wouldn't because it's true. Linen is somewhat stronger than cotton and has a slightly different feel, but these are usually not significant. Moreover, I have recently found that some maufacturers are starting to produce "linen-look" materials made from 100% cotton rather than poly-rayon synthetics. As far as cotton being out of period, that's true and it isn't. Cotton was at least known in most of the places and times we recreate, but it was usually quite expensive. Then again, so was silk. Linen, however, was available and used everywhere and, as you yourself noted, cotton is a perfectly reasonable substitute for linen. Moreover, not everybody insists on having exactly the right material for his country and time period. Most people are more than willing to make compromises, such as wearing cotton during the summer, for the sake of health and comfort. -- Nicholas van Leyden From: Brett and Karen Williams Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: [Q]s about Linen Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:48:31 -0700 morphis at niuhep.physics.niu.edu wrote: > I am looking at making a linen tunic and braes, the local > fabric store has hanky wt, lt wt and somewhat heavier wt linen on sale > for $4.00 to $5.50/yd, (44"-47") width. Is this an excellent, good, > modest horrible price? If it is indeed 100% linen, that's an exceptionally good price. I, who I'll cheerfully is a little sheepishly admit own more fabric than I can use even if I did nothing else but sew in my waking hours for the next year, would buy as much of that linen as I could afford. Linen usually runs US$9.00/yd on sale in my local non-discount fabric stores and is more usually $15/yd to $22/yd. I'm in Los Angeles, by the way. WHERE IS THAT STORE?!! ;) > I was thinking of making an undertunic with the lt. wt. > and an overtunic with the heavier. (I am somewhat dubious about > the hanky wt.) The hanky weight would make an excellent light weight chemise or undertunic, or, now that I think about it, a coif for your child or yourself. Linen is not a fragile fiber. > The linen is made in China and labeled "dry clean only". > (also does not meet the requirements for children's pjs :) If the cloth is indeed 100% linen, it's washable. However, keep in mind that any treatment the fabric has been given, and possibly to some extent the dye, may be fugitive upon washing, also the cut edges of the fabric might be subject to raveling in various degrees. It's been my practical experience that linen labelled dry clean only has been finished with a type of chemical size or treatment to keep it relatively crisp. Expect linen to wrinkle dreadfully just from the force of laying on of eyes... :) If you can't tolerate wrinkles and creases in your clothes, linen is not for you. Fabric for children's sleepwear is required to have a chemical flame retardant; I have very rarely seen such on the bolt in a fabric store. If sewing linen (aaaah! love just touching it!), I'd keep a spray bottle of water next to the iron and iron it ruthlessly into submission as the seams were being done. Before cutting into the fabric, I would have stitched the raw edges with an overcast or zig-zag from my sewing machine, then done the process below. I would also plan a good seam finish into the garment to make the finished garment last longer (e.g. I'd leave no raw edges exposed to wear and tear). My favorite 'finish' for a blouse-weight linen garment is to remove it from the washing machine and iron it dry. Yeah, it's *ironing* and requires a bit of pre-planning, however each successive washing and ironing makes the linen silkier to the touch and has the added benefit of keeping it from wrinkling a little less while on the body. A little less. ;) Linen fabric in period was given a treatment called 'beetling', which constitutes beating the crap out of the fabric with a wooden mallet. I ran across a black-and-white photo of an old Irish beetling machine built out of wood done on the cog and triphammer idea a couple of weeks ago. > Any thoughts on why it would be dry clean only? How much > shrinkage should I expect? The hanky and lt wt stuff is white the > other is various colors including a nice green, which I understand > from the archives is a period color... anybody know what other > colors were period for linen? > Robert > Morphis at physics.niu.edu No shrinkage unless the linen is blended with something else. Check that fiber content label again! Upon washing linen the 'hand' might be a little different than that on the bolt, since you might have washed out a chemical size applied to keep the fabric from wrinkling too badly while in shipping and display, or the dye might wash out to an unknown extent. Ah, I love the smell of formaldehyde in the morning... (laugh) If in doubt, cut a piece of the cloth about the size of your hands, stitch the edges to keep it from raveling and toss the sample into the washing machine and/or dryer to see how it reacts to your planned treatment. Linen is well nigh impossible to dye well with natural dyes as the nature of the bast fiber prevents a good chemical bond between dye and fiber. Wool has no such problem. Generally speaking, I would tend to stay away from the colored linens-- however a pastel-ish linen that looks like the color had faded or washed out from a natural color with originally more intensity would be acceptable. Perhaps a light intensity of Saxon green is the green you've described? ciorstan (the current issue of Interweave Press' magazine called SpinOff has an article in it on dyeing Saxon green with woad, with some very good photos of the color on wool) From: capncarp at aol.com (CapnCarp) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: [Q]s about Linen Date: 28 Jul 1997 17:57:22 GMT >ng at making a linen tunic and braes, the local >fabric store has hanky wt, lt wt and somewhat heavier wt linen on sale >for $4.00 to $5.50/yd, (44"-47") width. Is this an excellent, good, >modest horrible price? The price is actually quite acceptable, having been until recently involved in purveying period fabrics, linen being one. > I was thinking of making an undertunic with the lt. wt. >and an overtunic with the heavier. (I am somewhat dubious about >the hanky wt.)> The hanky weight would make a lovely undertunic, just remember to use 100% cotton thread so that the seam will give before the thread cuts the fabric; and, as with all linen, roll/flatfell/French seam it, unless you like the ravelled look. >The linen is made in China and labeled "dry clean only". >(also does not meet the requirements for children's pjs :) >Any thoughts on why it would be dry clean only? How much >shrinkage should I expect? Wash it in hot water(yes, I know, sacrilege, but it's the only way to really pre-shrink it); it will probably shrink about 1 1/2 to 2 inches each direction at least. > The hanky and lt wt stuff is white the >other is various colors including a nice green, which I understand >from the archives is a period color... anybody know what other >colors were period for linen? It's labelled "dry clean only" probably because, if you wash it, you'll find it's not colorfast.(at least the stuff I bought of same description was, years ago.) I'm working on about 4 linen projects for the War right now, myself. Yours, Geoffrey Soulspeeder Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 16:12:03 -0600 From: Karen Harris Subject: Re: [Q]s about Linen Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Robert wrote: > I am looking at making a linen tunic and braes, the local > fabric store has hanky wt, lt wt and somewhat heavier wt linen on sale > for $4.00 to $5.50/yd, (44"-47") width. Is this an excellent, good, > modest horrible price? It's okay, I suppose; the Townsend catalog (http://www.jastown.com) also carries linen intended for 18th and 19th century reenactment groups that does good "stunt-double" work for SCA-period linen, and that's roughly the price of the stuff they carry, too. > The linen is made in China and labeled "dry clean only". > (also does not meet the requirements for children's pjs :) Then it's probably a linen blend, and not 100% linen. I started working with an 18th century reenactment group when I was eleven years old (the Colonial Company of the Claude Moore Colonial Farm at Turkey Run), and _all_ pieces of my outfit (except for the stays I made when I was 13) were made of real 100% made-from-flax-for-reenactors linen. Not only was it machine washable (but I strongly recommend line-drying; it ends up not lasting as long if you dry it by machine), but it's very much up to the flammability requirements for children's pyjamas -- this stuff ain't flammable AT ALL. I'm fairly sure this goes for all linen -- real 100% linen does not burn. Smoulders a bit, but that's about it. If you're the type of person that does a lot of campfire cooking, goes to a lot of outdoor events in the summer, or wants period-looking cloth, I'd strongly suggest putting together an outfit out of this stuff -- it breathes really well (this coming from a kid that spent lots of summers in the middle of a field picking weeds in 2-3 layers of linen garments in the hot July and August summers in Virginia) and looks period in addition to being not very flammable. (I wouldn't say that it's _completely_ inflammable, but you really have to get it into some hot fire before it even starts smouldering.) > Any thoughts on why it would be dry clean only? How much > shrinkage should I expect? The hanky and lt wt stuff is white the > other is various colors including a nice green, which I understand > from the archives is a period color... anybody know what other > colors were period for linen? As always, pre-wash the real linen. As to the stuff you've found in the fabric store, my suspicion is that it's a linen blend. When I was still doing the reenactment work, we had to stick to period dye colors (which we generally did with Rit on the garment once it was sewn together), and there's really quite a good range of colors out there that are quite period. (Fluorescents, generally speaking, are Right Out.) You may want to consider whether your persona would have had those dyestuffs (or the ability to afford dyed cloth) of a certain color available -- throughout most of the period, true black was difficult to manage, for example. > Thanks for any help you can give. You're welcome! :) Yours in Service to the Dream, Karen Larsdatter Barony of Ponte Alto, Atlantia (Volunteer, Colonial Company, 1985-1992) From: tjustus at sprynet.com (T Justus) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: [Q]s about Linen Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 04:28:05 GMT Sounds like you are on to a good deal, if it's labeled 100% linen on the bolt. I bought some fine pink linen from Hancock fabrics a couple of years ago (for a modern blouse) and discovered that printed on the end of the cloth was "Made in China 100% ramie" although the bolt was labeled 100% linen. (Ramie is a vegetable fiber, also known as nettlecloth.) The blouse has worn well, and does not wrinkle as much as linen would. Linen can be sucessfully overdyed. That is, if the fabric is already dyed you can re-dye it a darker shade. This only applied to linen that's been dyed already and has the mordant in it. Wash the fabric first. Rit dye works fine. When dyeing, don't pack the washer too full, and use enough dye for your yardage. That way you can use that deep discounted 100% linen in lime green that no one else wanted... redye it dark green or blue. Stay in the same general color family-- don't expect to change orange to blue. Tracy Justus AKA Clare de Crecy From: nachtanz at patriot.net (Susan and Ken Reed) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: [Q]s about Linen Date: 29 Jul 1997 20:45:31 GMT Karen Harris wrote: > Then it's probably a linen blend, and not 100% linen. I started working > with an 18th century reenactment group when I was eleven years old (the > Colonial Company of the Claude Moore Colonial Farm at Turkey Run), and > _all_ pieces of my outfit (except for the stays I made when I was 13) > were made of real 100% made-from-flax-for-reenactors linen. Not only was > it machine washable (but I strongly recommend line-drying; it ends up not > lasting as long if you dry it by machine), but it's very much up to the > flammability requirements for children's pyjamas -- this stuff ain't > flammable AT ALL. I'm fairly sure this goes for all linen -- real 100% > linen does not burn. Smoulders a bit, but that's about it. > > If you're the type of person that does a lot of campfire cooking, goes to > a lot of outdoor events in the summer, or wants period-looking cloth, I'd > strongly suggest putting together an outfit out of this stuff -- it > breathes really well (this coming from a kid that spent lots of summers > in the middle of a field picking weeds in 2-3 layers of linen garments in > the hot July and August summers in Virginia) and looks period in addition > to being not very flammable. (I wouldn't say that it's _completely_ > inflammable, but you really have to get it into some hot fire before it > even starts smouldering.) > > Karen Larsdatter > Barony of Ponte Alto, Atlantia > (Volunteer, Colonial Company, 1985-1992) Karen, my dear, You have given very dangerous advice. Linen is a cellulosic fiber and has the same chemistry as cotton and ramie and hemp, all other natural cellulosic fibers. This means linen has the same flammability as other cellulosic fibers, all other factors being equal--and we all know how flammable cotton is. I have a M.S. in Textiles and one of my classes for my last semester of grad school was on textile flammability (I did extensive testing). There is NO difference between cotton and linen in terms of flammability and if you read the technical literature on textile flammability, cellulosics are classified as having the same flammability and have been for years. On a personal note, I have a 100% linen gown which I caught on fire at Pennsic about 7 years ago and can show you the burn hole. New linen MIGHT have sizings on it that may retard flammability, but these will wash out in a few washings. Silk and wool, on the other hand, are self-extinguishing IF you remove them from the flame source. However, you can be greatly injured waiting for that to happen, so we should all be cautious around flames regardless of what fibers we are wearing. Please, everyone, linen IS highly flammable! Susan Reed/Teleri Talgellawg P.S. Karen, you can e-mail me privately if you want some references and a more detailed discussion of the factors involved in flammability. -- Susan and Ken Reed AFPOPA nachtanz at patriot.net RK Architects, 900 S. Washington St., Falls Church, VA From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: [Q]s about Linen Date: 29 Jul 1997 19:46:07 GMT Organization: University of California, Berkeley morphis at niuhep.physics.niu.edu wrote: : I am looking at making a linen tunic and braes, the local : fabric store has hanky wt, lt wt and somewhat heavier wt linen on sale : for $4.00 to $5.50/yd, (44"-47") width. Is this an excellent, good, : modest horrible price? It is an excellent price. Not _quite_ a "fantabulous buy the entire bolt and ask if they have more at the warehouse you can re-sell to your friends" price, but definitely good. : I was thinking of making an undertunic with the lt. wt. : and an overtunic with the heavier. (I am somewhat dubious about : the hanky wt.) The stuff labelled as "handkerchief linen" can vary significantly, in my experience. Sometimes it's too loosely woven to stand up well once you've washed the size out of it. But my general rule of thumb is that for actual _underwear_ (i.e., you'll always be wearing something over it except in the privacy of your pavillion) it is impossible to use _too_ lightweight a linen. My favorite period underwear is made from "drafting linen" -- which alas is no longer to be had for love or money -- which is about the same weight as china silk. If your "handkerchief linen" is similar to what I find by that name, it would probably be your best choice for the underwear. (Hint: prewash it once before cutting and then a couple times after sewing the garment, to help get rid of all the size and soften it up. The longer you wear and wash linen, the more comfortable it gets.) : The linen is made in China and labeled "dry clean only". : (also does not meet the requirements for children's pjs :) Just about _everything_ is labelled "dry clean only" these days. My impression from talking to fabric store employees is that it's mostly a CYA measure to protect fabric manufacturers from stupid claims from customers who have no idea what the natural behavior of fabric is. If you want that nice crisp "linen look" that is generated by quantities of sizing, then you either need to dry clean the finished garment or re-starch it every time you wash it. Guess what most people would rather do? My rule of thumb is that if I ever expect to wash a garment, then I pre-wash the fabric exactly the way I expect to treat it later. There are some garments that I don't wash (e.g., brocades, velvets, some silks, anything with embroidery or fur on it) and if they ever got seriously dirty I'd have them dry-cleaned. But as long as you know what changes washing is going to make in a fabric (e.g., you may have to iron it or line-dry it if you want it to lie flat for cutting) then ignore the cleaning intructions. (There are times when I think that all that arcane lore about fabric care will some day only survive among historic costumers.) : other is various colors including a nice green, which I understand : from the archives is a period color... anybody know what other : colors were period for linen? Linen did not hold colors fast very well, so "pastel" colors will be the most authentic approximation of what was available in period from natural dyes. (Modern synthetic dyes get around the problem -- I've even seen linen for sale in "international orange" .) Part of the well-known vestments of the Order of the Golden Fleece are lined with a salmon-pink linen. The Museum of London "Textiles and Clothing" book mentions inventories of linen sewing thread in a variety of colors (unspecified). But there is a reason why "white linen" was the standard for underclothes -- it simply wasn't worthwhile to dye something that wouldn't be seen much and wouldn't dye well anyway. I tend to be a bit forgiving in myself (don't anyone faint now!) of using more brightly colored linens for outer garments when I'm making a California-weather version of a garment that by rights ought to be made out of wool. Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 22:38:46 -0700 From: Brett and Karen Williams To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: irons and linen use/abuse So, we're talking about a particular bast fiber here, which comes in a number of flavors. The most popular, of course, is linen. There's also stinging nettle (Urtica dioica), which apparently makes a silvery-white very fine fiber, finer than linen. There's other forms of nettle, Urtica urens and Urtica parviflora. Ramie is known as Eastern nettle, but its scientific name is Boehmeria nivea, and it is a completely different creature compared to the European/New World stinging nettle. Sometimes imported Chinese 'linen' that's really ramie fiber is sold in the linen section of fabric stores (check that bolt label carefully!). Then there's the political hot potato known as hemp. I was rillyrilly tempted to buy the newish comprehensive linen book a few visits back to my favorite bookstore, but passed it up. Silly, silly me. All that I remember is that its paper jacket was mostly orange-- no memory of title and author. Bad Ciorstan, no bisquit. At any rate, this particular book goes into *very extensive detail* on the processing of linen, from a description, I think, of the flax crop all the way to handling the finished fabric. One of the more interesting processes discussed was an Irish 'beetling' mill, built at least a century back (didn't remember the attributed date), that used wooden water-driven triphammers to beat the bejaysus, as the Irish say, out of a completed linen cloth-- something similar to the triphammer mill used in comparative miniature by the gold mines of the California Gold Rush (anyone ever been to Calico Ghost Town?). The effect on the cloth was to bring out the luster and soft qualities of the linen piece. The machine, for lack of a better word since it has little to no metal, is a bewildering array of rows upon rows of hammer sets. My dim memory of the black-and-white photo suggests that the machine was at least forty feet long, ten feet wide and all hammers along the length. That's a lotta hammers. One of the nice and fascinating things amongst a lot of very nice and fascinating things in E.J.W. Barber's _Prehistoric Textiles_, ISBN 0-691-00224-X (mine's a paperback) is that she describes the basic process of fiber preparation, spinning (and ancient Egyptian linen splicing and plying, not the same thing), and weaving in some detail. She says, in part: "The fibers originate inside the stem of the plant, where their function is to protect and support the channels that carry nutrients along the length of the plant. These fibers, known as bast, occur in bundles of overlapping strands among the sieve (food-carrying) cells. They form a ring around the woody core, and are in turn surrounded by a sort of skin or rind. The 'ultimate fibers' of bast, which are long, thin cells that reach a few centimeters in length and are joined end to end in long strands, aer held together in these bundles by a matrix of pectinous substances. In order to obtain the bast fibers, then, all of these other parts, with the exception of some of the matrix found witin the bundles, must somehow be stripped or eaten away." So, you plant the seeds crammed together as close as you can to get a tall crop (competing for sun against all the neighbors!), yank 'em up by the roots at your chosen point (the younger the plant, the thinner and paler the resulting tow or line; the coarse, strong stuff is an older plant), make the choice to dew-ret (as Barber says, an old causative form of the verb _rot_), or water ret (the first provides a greyish fiber, the latter golden), and keep it from either under-retting (it's a pain later on in the breaking step) or over-retting (weak tow or line). Then the retted stuff is dried, then it undergoes breaking or braking (a specialized tool that beats and/or crushes the unwanted bits out of the retted fiber with extreme violence), and beaten free (scutching). Then it's combed the first time to get all the rest of the naughty bits of unwanted flax-parts out (hackling), then given to the spinner as either tow (the shorter, fuzzier lengths) or line (the longer, smoother parts). A hunk of line linen ready to spin is called a 'strick' or 'hank'; a wad of tow is just a wad of tow, apparently. The most desirable cloth is made from line. Linen twine is usually dry-spun tow. Incidentally, linseed is linen-- and if you're wont to buy linseed oil for painting with oil-based paint, or linseed at the health food store for adding to food (yummy in bread!), now you know where it comes from. Useful plant, hunh? Linen grown for cloth production is not generally allowed to go to seed. Anyhow, then, tow or line can be either dry-spun (which makes a fuzzy thread/yarn) or wet-spun (which makes a smooth thread/yarn). It is mounted on a distaff in one of a variety of ways, and the fibers are pulled or drawn off a bit at a time to make thread. I recall a Grimm's tale in which a young woman who hates to spin and does it dreadfully is kindly rescued from spinning tasks and uncomfortable penalties for failure by a trio of women with three different physical deformities. When the girl's prince-ly suitor asks the women about their deformities, they all give a reason related to spinning. The one that I remember clearly is the woman with a dangling lower lip-- used for years to wet the fibers as it passed through her hands on its way from distaff to spinning wheel. She was wet-spinning line, which, when woven, produces the bestest, smoothest linen cloth preferred for garments. Husband-to-be then loudly declares girl will never spin again until her dying day. Girl rejoices. I digress. Then, once the fabric's woven, the cloth's end-user can affect its finish. There are a couple of physical characteristics of the bast fibers themselves that suggest a particular treatment. Since the structure of the fibers themselves consist of a very tough, long cell stuck together from end to end, one can easily understand why it was popular in ancient Egypt as everyday and wear for everyman. Its very continuous cell structure means it sheds dirt *very* easily (and incidentally, why natural dyes don't take very well on linen cells), sheds a minimum of lint, and since most of the cells are still pretty darn hard, further physical abuse softens them. Evidently the beetling mill actually polished the exterior cell structure of the individual threads of the finished cloth. Clever people, discovering this without the use of a microscope. Throwing linen cloth into a dryer produces, compared to press-finished linen, a mooshier, slouchier, sleazier and wrinkled- and more prone to wrinkle-- cloth. Take your sleazy linen, wash it and press it while still damp, even with a hot iron-- once again you get that cool, crisp sheen. I would encourage linen 'novices' to process two otherwise linen samples through separate finishing treatments and see which one he/she prefers. So, now that I've gotten a bunch of background and semi-related trivia out of my stubbd-ub brain (hayfever time!), I can propose a theory for the process of plate-and-glass-ball method of smoothing linen. Perhaps the plate/plaque was placed under the garment (or inside) and the ball was rubbed/pressed across the plate, sandwiching and scraping the fabric between plate and ball for mooshing under pressure from smooth surfaces. This was maybe the individual woman's beetling mill-- much less efficient and drastic an effect than the mill itself, but I suppose it might have worked in that way. ciorstan Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 18:54:43 -0700 From: Brett and Karen Williams To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: irons and linen use/abuse Linen : Hand Spinning and Weaving by Patricia Baines Hardcover Published by Interweave Press Publication date: April 1990 ISBN: 0934026521 ciorstan From: lynn_carpenter at hotmail.com Subject: Unorthodox Linen Source Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:38:57 -0600 Newsgroups: rec.org.sca I like to use linen for my "underclothes", long linen gowns with tight-fitting sleeves that show beneath my 11th century overgown. I use white figured linen (yes, I know the woven-in designs are not period for me) from old tablecloths I buy at estate sales and auctions. My last find cost me 50 cents at a garage sale for a 70" x 72" tablecloth, but that is the extreme low price--usually they cost around $6 each locally. Please don't go raid grandmother's linen closet. I don't want your blood on my hands! Do test the linen for strength before you spend lots of time cutting and sewing it. I tear-test it right near a hem *after* I've bought and paid for it. Once I didn't do this and my newest shift tore in multiple spots in the washing machine. :( But a well-preserved cloth should handle many washings. They are wonderfully soft after multiple wearings, and yes, they do wrinkle, but the many wrinkles on the sleeves match period drawings, so I don't worry about them. The linen is very slick to sew. I use about twice as many pins to hold the pieces together, and they often slide out. And the hems are ravelly, so you might want to flat-fell them or use a bias-binding tape. Now don't give your great-aunts my email address! Lynn in the Middle Kingdom Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 23:51:44 EST From: Bcbru To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: SCA-ARTS digest 305 << I am wondering if anyone has a good source for linen. >> Maybe this will help. M.J Cahn Co Inc. http://wwwicesinc.com/mjcahn, If you are willing to purchase 10 yards or more they will usually give you better prices. Ginevra Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 06:35:46 -0400 From: Melanie Wilson To: "INTERNET:sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu" Subject: Fraying French seam everything ie sew, cut close to the edge, turn the cut edge into the fold, sew again outside the cut edge, there is nothing to fray that way! or has been suggested whip stitch. Or but better linen with a closed weave, only very open weave linen behaves this way, my better linens don't but I still like to french seam them. One wash should shrink a garment enough, again if it is shrinking alot consider buying better quality Mel Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 07:07:31 -0500 From: Margo Lynn Hablutzel To: A&S List Subject: Flax to Linen I do not know about growing flax, but I did prepare and spin the fibres when doing 19th-Century LH. Here is the process: 1) Clean stalks of debris. 2) Soak for a long time to soften the outer "skin." 3) Let dry. 4) Crush in a "flax break," which looks like a giant scissors-thing of wood, several parallel "blades" that fit together like: | | | | | | | | | 5) Pick bits of stem out of flax and comb through very deadly-looking and SHARP points of the "flax comb" fastened to the end of the "flax break." DO NOT TOUCH POINTS! IT DOES DRAW BLOOD! NOTE: Tangled stuff caught in the comb is called "tow," which is where you get "tow-headed." It can be picked out and combed also but is more work. I don't know if you can use it for rope. 6) Place combed flax on distaff for spinning. 7) Repeat 4-6 as long as necessary, or until you are out of flax. 8) Spin fibre, using water to dampen fingertips and fibre so it sticks together more easily. 9) Weave into fabric. --- Morgan Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 22:08:30 -0700 From: Curtis & Mary To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Fibers to thread > All the postings about hemp, flax, linen, and the like brought a question to > my mind: > > * How are the fibers of these plants converted into thread? > * Are they spun? Yes, fairly easiely > I would appreciate if someone could give a complete description of the process. All of these are bast fibers {BTW flax and linen are the same thing}: pulled from the ground { think hemp is cut since its much bigger and tougher} stacked to dry, retted, that is put into water to rot off the outer layers, there is also chemical retting where strong chemicals take those layers off in a matter of hours / days, water retting, about two weeks. There is also dew retting in damp countries where they are spread over the ground and turned occasionally, this takes something like a month and makes a darker colored product. Pulled out and dried. Then breaking or scutching, basically sort of hitting then scraping at a handful at a time with a blunt board, all up and down it's length, to get the loosened up outer layers off. Then heckling or hackling, drawing handfulls of it through what look like boards with wicked 12 inch spikes sticking up, the hackles getting smaller and finer as you work off the outer chafe and just get to the inner fine fibers, combing and smoothing them. When finished you have a bundle of long fine fiber and a pile of short fuzzy stuff. The long fibers are called line and the short fuzzy stuff is tow. Line fibers can be spun very, very fine. I have used a distaff and spindle and wet spun line flax at over 300 yards to the ounce. [took 1st place at the state fair last year :-)] Tow fiber is spun as you would woolen yarn, and makes a course fuzzy yarn, not as strong as the line and not spinnable as fine. {where did we get tow sacks and tow heads from, do you think?} Caveat if buying fibers. Buy flax line in sticks and use a course comb to finish hackleing it [the commercial stuff still has a fair bit of tow in it] Flax top or sliver [hemp for that matter] is not the same thing. these have been cut to a uniform length and put up ready to spin. There is nothing wrong with them, but the fiber is not as long or strong as the full length line fiber. For the smoothest, finest thread spin all of them wet. That is dipping your fingers in water as you spin and smooth the thread. > * Are these plants hard to grow? It depends on if your climate is suitable. {can't say for the hemp since it's illegal in the US} Flax seems to like cool damp weather at least till it's almost ready to harvest. Then drier is OK. I think I have some directions someplace, remind to find them for you. Mairi, Atenveldt Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 14:05:08 EST From: froggestow at juno.com (Roberta R Comstock) To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Fibers to thread >All the postings about hemp, flax, linen, and the like brought a >question to my mind: > >* How are the fibers of these plants converted into thread? >* Are they spun? >* Are these plants hard to grow? Morgan has given a good description of the process so I won't repeat what she has already said, but add a couple of things to it. All of the mentioned fibers are bast fibers which grow in the stems of the plants, and occasionally in leaves (not necessarily of the same kind of plants). The long soaking, usually for several days, is called retting. It doesn't merely soften the non-fibrous part of the stems, but actually allows bacterial action to rot them. If you wait until they are entirely rotted away, the fibers will be weakened. The way to decide when flax is retted enough is to pick up a stem and rub it between your fingers. The outside of it will feel slimey and will sort of slip away from the fibers. the separation of the fibers from the slime would be very messy and smelly if done while the flax is wet, so it is spread out and allowed to dry before beginning the breaking, hacking and scutching which break and knock the rotted non-fiber part away from the fibers. The long fibers that are placed on the distaff are called line, hence the term linen for the spun thread and woven cloth. Stinging nettles yield another good bast fiber that was often used instead of flax. The nettle shirt of some of the old folk tales was not the prickly uncomfortable thing we associate with nettles, but a fine soft material almost indistinguishable from linen. Ramie is a closely related fiber from an oriental stingless nettle plant. I recently harvested some yucca leaves for basketry. They contain strong coarse fibers that were used by Native American tribes for cordage and twining. I will probably ret some of the leaves and extract the fiber. Many of these plants are easy to grow. When they are nearly dry and most of the green is faded out at the end of the growing season, they are pulled from the ground (not cut or mowed) because the fibers extend into the roots. My daughter once grew some flax for me from flax seed she bought at the health food store. It isn't as long as it might have been because someone who thought it was weeds mowed it down when it got knee-high. It did grow to above knee-high again and has been fine for demos and practicing the processing. I understand fiber varieties of flax would grow considerably taller. You may be able to find (and use) a local native plant that has similar fibers in the stems. Good luck! Hertha Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 11:12:51 -0800 From: Eleanor of Leycestershyre To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Fibers to thread A superb source of information on flax and linen is; LINEN, HAND SPINNING AND WEAVING, by Patricia Baines, B.T. Batsford Ltd. London 4 Fitzhardinge Street London W1H 0AH First Published 1989 ISBN 0-934026-52-1 Distributed in North America by Interweave Press, Inc. 306 North Washington Ave. Loveland, Colorado 80537 This book has history, background, illustrations, and copious information on everything from growing, harvesting, processing, spinning, dyeing and weaving flax into linen. I highly recommend it, and personally don't know of a better book on this subject. You can probably get it through Amazon.Com, or nearly any other bookseller. You won't be disappointed! Eleanor of Leycestershyre Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 17:10:55 -0700 (MST) From: starsinger at webtv.net (theresa sorrell) To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Fibers to thread Another excellant book on fibers is Rita Buchanan's "A Weaver's Garden" or "A Dyer's Garden." The first book deals with descriptions of fibers and how to raise, prepare and use them. The second book deals with growing, preparation and use of dye plants. Both are excelland and both are also from Interweave Press. www.interweave.com will get you their website and access to their in print books and magazines. Starsinger Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 22:00:00 -0700 From: Curtis & Mary To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Fibers to thread > The finished yarn can be a bit stiff, but it softens up with time, > use and washing. My linen book recommends boiling skiens of flax after spinning. I usually use a squirt of Dawn in the first pot and sort of simmer for 30 minutes, take it out, dump the ugly brown water out of the pot and repeat with plain water as many times as needed for the water to be clear. This also helps soften it up. Mairi, Atenveldt Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 08:12:25 -0600 From: "Mike C. Baker" To: Subject: Re: Flax to Linen > NOTE: Tangled stuff caught in the comb is called "tow," which is > where you get "tow-headed." It can be picked out and combed > also but is more work. I don't know if you can use it for rope. I'm not certain about rope either, but memory tells me this was used in quasi-braided form for caulking seams between planks. Either stuff into place with a caulking knife / plastering trowel / etc.and then work in pitch or whatever OR mix with pitch/tar and *then* stuff into place. I have not done this myself -- but Grandad always seemed to have a short length of tow-based caulk in his toolbox, alongside the putty knife.. Mike C. Baker SCA: Amr ibn Majid al-Bakri al-Amra (Steppes, Ansteorra) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 08:37:13 -0800 From: Brett and Karen Williams To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Linen thread "Jerzy A. Brzozowski" wrote: > > Margo Lynn Hablutzel wrote: > > >4) Crush in a "flax break," which looks like a giant scissors-thing > > of wood, several parallel "blades" that fit together like: > > > > | | | | > > | | | | | > > I simply can't imagine this process. Are the stalks put lengthwise or > widthwise on the thing? Does this "flax break" work by lever action, like > a pair of scissors? Yes, sort of. Breaking flax is hard work-- what you're doing is crushing/crunching all of the exterior and unwanted portion of the plant off the central core, which is the desirable bast. Another way to do it is to whack it, repeatedly, with a wooden batten/sword. Rippling or hackling flax is the next step after breaking; you draw the broken stems through a set of teeth to literally strip the broken bits off the bast. Incidentally, do not contemplate stream-retting flax, hemp or nettle. Highly poisonous-- the released toxins will go downstream and poison the local wildlife. I'm told by a reputable weaver/merchant in the UK that getting Real Stream-Retted linen thread is a rarity as the process has been pretty much banned, for good reason. Apparently white linen thread is now chemically bleached rather than processed that way. ciorstan Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 13:41:46 -0500 From: "Gray, Lyle" To: "'sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu'" Subject: RE: Linen thread >Incidentally, do not contemplate stream-retting flax, hemp or nettle. >Highly poisonous-- the released toxins will go downstream and poison the >local wildlife. Hmm, never heard that. Considering that stinging nettles in this area _grow_ around streams, it seems like it wouldn't be any worse than when the nettles die and fall over. The way that I did retting of nettles at one point was to stand a barrel on end, and have water flowing _very_ slowly from a garden hose. The overflow simply wet the ground around the barrel. Of course, that's a comparitively small amount of nettles. >Apparently white linen thread >is now chemically bleached rather than processed that way. Ah, good, someone commented on that, good. I have a reference to linen thread used to sew a book in the 7th-8th centuries, which commented that the thread was very white. I had suspected that this was because of a natural retting process, rather than boiling (I've noticed that boiling tends to darken the fibers, regardless of what you boil in). My favorite sources for bast and bast-like fibers are stinging nettles and common milkweed. Also, if you intend to grow flax for linen, you specifically need _linum usitatissimum_, an annual. Retting was often done by flooding the field where the flax grew, and turning the flax during the retting process. Nettles need to harvested in late Summer/early Fall (wearing leather gloves, of course), but flax would be more likely to be harvested in July, after the flowers have dropped but before the seeds are mature (unless it's the seeds you're after) (cf: John Seymore, _The Forgotten Arts_). Lyle FitzWilliam Bergental, East Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 17:54:53 EST From: froggestow at juno.com (Roberta R Comstock) To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Linen thread On Wed, 4 Nov 1998 08:53:10 -0200 "Jerzy A. Brzozowski" writes: >Margo Lynn Hablutzel wrote: > >>4) Crush in a "flax break," which looks like a giant scissors-thing >> of wood, several parallel "blades" that fit together like: >> >> | | | | >> | | | | | > >I simply can't imagine this process. Are the stalks put lengthwise >or widthwise on the thing? Does this "flax break" work by lever >action, like a pair of scissors? The diagram is an end view of the boards. The one I have seen and used was about four feet long and only had three boards. The lower set is fixed onto a stand much like a sawhorse. The upper set is attached at one end (hinges, actually) by a hole drilled horizontally thorough all the board at the same place and a single rod or long bolt passing through them. The upper boards are attached to a handle at the unhinged end. When not in use, they lie between the lower set, not above it. To use the break, the handle is lifted (yes, it is a lot like scissors action) and the flax (or whatever) stems are placed across the break perpendicular to the boards at some distance from the hinge. We placed a handful of flax on the break, holding onto the end of the bunch so that hand holding on was near the break and the unbroken end stuck out on the opposide side. Then we could work the handle with the other hand and bounce the break up and down onto the flax. Between every couple of strokes, the flax was pulled back so that the breaking action worked up the entire length. Then the ends were switched so we held onto the broken tips and broke the former had grip end of the bunch. The next step was scutching with a wooden swordlike blade, sort of a whipping motion against the bunch (still firmly gripped in the other hand) to knock loose pieces of stem away. The bundle was turned several times (rotated) and then reversed end for end and scutched some more. Hackling over the hackle was done last. The hackle is a board with many long sharp teeth through it. It's kind of like a giant rigid brush with inflexible steel bristles. A friend of mine uses a wig hackle, which is very similar, but slightly smaller. To get really fine combing of the fibers, they could be hackled through a series of progressively smaller hackles. The tow fibers that are left in the hackles can be recovered and spun, but are not as strong or durable as the line fibers. Tow is Not at all suitable for making rope! Hertha Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:08:07 +1300 From: Peter Grooby To: "'sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu'" Subject: RE: Linen thread > The tow fibers that are left in the hackles can be recovered and spun, > but are not as strong or durable as the line fibers. Tow is Not at all > suitable for making rope! What I have heard it is good for, however, is gambason stuffing. Apparently very popular in period. Vitale Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 16:18:50 -0800 From: Brett and Karen Williams To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Linen thread "Gray, Lyle" wrote: > >Incidentally, do not contemplate stream-retting flax, hemp or nettle. > >Highly poisonous-- the released toxins will go downstream and poison the > >local wildlife. > > Hmm, never heard that. Considering that stinging nettles in this area > _grow_ around streams, it seems like it wouldn't be any worse than when > the nettles die and fall over. The way that I did retting of nettles at > one point was to stand a barrel on end, and have water flowing _very_ > slowly from a garden hose. The overflow simply wet the ground around > the barrel. Of course, that's a comparitively small amount of nettles. Well, exactly! ;) Escalate the scale up to that of something capable of producing enough processed flax strick for cloth production, and you get fish kills down stream. I taught a weaving workshop a while ago attended by two ladies who were avid lacemakers; they were aghast at the sheer quantity of linen thread necessary to get the loom threaded. And aghast at my casual attitude about cutting off thrums... > >Apparently white linen thread > >is now chemically bleached rather than processed that way. > > Ah, good, someone commented on that, good. I have a reference to linen > thread used to sew a book in the 7th-8th centuries, which commented that > the thread was very white. I had suspected that this was because of a > natural retting process, rather than boiling (I've noticed that boiling > tends to darken the fibers, regardless of what you boil in). Apparently dew-retting produces a darker, greyer product as opposed to stream retting, which produces a lighter, more silvery product. Also, you can always spread the spun yarn out on clover/grass, which is an effective, if slow, way to bleach linen. Clover is full of oxalic acid, which acts as a bleach. So, the old way of spreading one's linen cloth out on the grass to dry contributed to the whitening of the cloth. Also, I understand that nettle strick is more silvery, as a whole, than flax. Have you processed enough nettle to make any yardage? I'm curious... ciorstan From: Nancy Wederstrandt [nweders at mail.utexas.edu] Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:52 PM To: bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org Subject: RE: [Bryn-gwlad] dyeing linen I found a website on Irish linen that might be of interest to linen people. http://www.upperlands.com/body_lisburn.htm Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 17:21:38 -0500 From: Kat Dyer Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Pennsic and staying cool Dorothy J Heydt wrote: > > If it isn't linen but looks nice, you can always make a > tablecloth of it. Tables won't sweat and polyester will come out > of the dryer or tourney box not needing ironing. A good way to keep linen from not needing ironing is to make sure to prewash prewash prewash... I have found that a lot of the reason that modern linen wrinkles (at least for me) is the sizing that is put in at the factory. Kat From: James Crouchet Date: Sat May 24, 2003 12:01:13 PM US/Central To: bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org Subject: [Bryn-gwlad] Linen On Friday 23 May 2003 08:20 pm, Stefan li Rous wrote: > I'd like to find some linen that is thinner/more open weave than what I > found at silkroad last summer. And cheaper would be nice. The prices at > Pennsic were about the same as at Silkroad, expect for some remnants > of 3 to 4 yards I found. I will caution you that with linen thinner does not equal cooler. I have a handkerchief weight linen shirt and it is much warmer than my medium weight linen shirts simply because of the tightness of the weave in the handkerchief weight linen shirt. The coolness of linen is all about air flow. Ok, so wouldn't a piece of fabric that is thinner AND more open weave be better? Not necessarily. Besides my medium weight (or Judy's linen) shirts I also have a heavier Irish linen shirt with about the same weave. There is no appreciable difference in how warm they are. I also have a lightweight, open weave linen shirt that while it is cooler than the handkerchief weight linen shirt, it is no cooler than the Judy's linen shirts. It IS much more fragile than any of my other linen shirts. My suggestion is to go with a medium weight linen with a simple square weave. I know from experience that twills and other fancy weaves are warmer. Before anyone gets started I tell you now that I will not debate the physics of this with you; what I have said is not based on laboratory data and theory, it is based on direct personal experience. I'll leave it to someone else to explain it. Dore From: robinec Date: Sat May 24, 2003 7:33:35 PM US/Central To: "bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org" Subject: [Bryn-gwlad] Linen You know, if you want cheaper linen that is a touch softer you can always get the linen/rayon or linen/cotten blends offered at local fabric stores. They breathe pretty well (not as well as the 100% stuff, but better than cotton broadcloth). It is not as period, but the rayon blend does not wrinkle and both blends tend to be softer. Sometimes I can find this stuff for really cheap at Joannes or Hancock (like $2.00 a yard) in really ugly colors (seafoam green or bright orange). They do take rit dye and turn out pretty well if you dye them to a better color (orange fabric with dark red dye becomes rust, and the green fabric mixed with blue or dark green dye works well too) However, avoid any other linen blends (like a poly blend) as it will not breathe well at all, nor will it dye well. For 100% linen, it can be softened by putting hair conditioner in your rinse wash, but wait until after your garment is made to do that as it will also stretch and move more after it is softened. The linen is so stiff and scratchy because the merchants put a lot of starch in it to keep it from stretching on the bolt and that sometimes helps in construction because your pattern shapes stay more true than they would otherwise. Old, well worn, and washed linen is some of the softest fabric I have ever handled. For some wider trim selection, check out http://www.calontirtrim.com/ He has some really nice ones. -Robin From: James Crouchet Date: Sun May 25, 2003 4:05:44 AM US/Central To: bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Bryn-gwlad] Linen On Saturday 24 May 2003 07:33 pm, robinec wrote: > You know, if you want cheaper linen that is a touch softer you can > always get the linen/rayon or linen/Cotton blends offered at local > fabric stores. They breathe pretty well (not as well as the 100% stuff, > but better than cotton broadcloth). It is not as period, but the rayon > blend does not wrinkle and both blends tend to be softer. My experience has been different. I have one shirt with rayon in it and I do not wear it because it makes me itch. I have a gray linen/cotton blend shirt and I cannot tell that it is cooler than ordinary cotton. I can;t claim a lot of experience with these; I don't wear them because I do not like how they feel. I do recommend washing and drying linen 3 times before you cut or sew it because it does come heavily starched. Dore From: "ad4na" Date: Tue May 27, 2003 10:40:40 AM US/Central To: Subject: Re: [Bryn-gwlad] Linen > On Saturday 24 May 2003 07:33 pm, robinec wrote: >> You know, if you want cheaper linen that is a touch softer you can >> always get the linen/rayon or linen/Cotton blends offered at local >> fabric stores. They breathe pretty well (not as well as the 100% stuff, >> but better than cotton broadcloth). It is not as period, but the rayon >> blend does not wrinkle and both blends tend to be softer. I personally avoid the linen/rayon blends, the rayon makes them hot. Also, rayon shrinks at a higher rate than does linen, so unless you want to always dry clean that particular piece, make sure you wash it several times in warm water. This will also change the hand of the fabric, making it a little heavier and thicker. Wrinkling is not an issue, as linen has always wrinkled. Cotton/linen blends are very soft, but do not hold up as well as the pure linen. > I do recommend washing and drying linen 3 times before you cut or sew > it because it does come heavily starched. Actually, the starch comes off in the first wash, especially if you use hot water. Flax linen is a very tough fiber and it takes a number of washings to break it down a little. I wash the piece of linen four or five times in very hot water and use Milsoft (an industrial softener available from Dharma) or regular Downy if I don't have Milsoft on hand; dry it on hot between each washing. This not only softens the fibers, but makes your garment very washable. Linen, like a number of other natural fibers, tightens and fluffs up at the same time, changing the hand of the piece. You want to do this before you cut your garment out. Generally speaking, most linen we buy today is flax linen, but there are other types of linen out there. Very often you can find a cotton/ramie blend or straight ramie linen--usually on a bargain table. Ramie is a linen made from the nettle plant. It is period--they made linen out of a number of fibers that we no longer use/cultivate. Modern ramie usually comes from India. It is very scratchy, so I recommend that if you use it for an underdress (kyrtle) or under tunic, that you go completely period and make a soft linen smock to wear under it. Kate -- Nan Bradford-Reid From: robinec Date: Tue May 27, 2003 6:47:12 PM US/Central To: "bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org" Subject: Re: [Bryn-gwlad] Linen I have garments made of 100% cotton (linen look) fabric which breath well, and garments of the linen/cotton blend which breath better, and then 100% linen garments which breathe the best. My rayon/linen garments have never itched (very soft to touch), or shrunk - but then again, I always wash in cold - perhaps an allergy to rayon could explain some itching. I have found that the linen/rayon blend does not breath as well as cotton. The 100% linen will actually wick, which cotton does not do as well in our humidity - ie, it will absorb moisture off your body and dry quickly - wool will also do this which is why it can often seem very cool to wear on a hot day. Especially if the wool is not over-processed making it scratchy. I know, it doesn't seem like wool would be a cool fabric, but it can be. The problem I have with washing the linen before I cut fabric, is once it is washed, and even if I spend hours re-startching and ironing it, the pieces once cut, do not match up together. This was a huge problem when I did Conner's armor last time, where I had 3 layers for each piece and the middle layer was cut on the bias. When I do this with the unwashed linen, it is not nearly so much of a wrestling match on my part. Also, since I wash in cold, shrinking is not much of an issue. Yes, most of the startchy feel comes out in the first wash, but we have distinctly noticed a difference in 'hand' of a garment washed 5 times and a garment washed 10 times, so I think that repeated washing must do something to help make the linen less stiff. I also noticed that the darker colors do not soften as quick as the lighter colors - which is usually true of most fabrics as the dye process for dark colors can cause the weave of the fabric to tighten. -just my personal observations. Robin From: robinec Date: January 24, 2005 8:00:43 PM CST To: "bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org" Subject: [Bryn-gwlad] Linen care - was Of Linen and Gulf Wars I have never had a problem washing or bleaching 100% linen. Over the years I have washed with Tide, Purex and Arm&Hammer depending on my current taste in laundry soap, and when my husbands shirts or armor are particularly smelly, I have even thrown in Borax for good measure. Borax is a water softening agent that helps the water and soap get between the fibers of the fabric to help them do their job better. Vinegar can also help with smelly linen and can be mixed with the Borax safely. Stains and smells generally come out of linen easier than cotton. If you are concerned about using bleach on it (which I have done with good results) you can also wash it with natural bleaching agents like peroxide or lemon juice and lay it in the sun to bleach (like our grandmothers did with their fine linens) - this works wonderfully. I do this sometimes when a wash with a weak bleach solution does not get out a stain, I apply spots of lemon juice to the stains and lay it in the sun for several hours and then throw it back in the wash for a good rinsing. I find bleach destroys cotton sooner than linen, however I don't recommend bleaching any fabric every time you wash, especially if it is not stained - adding Borax to the wash or applying extra soap to your problem spots (like armpits) works just as well. I use bleach as my backup plan, not my primary attack and even then I use a weak solution like 1/2 a cup to a full load of laundry, or by applying it directly to the stain (with a q-tip or the bleach gel pen). If you must bleach, use bleach that is non-chlorine and non-phosphorus (phosphates makes whiter than white blotches in sunlight). Besides, chlorine bleach is very bad to have in your home environment anyway and can cause lots of respiratory problems. NEVER MIX CHLORINE BLEACH AND VINEGAR - THIS CAN CREATE TOXIC CHLORIMINE GAS See this website on dangerous household chemicals - http://www.ems.org/household_cleaners/four.html I am probably sensitive to this since my husband is allergic to some bleaches (particularly the ones marketed as 'color safe'). Now we have all sorts of other anti-bacterial cleaners available on the market so there are plenty of non-hazardous options. As to the comfort of linen - if it is stiff when newly cleaned and dried - throw some hair conditioner in the rinse cycle and it will come out just fine! Softens it up a lot! The linen is both warmer and cooler than cotton to wear because it wicks moisture so well. My linen garments have worn as well over time and lasted as long as my cotton garments. The only downsides I have found with linen are that rust stains (from armor) left on the linen will eventually eat a hole in the weave, if it is dyed linen, you may want to wash it with like colors for a while because it can bleed (use vinegar to lessen this) and finally, I prefer not to put it in the dryer and I always wash on cold so I don't have to worry about shrinkage (but that is true of cotton too). For a regular wear (non-armor) chemise, I would use the lighter-weight linen so it is not so bulky and heavy as the Judy weight. -Robin (who loves linen for chemises and shirts) on 1/23/05 8:18 AM, Amanda Shields at ashields at apple.com wrote: > But when it comes to underpinnings, ummm, while linen is comfy and > period, and all that, I hate washing it all the time, especially in > laundry detergents made for cottons. Don't even think about bleaching > it. Yes, I suppose I could hand wash it in my copious spare time, but > then I remember I lack copious spare time. While linen is great for > outerwear, I'll be French before I wear a chemise that is merely > Febreezed instead of scrupulously clean. So, unless it's an A&S > project, my smalls shall be made of nice, washable, bleachable cotton! > > Anna From: robinec Date: January 24, 2005 10:49:35 PM CST To: "bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org" Subject: Re: [Bryn-gwlad] Linen care - was Of Linen and Gulf Wars As someone so kindly pointed out to me, you also do not want to mix bleach (a basic Ph) with ammonia or any other item that has an acid Ph. This is very very true. I wanted to specify Vinegar though because I was pointing out its odor removing virtue and thought someone might try to mix the two in their laundry all unknowing. Please don't mis-understand my motives, I do use these products, I just think we should be aware of how and when we use them! -Robin From: elizabeth at crouchet.com Date: January 25, 2005 11:31:34 AM CST To: bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org Subject: RE: [Bryn-gwlad] Costuming help :) Linen I find that even the stiff as a board linen, (unless is has been starched that way) will soften up nicely and be quite comfortable after exposue to about 5 or 10 minutes of body heat. I just go ahead and put it on. My shirts are so stiff they can stand on their own if I line dry them, until I separate the sides so that I can put it on and that seems to begin the softening process. Linen also takes starch nicely. I often use a cold water starch solution brushed onto a collar or cuff then ironed to give me that period starched ruffle. This leaves the rest of the garment all comfy. I would be surprised if it was not also done this way in period. I wash all of my linen and only sometimes dry my shirts for convenience. It all lasts a whole lot longer and holds its color better if only line dried. But machine washing is always fine. I can't wring out a as much water as the spin cycle can and the spin cycle does not put undue stress on the fibers. YMMV Claire On 25 Jan 2005 at 0:00, Nan Bradford-Reid wrote: > http://www.dharmatrading.com/ > > Great source for dyes (not natural dyes). You can top-dye that linen > into a color that's period/desirable. You can also remove color > that's too dark and either leave as is or dye it another color. Linen > is sturdy and takes dye extremely well. You need to wash it several > times before you dye it, though, since it comes with a buttload of > finishing starches on it. > > After it is made up into your garment, it is now completely > washable...but only put it in the dryer for a few minutes with a dryer > sheet and then hang while still basically wet. smooth the wrinkles > out by hand. This gets a period finish that's not all bouncy like it > would be if you dried it all the way. > > Kate Edited by Mark S. Harris linen-msg Page 25 of 25