knitting-msg – 8/10/05
Period knitting. Needles. Book Reviews.
NOTE: See also the files: lace-msg, hose-msg, spinning-msg, hose-manu-MA-art, sprang-msg, p-knitting-bib, naalbinding-msg, macrame-msg.
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Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: dafyd at scribe.equinox.gen.nz (Dafyd the Scribe)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Medieval Knitting
Date: Sat, 07 May 94 00:48:46 GMT
Thanks to Luigsech ni Ifearnain (of Calontir) and to Edmund
Tregelles (of the Middle), who answered my original post, which was seeking
others interested in period knitting.
Sorry if my other message caused confusion. I am Linnet of Liddington, who is
borrowing the technology of Dafyd the Scribe.
Also, I am posting to Rialto, as for us this is FREE. Sending private e-mail
is rather expensive for us. Sorry. Hope this will work for you if I reply
this way.
Like you, Luigsech, I learnt to knit at an early age, so I have over twenty
years experience as a knitter. However, I am having to learn the skill of
creating my own patterns, instead of merely following a printed one.
Where to start on medieval knitting... Firstly, I guess, needles. There are no
surviving needles that I know of (or have read about). However, there a number
of period illustrations showing people knitting (most often the Virgin). My
assumption is that needles were made out of either metal or wood, or, possibly,
bone. I feel our modern steel needles are acceptable for knitting with at
evets. (Plastic, however, I do not). For most items, a set of double-ended
needles is the norm. I prefer to use a set of five. Four to hold the stitches,
the fifth to knit with. This creates a nice little box, and means that the
fabric isn't pulled or stretched whilst knitting. I have been asked whether it
just wouldn't be easier to use a circular needle (you know, one of those horrid
things with two ends and a plastic wire in-between.) My answer is that (a) if
I am going to spend time on knitting something I want to do it as authentically
as possible, (b) I could not justify using that method if I was at an event, and
(c) I have never succesfully managed to use one of the things, anyway. Simply
put, I think using a set of needles is far the easiest method.
About yarns used. Yes, woold was often used. But silk and cotton were also
often used. Some items were a mixture of wool and silk. (Haven't yet heard of
a combination of cotton and another fibre). My guess is that the material used
is a reflection of (a) the wealth of the person the article is for, and (b) the
purpose for which it is intended.
ON my original post, I mentioned a book which, so far I have found to have the
most concentrated collection of usable information and pictures. That was A
HISTORY OF HANDKNITTING, by Richard Rutt, Bishop of Leicester, BT Batsford Ltd,
London, 1987. Another interesting article appears in PASOLD STUDIES IN TEXTILE
HISTORY 2 - CLOTH AND CLOTHING IN MEDIEVAL EUROPE, Essays in memory of Professor
E M Carus-Wilson, Edited by N B Harte, and K G Ponting, Heinemann Educational
Books, Pasold Research Fund Ltd, 1983. The Essay of interest to knitters is
no. 19, THE DIFFUSION OF KNITTING IN MEDIEVAL EUROPE, by Irena Turnau. Rutt
mentions her as being an authority in the field of knitting.
Edmund, being a typical fluffy arts person, I typically have 793 different
projects on hand at once. At the moment I am spread too thin to be able to
research any more projects than those currently on hand. However, I am very
interested in period dyes. One of these days I would like to shear the sheep,
spin and dye my own yarn, then knit the finished article. Sigh. If I only I
could give up the day job. Did you know that the unicorn tapestries were
created using the dyes obtained from only three plants? Wow. From Rutt and
other sources I can see that all sorts of colours of yarns were available (and
that socks came in more than just your basic black). My Finsbury flat cap is
knitted in a natural, undyed brown sheeps wool. My pouch in a red and a yellow
yarn.
Anyway, some questions for you both (and anyone else reading this). You may
very well have access to different sources to me. I would like to gain more
information on knitted tapestries. How they were made, any surviving examples,
and so on. I haven't yet found any mention of surviving examples, the earliest
being something around 1781.
Also, our yarns are classified as 2 ply, 3 ply, 4 ply, and so on, some having
names such as triple knit (12 ply), double knit (8 ply), and so on. I would
like to know what your equivalents are.
Anyway, this is quite long enough for now. I'll let someone else get a word
in edgewise. For now, anyway.
Regards, Linnet
+==============================+===============================+
| Dafyd the Scribe | dafyd at scribe.equinox.gen.nz |
| ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | dafyd.scribe at mcbbs.gen.nz |
| Illuminations Unlimited | Fidonet: 3:770/140.4 |
| Christchurch, New Zealand | Telephone: 64-3-355-4082 |
+------------------------------+-------------------------------+
From: sjgg6239 at uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Susan J. Grant)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Medieval Knitting
Date: 9 May 1994 17:57:07 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
dafyd at scribe.equinox.gen.nz (Dafyd the Scribe) writes:
>Where to start on medieval knitting.. Firstly, I guess, needles. There are no
>surviving needles that I know of (or have read about). However, there a number
>of period illustrations showing people knitting (most often the Virgin). My
>assumption is that needles were made out of either metal or wood, or, possibly,
>bone. I feel our modern steel needles are acceptable for knitting with at
>evets. (Plastic, however, I do not).
I use wood knitting needles, made out of black walnut. One local knitting
store sells them. Also, I have found them in at least two catalogs, one
is for Rev. War re-enactors. I expect you could find them in ads in
the knitting magazines (I subscribe to Spin-Off).
>About yarns used. Yes, woold was often used. But silk and cotton were also
>often used. Some items were a mixture of wool and silk. (Haven't yet heard of
>a combination of cotton and another fibre). My guess is that the material used
>is a reflection of (a) the wealth of the person the article is for, and (b) the
>purpose for which it is intended.
Wool comes in MANY different breeds, and there is great variation in
fineness/softness/other criteria within each breed. I certainly expect
that our ancients, who had whole lifetimes of experience, would select
the breed with the properties they desired in the finished process and
spin to order -- woolens, worsted, thickness, twists per inch, and so on.
Silk and cotton, other vegetable fibers, and different wools can be blended
during carding to further vary the yarns and their properties. I would be
surprised if pure cotton were knitted -- it has no elasticity and GROWS
vertically like no one's business. Blending with a little wool would
eliminate this enormously -- and if the carding is by hand anyway (up
with child labor! ;-)) it's no extra work. Silk also is much more
manageable if blended with other fibers. Linen is the only fiber that
I have not heard of being blended -- probably because the fiber length
is so long that it is tough to find wools with similar length (very important)
and desireable properties.
One thing I have learned in just a few short years of spinning and
playing with fiber and researching historical patterns is that
modern fabrics are incredibly simple and boring -- and they have
none of the strengths/wearability or climate adaptations of the
cloth/fiber products found commonly throughout history.
> One of these days I would like to shear the sheep,
>spin and dye my own yarn, then knit the finished article.
An admirable goal. I would suggest leaving shearing to the experts --
it's fewer cuts for the sheep. But whole fleeces directly off the sheep
are really readily available, especially in New Zealand! I have to order
and pay shipping half way around the world for that quality of fleece!
> Did you know that the unicorn tapestries were
>created using the dyes obtained from only three plants? Wow.
Unsurprising but very cool. They knew their dyes and mordants!
>From Rutt and
>other sources I can see that all sorts of colours of yarns were available (and
>that socks came in more than just your basic black).
Yes, sheep come in many shades, from white through all the greys to black,
all the browns with shades in red and orange availble, all natural without
dyes yet!
>Also, our yarns are classified as 2 ply, 3 ply, 4 ply, and so on, some having
>names such as triple knit (12 ply), double knit (8 ply), and so on. I would
>like to know what your equivalents are.
I don't know yet -- I knit my own handspun. I know if you look hard you
can find yarns other than the three-ply that is so common. But within the
three-ply you can get various weights, such as sport-weight, light-weight(?)
and others. I don't know much more.
One question I have -- what are good sources for reading about knitting
in period, especially before the 1550's? Common knowledge here in my
region has it that knitting is just barely period, though some who
have done some reading here say that knitting goes back to before
1000. Any words?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ Susan Grant sjgg6239 at uxa.cso.uiuc.edu +
+ University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign +
+ Alwynne of Rivenstar, Middle Kingdom +
From: sapalmer at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Sharon A Palmer)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Medieval Knitting
Date: 10 May 1994 03:39:27 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
In article <2qlthj$b0l at vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
Susan J. Grant <sjgg6239 at uxa.cso.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>Wool comes in MANY different breeds, and there is great variation in
....
>An admirable goal. I would suggest leaving shearing to the experts --
>it's fewer cuts for the sheep. But whole fleeces directly off the sheep
>are really readily available, especially in New Zealand! I have to order
>and pay shipping half way around the world for that quality of fleece!
Gwennis and I stopped at Midwest wool Growers today and two fleeces followed
us home. Honest we were just going to look around! Really!
An Austalian Merino (maybe a cross) 5" long for $4 per pound. Curly tips
so maybe a first cut. Beorthwine, I will save you some in the grease!
Where shall I send it? (The tips of Merino are _glued_ with
sheep by-product.)
I got a dark brown med-fine fleece for $2 per pound.
(although it isn't nearly so dark now that I've washed it.)
>One question I have -- what are good sources for reading about knitting
>in period, especially before the 1550's? Common knowledge here in my
>region has it that knitting is just barely period, though some who
>have done some reading here say that knitting goes back to before
>1000. Any words?
_History of Knitting_ by Rutt. (from memory) shows pictures of knitted
socks from Eqypt circa 1000, it became known in England circa 1500,
and Italy inbetween.
_98 Pattern Books_ by Paludan & Egeberg "An interesting guide to the location
and condition of 98 original 16th century pattern books for lace, embroidery
and knitting" $30.00 I havent seen this one yet, but it sounds good
Anyone seen this yet?
(Sorry for errors, my editor is flakey today.)
Ranvaig
From: sapalmer at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Sharon A Palmer)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: crochet was Re: COSTUMING:
Date: 22 Oct 1994 01:27:20 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
In article <383r9i$8r at ankh.iia.org>, Leah Jolovich <jolovicl at iia.org> wrote:
>
>I would like to know if crocheted tights would be appropriate (given that
>I don't have access to a knitting machine and consistency is not a term
>to be used for my hand knitting). Does anyone have any comments on this?
Crochet is said to be much later than our period. Check Rudd's _History
of Knitting_ for a date. I think that crocheted tights would give a
_very_ different look. Crochet is more textured than knitting.
Ranvaig
From: sapalmer at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Sharon A Palmer)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: crochet was Re: COSTUMING:
Date: 29 Oct 1994 14:40:39 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
In article <38egud$913 at ankh.iia.org>, Leah Jolovich <jolovicl at iia.org> wrote:
>No intention of flaming or anything here, but even though I cannot knit
>well, I do know a little about it (my mother was superb at hand knitting).
>I don't think it is quite accurate to say crochet is more textured than
>knitting.....would that be plain knit (knit or pearl side), ribbed knit,
>cable knit, seed knit, double knit, etc? Much of the texture of crafts
>such as knitting, crochet, and even macreme comes from the particular
>'pattern' you use, and technique, and type of knot (apply these as
>appropriate to the stated crafts). I feel that the most accurate way to
>interpret this is as a 'caution' sign with reference to generalizations.
No flame taken. I am getting out of my depth on this. Anyone else
feel free to correct me. The purl stitch is late and (I think) OOP
The period pieces I can recall were plain stockinette, sometimes
with colored patterns. I think Elanour of Toledo had knitted lace
stockings. All of this is from memory from Rutt's _History of Knitting_.
(I _have_ to get a copy of this for myself. I _hate_ having my
reference books at the library.)
Modern kntting can be textured, but period knitting (at least mostly)
was not.
Ranvaig
From: jolovicl at iia.org (Leah Jolovich)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: crochet was Re: COSTUMING:
Date: 30 Oct 1994 21:57:25 GMT
Organization: International Internet Association.
: No flame taken. I am getting out of my depth on this. Anyone else
: feel free to correct me. The purl stitch is late and (I think) OOP
: The period pieces I can recall were plain stockinette, sometimes
: with colored patterns. I think Elanour of Toledo had knitted lace
: stockings. All of this is from memory from Rutt's _History of Knitting_.
: (I _have_ to get a copy of this for myself. I _hate_ having my
: reference books at the library.)
Sorry, but this has to be said......I don't think that the purl stitch is
OOP. Why? Because it is the back side of the knit stitch. Simply you
can't do a knit without making the purl on the back and vice versa. Also
you can't make a piece of material without (this is for handknitting)
knitting one way, and then purling the other. All the others mentioned
are just combinations of knits and purls.
Hmm...then again, maybe you could do it all knit, if you have someone who
can knit both right and left, and wouldn't have to turn the material
around. I have not met anyone that could yet.
: Modern kntting can be textured, but period knitting (at least mostly)
: was not.
: Ranvaig
Just my 2 pence.
Hawke
From: ilaine at panix.com (Liz Stokes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: crochet was Re: COSTUMING:
Date: 30 Oct 1994 17:53:40 -0500
"But Liz, the toads are so, so, _hairy_..." " I know, I like hair.
Just get to the quote from jolovicl at iia.org (Leah Jolovich), ok?"
>: No flame taken. I am getting out of my depth on this. Anyone else
>: feel free to correct me. The purl stitch is late and (I think) OOP
>: The period pieces I can recall were plain stockinette, sometimes
>: with colored patterns. I think Elanour of Toledo had knitted lace
>: stockings. All of this is from memory from Rutt's _History of Knitting_.
>: (I _have_ to get a copy of this for myself. I _hate_ having my
>: reference books at the library.)
>
>Sorry, but this has to be said......I don't think that the purl stitch is
>OOP. Why? Because it is the back side of the knit stitch. Simply you
>can't do a knit without making the purl on the back and vice versa. Also
>you can't make a piece of material without (this is for handknitting)
>knitting one way, and then purling the other. All the others mentioned
>are just combinations of knits and purls.
>
>Hmm...then again, maybe you could do it all knit, if you have someone who
>can knit both right and left, and wouldn't have to turn the material
>around. I have not met anyone that could yet.
er, period stockings were knitted in the round on double pointed
needles. No need for purling. From Rutt, p. 23: "Surviving artefacts
suggest that tubular stockinet was the first form of knitting and that the
purl stitch was a later invention. The earliest verifiable purle stitches
are on the stockings of Eleanora of Toledo, 1562 or earlier. There is good
reason to suppose that purling had been used in turning the heels of
stockings earlier than this, but no clear evidence. From the mid-16th
century onwards the purl was used as a decorative stitch - as, indeed, it's
name, often spelt 'pearl', suggests". Apparently many flat pieces of medieval
knitting can be shown to have been made in the round and cut.
-Ilaine
--
Liz Stokes | Hey! Where am I going?
Ilaine de Cameron |
| And what am I doing in this handbasket?
ilaine at panix.com |
From: vinwaluf2 at aol.com (VINWALUF2)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: knitting/commentary wanted
Date: 13 Apr 1995 12:09:06 -0400
Oh, yes, knitting is definitely period. This happens to be my favorite
craft and, thus, an important research project. I happen to be at work at
the moment, and can't easily reach my folders of pertinent photocopies...
However, you may want to track down Richard Rutt's _A History of
Handknitting_ for an excellent introduction to the subject. Also look in
the serial "Textile History" if you can find it; they regularly run
articles on the subject. So does "Thread" and "Pieceworks", tho they
aren't quite as scholarly in their treatment. Look for anything you can
find (articles, etc.) by Irena Turnau, a widely recognized expert on the
subject.
As far as the earliest dates it was known, I've seen a number of 'knitting
Madonnas' (that is, paintings depicting Mary knitting) dating from the
late 14th century. I'm also reading a book just now _Textiles and
Clothing:c1150-c1350_ by E. Crowfoot et al, which is based on
archeological digs done in London. A number of knitting pieces (and I do
mean pieces) have been recovered in these digs, most of them dating to the
14th century.
Hope this is of some help. If there is further interest, I can post more
extensively at a later date.
Gwennan ferch Gwydion O'Ddyved
Barony of AnCrosaire; Kingdom of Trimaris
From: kellogg at ucssun1.sdsu.edu (C. Kevin Kellogg)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: knitting/commentary wanted
Date: 17 Apr 1995 17:20:02 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University Computing Services
mairgret.carrigart at asb.com wrote:
: Hi I've been looking into the subject for some time and have found no written
: sources as yet for really early knitting. However you must consider this. The
: knitting that hit the high society usage ie fancy hose and finely worked gloves
I don't know about written sources, but how about physical ones?
In purusing _The World of the Vikings_ cd rom yesterday, several garments are
shown trimed with material that the notes say is knitted. As this seems to