fabric-SCA-msg - 11/7/94

Finding period-like fabric in the SCA.

NOTE: See also the files: textiles-msg, silk-msg, linen-msg, cotton-art, cotton-
msg, hemp-cloth-msg, merch-fabrics-msg, velvet-msg, weaving-msg.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************

From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Expensive Authenticity
Date: 28 Dec 1993 02:48:14 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Chandra L. Morgan-Henley <ck290 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu> wrote:
>Has anyone else had this trouble with finding real linen?
>Or do you all just grow your own flax, process it, and spin
>and weave it yourselves?  The fabric didn't come with care
>instructions; how should I care for this stuff?  And should
>I wash it before I cut it out?  I have never dealt with real
>linen before and could really use some advice before I waste
>$31.47 worth of material.
>
>Cara The Unbalanced

I haven't had a great deal of difficulty finding 100% linen in the Bay
Area, especially in specialty natural-fiber fabric stores (like
Stonemountain & Daughter in Berkeley, plug, plug). The only major
problem is if you want something really fine (like handkerchief linen).
Ever since they stopped making drafting linen out of real linen I 
haven't had a source for the fine stuff. The prices around here are
fairly variable but quite reasonable if you're willing to wait for a sale.
I generally don't bother to buy linen if it's over $10 a yard. On the
other end of the scale, I picked up some 36" pale blue stuff for $5/yd.

Linen doesn't shrink much, so prewashing isn't as vital as with some
fabrics (though since yours has some cotton content it's probably a Good
Idea). Most linens that you can find these days are a fairly loose weave
so some sort of finish on the raw edges is advisable. Beyond that, treat
it pretty much as you would cotton.

Raw silks are also quite plentiful and cheap around here, but I haven't
yet found evidence for anything similar in period in Europe. Any one else?

Keridwen ferch Morgan Glasfryn


From: sapalmer at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Sharon A Palmer)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Expensive Authenticity
Date: 23 Dec 1993 14:49:45 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University

ck290 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Chandra L. Morgan-Henley) writes:
>I had some trouble finding real linen.  Apparently 99% of the
>"linen" that is sold in U.S. fabric stores is a polyester/
>rayon blend with not a speck of real linen in it.  I finally
>found a blend that is 50% linen, 30% cotton, 20% polyester,
>for $8.99 a yard.  Ouch.  But I did spend it.  $31.47 (and I
>sure hope it will be worth it!).
>
>Has anyone else had this trouble with finding real linen?
>Or do you all just grow your own flax, process it, and spin
>and weave it yourselves?  The fabric didn't come with care
>instructions; how should I care for this stuff?  And should
>I wash it before I cut it out?  I have never dealt with real
>linen before and could really use some advice before I waste
>$31.47 worth of material.

In general, before you cut treat the fabric as you will clean
it later.  If you plan on washing the linen later, wash it now
even two or three times, in Hot water, even if you will wash it
cold later.  You want it to do all its shrinking before you cut
it.

Yes real linen is hard to find.  Technically linen is a type of
weave, the kind used for, well, linens.  In period there were
flax linens, nettle linens, hemp linens (try growing a patch
of _that_ in your backyard), and probably others.

Most of the 100% linens that I have seen are around $25 per yard.
And often they are heavy "suitweight", not what you want
for a chemise.  I have found raime/cotton and linen/cotton
blends on sale for around $4.  Ramie is a type of nettle.
It is not exactly a period fabric, at least not in the west,
but is a natural fiber and a good substitute.

Anyone know a source for _cheap_ 100% linen for chemises or
shirts?  There ought to be enough demand in SCA to bulk
order.  I saw 100% linens at a Russian store last year,
in embroidered blouses and table linens, very cheap.
I suspect the high prices in fabric stores are because
low volume, not higher cost of the raw material.  Flax
for spinning isnt that expensive, and most of the work
has already been done.

But real linen is increadibly comfortable.  No matter how
hot it feels cools to the touch.  It never gets damp and 
clingly like cotton will.  One of my best finds
linen on the $2 table at Hancocks.  A strange blue-green-
grey color, but still linen.  Too worn out to be seen in
public anymore, but I'm wearing it now.

Ranvaig


From: DDF2 at cornell.edu (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Expensive Authenticity
Date: 23 Dec 1993 15:26:39 GMT
Organization: Cornell Law School

sapalmer at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Sharon A Palmer) wrote:
> Most of the 100% linens that I have seen are around $25 per yard.
> And often they are heavy "suitweight", not what you want
> for a chemise.  I have found raime/cotton and linen/cotton
> blends on sale for around $4. 

...

> clingly like cotton will.  One of my best finds
> linen on the $2 table at Hancocks.  A strange blue-green-
> grey color, but still linen.  Too worn out to be seen in
> public anymore, but I'm wearing it now.

I think our record is $1/yard, off the bolt, in New Orleans about ten years
ago. Black, which we bought, and a rather unpleasant mustard yellow are the
colors I remember; I think Terry Nutter, who also lived in New Orleans at
the time, got some too.

My impression is that if you go to good fabric stores in cities with fabric
districts, such as Boston and New York, you can often find either pure
linen, linen silk, or linen cotton blends in the $2-$5/yard range.
-- 
David/Cariadoc
DDF2 at Cornell.Edu


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Expensive Authenticity
Date: 23 Dec 1993 17:13:24 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Chandra L. Morgan-Henley <ck290 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu> wrote:
>Has anyone else had this trouble with finding real linen?

No, but I live in the Bay Area where there are many good fabric
stores.  It _is_ pricey.

>...  The fabric didn't come with care
>instructions; how should I care for this stuff?  And should
>I wash it before I cut it out?  ....

It wouldn't hurt to wash it; linen doesn't shrink but it's good to
wash the sizing (if any) out before you start.  Take your piece of
linen and put a narrow hem on each cut edge (use the machine) before
you wash it, so it won't ravel.

Linen is tough.  You can machine-wash it and it won't mind--at least,
not for the first twenty years or so.  _Old_ linen needs to be hand-
washed.  It will soften gracefully over the years.

Linen will take heat; that's why the "linen" setting on an
electric iron is fairly high.  LINEN WRINKLES A LOT.  Fortunately,
the wrinkles also iron out fairly smoothly.  But you will iron it
every time you wash it, and little pressings in between wearings (if
it's say, a veil that you don't have to wash each time you wear it)
will help.

Linen is good in hot weather; it's a marvelous perspiration wick.
I am overweight and have trouble with hot weather, so I just about
live in a (one of several) white linen undertunic and a black linen
overgown.

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin		Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West			UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable		djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Expensive Authenticity
Date: 23 Dec 1993 17:17:54 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Sharon A Palmer <sapalmer at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>Anyone know a source for _cheap_ 100% linen for chemises or
>shirts?  There ought to be enough demand in SCA to bulk
>order.  

Cheap, no.  But there is a mail order house called Herrschner's that
sells "handkerchief linen" from Poland.  It's lightweight and suitable
for chemises.  But it's about thirteen bucks a yard.  Still, if you
live in Buffalo Crotch, N.D., and the nearest fabric store is fifty
miles away and doesn't know that there is any other kind of fabric
than polyester, Herrschner's is better than nothing.  (I'll see if I
can find the catalog and post the address.)  Be advised, though,
that _most_ of what they sell is horrid pre-printed pillowcase kits
and stuff for cross-stitch on plastic canvas.

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin		Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West			UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable		djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu


From: sclark at epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Expensive Authenticity
Date: 23 Dec 1993 16:41:33 -0500
Organization: EPAS Computing Facility, University of Toronto

Greetings....
	Cara, part of your problem may be that this isn't
really linen season.  Try in a couple of months when the fabric
stores start bringing out their spring/summer stock.
	The Toronto stores I frequent carry linen year-round. But that's
Toronto for you.  I was just down in Columbus--no linen in sight, though
I did see some real ugly green cotton-linen blend in the back of one
of the stores.
	If you wanna find linen in December, I suggest you get away
from chain stores (which stock merchandise seasonally) and check with
privately-owned, smaller stores.  It'll help if you live near a
fair-sized city.
	One note: 100% linen can be expensive.
Cotton linen blend is a fair substitute--you're still dealing with all
natural fibers and the look is about the same.  Also a wee bit easier
to dye with natural materials (or so I'm tokld...)

Cheers!
Nicolaa/Susan
Canton of Eoforwic
sclark at epas.utoronto.ca


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: dillon at world.std.com (John T Dillon)
Subject: Re: Expensive Authenticity
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1993 07:03:39 GMT

Real Linen is available, you simply have to shop one of the non-chain
fabric stores and look real hard.  The better fabric stores usually carry
an assortment of dull earth tones as well as one or two brighter colors.
There is often a 100% cotton linen-like weave available.
Unfortunately the linen price ranges from $10.00 to $35.00 a yard.
The cotton ranges from $3.00 to $10.00 a yard.
   (prices are based on an informal survey of New England fabric stores.)

Now, why pay retail???
Instead pick up the yellow pages and look for a linen rental service in 
the area.  Many of them will still have some old linen sheets/tablecloths
in use.  As these wear/stain they are often thrown out.  Offer them a
small sum and see what you can negotiate.  You get incredibly soft linen,
they get something for garbage.  Then just start experimenting with
various dye lots.

John McGuire


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Appropriate fabric fo
From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 08:47:03 EDT

moreta at prostar.com (Moreta) writes:
> Being the subject is fabric, are there any mail order or otherwise
> outlets, wholesale even that have cataloges?  Discounted fabrics etc..
> Also what about wool outlets, ie scottish wools etc.. I know of one or
> two places that have more of the party type materials.. deffinately not
> appropriate for garb.. (I really don't believe that fushia hot pink
> would qualify as period anything.. sept for the 1990's ;> )
> Mo
	Get a copy of the trade publication SEW NEWS, available in most
cities and many upscale rural-area fabric shops. Their advertisers include
dozens of mail-order fabric sources. Thai Silks has some great stuff but
much _severely_ OOP as well; Natural Fabrics Club ditto, and good discounts/
sales every few months.
	IF you are already a good judge of accurate/inaccurate fabrics,
and are _serious_ about going mail-order, try Gohn Bros., Box 111, 105 
So. Main St, Middlebury, Indiana (46540). Send your address, clearly printed 
or typewritten, and 1.00 for a marvelous, but unillustrated, circular
of goods intended for the Amish and Mennonite trades. Please remember they 
aren't set up for our flavor of crazy, and can't cope with a flood of
just-for-curiosity requests. (On the other hand, they have cotton long 
stockings at the highest quality and lowest price (3.98) of any source I 
know of. Buy the white and dye them.)
				Good luck and good hunting-
				(Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F.
				Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf, C.O.L.SCA


From: priest at vaxsar.vassar.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Early Period Silks
Date: 20 Sep 94 10:25:56 +1000
Organization: Vassar College

Greeting from Thora Sharptooth!

I missed the original post on this subject, but saw this reply.  Tangwystyl
(hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu ) wrote:

>Brent Kellmer (kellmer at u.washington.edu) wrote:
>: Just a quick question:  
>
>: What types of silks would have been available during the 9th and early 
>: 10th centuries?  Commerce with Byzantium would have been common where I'm 
>: looking, so silk access isn't a problem.  I'm also not looking so much at 
>: the historical aspect (although that is interesting enough), but rather 
>: at the costuming aspect.

It depends somewhat on what your persona is, or what look you're trying to
re-create.  In my culture (Viking-period Scandinavian) explicit types of
Byzantine silks can be demonstrated to have been used for a few specific
purposes.  In the nearby cultures (Anglo-Saxon, Frisian, Frankish), slightly
different uses were no doubt the norm.  If you're talking about southern or
Eastern Europe outside the Rus culture, or the Church, I wouldn't want to
speculate.

>(research project queue #275: look into the correlation between period 
>silks and currently available fabrics)

This is near the TOP of my queue.  My general rule of thumb is to match the
texture first (I like rayon challis for a shiny twill texture, but real silk is
of course always preferable), then look for a pattern that's appropriate.  Of
course, that's only until my apprentice finishes figuring out how to weave the
stuff.... ;>

As always, references (or, in this case, suggestions for illustrations of silks
from the ninth and tenth centuries) upon request.

****************************************************************************
Carolyn Priest-Dorman			Thora Sharptooth
Poughkeepsie, NY			Frosted Hills ("where's that?")
priest at vassar.edu			East Kingdom
            Gules, three square weaver's tablets in bend Or
****************************************************************************


From: Blktauna at netaxs.com (Blktauna at netaxs.com)
Date: 16 Sep 94 21:32:09 -0500
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: early period silks
Organization: Fidonet: The Black Cat's Usenet <=> Fidonet Gateway 

From: blktauna at Netaxs.com (Donna Bowers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts

Brent Kellmer (kellmer at u.washington.edu) wrote:

: What types of silks would have been available during the 9th and early 
: 10th centuries?  Commerce with Byzantium would have been common where I'm 
: looking, so silk access isn't a problem.  I'm also not looking so much at 
: the historical aspect (although that is interesting enough), but rather 
: at the costuming aspect.

The pertinent question is, where do you live, fellow silk addict? If you 
can do mail order, that is one thing, but if you require a local store 
that can be difficult.

: I'm certain that raw silk would have been commonly available (is this 
: true?), and of course silk damasks.  But how about that "silky" oily 
: stuff that occupies most of the silk section in fabric stores?  I'm 
: trying to work on garb for 12th night.

: Any help would be wonderful.

: --Sasha
:   kellmer at u.washington.edu

Precisely what do you mean by "oily"? I'm none too sure that I would like 
that on me....;)
Since you seem to be of Eastern origin, I can help somewhat. A silk 
damask would be the fabric of choice for any upperclass individual of Rus 
or Polish areas. A richly colored silk broadcloth would be a good choice 
for middle class. I can guess that you mean charmeuse when you talk about 
oily stuff. I have been told that it is period but I have no time period 
for it's use. I use a finely woven raw silk, simply because it is easy to 
obtain. Actually it is not totally correct for me, but until I can afford 
heavy silk twill and brocades, it will have to do. You can not fail with 
a plainweave as fine as you can find.
Then we get to color choice. The best thing to do is go to the library 
and check out the natural dye books. They will give you a handle on color 
intensity and variety. Pick one you like and match from there...
Good luck

Tauna
---------
Fidonet:  Blktauna at netaxs.com 1:109/42
Internet: Blktauna at netaxs.com


From: blktauna at netaxs.com (Donna Bowers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: early period silks
Date: 30 Sep 1994 16:54:52 GMT

Anne Reynolds (apr at fc.hp.com) wrote:
: I believe at one point Tangwystl (I hope I'm not mis-atributing the
: question) asked "is the stuff I buy in the store, called China Silk,
: similar to any medieval silk?"  Does anyone have an answer to that
: question?  What I can get locally is China Silk and Silk Charmeuse.
: Are either of these close to a period material?

: Thank you for the help,
: Rashiqah bint Azhar

I have been told that the chila silk is indeed something to buy in vast 
quantity. The verdit is not in on the charmeuse

Tauna

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	fabric-SCA-msg