dyeing-msg - 3/19/08 Dyeing techniques and discussion. Both modern and period dyes. NOTE: See also the files: green-art, mordants-msg, washing-msg, woad-msg. KEYWORDS: dyes dyeing medieval mordants woad indigo madder saffron lichens techniques overdyeing ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: lisch at mentor.com (Ray Lischner) Date: 17 Jan 90 22:14:29 GMT Organization: Mentor Graphics Corp., Beaverton, OR Newsgroups: rec.org.sca My lady wife, aoibhinn ni luan, recommends "A Weaver's Garden," by Rita Buchanan (1987, Interweave Press, ISBN 0-934026-28-9). A Weaver's Garden covers the use of plants in fabric making, including dyeing. The time period covered includes the SCA period, and more. Included are some color pictures of the results, showing that diverse, bright colors can be obtained from period dyes. Not all natural dyes are period, and Ms. Buchanan mentions the history of the plants and their uses. There are also chapters on using plants for cleaning, plants as used in tools (such as Fullers' Teasle for carding wool), and making your own garden. The references and suggested readings include technical articles for those who are interested in chemistry. -- Ray Lischner UUCP: {uunet,decwrl}!mntgfx!lisch From: DICKSNR at qucdn.queensu.ca ("Ross M. Dickson") Date: 20 Jan 91 18:16:00 GMT Greetings to the Rialto from Sarra Graeham, courtesy of Lord Angus: In Digest v.4 no.25, Herr Peder Klingrode (Leif Euren) writes: > In fact, in the early Middle Ages, blue dye for textiles were hard > (not to say impossible) to get, while green was easy to come by; while > quite the opposite was true for paints. Thus, a person with a Azure > coat-of-arms wore a green tabard and flew a green flag: the colours > were considered equal. My knowledge of the several technologies that Herr Peder brings together here are not perfect, but my gut reaction is that this statement is an example of modern misunderstanding of period technologies. First off, it is my understanding that the woad plant, which produces a dye chemically identical to indigo, was available and used as a dye in the British Isles from well before the Roman times. (Can someone correct me on this? I have references to it being used as a pigment from the 9th C.) I'm sure that woad or indigo, indigo having been imported since at least the first Crusade, was used in the Bayeux Tapestry to produce a slightly greenish -- but unmistakable -- blue. Furthermore, most blue pigments available for painting at that time -- indigo, azurite, copper blues -- had more or less greenish casts, so a greenish-blue dye would not be con- sidered out of place. So-called azure or ultramarine blue, made of ground and processed lapis lazuli, could not be manufactured in Europe until the 13th C., and was an imported luxury until that time. Secondly, "coats-of-arms" as such did not really exist until the mid to late 12th C. Admittedly, great lords probably had battle flags and livery colours before then, but not in the same profusion. (Perhaps one or more of the heralds on the net could provide better information.) By the 12th C., indigo dye was available all over Europe. In fact, I have been told by dyers that good greens are much harder to get than blues, given the availability of indigo, and indigo dye with an overdyeing of yellow is necessary to be able to make the best greens. Herr Peder (or anyone else who might be listening), do you have more evi- dence to support your statement? My case is merely circumstantial, and I would happily be corrected by someone who knew better. Sarra Graeham, Canton of Greyfells | Heather Fraser Barony of the Skraeling Althing | Kingston, Ontario, CANADA Principality of Ealdormere, Midrealm | c/o dicksnr at qucdn.queensu.ca From: pears at latcs1.oz.au (Arnold N Pears) Date: 21 Jan 91 05:52:43 GMT Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia timm at hoss.unl.edu (Tim Myers) writes: >everyone. Then we hit upon an idea, DMC floss is very consistent in its >colors and numbering scheme, and you can find DMC floss all over the place. >What would happen if kingdom level sewing guild got together with the >current royalty and heirs and decided what OFFICIAL CALONTIR PURPURE AND OR >were? Especially since there was a request a twelfth night for more Calontir >fighting tabards. Wouldn't it be nice if they all looked the same? While the idea of uniformity is attractive to the modern eye, I suspect that in the SCA period, even if you take it to extend from 600-1650AD, the colour of cloth would have varied considerably from batch to batch. The dyeing of cloth with natural dyes is a complex task, and fixing some of the more rare colours, such as purple, made them expensive during the mediaeval period. I find it difficult to believe that any group prior to the 18th century would have placed much importance on the exact shade. To do so would require the establishment of uniforms and hence bulk production of cloth for a specific purpose, which to the best of my knowledge is really outside the scope of the recreation. I suggest you all just buy local purple, as you would have done in the period, and pride yourselves on the period look of your soldiery. Lord Arenwald von Hagenburg ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Arnold Pears. Computer Sci Dept ACSNET : pears at latcs1.oz La Trobe Uni, Bundoora 3083. VIC, AUSTRALIA "Well here we all are then." Ph (03) 479-1144 -ME ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: bloch at thor.ucsd.edu (Steve Bloch) Date: 21 Jan 91 07:37:19 GMT DICKSNR at qucdn.queensu.ca (Ross M. Dickson, really Sarra Greaham) writes: >First off, it is my understanding that the woad plant, which produces a >dye chemically identical to indigo.... "Blue may be dyed with woad alone, which would give a permanent but not a deep blue; but if indigo be mixed with it, a very rich colour will be obtained." "Take a quarter of a pound of indigo, half a pound of pot ash, a quarter of a pound of madder, and three handfuls of bran: let them boil for half an hour, and then settle; with this ley grind the indigo in a copper bowl: put this in an old vat of indigo, or on a new one of woad, and it will make it fit for use in twenty-four hours." >Furthermore, most blue pigments >available for painting at that time -- indigo, azurite, copper blues -- >had more or less greenish casts, so a greenish-blue dye would not be con- >sidered out of place. "Receipt to dye 8 lbs. of Deep Blue in Linen or Cotton. Take 4 ounces of indigo and grind fine, 2 ounces of madder, 8 ounces of copperas, 8 ounces of pot ash, 4 ounces of lime, and 1 ounce of alum: mix it all together with 5 gallons of soft water...." >In fact, I have been told >by dyers that good greens are much harder to get than blues, given the >availability of indigo, and indigo dye with an overdyeing of yellow is >necessary to be able to make the best greens. "To dye Cotton Yarn a Deep Blue. Take one pound of logwood chipped fine or pounded and boil it in a sufficient quantity of water till the whole colouring matter is extracted, then take about half a gallon of this liquor and dissolve it in an ounce of verdigris ... or if you want an elegant green, boil hickory bark in the liquor and it will produce it." "Saxon greens" are produced by dying with indigo sulphate after a tin-and-oak-bark mordant. Three other greens, however, are described as a blue dye followed by a yellow, or vice versa. All quotations are taken from "The Arcana of Arts and Sciences", by M. Parker; this is a primary source, but only from 1824, and written in the U.S. so some of the plants may not exist in Europe. -- Stephen Bloch Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib >sca>Caid>Calafia>St.Artemas bloch at cs.ucsd.edu From: leeu at alex.stacken.kth.se (Leif Euren) Date: 21 Jan 91 09:02:09 GMT Organization: The Internet Berengaria (<well!jeannec at apple.com> (Jeanne C. Stapleton)) writeth: > ... I like the idea of telling people to match to a particular color > of DMC embroidery floss. Reason: have you ever looked through your > kingdom's regalia? There are several sets of surcoats/cloaks/etc. > in the West Kingdom Regalia, most of which never get worn, largely > because a hideous shade of green was used in their construction. It's sad to see regaila unused, beacuse our modern eyes think the colours are "hideous". On the other hand: people in the Middle Ages would have loved yarn and cloth of consistent colour. > Think how much easier looking for "DMC #345" would be for local > costumers trying to make surcoats for members of their shire or barony > who were to be part of a kingdom levy or shieldwall. The color would > be instantly identifiable to anyone glancing around as "part of my unit". As it were (and this is my speculation) they reduced the numbers of heraldic colours to allow for deviation, so that and soldier could tell a friend, even if he had changed to a new tabard. Thus, I don't see any fault in recommending a shade-by-number for "official" items; be it paint, dyed textile or others. We shouldn't make it a law, though. Elaine NicMaoilan (<trifid at agora.rain.com> (Edward Fitzgerald)) writeth: > ... I find it hard to believe consistency was not possible, within > reason, in period! (Not perfect matches, perhaps, but close enough > for the casual observer to not see a glaring difference....) Surely > weavers traded formulae and hanks of threads as samples? Consistency in shade of colour is *VERY* difficult to obtain if one has to resort to plant-dying, even in our Current Middle Ages, when we in fact know how to make pecise records of previous dyings. And in the real Middle Ages, dyers did *NOT* trade their formulaes, as they were their wealth. But the again, shades "close enough for the casual observer to not see a glaring difference" would be the pride of every master dyer, and they certainly did appear during the Middle Ages. Herr Peder Klingrode +---------------------------+ Canton of Holmgard | Leif Euren | Barony of Nordmark | | Principality of Drachenwald | leeu at alex.stacken.kth.se | Kingdom of the East +---------------------------+ From: leeu at alex.stacken.kth.se (Leif Euren) Date: 21 Jan 91 17:55:42 GMT Herr Peder Klingrode greets all Gentle of the Rialto: Frid vare med Eder! Lord Arenwald von Hagenburg (pears at latcs1.oz.au (Arnold N Pears)) writeth: > I find it difficult to believe that any group prior to the 18th > century would have placed much importance on the exact shade. So do I, but I also argue that a person who could afford to outfit his entire staff in a uniformly coloured livery, would do so to show off his wealth: everybody could see that he had bought all that fabric at the same time! Sarra Graeham (Heather Fraser) writeth: > ... the woad plant, which produces a dye chemically identical to > indigo, was available and used as a dye in the British Isles from well > before the Roman times. And it was used in Scandinavia, too, in the 10th C. > I'm sure that woad or indigo <...> produce a slightly greenish -- but > unmistakable -- blue. Depending of what kind of metal the kettle is of, you may get many strange shades when dying with indigo. > In fact, I have been told by dyers that good greens are much harder to > get than blues, given the availability of indigo, and indigo dye with > an overdyeing of yellow is necessary to be able to make the best > greens. If you (or rather, the dyers) by "good greens" mean "_beautiful_ greens", you're absolutely right. And this is not even subjectively: everybody (well, _almost_ everybody) will admit that yellow over- coloured with indigo is more beautiful than naturally dyed green. > Herr Peder, do you have more evidence to support your statement? I'm sorry to say that I no evidence for my statements; it was just something I read in a book on Heraldry, and I don't even remember which (I'll have a look in my library, and I'll be back with a reference if I find one). I, too, would happily be corrected by someone who knew better. > ... ground and processed lapis lazuli, could not be manufactured in > Europe until the 13th C. I don't really believe you. But then again, I may be wrong. Could you explain why this was so? Herr Peder Klingrode, Canton of Holmgard | Leif Euren Barony of Nordmark | Stockholm, Sweden Principality of Drachenwald, East | leeu at alex.stacken.kth.se From: Chaz Butler To: "Ross M. Dickson Date: 23-Jan-91 04:59pm Subject: Re: 'official' colors There is a woman at Pennsic every year with a dyer's wheel. This has formula from plants native to Britain and Europe fixed with various mineral salts. The colors range from 5 shades of magenta, through hot pinks, bright oranges, lime and electric greens, vivid blues, indigos, electric blues, and deep purples, as well as browns and puces. If she, with only a couple of years of experimenting with plants native to Europe and a dyer's cloth can come up with many shades, and duplicate them, then the dyers of Europe surely did the same. From: haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock) Date: 22 Jan 91 18:39:04 GMT Organization: DECwest, Digital Equipment Corp., Bellevue WA In article <9101210902.AAalex.stacken.kth.se22365 at alex.stacken.kth.se>, leeu at alex.stacken.kth.se (Leif Euren) writes: > Berengaria (<well!jeannec at apple.com> (Jeanne C. Stapleton)) writeth: > > ... I like the idea of telling people to match to a particular color > > of DMC embroidery floss. > > Elaine NicMaoilan (<trifid at agora.rain.com> (Edward Fitzgerald)) writeth: > > ... I find it hard to believe consistency was not possible, within > > reason, in period! > > But the again, shades "close enough for the casual observer to not see > a glaring difference" would be the pride of every master dyer, and > they certainly did appear during the Middle Ages. I have seen the effects of dying a series of hanks in the same dye bath, they all came out a different shade and the dyer admitted that predicting the shade was next to impossible. I take this as evidence that reproducing a shade was and is so difficult as to be futile to attempt. A close match should be fairly simple, provided that only one dye bath is needed. Overdying such as has been mentioned for green would make a close much very difficult. The next thing to remember is that period dyes are rarely 'fast'. Most dyes will fade in the sun, leach in the washing and bleed into the adjacent cloth. A set of tabards will age the same only if they were all made of the same materials, dyed using the processes. Given the multitude of processes to obtain specific colours, and the inherent secrecy of the dyers, it is highly unlikely that cloth from different sources will behave in the same way. I harbour a deep suspiscion that the ancient tartans of complex design were originally of simple design but suffered badly from bleeding of dyes before someone recorded the design. I suspect that the concept of fimbriation originated in the same way. The existance of fast bright colours is relatively modern but deeply ingrained in our culture. Plastics and cartoons are the biggest culprits as far as I am concerned. Fiacha Aquaterra, AnTir From: atterlep at vela.acs.oakland.edu (Alan Terlep) Date: 22 Jan 91 15:37:22 GMT Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI leeu at alex.stacken.kth.se (Leif Euren) writes: >Berengaria (<well!jeannec at apple.com> (Jeanne C. Stapleton)) writeth: >> Think how much easier looking for "DMC #345" would be for local >> costumers trying to make surcoats for members of their shire or barony >> who were to be part of a kingdom levy or shieldwall. The color would >> be instantly identifiable to anyone glancing around as "part of my unit". > >As it were (and this is my speculation) they reduced the numbers of >heraldic colours to allow for deviation, so that and soldier could >tell a friend, even if he had changed to a new tabard. My first response on reading this was "arrgh!" The entire point of heraldry is to make sure that people are recognizable on the battlefield. If every member of a group is wearing their heraldic badge there should be no problem with identification. In fact, most of the heraldic devices and badges we get are rejected simply because they aren't clearly recognizable at a distance. Clarity is one of the prime criteria for deciding the acceptability of a piece of heraldry. That said, there are a limited number of colors for just the reason Herr Peter suggests. In fact, the variation possible in heraldic colors is circum- stantial evidence that there was difficulty in standardizing colors. It does bother me at times that I enjoy an art form whose spectrum is covered by a set of Crayola markers, but anyone who has seen the "Heraldry" in the Pern source- book (from a fantasy workd by Anne McCaffery) will understand the problems with "Per pale blue and light blue, in base an erupting volcano brown." Lord Fairfax Aluricson Canton of the Riding of Hawkland Moor Barony of Northwoods, Midrealm atterlep at vela.acs.oakland.edu From: com259h at vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au Date: 22 Jan 91 03:26:53 GMT leeu at alex.stacken.kth.se (Leif Euren) writes: > Elaine NicMaoilan (<trifid at agora.rain.com> (Edward Fitzgerald)) writeth: >> ... I find it hard to believe consistency was not possible, within >> reason, in period! (Not perfect matches, perhaps, but close enough >> for the casual observer to not see a glaring difference....) Surely >> weavers traded formulae and hanks of threads as samples? > > Consistency in shade of colour is *VERY* difficult to obtain if one > has to resort to plant-dying, even in our Current Middle Ages, when we > in fact know how to make pecise records of previous dyings. And in > the real Middle Ages, dyers did *NOT* trade their formulaes, as they > were their wealth. My own affermation of this is mundane, but I think relevant. An uncle of my mother worked for a textile company which performed all of it's own dying, using dyes that it developed itself. My great-uncle was involved in the formulating of these dyes and kept 2 books of the dye formulas. One book was the correct one which he worked from and was kept under strict security. The other book was not kept under strict security, and the formulas were incorrect. This was the version which my uncle's employer preferred his competitors to see. Were I a period weaver who had developed a particularly appealing color, I'd try to keep it's formula, and hence the supply of cloth of that color to myself. Why provide my competitors with income that should be mine through my developing said color. In service, Wulfgang Brachwalder. Bull at vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au OR com259h at monu1.cc.monash.oz Alias: Gareth Bull, The Opal Dragon From: BERDANJ at YALEVM.BITNET (Amoret of Dragonship Haven) Date: 24 Jan 91 14:40:39 GMT Amoret of Dragonship Haven sends greetings to the Rialto and two notes of interest.... 1) Modern-day dying cannot get consistent results from bolt to bolt of fabric either; it is usually necessary to buy all from one bolt in order to get a consistent color in a large quantity of fabric. This is a problem in everything from 100% cotton to 100% polyester. It is likewise a problem with thread - different spools of the "same" color are not necessarily identical. I find it unlikely, then, that period dyers could have gotten anything like perfect consistency from dye-lot to dye-lot. From: KGANDEK at mitvmc.mit.EDU (Kathryn Gandek) Date: 23 Jan 91 21:58:44 GMT Greetings from Catrin o'r Rhyd For After reading the speculation on dye consistency and dyer secretiveness, I asked a friend, Lady Elaine Courtenay, who has looked into period dying and has recreated period dye recipes. According to her research, dye recipes were carefully guarded and handed down from master to apprentice until the 16th century. During the 16th century, articles with dye recipes appear sporadically until 1548, when an entire book detailing dye recipes was published. So as far as secretiveness goes, it seems to be true until the 16th century. As far as consistency, Elaine had the following comments. The dyers worked with consistent methods and recipes. Furthermore, they knew about variations in ingredients dependent on from where they came. For example, it might take more cochineal to make a certain red if the cochineal came from place A instead of place B. Does that mean that they could replicate colors to the point of exact matches as in the aforementioned embroidery floss color example? She doesn't think they could have. On the other hand, she believes that they could have come quite close. In her own recreation of dyes, she has come up with very similar--although not identical--results, and she hasn't trained with a guild for years. Catrin (me) has one comment on the subject. As I usually prefer that yarn for a project I am making match exactly without variation, I buy it all out of the same batch. The differences are sometimes subtle, sometimes blatant, but even modern technology doesn't always duplicate perfectly from batch to batch. Catrin o'r Rhyd For Kathryn Gandek Barony of Carolingia Boston area East Kingdom kgandek%mitvmc.bitnet at mitvma.mit.edu From: DICKSNR at qucdn.queensu.ca ("Ross M. Dickson") Date: 27 Jan 91 17:53:00 GMT Belated greetings to the Rialto from Sarra Graeham, who has been marking Grade 10 Science Exams, and hence has not been to the Rialto since last Sunday ... Herr Peder Klingrode (Leif Euren), quoting me, writes: > > ... ground and processed lapis lazuli, could not be manufactured in > > Europe until the 13th C. > I don't really believe you. But then again, I may be wrong. > Could you explain why this was so? Lapis lazuli, although a beautiful deep blue when unground, is mostly composed of a great deal of colourless stone interspersed with bits of deep blue. When ground and unprocessed, the pigment is a dull blueish grey, and water precipitation, the usual method for purifying pigments, won't separate out the blue. To separate the deep blue pigment requires "mixing the powdered lapis with a paste of wax and oil and resin, and kneading the mixture under water or lye until the blue came out in the water" (Daniel V. Thompson, _The Materials and Techniques of Medieval Painting_, Dover Books, 1956.) The paste would be put through several washes, with each wash becoming less blue than the last, and it was the custom of corrupt druggists of the 15th C. to sell bags of Ultramarine with the best blue on top, but the grey washings at the bottom. The earliest European recipes for doing this appear in the 13th C., al- though apparently the Persians had been making Ultramarine Blue since "early times" and exporting it to Europe. Just another example of how technologically advanced that part of the world was compared to Europe at the time. Sarra Graeham, Canton of Greyfells | Heather Fraser Barony of the Skraeling Althing | Kingston, Ontario, CANADA Principality of Ealdormere, Midrealm | c/o dicksnr at qucdn.queensu.ca From: 6790753%356_WEST_58TH_5TH_FL%NEW_YORK_NY%WNET_6790753 at mcimail.COM ("KATMAN.WNETS385") Date: 13 Jun 91 15:39:00 GMT Lady Therica amused us with a tale of documenting butter (and flavored butters) as used in period. She then tells of being told green is not period for clothes. There is a portrait by Raphael (I'll post the actual date if anyone needs it) painted sometime between 1450 and 1500 of "The Woman in Green." The painting has a few other titles, I forget them all. This is of an Italian woman wearing a GREEN dress. The dress is bottle green (looks like silk velvet, yum) with rusty colored trim at the neck and shoulders, and large dark blue over sleeves. It is worn over a white chemise with spanish-style blackwork bands. I also beleive (have to check this out at home) that descriptions of clothes worn by Beatrice d'Este and her sister Isabella list some green dresses. I do not know if green was period for early times, certainly I have seen tapestries with green threads (trees, leaves, etc. - see the Unicorn Hunt tapestries, et al) in them. "Prior to the advent of synthetic dyes, the majority of good clear greens, oranges, and purples were produced by overdying one primary color with another. Thus, the very early greens resulted from overdyeing indigo with a clear yellow dye or vice versa. Some of these greens were satisfactory for long exposure to light, and others were not." (Liles, p. 145) The problem is that "most natural yellow dyes are more or less fugitive to light. It is for this reason that many old textiles show only weak yellows, oranges, and greens." (Liles, p. 33) Thus, while green may have been worn, the garments would eventually become more blue than green. Of course, if the substance used to dye something yellow was not grown near where you lived, you couldn't have worn green at all. Common yellows used were Saffron (Crocus sativus), Turmeric (Curcuma longa), and Weld (Reseda luteola). I am not sure exactly how much access groups of people would have had to all these substances. The book I am quoting is Liles, J.N. 1990._The Art and Craft of Natural Dyeing_. Knoxville, TN: The University of Tennessee Press. ISBN: 0-87049-669-7 (cloth) 0-87049-670-0 (paper) A period source for dye recipes is Rosetti, G. ]1548| 1969. _The Plictho of Instructions in the Art of the Dyers._ (Translation of the first edition of 1548 by Edelstein and Borghetty). Cambridge: M.I.T. Press. The Plictho is not in print, but can be obtained by libraries through inter-library loan. Winifred de Schyppewallebotham From: jane at STRATUS.SWDC.STRATUS.COM (Jane Beckman) Date: 1 Nov 91 23:26:51 GMT Sigh, not another pink/purple war. And here I thought this thing was reserved for petty costumer department folks at the Renaissance Faire... It's very easy to prove that pink is period. Take a look at paintings of the period. Lordie, look at all those *vibrant pink* gowns! Who said the Middle Ages were drab? This caused a bit of scandal recently in art circles, too, when they restored some of the lower murals of the Cistine Chapel and found all these people who were wearing vibrantly-colored clothes. The art historians are now claiming that the restoration process must have somehow changed the colors that Michaelangelo used, because the murals were "supposed to" be gloomy... Of course, the term "pink" still referred to a plant, so they couldn't use the word itself. But then, yellow hair wasn't referred to as "blond" yet, either. ROYAL purple is made from murex. There are lots of other ways to get "sad" purples and various lavenders from natural dyes. -Jilara of Carrowlea [jane at swdc.stratus.com] From: 6790753%356_WEST_58TH_5TH_FL%NEW_YORK_NY%WNET_6790753 at mcimail.COM ("KATMAN.WNETS385") Date: 4 Dec 91 15:28:00 GMT A while back someone asked about the results of my dyeing with indigo via a urine bath at Pennsic. It sort of worked. I had only a gallon of urine (I didn't go advertising, and the crew of folks I camped with was not interested in contributing. It was left to me, Ottar and the valiant-and-pregnant Orianna). Because this was in an 8 gallon pot, it evaporated quickly and was too shallow for my purposes. The fabric did get blue, but I could not do the repeated dips needed to get it to be a rich, deep blue (dipping in such a shallow pool of liquid disturbed the sediment at the bottom which then changed the chemical balance in the bath, rendering it useless for dyeing). When I have an outdoor place to do this again, I will attempt it again. Next year I'll save up urine in advance. The fabric smells really bad (I only washed it in Ivory liquid and vinegar). I can't imagine wearing a garment that smelled like that. Maybe I'll try the non-urine alkalai vats they used ("take ashes of lees..." lye anyone?) and see if that smells better. Winifred de Schyppewallebotham (that's Middle English for "From the valley with the stream where the sheep in their pretty blue fleeces were washed")(Nolite Secundo Flumine Natare) Lee Katman == Thirteen/WNET == New York, NY Re: pigments 6 Feb 92 From: amanda at visix.com (Amanda Walker) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Organization: Visix Software, Inc. I second the recommendation of Auldhaefen Associates. They are by far the most economical place I have found to buy period pigments, spices, and all sorts of other Nifty Stuff. They are non-profit, and act as a "materials broker." That is to say, they arrange to buy a bunch of something, repackage it into smaller, more convenient packages (after all, who needs 10 pounds of dragon's blood resin :)?), and resells it at just enough to cover their costs. They're also just real nice folks. Arwen ferch Morgan Ponte Alto, Atlantia Bridge to Academe 2 21 May 92 From: carl at silver.lcs.mit.edu (Carl J.M. Alexander) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Organization: Organization??? northeastern.edu (Barbara Nostrand) writes: > >....[I]t is not necessary to limit the offer to just history >departments. There are also classics departments and medieval >studies departments. In addition there are individual researchers >in art and music departments.... > >[I]t is simply false that academics are uninterested in things >which are of interest to us. For example, musicologists are very >interested in the music that we are interested in. (Some people >get Ph.D. degrees for doing music history research and reconstructions >of music within our period.) Art historians are also intersted in >our period. There is very little that the SCA is interested in which >will not find an academic in some department in some university who >is also interested in it. Just as a for-instance, here's something I -- and I suspect many others in the Society -- would love to have available as a resource, but could never (unless I won the lottery) put together for myself. And it's a project that would be appropriate for PhD level research in any of several fields -- Art History, Textiles, History of Technology, Theater Arts.... A study of period dyes, with information for each dye on its geographic distribution (& how it varied over time), its expense (& how it varied over time), and other availablity-over-time data, along with a listing of the pantone (or whatever standard system) colors each dye could be expected to achieve with various fabrics. The amount of research involved in puting together & documenting such a compendium of information would be formidable. But imagine being able to walk into a fabric store with your pantone chart & buy fabric *knowing* that the material, the weave, and the color are authentic, and that your persona could have afforded it. Alexander of Kiev Carl Alexander carl at silver.lcs.mit.edu Period dyes... 27 May 92 From: ilaine at panix.com (Liz Stokes) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC Beth.Appleton at f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton) writes: > CJA> A study of period dyes, with information for each dye on its > CJA> geographic distribution (& how it varied over time), its expense > CJA> (& how it varied over time), and other availablity-over-time data, > CJA> along with a listing of the pantone (or whatever standard system) > CJA> colors each dye could be expected to achieve with various fabrics. >I realize that this is trivial compared to the project you describe, but >there are a couple of sources. I need to go find my book, but one of my >dye books *has* a color chart. Some of the dyes are post-period, but it >does give you some natural dyes to look at. Also, there is a nice >article on kermes and cochineal in __Cloth_and_Clothing_in_Medieval_ >_Europe,_a_Collection_of_Essays.... (I'll go find the editor on that one >if someone needs it. Please please. grovel even :) I saw a book in the Wellesley library while I was a student there, unfortunately I don't even remember the title, next time I'm up there I'll have to track the durn thing down. It had color plates showing what colors resulted from various ancient and medieval dies such as Murex and kermes. Tyrian purple isn't what we call purple today, its more of a choir-robe-burgundy. Ecclesiastical catalogs are great sources for medieval style stuff like candelabras and silk brocades btw. There is an article in the Fall 1989 issue of Spin-Off about medieval dying by Mary Hill. She was asked by an archaeologist to help work out the dyes and dying methods used in some fabrics which had been recovered from the Mary Rose, one of Henry VIII's battleships sunk in 1547 and recently raised. "He would need a supply of wool, dyed to medieval recipes, which he could use to develop a technique for extracting the dye from the wool. the extract would then be analyzed in a machine which would give a printout of peaks and troughs. The printouts for these known recipes would then be used to decode the printouts for unknown dye extracts. It would seem easier to analyze solutions of dyes to generate the printouts to be used as standards, but Paul felt that the dye is changed during the dying process; the whole operation had to be performed to mimic the condition of the dye on the artifacts." The whole story is fascinating, and at the end of the article she gives directions and recipes wheeeeee! "Three weeks before your dye day, collect urine and put it somewhere in a sealed container where no one will notice the smell." I haven't actually tried this yet :) The issue is still available from Interweave Press, the phone # is (303) 669-7672. The same issue has an article about primitive Norwegian sheep :) I've had a subscripton for about 6 years, mostly it's modern stuff, but every so often there is a great article for SCA types. -Ilaine -- Liz Stokes | Ilaine's EZ-Garb Workshop .... Ilaine de Cameron | "Take your sheep and convince him to take off all his | wool and give it too you. Try challenging him to a game ilaine at panix.com | of strip-nine-man's-morris. Sheep are stupid, you'll win." 17 Jun 92 From: ilaine at panix.com (Liz Stokes) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC Yaakov brought up an excellent point about many period recipies and such calling for things for philosophical rather than empirical reasons. That was pretty much what was on my mind when I expressed skepticism about the importance of urine from different types of people. However, there is and interesting article in the latest issue of Spin-Off (which came yesterday). It seems this spinning guild tried an experiment. Each member took 1 oz of tulip tree leaves, 2 ounces of wool, and a precise list of instructions. incredible range in color variation: dark greenish greys, pinkish beiges, reddish tans, and yellow. The only difference was in the water (members had streams, wells, or spring water). Whew. Brewers use mineral additives to reproduce the flavor or particular beers made from especially hard water, I guess the authenticity-crazed dyer should do the same :) -Ilaine -- Liz Stokes | Ilaine's EZ-Pregnancy Test Ilaine de Cameron | ... "Now take the skein of handspun yarn out of the | dyebath. If it is green, you are with child, if it ilaine at panix.com | is blue, you are not." From: bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Cooking fires, woad, and other queries Date: Sat, 20 Mar 93 01:08:33 GMT Unto Stephen Bloch does Pagan le Chaunster send Greetings! > From "The Arcana of Arts and Sciences, or, Farmers' & Mechanics' > Manual: containing a great variety of Valuable Receipts and Useful > Discoveries, some of which were Never Before Published," M. Parker > 1824: > Blue may be dyed with woad alone, which would give a permanent > but not a deep blue; but if indigo be mixed with it, a very > rich colour will be obtained. This sort of comment about the fastness of woad and the brilliance of indigo turns up all over the place. I must admit I'd expected a dark/dull blue from woad, though. (It's coming on: I'm still working on it.) > The author then goes on to describe ten recipes for blue fabric-dyes > of various qualities, using 1824 frontier technology. In addition to > woad, indigo, and bran, some common ingredients are madder, potash, > weld (?), alum, and white tartar. Weld is a plant which gives one of the clearest and most lasting yellow dyes. I'm surprised to see it in a list of blue-making ingredients, but I prefer red-blues to yellow-blues. Madder is the traditional red dye (with madder, weld and woad you can get a long way). British police wear blue uniforms, and it seems that until 1932 they were dyed with a mixure of woad, indigo, madder, bran, and slaked lime. Pagan ________________________________________________________________________ Jennifer Geard bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz Christchurch, New Zealand From: winifred at trillium.soe.umich.EDU (Lee Katman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: madder in woad vats Date: 20 Mar 1993 11:10:13 -0500 Hi, Sorry about not quoting the relevant article, I'm not good at using this funky editor... When madder is put into woad vats, as I understand it, it is to act as a nutrient for the fermentation, as is the bran. To get color out of madder, it has to be cooked pretty well, and the fabric has to be mordanted (something that indigo/woad dyeing doesn't require). Apparently lime and microorganism (bran & madder provide food for the micro- organisms) vats were even used up to the early part of this cntury in Africa and the Appalachian sections of the US, and are still used in Japan. The slaked lime mentioned is also called Calcium Oxide. Liles (my favorite source!) says that madder, bran, molasses, dates and raisins were added to fermentation vats as sugar sources for the fermentation. Another hint, you apparently do not want your wool to be in contact with the sediment at the bottom of the vat, so it should be suspended in the liquid. You can apparently leave wool in for a while, the alkalinity in urine vats is of the most gentle sort. Winifred Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: madder in woad vats From: bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 93 01:16:37 GMT Hi Winifrid, Er, I though if you boiled madder you released the yellow dye from it, which turned madder reds orange. I know that if you overheat woad it yields pinks (which can be handy as an all-in-one overdying process for lavender shades if you mordant with alum). If the madder is just used for fermentation I guess I can save it for real use in something else -- I've had no trouble getting bran to ferment so far. :-) Thanks for the comments. Pagan ________________________________________________________________________ Jennifer Geard bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz Christchurch, New Zealand From: haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Saffron Shirts Date: 21 May 1993 20:11:55 GMT Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation - DECwest Engineering Greetings from Fiacha, Some time ago there was a thread on saffron and the saffron shirts of the Scots and the Irish. A couple of days ago I recived a gift of _Irish Spinning, Dyeing and Weaving_ by Lillias Mitchell which containsd the following:- ...this is bourne out by the only recipe we have, which is given by Good, an Englishman, who was for a time priest and schoolmaster at Limerick, and whose account of Ireland, written in about 1566, is incorporated in Camden's Britannia. He says: "With boughs, bark and leaves of poplar trees beaten together, they dye their loose shirts of a saffron colour (which are now much out of use) mixing the bark of the wild Arbut tree with salt and saffron. In dyeing, their way is not to boil the thing long, but to let it soak for some days together in wine that the colour may be deeper and more durable." Does anyone have any suggestions as to where I might find "Camden's Britannia"? I am assuming that the saffron used is in the process is a token trace to satisfy local 'truth in advertizing' requirements. Fiacha p.s. Thank you, Brid. From: motto at cbnewsf.cb.att.com (mary.rita.otto) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: dyeing in the 9th c Date: 21 Jun 93 21:43:24 GMT Organization: AT&T In article <1993Jun18.190239.11305 at bcars6a8.bnr.ca> Henry.Troup at BNR.CA writes: >In Hrolf Kraki's Saga (as interpreted by Poul Anderson) there's >reference to red from lichen dye. By extrapolation, blue and green from >lichens would also be available. >You can email Dame Enid care of me, BTW. > >Henry Troup - H.Troup at BNR.CA (Canada) When the Roman invaders came to Gaul, they encountered fighters who had dyed themselves blue with woad. Dyes also existed for green and red. Mixing these could produce a wide variety of colors. Purple was difficult to make bright because of chemical reactions between the dyes which caused it to turn brownish, and hence, was expensive and rare. Yellow was also well known and used, as was bleaching, using chemicals and sunlight. I have some documentation for this at home in a book on Medieval Tapestry Designs -- if you'd like the reference, please let me know. So, pretty much all the colors are available in the 9th century. Mary Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: dyeing in the 9th c From: bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 93 00:18:16 GMT Unto Henry, Mary, and the other goodly Folk of the Rialto does Pagan send Greeting! If you're searching for C9th Scandinavian dyestuffs I'd suggest starting with the Compleat Anachronist #59 _Women's Garb in Northern Europe, 450-100 C.E._ by Christina Krupp and Carolyn A. Priest-Dorman (Mistress Thora Sharptooth, who sometimes appears here). Its discussion of dyeing is brief, but it has a wonderful bibliography with references like: Walton, Penelope, "Dyes of the Viking Age: A Summary of Recent Work," in _Dyes in History and Archaeology_ 7, 1988. > >In Hrolf Kraki's Saga (as interpreted by Poul Anderson) there's > >reference to red from lichen dye. By extrapolation, blue and green from > >lichens would also be available. Lichens produce dye by two methods: fermentation or boiling. Fermentation gives the interesting colours: mostly pinks, purples, reds, and oranges. In my experience boiling tends to produce yellows (at least in New Zealand). Yellow is the easiest and most common colour from natural dyeing. Oh well. The colour you get from fermenting fermentable lichens is not related to the colour of the lichen you started with. If you can produce blue and green from lichen I'd really like to know, since they're two of the most difficult colours... > When the Roman invaders came to Gaul, they encountered fighters > who had dyed themselves blue with woad. I posted on this some months back: there are three Roman sources which mention the bodypainting activities of the Ancient Britons, and they each give a different colour (blue, green, and black). These colours can all be produced from woad, but blue's the most difficult. Who knows? > Dyes also existed for green and red. Red, yes, but green? If you know of a decent single dye for green, please tell -- all the good greens I know of require a two-stage process where you dye them with yellow and then overdye with woad-blue. > Mixing these could produce a wide variety of colors. Yup. Think brick-red (madder: Rubia tinctoria), slightly greenish blue (woad: Isatis tinctoria), and clear yellow (weld: Reseda luteola). The active components of these three dyes were found in textiles from Sutton Hoo. With these primaries you can overdye to make orange, green, and purple. > Purple was difficult to make bright because of chemical > reactions between the dyes which caused it to turn brownish, and > hence, was expensive and rare. Hmmmm... by the ninth century the use of the murex shellfish-based Tyrian purple (the stuff on Roman toga bands, which had these problems) was in decline. On the other hand there's a type of lichen purple which was pretty widespread (and apparently fashionable in Viking Ireland) and you can make purples by overdyeing woad with madder. The language of colour is fascinating and full of traps: we'd probably call Tyrian purple "magenta." > Yellow was also well known and used, Too right. As I type I'm looking at one of the deepest and most aniline- looking yellows I've encountered. It's from onion skins on a mostly-linen underdress, and I don't feel I can any longer repeat the old comments about natural colours being tasteful and muted. The colour of dyed fabrics depends on the fabric, the life-history of the dyestuff, and the dye process. Scandinavian fabrics were predominantly wool and linen, and although well-scoured wool takes dye well, linen resists all but woad and tannin-based dyes (like onion skins and bark). The growing conditions of the dyeplants and cloth-fibres (etc) make a difference to the colour -- I never know whether the colours I get in New Zealand are anything like the shades of Scandinavia, for instance, and linen grown here will never be as white as Irish linen. Most frustrating. The dye-process may involve mordanting (clubmoss is usually replaced with a little alum and less cream of tartar nowadays), fermentation using bran and/or stale urine (just don't ask my housemates about it, okay?), and heating for certain lengths of time at certain temperatures (madder contains a red dye which is released at below simmering temperatures, and a yellow dye which comes out with boiling. If you want red rather than orange, you have to keep the dyebath just below a simmer.). All that sort of thing. Uhmmm... neutrals are easy. The native northern sheep were brown anyway, and there's a range of bark-based dyes which produce pink through tan, brown and black (though getting a good black is quite surprisingly difficult). Another point to remember is that there seems to have been a great trade in both fabrics and dyestuffs at the time you mention. Underdresses from Kiev, fine fabrics from Damascus, walnut shells etc imported for dyeing, are all found at Scandinavian sites. Then there's the Han dynasty silk brocade in a C10th grave at Birka. Makes you think: if A trades with B who trades with C... The moral of the story is that Viking colours are not restricted by the local flora. Iceland didn't have to make do with lichens and dwarf-birch-bark, and there's some seriously strange documentable Viking clothing out there. Pagan (aka Signy Ragnarsdottir) ________________________________________________________________________ Jennifer Geard bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz Christchurch, New Zealand From: Sheri.Stanley at f326.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Sheri Stanley) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: dyeing in the 9th c Date: Fri, 25 Jun 93 08:35:00 PDT Organization: FidoNet node 1:3603/326 - SPPE, St Petersburg FL HT>|> > >In Hrolf Kraki's Saga (as interpreted by Poul Anderson) there's HT>|> > >reference to red from lichen dye. By extrapolation, blue and green fr HT>|> > >lichens would also be available. HT>... HT>|>The colour you get from fermenting fermentable lichens is not related to t HT>|>colour of the lichen you started with. If you can produce blue and green HT>|>from lichen I'd really like to know, since they're two of the most difficu HT>|>colours... HT>I was extrapolating from the Harris tweed greens and blues. The real HT>stuff is said to be dyed with "crottle", a lichen. As far as I've been able to ascertain, the colors to be gotten from fermenting lichens are all in the red/purple color range. Yellow and brown are fairly common from using lichens simply boiled, and you can sometimes get a greenish yellow (pretty gross color, actually). However, my experiments & reading have never once turned up the possibility of blue or green from lichens (and probably a good thing!). Harris Tweed greens & blues are dyed w/indigo or woad (w/a yellow overdye for the green). The crottle is used in other colors, brown or yellow. It accounts for the distinctive smell of Harris Tweeds. Blues can be gotten from indigo, woad, dyer's knotweed. Greens are usually gotten by overdyeing, but some plants will produce a greeny color which can be strengthened by using copper as a mordant. Grania -- Internet: Sheri.Stanley at f326.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG UUCP: ...!myrddin!mechanic!326!Sheri.Stanley Note: Mechanic is a free gateway between FIdonet<>USENET for the TAMPA BAY,FL. metropolitan area. From: palmer at cis.ohio-state.edu (sharon ann palmer) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: DYESTUFFS Date: 12 Aug 1993 11:36:15 -0400 Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray) writes: >There's a periodical called something like "dyes in Archaeology". An Please post this reference. >I haven't come across St. John's Blood, is that another name for >kermes? Its another insect in the same family. _Prehistoric Textiles_ by E.J.W. Barber has a nice section on the various red insect dyes. Some have carminic acid, some kermesic acid as the coloring agent. On pg. 224, "Late Neolithic textile fibers dyed red with kermes,... as well as kermes itself, were discovered in cave at Adaouste in southern France (Cotte and Cotte 1916, 764)" from the bib: Cotte, J and C. Cotte. 1916 "examen d'un pa^te pre'historique" _Comptes Rendus se l'Acade'mie des Sciences 162: 762-64. Barber is worth reading for anyone interested in early spinning, weaving, or dying. Ranvaig palmer at cis.ohio-state.edu From: longo at eggo.usf.edu (Andrea Longo) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: DYESTUFFS Date: 13 Aug 1993 06:30:04 GMT Organization: University of South Florida, Department of Computer Science and Engineering In article <24do1fINNel9 at iguana.cis.ohio-state.edu> palmer at cis.ohio-state.edu (sharon ann palmer) writes: > >_Prehistoric Textiles_ by E.J.W. Barber has a nice section on the >various red insect dyes. Some have carminic acid, some kermesic >acid as the coloring agent. > > >Barber is worth reading for anyone interested in early spinning, >weaving, or dying. > I think I saw a paperback version for a somewhat less obscene amount of money. Anyone looking to acquire should check this out. I agree that it is a wonderful source for textile people. Asleif From: jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Dyestuffs Date: 17 Aug 93 09:46:52 Organization: STC Technology Ltd., London Road, Harlow, UK. Dyes in History and Archaeology 7 (Papers presented at the 7th annual meeting, York 1988) Published by Textile Research on behalf of the Association of Researchers into Dyes in History and Archaeology, York 1989 ISSN 0952-2476 I bought my copy at the Jorvik Viking centre York U.K. for two pounds ninety five pence. It saya further copies of this volume can be obtained from: P. Walton Textile Research 12 Bootham Terrace York Y03 7DH England Cheques, money orders or transfers should be made payable to 'Dyes in History and Archaeology' Giro account no: 63-935-5906 possibly relevant papers included are: D. Cardon: Mediterranean kermes and kermes dying M.C. Whiting: The analysis of madder and related Dyes H. Schweppe: Identification of red madder and insect dyes by thin layer chromatography [abstract only] P. Walton Dyes of the Viking Age: a summary of recent Work Penelope Walton's paper says kermes was found on imported silks in Viking Age England Another paper mentioning kermes is 'Dyes and Wools in Iron Age Textiles from Norway and Denmark' Penelope Walton, Journal of Danish Archaeology, vol 7, 1988, pp144-158 textile number c348 from Veien is listed as dyed with 'Polosh Cochineal' textile number B4590 type 4 is listed as dyed with 'kermes or Polish coch.' Both Veim and Evebo Eide are listed as "Scandinavian or north European in origin from late Roman/Migration Period" JSDC Volume 105 November 1989 has an article by A Verhecken entitled "dyeing with kermes is still alive!" and giving details on commercial Kermes dyeing in Tunis, this is only done 3 or 4 times a year. The author of the paper beleives he has found the only remaining commercial kermes dyers. JSDC Volume 106 May/June 1990 has an article entitled "Kermes, a Dying dye" by Dominique Cardon, which begins: "Kermes, the pea-sized parasite of a prickly evergreen Mediterranean oak, is the source of one of the most exclusive dyes of all times: scarlet. In ancient and medieval times it was second only to the imperial purple..." the article goes on to say the name kermes is from the Persian kirmis from the indo-european root kwrmi (worm). The name originally described the Armenian or Arrarat cochineal (Porphyrophora hameli) but came to be applied to other red dye yielding insects. Dominique Cardon the describes dyes obtained from 5 different insects in the kermes family and identifies Kermes vermilio the species yielding the red dye. Pretty similar stuff to the paper in 'Dyes in History and Archaeology', Hope thats of some use. If you want more specific information let me know & I'll see what I can find. Sadly since I stopped being a student I don't have easy access to a good library, but I still have a huge pile of papers at home I can look through. It's not the same though, I thimk I'm addicted to libraries and suffering withdrawl symptoms! If anyone wants a copy of the Dyes in History and Archaeology and has trouble sorting out some U.K. currency I would be happy to do swaps for some SCA literature (I have a very old copy of the known world handbook, presumably it has changed since, & it sounds like a lot more stuff has been produced aswell) Jennifer Vanaheim Vikings (not SCA, just passing through the Rialto) From: bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: dyestuffs, kermes Date: Wed, 18 Aug 93 06:20:44 GMT Organization: Lethargy Inc. Greetings from Pagan, in a flying visit... Grania asked whether there was evidence that kermes was used in pre-1000 Scandinavia and/or the British Isles. When I asked Mistress Thora Sharptooth a similar question some months back (I was solely interested in Vikings), she replied that--as far as she'd been able to determine--they did not themselves use the stuff. Apparently kermes turns up on imported silks, but not on wools or linens. Yes, it is a pity. All I've got from madder so far is a deep salmon -- any suggestions? Pagan le Chaunster ________________________________________________________________________ Jennifer Geard bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz Christchurch, New Zealand From: jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: dyestuffs, kermes Date: 19 Aug 93 09:21:00 Organization: STC Technology Ltd., London Road, Harlow, UK. I posted something earlier about analyses of Dyes on Viking Age textiles in England. Your Mistress Thora Sharptooth may be correct. In "Textiles Cordage and Raw Fibres from 16-22 Coppergate" are results of tests undertaken by Dr G.W. Taylor. Textiles analyed are 9th Century CE to medieval from 3 sites in York. Over 34 samples were dyed with madder (5 were silk the rest wool), but only 3 pieces of silk were dyed with kermes (a silk tabby weave textile, a silk ribbon, and a silk reliquary pouch.) The accompanying text comments: "Kermes was imported into England in the Medieval Period, and is to be found in the better-quality testiles of that period. It was always an expensive dye, however, and it is not surprising that the cheaper madder was the more common red to be used in the wool textiles" However bear in mind that dye testing is a fairly recent innovation in the archaeology of textiles, so some kermes red may yet appear on English wool. But it would probably have belonged to the period equivalent of a millionare! Dyes on linens are a bit more problematical, as most surviving samples are too carbonised to analyse successfully for dye content. You can get brighter colours from madder by adding chalk to the dyebath, a friend of mine had good results using alum mordant then adding ammonia to the dyebath. Be sure not to overheat or the dye goes a bronze colour instead of red. Use the freshest root you can get, chopped fine with a food processor, or grated. I have only dyed with madder powder so far which gives a brownish brick red, no matter how cool you keep the dyebath. I've just got hold of some root & am hoping it will come out brighter. If your colour is salmon maybe you just don't have enough madder in the dyebath? Jennifer (Not SCA just passing the Rialto & stopped for a gossip) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: hwt at bcarh11a.bnr.ca (Henry Troup) Subject: Re: dyestuffs, kermes Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1993 17:15:27 GMT In article <JAB2.93Aug19092100 at bhars243.stl.stc.co.uk>, jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray) writes: |> a bronze colour instead of red. Use the freshest root you can get, |> chopped fine with a food processor, or grated. I have only dyed with |> madder powder so far which gives a brownish brick red, no matter how |> cool you keep the dyebath. I've just got hold of some root & am hoping |> it will come out brighter. If your colour is salmon maybe you just |> don't have enough madder in the dyebath? My wife, Dame Enid, has done a lot of madder dyeing. We (which often means me) pound the dried root in a big mortar and pestle. The first bit off the root gives the brown - we separate it. The next third of the the pounding gives the best reds. The last thirdis discarded. It's plant cores and is muddy again. She made a lovely pink baby blanket by letting the madder bath ferment (no additions needed, it ferments by itself). That was over two pounds of wool in six or so dyebaths. Consistent madder dyeing is possible, but takes a lot of care. Jennifer, we have madder growing in the garden. We've never used fresh root - I presume it needs to be dried before use? Do you know? Before that, we got our best madder from a supplier in Godalming, England, whose name escapes me at present. I know that she grew her own root. -- Henry Troup - H.Troup at BNR.CA (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions "The minority possess their equal rights, which equal laws must protect" - TJ Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: gwennis at jcnpc.cmhnet.org (Gwennis Mooncat) Subject: Re: dyestuffs, kermes Organization: Homebrew Virtual Reality Labs Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1993 00:52:24 GMT greetings! glad some of us are still on line this week...8-) i, too, have not managed to get real red from madder. i have tried whole rooots and powdered, keeping the temp low, pH shifts, mordanting first and in the same bath (doesn't work too well together). the best i can do is dark orangey-red, or screaming neon orange (with tin). i also found that using , by weight, 2 X fiber weight gives the most color, then doing exhaust baths. yes, i know, that is an excessive amount, but it gave great color. glad so many are interested in real dyes...8-) gwennis mistress gwynydd ni gelligaer, ol march of tirnewydd, barony middle marches, mk columbus, oh From: KEITHS at KSUVM.BITNET (Lisbet) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: dyestuffs Date: 22 Aug 1993 13:37:17 -0400 Organization: The Internet I think that in his class at Vertigo II Richard Barbarossa said something about the British Redcoat Red being from madder. If I remember rightly, he said there's a brighter vein in the root and that small children with sharp knives peeled off the less bright stuff and that it took a very large number of roots to get enough bright veins to do any worthwhile amount of cloth. Of course, being a terminally worried parent I keyed in on the *small children* with *sharp knives* part and I could be misremembering which plant the dyestuff was from. Replies to BETHS at KSUVM.KSU.EDU (Reply will send it to my husband.) From: PRIEST at vaxsar.vassar.EDU (CAROLYN PRIEST-DORMAN) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Dyestuffs (kermes) Date: 27 Aug 1993 09:02:04 -0400 Organization: The Internet Subject: Dyestuffs Unto the Fishyfolk of the Rialto, greeting from Thora Sharptooth! I missed seeing most of you at Pennsic, although I had the pleasure of meeting a few of you briefly. Next year we won't be camped with royalty, we promise! Catching up on my digests, I find that while I was at Pennsic, Grania From Trimaris wrote: >Perhaps someone can help w/a personal quest of mine. I am searching for >primary evidence of the existence and/or use of Kermes or St. John's >Blood prior to 1000 C.E. I have searched in vain so far (though I'm >pretty certain its use didn't just spring up overnight), and I'd love to >hear if anyone has any pertinent info. FIBER FREAKERY ALERT; IF YOU DON'T APPRECIATE DYEING OR EARLY PERIOD TEXTILES, QUIT NOW! From what I have been able to determine, kermes (Kermes vermilio) was used in eastern Mediterranean silk dyeing well before its eventual importation into western and northern Europe. Here are some sample references for pre-1000 examples of its use. (The confusion over bug nomenclature has been taken into account, and only references to the "true" kermes, backed up by chemical evidence of the dyeing agent kermesitic acid, have been listed here below.) Two silk textiles from Period 4B of Viking Age Jorvik, circa 930-975 CE, catalogued in Penelope Walton, TEXTILES, CORDAGE AND RAW FIBRE FROM 16-22 COPPERGATE, Vol. 17:5 of THE ARCHAEOLOGY OF Y0RK (1989): 1342, "Fragments, largest 145x30mm, of dark brown loose tabby, 18/Z/0.1 x 23/I/0.4. Dyed with ?kermes." 1355, "Mid brown ribbon, 135x19mm, made up of two similar pieces, 100 and 40mm long, stitched together, tabby, with simple selvedges, Wa/48-52/S x We/30- 36/S, c. 90 warps wide. Dyed with kermes." (p. 437) Also, 1408, the Jorvik reliquary pouch (although not necessary pre- 1000), included a kermes-dyed samite outer pouch. (p. 438) Three textiles listed in Dominique Cardon, Alain Colombini, and Brigitte Oger, "Analysis of Medieval