Home Page

Stefan's Florilegium

dyeing-msg



This document is also available in: text or RTF formats.

dyeing-msg - 3/19/08

 

Dyeing techniques and discussion. Both modern and period dyes.

 

NOTE: See also the files: green-art, mordants-msg, washing-msg, woad-msg.

 

KEYWORDS: dyes dyeing medieval mordants woad indigo madder saffron lichens techniques overdyeing

 

************************************************************************

NOTICE -

 

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

 

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

 

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

 

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

 

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

 

Thank you,

    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                          Stefan at florilegium.org

************************************************************************

                  

From: lisch at mentor.com (Ray Lischner)

Date: 17 Jan 90 22:14:29 GMT

Organization: Mentor Graphics Corp., Beaverton, OR

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

 

My lady wife, aoibhinn ni luan, recommends "A Weaver's Garden,"

by Rita Buchanan (1987, Interweave Press, ISBN 0-934026-28-9).

A Weaver's Garden covers the use of plants in fabric making,

including dyeing.  The time period covered includes the SCA period,

and more.  Included are some color pictures of the results, showing

that diverse, bright colors can be obtained from period dyes.

 

Not all natural dyes are period, and Ms. Buchanan mentions

the history of the plants and their uses.

 

There are also chapters on using plants for cleaning, plants

as used in tools (such as Fullers' Teasle for carding wool),

and making your own garden.

 

The references and suggested readings include technical articles

for those who are interested in chemistry.

--

Ray Lischner        UUCP: {uunet,decwrl}!mntgfx!lisch

 

 

From: DICKSNR at qucdn.queensu.ca ("Ross M. Dickson")

Date: 20 Jan 91 18:16:00 GMT

 

Greetings to the Rialto from Sarra Graeham, courtesy of Lord Angus:

 

In Digest v.4 no.25, Herr Peder Klingrode (Leif Euren) writes:

> In fact, in the early Middle Ages, blue dye for textiles were hard

> (not to say impossible) to get, while green was easy to come by; while

> quite the opposite was true for paints.  Thus, a person with a Azure

> coat-of-arms wore a green tabard and flew a green flag: the colours

> were considered equal.

 

My knowledge of the several technologies that Herr Peder brings together

here are not perfect, but my gut reaction is that this statement is an

example of modern misunderstanding of period technologies.

 

First off, it is my understanding that the woad plant, which produces a

dye chemically identical to indigo, was available and used as a dye in the

British Isles from well before the Roman times.  (Can someone correct me

on this?  I have references to it being used as a pigment from the 9th C.)

I'm sure that woad or indigo, indigo having been imported since at least

the first Crusade, was used in the Bayeux Tapestry to produce a slightly

greenish -- but unmistakable -- blue.  Furthermore, most blue pigments

available for painting at that time -- indigo, azurite, copper blues --

had more or less greenish casts, so a greenish-blue dye would not be con-

sidered out of place.  So-called azure or ultramarine blue, made of ground

and processed lapis lazuli, could not be manufactured in Europe until the

13th C., and was an imported luxury until that time.

 

Secondly, "coats-of-arms" as such did not really exist until the mid to

late 12th C.  Admittedly, great lords probably had battle flags and livery

colours before then, but not in the same profusion. (Perhaps one or more

of the heralds on the net could provide better information.)  By the 12th

C., indigo dye was available all over Europe.  In fact, I have been told

by dyers that good greens are much harder to get than blues, given the

availability of indigo, and indigo dye with an overdyeing of yellow is

necessary to be able to make the best greens.

Herr Peder (or anyone else who might be listening), do you have more evi-

dence to support your statement?  My case is merely circumstantial, and

I would happily be corrected by someone who knew better.

     Sarra Graeham, Canton of Greyfells    |  Heather Fraser

     Barony of the Skraeling Althing       |  Kingston, Ontario, CANADA

     Principality of Ealdormere, Midrealm  |  c/o dicksnr at qucdn.queensu.ca

 

                  

From: pears at latcs1.oz.au (Arnold N Pears)

Date: 21 Jan 91 05:52:43 GMT

Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia

 

timm at hoss.unl.edu (Tim Myers) writes:

>everyone. Then we hit upon an idea, DMC floss is very consistent in its

>colors and numbering scheme, and you can find DMC floss all over the place.

>What would happen if kingdom level sewing guild got together with the

>current royalty and heirs and decided what OFFICIAL CALONTIR PURPURE AND OR

>were? Especially since there was a request a twelfth night for more Calontir

>fighting tabards. Wouldn't it be nice if they all looked the same?

 

While the idea of uniformity is attractive to the modern eye, I

suspect that in the SCA period, even if you take it to extend from

600-1650AD, the colour of cloth would have varied considerably

from batch to batch.

 

The dyeing of cloth with natural dyes is a complex task, and

fixing some of the more rare colours, such as purple, made them

expensive during the mediaeval period. I find it difficult to

believe that any group prior to the 18th century would have placed

much importance on the exact shade. To do so would require the

establishment of uniforms and hence bulk production of cloth for

a specific purpose, which to the best of my knowledge is

really outside the scope of the recreation.

 

I suggest you all just buy local purple, as you would have done

in the period, and pride yourselves on the period look of your

soldiery.

 

Lord Arenwald von Hagenburg

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Arnold Pears.  Computer Sci Dept                ACSNET : pears at latcs1.oz

La Trobe Uni, Bundoora 3083.

VIC, AUSTRALIA                                  "Well here we all are then."

    Ph (03) 479-1144                                            -ME

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                  

 

From: bloch at thor.ucsd.edu (Steve Bloch)

Date: 21 Jan 91 07:37:19 GMT

 

DICKSNR at qucdn.queensu.ca (Ross M. Dickson, really Sarra Greaham) writes:

>First off, it is my understanding that the woad plant, which produces a

>dye chemically identical to indigo....

 

"Blue may be dyed with woad alone, which would give a permanent but

not a deep blue; but if indigo be mixed with it, a very rich colour

will be obtained."

 

"Take a quarter of a pound of indigo, half a pound of pot ash, a

quarter of a pound of madder, and three handfuls of bran: let them

boil for half an hour, and then settle; with this ley grind the indigo

in a copper bowl: put this in an old vat of indigo, or on a new one of

woad, and it will make it fit for use in twenty-four hours."

 

>Furthermore, most blue pigments

>available for painting at that time -- indigo, azurite, copper blues --

>had more or less greenish casts, so a greenish-blue dye would not be con-

>sidered out of place.

 

"Receipt to dye 8 lbs. of Deep Blue in Linen or Cotton.

Take 4 ounces of indigo and grind fine, 2 ounces of madder, 8 ounces

of copperas, 8 ounces of pot ash, 4 ounces of lime, and 1 ounce of

alum: mix it all together with 5 gallons of soft water...."

 

>In fact, I have been told

>by dyers that good greens are much harder to get than blues, given the

>availability of indigo, and indigo dye with an overdyeing of yellow is

>necessary to be able to make the best greens.

 

"To dye Cotton Yarn a Deep Blue.

Take one pound of logwood chipped fine or pounded and boil it in a

sufficient quantity of water till the whole colouring matter is

extracted, then take about half a gallon of this liquor and dissolve

it in an ounce of verdigris ... or if you want an elegant green, boil

hickory bark in the liquor and it will produce it."

 

"Saxon greens" are produced by dying with indigo sulphate after a

tin-and-oak-bark mordant.

Three other greens, however, are described as a blue dye followed by

a yellow, or vice versa.

 

All quotations are taken from "The Arcana of Arts and Sciences", by M.

Parker; this is a primary source, but only from 1824, and written in

the U.S. so some of the plants may not exist in Europe.

--  

Stephen Bloch

Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib

>sca>Caid>Calafia>St.Artemas

bloch at cs.ucsd.edu

 

                  

From: leeu at alex.stacken.kth.se (Leif Euren)

Date: 21 Jan 91 09:02:09 GMT

Organization: The Internet

 

Berengaria (<well!jeannec at apple.com> (Jeanne C. Stapleton)) writeth:

> ... I like the idea of telling people to match to a particular color

> of DMC embroidery floss.  Reason: have you ever looked through your

> kingdom's regalia?  There are several sets of surcoats/cloaks/etc.

> in the West Kingdom Regalia, most of which never get worn, largely

> because a hideous shade of green was used in their construction.

 

It's sad to see regaila unused, beacuse our modern eyes think the

colours are "hideous".  On the other hand: people in the Middle Ages

would have loved yarn and cloth of consistent colour.

 

> Think how much easier looking for "DMC #345" would be for local

> costumers trying to make surcoats for members of their shire or barony

> who were to be part of a kingdom levy or shieldwall. The color would

> be instantly identifiable to anyone glancing around as "part of my unit".

 

As it were (and this is my speculation) they reduced the numbers of

heraldic colours to allow for deviation, so that and soldier could

tell a friend, even if he had changed to a new tabard.

 

Thus, I don't see any fault in recommending a shade-by-number for

"official" items; be it paint, dyed textile or others.

We shouldn't make it a law, though.

 

Elaine NicMaoilan (<trifid at agora.rain.com> (Edward Fitzgerald)) writeth:

> ... I find it hard to believe consistency was not possible, within

> reason, in period!  (Not perfect matches, perhaps, but close enough

> for the casual observer to not see a glaring difference....) Surely

> weavers traded formulae and hanks of threads as samples?

 

Consistency in shade of colour is *VERY* difficult to obtain if one

has to resort to plant-dying, even in our Current Middle Ages, when we

in fact know how to make pecise records of previous dyings.  And in

the real Middle Ages, dyers did *NOT* trade their formulaes, as they

were their wealth.

 

But the again, shades "close enough for the casual observer to not see

a glaring difference" would be the pride of every master dyer, and

they certainly did appear during the Middle Ages.

 

        Herr Peder Klingrode           +---------------------------+

         Canton of Holmgard             | Leif Euren                |

         Barony of Nordmark             |                          |

         Principality of Drachenwald    | leeu at alex.stacken.kth.se  |

         Kingdom of the East            +---------------------------+

    

              

From: leeu at alex.stacken.kth.se (Leif Euren)

Date: 21 Jan 91 17:55:42 GMT

 

Herr Peder Klingrode greets all Gentle of the Rialto: Frid vare med Eder!

 

Lord Arenwald von Hagenburg (pears at latcs1.oz.au (Arnold N Pears)) writeth:

> I find it difficult to believe that any group prior to the 18th

> century would have placed much importance on the exact shade.

 

So do I, but I also argue that a person who could afford to outfit his

entire staff in a uniformly coloured livery, would do so to show off

his wealth: everybody could see that he had bought all that fabric at

the same time!

 

Sarra Graeham (Heather Fraser) writeth:

> ... the woad plant, which produces a dye chemically identical to

> indigo, was available and used as a dye in the British Isles from well

> before the Roman times.

 

And it was used in Scandinavia, too, in the 10th C.

 

> I'm sure that woad or indigo <...> produce a slightly greenish -- but

> unmistakable -- blue.

 

Depending of what kind of metal the kettle is of, you may get many

strange shades when dying with indigo.

 

> In fact, I have been told by dyers that good greens are much harder to

> get than blues, given the availability of indigo, and indigo dye with

> an overdyeing of yellow is necessary to be able to make the best

> greens.

 

If you (or rather, the dyers) by "good greens" mean "_beautiful_

greens", you're absolutely right.  And this is not even subjectively:

everybody (well, _almost_ everybody) will admit that yellow over-

coloured with indigo is more beautiful than naturally dyed green.

 

> Herr Peder, do you have more evidence to support your statement?

 

I'm sorry to say that I no evidence for my statements; it was just

something I read in a book on Heraldry, and I don't even remember

which (I'll have a look in my library, and I'll be back with a

reference if I find one).

I, too, would happily be corrected by someone who knew better.

 

> ... ground and processed lapis lazuli, could not be manufactured in

> Europe until the 13th C.

 

I don't really believe you. But then again, I may be wrong.

Could you explain why this was so?

 

    Herr Peder Klingrode, Canton of Holmgard    | Leif Euren

    Barony of Nordmark                          | Stockholm, Sweden

    Principality of Drachenwald, East           | leeu at alex.stacken.kth.se

 

 

From:    Chaz Butler

To:      "Ross M. Dickson

Date: 23-Jan-91 04:59pm

Subject: Re: 'official' colors

 

There is a woman at Pennsic every year with a dyer's wheel.  This has formula

from plants native to Britain and Europe fixed with various mineral salts.

The colors range from 5 shades of magenta, through hot pinks, bright oranges,

lime and electric greens, vivid blues, indigos, electric blues, and deep

purples, as well as browns and puces.  If she, with only a couple of years of

experimenting with plants native to Europe and a dyer's cloth can come up with

many shades, and duplicate them, then the dyers of Europe surely did the same.

 

                  

From: haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)

Date: 22 Jan 91 18:39:04 GMT

Organization: DECwest, Digital Equipment Corp., Bellevue WA

In article <9101210902.AAalex.stacken.kth.se22365 at alex.stacken.kth.se>,

leeu at alex.stacken.kth.se (Leif Euren) writes:

> Berengaria (<well!jeannec at apple.com> (Jeanne C. Stapleton)) writeth:

> > ... I like the idea of telling people to match to a particular color

> > of DMC embroidery floss.

>  

> Elaine NicMaoilan (<trifid at agora.rain.com> (Edward Fitzgerald)) writeth:

> > ... I find it hard to believe consistency was not possible, within

> > reason, in period!

>  

> But the again, shades "close enough for the casual observer to not see

> a glaring difference" would be the pride of every master dyer, and

> they certainly did appear during the Middle Ages.

 

I have seen the effects of dying a series of hanks in the same dye bath, they

all came out a different shade and the dyer admitted that predicting the

shade was next to impossible. I take this as evidence that reproducing a shade

was and is so difficult as to be futile to attempt. A close match should be

fairly simple, provided that only one dye bath is needed. Overdying such as

has been mentioned for green would make a close much very difficult.

 

The next thing to remember is that period dyes are rarely 'fast'. Most dyes

will fade in the sun, leach in the washing and bleed into the adjacent cloth.

A set of tabards will age the same only if they were all made of the same

materials, dyed using the processes. Given the multitude of processes to

obtain specific colours, and the inherent secrecy of the dyers, it is highly

unlikely that cloth from different sources will behave in the same way.

 

I harbour a deep suspiscion that the ancient tartans of complex design were

originally of simple design but suffered badly from bleeding of dyes before

someone recorded the design. I suspect that the concept of fimbriation

originated in the same way.

 

The existance of fast bright colours is relatively modern but deeply ingrained

in our culture. Plastics and cartoons are the biggest culprits as far as I am

concerned.

 

                Fiacha

                Aquaterra, AnTir

 

 

From: atterlep at vela.acs.oakland.edu (Alan Terlep)

Date: 22 Jan 91 15:37:22 GMT

Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI

 

leeu at alex.stacken.kth.se (Leif Euren) writes:

 

>Berengaria (<well!jeannec at apple.com> (Jeanne C. Stapleton)) writeth:

 

>> Think how much easier looking for "DMC #345" would be for local

>> costumers trying to make surcoats for members of their shire or barony

>> who were to be part of a kingdom levy or shieldwall.  The color would

>> be instantly identifiable to anyone glancing around as "part of my unit".

>

>As it were (and this is my speculation) they reduced the numbers of

>heraldic colours to allow for deviation, so that and soldier could

>tell a friend, even if he had changed to a new tabard.

 

  My first response on reading this was "arrgh!" The entire point of heraldry

is to make sure that people are recognizable on the battlefield.  If every

member of a group is wearing their heraldic badge there should be no problem

with identification.  In fact, most of the heraldic devices and badges we get

are rejected simply because they aren't clearly recognizable at a distance.  

Clarity is one of the prime criteria for deciding the acceptability of a piece

of heraldry.

  That said, there are a limited number of colors for just the reason Herr

Peter suggests.  In fact, the variation possible in heraldic colors is circum-

stantial evidence that there was difficulty in standardizing colors.  It does

bother me at times that I enjoy an art form whose spectrum is covered by a set

of Crayola markers, but anyone who has seen the "Heraldry" in the Pern source-

book (from a fantasy workd by Anne McCaffery) will understand the problems

with

"Per pale blue and light blue, in base an erupting volcano brown."  

 

Lord Fairfax Aluricson

Canton of the Riding of Hawkland Moor

Barony of Northwoods, Midrealm

atterlep at vela.acs.oakland.edu

 

                  

From: com259h at vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au

Date: 22 Jan 91 03:26:53 GMT

 

leeu at alex.stacken.kth.se (Leif Euren) writes:

> Elaine NicMaoilan (<trifid at agora.rain.com> (Edward Fitzgerald)) writeth:

>> ... I find it hard to believe consistency was not possible, within

>> reason, in period!  (Not perfect matches, perhaps, but close enough

>> for the casual observer to not see a glaring difference....) Surely

>> weavers traded formulae and hanks of threads as samples?

>

> Consistency in shade of colour is *VERY* difficult to obtain if one

> has to resort to plant-dying, even in our Current Middle Ages, when we

> in fact know how to make pecise records of previous dyings.  And in

> the real Middle Ages, dyers did *NOT* trade their formulaes, as they

> were their wealth.

 

        My own affermation of this is mundane, but I think relevant. An

uncle of my mother worked for a textile company which performed all of

it's own dying, using dyes that it developed itself. My great-uncle was

involved in the formulating of these dyes and kept 2 books of the dye

formulas. One book was the correct one which he worked from and was

kept under strict security. The other book was not kept under strict

security, and the formulas were incorrect. This was the version which

my uncle's employer preferred his competitors to see.

 

        Were I a period weaver who had developed a particularly appealing

color, I'd try to keep it's formula, and hence the supply of cloth of that

color to myself. Why provide my competitors with income that should be mine

through my developing said color.

 

                                        In service, Wulfgang Brachwalder.

 

           Bull at vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au  OR  com259h at monu1.cc.monash.oz

                      Alias: Gareth Bull, The Opal Dragon

 

 

From: BERDANJ at YALEVM.BITNET (Amoret of Dragonship Haven)

Date: 24 Jan 91 14:40:39 GMT

 

Amoret of Dragonship Haven sends greetings to the Rialto and two notes of

interest....

 

1) Modern-day dying cannot get consistent results from bolt to bolt of fabric

either; it is usually necessary to buy all from one bolt in order to get a

consistent color in a large quantity of fabric.  This is a problem in

everything from 100% cotton to 100% polyester.  It is likewise a problem with

thread - different spools of the "same" color are not necessarily identical.

I

find it unlikely, then, that period dyers could have gotten anything like

perfect consistency from dye-lot to dye-lot.

 

                  

From: KGANDEK at mitvmc.mit.EDU (Kathryn Gandek)

Date: 23 Jan 91 21:58:44 GMT

 

Greetings from Catrin o'r Rhyd For

After reading the speculation on dye consistency and dyer secretiveness, I

asked a friend, Lady Elaine Courtenay, who has looked into period dying and

has

recreated period dye recipes.

According to her research, dye recipes were carefully guarded and handed down

from master to apprentice until the 16th century.  During the 16th century,

articles with dye recipes appear sporadically until 1548, when an entire book

detailing dye recipes was published.  So as far as secretiveness goes, it seems

to be true until the 16th century.

 

As far as consistency, Elaine had the following comments. The dyers worked

with consistent methods and recipes.  Furthermore, they knew about variations

in ingredients dependent on from where they came.  For example, it might take

more cochineal to make a certain red if the cochineal came from place A instead

of place B.  Does that mean that they could replicate colors to the point of

exact matches as in the aforementioned embroidery floss color example?  She

doesn't think they could have.  On the other hand, she believes that they could

have come quite close.  In her own recreation of dyes, she has come up with

very similar--although not identical--results, and she hasn't trained with a

guild for years.

 

Catrin (me) has one comment on the subject.  As I usually prefer that yarn for

a project I am making match exactly without variation, I buy it all out of

the same batch.  The differences are sometimes subtle, sometimes blatant, but

even modern technology doesn't always duplicate perfectly from batch to batch.

 

Catrin o'r Rhyd For            Kathryn Gandek

Barony of Carolingia           Boston area

East Kingdom                    kgandek%mitvmc.bitnet at mitvma.mit.edu

 

                  

From: DICKSNR at qucdn.queensu.ca ("Ross M. Dickson")

Date: 27 Jan 91 17:53:00 GMT

 

Belated greetings to the Rialto from Sarra Graeham, who has been marking

Grade 10 Science Exams, and hence has not been to the Rialto since last

Sunday ...

 

Herr Peder Klingrode (Leif Euren), quoting me, writes:

> > ... ground and processed lapis lazuli, could not be manufactured in

> > Europe until the 13th C.

> I don't really believe you. But then again, I may be wrong.

> Could you explain why this was so?

 

Lapis lazuli, although a beautiful deep blue when unground, is mostly

composed of a great deal of colourless stone interspersed with bits of

deep blue.  When ground and unprocessed, the pigment is a dull blueish

grey, and water precipitation, the usual method for purifying pigments,

won't separate out the blue.  To separate the deep blue pigment requires

"mixing the powdered lapis with a paste of wax and oil and resin, and

kneading the mixture under water or lye until the blue came out in the

water"  (Daniel V. Thompson, _The Materials and Techniques of Medieval

Painting_, Dover Books, 1956.)  The paste would be put through several

washes, with each wash becoming less blue than the last, and it was the

custom of corrupt druggists of the 15th C. to sell bags of Ultramarine

with the best blue on top, but the grey washings at the bottom.

 

The earliest European recipes for doing this appear in the 13th C., al-

though apparently the Persians had been making Ultramarine Blue since

"early times" and exporting it to Europe.  Just another example of how

technologically advanced that part of the world was compared to Europe

at the time.

 

     Sarra Graeham, Canton of Greyfells    |  Heather Fraser

     Barony of the Skraeling Althing       |  Kingston, Ontario, CANADA

     Principality of Ealdormere, Midrealm  |  c/o dicksnr at qucdn.queensu.ca

 

 

From: 6790753%356_WEST_58TH_5TH_FL%NEW_YORK_NY%WNET_6790753 at mcimail.COM ("KATMAN.WNETS385")

Date: 13 Jun 91 15:39:00 GMT

 

Lady Therica amused us with a tale of documenting

butter (and flavored butters) as used in period. She then tells of being told

green is not period for clothes.

   There is a portrait by Raphael (I'll post the actual date if anyone needs

it) painted sometime between 1450 and 1500 of "The Woman in Green." The

painting has a few other titles, I forget them all. This is of an Italian woman

wearing a GREEN dress. The dress is bottle green (looks like silk velvet, yum)

with rusty colored trim at the neck and shoulders, and large dark blue over

sleeves. It is worn over a white chemise with spanish-style blackwork bands. I

also beleive (have to check this out at home) that descriptions of clothes worn

by Beatrice d'Este and her sister Isabella list some green dresses.

   I do not know if green was period for early times, certainly I have seen

tapestries with green threads (trees, leaves, etc. - see the Unicorn Hunt

tapestries, et al) in them. "Prior to the advent of synthetic dyes, the

majority of good clear greens, oranges, and purples were produced by overdying

one primary color with another. Thus, the very early greens resulted from

overdyeing indigo with a clear yellow dye or vice versa. Some of these greens

were satisfactory for long exposure to light, and others were not." (Liles, p.

145)

   The problem is that "most natural yellow dyes are more or less fugitive to

light. It is for this reason that many old textiles show only weak yellows,

oranges, and greens." (Liles, p. 33) Thus, while green may have been worn, the

garments would eventually become more blue than green. Of course, if the

substance used to dye something yellow was not grown near where you lived, you

couldn't have worn green at all. Common yellows used were Saffron (Crocus

sativus), Turmeric (Curcuma longa), and Weld (Reseda luteola). I am not sure

exactly how much access groups of people would have had to all these

substances.

 

   The book I am quoting is

Liles, J.N. 1990._The Art and Craft of Natural Dyeing_. Knoxville, TN: The

   University of Tennessee Press.

ISBN: 0-87049-669-7 (cloth) 0-87049-670-0 (paper)

   A period source for dye recipes is

Rosetti, G. ]1548| 1969. _The Plictho of Instructions in the Art of the Dyers._

   (Translation of the first edition of 1548 by Edelstein and Borghetty).

   Cambridge: M.I.T. Press.

 

   The Plictho is not in print, but can be obtained by libraries through

inter-library loan.

 

Winifred de Schyppewallebotham

 

 

From: jane at STRATUS.SWDC.STRATUS.COM (Jane Beckman)

Date: 1 Nov 91 23:26:51 GMT

 

Sigh, not another pink/purple war.  And here I thought this thing was

reserved for petty costumer department folks at the Renaissance Faire...

 

It's very easy to prove that pink is period.  Take a look at paintings of

the period.  Lordie, look at all those *vibrant pink* gowns!  Who said the

Middle Ages were drab?  This caused a bit of scandal recently in art circles,

too, when they restored some of the lower murals of the Cistine Chapel and

found all these people who were wearing vibrantly-colored clothes.  The art

historians are now claiming that the restoration process must have somehow

changed the colors that Michaelangelo used, because the murals were "supposed to" be gloomy...

 

Of course, the term "pink" still referred to a plant, so they couldn't use

the word itself.  But then, yellow hair wasn't referred to as "blond" yet,

either.

 

ROYAL purple is made from murex.  There are lots of other ways to get "sad"

purples and various lavenders from natural dyes.

 

  -Jilara of Carrowlea  [jane at swdc.stratus.com]

 

 

From: 6790753%356_WEST_58TH_5TH_FL%NEW_YORK_NY%WNET_6790753 at mcimail.COM ("KATMAN.WNETS385")

Date: 4 Dec 91 15:28:00 GMT

 

A while back someone asked about the results of my dyeing with indigo via a

urine bath at Pennsic. It sort of worked. I had only a gallon of urine (I

didn't go advertising, and the crew of folks I camped with was not interested

in contributing. It was left to me, Ottar and the valiant-and-pregnant

Orianna). Because this was in an 8 gallon pot, it evaporated quickly and was

too shallow for my purposes.

The fabric did get blue, but I could not do the repeated dips needed to get it

to be a rich, deep blue (dipping in such a shallow pool of liquid disturbed the

sediment at the bottom which then changed the chemical balance in the bath,

rendering it useless for dyeing). When I have an outdoor place to do this

again, I will attempt it again. Next year I'll save up urine in advance.

The fabric smells really bad (I only washed it in Ivory liquid and vinegar). I

can't imagine wearing a garment that smelled like that. Maybe I'll try the

non-urine alkalai vats they used ("take ashes of lees..." lye anyone?) and see

if that smells better.

 

Winifred de Schyppewallebotham

(that's Middle English for "From the valley with the stream where the sheep in

their pretty blue fleeces were washed")(Nolite Secundo Flumine Natare)

Lee Katman == Thirteen/WNET == New York, NY

 

 

Re: pigments

6 Feb 92

From: amanda at visix.com (Amanda Walker)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Organization: Visix Software, Inc.

 

I second the recommendation of Auldhaefen Associates. They are by far

the most economical place I have found to buy period pigments, spices,

and all sorts of other Nifty Stuff.  They are non-profit, and act as

a "materials broker."  That is to say, they arrange to buy a bunch of

something, repackage it into smaller, more convenient packages (after

all, who needs 10 pounds of dragon's blood resin :)?), and resells it

at just enough to cover their costs.

 

They're also just real nice folks.

 

Arwen ferch Morgan

Ponte Alto, Atlantia

 

 

Bridge to Academe 2

21 May 92

From: carl at silver.lcs.mit.edu (Carl J.M. Alexander)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Organization: Organization???

 

northeastern.edu (Barbara Nostrand) writes:

>

>....[I]t is not necessary to limit the offer to just history

>departments.  There are also classics departments and medieval

>studies departments.  In addition there are individual researchers

>in art and music departments....

>

>[I]t is simply false that academics are uninterested in things

>which are of interest to us.  For example, musicologists are very

>interested in the music that we are interested in. (Some people

>get Ph.D. degrees for doing music history research and reconstructions

>of music within our period.)  Art historians are also intersted in

>our period.  There is very little that the SCA is interested in which

>will not find an academic in some department in some university who

>is also interested in it.  

Just as a for-instance, here's something I -- and I suspect many

others in the Society -- would love to have available as a resource,

but could never (unless I won the lottery) put together for myself.  

And it's a project that would be appropriate for PhD level research

in any of several fields -- Art History, Textiles, History of

Technology, Theater Arts....

A study of period dyes, with information for each dye on its

geographic distribution (& how it varied over time), its expense

(& how it varied over time), and other availablity-over-time data,

along with a listing of the pantone (or whatever standard system)

colors each dye could be expected to achieve with various fabrics.

The amount of research involved in puting together & documenting

such a compendium of information would be formidable.  But

imagine being able to walk into a fabric store with your pantone

chart & buy fabric *knowing* that the material, the weave, and

the color are authentic, and that your persona could have

afforded it.

Alexander of Kiev

Carl Alexander

carl at silver.lcs.mit.edu

 

 

Period dyes...

27 May 92

From: ilaine at panix.com (Liz Stokes)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC

 

Beth.Appleton at f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton) writes:

> CJA> A study of period dyes, with information for each dye on its

> CJA> geographic distribution (& how it varied over time), its expense

> CJA> (& how it varied over time), and other availablity-over-time data,

> CJA> along with a listing of the pantone (or whatever standard system)

> CJA> colors each dye could be expected to achieve with various fabrics.

>I realize that this is trivial compared to the project you describe, but

>there are a couple of sources.  I need to go find my book, but one of my  

>dye books *has* a color chart.  Some of the dyes are post-period, but it  

>does give you some natural dyes to look at.  Also, there is a nice  

>article on kermes and cochineal in __Cloth_and_Clothing_in_Medieval_      

>_Europe,_a_Collection_of_Essays.... (I'll go find the editor on that one  

>if someone needs it.  

        Please please. grovel even :)

I saw a book in the Wellesley library while I was a student there,

unfortunately I don't even remember the title, next time I'm up there I'll

have to track the durn thing down. It had color plates showing what colors

resulted from various ancient and medieval dies such as Murex and kermes.

Tyrian purple isn't what we call purple today, its more of a

choir-robe-burgundy. Ecclesiastical catalogs are great sources for medieval

style stuff like candelabras and silk brocades btw.

        There is an article in the Fall 1989 issue of Spin-Off about

medieval dying by Mary Hill. She was asked by an archaeologist to help

work out the dyes and dying methods used in some fabrics which had been

recovered from the Mary Rose, one of Henry VIII's battleships sunk in 1547

and recently raised.

        "He would need a supply of wool, dyed to medieval recipes, which he

could use to develop a technique for extracting the dye from the wool. the

extract would then be analyzed in a machine which would give a printout of

peaks and troughs. The printouts for these known recipes would then be used

to decode the printouts for unknown dye extracts. It would seem easier to

analyze solutions of dyes to generate the printouts to be used as standards,

but Paul felt that the dye is changed during the dying process; the whole

operation had to be performed to mimic the condition of the dye on the

artifacts."

        The whole story is fascinating, and at the end of the article she

gives directions and recipes wheeeeee! "Three weeks before your dye day,

collect urine and put it somewhere in a sealed container where no one will

notice the smell."  I haven't actually tried this yet :)

 

        The issue is still available from Interweave Press, the phone #

is (303) 669-7672. The same issue has an article about primitive Norwegian

sheep :) I've had a subscripton for about 6 years, mostly it's modern stuff,

but every so often there is a great article for SCA types.

                                                     -Ilaine

--

Liz Stokes         | Ilaine's EZ-Garb Workshop ....

Ilaine de Cameron  | "Take your sheep and convince him to take off all his

                   | wool and give it too you. Try challenging him to a game

ilaine at panix.com   | of strip-nine-man's-morris. Sheep are stupid, you'll win."

 

 

17 Jun 92

From: ilaine at panix.com (Liz Stokes)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC

 

        Yaakov brought up an excellent point about many period recipies and

such calling for things for philosophical rather than empirical reasons.

That was pretty much what was on my mind when I expressed skepticism about

the importance of urine from different types of people. However, there is

and interesting article in the latest issue of Spin-Off (which came yesterday).

It seems this spinning guild tried an experiment. Each member took 1 oz of

tulip tree leaves, 2 ounces of wool, and a precise list of instructions.

incredible range in color variation: dark greenish greys, pinkish beiges,

reddish tans, and yellow. The only difference was in the water (members had

streams, wells, or spring water). Whew. Brewers use mineral additives to

reproduce the flavor or particular beers made from especially hard water, I

guess the authenticity-crazed dyer should do the same :)

                                                       -Ilaine

--

Liz Stokes         | Ilaine's EZ-Pregnancy Test

Ilaine de Cameron  | ... "Now take the skein of handspun yarn out of the

                   | dyebath. If it is green, you are with child, if it

ilaine at panix.com   | is blue, you are not."

 

 

From: bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Cooking fires, woad, and other queries

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 93 01:08:33 GMT

 

Unto Stephen Bloch does Pagan le Chaunster send Greetings!

 

  > From "The Arcana of Arts and Sciences, or, Farmers' & Mechanics'

  > Manual: containing a great variety of Valuable Receipts and Useful

  > Discoveries, some of which were Never Before Published," M. Parker

  > 1824:

  >    Blue may be dyed with woad alone, which would give a permanent

  >    but not a deep blue; but if indigo be mixed with it, a very

  >    rich colour will be obtained.

 

This sort of comment about the fastness of woad and the brilliance of indigo

turns up all over the place.  I must admit I'd expected a dark/dull blue from

woad, though.  (It's coming on:  I'm still working on it.)

 

  > The author then goes on to describe ten recipes for blue fabric-dyes

  > of various qualities, using 1824 frontier technology.  In addition to

  > woad, indigo, and bran, some common ingredients are madder, potash,

  > weld (?), alum, and white tartar.  

 

Weld is a plant which gives one of the clearest and most lasting yellow dyes.  

I'm surprised to see it in a list of blue-making ingredients, but I prefer

red-blues to yellow-blues.

 

Madder is the traditional red dye (with madder, weld and woad you can get a

long way).  British police wear blue uniforms, and it seems that until 1932

they were dyed with a mixure of woad, indigo, madder, bran, and slaked lime.

 

Pagan

________________________________________________________________________

Jennifer Geard                         bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz

Christchurch, New Zealand

 

 

From: winifred at trillium.soe.umich.EDU (Lee Katman)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: madder in woad vats

Date: 20 Mar 1993 11:10:13 -0500

 

Hi,

Sorry about not quoting the relevant article, I'm not good

at using this funky editor...

When madder is put into woad vats, as I understand it,

it is to act as a nutrient for the fermentation, as is the

bran. To get color out of madder, it has to be cooked pretty

well, and the fabric has to be mordanted (something that

indigo/woad dyeing doesn't require). Apparently lime and

microorganism (bran & madder provide food for the micro-

organisms) vats were even used up to the early part of this

cntury in Africa and the Appalachian sections of the US, and

are still used in Japan. The slaked lime mentioned is also

called Calcium Oxide.

Liles (my favorite source!) says that madder, bran, molasses,

dates and raisins were added to fermentation vats as sugar

sources for the fermentation. Another hint, you apparently

do not want your wool to be in contact with the sediment

at the bottom of the vat, so it should be suspended in the

liquid. You can apparently leave wool in for a while, the

alkalinity in urine vats is of the most gentle sort.

Winifred

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: madder in woad vats

From: bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard)

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 93 01:16:37 GMT

 

Hi Winifrid,

 

Er, I though if you boiled madder you released the yellow dye from it, which

turned madder reds orange.  I know that if you overheat woad it yields pinks

(which can be handy as an all-in-one overdying process for lavender shades if

you mordant with alum).

 

If the madder is just used for fermentation I guess I can save it for real

use in something else -- I've had no trouble getting bran to ferment so far.  

:-)  Thanks for the comments.

 

Pagan

________________________________________________________________________

Jennifer Geard                         bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz

Christchurch, New Zealand

 

 

From: haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Saffron Shirts

Date: 21 May 1993 20:11:55 GMT

Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation - DECwest Engineering

 

Greetings from Fiacha,

 

Some time ago there was a thread on saffron and the saffron shirts of the

Scots and the Irish.

 

A couple of days ago I recived a gift of _Irish Spinning, Dyeing and Weaving_

by Lillias Mitchell which containsd the following:-

 

...this is bourne out by the only recipe we have, which is given by Good, an

Englishman, who was for a time priest and schoolmaster at Limerick, and whose

account of Ireland, written in about 1566, is incorporated in Camden's

Britannia. He says: "With boughs, bark and leaves of poplar trees beaten

together, they dye their loose shirts of a saffron colour (which are now much

out of use) mixing the bark of the wild Arbut tree with salt and saffron. In

dyeing, their way is not to boil the thing long, but to let it soak for some

days together in wine that the colour may be deeper and more durable."

 

Does anyone have any suggestions as to where I might find "Camden's Britannia"?

 

I am assuming that the saffron used is in the process is a token trace to

satisfy local 'truth in advertizing' requirements.

 

        Fiacha

 

p.s. Thank you, Brid.

 

 

From: motto at cbnewsf.cb.att.com (mary.rita.otto)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: dyeing in the 9th c

Date: 21 Jun 93 21:43:24 GMT

Organization: AT&T

 

In article <1993Jun18.190239.11305 at bcars6a8.bnr.ca> Henry.Troup at BNR.CA writes:

>In Hrolf Kraki's Saga (as interpreted by Poul Anderson) there's

>reference to red from lichen dye.  By extrapolation, blue and green from

>lichens would also be available.

>You can email Dame Enid care of me, BTW.

>

>Henry Troup - H.Troup at BNR.CA (Canada)

 

When the Roman invaders came to Gaul, they encountered fighters

who had dyed themselves blue with woad.  Dyes also existed for

green and red.  Mixing these could produce a wide variety of

colors.  Purple was difficult to make bright because of chemical

reactions between the dyes which caused it to turn brownish, and

hence, was expensive and rare.  Yellow was also well known and used,

as was bleaching, using chemicals and sunlight.  I have some

documentation for this at home in a book on Medieval Tapestry

Designs -- if you'd like the reference, please let me know.

 

So, pretty much all the colors are available in the 9th century.

 

Mary

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: dyeing in the 9th c

From: bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard)

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 93 00:18:16 GMT

 

Unto Henry, Mary, and the other goodly Folk of the Rialto does Pagan send

Greeting!

 

If you're searching for C9th Scandinavian dyestuffs I'd suggest starting with

the Compleat Anachronist #59 _Women's Garb in Northern Europe, 450-100 C.E._

by Christina Krupp and Carolyn A. Priest-Dorman (Mistress Thora Sharptooth,

who sometimes appears here).  Its discussion of dyeing is brief, but it has a

wonderful bibliography with references like:

 

    Walton, Penelope, "Dyes of the Viking Age: A Summary of Recent Work,"

        in _Dyes in History and Archaeology_ 7, 1988.

 

> >In Hrolf Kraki's Saga (as interpreted by Poul Anderson) there's

> >reference to red from lichen dye.  By extrapolation, blue and green from

> >lichens would also be available.

 

Lichens produce dye by two methods:  fermentation or boiling.  Fermentation

gives the interesting colours:  mostly pinks, purples, reds, and oranges.  In

my experience boiling tends to produce yellows (at least in New Zealand).  

Yellow is the easiest and most common colour from natural dyeing.  Oh well.

 

The colour you get from fermenting fermentable lichens is not related to the

colour of the lichen you started with.  If you can produce blue and green

from lichen I'd really like to know, since they're two of the most difficult

colours...

 

 

> When the Roman invaders came to Gaul, they encountered fighters

> who had dyed themselves blue with woad.  

 

I posted on this some months back:  there are three Roman sources which

mention the bodypainting activities of the Ancient Britons, and they each

give a different colour (blue, green, and black).  These colours can all be

produced from woad, but blue's the most difficult.  Who knows?

 

 

> Dyes also existed for green and red.  

 

Red, yes, but green?  If you know of a decent single dye for green, please

tell -- all the good greens I know of require a two-stage process where you

dye them with yellow and then overdye with woad-blue.

 

 

> Mixing these could produce a wide variety of colors.

 

Yup.  Think brick-red (madder:  Rubia tinctoria), slightly greenish blue

(woad:  Isatis tinctoria), and clear yellow (weld:  Reseda luteola).  The

active components of these three dyes were found in textiles from Sutton Hoo.  

With these primaries you can overdye to make orange, green, and purple.

 

 

> Purple was difficult to make bright because of chemical

> reactions between the dyes which caused it to turn brownish, and

> hence, was expensive and rare.  

 

Hmmmm...  by the ninth century the use of the murex shellfish-based Tyrian

purple (the stuff on Roman toga bands, which had these problems) was in

decline.  On the other hand there's a type of lichen purple which was pretty

widespread (and apparently fashionable in Viking Ireland) and you can make

purples by overdyeing woad with madder.

 

The language of colour is fascinating and full of traps: we'd probably call

Tyrian purple "magenta."

 

 

> Yellow was also well known and used,

 

Too right.  As I type I'm looking at one of the deepest and most aniline-

looking yellows I've encountered.  It's from onion skins on a mostly-linen

underdress, and I don't feel I can any longer repeat the old comments about

natural colours being tasteful and muted.

 

 

The colour of dyed fabrics depends on the fabric, the life-history of the

dyestuff, and the dye process.  Scandinavian fabrics were predominantly wool

and linen, and although well-scoured wool takes dye well, linen resists all

but woad and tannin-based dyes (like onion skins and bark).  The growing

conditions of the dyeplants and cloth-fibres (etc) make a difference to the

colour -- I never know whether the colours I get in New Zealand are anything

like the shades of Scandinavia, for instance, and linen grown here will never

be as white as Irish linen.  Most frustrating.  The dye-process may involve

mordanting (clubmoss is usually replaced with a little alum and less cream of

tartar nowadays), fermentation using bran and/or stale urine (just don't ask

my housemates about it, okay?), and heating for certain lengths of time at

certain temperatures (madder contains a red dye which is released at below

simmering temperatures, and a yellow dye which comes out with boiling.  If

you want red rather than orange, you have to keep the dyebath just below a

simmer.).  All that sort of thing.

 

Uhmmm... neutrals are easy.  The native northern sheep were brown anyway, and

there's a range of bark-based dyes which produce pink through tan, brown and

black (though getting a good black is quite surprisingly difficult).  

 

Another point to remember is that there seems to have been a great trade in

both fabrics and dyestuffs at the time you mention. Underdresses from Kiev,

fine fabrics from Damascus, walnut shells etc imported for dyeing, are all

found at Scandinavian sites.  Then there's the Han dynasty silk brocade in a

C10th grave at Birka.  Makes you think: if A trades with B who trades with

C...

 

The moral of the story is that Viking colours are not restricted by the local

flora.  Iceland didn't have to make do with lichens and dwarf-birch-bark, and

there's some seriously strange documentable Viking clothing out there.

 

  Pagan

  (aka Signy Ragnarsdottir)

________________________________________________________________________

Jennifer Geard                         bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz

Christchurch, New Zealand

 

 

From: Sheri.Stanley at f326.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Sheri Stanley)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: dyeing in the 9th c

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 93 08:35:00 PDT

Organization: FidoNet node 1:3603/326 - SPPE, St Petersburg FL

 

HT>|> > >In Hrolf Kraki's Saga (as interpreted by Poul Anderson) there's

HT>|> > >reference to red from lichen dye.  By extrapolation, blue and green fr

HT>|> > >lichens would also be available.

HT>...

HT>|>The colour you get from fermenting fermentable lichens is not related to t

HT>|>colour of the lichen you started with.  If you can produce blue and green

HT>|>from lichen I'd really like to know, since they're two of the most difficu

HT>|>colours...

 

HT>I was extrapolating from the Harris tweed greens and blues. The real

HT>stuff is said to be dyed with "crottle", a lichen.

 

As far as I've been able to ascertain, the colors to be gotten from

fermenting lichens are all in the red/purple color range. Yellow and

brown are fairly common from using lichens simply boiled, and you can

sometimes get a greenish yellow (pretty gross color, actually). However,

my experiments & reading have never once turned up the possibility of

blue or green from lichens (and probably a good thing!). Harris Tweed

greens & blues are dyed w/indigo or woad (w/a yellow overdye for the

green). The crottle is used in other colors, brown or yellow. It

accounts for the distinctive smell of Harris Tweeds.

 

Blues can be gotten from indigo, woad, dyer's knotweed. Greens are

usually gotten by overdyeing, but some plants will produce a greeny

color which can be strengthened by using copper as a mordant.

 

Grania

--  

Internet: Sheri.Stanley at f326.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG

UUCP:     ...!myrddin!mechanic!326!Sheri.Stanley

Note: Mechanic is a free gateway between FIdonet<>USENET

      for the TAMPA BAY,FL. metropolitan area.

 

 

From: palmer at cis.ohio-state.edu (sharon ann palmer)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: DYESTUFFS

Date: 12 Aug 1993 11:36:15 -0400

Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science

 

jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray) writes:

>There's a periodical called something like "dyes in Archaeology". An

 

Please post this reference.

 

>I haven't come across St. John's Blood, is that another name for

>kermes?

 

Its another insect in the same family.

 

_Prehistoric Textiles_ by E.J.W. Barber has a nice section on the

various red insect dyes.  Some have carminic acid, some kermesic

acid as the coloring agent.

 

On pg. 224, "Late Neolithic textile fibers dyed red with kermes,...

as well as kermes itself, were discovered in cave at Adaouste

in southern France (Cotte and Cotte 1916, 764)" from the bib:

Cotte, J and C. Cotte. 1916 "examen d'un pa^te pre'historique"

_Comptes Rendus se l'Acade'mie des Sciences 162: 762-64.

 

Barber is worth reading for anyone interested in early spinning,

weaving, or dying.

 

Ranvaig         palmer at cis.ohio-state.edu

 

 

From: longo at eggo.usf.edu (Andrea Longo)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: DYESTUFFS

Date: 13 Aug 1993 06:30:04 GMT

Organization: University of South Florida, Department of Computer Science and Engineering

 

In article <24do1fINNel9 at iguana.cis.ohio-state.edu> palmer at cis.ohio-state.edu (sharon ann palmer) writes:

>

>_Prehistoric Textiles_ by E.J.W. Barber has a nice section on the

>various red insect dyes.  Some have carminic acid, some kermesic

>acid as the coloring agent.

>

>

>Barber is worth reading for anyone interested in early spinning,

>weaving, or dying.

>

 

I think I saw a paperback version for a somewhat less obscene amount of money.

Anyone looking to acquire should check this out.  I agree that it is a

wonderful source for textile people.  

 

Asleif

 

 

From: jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Dyestuffs

Date: 17 Aug 93 09:46:52

Organization: STC Technology Ltd., London Road, Harlow, UK.

 

Dyes in History and Archaeology 7 (Papers presented at the 7th annual

meeting, York 1988) Published by Textile Research on behalf of the

Association of Researchers into Dyes in History and Archaeology, York

1989 ISSN 0952-2476

I bought my copy at the Jorvik Viking centre York U.K. for two pounds

ninety five pence. It saya further copies of this volume can be

obtained from:

P. Walton

Textile Research

12 Bootham Terrace

York Y03 7DH

England

Cheques, money orders or transfers should be made payable to 'Dyes in

History and Archaeology' Giro account no: 63-935-5906

possibly relevant papers included are:

D. Cardon: Mediterranean kermes and kermes dying

M.C. Whiting: The analysis of madder and related Dyes

H. Schweppe: Identification of red madder and insect dyes by thin

layer chromatography [abstract only]

P. Walton Dyes of the Viking Age: a summary of recent Work

 

Penelope Walton's paper says kermes was found on imported silks in

Viking Age England

 

Another paper mentioning kermes is

'Dyes and Wools in Iron Age Textiles from Norway and Denmark' Penelope

Walton, Journal of Danish Archaeology, vol 7, 1988, pp144-158

textile number c348 from Veien is listed as dyed with 'Polosh

Cochineal'

textile number B4590 type 4 is listed as dyed with 'kermes or Polish

coch.'

Both Veim and Evebo Eide are listed as "Scandinavian or north European

in origin from late Roman/Migration Period"

 

JSDC Volume 105 November 1989 has an article by A Verhecken entitled

"dyeing with kermes is still alive!" and giving details on commercial

Kermes dyeing in Tunis, this is only done 3 or 4 times a year. The

author of the paper beleives he has found the only remaining

commercial kermes dyers.

 

JSDC Volume 106 May/June 1990 has an article entitled "Kermes, a Dying

dye" by Dominique Cardon, which begins:

"Kermes, the pea-sized parasite of a prickly evergreen Mediterranean

oak, is the source of one of the most exclusive dyes of all times:

scarlet. In ancient and medieval times it was second only to the

imperial purple..."

the article goes on to say the name kermes is from the Persian kirmis

from the indo-european root kwrmi (worm). The name originally

described the Armenian or Arrarat cochineal (Porphyrophora hameli) but

came to be applied to other red dye yielding insects.

Dominique Cardon the describes dyes obtained from 5 different insects

in the kermes family and identifies Kermes vermilio the species

yielding the red dye. Pretty similar stuff to the paper in 'Dyes in

History and Archaeology',

 

Hope thats of some use. If you want more specific information let me

know & I'll see what I can find. Sadly since I stopped being a student

I don't have easy access to a good library, but I still have a huge

pile of papers at home I can look through. It's not the same though, I

thimk I'm addicted to libraries and suffering withdrawl symptoms!

 

If anyone wants a copy of the Dyes in History and Archaeology and has

trouble sorting out some U.K. currency I would be happy to do swaps

for some SCA literature (I have a very old copy of the known world

handbook, presumably it has changed since, & it sounds like a lot more

stuff has been produced aswell)

 

Jennifer

Vanaheim Vikings

(not SCA, just passing through the Rialto)

 

 

From: bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: dyestuffs, kermes

Date: Wed, 18 Aug 93 06:20:44 GMT

Organization: Lethargy Inc.

 

Greetings from Pagan, in a flying visit...

 

Grania asked whether there was evidence that kermes was used in pre-1000

Scandinavia and/or the British Isles.

 

When I asked Mistress Thora Sharptooth a similar question some months back (I

was solely interested in Vikings), she replied that--as far as she'd been

able to determine--they did not themselves use the stuff. Apparently kermes

turns up on imported silks, but not on wools or linens.

 

Yes, it is a pity.  All I've got from madder so far is a deep salmon -- any

suggestions?

 

  Pagan le Chaunster

________________________________________________________________________

Jennifer Geard                         bloodthorn at sloth.equinox.gen.nz

Christchurch, New Zealand

 

 

From: jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: dyestuffs, kermes

Date: 19 Aug 93 09:21:00

Organization: STC Technology Ltd., London Road, Harlow, UK.

 

I posted something earlier about analyses of Dyes on Viking Age

textiles in England. Your Mistress Thora Sharptooth may be

correct. In "Textiles Cordage and Raw Fibres from 16-22 Coppergate"

are results of tests undertaken by Dr G.W. Taylor. Textiles analyed

are 9th Century CE to medieval from 3 sites in York. Over 34 samples

were dyed with madder (5 were silk the rest wool), but only 3 pieces

of silk were dyed with kermes (a silk tabby weave textile, a silk

ribbon, and a silk reliquary pouch.)

The accompanying text comments:

"Kermes was imported into England in the Medieval Period, and is to be

found in the better-quality testiles of that period. It was always an

expensive dye, however, and it is not surprising that the cheaper

madder was the more common red to be used in the wool textiles"

However bear in mind that dye testing is a fairly recent innovation in

the archaeology of textiles, so some kermes red may yet appear on

English wool. But it would probably have belonged to the period

equivalent of a millionare! Dyes on linens are a bit more

problematical, as most surviving samples are too carbonised to analyse

successfully for dye content.

You can get brighter colours from madder by adding chalk to the

dyebath, a friend of mine had good results using alum mordant then

adding ammonia to the dyebath. Be sure not to overheat or the dye goes

a bronze colour instead of red. Use the freshest root you can get,

chopped fine with a food processor, or grated. I have only dyed with

madder powder so far which gives a brownish brick red, no matter how

cool you keep the dyebath. I've just got hold of some root & am hoping

it will come out brighter. If your colour is salmon maybe you just

don't have enough madder in the dyebath?

Jennifer

(Not SCA just passing the Rialto & stopped for a gossip)

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: hwt at bcarh11a.bnr.ca (Henry Troup)

Subject: Re: dyestuffs, kermes

Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada

Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1993 17:15:27 GMT

 

In article <JAB2.93Aug19092100 at bhars243.stl.stc.co.uk>, jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray) writes:

 

|> a bronze colour instead of red. Use the freshest root you can get,

|> chopped fine with a food processor, or grated. I have only dyed with

|> madder powder so far which gives a brownish brick red, no matter how

|> cool you keep the dyebath. I've just got hold of some root & am hoping

|> it will come out brighter. If your colour is salmon maybe you just

|> don't have enough madder in the dyebath?

 

My wife, Dame Enid, has done a lot of madder dyeing. We (which often means me) pound the dried root in a big mortar and pestle. The first bit off the root gives the brown - we separate it. The next third of the the pounding gives the best reds. The last thirdis discarded. It's plant cores and is muddy again.

 

She made a lovely pink baby blanket by letting the madder bath ferment (no additions needed, it ferments by itself).  That was over two pounds of wool in six or so dyebaths.  Consistent madder dyeing is possible, but takes a lot of care.

 

Jennifer, we have madder growing in the garden. We've never used fresh root - I presume it needs to be dried before use? Do you know?

 

Before that, we got our best madder from a supplier in Godalming, England, whose name escapes me at present.  I know that she grew her own root.

 

--

Henry Troup - H.Troup at BNR.CA (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions

"The minority possess their equal rights, which equal laws must protect" - TJ

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: gwennis at jcnpc.cmhnet.org (Gwennis Mooncat)

Subject: Re: dyestuffs, kermes

Organization: Homebrew Virtual Reality Labs

Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1993 00:52:24 GMT

 

greetings!  glad some of us are still on line this week...8-)

 

i, too, have not managed to get real red from madder.  i have tried whole

rooots and powdered, keeping the temp low, pH shifts, mordanting first and in

the same bath (doesn't work too well together).  the best i can do is dark

orangey-red, or screaming neon orange (with tin).  i also found that using , by

weight, 2 X fiber weight gives the most color, then doing exhaust baths.  yes,

i know, that is an excessive amount, but it gave great color.

 

glad so many are interested in real dyes...8-)

 

gwennis

 

mistress gwynydd ni gelligaer, ol

march of tirnewydd, barony middle marches, mk

columbus, oh

 

 

From: KEITHS at KSUVM.BITNET (Lisbet)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: dyestuffs

Date: 22 Aug 1993 13:37:17 -0400

Organization: The Internet

 

I think that in his class at Vertigo II Richard Barbarossa said something

about the British Redcoat Red being from madder.  If I remember rightly,

he said there's a brighter vein in the root and that small children with

sharp knives peeled off the less bright stuff and that it took a very

large number of roots to get enough bright veins to do any worthwhile

amount of cloth.  Of course, being a terminally worried parent I keyed

in on the *small children* with *sharp knives* part and I could be

misremembering which plant the dyestuff was from.

 

Replies to BETHS at KSUVM.KSU.EDU  (Reply will send it to my husband.)

 

 

From: PRIEST at vaxsar.vassar.EDU (CAROLYN PRIEST-DORMAN)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Dyestuffs (kermes)

Date: 27 Aug 1993 09:02:04 -0400

Organization: The Internet

 

Subject: Dyestuffs

 

Unto the Fishyfolk of the Rialto, greeting from Thora Sharptooth!

 

I missed seeing most of you at Pennsic, although I had the pleasure of meeting

a few of you briefly.  Next year we won't be camped with royalty, we promise!

 

Catching up on my digests, I find that while I was at Pennsic, Grania From

Trimaris wrote:

 

>Perhaps someone can help w/a personal quest of mine. I am searching for

>primary evidence of the existence and/or use of Kermes or St. John's

>Blood prior to 1000 C.E. I have searched in vain so far (though I'm

>pretty certain its use didn't just spring up overnight), and I'd love to

>hear if anyone has any pertinent info.

 

FIBER FREAKERY ALERT; IF YOU DON'T APPRECIATE DYEING OR EARLY

PERIOD TEXTILES, QUIT NOW!

 

From what I have been able to determine, kermes (Kermes vermilio)

was used in eastern Mediterranean silk dyeing well before its

eventual importation into western and northern Europe. Here are

some sample references for pre-1000 examples of its use. (The confusion

over bug nomenclature has been taken into account, and only references

to the "true" kermes, backed up by chemical evidence of the dyeing

agent kermesitic acid, have been listed here below.)

 

     Two silk textiles from Period 4B of Viking Age Jorvik, circa

     930-975 CE, catalogued in Penelope Walton, TEXTILES, CORDAGE

     AND RAW FIBRE FROM 16-22 COPPERGATE, Vol. 17:5 of THE

     ARCHAEOLOGY OF Y0RK (1989):  1342, "Fragments, largest

     145x30mm, of dark brown loose tabby, 18/Z/0.1 x 23/I/0.4.

     Dyed with ?kermes."  1355, "Mid brown ribbon, 135x19mm, made

     up of two similar pieces, 100 and 40mm long, stitched

     together, tabby, with simple selvedges, Wa/48-52/S x We/30-

     36/S, c. 90 warps wide.  Dyed with kermes."  (p. 437)  Also,

     1408, the Jorvik reliquary pouch (although not necessary pre-

     1000), included a kermes-dyed samite outer pouch. (p. 438)

 

     Three textiles listed in Dominique Cardon, Alain Colombini,

     and Brigitte Oger, "Analysis of Medieval Red Dyes by HPLC,

     with Special Emphasis on the Insect Dyes," DYES IN HISTORY AND

     ARCHAEOLOGY 8 (1989), Table 8, p. 30:  MHT Lyon #34-872, 6th-

     7th century "Persian rider's coat," lined with a kermes-dyed

     textile mordanted with iron; MHT Lyon #12-574, another 6th-

     7th century Persian coat, with mohair "ornaments" dyed with

     kermes; Reims Cathedral, St. Remi's Shroud, before 892 CE,

     kermes-dyed silk weft.  

 

     "While exotic dyes such as kermes and (perhaps) Armenian

     cochineal appear on Middle Eastern textiles from classical

     times, nevertheless madder seems to have been very generally

     used, and most likely to give red shades.  On British textiles

     (or rather, those found in British archaeological

     investigations), the only other red dye found is kermes and,

     as expected, this appears only on textiles that were probably

     imported."  (George W. Taylor, "Reds and purples:  from the

     classical world to pre-conquest Britain," TEXTILES IN NORTHERN

     ARCHAEOLOGY, ed. Penelope Walton and John-Peter Wild [London:

     Archetype Publications, 1990], p. 43)

 

I suggest that investigating the Byzantine (or perhaps the Spanish)

silk industry might be the best way to go about documenting the use

of kermes before 1000.

 

***********************************************************************

Carolyn Priest-Dorman                     Thora Sharptooth

Poughkeepsie, NY                   Frosted Hills ("where's that?")

priest at vassar.edu                      East Kingdom

            Gules, three square weaver's tablets in bend Or

***********************************************************************

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: gwennis at jcnpc.cmhnet.org (Gwennis Mooncat)

Subject: Re: dyestuffs, kermes

Organization: Homebrew Virtual Reality Labs

Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1993 02:29:58 GMT

 

greetings!  (my editor seems to have stopped quoting for some reason..?)

 

about madder....i think we don't get real red for all of the reasons you

mentioned, plus unknown ones? 8-)  maybe someone growing it will run a series

of experiments for us.  trying it over several years of growth, different soil

pH, fresh roots, roots dried for different lengths of time, etc.

 

any takers?

 

about sandlewood...i've only tried samples, using 1 oz of wood chips.  i used

an alcohol extraction, and got an amazing, vibrant deep red-orange, completely

different from madder-color.  i haven't tried just soaking and cooking, and i

haven't run washfast or lightfast tests on it..yet.. but it really does give a

beautiful color.   i cold water soaked it, btw.

 

indigo in urine...my apprentice is fermenting a batch for me right now.  (she

has outdoor space behind an auto salvage shop,  smell no problem...8-) )  we're

intending on trying it out this week, depending on its status.  she's supposed

to check it today for me, so we can try it monday evening, i hope.  we're

usuing the egyptian indigo a friend sent me last year. i'll post about it if

we get anything worth posting about.!

 

that's it for now.  anyone else doing anything?

 

gwennis

 

mistress gwynydd ni gelligaer, ol

march of tirnewydd, barony middle marches, mk

tarkhan, khanate basking lizard

columbus, oh

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: jael at sage.cc.purdue.edu (Jael)

Subject: Re: dyestuffs, kermes

Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1993 23:04:14 GMT

 

In article <1993Aug30.022958.2255 at jcnpc.cmhnet.org> gwennis at jcnpc.cmhnet.org (Gwennis Mooncat) writes:

>greetings!  (my editor seems to have stopped quoting for some reason..?)

>about madder....i think we don't get real red for all of the reasons you

>an alcohol extraction, and got an amazing, vibrant deep red-orange, completely

>different from madder-color.  i haven't tried just soaking and cooking, and i

>haven't run washfast or lightfast tests on it..yet.. but it really does give a

>beautiful color.   i cold water soaked it, btw.

>gwennis

>

 

I think I've just had experience with this...I had a bag of saunders (which

I think is ground sandlewood bark, or something else having to do with

sandlewood) break in one of the boxes I was bringing home from pennsic.

 

Every damp cloth I used to clean up the mess (fortunately the box was camping

gear, not garb) is now a lovely pale maroon shade that doensn't want to wash

out.  So I can testify that  saunders produces a lovely reddish color -

assuming it usually colors the things you WANT to  be red! :-) :-) :-)

 

 

 

From: Sheri.Stanley at f326.n3603.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Sheri Stanley)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: dyestuffs, kermes

Date: Fri, 03 Sep 93 09:12:00 PDT

Organization: FidoNet node 1:3603/326 - SPPE, St Petersburg FL

 

GM>mentioned, plus unknown ones? 8-)  maybe someone growing it will run a serie

GM>of experiments for us.  trying it over several years of growth, different so

GM>pH, fresh roots, roots dried for different lengths of time, etc.

 

Sigh. We can only hope.....

 

(I *wish* I had a big yard!)

 

GM>about sandlewood...i've on;y tried samples, using 1 oz of wood chips.  i use

GM>an alcohol extraction, and got an amazing, vibrant deep red-orange, complete

GM>different from madder-color.  i haven't tried just soaking and cooking, and

GM>haven't run washfast or lightfast tests on it..yet.. but it really does give

GM>beautiful color.   i cold water soaked it, btw.

 

I've been using it powdered...just soaking doesn't seem to give a

particularly good color. Alcohol extraction's about the best bet. It's

not overly fast (well, faster than alkanet, but not as fast as, say,

cochineal).

 

 

GM>indigo in urine...my apprentice is fermenting a batch for me right now.  (sh

GM>has outdoor space behind an auto salvage shop, smell no problem...8-) )  we

GM>intending on trying it out this week, depending on its status.  she's suppos

GM>to check it today for me, so we can try it monday evening, i hope.  we're

GM>usuing the egyptian indigo a friend sent me last year.  i'll post about it i

GM>we get anything worth posting about.!

 

Have you tried doing the "no work" method? Apparently (I haven't tested

it yet) you take a greasy fleece and put it in a sealed container w/the

indigo and leave it in the sun for several weeks. The suint is supposed

to cause the reduction. Of course, I imagine you'd get a slightly

variegated look, but if you're dyeing in the wool, you'd get that

anyway, really. I'm hoping to try it the next time I get a fleece. It

would sure cut down on the work!

 

I finished the piece I was weaving (which will be turned into seat

cushions for events and kid's garb), and I'm still spinning to be able

to weave off the homespun on my table loom (I counted the skeins twice -

how embarrassing).

 

Hey, got any hat patterns from early Scandinavia? I'm trying to design

my next project for the Gulf Wars laurel's "cultural exchange" (everyone

brings an entry and goes home w/someone else's entry), and the last two

years I've entered hats, so I thought I'd stay with the hat motif

here....

 

Ta,

Grania

--  

Internet: mechanic.fidonet.org

 

 

From: palmer at cis.ohio-state.edu (sharon ann palmer)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: dyestuffs

Date: 2 Sep 93 23:21:31 GMT

Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science

 

In article <JAB2.93Aug31151202 at bhars243.stl.stc.co.uk> jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray) writes:

 

>I thought the british redcoat red was an insect dye. Certainly at one

...

>The point of all this rambling is that at one point the british

>redcoats were dyed with an insect dye. That doesn't mean that they

>didn't use madder at some other point though.

 

Millia Davenport _The Book of Costume_ pg 414 "European Dystuffs"

"The madder of the Low Countries is the fast red of military and

hunting coats until XIXc.  The kermes of the cardinal's red gowns..."

I dont know her sources for this though.

 

A point is that while madder and kermes would both be called red,

they are very different colors.  Madder tends towards orange while

cochineal, and I assume kermes, tend towards purple.

 

Ibid. About natural dyes "their colors have a subtle varied richness

of which we have been deprived by standardization and fast colors."

 

Ranvaig (Sharon Palmer)

reply to sapalmer at magnusug.acs.ohio-state.edu

 

 

From: gwennis at infinet.com (Gwennis Mooncat)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Period Black Ink/Dye

Date: 17 Mar 1994 23:29:04 GMT

Organization: InfiNet - Internet Access (614/268-3639)

 

greetings from mistress gwennis:

 

on making black ink or dye:

 

you might try boiling the galls in an iron kettle.  this is how i prefer to

prepare various dyes requiring iron.  be sure to strain it well.  if you do

choose to use iron filings, know that they are difficult to strain out

completely.  i remember a dyed, knitted hat that was entered in an a&s faire

many years ago.  when i was finished judging it (a very well made hat) my

lap was full of iron filings. i was glad that i had not tried on the hat;

however, the maker ran it through many more washes and finally removed all

the excess iron. i saw it recently, and it was still a nice brown.

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: leeu at celsiustech.se (Leif Euren)

Subject: Re: Period Black Ink/Dye

Organization: CelsiusTech AB

Date: Sun, 20 Mar 1994 10:58:11 GMT

 

Mistress Gwennis wrote:

> you might try boiling the galls in an iron kettle.

 

I've made ink from a period recipy for some 5 years know, at it

prescribes gall nuts (correct word?) and green vitrol (iron sulphate).

I've never tried to make it in a iron kettle, but I believe the result

is better (i.e. blacker) with the vitriol.  Also, an iron kettle will

be used up in the end.

 

It is true that this ink is corrosive to the base.  I've seen medieval

manuscripts made on paper, where all the text, and the underlying

paper, was "gone".  The easiest way to read it was to hold it up to

the light, and let the it shine through the letters. Vellum and

parchment take this better, and the acidity helps the ink to stick.

 

  your humble servant

  Peder Klingrode                         | Leif Euren   Stockholm, Sweden

  Holmrike, Nordmark, Drachenwald         | leeu at celsiustech.se

 

 

From: gwennis at infinet.com (Gwennis Mooncat)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: dyeing with onions  (was Re: HELLO..)

Date: 6 May 1994 04:26:32 GMT

Organization: InfiNet - Internet Access (614/224-3410)

 

Kathleen Costello (costellk at scooby.beloit.edu) wrote:

: BTW How do you use onion skins to dye fabric?  Any tips or sources

: on procedure would be gratefully accepted.  I would like to start spinning

: and dyeing my own wool using period techniques this summer.

 

greetings!  start collecting the skins.....the more you use per weight of

fiber, the richer/darker the color.  be aware that onion skin dye is not

light fast and will fade quite a bit over a year or two, depending on how

much sun it gets.  my 5 year old samples are very pale and peaked looking

now.  which dye you use depends on what's available and what use you are

intending for the fiber.

 

many mundane dye books are on the market with the basic info, but look for

Liles, (jim, i think)  'the art and craft of natural dyeing'  (my apprentice

has my copy right now, so i can't check the name).  he has lots of

historical info in it and pretty pictures.  

 

of course, i could mention the complete anachronist #41, dyestuffs, but

folks might think i'm bragging....8-)

 

gwennis

 

whose new .sig file is confusing the heck out of other newsgroups....

 

************************************************************************

mistress gwynydd ni gelligaer, ol, called gwennis

tarkhanum, basking lizard, great darke horde

current residence: shire of tirnewydd, barony middle marches, midrealm

aka columbus, ohio

 

 

From: gwennis at infinet.com (Gwennis Mooncat)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Blue (was: Maternity Garb)

Date: 27 Jul 1994 22:32:53 GMT

Organization: smelly indigo vats are us...

 

AuntieS at aol.COM wrote:

:    Mistress Gwennis or another natural dye expert can advise you on how

: various blues can be obtained.  (Gwennis, where are you?)

 

buried in an indigo vat...! my apprentice maeve and i are dyeing the weft

for the sheep to shawl demo at pennsic.  it's running rather slowly this

week because the temperature is fairly cool for the end of july.  slows down

the fermentation process.  dern it....

 

as for different blues... well, you can start with different color fibers.

i can't -prove- they did it, but starting with grey wool gives a different

blue than white wool or brown.  i've found that using a light yellow then

indigo gives a turquoisey-blue with one or two lights dips. different

yellows give different blues to greens.  haven't tried diff. mordants yet.

number of dips really makes the main changes in color.  so there is a really

wide variety available.  and how you reduce the indigo in the first place

also makes a difference. [stale urine is gentler on protein fibers, btw.

don't forget the vinegar rinse.]  i have not tried the -saxon blue- vat,

with sulfuric acid.  oop, and i'd rather not risk ruining my fine wools.

also it's not as permanent as a fermentation vat. thiourea dioxide is also

obviously oop, but is easier for city dwellers....just be careful how long

you dip.  and remember the final vinegar rinse.

 

ack.....got carried away! see what happens when you spend too long bent over

the stale p*ss vat....8-)

 

gwennis, who does remember to wear gloves when playing in the

tank....usually...

 

"what?  why are my hand blue?  aren't yours?"

************************************************************************

mistress gwynydd ni gelligaer, ol, called gwennis

tarkhanum, khanate basking lizard, great darke horde

shire of tirnewydd, barony middle marches, midrealm, aka columbus, oh

member #34497, society for creative anachronism     .sigfile v. 1.03

email:  gwennis at infinet.com        since the info was requested...8-)

 

 

From: corliss at hal.PHysics.wayne.EDU (David J. Corliss)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Ammonia and dyes

Date: 1 Sep 1994 12:40:15 -0400

 

Greetings to all, and especially Mistress Gwennis, from Beorthwine-

 

Well do I know that a number of dyes, especially the orchil of which I am so

fond, were made by fermentation in urine. I have seen gentles travel great

distances with purple dye soaking in well-sealed containers, and Heaven help

them if this should ever come open in transit. All this is done for the sake of

the ammonia that the urine provides, without which the color can not be

produced.

 

I also understand that ammonia was long known as essence of Hartshorn, for it

was prepared from this material.

 

Has anyone tried preparing Hartshorn and using it in orchil or indigo? I have

made Hartshorn, but not for this purpose. Is there evidence that hartshorn

might be substituted for urine for turning _cloth_ blue (as opposed to the

alchemist's job of preparing a litmus solution for orchil-bearing lichen and

hartshorn)? This might make the job less troublesome than using urine.

 

Beorthwine of Grafham Wood

 

 

From: jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Period Black Ink/Dye

Date: 8 Mar 94 15:43:41

Organization: STC Technology Ltd., London Road, Harlow, UK.

 

Mistress Gwennis passed me a recipe for black ink which I tried out

last weekend at a craft session. It worked so well I thought someone

else out there might like to try it. She got the recipe from a Dover

translation of a medieval text by Cenini (sp?)

 

We took a cup of oak galls and a cup of water, then added a teaspoon

of iron salts (ferrous sulphate). To make writing ink add a few

spoonfulls of gum arabic (I'm told that arrowroot would work aswell,

but we didn't try that).

 

The ink looks light grey when it goes on, but as it oxidises it slowly

turns to black. It's quite fun watching the ink develop before your

eyes, it's quite different from modern inks which just sit there

staying the same colour.

 

If you leave out the gum arabic/arrowroot you have a dye. Heat silk in

it and you get a dense bluish black. On wool it gives a very very dark

brown colour, it looks black beside a black T shirt, but had a

definite brownish tinge when held next to ythe dyed silk.

 

The oak galls are a concentrated source of tannin. If you can't get

oak galls we produced a similar effect by boiling three teabags in a

cup of water for about quarter of an hour. It wasn't quite as good an

ink as the stuff from the oak galls, but it improved overnight and

gave a reasonable black. The oak gall ink also improved overnight even

though we had strained out the oak galls by passing it through a

coarse cloth. I suppose there was still fine sediment in the pot that

was causing the tannin concentration to go up? After leaving overnight

the ink went onto paper as a dark grey colour, and turned as black as

india ink within minutes.

 

I would like to try the same again with a different source of Iron

since a bottle of Iron sulphate crytals doesn't look very period.

Iron filings or rust might work as a source of Iron to blacken the

ink, as vegetable tanned leather turns black when exposed to iron

rivets and fittings. I suspect the iron is reacting with the tannin in

the leather to produce the same black compound.

 

The oak gall ink dyes wood black, so I'm planning on using it to

paint in the details on my Viking tent, as the original from the

Gokstad ship had painted details on it.

 

We used quill pens to write with the ink, and sometimes found the ink

went on a little grey as it ran out. This meant that we had to dip

slightly more often than when using india ink, but it was worth it for

the fun of watching the letters change colour as we wrote.

 

Jennifer/Rannveik

Vanaheim Vikings

 

 

From: mchance at crl.com (Michael A. Chance)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Oh woad is me....

Date: 6 Nov 1994 21:08:49 -0800

 

Mistress Gwennis Mooncat writes:

 

>Peter Rose (WISH at uriacc.uri.EDU) wrote:

>:   Since you've brought it up, what *IS* the process necesary to

>:   get dye from woad?

 

>to begin with, only first year plants produce indigotin. the second year, it

>all goes into producing flowers/seeds.

 

[process deleted]

 

>this is a complex process, and i would heartliy suggest to anyone

>considering it to read up.  there are several books on the market that have

>the info.  i would start with rita buchanan, "a weaver's garden".  there is

>also a booklet put out byt the brooklyn botanical gardens that has an

>article by rita with useful info in it.  only a few years old, but i don't

>have it handy right nonw [i loaned it out].  also, look for j.n. liles, "the

>art and craft of natural dyeing".

 

Something that I've yet to see anyone mention here: Before planting

any woad seeds/plants, check with your local agricultural authorities.

In many areas of the U.S., at least, woad is illegal to grow

intentionally, having been declared a "pernicious weed".

 

Mikjal Annarbjorn

--

Michael A. Chance          St. Louis, Missouri, USA   "At play in the fields

Work: mc307a at sw1stc.sbc.com                             of St. Vidicon"

Play: mchance at crl.com

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: v081lu33 at ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (TRISTAN CLAIR DE LUNE/KEN MONDSCHEIN)

Subject: Re: natural dyes are muted...NOT! [was something about kilts]

Organization: University at Buffalo

Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 19:27:27 GMT

 

In article <39eslm$432 at rigel.infinet.com>, gwennis at infinet.com (Gwennis Mooncat) writes:

>greetings to all:

>

>in a previous article about kilts, it was mentioned that natural dye colors

>were all muted! and not bright like modern materials. this is erroneous!

>natural colors can be quite bright!  in fact, fermented lichen can be

>screaming fushia. and lichen dyes were used in the highlands until early

>this century.

>

>now, many natural dyes do fade over time, but not all. many stay extremely

>bright. a plaid woven of yarns dyed with onion skins, madder/lady's

>bedstraw, lichen, and woad would shine like a beacon.

>

>i think the so-called muted tartans sold to "look like natural dyes" are

>hype! don't be fooled! check with your local fiber enthusiasts, some of them

>surely will have samples to show you.

>

>gwennis, natural dye maven

>

>************************************************************************

>mistress gwynydd ni gelligaer, ol, called gwennis

>tarkhanum, khanate basking lizard, great darke horde

>shire of tirnewydd, barony middle marches, midrealm, aka columbus, oh

>member #34497, society for creative anachronism     .sigfile v. 1.03

>email:  gwennis at infinet.com        since the info was requested...8-)

 

 

        The Unicorn tapestries at the Cloisters collection in Fort Tyron park

(in the north end of Manhattan) have beautiful, vivid colors. They were done,

BTW, half a milennia ago in 1500. Besides being a beautiful

medieval/renaissance allegory, they're also excellent sources for a variety of

information on Renaissance life.

        Ironically enough, the artifical dyes that the 19th century restoration

used have since faded and look quite ugly.

        The Cloisters is itself wonderful. It's a bunch of Medieval buildings

patisched together. They even have a medieval herb garden. It's a division

of the Metropolitan Museum of Art (the guys with the great armor collection,

where I hope to work this summer...).

 

 

               --Tristan

 

 

From: Phyllis_Gilmore at rand.org (Phyllis Gilmore)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: natural dyes are muted...NOT! [was something about kilts]

Date: Mon, 7 Nov 94 12:38:28 GMT

Organization: RAND

 

In Article <Cyt7Dr.AJz at acsu.buffalo.edu>, v081lu33 at ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu

(TRISTAN CLAIR DE LUNE/KEN MONDSCHEIN) wrote:

 

>        The Unicorn tapestries at the Cloisters collection in Fort Tyron park

>(in the north end of Manhattan) have beautiful, vivid colors. They were done,

>BTW, half a milennia ago in 1500. Besides being a beautiful

>medieval/renaissance allegory, they're also excellent sources for a variety of

>information on Renaissance life.

>        Ironically enough, the artifical dyes that the 19th century restoration

>used have since faded and look quite ugly.

>        The Cloisters is itself wonderful. It's a bunch of Medieval buildings

>patisched together. They even have a medieval herb garden. It's a division

>of the Metropolitan Museum of Art (the guys with the great armor collection,

>where I hope to work this summer...).

>

I'd like to add to Tristan's comments by adding both the tapestries in

Paris' Cluny Museum and those at Hearst's (infamously overdecorated)

Castle here in California.  The colors are indeed rich, even with the

passage of several centuries and, in the case of Cluny's unicorn series,

serious damage that's been repaired about the bottom edges.

 

I found the tour guide's talk in the billiards room at Hearst Castle

particularly enlightening.  The tapestries hung in that room are

colorful and have not faded (at least not in the time they've been

in place).  The felt covers of the pool tables, which had been replaced

within the five years previous to my visit (in the '70s) and dyed with

the best modern stuff, had faded appreciably--which the guide

demonstrated simply by moving the racked pool balls over. The tapestries

and the pool tables were subject to essentially the same lighting.

 

It's apparent to me that the tapestries are a better guide to the

possible colors, tones, etc. of *fabric* than the behavior of modern

dyed fabrics with time.

 

By the by, I read in a book on kilts that the "ancient" colors had

been "extrapolated" from some very old plaid fabric that had been dug

up out of a bog and was supposed to be quite old. Apparently the

sett matched that of some modern tartan or another and it was therefore

assumed that it *was* the same tartan, etc., etc. etc.

  

 

******************************************

SCA:  Philippa de Ecosse, Lyondemere, Caid  

mka:  Phyllis Gilmore, Santa Monica and Torrance, CA

 

 

From: cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Dying Linen

Date: 22 Jun 1995 14:25:50 GMT

Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.

 

In article <3saskf$rjf at agate.berkeley.edu>, hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones) writes:

|> Michael Stasica (michael.stasica at canrem.com) wrote:

|> : Good Day to all assembled:

|>

|> : I've access to a large quantity of 100% linen, all white.  How difficult is

|> : it to dye this material using onion skins for the dye?  Should I use a

|> : mordant to fix the dye, or simply re-dye as the colour fades?

|>

 

The function of the mordant is to help the dye bind to the fiber.  Also, it

will modify the colour you obtain.  I'm not sure how the mordant affects the

light fastness of the various dyes, but since it involves binding the dye,

it will affect the wash-fastness.  Some natural dyes do not require a mordant.

These are called 'substantive' dyes.  Among them are the red lichen dyes

(orchil, etc.), indigo/woad, and walnut hulls (on wool anyway).

Onion skins would be a mordant dye.

 

Unfortunately, most of my research has been on dyeing skins, so I've paid

attention to the wool recipes (ie. protein fibers) rather than the plant fiber

recipes.  The impression I get is that mordanting linen is not as simple as

mordanting wool, and that linen is difficult to dye.  It certainly CAN be done

however.  Whether or not you think it's worth the trouble to learn to dye

linen for this one project is another question.  Using it white as Tangwystyl

suggests is probably your best bet.  I think linen looks pretty spiffy just

the way it is.

 

Cheers, Balderik/Rick

 

 

From: li899gej at kauri.vuw.ac.nz (Jennifer Geard)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Dying Linen

Date: 25 Jun 1995 03:41:25 GMT

Organization: Victoria University of Wellington, New Zealand.

 

Michael of Rye wrote:

: I've access to a large quantity of 100% linen, all white.  How difficult is

: it to dye this material using onion skins for the dye? Should I use a

: mordant to fix the dye, or simply re-dye as the colour fades?

 

Do test samples: one pre-mordanted with alum and another not.  Linen

doesn't take most natural dyestuffs well, but onion skins are one of the

exceptions.  I've had intense almost orangey gold from onion skins on linen

with an alum mordant (standing in for clubmoss).

 

Note that even with the mordant the colour fades over time.  The two

things which seem to affect the colour most are light and washing.  Wash

rarely, by hand, and without modern washing agents. You'll probably find

yourself re-dying the garment whenever you want to freshen up the colour

(for a while I redyed that underdress for any big event). I've found it

possible to redye linen dresses in my large dyepot because they tend to

pack down small when they're wet and I can get an even colour -- woollen

clothing is a differen story and I wouldn't recemmend re-dyeing it.  All

the usual cautions about matching threads to fabrics apply particularly if

you intend to be able to re-dye the garment, BTW.

 

  Payne/Signy

 

 

From: wildgoose at gateway.ecn.com (Keith Cunningham)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Dying linen

Date: 25 Jun 1995 11:49:47 -0700

Organization: West Coast Computer Products

 

This is being posted by my friend Keith Cunningham for me. I have no

e-mail adress.  Morie Johns

 

In my experience 100% dyes very well.  Onion skins and a good long long

soak will work.

 

Mordent with coachenil {Sorry I can't spell that :{) KEC}

 

Irish peoples dyed their linen a Saffron color as a way of showing

wealth. It will fade over time.

 

For more details check out the net area on fibers.  Sorry I don't have

the name.

 

 

From: UDSD007 at DSIBM.OKLADOT.STATE.OK.US (Mike.Andrews)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Oak Gall Ink

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 16:38

Organization: The University of Oklahoma (USA)

 

IVANOR at delphi.com writes:

 

>Quoting WISH from a message in rec.org.sca

>   >for it.   The only part I now don't have right is:  What's green

>   >vitriol?

>

>Sulphate of iron.

>

>Blue is copper, white is zinc. All are forms of sulfuric acid. Handle with

>extremem care.

 

Not so, dear lady.  Sulfuric acid exists in one form only:

H2SO4.  The "vitriols" are iron, copper, and zinc sulfates. They

don't have any hydrogen atoms sticking out on the left end of

the formula, and so can't be acids in the conventional sense.

(See _College Chemistry_, 7th. ed., by King/Caldwell/Williams,

from D. Van Nostrand; p. 152) They are "salts": compounds

between metallic ions and non-metallic ions. (op. cit., p. 153).

 

Even so, these salts should be handled with at least the same

care used with any other non-culinary chemical: don't work in

the kitchen, keep the work area clean, keep hands and chemicals

away from face, wash hands frequently, etc., etc.

--

udsd007 at dsibm.okladot.state.ok.us

Michael Fenwick of Fotheringhay, O.L. (Mike Andrews) Namron, Ansteorra

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Black clothing (was Re: Tax status & Sharking)

From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)

Date: Fri, 05 Jan 96 20:10:24 EST

 

gealaclan at aol.com (Gealac lan) writes:

> Yes wearing all black is period, for certain periods, especially for the

> Spanish.  If I recall it started during the Spanish inquisition and spread

> across Europe.

>

> GL

        Time to repost this, I guess...

meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org (meg) writes:

> Just because a dye exists naturally doesn't mean it was used in period,

> or even knowm about. There are some wonderful lichens that produce

> glorious colors, but we have no documentation that they were used in

> Europe during the middle ages for dyeing. Alas, sad but true.

>

> Black black, that elusive black. (Alizaunde, back me up on this one...)

> How did the medieval dyer achieve black?

              ++++++++  <--- Emphasis added. A.de B.

 

> With much difficulty, rarely, and only for a few weeks at best.

> Overdyes of woad and walnut can approximate a black, but it will fade out

> to grey rather quickly, or to dark brown. True black such as is achieved

> wth modern dyes was virtually unknown. Clergy wore black...wool from

> black sheep...which again was rarely true black but rather dark brown.

> Remember we still have no verifiable account of tin as a mordant. Iron

> saddens any color, and could have been used, however, to darken a

> brown/blue conbination overdye.

> ==

> In 1994: Linda Anfuso

> In the Current Middle Ages: Megan ni Laine de Belle Rive  

> In the SCA, Inc: sustaining member # 33644

>

        Respected friends:

        The underline is because Megan is dead-on correct, for the middle

ages. But something strange happenned about the time my good Baroness died

(Sorry about the pun, Megan- from your point of view it's _will_ happen

about the time you die, but that's not much help given the topic...)

        See,

there was this Spanish Queen-type person who had obsessive-compulsive

disorder centered around Roman Catholic nun's behavior, and the Courtiers

wore a lot of black because she wigged out if they didn't, and it started

being worn in other countries because those rich Conquistadores' relatives

were wearing it (which made it The Fashion), and then the old spotty-ugly

stuff didn't cut it with the High Ticket trade, and _then_ the Portugese

started buying Silk from a different batch of Benighted 'eathans with

different dye techniques and experimenting with new dyestuffs from the

Americas- * Well, now Bloody Mary holds the throne of England and things

are completely out of hand.  (Black which is neither brown nor blue in

cast- so-called `pure' black- will still be unavailable to the home dyer

at the time of the War Between the States - CE1860. I have the Godey's ladies'

books to prove it; they offerred several mixtures for ladies converting

gowns to mourning, and the perpetual complaint was of the colour turning

either "rusty" (brown) or "chalky" (blue).  

 

                              Inkily yours,

                                             Honour/Alizaunde/Una

*Now you know why only Alizaunde de Bregeuf sells the cloaks Honour makes.

Una would do Very Unkind Things to get hold of so impossible a colour...|->

 

                                Honour, known societally as

                                Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf; or

                                Una Wicca (That Pict)

 

 

From: priest at vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Black clothing (was Re: Tax status & Sharking)

Date: 8 Jan 1996 17:59:43 GMT

Organization: Vassar College

 

Greeting from Thora Sharptooth!

 

Quoting Megan, Alizaunde writes:

 

>> With much difficulty, rarely, and only for a few weeks at best.

>> Overdyes of woad and walnut can approximate a black, but it will fade out

>> to grey rather quickly, or to dark brown. True black such as is achieved

>> wth modern dyes was virtually unknown. Clergy wore black...wool from

>> black sheep...which again was rarely true black but rather dark brown.

>> Remember we still have no verifiable account of tin as a mordant. Iron

>> saddens any color, and could have been used, however, to darken a

>> brown/blue conbination overdye.

[snip]

>(Black which is neither brown nor blue in

>cast- so-called `pure' black- will still be unavailable to the home dyer

>at the time of the War Between the States - CE1860. I have the Godey's

ladies'

>books to prove it; they offerred several mixtures for ladies converting

>gowns to mourning, and the perpetual complaint was of the colour turning

>either "rusty" (brown) or "chalky" (blue).

 

I have to disagree here.  Overdyeing an existing gown can be considerably

different from an original dyejob.  There are several early American recipes

for black dyes in _The Arcana of Arts and Sciences, or, Farmers' &

Mechanics' Manual:  containing a great variety of valuable receipts and

useful discoveries, in the various departments of human knowledge; many of

which were never before published_, by Dr. M. Parker (Washington, Penn.:  J.

Grayson, 1824).  (Thank you, Mar Joshua, for sharing this source!)  Dr.

Parker says "The black commonly given to all kinds of stuff is that which is

produced by some vegetable astringent, particularly galls, with the salts of

iron; but many circumstances must be attended to in order to produce a full

and good color."  Then he goes on to describe several such recipes for silk,

linen, and wool.

 

It is also quite possible to produce a decent black on an undyed textile

using materials available as far back as the Bronze Age. With my own eyes I

have seen extremely deep "true blacks" on wool and silk result from the use

of a minimally redacted sixteenth-century Italian recipe in _The Plictho of

Gioanventura Rosetti_, utilizing simply iron fragments, vinegar, and oak

galls.  I direct you to the dyeings of Dame Elayne Courtenay (of

Carolingia), and to her article in the _Pikestaff Arts and Sciences Issue_

of December A.S. XXVI (1991), "Instructions in the Art of Dyeing Black," pp.

51-53.  Not everyone may happen to have Elayne's felicity with blacks,

however; it's her best color.

 

Whether, how, and how often true blacks were actually produced in periods

before the sixteenth century, I don't know.  I do know of one pair of men's

pants from Hedeby (10th century Denmark) that were dyed with walnut hulls

and iron, and of some early Byzantine samites that included black silk.  

Additionally, many early Coptic tapestry weaves are catalogued as "purple,"

although their appearance is a pretty convincing black. Perhaps they were

overdyed purple and then saddened with iron.

*************************************************************************

Carolyn Priest-Dorman                     Thora Sharptooth

Poughkeepsie, NY                   Frostahlid

priest at vassar.edu                      Austrrik

            Gules, three square weaver's tablets in bend Or

*************************************************************************

 

 

From: afn03234 at freenet2.afn.org (Ronald L. Charlotte)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Vegetable Dye Techniques

Date: 5 Apr 1996 12:37:51 GMT

 

Rebekah and Chip <rinman at ucsd.edu> wrote:

> And to those with some experience in the art of vegetable dyeing, a query:

> How do you do it?

 

> I have some blonde horse hair that I wish to dye green (to be used as shoulder

> plumes for my new armor). I'm figuring I can put the horse hair in a sack of cheese

> cloth and throw it into a big pot with some rich green leafy spinach.

 

> Any input would be greatly appreciated.

 

EXCERPTED FROM:

_The Second part of Secretes of Maister Alexis of Piemount_

                               ANNO 1563

Reprinted in 1977 by Theatrum Orbis Terrarum, Ltd., Amsterdam

                           ISBN 90 221 0839 2

 

(I've come to the conclusion that this is the "Hints and Help from

Heloise" of the Rennaisance)

 

     To dye Heare into a Greene coloure,

Take freshe Capers, and distill theym, and washe your heare with the

water of them in the sunne, and they will become greene.

 

Or, since this is animal hair try this:

 

EXCERPTED FROM:

_The Secretes of the Reverende Maister Alexis of Piemount_

                               ANNO 1558

Reprinted in 1975 by Theatrum Orbis Terrarum, Ltd., Amsterdam

                           ISBN 90 221 0707 8

 

     To dye the saied (hog) bristels yellowe, greene, or blew, or any

other colour.

 

Firste you must wasshe them, and let theym boyle in Alome water, as the

other before:  than take Ligustrum, and saffron, if you will have them

yellowe.  Indicum, or the juyce of elder berries, or walwort, or els of

the flowers of Ireos, if you will have them blew.  If you wil have them

greene, take paynters greene, and dresse them as is above saied,

assaying sometime if the coloure please you.  And by this meanes you may

dye them what colour you like.

 

I hope this helps.  I don't know what some of the ingredients are,

myself.  I've attempted but a fraction of the recipes in these books.

 

     al Thaalibi ---- An Crosaire, Trimaris

     Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL

     afn03234 at afn.org

 

 

From: dickeney at access1.digex.net (Dick Eney)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Vegetable Dye Techniques

Date: 5 Apr 1996 09:47:41 -0500

Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA

 

In article <4juqng$27m at news1.ucsd.edu>,

Rebekah and Chip  <rinman at ucsd.edu> wrote:

>And to those with some experience in the art of vegetable dyeing, a

>query: How do you do it?

>I have some blonde horse hair that I wish to dye green (to be used as

>shoulder plumes for my new armor).  I'm figuring I can put the horse hair

>in a sack of cheese

>cloth and throw it into a big pot with some rich green leafy spinach.

 

Whoa!  :) According to the newspaper, spinach will dye Easter eggs a

"grayish gold".  For green, you could use carrot tops "greenish yellow".  

Sorry, they don't give a good green.  That is a hard color to get

naturally, oddly enough; perhaps that was why only elves wore green in

Irish lore--the Irish were master dyers, and knew that it practically took

magic to get a good fast green. However, two dyeings might do it if you

dyed it with saffron first (for yellow) and then woad (for blue).  

I've read that different mordants will affect how yellow the saffron gets.

 

BTW, thyme and orange peels both give "yellow", onion skins give "golden

yellow", and peels from Yellow Delicious apples give "lavender".  And red

cabbage leaves produced "blue".  Walnut husks "buff", tea "beige", strong

coffee "brown" (darned strong coffee--my coffee stains are only beige).

 

-- Tamar the Gypsy

 

 

From: sbloch at adl15.adelphi.edu (Dr. Bloch)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Vegetable Dye Techniques

Date: 6 Apr 1996 17:18:44 GMT

Organization: Adelphi University, Garden City, NY

 

Rebekah and Chip  <rinman at ucsd.edu> wrote:

>>And to those with some experience in the art of vegetable dyeing, a

>>query: How do you do it?

>>I have some blonde horse hair that I wish to dye green (to be used as

>>shoulder plumes for my new armor).  I'm figuring I can put the horse hair

>>in a sack of cheese

>>cloth and throw it into a big pot with some rich green leafy spinach.

 

I don't know about spinach. Parsley might work -- it was widely used as

a food coloring in the Middle Ages -- but I suspect it wouldn't last

long.

 

Dick Eney <dickeney at access1.digex.net> wrote:

>Whoa!  :) According to the newspaper, spinach will dye Easter eggs a

>"grayish gold".  For green, you could use carrot tops "greenish yellow".  

>Sorry, they don't give a good green.  That is a hard color to get

>naturally, oddly enough; perhaps that was why only elves wore green in

>Irish lore--the Irish were master dyers, and knew that it practically took

>magic to get a good fast green.  However, two dyeings might do it if you

>dyed it with saffron first (for yellow) and then woad (for blue).  

>I've read that different mordants will affect how yellow the saffron gets.

 

Digging out my oldest dyeing source:

 

MP: To dye woollen green, either a blue or yellow dye may be first given to it,

MP: but the first is generally used because the yellow dye of the stuff

MP: would injure the blue bath [and not vice versa?!].  The intensity of

MP: the blue must ever be proportioned to the shade of green required.

MP: When the blue dye is given, the yellow is given by some of the

MP: processes already described. The cloth having the proper ground, is

MP: washed in the fulling mills and boiled as for the common process of

MP: welding; but when the shade is to be light, the proportion of salts

MP: should be less.  In this case, the quantity of weld should also be

MP: less; but for all other shades it should be greater than for dying

MP: simple yellow.

MP:

MP: Saxon Greens are obtained from the sulphate of indigo.  From six to

MP: eight pounds of quercitron, black oak bark, enclosed in a bag, should

MP: be put into the bath for every 100 lbs. of cloth, with only a small

MP: proportion of water.  Just as it begins to grow warm, when the water

MP: boils, six pounds of murio sulphate of tin should be put in, and in a

MP: few minutes after about four pounds of alum; these having boiled five

MP: or six minutes, cold water should be added and the fire diminished, so

MP: as to bring down the heat of the liquor nearly to what the hand can

MP: bear; after this as much sulphate of indigo is to be added as will

MP: suffice to produce the shade required, taking care to mix it well with

MP: the bath.  The cloth having been previously scoured and moistened,

MP: should then be expeditiously put into the liquor and turned very

MP: briskly through it for a quarter of an hour, that the colour may apply

MP: itself evenly in every part. By this method beautiful greens may be

MP: dyed in half an hour.

MP:

MP: A fine Green for dying Silk. Take to one pound of silk, a quarter of a

MP: pound of alum and two ounces of white tartar; put them together in hot

MP: water to dissolve; then put in your silk and let it soak all night; take

MP: it out the next morning and hang it up to dry; then take one pound of

MP: fustic and boil it in four gallons of water for an hour; take out the

MP: fustic and put into the kettle half an ounce of finely powdered

MP: verdigris; stir it about for a quarter of an hour, draw it off into a

MP: tub and let it cool; then put into that colour an ounce of pot ash; stir

MP: it together with a stick; dip the silk therein till you think it yellow

MP: enough; rinse it in fair water and hang it up to dry; then dip it in the

MP: blue vat till you think it enough; rinse it again and beat it over the

MP: pin and hang it up to dry. Thus you may change the shades of green by

MP: dipping either more or less in the blue or yellow.  For the green, take,

MP: to one pound of silk, three ounces of verdigris in fine powder, infuse

MP: it in a pine of wine vinegar for a night; then put it on the fire; when

MP: hot, stir it with a stick and keep it from boiling; in this put the silk

MP: two or three hours; or if it is to be of a light colour, let it soak only

MP: half an hour; then take scalding hot water, and in a trough, with soap,

MP: beat and work up a clear lather; in this rinse your silk; then hang it

MP: up to dry; rinse it again in river water; beat it well, and when it is

MP: well cleaned and dried, dress it.  [I'm confused: which bath is which?]

MP:

MP: To dye Linen of a Green Colour.  Soak your linen overnight in strong

MP: alum water; then take it out and dry it; take woad, boil it for an hour;

MP: take out the woad and put in one ounce of powdered verdigris, according

MP: to the quantity you have to dye; stire it together briskly with the

MP: linen; then put in a piece of pot ash, the size of a hen's egg, and the

MP: linen will be of a fine yellow colour, which, when dried a little and

MP: put into a blue vat, will turn green.  Cotton and linen are, in another

MP: process, scoured in the usual way, and then first dyed blue; after being

MP: cleaned they are dipped in the weld bath to produce a green colour.  As

MP: it is difficult to give cotton velvet an uniform colour in the blue vat,

MP: it is first dyed yellow with turmeric, and the process completed by

MP: giving it a green by sulphate of indigo.

MP: The different shades of olive, &c. are given to cotton thread, after it

MP: has received a blue ground by galling it, dipping it in a weaker or

MP: stronger bath of iron liquor, then in the weld bath, and afterwards in

MP: the bath with sulphate of copper; the colour is lastly brightened with

MP: soap.  Yellow colours are rendered more intense by means of alkalies,

MP: sulphate of lime and ammoniacal salts; but they become fainter by means

MP: of acids and solutions of tin and alum.

 

The "processes already described" for yellows amount to 6 pages, and I'm

not going to type them all in, but here's an excerpt:

 

MP: Yellow is usually imparted to woollen substances by a decoction of woad,

MP: but as this plant yields its colouring principle with difficulty,

MP: alkalies are employed to assist in its extraction.  Alkalies are used

MP: chiefly for this purposes in dying of linen or cotton, and their place

MP: must be supplied by salt, sal ammoniac, and alum; when woad is to be

MP: applied to animal substances which are dissolved in alkalies, lime is

MP: sometimes used, to heighten the colours.  A good yellow of different

MP: tints may be procured by boiling woad with marine salt, lime or alum;

MP: the salt produces the deepest shade; alum renders the colour brighter;

MP: ammonia imparts a greenish hue to the bath; tartar gives a very pale

MP: shade; and copperas changes it to a brown.

 

Other yellow dyes mentioned are fustic (usually mixed with galls), tree

fungus, acacia flowers, woad-verdigris-and-alum,

alum-tartar-salt-and-weld, alum-tartar-and-weld, quercitron-and-alum,

etc.

 

Since the original poster specifically wanted to dye horsehair, I looked

for that; the closest I found was

 

MP: To dye Bristles or Feathers a curious Green.  Take one ounce of

MP: verdigris, one ounce of verditer, and one pint of gum water; mix them

MP: well together, and dip the bristles or feathers therein, they having

MP: been first soaked in hot water.

 

From _The Arcana of Arts and Sciences, or, Farmers' & Mechanics' Manual;

containing a great variety of Valuable Receipts and Useful Discoveries,

in the various departments of human knowledges; many of which were Never

Before Published_, by Dr. M. Parker, printed by J. Grayson, Washington,

PA 1824.

 

Note that this is NOT a period source; it's about halfway from us to the

1650 cutoff.  The oak bark referred to is probably a variety widely

available in the Midwestern U.S, but not necessarily in medieval Europe,

and the various nasty and/or poisonous chemicals might not have been

available 200 years earlier.  But with those caveats, I thought it might

prove helpful.

 

                                                 Stephen Bloch

                                           sbloch at panther.adelphi.edu

                                         http://www.adelphi.edu/~sbloch/

                                        Math/CS Dept, Adelphi University

 

 

From: "Morgan E. Smith" <mesmith at freenet.calgary.ab.ca>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Copper-Ammonia Cloth Dyeing

Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 12:30:44 -0600

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

 

Hi. My name is Morgan the Unknown and I have a challenge for all you

curious and/or experienced clothdyers out there.

  I've been doing some experiments with a copper-ammonia dye system that

can, under good circs, yield a blue dye. I'm interested in seeing as many

people from as many places do a small test version and send me a sample,

with any notes, and I will send a sample of mine.

 

COPPER-AMMONIA DYE

2 gallons water

1/2 cup household ammonia diluted in 1 cup water

4 oz ( or whatevers lying around) wet undyed wool yarn

one of the following: 200 pre-1966 pennies (newer pennies don't contain

enough copper, but do contain aluminum which alters the dye), 2-3 ounces

of copper sheeting, 5-7 inches copper wire or 3-4 inch piece of copper

piping. Or whatever else copper you can find.

 

Combine the water, ammonia and copper in either an enameled canner or

roaster that has no rust spots, or in a large plastic bucket with a lid.

Warning: you cannot later use this container for any food related use.

Also, you should not do this project inside your home. Ammonia fumes are

toxic.Garages, porches or the plain outside is best; summertime is ideal.

 

Here's where it gets tricky: the original recipe merely said to add the

fibre and swish it around periodically over a period of days.

Subsequent experimentation has given me the following additional advice:

This dye, like woad and indigo appears to be improved by oxidation, so

pull your yarn out for an airing fairly often. Also, I got grays with only

the merest hint of blue until I allowed the mixture to sit for a couple of

days BEFORE I put the fibre in. The liquid was abright blue, and the yarn

took the dye much more quickly and vividly than prior attempts ( dark navy

in two days, as opposed to medium gray over ten days.) Not to be bitchy,

but apparently no-one's immune to the "secret family recipe" syndrome.

Anyway, the artisans and craftspeople of the SCA are better than that,

aren't we? So let me know how it goes (via a 3-6 inch piece of yarn) and

I'll update if I find out anything new!

 

Morgan the Unknown

(the original LBC)

 

 

From: jartificer at aol.com (Jartificer)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Copper-Ammonia Cloth Dyeing

Date: 11 Jun 1996 13:29:52 -0400

 

  What you are doing is staining your cloth in a cupramonioum complex

solution.  The blue you get is nice, but only lasts as long as there is

some ammonia around in the fiber.  Eventually, it will turn some shade of

green as copper carbonate (the form in malachite) forms.

  While I am more pigment oriented, the recipe you describe uses period

components, so it could have been done.  Stale urine for the ammonia and a

copper kettle as used for other dyes.

  Have fun and keep us up to date!

 

Master John the Artificer

John Rose

 

 

From: powers at woodstock.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Silk cloth

Date: 3 Apr 1997 09:46:09 -0500

Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science

 

>       Here's an interesting question... how easy is it to dye silk?  Is

>it like linen in that it doesn't take very well, or is it like cotton in

>that it will hold the color for quite some time (well, nothing lasts

>through too many washes)?

>       I ask, because it seems to be most economical to buy an entire

>bolt of white, cut to need, and dye whatever color you wish.  Would this

>be feasible... or am I just indulging in wishful thinking?

 

Silk dyes gorgeously! ---one of the reasons it was so precious---

 

Remember that it prefers ACID dyes like wool (*not* like cotton).

Using natural dyes at our "dye-ins"  we have got some colours that

really contradict the "only muted tones are period"

 

wilelm married to the spinster Arianwen ferch Hari

 

 

From: eherring! at mindspring.com (Evan Herring)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Silk cloth/setting color

Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 19:57:04 GMT

 

gbrent at Kutta.Stanford.EDU (Geoffrey Brent) wrote:

>Yes, silk takes some _beautiful_ colours, and I don't really like

>to sew with anything else... But to reduce the amount of dye that

>_does_ come out in the wash, I'm told that dissolving a good

>amount of salt in the water helps. Anyone know if this is true ?

 

Salt will definitely help set colors, even in "store-bought" clothes.

I usually fill the kitchen sink with cold water, mix in a fair amount

of regular table salt, then add the item of clothing to be "set."  I

leave it in for a while (maybe a couple of hours), then wash it as I

intend to from then on.  **Warning:  I've never tried this with silk,

though.**

 

Magdalen of Cheshire

 

 

From: gbrent at Kutta.Stanford.EDU (Geoffrey Brent)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Silk cloth/setting color

Date: 3 Apr 1997 13:54:56 -0800

Organization: Stanford University, CA 94305, USA

 

Evan Herring <eherring at mindspring.com> wrote:

>gbrent at Kutta.Stanford.EDU (Geoffrey Brent) wrote:

>>Yes, silk takes some _beautiful_ colours, and I don't really like

>>to sew with anything else... But to reduce the amount of dye that

>>_does_ come out in the wash, I'm told that dissolving a good

>>amount of salt in the water helps. Anyone know if this is true ?

>

>Salt will definitely help set colors, even in "store-bought" clothes.

>I usually fill the kitchen sink with cold water, mix in a fair amount

>of regular table salt, then add the item of clothing to be "set."  I

>leave it in for a while (maybe a couple of hours), then wash it as I

>intend to from then on.  **Warning:  I've never tried this with silk,

>though.**

 

I wash silks with salt, and it certainly doesn't seem to do any

harm. I don't leave it to set, though; I just wash it in the minimum

amount of water necessary, fairly quickly, rinse ditto. Although the

water turns some fascinating colours the silk is just as bright and

colourful afterwards, much to the dismay of those who have to look

at my garb ;-)

 

As always, wash like colours with like. Lightest first, darkest

last.

 

 

From: camino <camino at calweb.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Silk cloth/setting color

Date: 4 Apr 1997 04:42:50 GMT

 

eherring! at mindspring.com (Evan Herring) writes:

> gbrent at Kutta.Stanford.EDU (Geoffrey Brent) wrote:

> >Yes, silk takes some _beautiful_ colours, and I don't really like

> >to sew with anything else... But to reduce the amount of dye that

> >_does_ come out in the wash, I'm told that dissolving a good

> >amount of salt in the water helps. Anyone know if this is true ?

>

> Salt will definitely help set colors, even in "store-bought" clothes.

> I usually fill the kitchen sink with cold water, mix in a fair amount

> of regular table salt, then add the item of clothing to be "set."  I

> leave it in for a while (maybe a couple of hours), then wash it as I

> intend to from then on.  **Warning:  I've never tried this with silk,

> though.**

>

> Magdalen of Cheshire

 

White vinegar is used with hand spun silk with good results.

I don't know if it would change the color on commercially dyed

silk, but it doesn't with the hand spun I've used it on. I

usually use about one cup per gallon of water.  I've also

used it on wool and cotton - both commercial and hand spun,

and on the bargain table cotton cloth.

 

Rhiannan Lowery

 

 

From: "Morgan E. Smith" <mesmith at freenet.calgary.ab.ca>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Silk cloth

Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 07:41:58 -0700

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

 

On 3 Apr 1997, Kim Pollard wrote:

>       Here's an interesting question... how easy is it to dye silk?  Is

> it like linen in that it doesn't take very well, or is it like cotton in

> that it will hold the color for quite some time (well, nothing lasts

> through too many washes)?

>       I ask, because it seems to be most economical to buy an entire

> bolt of white, cut to need, and dye whatever color you wish.  Would this

> be feasible... or am I just indulging in wishful thinking?

>

> Kimberly

 

One of silk's nicest properties IS that it takes dyes well. Not all dyes,

and not absolutely consistently, but in a general sense, it takes colours

well. My experience using plant dyes suggests that the colours differ from

the shades obtained dyeing wool: onionskin with alum, cream of tartar and

tin gave me a gold-yellow on wool, but I got a tangerine colour on silk

fibre. Keep in mind that it is difficult to dye large quantities of woven

fabric (you need a very large pot!) and also that many commercially made

fabrics are treated with detergents and other things, so you will have to

wash the fabric thoroughly before dyeing.

 

Morgan the Unknown

 

 

From: Chris Laning <CLaning at igc.apc.org>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Silk cloths/setting color

Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 22:33:31 -0800

Organization: Institute for Global Communications

 

Gentle Cousins,

 

If you don't mind using modern techniques to retain dye, there are two

commercial preparations that may help. I first heard of these through a

quilt mailing list, where color problems are common (since you often

have different, strong colors right next to each other, or to white . . .)

 

The first is called *Synthropol*, and I bought a half-pint bottle for

around $5 in an art supplies store. It's used for washing fabric before

dyeing to help remove sizing, etc. It *also* will remove any "loose" dye

that is not firmly bound to the fibers, and it is definitely the first

thing to use on anything light colored that something else has "run"

onto.

(As in "Aaauuuuggghh! All my underwear is PINK!")

 

The second is called *Retayne*, and is somewhat harder to find. I know Pine

Tree Quiltworks carries it, and IIRC they have a Web page. (No connection,

but I've heard good things about their mail-order service.) Retayne will

*set* color, and seems to do a considerably better job at it than vinegar,

salt, and other "home remedies." There are small amounts of it -- or of

something similar -- in Cheer detergent ("with ColorGuard") and possibly

others.

 

Note that Rit has packaged up both of these in packets containing about 2

Tablespoons (enough for 1 laundry load) and sells them for something like

$3.50 per packet. The Synthropol is called "Run-Away" and the Retayne is

called something I can't remember at the moment. The overpriced versions

are better than nothing, but if you do much dyeing it's well worth

searching out a better source.

 

Quilters I've talked to seem to be pretty well agreed that "setting" color

with vinegar or salt doesn't work very well, if at all. These things *are*

sometimes included in dye baths, but for different reasons (pH

adjustment, a "leveling agent" whatever that is, etc.)

 

If you want to stick to period methods, a vinegar rinse certainly won't

hurt any dye that is *not* pH-sensitive, though I don't know which are and

which aren't.  The common period method for getting a more intense color

that doesn't run seems to be to dye the same piece several times in

fresh dyebaths, rinsing in between until the color stops running.

 

(lady) Christian de Holacombe

Windy Meads, Cynagua, West

____________________________________________________________

O   Chris Laning

|   <CLaning at igc.apc.org>

+    Davis, California

 

 

From: kkozmins at mtholyoke.edu (Kim C Kozminski)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Silk cloth/setting color

Date: 8 Apr 1997 23:00:10 GMT

Organization: Mount Holyoke College

 

Both Synthrapol and Retayne are products of Pro Dye and Chemical- their

phone # is 1-800-2-Buy-Dye.

        Roen

 

 

From: powers at woodstock.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Mustard Colored Fabric (Dye experiments)

Date: 8 May 1997 17:18:26 -0400

Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science

 

My messenger having failed in his task has found me on this bridge

watching the tide turn and the odd feud victim float by. Being a kind

(no remarks as to *what* kind...) person I have "let him go" and will

endevor to deliver the contents myself...

 

Re: the type of pots used to dye in the medieval period

<deletia>

>BTW, I've never seen it written that iron pots (which dull dyes and

>roughen the wool) were what caused peasants to wear dull autumn colors.

>IMHO, though, porcelain-coated dye vats would seem 'way more expensive

>and unreachable for peasants than iron kettles. That may be why lower

>classes dressed dull, while the wealthier wore bright colors. There may

>be a TI article in there somewhere.

>Regards, Lady Meara al-Isfahani

 

Gracious Lady Meara; perhaps investigation into what was used in period

times as dyepots would be a good first step.

 

Although we are conditioned to immediatly think of cast iron as the

"old cauldron", cast iron only starts showing up in widespread use in the

1400's.  Prior to that most "cast" pots were brass or bronze and so

would leach copper, tin and zinc into the dyevat if used. However

for large tanks that would not exceed the temperature of boiling water

*lead* was usually the material of choice!  Built up pots constructed of

sheatmetal could be wrought iron or bronze if small but tended more toward

bronze for larger ones. (there is also other time-period shifts of usage).

 

None of this covers the use of "pottery" pots which were common and came