Home Page

Stefan's Florilegium

dyeing-msg



This document is also available in: text or RTF formats.

dyeing-msg - 3/19/08

 

Dyeing techniques and discussion. Both modern and period dyes.

 

NOTE: See also the files: green-art, mordants-msg, washing-msg, woad-msg.

 

KEYWORDS: dyes dyeing medieval mordants woad indigo madder saffron lichens techniques overdyeing

 

************************************************************************

NOTICE -

 

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

 

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

 

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

 

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

 

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

 

Thank you,

    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                          Stefan at florilegium.org

************************************************************************

                  

From: lisch at mentor.com (Ray Lischner)

Date: 17 Jan 90 22:14:29 GMT

Organization: Mentor Graphics Corp., Beaverton, OR

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

 

My lady wife, aoibhinn ni luan, recommends "A Weaver's Garden,"

by Rita Buchanan (1987, Interweave Press, ISBN 0-934026-28-9).

A Weaver's Garden covers the use of plants in fabric making,

including dyeing.  The time period covered includes the SCA period,

and more.  Included are some color pictures of the results, showing

that diverse, bright colors can be obtained from period dyes.

 

Not all natural dyes are period, and Ms. Buchanan mentions

the history of the plants and their uses.

 

There are also chapters on using plants for cleaning, plants

as used in tools (such as Fullers' Teasle for carding wool),

and making your own garden.

 

The references and suggested readings include technical articles

for those who are interested in chemistry.

--

Ray Lischner        UUCP: {uunet,decwrl}!mntgfx!lisch

 

 

From: DICKSNR at qucdn.queensu.ca ("Ross M. Dickson")

Date: 20 Jan 91 18:16:00 GMT

 

Greetings to the Rialto from Sarra Graeham, courtesy of Lord Angus:

 

In Digest v.4 no.25, Herr Peder Klingrode (Leif Euren) writes:

> In fact, in the early Middle Ages, blue dye for textiles were hard

> (not to say impossible) to get, while green was easy to come by; while

> quite the opposite was true for paints.  Thus, a person with a Azure

> coat-of-arms wore a green tabard and flew a green flag: the colours

> were considered equal.

 

My knowledge of the several technologies that Herr Peder brings together

here are not perfect, but my gut reaction is that this statement is an

example of modern misunderstanding of period technologies.

 

First off, it is my understanding that the woad plant, which produces a

dye chemically identical to indigo, was available and used as a dye in the

British Isles from well before the Roman times.  (Can someone correct me

on this?  I have references to it being used as a pigment from the 9th C.)

I'm sure that woad or indigo, indigo having been imported since at least

the first Crusade, was used in the Bayeux Tapestry to produce a slightly

greenish -- but unmistakable -- blue.  Furthermore, most blue pigments

available for painting at that time -- indigo, azurite, copper blues --

had more or less greenish casts, so a greenish-blue dye would not be con-

sidered out of place.  So-called azure or ultramarine blue, made of ground

and processed lapis lazuli, could not be manufactured in Europe until the

13th C., and was an imported luxury until that time.

 

Secondly, "coats-of-arms" as such did not really exist until the mid to

late 12th C.  Admittedly, great lords probably had battle flags and livery

colours before then, but not in the same profusion. (Perhaps one or more

of the heralds on the net could provide better information.)  By the 12th

C., indigo dye was available all over Europe.  In fact, I have been told

by dyers that good greens are much harder to get than blues, given the

availability of indigo, and indigo dye with an overdyeing of yellow is

necessary to be able to make the best greens.

Herr Peder (or anyone else who might be listening), do you have more evi-

dence to support your statement?  My case is merely circumstantial, and

I would happily be corrected by someone who knew better.

     Sarra Graeham, Canton of Greyfells    |  Heather Fraser

     Barony of the Skraeling Althing       |  Kingston, Ontario, CANADA

     Principality of Ealdormere, Midrealm  |  c/o dicksnr at qucdn.queensu.ca

 

                  

From: pears at latcs1.oz.au (Arnold N Pears)

Date: 21 Jan 91 05:52:43 GMT

Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia

 

timm at hoss.unl.edu (Tim Myers) writes:

>everyone. Then we hit upon an idea, DMC floss is very consistent in its

>colors and numbering scheme, and you can find DMC floss all over the place.

>What would happen if kingdom level sewing guild got together with the

>current royalty and heirs and decided what OFFICIAL CALONTIR PURPURE AND OR

>were? Especially since there was a request a twelfth night for more Calontir

>fighting tabards. Wouldn't it be nice if they all looked the same?

 

While the idea of uniformity is attractive to the modern eye, I

suspect that in the SCA period, even if you take it to extend from

600-1650AD, the colour of cloth would have varied considerably

from batch to batch.

 

The dyeing of cloth with natural dyes is a complex task, and

fixing some of the more rare colours, such as purple, made them

expensive during the mediaeval period. I find it difficult to

believe that any group prior to the 18th century would have placed

much importance on the exact shade. To do so would require the

establishment of uniforms and hence bulk production of cloth for

a specific purpose, which to the best of my knowledge is

really outside the scope of the recreation.

 

I suggest you all just buy local purple, as you would have done

in the period, and pride yourselves on the period look of your

soldiery.

 

Lord Arenwald von Hagenburg

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Arnold Pears.  Computer Sci Dept                ACSNET : pears at latcs1.oz

La Trobe Uni, Bundoora 3083.

VIC, AUSTRALIA                                  "Well here we all are then."

    Ph (03) 479-1144                                            -ME

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                  

 

From: bloch at thor.ucsd.edu (Steve Bloch)

Date: 21 Jan 91 07:37:19 GMT

 

DICKSNR at qucdn.queensu.ca (Ross M. Dickson, really Sarra Greaham) writes:

>First off, it is my understanding that the woad plant, which produces a

>dye chemically identical to indigo....

 

"Blue may be dyed with woad alone, which would give a permanent but

not a deep blue; but if indigo be mixed with it, a very rich colour

will be obtained."

 

"Take a quarter of a pound of indigo, half a pound of pot ash, a

quarter of a pound of madder, and three handfuls of bran: let them

boil for half an hour, and then settle; with this ley grind the indigo

in a copper bowl: put this in an old vat of indigo, or on a new one of

woad, and it will make it fit for use in twenty-four hours."

 

>Furthermore, most blue pigments

>available for painting at that time -- indigo, azurite, copper blues --

>had more or less greenish casts, so a greenish-blue dye would not be con-

>sidered out of place.

 

"Receipt to dye 8 lbs. of Deep Blue in Linen or Cotton.

Take 4 ounces of indigo and grind fine, 2 ounces of madder, 8 ounces

of copperas, 8 ounces of pot ash, 4 ounces of lime, and 1 ounce of

alum: mix it all together with 5 gallons of soft water...."

 

>In fact, I have been told

>by dyers that good greens are much harder to get than blues, given the

>availability of indigo, and indigo dye with an overdyeing of yellow is

>necessary to be able to make the best greens.

 

"To dye Cotton Yarn a Deep Blue.

Take one pound of logwood chipped fine or pounded and boil it in a

sufficient quantity of water till the whole colouring matter is

extracted, then take about half a gallon of this liquor and dissolve

it in an ounce of verdigris ... or if you want an elegant green, boil

hickory bark in the liquor and it will produce it."

 

"Saxon greens" are produced by dying with indigo sulphate after a

tin-and-oak-bark mordant.

Three other greens, however, are described as a blue dye followed by

a yellow, or vice versa.

 

All quotations are taken from "The Arcana of Arts and Sciences", by M.

Parker; this is a primary source, but only from 1824, and written in

the U.S. so some of the plants may not exist in Europe.

--  

Stephen Bloch

Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib

>sca>Caid>Calafia>St.Artemas

bloch at cs.ucsd.edu

 

                  

From: leeu at alex.stacken.kth.se (Leif Euren)

Date: 21 Jan 91 09:02:09 GMT

Organization: The Internet

 

Berengaria (<well!jeannec at apple.com> (Jeanne C. Stapleton)) writeth:

> ... I like the idea of telling people to match to a particular color

> of DMC embroidery floss.  Reason: have you ever looked through your

> kingdom's regalia?  There are several sets of surcoats/cloaks/etc.

> in the West Kingdom Regalia, most of which never get worn, largely

> because a hideous shade of green was used in their construction.

 

It's sad to see regaila unused, beacuse our modern eyes think the

colours are "hideous".  On the other hand: people in the Middle Ages

would have loved yarn and cloth of consistent colour.

 

> Think how much easier looking for "DMC #345" would be for local

> costumers trying to make surcoats for members of their shire or barony

> who were to be part of a kingdom levy or shieldwall. The color would

> be instantly identifiable to anyone glancing around as "part of my unit".

 

As it were (and this is my speculation) they reduced the numbers of

heraldic colours to allow for deviation, so that and soldier could

tell a friend, even if he had changed to a new tabard.

 

Thus, I don't see any fault in recommending a shade-by-number for

"official" items; be it paint, dyed textile or others.

We shouldn't make it a law, though.

 

Elaine NicMaoilan (<trifid at agora.rain.com> (Edward Fitzgerald)) writeth:

> ... I find it hard to believe consistency was not possible, within

> reason, in period!  (Not perfect matches, perhaps, but close enough

> for the casual observer to not see a glaring difference....) Surely

> weavers traded formulae and hanks of threads as samples?

 

Consistency in shade of colour is *VERY* difficult to obtain if one

has to resort to plant-dying, even in our Current Middle Ages, when we

in fact know how to make pecise records of previous dyings.  And in

the real Middle Ages, dyers did *NOT* trade their formulaes, as they

were their wealth.

 

But the again, shades "close enough for the casual observer to not see

a glaring difference" would be the pride of every master dyer, and

they certainly did appear during the Middle Ages.

 

        Herr Peder Klingrode           +---------------------------+

         Canton of Holmgard             | Leif Euren                |

         Barony of Nordmark             |                          |

         Principality of Drachenwald    | leeu at alex.stacken.kth.se  |

         Kingdom of the East            +---------------------------+

    

              

From: leeu at alex.stacken.kth.se (Leif Euren)

Date: 21 Jan 91 17:55:42 GMT

 

Herr Peder Klingrode greets all Gentle of the Rialto: Frid vare med Eder!

 

Lord Arenwald von Hagenburg (pears at latcs1.oz.au (Arnold N Pears)) writeth:

> I find it difficult to believe that any group prior to the 18th

> century would have placed much importance on the exact shade.

 

So do I, but I also argue that a person who could afford to outfit his

entire staff in a uniformly coloured livery, would do so to show off

his wealth: everybody could see that he had bought all that fabric at

the same time!

 

Sarra Graeham (Heather Fraser) writeth:

> ... the woad plant, which produces a dye chemically identical to

> indigo, was available and used as a dye in the British Isles from well

> before the Roman times.

 

And it was used in Scandinavia, too, in the 10th C.

 

> I'm sure that woad or indigo <...> produce a slightly greenish -- but

> unmistakable -- blue.

 

Depending of what kind of metal the kettle is of, you may get many

strange shades when dying with indigo.

 

> In fact, I have been told by dyers that good greens are much harder to

> get than blues, given the availability of indigo, and indigo dye with

> an overdyeing of yellow is necessary to be able to make the best

> greens.

 

If you (or rather, the dyers) by "good greens" mean "_beautiful_

greens", you're absolutely right.  And this is not even subjectively:

everybody (well, _almost_ everybody) will admit that yellow over-

coloured with indigo is more beautiful than naturally dyed green.

 

> Herr Peder, do you have more evidence to support your statement?

 

I'm sorry to say that I no evidence for my statements; it was just

something I read in a book on Heraldry, and I don't even remember

which (I'll have a look in my library, and I'll be back with a

reference if I find one).

I, too, would happily be corrected by someone who knew better.

 

> ... ground and processed lapis lazuli, could not be manufactured in

> Europe until the 13th C.

 

I don't really believe you. But then again, I may be wrong.

Could you explain why this was so?

 

    Herr Peder Klingrode, Canton of Holmgard    | Leif Euren

    Barony of Nordmark                          | Stockholm, Sweden

    Principality of Drachenwald, East           | leeu at alex.stacken.kth.se

 

 

From:    Chaz Butler

To:      "Ross M. Dickson

Date: 23-Jan-91 04:59pm

Subject: Re: 'official' colors

 

There is a woman at Pennsic every year with a dyer's wheel.  This has formula

from plants native to Britain and Europe fixed with various mineral salts.

The colors range from 5 shades of magenta, through hot pinks, bright oranges,

lime and electric greens, vivid blues, indigos, electric blues, and deep

purples, as well as browns and puces.  If she, with only a couple of years of

experimenting with plants native to Europe and a dyer's cloth can come up with

many shades, and duplicate them, then the dyers of Europe surely did the same.

 

                  

From: haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)

Date: 22 Jan 91 18:39:04 GMT

Organization: DECwest, Digital Equipment Corp., Bellevue WA

In article <9101210902.AAalex.stacken.kth.se22365 at alex.stacken.kth.se>,

leeu at alex.stacken.kth.se (Leif Euren) writes:

> Berengaria (<well!jeannec at apple.com> (Jeanne C. Stapleton)) writeth:

> > ... I like the idea of telling people to match to a particular color

> > of DMC embroidery floss.

>  

> Elaine NicMaoilan (<trifid at agora.rain.com> (Edward Fitzgerald)) writeth:

> > ... I find it hard to believe consistency was not possible, within

> > reason, in period!

>  

> But the again, shades "close enough for the casual observer to not see

> a glaring difference" would be the pride of every master dyer, and

> they certainly did appear during the Middle Ages.

 

I have seen the effects of dying a series of hanks in the same dye bath, they

all came out a different shade and the dyer admitted that predicting the

shade was next to impossible. I take this as evidence that reproducing a shade

was and is so difficult as to be futile to attempt. A close match should be

fairly simple, provided that only one dye bath is needed. Overdying such as

has been mentioned for green would make a close much very difficult.

 

The next thing to remember is that period dyes are rarely 'fast'. Most dyes

will fade in the sun, leach in the washing and bleed into the adjacent cloth.

A set of tabards will age the same only if they were all made of the same

materials, dyed using the processes. Given the multitude of processes to

obtain specific colours, and the inherent secrecy of the dyers, it is highly

unlikely that cloth from different sources will behave in the same way.

 

I harbour a deep suspiscion that the ancient tartans of complex design were

originally of simple design but suffered badly from bleeding of dyes before

someone recorded the design. I suspect that the concept of fimbriation

originated in the same way.

 

The existance of fast bright colours is relatively modern but deeply ingrained

in our culture. Plastics and cartoons are the biggest culprits as far as I am

concerned.

 

                Fiacha

                Aquaterra, AnTir

 

 

From: atterlep at vela.acs.oakland.edu (Alan Terlep)

Date: 22 Jan 91 15:37:22 GMT

Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI

 

leeu at alex.stacken.kth.se (Leif Euren) writes:

 

>Berengaria (<well!jeannec at apple.com> (Jeanne C. Stapleton)) writeth:

 

>> Think how much easier looking for "DMC #345" would be for local

>> costumers trying to make surcoats for members of their shire or barony

>> who were to be part of a kingdom levy or shieldwall.  The color would

>> be instantly identifiable to anyone glancing around as "part of my unit".

>

>As it were (and this is my speculation) they reduced the numbers of

>heraldic colours to allow for deviation, so that and soldier could

>tell a friend, even if he had changed to a new tabard.

 

  My first response on reading this was "arrgh!" The entire point of heraldry

is to make sure that people are recognizable on the battlefield.  If every

member of a group is wearing their heraldic badge there should be no problem

with identification.  In fact, most of the heraldic devices and badges we get

are rejected simply because they aren't clearly recognizable at a distance.  

Clarity is one of the prime criteria for deciding the acceptability of a piece

of heraldry.

  That said, there are a limited number of colors for just the reason Herr

Peter suggests.  In fact, the variation possible in heraldic colors is circum-

stantial evidence that there was difficulty in standardizing colors.  It does

bother me at times that I enjoy an art form whose spectrum is covered by a set

of Crayola markers, but anyone who has seen the "Heraldry" in the Pern source-

book (from a fantasy workd by Anne McCaffery) will understand the problems

with

"Per pale blue and light blue, in base an erupting volcano brown."  

 

Lord Fairfax Aluricson

Canton of the Riding of Hawkland Moor

Barony of Northwoods, Midrealm

atterlep at vela.acs.oakland.edu

 

                  

From: com259h at vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au

Date: 22 Jan 91 03:26:53 GMT

 

leeu at alex.stacken.kth.se (Leif Euren) writes:

> Elaine NicMaoilan (<trifid at agora.rain.com> (Edward Fitzgerald)) writeth:

>> ... I find it hard to believe consistency was not possible, within

>> reason, in period!  (Not perfect matches, perhaps, but close enough

>> for the casual observer to not see a glaring difference....) Surely

>> weavers traded formulae and hanks of threads as samples?

>