placenames-msg - 10/4/00

Origins and meanings of SCA place names. Some of the stories behind them. This is the first of two files.

NOTE: See also the files: Branch-Names-art, placenames2-msg, placenames3-msg, SCA-hist1-msg, SCA-stories1-msg, child-stories-msg, you-know-msg, border-stories-msg, Hst-SCA-Fence-art.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Note: This is the third of the 3 placenames-msg files in the Florilegium. I am still looking for the stories behind the SCA group names not given in these files. If you know the story behind a name not given in these files, please send me an email with the group name and story so that I may add it to these files.

Thanks,
   Stefan

From: Dafydd Ap Rhys
To: Orilee_J_Ireland-Delfs.Wbst845 at xero
Re: Group names
Date: 12 May 91 01:26:54

Unto Orianna vander Delft, greetings

        You did ask about the story of groups names.  When I first joined
the Society I was curious about some of the names in my neck of the woods,
so I asked about them. The Shire I currently live is Northkeep, Ansteorra
(Tulsa, Ok) Northkeep is the northern most group in Ansteorra. The Barony of
Eldern Hills (Lawton Ok) is located in the Arbuckle Mts. The Arbuckles are
one of the oldest Mountain Ranges in the world. There was a Shire of
Morrow's Keep (Ada, Oklahoma). The town of Ada was founded by one Ada
Morrow.  The first Shire I belonged to was The Shire of Mooneshadow
(Stillwater Ok) I still haven't figured this one out. Mooneshadows neighbor
is the Barony of Weisenfeur(sp?) ( Oklahoma City ) I am told that
Weisenfeur roughly translates from German to "Burning wheat", which is a
darned good description of central Oklahoma. The oldest Barony in Northern
Ansteorra is the Barony of Namron (Norman Ok.) Namron is Norman backwards.
(sigh)

                Yours in Service
                        Dafydd ap Rhys


From: Alex_Hart at mindlink.bc.ca (Alex Hart)
Date: 10 May 91 13:32:09 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada

Here in mundane Vancouver B.C.,the choice fell to Lions Gate,and although I was
not around in those days,it was probably an easy choice. Nearby,up in the hills
are two peaks which can be easily seen from most points around
Vancouver.Without too much imagination,the can be taken for couchant lions and
are indeed known as "The Lions".And as they look like the stone lions often
seen at gateways or entrances(you know sort of like garden gnomes in a way)
many things around are known as Lions Gate(a bridge and hospital come to mind
quickly).So ,Lions GAte was chosen.I do understand that in the early days there
were so many gentles with Russian personnae in the area there was thought of
clling it "Lions Gate in Russian" . Not in the Russian language but just as you
see it.Luckily ( I guess :-) ) saner (?) minds prevailed and the idea was
dropped in favour of the simpler Lions Gate.

Alastair the Eastern Traveller
Lions Gate,An Tir


From: tmf4387 at tamsun.tamu.edu (Michael Phelan (mka Michael Farlow))
Date: 13 May 91 16:03:06 GMT
Organization: Shire of the Shadowlands (Texas A&M Univ.)

Orilee_J_Ireland-Delfs.Wbst845 at xerox.COM writes:
>In working with Fridrikr on the Society Regnum, I found the names of groups to
>be quite fascinating.  Some naming practices were very regional (for example,
>many of the south western and western US groups used Spanish names or
>translations, many of the groups in Drachenwald have germanic names).  Others
>gave you no clue as to why a group was called that.
>
>It would be fascinating to find out why a group came up with the name they did.
>Some of this just came out on the Heralds talknet from Lord Arval in his
>listing of the East Kingdom Heraldic Titles and the reason for most of the
>titles being what they were.
>
>Anyone else want to share their group's "story"?
>
>Orianna vander Delft

From the desk of Michael Phelan of the Shadowlands does this missive bring
greetings to the fishers on the Rialto...

Mistress Orianna asked to hear of the story behind the names of the local 
groups.  I can relate the story of my own group and can probably guess at
one of the local barony's.

My local group is the Shire of the Shadowlands in the Kingdom of Ansteorra
(Long Live Queen Rowan!!)  [editorial sidenote here---Duke Inman one the
Ansteorran Crown Tournament for his 5th time this weekend, so I guess the
Once and Everyother King lives on  :-].  We (or should I say the originals?)
call ourselves that since the being located in Bryan/College Station Texas 
(Where Texas A&M is), we are surrounded by baronies:  Stargate (Houston) to
the Southeast, Bjournsbourg (San Antonio, owners of the BFT {Big F_cking Tent
at TFYC}) to the SW, Bryn Gwlad (Austin) to the West, Raven's Fort to the
East, Steppes (Dallas) and Elf Sea (Ft. Worth) to the north. 

On Many of the known world maps, Baronies are depicted with two (2) towers
while shires and cantons have only one.  The orginal Shire folk thought that
since we were surrounded by *ALL* of these towers, that we were in their
shadows, ergo, Shadowlands.

Also, the story that I like, and is an inside joke, is that we of the
Shadowlands are all a bunch of little mushrooms, since many like to keep
us in the dark and feed us sh_t.

In Service,

Michael Phelan
Deupty Seneschal/Public Relations
Shire of the Shadowlands, Ansteorra


From: justin at inmet.inmet.COM (Justin du Coeur MKA Mark Waks)
Date: 13 May 91 18:20:15 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Re: Group names

Orianna asks where groups got their names from. The answer for Carolingia
becomes relatively obvious once you realize that Boston's most distinctive
geographic landmark is the Charles River. Thus, the name "Carolingia" comes
from the river (via Latin), and the pall wavy (a sort of drunken "Y" for the
non-heralds) on the device is representative of the river...

(And the title Golden Gryphon Pursuivant comes from the yellow Gryphons
that aren't on our device. Historical artifacts are so wonderful...)

                                -- Justin du Coeur
                                   Philosopher of Carolingia


From: JCASE at pearl.tufts.EDU ("John H. Case")
Date: 14 May 91 18:27:33 GMT

A minor correction to Justin du Coeur's posting about the Carolingian name.  The pall wavy on the arms and badges of Carolingia actually (I belive) is supposed to symbolize the congruence of the Charles and Mystic rivers, and the three areas the field is thus divided into symbolize the three counties of Norfolk, Suffolk, and Middlesex.

And yes, the Golden Gryphon Pursuivant is named for the gryphons that are not there.  When the arms of Carolingia were proposed in the mists of time, they included a pair of gryphons sejant respectant on either side of the vertical arm of the pall.  This was rejected by Council as being too hard to draw.   When I, then glorying in the title "Pursuivant at Arms in Ordinary to the Barony of Carolingia" had to  propose a  title for my office, I proposed "Golden Gryphon" (keep quiet, you James Bond fans).  Cou
ncil approved, the name was submitted, and I became the first "Golden Gryphon Pursuivant."  One final note,Council also approved a badge for my office, consisting of the arms of Carolingia WITH the Gryphons, and without the laurel wreath.  The badge was never submitted.  The gryphons weretoo hard to draw.

-Taran of Windy Hill
first  (and fourth) Golden Gryphon, now very thankfully retired from  that office.


From: 6790753%356_WEST_58TH_5TH_FL%NEW_YORK_NY%WNET_6790753 at mcimail.COM ("KATMAN.WNETS385")
Date: 14 May 91 19:11:00 GMT

Good day good gentles,
Being a short list of groups in the Southern East Kingdom and how they got
their names (if I'm wrong I know you'll correct me :) :
  There are several groups in NJ that were named for local landmarks. Barren
Sands (Southern NJ Shore...below the Mason Dixon line :) is in the Pine Barrens
and most of the soil there is sand.
  Carillon (Central NJ) was named that because all the founders lived within
sound of Princeton U's bell's carillon. Keep by the Endless Sea (a canton of
Carillon) is Bradley Beach, NJ right on the Atlantic Ocean.
  Settmour Swamp (North Central NJ) is composed of SomerSET and MORris counties
(as well as a few others) and there is a real swamp right in the middle. There
are 2 cantons of Settmour, Gryphonwald and Marwick. I do not know how they
picked their names (Jessa? Mitchell?).
  Iron Bog (South Jersey) has a lot of small lakes and areas that were
cranberry bogs (not sure about the iron part, maybe because of industry in
Camden, NJ).
  Rusted Woodlands (North Jersey and South Eastern NY West of the Hudson) was
formed from the ashes of a group called Iron Forest, presumably named for the
juxtaposition of wooded land and the heavy industry in the area.
  Whyt Whey (canton of Ostgardr in Manhattan... you know, Broadway, the Great
White Way) well, that says it all. Someone else can tell the naming of Ostgardr
(5 NYC boroughs + LI and 2 upstate counties...Dawyd?), I don't tell it well,
being a cheese farmer from 9-5 only (one of the translations of Ostgardr is
East Guard, another is cheese farm).
  St. Pyr's Well (a defunct canton of Ostgardr on Staten Island) is named for
St. Pyr, an 8th century Welsh saint who died when he fell down a well. Really,
check the saint books. For more on the Hagiography of St. Pyr I have to defer
to Johannes v. N. (please tell the story 'Hannes, please?).

Winifred de Schyppewallebotham
(that's Middle English for "From the valley with the stream where the sheep
were washed")
Lee Katman == Thirteen/WNET == New York, NY


From: haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)
Date: 15 May 91 01:42:33 GMT
Organization: DECwest, Digital Equipment Corp., Bellevue WA

The tale I heard of the naming of Ostgardr was that the group wanted to
call it East Guard. It being then the only group in the East. Someone,
possibly a herald objected so the Norse types worked out that Ostgardr
was pronounced East guard and either looked like or really was a direct
translation. Over the years, the populace replaced itself and the
pronunciation changed.

        Fiacha,
        Aquaterra, AnTir


"The tale I heard of the naming of Ostgardr was that the group wanted
to call it East Guard. It being then the only group in the East.
Someone, possibly a herald objected so the Norse types worked out
that Ostgardr was pronounced East guard and either looked like or
really was a direct translation." (Fiacha)

The original form was Estgard; I think that in that form it was
invented by Garanhir of Ness. I believe someone around at the time
who knew old Norse, probably Sir Eiolf Ericsson, proposed the
conversion to Ostgardr, meaning Eastern City or something
similar--analogous to Micklegardr (sp?) ("Big City"), which is what
the Norse called Constantinople. 

At the time the name originated, New York was certainly not the only
group in the East.

Someone asked about my name. For the full story, see the letter in TI
46 starting on page 32. I am not the author; I wish I were.

I originally intended it as a variant on the name of Carahue of
Mauretania, a Moslem King in the Chanson de Geste Ogier le Danois.
Years later, when I had decided I ought to be more careful about such
things, I went to a friend who was a professional linguist and asked
him to find a plausible Arabic name that might have been
mispronounced "Cariadoc" by the Franks. The letter in T.I. 46,
starting on page 32, was the result; it was written, not by me, but
by my friend, and is a fine example of in persona writing.

Qari-al-Dhuq, known among the Franks as Cariadoc


From: PSCHROED at DREW.BITNET ("Schroeder, P. David")
Date: 14 May 91 04:55:00 GMT
Organization: The Internet
Subject: Group Naming Stories

I'd like to share a few stories about how groups got their names.
Since I joined the Society in 1975/XI I was part of the naming
process for four groups and two SCA-related publications.

The name for the Canton of Ivory Tower (Swarthmore College) was determined
by folks that had more experience in the Society than I did, but ALL of us
cheered the designation. It was a perfect fit for a small, cerebral liberal
arts school.  The group "folded" a number of years ago, but the Barony of
Bhakail (Philadelphia) retains the name should it be resurrected.

Next I traveled to Princeton, NJ and served as the first seneschal of the
Shire (now the barony) of Carillion.  That name was based on some digging
in Bullfinch's Mythology.  Caer Leon, the fabled capital of King Arthur,
was supposed to have had a college, a seminary, and a school for singers.
Princeton had the university, the theological school, and a famous choir
college. It seemed a good fit, but I was advised by the wise Lady Melisande
de Belvoir (now Duchess) that the East already had plenty of "caers" and
I should try another tack.  Later that week I heard the bells chiming
in churches near campus and realized that Norman invaders could easily
mis-hear Arthur's Caer Leon for the more familiar French word "Carillion."
Everyone else liked the story and that is why Carillion bears a bell on
its device.

The College of Grey Gargoyles (University of Chicago) was named for two
rather striking features of the place - first, there are gargoyles all
over, especially on a beautiful gate that forms the "official" entrance
to campus.  Second, the color adjective not only referred to the color
of the stone the beasties were carved from, but also the name of the
President of the University back in the late 1970's, Hannah Gray.
[Is she still there, Cariadoc?]  Charles Gray, her husband and a
period(?) historian served as our first advisor (on the condition
that the position be a sinecure).  I find it rather amusing that
Tree-girt-sea (the province that now includes all of Chicago) got
started at U. of C. many years earlier (Cariadoc/DF was well known
around the place, especially with the folks who reserved space...)
and had migrated to the opposite end of town, about 15 miles away
by the time my lady and I arrived.  Other groups can tell stories
of mass-migrations or population shifts.  Carillion has moved toward
the east and Princeton is no longer within its official bounds!
Gray Gargoyles device was basically a blue shield with a "gray"
embattled fess between a "gray(argent)" gargolye and a laurel wreath.

We helped form a canton in the north suburbs of Pittsburgh when
we traveled again.  Because of the unusual topography of the
Debateable Lands (lots of rivers, streams, hills, etc.) there
are bridges all over the place.  Due to the "decaying infra-
structure" in the area, at the time the canton was forming there
were five bridges under repair and it seemed appropriate (since
an older group was folding at the same time) to call it the
Canton of Broken Bridges.  The device of the canton featured a
gold shield with two green laurel wreaths between three broken
bridges in black.

The name for the Compleat Anachronist pamphlet series (which my
lady and I initiated during our term at TI Editors/SCA Chroniclers,
and which was ably nurtured by Viscountess Nige of the Cleftlands),
was chosen simply because I believed it had sufficient "scope" to
cover any topic that might come up.  It probably owes a subconscious
dept to L. Sprague de Camp's "Incompleat Enchanter" series, but also
draws on titles of various late period compendiums.

Finally, the AEstel (newsletter for the new Eastern principality
of AEthelmearc) came from some historical/heraldic research.  I
discovered that an aestel was the name for a small pointer used
by teachers in their instructions, but it also meant "little pikestaff."
Since the Pikestaff is the name of the East Kingdom's newsletter it
seemed an appropriate "tribute."  From its first meaning "aestel"
also has the implication of "instructions" or "information."

[Eromene reminded me that the "pointer" an aestel was referring to
was small and was also used as a "bookmark."  I'm missing my
original sources...]

My lady and I were off in Calontir when the new principality was
named, but it seems only fitting that the newsletter we'd named
should share the initial AE with the name of its territory.
[The first prince was originally from - Broken Bridges...]

I hope you've enjoyed hearing about the names that I have personally
helped to "coin."  I'd like to hear other people tell of the origins
of their own group's name in future posts.

Many thanks,
Bertram of Bearington                      PSCHROED at drew.edu


From: Z4610816 at SFAUSTIN.BITNET (Z4610816)
Date: 15 May 91 09:33:47 GMT
Organization: The Internet

I tried to send this before, but I got back an "undeliverable" message.
My apologies if this duplicates earlier postings.
-istress
Greetings, Y'all.  I offer another Ansteorran naming story, particularly
since I beieve there is no one else left in the society who knows it.
When we were organizing our poor shire, we sought inspiration in vain.
We were all newbies, and had no unity of ethnos.  We had English, Norse,
Byzantine, and Generic personnas, so we needed a nice, non-commital name.
A mundane friend (who would not like to see his name remembered) looked
out my dorm room window at the 60' pines dripping with three weeks of
drizzle, and said "How about 'Graywood'."  The spelling is still contro-
versial, with half the shire stubbornly spelling it "Greywood".  My own
research ten years ago dated "grey" to the late seventeenth century, and
I am still waiting for one of the "e" partisans to prove me wrong.
-
      Lord Lyelf Hrothbjartsson the Lame, S.C., AoA, Q.R.
       AKA "Uncle Bob", the remaining Founding Father of Graywood.

Bob Lyle <Z4610816 at sfaustin.bitnet>


From: dmb at inls1.ucsd.edu (Doug Brownell)
Date: 16 May 91 18:47:19 GMT
Organization: Institute for Nonlinear Science

Greetings from Thomas Brownwell in sunny Calafia;

David Rogoff writes:
>Just found this out last week:
>
>  Kingdom of Caid  is from the from groups that were in it when it formed:
> 
>    C-  Califia      (San Diego)
>    A-  Angles       (Los Angeles)
>    I-  Isles        (Santa Barbara)
>    D-  Dreiburgen   (Riverside/San Bernadino)

It just so happened that in arabic (I think) the word caid means
fortress.  I have a 1938 english dictionary, and it lists caid by
this definition. 

A bit of trivia --  The crown prince of Caid is referred to as
al-Caid, and I had always assumed that it meant something as simple
as "The Caid" or "Of Caid" (which it probably does), but my
dictionary lists alcaid as being the keeper of the fortress, almost
like Castellan or Major-General.  Someone had a good knowledge of
english, or a lot of luck in choosing that title.  

Enough for now.  Thomas

Douglas M. Brownell                     |  Thomas Brownwell
Institute for Nonlinear Science, R-002  |  Barony of Calafia
University of California, San Diego     |  Kingdom of Caid
La Jolla, CA 92093                      |
                                        |  Anachronist (noun):
Internet: dmb at inls1.ucsd.edu            |  Out of time;
          dbrownell at ucsd.edu            |  Gotta go!


From: joshua at paul.rutgers.edu (Josh Mittleman)
Date: 15 May 91 13:48:44 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

Greetings from Arval!

This is the story of the name of Ostgardr, as best I know it.  I wasn't
there, so some of it is probably mythology, but so what?  Myths make good
stories.  

The East Kingdom, of course, started in NYC.  For a rather long time, what
with more than half the kings living in NY, most of the peers being in NY,
and like that, NY was simply referred to as "the East".  As other groups
formed (Carolingia, Mrqud, Bhakail, etc.), it came to be known as "The
Crown Province."  It was ruled directly by the Crown.  At some point, the
fact that the Crown Province had no name became something of a joke, and it
came to be known as "The Nameless Province."  An actual name was, indeed,
coined by Sir Garanhir, as Cariadoc recounted.  "Ostgardr" (properly
spelled with a stroke through the O and with the Norse lower-case thorn
instead of a d, means roughly "East Castle" or "East City".  It is
pronounced vaguely like "OOST-garth(r)", with the final r nearly silent.

A common joke on the name (of which I do not know the origin) is that if
you spell it "Ostgard", it means "cheese farm."  To this day, the
Ostgardians occasionally describe themselves as the Happy Cheesefarmers.

        Arval.


From: hamilton at adi.COM (Cindy Hamilton)
Date: 15 May 91 14:33:51 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Unto the Fisherfolk of the Rialto,
from Angelica Paganelli,
her most courteous greetings:

The Shire of Cynnabar (in the Middle Kingdom) has a name with meaning on
several levels.  Cinnabar (of which Cynnabar is an alternate spelling) is
a mercuric ore that can be found near Ann Arbor.  It is familiar as a 
reddish mineral carved into jewelry in China.  Translated, it means 
"dragons' blood" (or perhaps that's the Chinese name for the mineral--it's
been about ten years since I heard this stuff).  As the dragon is symbolic
of the Middle Kingdom, Cynnabar is the heart's blood of the kingdom
(doo-dah, doo-dah).  [I'm a little cynical about this whole nationalism
thing.]

We had some trouble in trying to register this name; there is a science
fiction novel about a city called Cinnabar where odd thing happen.  (I
haven't read it myself, actually.)  We had to do a quick soft shoe for
the College of Heralds, and convince them we didn't intend to style our
city after the fictional one; we also wrote the author of the novel and
asked his permission to use his copyrighted city's name.  He acceded.

Now that I think of it, the registered name of Cynnabar is the Royal Burgh
of Cynnabar.  I think this was some effort at making it plain that the
Free and Peace-Loving (but Militarily Strong) Shire of Cynnabar is not
under the thumb of the Squire-Crushing Barony of Northwoods.  Also, there
was some sentiment that "Shire" seemed a little too rural for an essentially
urban group.

That's all I can remember of it.

Written this 15th Day of May, A.S. XXVI,
at Casa Salone Rigararsi, in the Shire of Cynnabar, Middle Kingdom

Cindy Hamilton
Applied Dynamics International
3800 Stone School Road
Ann Arbor, MI  48108
(313)973-1300
hamilton at adi.com
hamilton at amara.uucp
uunet!amara!hamilton


From: rogoff at teradyne.UUCP (David Rogoff)
Date: 15 May 91 18:11:17 GMT
Organization: Teradyne STD, CAE

Just found this out last week:

  Kingdom of Caid  is from the from groups that were in it when it formed:
 
    C-  Califia      (San Diego)
    A-  Angles       (Los Angeles)
    I-  Isles        (Santa Barbara)
    D-  Dreiburgen   (Riverside/San Bernadino)

  Also, my barony, Altavia (Pronounced Al-tay-vee-uh) is a play
on the spanish alta-via or high-way because of all the highways crossing
the San Fernando Valley.

David Rogoff (in between personas)


From: 0003900943 at mcimail.COM (Marla Lecin)
Date: 15 May 91 18:35:00 GMT
Organization: The Internet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Greetings unto the Rialto, from Baroness Jessa d'Avondale.

As to group names in New Jersey:

I can't say for sure about Rusted Woodlands (North NJ), but in the area
of Iron Bog (SW NJ) they really did mine for iron ore at one time.

When we started our canton, Marwick, several years ago:  Master Christopher
Darras wanted a nifty name having to do with Saint Hugh, whose symbol
is a swan, since it's so easy to buy swan-shaped items (serving pieces, etc).
No one really agreed with him, and at one of our first meetings we spent
time going through lots of books.  We tried for something Netherland-ish
(low countries, and all) and someone came up with Nethermoor (we are a canton
of Settmour *Swamp*, after all). 

This led to inevitable thoughts of E.A. Poe, and when I said, "Well, why
just not design a device with a raven on it" (sarcastically), some people
thought that was the way to go.  A more vocal portion of the group felt
that puns were fine, but not puns based on 19th century authors.  

Next we tried putting all the possible names on a list, and asking each person
to cross off any name they absolutely could not live with.  I was one of the
people backing "Marwick", "Fenwick", and similar names. They mean something
like "the village in the moors/swamp"; I preferred them because they sounded
more like real place-names to me. 

Jessa
Marla_Lecin at mcimail.com


From: justin at inmet.inmet.COM (Justin du Coeur MKA Mark Waks)
Date: 15 May 91 19:58:09 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Fiacha writes:
>The tale I heard of the naming of Ostgardr was that the group wanted to
>call it East Guard. It being then the only group in the East. Someone,
>possibly a herald objected so the Norse types worked out that Ostgardr
>was pronounced East guard and either looked like or really was a direct
>translation. Over the years, the populace replaced itself and the
>pronunciation changed.

Well, Ostgardr certainly wasn't the only group in the East when it got
its name; when NYC was all there was to the East Kingdom, it simply called
itself "The East Kingdom". (Indeed, in those early days, the Crown was
actually restricted to people who lived within -- I think -- 50 miles
of the City.)

As I understand it, once the Baronies (Carolingia, Bhakail, Myrkwode,
probably one or two others I'm forgetting) started popping up, "The East
Kingdom" was loathe to cease calling itself that, and started referring
to itself as The Capital Province, or some such. People from other groups
started calling it "The Nameless Province", which didn't sit too well,
so it eventually took on the name Ostgardr. (I gather that the "cheese
farmer" confusion relates to whether or not the appropriate diacritical
marks are on the O...) It still retains the possibly-unique designation
of "Crown Province", last I checked...

(Caveat: the above is strictly from memory of The Files, plus hearsay
stories. But it *sounds* good, anyway...)

                                -- Justin du Coeur
                                   Chief Paper-Lugger for the EK Historian


From: wlinden at msb.com (Alfgar the Sententious)
Date: 16 May 91 03:49:31 GMT
Organization: Meetpoint Station BBS

In <May.15.09.48.43.1991.23031 at paul.rutgers.edu> joshua at paul.rutgers.edu (Josh Mittleman) writes:

>Greetings from Arval!

>and like that, NY was simply referred to as "the East".  As other groups
>formed (Carolingia, Mrqud, Bhakail, etc.), it came to be known as "The
>Crown Province."  It was ruled directly by the Crown.  At some point, the
 Actually, it became an annoyance that people in such far reaches as Beyond
the Mountain kept referring to visitors "from the East Kingdom".
>fact that the Crown Province had no name became something of a joke, and it
>came to be known as "The Nameless Province."  An actual name was, indeed,
 This was decreed as the equivalent of a "holding name" when it became an
issue, until the people could agree on something.
>coined by Sir Garanhir, as Cariadoc recounted.  "Ostgardr" (properly
  What Garanhir coined, and will tell you most strongly, was "Estgard"
(apparently from vague associations with Midgard, Asgard, etc.) However, on
the day of the meeting to consider it, Sir Eiolf Eriksson picked the
occasion to emerge from the woodwork (and has not been seen since.) He
complained that "Estgard" was not authentic Old Norse, and browbeat the
meeting into that thing which can only be pronounced by a full-blooded
Icelander. The question nobody dared ask was "Who said it was supposed to
be Old Norse?" 
   I understand we were told later by a credentialled scholar that
"Ostgardr" is not proper Norse either. Sigh....
-- 
Will Linden                                 MCI: WLINDEN
Internet: wlinden at msb.com             "On to the castle, to kill the royal
UUCP: ...uupsi!mpoint!wlinden          family, and claim the throne that 
Compuserve: 72737,2150                 isn't mine by right!"


From: nomad at watson.ibm.com (Lee 'nomad' Damon)
Date: 17 May 91 13:47:19 GMT
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center, NY

Unto the Fisherfolk of the Rialto, Greetings!

The Freehold of Turris Nimborum (aka Wet or soggy Tower) was named for
the fact that it was on a college campus (Ivory Tower type things) in
Oregon.  It was not unusual for our events to be rained on at least
once per event.

It was formed when the local Graff told a friend of mine "You _will_
start a group on campus." My friend was the first seneschal, I was the
second. We had close ties to the local shire (Coeur du Val, which
is named from the city we were in - Corvallis).

I'm not going to try to blazon the device, but basically it is a tower
superimposed over three wavy blue lines.

I've no idea if the group still exists, but it was going strong when
I left there in '88.

On a different note, the shire that I'm now a member of wanted
to call themselves "Val Cour" but were told they had a conflict
with a far off shire... the shire of Coeur du Val. Strange
coincidences abound, as only a few months after this obscure
An Tirian shire was brought to their attention, I move into the
area. Who'd'a thunk it. :-)

Laurus aka nomad mka Lee Damon


From: cat at fgssu1.sinet.slb.COM (Insignificant Pondscum)
Date: 20 May 91 22:23:20 GMT
Organization: The Internet

To Keradwc and anybody else who's interested:

Gorgonoth (canton of Angels), founded by Waldt and Alison
von Markheim became the Barony of Dreibergen with
Alison and Waldt as first Baroness and Baron.  They
called it Dreibergen because of the three big mountains
within the Barony's borders : Mount San Gregorio, Mount
San Jacinto, and (!) Mount Baldy (!).  Now, all of you
present and former caidans (of which I am one too!) are
probably thinking: but Mount Baldy's in Heatherwine!?!

Well, Mount Baldy is in Heatherwine, but Heatherwine
wasn't around when Dreibergen was founded.  The area
that makes up Heatherwine today was originally part of
Dreibergen.  That territory was ceded when Heatherwine
became a shire.  

Now when Alsion told me the story of the founding of
Dreibergen (because I foolishly wanted to know where
the name came from...), after she told me about giving
Mount Baldy away to Heatherwine, I asked her why they
didn't change the name to "Zweibergen" (I even kept a
straight face when I did this, which was remarkable under 
the circumstances).  And the look I got out of Alison
can only be imagined if you know Alison (if looks could
wither, I'd be a prune by now...).  <Ya sure, it was fun!>

The Completely Innocent Tux (really!  no kidding! would
I ever pull anyone's leg?!?  Me?!?)


From: bethmo at microsoft.UUCP (Beth MOURSUND)
Date: 19 May 91 07:34:35 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp., Redmond WA

Here's a list of some An Tir names and their origins, as told to me
by various folk many years ago...

An Tir: Gaelic for "The Land" -- let's be presumptuous, shall we?
Adiantum: the botanical name of the founding baroness's favorite flower,
  possibly misspelled
Three Mountains: originally tried to register as "The Barony of the
  Mountains" but heralds rejected as too general.  So the baron looked
  out his window and saw three mountains.  Resubmitted as "Three
  Mountains" and it passed.  (Known for a few years as "2 1/2 Mountains"
  after St. Helens erupted...)
Madrone: a tree native to the area
Lions Gate: name of a large bridge in the mundane city
Wastekeep: site of mundane nuke facility
Coeur du Val: mundane town of Corvallis translated into French
Southmarch: shire on the far southern border
Dragon's Mist: local "myth" that the fog was dragon's breath
Dragon's Lair: another "myth" about dragons
Seagirt: it's an island
Shittemwoode: official explanation: the wood that the arc of the covenant
  was made from.  Unofficial: hey, this was the group that Fast Eddie --
  er, excuse me, Viscount Sir Edward Zifran -- founded.  And they have
  a drowning rabbit carrying a shepards crook for their arms...
College of St. Bunstable: named after a fictional saint created locally
  whose fame has spread far across the known world
Appledore: founder lived on an apple farm

-- Shara Tunoy, originally from Adiantum, now resident in Madrone
   and mostly inactive


From: kevin%athens.dnet at isi.COM (Keradwc an Cai)
Date: 20 May 91 00:32:42 GMT
Organization: The Internet

The origins of names:

The only one I've been directly involved with is that of the (then)
Shire (now Barony) of Starkhafn in Las Vegas, Nevada. A number of 
variants were used temporarily, but the only one which gained
any support was Starkhafn itself - although dozens of spelling
variants came up.

Why? Well, Las Vegas is a haven in the middle of the desert, but not 
much of one; thus, "stark". The linguistically pure might object to the 
two-language puns, but it's all there was.

Others which I have second-or-third-hand reports of (and don't 
mind being corrected on) are:

Angels (Barony in Caid):  Los Angeles county, for obvious reasons.
Greywinds (old canton):   City of Los Angeles, for obvious reasons
Calafia (Barony in Caid): the old name for the area now called San Diego.
Altavia (Barony in Caid): High Road, with a black fret; Freeways and
                          freeway crossings. (San Fernando Valley & 
                          northern Los Angeles areas.)
Dreiburgen (Barony in Caid): the common mundane nickname for the area is the
                          Inland Empire (honest); the other is the
                          Tri-City Area. Though I went to school in 
                          what _might_ have been one of the three, nobody
                          then was able to tell me for a fact which that
                          third one was. (Riverside/San Bernardino/? areas)
Gyldenholt (Barony in Caid): Golden Groves - for the Orange County area
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 | Keradwc an Cai     |                          |  In the Mists of the West |
 |--------------------|--------------------------|---------------------------|


From: david at twg.com (David S. Herron)
Date: 20 May 91 01:24:30 GMT
Organization: The Wollongong Group, Palo Alto, CA

I joined the SCA in Central Kentucky and, so long as people are
talking about how groups got named, I've got a couple to relate.

Shire of Dragonsmark: This is a group which had a burst of activity
quite awhile back (say, 15 years ago) which died off after a couple
of years.  I do not know what made it die off, I was not involved
back then but happened to know a few of the people who WERE involved.
I did not join up until about 10 years afterwards when the group
had resurrected itself.

What I was told (or maybe it was Kwellend this was told to) by the old-timers
of the group was: This is a corruption of "Dragons March".  That is,
we were at-or-near the southern border of the Middle Kingdom.  A "march"
is supposed to be a border territory, probably 1 days march across.
Since the main symbol in the Middle is the dragon ....

College of the Cheval Flamant: This was an abortive attempt to have
a group on the U of Kentucky campus, mostly so that the Shire could
have access to university facilities.  I happened to be in on the
naming of this, and may well have come up with the actual words.  The
idea was, though, that all around us were flaming things of some
sort, so there must've been something about the area which made
all these flaming things ....

(We were in a kingdom with a dragon.  The local shire repeated the
"dragon" motif.  In Louisville there is a flaming sword (Barony of
the Flame), and in Cincinatti is a flaming bird (Shire of Fenix).)

Now, Central Kentucky has a lot of horses around, soooo...  Oh, and
my persona is French.

Dunno if the college ever became an official group...  (?)

        David


From: comqoic at BUACCA.BITNET ("Ed Wang ", comqoic at bu.buacca.edu)
Date: 20 May 91 17:20:20 GMT
Organization: The Internet

 To all denizens of the Rialto, both learned and verbose,
  I add my two cents worth concerning the borough of Southebanke,
  the college group of Boston University, located in that most
  pleasant of lands, Carolingia.

 The city of Boston is separated from the neighboring city of
  Cambridge by the Charles River. As I heard it told, Boston University
  is located on the southern bank of this river -- therefore,
  our name -- Southebanke.

 Were we to annex M.I.T., then we could name it Northebanke...
  yeah, that's the ticket...

 Oh, also, are there any precedents for changing place names?
  Are place names corresponding to real places acceptable?
  Who should we talk to about that, if we were to change
  our name?

 Desperately seeking silver in fair Carolingia,
  -- The Zhong-Shan Wolf, Wang Kuei


From: Dale at coyote.cs.wmich.EDU
Date: 21 May 91 13:11:08 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Namining of Groups:
Years ago I help start a group. The name we picked was the Canton of Three Walls. The town we was in had three state prisons.
30 miles away another group started, called Rimsholt. Sometimes refered too as rim shot.  Three Walls and Rimsholt merged. Some of the local jokers Was claiming the new group was going to be called "Three Shots For A Dollar".
 

From: warren at tsnews.Convergent.COM (Warren Brown)
Date: 21 May 91 15:42:45 GMT
Organization: Convergent Technologies, San Jose, CA

Since there is at least one story behind every place-name in
the SCA this thread could go on for a long time, but I do think
these glimpses of our own history are interesting.

The Barony of Bjornsborg in Ansteorra got its name from the
mainly Nordic early group in San Antonio, led by seneschal Herward
the Dane who was also active in NFPS.  It's a generic 
Scandinavian translation of "Bear's Fort", punning on Bexar
(pronounced "Bayer") county and the multitude of military bases
in San Antonio.  The Shire's symbol was of course a bear.  A couple
of years later Greyraven (the "founding" baron) added a fool's cap
to the bear.  Another couple of years and the baronial device was
modified to its present form (two bears maintaining berdiches) by
Baron Jan w Orzeldom.

Prior to creation of the Bjornsborg name in AS IX the fledgling 
group in San Antonio tried a few other names, only one of which
I remember: the "Wastes".  South Texas was so labelled on an early
SCA map prepared by (I think) Barok Baran, who was not impressed 
by the time he spent in Texas.

The Barony of Stargate in Houston chose their name because of the 
NASA space center (following the lead of the Astros and their dome).
With respect to the previous posting of the naming of the Shadowlands,
I believe when the Shadowlands chose their name the only baronies in
Texas were the Steppes, Stargate and Bjornsborg.  The ease with which
Aggie jokes convert to Shadowlander jokes is a great convenience to
all neighbors of the Shadowlands.  :-)  They may still have felt 
overshadowed by all those baronial towers; I certainly never heard
any other reason for their name.

One of my favorite group names was created at a tournament in
South Downs (Atlanta, GA) in about AS VII.  At court the 
citizens of a new group wished to make a presentation to Baron
Sven.  The herald started to announce them, then paused and turned
to the leader, "I'm sorry m'lord, but I don't know the name of your
group."  The response was, "Neither do we," in a fine Tennessee
accent.  So the presentation from the incipient Shire of Nyther Dwee
was duly announced.  I've probably butchered the spelling, but they
liked the name and kept it.

Warren Brown                 ||      Darcy Graham
Silicon Valley               ||      Esfenn, Mists, West


From: Alex_Hart at mindlink.bc.ca (Alex Hart)
Date: 22 May 91 00:19:56 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada

To the gentle who asked about the origin of the name for the Shire of Appledore
here in An Tir, I took the time to ask one their citizens who now resides in
Lions Gate. The answer is (not too surprisingly) Yes, this name was inspired by
the poem quoted from A.A. Milne. The originater of the shire is named Thomas
both mundanely and in the society and coming from a region renowned for its'
apples,what else could a Pooh bear fan call it ?
Alastair the Eastern Traveller
Lions Gate,An Tir


From: polito at husc9.harvard.edu (Maya)
Date: 23 May 91 13:18:01 GMT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

Greetings, good gentles.

Another story to add to the growing list of place name origins:
I am a member of the burrough of Duncharloch (also, I believe, spelled 
Duncaerloch) in fair Carolingia.  (Burrough is a baronial name for groups
affiliated with a college.)  As I have heard the story, our name means
"Tower on the Charles,"  which is an appropriate name for a group started
in a seventeen story dorm on the bank of the Charles river.  But it is
apparently also a tribute to the first faculty sponsor of our group, one
Charles Dunn by name.

--Fiammetta Adalieta di Damiano Leo


From:_Ioseph of Locksley
To: All
Subject: names
Date: 24 May 91 

Well, since we are telling tales about the naming of SCA branches.... 
 
We were almost called the "Kingdom of the South" but that was shouted ìdown (literally) in favor of "Atenveldt." 
 
"Atenveldt" is a semi-coined name that combines the Egyptian Aton (for 
the Sun) with Veldt for "world, or land." The Principality of the Sun is, of course, based on that......SunDragon was an inspired moment of insanity...the Founding Baroness, Alys Carvelsdottir (now in Ansteorra) lived in Goodyear, AZ....and saw the Goodyear Blimp one day, and..... A DRAGON! Dragons are a protected species in this Barony, incidentally. 
 
Ered Sul is from Tolkien, and was named after the Hopi's sacred mountain beneath which Flagstaff AZ lies. 
 
Wealhnutu? Well, a Certain Irreverent Cossack once said that the word was Navajo for "two fat broads on a hill..." 
 
Twin Moons (Mesa/Tempe AZ)......I will -not- speculate! 
 
I disremember the translation for Tyr Ysgithr (Tucson, AZ), but I seem to  remember it has something to do with boars......Welsh, you know...... 
 
Loch Sallan is, of course, the Great Salt Lake of Utah. 


From: Thorfinn Halfblind
Subject: Branch Names
Date:_24 May 91

In Oertha the names come out like this:
 
Oertha -- Welsh for ``The Cold Lands'' or ``The Land''.
 
Eskalya -- An anagram/phonetic spelling of the old Tlingit/Aleut name ìfor Alaska.  Means ``The Great Land''.
 
Winter's Gate -- The northernmost group in existance in the SCA.  Border stretches from Hurricane Gulch in the Alaska Range, up to the North Pole, and from the Canadian Border to the last quarter inch of sand visible on the easternmost edge of Big Diomede Island in the USSR. 
 We HAVE claimed right of conquest over the entire USSR -- and hope to hold the first East/West war in a generation midway between Oertha and Drachenwald.
 
Earngyld -- (Formerly Shire of a Thousand Isles)  Strong Viking tradition in the fjords of Southeast Alaska -- plus it's at the state capital. 
 This, plus the myriad attendant shires is a subgroup called the Alexander Archipelago.
 
Castle Hill -- One of the most prominent features of Sitka as you come in from the coast is an Old Russian cathedral -- which looks like a castle.
 
Selveirgaard -- Don't rightly know.  Possibly meaning ``Silver Guard''
 
Shire of the Lonely Isle -- Adak Naval Station.  And it is VERY lonely.
(Although never dull!  Waking up to your Quonset hut floating in the 
wind like a kite is *NOT* dull.)
 
Shire of Gateway -- Ketchikan.  The first port of call for the Inland Passage ferry run.  Makes the typical weather in An Tir look like the Gobi.  (One fighter from there was rumoured to have gills)
 
College of St. Boniface -- Several Bonifaces in the _Catalog of Saints_, I think the College is named after the one who died in the snows.
 
Beast Valley -- Named after the abundant wildlife in that part of the Goldstream valley.  Moose, Ducks, Geese and Bears.  And Mosquitos. 
 LOTS of Mosquitos.
 
Iceholde -- The aborted shire started in Barrow.
 
And to any Westerners, ask Duke Radnor to tell the tale about Iklutna some time.  *grin*
 
Thorfinn Halfblind


From: djheydt at garnet.berkeley.edu
Date: 24 May 91 03:58:24 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Nobody (not even My Lord Husband, whom I would've expected to post it
days ago) has yet mentioned the former shire occupying the same
spatial coordinates as San Francisco, California.

It was the Shire of St. Andrew's, and it had on its arms a saltire,
or St. Andrew's Cross, fracted.

St Andrew is English for San Andreas.

The Shire had the motto "Non Est Culpa Nostra" (It's Not Our Fault).

That Shire is now defunct and the current group occupying the same
spatial coordinates is the Shire of Cloondara.  I don't know what
that means.

But the Shire to the north of it, occuping the same spatial coordinates
as Marin County, California, is the Shire of Caldarium (= a large tub
suitable for bathing in).

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                Dorothy J. Heydt
Province of the Mists                   djheydt at garnet.berkeley.edu
Principality of the Mists               University of California,
Kingdom of the West                     Berkeley


From: dolata at lead.uazaic.arizona.edu (Dolata)
Date: 24 May 91 19:08:40 GMT
Organization: University of Arizona AI Chemistry Lab, Tucson, AZ

Dearest Gentles,

        If you will graciously allow me to add one small tidbit to the
discussion on places names;

        The College of St. Felix is embedded in the University of Arizona,
whose mascot/symbol is the Wildcat.  So we took the genus name for a
cat, 'Felus',  and looked to see if there was a St. Felix.  Lo, and behold,
there are 16 period St. Felixes.   Some of my favorites are;

St. Felix the Librarian - who was martyred for not letting Diocletion take a 
book from the library.

St. Felix the Stupid - who was Sainted for the simplicity and purity of his
life.

St. Felix of Carthage - who was driven into the desert to die of thirst (which
is VERY appropriate for Tucson)

St. Felix the anti-pope -  after 1200 years of Sainthood,  they decided they
had gotten it wrong,  and that he was actually a tool of the devil.

St. Felix the administratively lost - who lived about 200 CE,  but of whom
all record sans his Sanctification has been lost by the records office
(next time the beaurocrats lose your records you know who to pray to!)

        Until my next missive, I remain,

Yours in Service,

Thomas Ignatius Perigrinus
Minister of Arts and Sciences
College of St. Felix


From: storm at hlafdig.stonemarche.ORG (Arastorm the Golden)
Date: 24 May 91 15:18:51 GMT
Organization: The Internet

The Barony of Stonemarche chose it's name only a few years ago,
and it was chosen in response to a quest for what we had in common.
Years before the State of New Hampshire had split into several
SCA groups and we thought it would reduce paperwork and generally
be profitable to be one group- but what did all of NH have in 
common?  ROCKS! (Mundanely known as the Granite State)
This has given us a theme for many fun bits of schtic (sp?)
The invected border on the arms originally stood for the stone 
walls that border every road, our awards are called things like 
keystone, millstone, cornerstone, etc. with suggestions running
rampant for kidneystones, and other silliness. Our tradition is to
give each new Crown a rock- composition, size, velocity and trajectory
to be determined as appropriate for each pair. So far the most 
impressive was the 1 "ko" rock we gave Ronald. Of course gifts of
rocks could range from talc to diamond. We are working on a badge
with a basalisk and cockatrice combattant. And I should not neglect
to mention that our dearest enemies, the Weazelurds, refer to our
fair Baroness Stonemarche as Tinhat Pebble-path.
-- 
Arastorm the Golden ("hlafdig" is the Saxon spelling of "lady")
(603)654-2601 or 654-5317  PO Box 43, So.Lyndeboro, NH 03082
  -->storm%hlafdig at hern.stonemarche.org


From: lawbkwn at BUACCA.BITNET (Yaakov HaMizrachi/HJFeld)
Date: 27 May 91 16:19:16 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Naming stories: It has been my unfortunate experience to
be involved with two groups that never completely took off.
The first was at Princeton.  I got involved with the SCA
in my senior year, and they did a demo at Princeton.
This generated enough interest to make it worthwhile
to start a canton.  The name we chose (originally
suggested by Arval) was Carrillion Keep.  As we were
a canton of Carillion, the barony had started at Princeton,
and Princeton looks vaguely fortress-like, it seemed
appropriate.
The other group was in Israel. I met a bunch of gamers
who were very interested in the SCA, so I encouraged them
to try to organize.  The name they wanted was "Shlosh
Dayot" which means three faiths.  The device they wanted
was cruisily, two crescents argent, chiefed azure, a
star of david as the crescents.  (Unfortunately, everyone
was drafted or on reserves which made organization
difficult.)

In Service,
Yaakov


From: jprod at sagepub.COM (Journals Production Department)
Date: 27 May 91 20:09:30 GMT
Organization: Sage Publications, Inc., Newbury Park, CA

  Greetings from Sister Kate.

    I've been greatly enjoying the place name origin stories. The only one I
  can add is Grey Niche (Memphis), which I was told when I joined was named
  that because the events were usually rained on, making things generally
  *Rainish* (in Meridies, niche is pronounced nish). I speculate that it also
  has something to do with Memphis being in a corner, or niche, of Tennessee.

                          Sister Kate

         Journals Production Department, Sage Publications, Inc.
            2111 West Hillcrest Drive, Newbury Park, CA 91320
              voice: (805) 499-0721    fax: (805) 499-0871
                    via Internet: jprod at sagepub.com


From: GEDAV at INDSVAX1.BITNET
Date: 30 May 91 04:37:00 GMT

Greetings to all from Cerdic...

The name of our group, Strikkenwoode, is a comment on the mundane city of
Terre Haute.  We have several beautiful parks, as well as a forest preserve,
but we also have a very foul-smelling industrial park, which tends to kill
off any vegitation around it.

Our more widely known name "The Dirthole" comes from a time in which our
shire fielded more fighters at a Rivenstar baronial fighter practice than
did the Barony of Sternfeld.  At that time, Duke Sir Palymar was prince, and
he noted that "That incipient dirthole has more fighters than our barony!"
The name just sort of stuck...

-Lord Cerdic Blackmoore
-GKMIT in Strikkenwoode,
-Midrealm...


From: chris at %griffon at mcc.oz (Chris Robertson)
Date: 31 May 91 13:22:22 GMT
Organization: Griffon Consulting

Our Barony of Rowany here in Lochac was named after our Baroness,
Viscountess Mistress Rowan Perigrynne, who was not only the
founding Baroness, but was the driving force behind establishing
Lochac in the first place.  (She actually would have liked the
Barony to be called "Maletur"...)

St. Ursula (after whom the Sydney Univ. college is named) organised
a Crusade of virgins -- at some point in history a scholar's copying
mistake turned the modest number of virgins (who were all slaughtered
on the way to the Holy Land) into 10,000 virgins... The traditional
toast at the annual St. Ursula's dinner is to the virgins, counted
by number...

Yseult de Lacy
Rowany Chronicler


From: iborchar at physics.adelaide.edu.au (Lord Khaos)
Date: 2 Jun 91 01:56:04 GMT
Organization: Department of Physics, University of Adelaide, South Australia

The College of Blessed Herman the Cripple obtained it's name from a TI article
on the Saints of Winter.  For some reason, unknown to us, the only name that
consistently stuck in the reader's mind was "Blessed Herman the Cripple".
No one could remember for more than a day the name of any actual saint listed
in the article....   We all bowed to inevitability :-) .

The College of Blessed Herman the Cripple is part of the Barony of Innilgard
of the Principality of Lochac of the Kingdom of the West.

Tako Jiro (Founder of the "Herman for Sainthood" drive)
--
Ian Borchardt                                          And in the next world,
iborchar at physics.adelaide.edu.au        I will kill the foe a thousand times,
Medical Physicist                                                   Laughing,
University of Adelaide/Royal Adelaide Hospital                    Undefeated.


From: Dafydd Ap RhysRick Wallace
Subj: SCA geography and group names. 
Date: 5 Jun 91 

To add to the ongoing history of group names, I believe that the origin of
The Citadel of the Southern Pass should be obvious. I find the name amusing
though; the period name for El Paso ( El Paso did exist n period) was El
Paso del Norte (The Pass of the North.) North, South, kind of depends on
your point of view.  Las Cruces, NM. is known as the Shire of Great River.
The Rio Grande runs through Las Cruces.

                Yours in Service
                        Dafydd ap Rhys


From: Fum at coyote.cs.wmich.EDU
Date: 8 Jun 91 22:31:27 GMT

The Canton of the Three Hills was named for three Hills in Kalamazoo, MI.  The first hill is the hill upon which Kalamazoo College,
the birthplace of the canton, stands.  The second hill is that upon which
the main campus of Western Michigan University is found.  The third
Hill is that which holds the landmark tower which belongs to the
Kalamazoo Regional Psyciatric Hospital.  We believe that in our old
age we all will go to the Third Hill.  Our Patron Saint BTW is Saint Madeline, Our Lady Who Lives Above Us (a truely local legend)

The Barony of Andelcrag got its name through a vote when the Barony
was founded by splitting off from Northwoods.  The name did indeed
Come from PRINCE VALIENT where it was the last fortress to fall to
the huns.  The remaining defenders, mostly women, burned themselves
along with the tower rather than surrender.  When the Heralds didn't 
want us to use the name we began to call ourselves the Backwards Barony of
Garcledna (spell it backwards!), a name which we still use for our
nearly annual Pirate Event.  We also began to use as many alternate
spellings as possible.  Eventually the Heralds tired of us and let us
Use Andelcrag.  Fron Three Hills in the outh to The Northern Highlands
the baron consists of a 9-10 hour drive with groups up the
coast of the lower penninsula of michigan and in the Upper Penninsula at Houghton/Hancock.
Though not heavily Populated it is a large Barony indeed.

The canton of Rimshold (sorry, Rimsholt) was named from its place once long ago upon the northern rim of Andelcrag.  Now it is in
the center of the Barony.  (some habe, in jest, called it Rim-shot)

Ritter Baron Karl Aerdigwidder von Zauberberg
Baron von Andelcrag
Canton of the Three Hills
Barony of Andelcrag, Middle Kingdom


From: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Date: 5 Aug 91 16:32:12 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research

Michael the Bard asks:

> Where did the name An-tir come from, and what does it mean.  

It is Irish, and means "The Land."

And, while we're at it:

West: obvious
East: obvious.  
Middle: obvious.  Some of the Midrealm's armory relates to it's "persona"
  as "The Middle Kingdom", i.e., China.
Atenveldt: Aten = Egyptian sun god.  Veldt = Dutch/Afrikaans for
  "grassland, plain". 
Meridies: Latin, "south".
Caid: Acronym of the four original baronies, Calafia, Angels, Isles,
  Dreibergen.  Also said to be the Arabic word for "fortress." 
Ansteorra: Old English, "One Star" (Texas, of course)
Calontir: Welsh (or is it Irish?), "heart land".
Atlantia: Reference to the Atlantic Ocean.
An Tir: Irish, "the land"
Trimaris: Latin "three seas."
Outlands: obvious
===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur, Brigantia Principal Herald              Josh Mittleman
...but only for another 4 months, 4 weeks, and 2 days    50 Croton Ave. 1F
mittle at watson.ibm.com or joshua at paul.rutgers.edu         Ossining, NY 10562


From: duncan at rti.rti.org (Stephen Duncan)
Date: 21 Oct 91 18:49:44 GMT
Organization: Research Triangle Institute, RTP, NC

 (cerebrum meum dolet) writes:
>Jeremy de Merstone greets the folk of the Rialto and responds to this
>from Brand the Black:
>
>(B) "Ealdormere" is better translated as "life-lake", or "noble-lake" or
>    "lord-lake".
> 
> Jeremy de Merstone       George J Perkins    perkins at msupa.pa.msu.edu

Part of any translation is to get across a proper feeling for the
term as well its meaning.  Perhaps instead of life-lake, we should 
consider life-water, finally arriving at water-of-life: Aqua Vitae.
The Irish word for this comes into English as "whisky".

Steve Duncan
duncan at rti.rti.org


From: perkins at msupa.pa.msu.EDU (cerebrum meum dolet)
Date: 20 Oct 91 03:43:28 GMT

Jeremy de Merstone greets the folk of the Rialto and responds to this
from Brand the Black:

> Well, for latinizing Ealdormere, I was either thinking of something like
> Ealdormerus (bad latin, I know, but I'm just a herald...), or getting the
> latin for Old Waters (which is what Ealdormere means).

This seems to be a response to something earlier, but as I, too, have been
plagued recently by missing Digests,  I don't recognize it;  its substance,
though,  is plain enough,  so I will comment.

(A) "Ealdormere" is reasonable medieval Latin as it stands -- decline it as
    you would "mare"; there are analogous usages in the _Revised_Medieval_
    Latin_Word-List_from_British_and_Irish_Sources_ (ed. R. E. Latham, 1989
    printing, with Supplement; London, Oxford University Press) -- "mere"
    is a variant of "mare" (sea, lake, marsh), especially in placenames
    (found in places in the Domesday Book); it is also found as "mara",
    "marum" or "maria" [p. 290], so those endings might be chosen, also.
    The Anglo-Saxon "ealdorman(n)"=="Earl, nobleman, leader" is found in
    11th and 12th C. texts as "ealdormannus", "aldormannus", "aldermannus"
    and "aldremannus". [pp. 13 & 160]
    It's by no means Classical Latin, but we're not in the SCA to emulate
    Imperial Rome.

(B) "Ealdormere" is better translated as "life-lake", or "noble-lake" or
    "lord-lake".  "Old" is "eald";  "ealdor" means "life" (as a neuter
    noun) or "chief, prince, lord" (as a masculine noun), and compound
    words, such as "ealdor-bealu"=="mortal injury", "ealdor-dagas"==days
    of one's life", "ealdor-gewinna"=="mortal enemy", "ealdor-leas"==
    "lacking a lord",  etc., all reflect one of these meanings; granted,
    they are *related* to "eald"=="old", but do have independent existence.
    [p. 7 of _Word-Hoard_:_An_Introduction_to_Old_English_Vocabulary_ by
    Stephen A. Barney, New Haven & London, Yale University Press, 1977;
    pp. 319-320 & 373 of the 3rd Edition of Fr. Klaeber's edition of
    _Beowulf_, Lexington, MA,  D. C. Heath & Company, 1950; and
    pp. 321-322 & 358 of the 15th Edition of _Sweet's_Anglo-Saxon_Reader_,
    revised by Dorothy Whitelock, Oxford University Press, 1967]
    So, a classical Latin translation would be something like "Lacus
    Vitalis" or "Lacus Vividus" for the "giving life, lively" connotation,
    or "Lacus Nobilis", "Lacus Principalis" or "Lacus Gentilis" for the
    "chief, lord" meaning.  I think I like "Ealdormere" or "Ealdormare"
    better -- it feels more medieval (just use the right endings).
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
 Jeremy de Merstone       George J Perkins    perkins at msupa.pa.msu.edu
 North Woods, MidRealm    East Lansing, MI    perkins at msupa (Bitnet)
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------


From: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Date: 18 Nov 91 19:31:09 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research

Greetings from Arval!   jester at gacvx1.gac.edu asks for advice and
assistance on choosing a name from a new branch.

The best single piece of advice I can give you is to choose a place name,
i.e., something that looks like the name of a real place.  Too many SCA
branches have saddled themselves with names that have nothing to do with
reality, modern or historical.  SCA place names should be formed in manner
of medieval place names.  Nearly all place names, in all languages, contain
a geographic term (town, hill, vale, chester, etc.), with some kind of
modifying element.  Master Steffan's classic example is this: In the SCA,
we might have a Shire of the Swimming Pigs.  In the Middle Ages, they would
have had Swinefordshire.  Which sounds better?

If your group is located in the vicinity of a windy hill, then "Windhill"
would be a perfectly fine place name.  Since it lies on a hill overlooking
a river, you might call it "Riverhill".  Remember that once you choose the
group name, you are probably never going to change it.  Something fanciful
and fantastical that appeals to you now may become rather annoying after a
few years, when you decide that you'd really prefer a name that fits into
the medieval atmosphere better - I've seen it happen many times.  Best to
start with something that is more medieval, and perhaps a little less
imaginative, and know that the group will always be happy with it, come
what may.

Choosing a name in Gaelic, or some other difficult language, is perfectly
reasonable, but you should be aware that no one is going to be able to
pronounce it, and the group will forever have to deal with that problem.
If a group has a wide range of personae, then I generally recommend
sticking with something easy to remember, understand, and pronounce:
English. 

Whatever language you choose, the first step is to look at medieval maps or
histories, and see how place names were constructed there in the Middle
Ages.  Build your name to fit one of the patterns you find.

SCA place names last a long time, and get used by many people.  It's worth
a little extra effort to ensure that they are reasonably authentic.

If you have any specific questions, please do not hesitate to contact me
directly. 

        Arval.
===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur, Brigantia Principal Herald              Josh Mittleman
...but only for another 1 month, 2 weeks, and 3 days     156 Grand St.
mittle at watson.ibm.com                                    Croton, NY 10520


From: Elwyn Halfmoon
Subj: SCA Geography Source?
Date: 27 Nov 91 

 > From: andrew at bransle.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew Draskoy)
 > Date: 25 Nov 91 21:10:23 GMT
 > Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
 > -- Sandorfia Miklos, Ar n-Eilean-ne, East

 > Ansteorra (TX and OK)
 >     Barony of Namron (Norman, OK)
 >     Barony of the Steppes (Dallas, TX)
 >     Barony of Stargate (Houston, TX)
 >     Shire of Shadowlands (College Station, TX)
 >     Shire of Bjornsborg (San Antonio, TX)

SHIRE of Bjornsborg?!?!?!?!?!!!!!!!!  We've been a barony for at least a decade, or so I've heard.


Order of Creation of the Baronies

Stargate
Steppes
Bjornsborg
Bordermarch
Bryn Gwlad
Namron
Eldern Hills
Raven's Fort
Elfsea
Wiesenfeurer
Loch Soilleir

I would have replied via netmail except for your reference to Bjornsborg as a barony.  :P

Elwyn Halfmoon
BARONY of Bjornsborg, Ansteorra


Date: 22 Jan 92 
From: hwt at bwdlh490.BNR.CA (Henry Troup)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.

Elder-mere.  Stress is equal on the first two syllables. The odd
spelling and pronunciation Eld-owe-mere (Eldomere) is a bizarre and
incorrect mutation, IMHO.

For three trivia points: what were the three names on the ballot?
(Ealdormere, Loganmor, and something I can't remember) 

The argument against Loganmor (big lake) was that the collective form
would be Loganmorons... 

Ealdormere means old lake, and derives from the same anglosaxon (OE)
word that gave us alderman.

Henry Troup - HWT at BNR.CA (Canada) -


Subj: Kingdom Names
Date: 2 Feb 92 
From: samlb at optilink.UUCP (Sam Bassett)

	The names "West", "East", "Middle", and "Atenveldt" all predate
me (A.S. IV/V) -- they were that way when I joined the Society.
	There was still some use of the term "Kingdom of the Mists" in
at least A.S. VI, but the formal title was "Kingdom of the West".

	"Atenveldt" -- thereon hangs a silly rumor (of course).  The
Phoenix, AZ area is mundanely known as the Valley of the Sun, so someone
(Ioseph probably had a finger in this) came up with "Aten" for the
Egyptian Sun god, and "veldt" -- the Dutch/Africaans word for dry prarie
(I told you it was silly, didn't I?), and soldered them together to come
up with Atenveldt -- which didn't sound too bad, even when new.
-- 
Sam'l Bassett -- System Administrator 	      (among other silly things)
Work: DSC/Optilink, 1310-C Redwood Wy, Petaluma CA 94954; 1-707-792-7253
Home: 7 Gothic Court, Novato  CA  94947;		  1-415-897-7424
UUCP: uunet!optilink!samlb;		   Internet: samlb at well.sf.ca.us


Date: 5 Feb 92 
From: mdewis at pieman.compserv.utas.edu.au (Mark Richard Dewis)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Greetings from sunny Lochac! 

Bertram, on the subject of the origin of group names, Lochac (pronounced
LOCK-ark) is taken from one of the names Marco Polo was given for the 
mythical great southern land (i.e. Australia). 

-- Richard of Dunheved, Ynys Fawr Shire, Lochac. 
mdewis at pieman.compserv.utas.edu.au ... but you can call me Richard.


Date: 10 Feb 92 
From: 100033.604 at compuserve.COM (Bruce Probst)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Internet

Lochac: pronounced "Lock-ark"  (NOT, repeat NOT, "Low-chak" or 
	"Low-shak"!!)

The name of course comes from the writings of Marco Polo, who gave it
as the name of the southern continent that he had been told about in
his Asian travels.

I'm afraid I have no idea who chose the name originally, although if
forced to guess I'd be willing to bet it was either Rowan Perigrynne or
Hrolf Herjolfssen.

Decion ap Dyfrwr Trefriw
Barony of Stormhold
Principality of Lochac


Subj: Security Clearence Vs SCA Membership
Date: 24 Feb 92 
From: habura at vccsouth17.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY

One piece of evidence on the SCA-membership-isn't-a-problem side: one of the 
Shires in the East is called Freelords of the Stone Keep...it's based at the
US Army Military Academy at West Point.(You can always tell the Freelord 
people: they're the guys at an event with Very Short Hair.) I rather think that
if the SCA were considered subversive, the Shire there wouldn't be permitted.

Alison MacDermot


From: doconnor at sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA Geography
Date: 30 Apr 93 10:32:51
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture

David Schroeder <ds4p+ at andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
]    Q: What are the meanings of the non-obvious kingdom names?
]    A: Ansteorra   -- "one star/lone star (sort of)"
]       An Tir      -- "the land" 
]       Calontir    -- "heartlands"
]       Meridies    -- "south"
]       Trimaris    -- "three seas"  (Gulf of Mexico, Caribbean, Atlantic)
]       Drachenwald -- "dragon wood"
]       Caid        --  acronym for Calafia, Angels, Isles, & Dreiburgen
]		       their first 4 baronies...  also Arabic? for fortress
]
]       Oertha      -- "north"
]       Ealdormere  -- "old lakes"
]       AEthelmearc -- "noble border"

	Atenveldt   -- "land of the sun" or "land of the sun god", approximately
--
Dennis O'Connor			doconnor at sedona.intel.com


From: BKFLYNN at email.unc.edu (Brian Flynn)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Amusing Arms
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 1994 08:21:13
Organization: University of North Carolina

In article <B82zGDA.mann49 at delphi.com> David Mann <mann49 at delphi.com> writes:
>>Why not use this as a starting point for a thread on arms that have
>>interesting second meanings, both SCA and medieval?

{humorous Swamp Castle story removed}

My barony of WINDMASTER's HILL, Atlantia was orginally eastern NC, the site of 
the Wright brother's first flight.  For those who might be history-impaired, 
the hill/sand dune where this took place is Kitty Hawk.  Surprisingly enough, 
the device of the barony is a winged domestic cat - a cross between a kitty 
and a hawk....

But then, that was in early AS something or another (9? 10?), when you could 
easily get away with that sort of thing.

Uther


From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Names of Kingdoms?
Date: 26 Aug 1996 19:17:06 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

> I'm looking for the stories behind the names of the various Kingdoms of
> the Known World.

Here's how I know them.  Corrections and missing details are welcome.

West: obvious

East: obvious, too.  But to add spice, observe that the badge of the East,
      "A tyger passant azure", was chosen because the tyger is a symbol of
      good luck in Japan (Far East) and blue is a color associated with
      good luck in the Middle East

Middle: obvious.  Note that China was also called "the Middle Kingdom".
      This was the motivation for the dragon in their arms.

Atenveldt: Aten is an (Egyptian?) god of the sun.  "veldt" is the Afrikaans
      word for an arid grassland.  This name has the distinction of being
      the only one derived from a language that did not even exist in our
      period! 

Meridies: Latin, "south".  Apt for a kingdom in the Deep South.

Caid: An acronym if the names of the four founding baronies: Calafia,
      Angles, Isles, Dreiburgen. Supposedly also an Arabic word meaning
      "fortress".  The crescents and the bordure embattled in their arms
      refer to this derivation. 

Ansteorra: Old English "One Star".  Reference to the "Lone Star State".

Atlantia: A play on the word "Atlantic".  The kingdom is primary the
      central Atlantic states.

An Tir: Welsh, "the land".

Calontir: Welsh, "heartland".  The kingdom is in the middle of the US.

Trimaris: Latin "three seas".  Florida is bounded by the Atlantic, the
      Caribbean, and the Gulf of Mexico.

Outlands: obvious, but if there is a particular story behind it, I don't
      know it.  The principality was once called "Utanwayard", which I was
      once told is Old English for "Outlands".  Anyone know for sure?

Drachenwald: German "dragon wood".  I don't know why they chose this.  The
      area was once called "Thairis", but I don't know why.


And for good measure, the principalities:

AEthelmearc: Old English, "noble border".  The area was previously known as
      the Western Marches.

Artemisia: A reference to the goddess Artemis.  I don't know why they chose it.  

Avacal: I haven't a clue.

Cynagua: A pun on Spanish for "without water".  The principality is in
    California's Central Valley, which is a desert.

Ealdormere: I think this is Old English "ancient sea/lake", probably
    referring to the Great Lakes on their border.

Lochac: A late-period map shows an island with this name in the general
    area of Australia.

Mists: Obvious to anyone who has seen Bay Area fog.

Nordmark: Swedish (or any of several other related languages) "northern
    march".  

Northshield: It is in the northern part of the Midrealm.  I don't know why
    "shield"; maybe the landmass is roughly escutcheon-shaped.

Oertha: I used to know this one, but I've forgotten.

Summits: Southern Oregon has lots of mountains.

Sun: Climate.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord                                         mittle at panix.com


From: Patsy Dunham <Patsy.R.Dunham at CI.Eugene.OR.US>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Names of Kingdoms?
Date: 26 Aug 1996 23:26:27 GMT
Organization: City of Eugene, Eugene OR USA

Outlands and "Utanwayard"  -- I lived there for a year in '76; what I was 
told then was that the national heralds were objecting to "Outlands" 
(why??) and the "U" spelling was a fudge till they could either be 
convinced otherwise or the personnel changed...  I saw it in newsletter 
copy during that period, numerous times, as often saw it written out "Utanwayard, pronounced 'Outlands'"

Chimene


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Names of Kingdoms?
Date: 27 Aug 1996 00:18:12 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley

In article <4vtb9i$ll4 at panix.com>, Arval d'Espas Nord <mittle at panix.com> wrote:

>Meridies: Latin, "south".  Apt for a kingdom in the Deep South.

The primary meaning is "mid-day"; "south" is given as the second
meaning in my Lewis and Short.

>An Tir: Welsh, "the land".

Is it Welsh or Irish?  I had thought, the latter.

>Outlands: obvious, but if there is a particular story behind it, I don't
>      know it.  The principality was once called "Utanwayard", which I was
>      once told is Old English for "Outlands".  Anyone know for sure?

OK, I can fill in on this one.  Way back when the region wasn't
even a principality yet, the inhabitants chose the name "Outlands"
and the then Laurel Queen of Arms, Karina of the Far West, nixed
it: there's a novel by Lewis Carroll called _Sylvie and Bruno_ in
which "Outland" is the fantasy world as "England" is the world of
reality, and Karina vetoed it on the there-already-is-one-in-the-
fantasy-literature rule.  The Outlanders kept complaining and
complaining, and Karina kept vetoing and vetoing, and so they
picked "Utanwayard" pro tempore, and changed it to "Outlands"
shortly after Karina stepped down as Laurel.

>Artemisia: A reference to the goddess Artemis.  I don't know why they chose it.  
But artemisia is also an herb, the one called woodruff in English
and Waldmeister in German; it's used to flavor May wine.  Whether
that has anything to do with it....

>Northshield: It is in the northern part of the Midrealm.  I don't know why
>    "shield"; maybe the landmass is roughly escutcheon-shaped.

Isn't it located on that ancient land-mass, the oldest part of North
America, known as the Laurentian Shield?

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West                        UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable           djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu
PRO DEO ET REGE


From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Names of Kingdoms?
Date: 27 Aug 1996 01:32:58 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Arval d'Espas Nord (mittle at panix.com) wrote:

: > I'm looking for the stories behind the names of the various Kingdoms of
: > the Known World.

: Here's how I know them.  Corrections and missing details are welcome.

: An Tir: Welsh, "the land".

Irish. While "tir" is identical in both languages, "an" is the Irish
masculine singular definite article. In Welsh, the same phrase would be "Y
Tir".

: Calontir: Welsh, "heartland".  The kingdom is in the middle of the US.

Unfortunately, if this is the intended meaning (of which I have no doubt)
the name contains a significant error. When the modifier is place first in
a Welsh compound, the second element is lenited: Calondir. As it stands,
the element "tir" must be read as modifying the element "calon", producing
a meaning along the lines of "heart (composed) of earth".

: Artemisia: A reference to the goddess Artemis.  I don't know why they
chose it.  

"Artemisia" is the genus name of sagebrush.

: Oertha: I used to know this one, but I've forgotten.

I believe it is a variant spelling (or possibly misreading) of Anglo-Saxon
"eorthe" (earth).

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn


From: Tyler Rosenquist <alphafem at cyberhighway.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Names of Kingdoms?
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 20:58:31 -0600
Organization: CyberHighway Internet Services

About the Principality of Artemesia:

Arval d'Espas Nord wrote:

> Artemisia: A reference to the goddess Artemis.  I don't know why they chose it.

Sorry, but I have it on excellent authority that when searching for a 
name, they tried to find one indigenous lifeform that existed in Idaho, 
Utah, Montana, Wyoming, and Colorado.  The most obvious one was the 
tumbleweed whose latin name includes the word "Artemesia."  Not very 
glamorous, I admit, but that's the story.

Lady Tireachan


From: Terry Marr <1.marr at postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
To: Mark S. Harris
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 12:05:21 -0700
Subject: Re: Names of Kingdoms?

> I have a file placenames-msg (about 81K bytes) that has many messages on
> the origins and meanings of most kingdoms and many local groups and
> principalities. 
> 
> Stefan li Rous

Would be interested in seeing this file.  BTW, if you don't have it 
already:  
    Barren Sands, East--Includes a portion of the New Jersey Pine Barrens 
and is a very coastal region.
    Iron Bog, East--Includes a large portion of the bog iron mining area 
of New Jersey.

Terence the Arcane


From: alysk at ix.netcom.com(Elise Fleming )
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Names of Kingdoms? (Cynagua)
Date: 28 Aug 1996 21:24:29 GMT
Organization: Netcom

In <4vv860$ceu at csu-b.csuohio.edu> scott at math.csuohio.edu (Brian M.
Scott) writes: 

>>>Arval d'Espas Nord wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>>> Cynagua: A pun on Spanish for "without water".
>
>>>It also means "swan" in...Greek?...though I don't claim that this is
the true etymology.  :-)
>
>The Greek is 'kyknos', the Latin, 'cygnus'; the OED derives the latter
>(through an intermediate form) from the Greek.  There's a certain 
>superficial similarity to 'Cynagua', but that seems to be all.

The quotes are getting confusing but the arms of Cynagua have a swan;
ergo, the obvious meaning would refer back to "swan".  If one only
listens to the name, rather than looking at it, it does sound like "sin
agua" (pronounced "seen", not "sin").

Alys Katharine


From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Names of Kingdoms? (Cynagua)
Date: 29 Aug 1996 12:06:27 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

Greetings from Arval!

It does seem likely that the people who chose the name "Cynagua" _thought_
that it referred to a swan.  But we can't figure out why they thought that,
since the Latin word for swan is "cygnus" not "cynagus".  

So there are two questions: Are we missing something?  Can we get in touch
with any of the people who picked the name originally?
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord                                         mittle at panix.com


From: ez010263 at ucdavis.edu (Kate was here)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Names of Kingdoms? (Cynagua)
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 05:03:40 GMT
Organization: UCD

>I wrote (in response to the suggestion that 'Cynagua' might be 
>'swan' in Greek):
>>>The Greek is 'kyknos', the Latin, 'cygnus'; the OED derives the latter
>>>(through an intermediate form) from the Greek.  There's a certain 
>>>superficial similarity to 'Cynagua', but that seems to be all.  >>Alys:
>>The quotes are getting confusing but the arms of Cynagua have a swan;
>>ergo, the obvious meaning would refer back to "swan".
>Except that the name appears to have nothing to do with swans.  Perhaps 
>this is instead a good period-style cant

That is exactly the case.  The roots of the name and the intent of the
founders of the principality (I just called up a couple of them) comes
from both Latin and Spanish for "no water,"  i.e. sine aqua (latin) or
cine agua (spanish - apologies if I splooged the spellings)).  The black
swan arms are a deliberate cant.

If you live around here (ie, in Cynagua) you'd know that the principality
is a place of extremes in weather as regards water.  The summer here
in the Sacramento and San Juaquin valleys is hot-hot-hot and dry-dry-dry;
the weather over the pass in Silver Desert (Reno) is similar.  When
it rains or snows, however, flood conditions are normal in both the
Sierra Nevada and in the valleys.  There are more flood control dams
and diversions here in California than anywhere else in the world.  For
a place that's this dry most of the time, flooding is a real threat. I 
suspect it's for these reasons that the now long-forgetten theme song 
of Cynagua is "The Swamps of Home" from Once Upon A Mattress.

Sources: Duchess Letecia de Scotia, Viscount Alfric Favnesbane
ttfn, Twcs


From: sclark at chass.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Names of Kingdoms?
Date: 3 Sep 1996 16:16:37 -0400
Organization: University of Toronto -- EPAS

Greetings!

Coryn said,
>puh-lease.  It may be known as the Northern Shield down south, but to
>Canadians it's the _Canadian_ Shield (or sometimes the Cambrian
>Shield).

I grew up in Ohio, and never heard it referred to as _anything_ but the
Canadian Shield in speech or geology books alike.

I think Northshield is not only a reference to the Canadian Shield, but
also to that Principality's position as the "shield" of the Midrealm
against invaders from the North (moose?  Polar bears?  Russians?).

Cheers!
Nicolaa de Bracton
sclark at chass.utoronto.ca


From: sandradodd at aol.com (SandraDodd)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Origin of "Oertha," channeled
Date: 9 Sep 1996 16:07:58 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)

Subj:   Re: Names of Kingdoms
Date:   Mon, Sep 9, 1996 2:50 PM EDT
From:  ftamy at aurora.alaska.edu
To: sandradodd at aol.com

Unto Mistress Alflaed of Duckford
greetings from
Mistress Annora de Montfort of Shadowood in the Principality of Oertha.

My Lady,
It has been a long time since I was a newbie in Eskalya taking on the post
of seneschale and writing to you for advice. Much has happened since then,
including the ability to communicate with the rest of the SCA world via
e-mail.

I happened to be browsing the Rialto,(a new ability for me) and saw the
piece of the thread talking about place names. I wanted to pass on the
correct story of the naming of Oertha, but as I am not a subscriber to the
list (just thru my university) I thought I would pass it on to you.

In the early days, (1979) Alaska had two groups, Eskalya and Winter's
Gate.We were part of the Principality of Antir. When Antir petitioned for
kingdom status, Alaska asked to remain part of the West. That wish was
granted. We were then termed the Northern Marches. As we got closer to
principality status, the groups started thinking of a name for the whole
unit;the North being the odds on favorite. However, the heralds vetoed the
North and we went back to the drawing board. Enter Sir Kylson Skyfire. He
was returning by airplane from somewhere Outside, and was reading the
airline magazine. He says one of the articles talked about northern lands
and the word oertha. According to the article, oertha meant "guardian of
the North". He presented the name to the Council of the North and to the
populace where it was approved. Now comes the odd part.We never actually
had a copy of the magazine or the article. The language may be celtic...we
know it isn't Yupik or Inupiaq eskimo, but we're not sure anymore. There
is a welsh word for north or northern that sounds like it, but...

So, for the purposes of myth and legend, Oertha means Guardian of the
North.


From: TalyaDkwtr at aol.com
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 02:11:42 -0500
To: markh at risc.sps.mot.com
Subject: The naming of twin moons

After getting your last message I went and talked to the authority of the
name of Twin Moons His Highness Sir Sterling Shaun Leopard, and what I was
given for an answer was that it was the name that was voted upon by the
founders..(what was eluded to is another story all together) I have been in
the Barony for 3 years now and have never gotten the whole story but I do
know it has to do with the "Moon Patrol" at Estrella War (If I remember
correctly, it was Estrella) if I find out anything else I will e mail you and
let you know

Lady Talya of Darkwater 
Member of House Three Needles  


From: dlblanc at earthlink.net (Donald L. Blanchard)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Collecting Scadian Folklore
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:54:20 GMT

On 8 Mar 1997 18:31:02 GMT, bekka1 at ix.netcom.com(rebecca fildes) wrote:
>Good gentiles! I politely request your help, on something that may
>sound odd to you.
> 
>I am (and have been for quite a while) trying to collect Scadian
>folklore and folksong (or should that be 'filksong').

Most gentle Lady:

<snip of the origins of the Barony of Caerthe - see Outl-hist-msg>

Thus was it left for Judith to recruit an entirely new membership for the
Barony, which she found primarily within the membership of DASFA (the SF group).
Now, it happens that there was one girl who was a member of DASFA who was also a
member (albeit a peripheral one) of the High School Medieval Club; it was she
from whom I first heard this tale.  Regrettably, she was not present at the
meeting in which the Barony's name was chosen, nor when its device was created,
and thus has no knowledge of the meaning or derivation of the name "Caerthe."
(It is widely believed that the name derives in part from the Welsh word 'caer,'
taken to mean a stone fortress -- and that the Chief embattled of the Barony's
device represents the battlements to be found on such an edifice, but this is
and forever shall remain pure speculation.)

Thus the true origins of the Barony of Caerthe and the meaning of its name are
genuinely lost in antiquity; it is my honest and humble belief that no person in
the Known World knows more than I have here related.

Written by my hand on this the Eleventh day of March in the year XXXI of the
Society.
__
Louis leBlanc, O.L.      |  Donald L. Blanchard
Barony of Caerthe        |  dlblanc at earthlink.net
Kingdom of the Outlands  |  Denver, Colorado, USA


To: mark_harris at risc.sps.mot.com
From: rengraph at ix.netcom.com
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 21:07:08 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: newsletter's request

>PS: Where exactly is the region of Gleann Abhann? What is the
>meaning of the name?

Gleann Abhann is the Western Region of Meridies, and includes the States of 
Louisiana, Mississippi, Arkansas and a small portion of Tennessee (the 
Barony of Grey Niche in Memphis)

Gleann Abhann is gaelic for River valley and since the Mississippi River 
biscets our fair land I suppose it is accurate.

We have been a region for about 2 1/2 years now and have aspirations of 
ascension to Principality soon (or as soon as our own buracracy moves).

Constanza


From: joelight at lx.net (joelight)
To: <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>
Subject: Re: ANST - group names
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:21:37 -0500

After various and sundry Celtic type disasters, we decided on Blacklake for
the obvious stuff under our feet.

Ulrica


From: larkin at webstar.net (Lord Larkin O'Kane)
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
Subject: Re: ANST - group names
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 04:54:57 GMT
Organization: Trelac, Ansteorra

On Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:21:37 -0500, joelight at lx.net (joelight) wrote:

>After various and sundry Celtic type disasters, we decided on Blacklake for
>the obvious stuff under our feet.
>Ulrica

Gee, and I thought our water supply was bad. . . at least it isn't
black (yet).  Oh!  You mean oil. . . .

Trelac's name is nothing misterious. We are a region that has three
lakes; Nasworthy, Twin Buttes, and O.C. Fisher.

Larkin


From: "Martin, Brian" <bmartin at origin.ea.com>
To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'"
Subject: RE: ANST - group names
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:17:06 -0500

I'm certain that Stephan already knows this, but it may interest/amuse 
others. As Austin is in the Texas hill country the good folks who 
named our fair barony, (then a shire), decided upon a name that 
reflected the local geography. So these folks found the Welsh words 
for "hill" and "country";
Bryn Gwlad. However, that's not exactly how Welsh works. Therefore, 
rather than being "Hill Country", our barony's name translates to 
"Nation of the Unspecified Hill". Oh well...  :)

Pendaran, soon to be the Baron of the Nation of the Unspecified Hill.


Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:13:29 -0500
From: "V. Allan Endel" <endel at tarleton.edu>
Subject: Re: ANST - group names
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

Stephenville is in an area with few prominent geographic features. However
about 35 miles away is the Comanche Peak Nuclear Power Plant, hence the name
Dragonsfire Tor.

Alan


Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:22:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Mike C. Baker" <kihe at rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: ANST - group names
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

Mooneschadow (or whatever the current official spelynge may be) was
founded by college students who only briefly considered -- and
rejected rapidly -- SCA College status. However, we still wanted to
acknowledge the primary "trade" being plied by the core membership. 
The name Moonshadow associated ultimately with the habits of students
& rogues, who spend so much of their most useful efforts toiling in
the shadows cast by the moon.

The original, longform, name also included the descriptor "Land of the
Crying Winds".  Anyone who has visited the rolling plains of northern
Ansteorra upon a January day and heard the wind "singing" through the
fences should be able to figure out *that* part...
===
Pax ... Kihe / Adieu -- Amra / TTFN -- Mike
Kihe Blackeagle / Amr ibn Majid al-Bakri al-Amra /
Mike C. Baker       F.O.B. (Friend Of Blackfox)


Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:24:37 -0700
From: "Donald C. Walker" <"walkerd at hub.ofthe.net" at hub.ofthe.net>
Organization: Walker Security
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
Subject: Re: ANST - group names

Mark Harris wrote:
> 
> Alastair Aylward declared:
> >  I am a founding member of Bonwicke and can
> >remember when there were only a couple of folk and we were still
> >discussing what we should call the incipient shiree.... Bonwicke=Good
> >Meeting Place
> 
> So, how did you come up with the name Bonwicke? What language is it
> from? What is it supposed to mean?
 
> Stefan li Rous

Bonwicke is a very early English name. Bon (possibly Norman french)
meaning good and wicke OE meaning place. Check a map of England and you
can find any number of ...wicke(s).
           
                             Garth 
   Founding member of Bonwicke still in residence


Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:02:49 -0500
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
From: Burke McCrory <bmccrory at mercury.oktax.state.ok.us>
Subject: Re: ANST - group names

AS I sit here musing over the past I think the following snipits are correct.

Namron = is located in Norman, Oklahoma 
Wastlelands = if you have ever visited northwest Oklahoma you would
understand.
Eldern Hills = The Washita Mountains in southwest Oklahoma are the oldest
mountain range in the US.

Sir Burke Kyriell MacDonald
Kingdom of Ansteorra
email:  burkemc at ionet.net


From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>
Subject: RE: ANST - group names
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 22:00:17 -0500

Namron is Norman spelled backwards. 

At the organizational meeting following Medieval Fair in Norman, no one
could come up with a name.  Sir Koris Natterhelm, who had brought a
group from Steppes to participate in the Fair, said call it Namron.
Since everyone was beginning to get a little punch drunk due to the
length of the meeting, it was agreed to, and Namron was born.

Bear


Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:30:33 -0500
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
From: Burke McCrory <bmccrory at mercury.oktax.state.ok.us>
Subject: Re: ANST - group names

Wiesenfeuer's name was formed from two words Wiesen which means meadows or
praire and Feuer which means Fire.  
Wiesenfeuer = Praire Fire 

The original name was Ebenfeuer which translates to Black Fire.

Sir Burke Kyriell MacDonald
Kingdom of Ansteorra
email:  burkemc at ionet.net


Date: Tue, 14 Oct 97 0:17:46 -0500
To: <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>
From: <cward at awd.com> "C Ward, Software Support, x3115"
Subject: ANST - Names of Groups

While we're discussing how various groups got their names, how about 
Bjornsborg?

Bjornsborg is San Antonio, which in Bexar County.  Give "Bexar" its correct 
Spanish pronunciation, and it almost sounds like "bear", which in turn 
gives you the "Bjorn" part of the name. 

 Add the Alamo, a fort, and you have the "-borg" -- Bear's Fort, 
Bjornsborg.

::GUNNORA::


Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:05:33 -0600
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
From: Evelyn Alden <katriana at chanute-ks.com>
Subject: Re: ANST - group names

Well, chiming in from Calontir,

Bois d'Arc - Wood of the Bow.  Name given by French to the Osage Orange,
which grows all around the nine counties of SE Kansas.  Our shire device has
9 pommes of gold(the "oranges") in border and a bow in the middle.

Forgotten Sea - Well, legend has it there was a sea there a loooong time
ago, (like when dinosaurs roamed the earth) but we've all forgotten : )

Standing Stones - There are several (7?, 9?) stone columns on the University
campus in Columbia, MO.  The shire is named for them.

Ivory Keep - I believe this is named after the town of Hannibal, MO
(Hannibal-elephants, get it?)

NoMountain - Grinnell, IA.  There is no mountain there : )

Spinning Winds - Manhattan, KS is in "Tornado Alley"

Three Rivers - There are enough things mundanely named Three Rivers in St.
Louis to make this one obvious

Couer d'Ennui - Heart of Boredom, Des Moines, IA.  The device is a ring of
boar's heads, it was used to be their custom when gathered in a group to
chant "boar ring, boar ring, boar ring,..."

  Katriana op den Dijk
  Shire of Bois d'Arc
  Kingdom of Calontir


Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 22:58:01 +0900
From: Ghislaine Fontaneau/Elayne Hoover <elyh at wcc.net>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
Subject: Re: ANST - group names

Chris and Elisabeth Zakes wrote:
> >  I don't know what "Adlersrhue"
> >actually means.  I grew up there, and no-one ever seemed to know....
> 
> "Adler" is German for "eagle". I *think* "Adlersrhue" means "eagle's nest".
>         -Tivar Moondragon

Oh!!!  That would explain the shire's device.  an eagle.

Ghia
-- 
Madame Ghislaine Fontanneau 
elyh at wcc.net


From: RF <rfleming at tenet.edu>
To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>
Subject: RE: ANST - group names
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:32:43 -0500

In a message dated 97-10-15 07:19:51 EDT, Ghia (?) wrote:
> "Adlersrhue"
>  actually means.  I grew up there, and no-one ever seemed to know....

Amra / Kihe / Mike  Wrote:
>While I may have missed any expansion or correction, I believe you will find 
>that instead of "eagle's nest" that this name translates from German more
>accurately as "eagle's PEACE".  IIRC, isn't there a prominent facility 
>associated or previously associated with promoting strategic (modern) 
>peace [as part of the M.A.D. doctrine] within / very near the boundaries 
>of said place? <gryn>

It was meant to be Eagle's Nest.  

Wilkin
Adlersruhe


From: Baronman at aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 03:50:03 -0400 (EDT)
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
Subject: Re: ANST - group names

In a message dated 97-10-15 00:05:26 EDT  Garth writes:
>> I do believe Stargate was named for its proximity to NASA.
>> 
>> meadhbh
>> 
>  That's what I heard from some of the old, old-timers like Tostig and
>such. However, if my map is correct it seems like the Loch has a better
>claim on the Stargate.

     Yes -this is true- but in the early days, the Stargate Barony was HUGE
and included the NASA district- the Loch was only a itty bitty canton of
Stargate. Loch Sollier is Celtic for Clear Lake, the home and residence of Douvarcue ( I'm not sure of this spelling - help me Aoden), the last of the North American Loch Monsters, sighted only last week by two members of the Loch after consuming a bottle of Glenlivet.

 Baron Bors of Lothian


Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:16:35 -0500
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
From: Chris and Elisabeth Zakes <moondrgn at bga.com>
Subject: Re: ANST - group names

So many groups have interesting names: Coeur d'Ennui in Calontir (French
for heart of boredom), the Mists (named for the fogs in San Francisco), the
Kingdom of Caid (created of the first letters of the then-existing four
baronies, Calafia, Angels, Isles, and Dreiburgen). Bryn Gwlad (my home) was
named by someone opening an English-Welsh dictionary and pulling out words
for "hill" and "country." Unfortunately, he was not fluent (not even close)
in the language, and we ended up being named "land of the unspecified
personified hill." It should have been, if I recall correctly, Bryn Dir.

Aethelyan
Ansteorra


To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
From: RAISYA at aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:58:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: ANST - group names

If you're collecting group names for the Knowne World generally:

Perilous Journey - Berlin, Germany named in the days that getting in and out
of the city WAS a perilous journey.  It was a shire, I'm not sure what it is
these days.

Shire of Roaring Wastes - Detroit, Michigan, and it's pretty self-explanatory.

Shire of Stormvale - Flint, Michigan area, I was told by original members
that it was a humorous compromise after battles over the group's name, etc.

In service,
Raisya Khorivovna


Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:43:20 -0500
From: Paul Mitchell <pmitchel at flash.net>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
Subject: Re: ANST - group names

Galen here!

RAISYA at aol.com wrote:
> If you're collecting group names for the Knowne World generally:
> 
> Perilous Journey - Berlin, Germany named in the days that getting in and out
> of the city WAS a perilous journey.  It was a shire, I'm not sure what it is
> these days.
 
Actually, Perilous Journey went defunct a few years after I left there.

The name came actually from one of Duke Merowald's maps of the Known
World, which showed a shire in the far east of Drachenwald called "Perilous
Journey". I thought it had to be Berlin, but when I got there, there was no shire in Berlin, and Drachenwald had never had a Shire of Perilous Journey.  So I founded the shire in Berlin, using the name from the map; it was the
only SCA branch behind the Iron Curtain.

- Galen of Bristol


Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:40:09 -0500
From: Paul Mitchell <pmitchel at flash.net>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
Subject: Re: ANST - group names

Baronman at aol.com wrote:
<snip>
> If history hasn't changed, I think Baron Aoden once stated that
> the Loch was the only canton to rise to baronial status in the kingdom-
> however this may not still be true.  

Actually, I think Elfsea (which is named for Lake Worth) shares the
distinction of being both barony and former canton.

- Galen of Bristol


From: "Jeanne Stapleton" <jstaplet at adm.law.du.edu>
Organization: Univ. of Denver, College of Law
To: "Mark Harris"
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:52:36 -700 MST
Subject: (Fwd) Re: Group Names

>Francesca

>PS - Apparently the founders of Caer Galen beleived the name (which I
>still think is lovely) meant "Valley of Song".  Turns out a closer
>meaning is "Fortress of Noise".  Strangely appropriate.

I live in Caer Galen.  The name is quite appropriate.  :-)

Berengaria


From: "Jeanne Stapleton" <jstaplet at adm.law.du.edu>
Organization: Univ. of Denver, College of Law
To: "Mark Harris" <mark_harris at quickmail>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:54:05 -700 MST
Subject: Re: ANST - Practical arts and sciences

Stefan:

This is a great one!  Bofharrach (inhabitants known as the 
Boferinghi) sports black and white cowie trappings.  This is
the story of their origins for your files.

Berengaria

Date sent:        Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:01:09 -0600
Send reply to:    outlands at mail.unm.edu
From:             Nancy Lynch <lughbec at info2000.net>
To:               outlands at mail.unm.edu
Subject:          Re: Group Names

Jeanne Stapleton wrote:
> There's a fascinating thread running on the Ansteorran list right
> now which aroused my curiosity...it's about how the groups got their
> names. <...>

The Canton of Bofharrach in the Barony of Unser Hafen 
(formerly Uns Haven, for our wooly men up north:) started out with a
few students and a hand full of us "old folks" who met every week to
dance and fight.  After a couple months, (now Sir) Akira got to
prodding us into getting some identity and thinking about researching
a name. There were those that thought that our "symbol" should be the
same as the college.  However, those of us that hadn't even Seen a
bear outside of a zoo, had trouble identifying it with our locale. 
Dragonspine had a visible mascot, we enjoyed that notion, something
you could see that had to do with the region.

For those of you unaware, Greeley, CO has been a cattle shipping and
processing area since the introduction of cows to the region in the
1800s.  We have been known as a "cowtown", with justification, since
before our first town charter.  Cows are still a major source of
income and employment for the region.

And, for those who have not a Celtic background, cows were in period
the highest medium of exchange.  Actually, many cultures shared this
attribute, but the Irish in particular took it into the very fiber of
their language. A pathway was described by how many cows could walk
side by side on it. A nobles honor price in Irish society was denoted
by how many milch cows he/she was worth. Gathering places were named
often by the use that place had for cattle; Booley (milking or dairy
place) Badhun (cow fortress) Boyagh (cow house) River Boyle (river of
good pasture, cow river)....

We originally made the mistake of trying to affix the place name with
modern context meanings and came up with Dun Bolacht.  This was
erroneous as its meaning instead of "Fortress of the cattle", was
actually "Fortress of Cattle products" and was bad Irish grammer ....
So it was suggested by the Laurels-all-knowing that we try DunBo.  Too
many of our members were reminded of a flying Disney elephant, so that
idea didn't fly.

In consulting with those-in-the-know, we merged Bo (meaning =
cow/cattle) and Farrach (meaning = meeting place) in the correct
context and Irish grammer, and ended with "Bofharrach" = "Meeting
place of the cows".  This, in period context with Irish culture, would
have been a noble place indeed.  Where you gathered your cattle and
had your fairs and did your negotiations was a very powerful and
important area.  All of a clan, clanchief, Tuathe (region) and King's
worth could be summed up in their cattle, and how many they could hang
on to.

Those who do not understand might take the modern context of cows
(those inbred silly black and white speckled things with dumb looks)
and misinterpret our meaning.  But when faced with the ancient wooly
breeds of cattle, with the huge horns and noble character, you get a
different perspective.  We have fun with it, but we are also "deadly"
serious.

Go raibh maith agat! (May good go at you!)
Mistress Lughbec ni Eoin of Bofharrach
Countess Berengaria de Montfort de Carcassonne, OP
Barony of Caerthe
Kingdom of the Outlands


From: "Jeanne Stapleton" <jstaplet at adm.law.du.edu>
Organization: Univ. of Denver, College of Law
To: "Mark Harris"
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:20:31 -700 MST
Subject: (Fwd) Re: Group Names

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date:          Fri, 17 Oct 1997 02:50:37 -0400 (EDT)
From:          LoneWlf at aol.com
To:            outlands at mail.unm.edu
Subject:       Re: Group Names

Well, as to what I know about names:

The Shire of Windkeep was once known as WindDragon, I do believe. 
(Lord Coengar and Master Rhys would know more of Windkeep's origins
than I would, since I'm a bit of a transplant.  :-)

And, being originally from Duthaich Beinne Aird (Laramie, WY) and
having been seneschal there when the name was first submitted, that
shire orginally wanted the name of 'Ard Tir', meaning 'High Land' in
Gaelic, but Laurel rejected it as being in conflict with the Kingdom
of An Tir as well as being what the Scots to this day still use to
refer to the Scottish Highlands (Made sense to us at the time, and we
never even thought of it) so the name was resubmitted.  Not long ago
the current name of Duthaich Beinne Aird was passed.  It means 'High
Mountain Country' in Gaelic.  (This makes sense, as Laramie is about
7200 feet above sea level nestled in the valley of a small mountain
range)

There's my musings from my scant 7 years in the SCA and what I've been
through with group names.  Personally, I'm interested to see how
al-Barran, Arquelle, Caerthe, and places further south of Unser Hafen
got their names.

Duncan MacAllister


From: "Jeanne Stapleton" <jstaplet at adm.law.du.edu>
Organization: Univ. of Denver, College of Law
To: "Mark Harris" <mark_harris at quickmail>
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:13:32 -700 MST
Subject: (Fwd) Re: Group Names

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date:          Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:13:00 -0600
From:          Pendar the Bard <pendar at highfiber.com>
To:            outlands at mail.unm.edu
Subject:       Re: Group Names

> Not long ago the current name of Duthaich Beinne Aird was
> passed.  It means 'High Mountain Country' in Gaelic.  (This makes
> sense, as Laramie is about 7200 feet above sea level nestled in the
> valley of a small mountain range)

That's cool. In period places were generally named after the
surrounding environment so it's good to see that practice used in the
SCA. Do you have any idea why the group chose a rampant elephant as
its primary charge? (The device was registered last month.)

> There's my musings from my scant 7 years in the SCA and what I've
> been through with group names.  Personally, I'm interested to see
> how al-Barran, Aarquelle, Caerthe, and places further south of Unser
> Hafen got their names.
>  Any historians on those?

The rumour I hear about the origins of al-Barran is that someone, I
think it was the founding Baron, Raymond the Quiet, was under the
misconception that the star Aldebaran meant "The Scorpion" in Arabic
(or at least had "scorpion" connotations.) The group had already
chosen the scorpion for its symbol since it was located in the middle
of a desert. I'm not sure exactly how "al-Barran" was extracted from
"Aldebaran", but maybe this will stir a memory in someone else. What
Aldebaran actually means is "The Follower" since it follows the
Pleiades across the sky.


Date:          Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:41:05 -0600
From:          Pendar the Bard <pendar at highfiber.com>
To:            outlands at mail.unm.edu
Subject:       Re: Group Names

> so the name "Stonehaven" went away, no release involved.  After
> several iterations, including a name similar in sound to "Unser
> Hafen", which ment "unshaven" (and thus that legend),

So it is true! Well, that's one for the books! (Or at least the
Staglopedia.)

> the group arrived at the name "Unser Hafen", meaning "Our Home" in
> ?german? (or whatever).

Yes, in German. (could also translate to "Our House". Basically it
just means "Our safe place-- our Haven." Which is why the final line
in the song I wrote for your Barony is "We fight for 'Our House', it's
from there our strength flows."

> Sir Kevin McKinnen was there at the time, and you might check with
> him for the exact details.  Thorfinn

I will definitely check with him when I am ready to assist in
researching the next edition of the Staglopedia. Thank you.

-Pendar


Subject:  Re: history behind shire name?
Date:  Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:10:07 -0600
To:  Mark Harris <rsve60 at email.sps.mot.com>
From:  Robert Beaulieu <robert.beaulieu at sympatico.ca>

        The Shire de l'Isle du Dragon Dormant is the first and oldest branch in
 Quebec. I always was under the impression (I do not remember ever
 discussing the matter with the founder) that it is a mundane rerference.

 The Shire de l'Isle du Dragon Dormant is located in Montreal. an island
 with a small mountain (Mont-Royal) that for many years was speculated to
 possibely be of volcanic origin. Voilà: the island and the sleeping
 "dragon"!

MiLord it is also of interest to know that the arms of the shire
reflect this "tale".

      Purpure,:
         I do not know why purpure likely no reason
      a chevron argent:
         The chevron is the mountain (Mont-Royal)
      between in chief a laurel wreath:
         Obvious (The SCA)
      between two fleurs-de-lys in fess:
         The french origin of the vast majority of the People and of the Land
      and in base a dragon dormant, wings elevated and addorsed, Or:
         The reminder of the "possible" volcanic origin of the mountaim.

                         Lord Robert de QuelQuePart



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