placenames-msg - 10/4/00 Origins and meanings of SCA place names. Some of the stories behind them. This is the first of two files. NOTE: See also the files: SCA-hist1-msg, SCA-stories1-msg, child-stories-msg, you-know-msg, border-stories-msg, Hst-SCA-Fence-art, placenames2-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: Dafydd Ap Rhys To: Orilee_J_Ireland-Delfs.Wbst845 at xero Re: Group names Date: 12 May 91 01:26:54 Unto Orianna vander Delft, greetings You did ask about the story of groups names. When I first joined the Society I was curious about some of the names in my neck of the woods, so I asked about them. The Shire I currently live is Northkeep, Ansteorra (Tulsa, Ok) Northkeep is the northern most group in Ansteorra. The Barony of Eldern Hills (Lawton Ok) is located in the Arbuckle Mts. The Arbuckles are one of the oldest Mountain Ranges in the world. There was a Shire of Morrow's Keep (Ada, Oklahoma). The town of Ada was founded by one Ada Morrow. The first Shire I belonged to was The Shire of Mooneshadow (Stillwater Ok) I still haven't figured this one out. Mooneshadows neighbor is the Barony of Weisenfeur(sp?) ( Oklahoma City ) I am told that Weisenfeur roughly translates from German to "Burning wheat", which is a darned good description of central Oklahoma. The oldest Barony in Northern Ansteorra is the Barony of Namron (Norman Ok.) Namron is Norman backwards. (sigh) Yours in Service Dafydd ap Rhys From: Alex_Hart at mindlink.bc.ca (Alex Hart) Date: 10 May 91 13:32:09 GMT Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada Here in mundane Vancouver B.C.,the choice fell to Lions Gate,and although I was not around in those days,it was probably an easy choice. Nearby,up in the hills are two peaks which can be easily seen from most points around Vancouver.Without too much imagination,the can be taken for couchant lions and are indeed known as "The Lions".And as they look like the stone lions often seen at gateways or entrances(you know sort of like garden gnomes in a way) many things around are known as Lions Gate(a bridge and hospital come to mind quickly).So ,Lions GAte was chosen.I do understand that in the early days there were so many gentles with Russian personnae in the area there was thought of clling it "Lions Gate in Russian" . Not in the Russian language but just as you see it.Luckily ( I guess :-) ) saner (?) minds prevailed and the idea was dropped in favour of the simpler Lions Gate. Alastair the Eastern Traveller Lions Gate,An Tir From: tmf4387 at tamsun.tamu.edu (Michael Phelan (mka Michael Farlow)) Date: 13 May 91 16:03:06 GMT Organization: Shire of the Shadowlands (Texas A&M Univ.) Orilee_J_Ireland-Delfs.Wbst845 at xerox.COM writes: >In working with Fridrikr on the Society Regnum, I found the names of groups to >be quite fascinating. Some naming practices were very regional (for example, >many of the south western and western US groups used Spanish names or >translations, many of the groups in Drachenwald have germanic names). Others >gave you no clue as to why a group was called that. > >It would be fascinating to find out why a group came up with the name they did. >Some of this just came out on the Heralds talknet from Lord Arval in his >listing of the East Kingdom Heraldic Titles and the reason for most of the >titles being what they were. > >Anyone else want to share their group's "story"? > >Orianna vander Delft From the desk of Michael Phelan of the Shadowlands does this missive bring greetings to the fishers on the Rialto... Mistress Orianna asked to hear of the story behind the names of the local groups. I can relate the story of my own group and can probably guess at one of the local barony's. My local group is the Shire of the Shadowlands in the Kingdom of Ansteorra (Long Live Queen Rowan!!) [editorial sidenote here---Duke Inman one the Ansteorran Crown Tournament for his 5th time this weekend, so I guess the Once and Everyother King lives on :-]. We (or should I say the originals?) call ourselves that since the being located in Bryan/College Station Texas (Where Texas A&M is), we are surrounded by baronies: Stargate (Houston) to the Southeast, Bjournsbourg (San Antonio, owners of the BFT {Big F_cking Tent at TFYC}) to the SW, Bryn Gwlad (Austin) to the West, Raven's Fort to the East, Steppes (Dallas) and Elf Sea (Ft. Worth) to the north. On Many of the known world maps, Baronies are depicted with two (2) towers while shires and cantons have only one. The orginal Shire folk thought that since we were surrounded by *ALL* of these towers, that we were in their shadows, ergo, Shadowlands. Also, the story that I like, and is an inside joke, is that we of the Shadowlands are all a bunch of little mushrooms, since many like to keep us in the dark and feed us sh_t. In Service, Michael Phelan Deupty Seneschal/Public Relations Shire of the Shadowlands, Ansteorra From: justin at inmet.inmet.COM (Justin du Coeur MKA Mark Waks) Date: 13 May 91 18:20:15 GMT Organization: The Internet Re: Group names Orianna asks where groups got their names from. The answer for Carolingia becomes relatively obvious once you realize that Boston's most distinctive geographic landmark is the Charles River. Thus, the name "Carolingia" comes from the river (via Latin), and the pall wavy (a sort of drunken "Y" for the non-heralds) on the device is representative of the river... (And the title Golden Gryphon Pursuivant comes from the yellow Gryphons that aren't on our device. Historical artifacts are so wonderful...) -- Justin du Coeur Philosopher of Carolingia From: JCASE at pearl.tufts.EDU ("John H. Case") Date: 14 May 91 18:27:33 GMT A minor correction to Justin du Coeur's posting about the Carolingian name. The pall wavy on the arms and badges of Carolingia actually (I belive) is supposed to symbolize the congruence of the Charles and Mystic rivers, and the three areas the field is thus divided into symbolize the three counties of Norfolk, Suffolk, and Middlesex. And yes, the Golden Gryphon Pursuivant is named for the gryphons that are not there. When the arms of Carolingia were proposed in the mists of time, they included a pair of gryphons sejant respectant on either side of the vertical arm of the pall. This was rejected by Council as being too hard to draw. When I, then glorying in the title "Pursuivant at Arms in Ordinary to the Barony of Carolingia" had to propose a title for my office, I proposed "Golden Gryphon" (keep quiet, you James Bond fans). Cou ncil approved, the name was submitted, and I became the first "Golden Gryphon Pursuivant." One final note,Council also approved a badge for my office, consisting of the arms of Carolingia WITH the Gryphons, and without the laurel wreath. The badge was never submitted. The gryphons weretoo hard to draw. -Taran of Windy Hill first (and fourth) Golden Gryphon, now very thankfully retired from that office. From: 6790753%356_WEST_58TH_5TH_FL%NEW_YORK_NY%WNET_6790753 at mcimail.COM ("KATMAN.WNETS385") Date: 14 May 91 19:11:00 GMT Good day good gentles, Being a short list of groups in the Southern East Kingdom and how they got their names (if I'm wrong I know you'll correct me :) : There are several groups in NJ that were named for local landmarks. Barren Sands (Southern NJ Shore...below the Mason Dixon line :) is in the Pine Barrens and most of the soil there is sand. Carillon (Central NJ) was named that because all the founders lived within sound of Princeton U's bell's carillon. Keep by the Endless Sea (a canton of Carillon) is Bradley Beach, NJ right on the Atlantic Ocean. Settmour Swamp (North Central NJ) is composed of SomerSET and MORris counties (as well as a few others) and there is a real swamp right in the middle. There are 2 cantons of Settmour, Gryphonwald and Marwick. I do not know how they picked their names (Jessa? Mitchell?). Iron Bog (South Jersey) has a lot of small lakes and areas that were cranberry bogs (not sure about the iron part, maybe because of industry in Camden, NJ). Rusted Woodlands (North Jersey and South Eastern NY West of the Hudson) was formed from the ashes of a group called Iron Forest, presumably named for the juxtaposition of wooded land and the heavy industry in the area. Whyt Whey (canton of Ostgardr in Manhattan... you know, Broadway, the Great White Way) well, that says it all. Someone else can tell the naming of Ostgardr (5 NYC boroughs + LI and 2 upstate counties...Dawyd?), I don't tell it well, being a cheese farmer from 9-5 only (one of the translations of Ostgardr is East Guard, another is cheese farm). St. Pyr's Well (a defunct canton of Ostgardr on Staten Island) is named for St. Pyr, an 8th century Welsh saint who died when he fell down a well. Really, check the saint books. For more on the Hagiography of St. Pyr I have to defer to Johannes v. N. (please tell the story 'Hannes, please?). Winifred de Schyppewallebotham (that's Middle English for "From the valley with the stream where the sheep were washed") Lee Katman == Thirteen/WNET == New York, NY From: haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock) Date: 15 May 91 01:42:33 GMT Organization: DECwest, Digital Equipment Corp., Bellevue WA The tale I heard of the naming of Ostgardr was that the group wanted to call it East Guard. It being then the only group in the East. Someone, possibly a herald objected so the Norse types worked out that Ostgardr was pronounced East guard and either looked like or really was a direct translation. Over the years, the populace replaced itself and the pronunciation changed. Fiacha, Aquaterra, AnTir "The tale I heard of the naming of Ostgardr was that the group wanted to call it East Guard. It being then the only group in the East. Someone, possibly a herald objected so the Norse types worked out that Ostgardr was pronounced East guard and either looked like or really was a direct translation." (Fiacha) The original form was Estgard; I think that in that form it was invented by Garanhir of Ness. I believe someone around at the time who knew old Norse, probably Sir Eiolf Ericsson, proposed the conversion to Ostgardr, meaning Eastern City or something similar--analogous to Micklegardr (sp?) ("Big City"), which is what the Norse called Constantinople. At the time the name originated, New York was certainly not the only group in the East. Someone asked about my name. For the full story, see the letter in TI 46 starting on page 32. I am not the author; I wish I were. I originally intended it as a variant on the name of Carahue of Mauretania, a Moslem King in the Chanson de Geste Ogier le Danois. Years later, when I had decided I ought to be more careful about such things, I went to a friend who was a professional linguist and asked him to find a plausible Arabic name that might have been mispronounced "Cariadoc" by the Franks. The letter in T.I. 46, starting on page 32, was the result; it was written, not by me, but by my friend, and is a fine example of in persona writing. Qari-al-Dhuq, known among the Franks as Cariadoc From: PSCHROED at DREW.BITNET ("Schroeder, P. David") Date: 14 May 91 04:55:00 GMT Organization: The Internet Subject: Group Naming Stories I'd like to share a few stories about how groups got their names. Since I joined the Society in 1975/XI I was part of the naming process for four groups and two SCA-related publications. The name for the Canton of Ivory Tower (Swarthmore College) was determined by folks that had more experience in the Society than I did, but ALL of us cheered the designation. It was a perfect fit for a small, cerebral liberal arts school. The group "folded" a number of years ago, but the Barony of Bhakail (Philadelphia) retains the name should it be resurrected. Next I traveled to Princeton, NJ and served as the first seneschal of the Shire (now the barony) of Carillion. That name was based on some digging in Bullfinch's Mythology. Caer Leon, the fabled capital of King Arthur, was supposed to have had a college, a seminary, and a school for singers. Princeton had the university, the theological school, and a famous choir college. It seemed a good fit, but I was advised by the wise Lady Melisande de Belvoir (now Duchess) that the East already had plenty of "caers" and I should try another tack. Later that week I heard the bells chiming in churches near campus and realized that Norman invaders could easily mis-hear Arthur's Caer Leon for the more familiar French word "Carillion." Everyone else liked the story and that is why Carillion bears a bell on its device. The College of Grey Gargoyles (University of Chicago) was named for two rather striking features of the place - first, there are gargoyles all over, especially on a beautiful gate that forms the "official" entrance to campus. Second, the color adjective not only referred to the color of the stone the beasties were carved from, but also the name of the President of the University back in the late 1970's, Hannah Gray. [Is she still there, Cariadoc?] Charles Gray, her husband and a period(?) historian served as our first advisor (on the condition that the position be a sinecure). I find it rather amusing that Tree-girt-sea (the province that now includes all of Chicago) got started at U. of C. many years earlier (Cariadoc/DF was well known around the place, especially with the folks who reserved space...) and had migrated to the opposite end of town, about 15 miles away by the time my lady and I arrived. Other groups can tell stories of mass-migrations or population shifts. Carillion has moved toward the east and Princeton is no longer within its official bounds! Gray Gargoyles device was basically a blue shield with a "gray" embattled fess between a "gray(argent)" gargolye and a laurel wreath. We helped form a canton in the north suburbs of Pittsburgh when we traveled again. Because of the unusual topography of the Debateable Lands (lots of rivers, streams, hills, etc.) there are bridges all over the place. Due to the "decaying infra- structure" in the area, at the time the canton was forming there were five bridges under repair and it seemed appropriate (since an older group was folding at the same time) to call it the Canton of Broken Bridges. The device of the canton featured a gold shield with two green laurel wreaths between three broken bridges in black. The name for the Compleat Anachronist pamphlet series (which my lady and I initiated during our term at TI Editors/SCA Chroniclers, and which was ably nurtured by Viscountess Nige of the Cleftlands), was chosen simply because I believed it had sufficient "scope" to cover any topic that might come up. It probably owes a subconscious dept to L. Sprague de Camp's "Incompleat Enchanter" series, but also draws on titles of various late period compendiums. Finally, the AEstel (newsletter for the new Eastern principality of AEthelmearc) came from some historical/heraldic research. I discovered that an aestel was the name for a small pointer used by teachers in their instructions, but it also meant "little pikestaff." Since the Pikestaff is the name of the East Kingdom's newsletter it seemed an appropriate "tribute." From its first meaning "aestel" also has the implication of "instructions" or "information." [Eromene reminded me that the "pointer" an aestel was referring to was small and was also used as a "bookmark." I'm missing my original sources...] My lady and I were off in Calontir when the new principality was named, but it seems only fitting that the newsletter we'd named should share the initial AE with the name of its territory. [The first prince was originally from - Broken Bridges...] I hope you've enjoyed hearing about the names that I have personally helped to "coin." I'd like to hear other people tell of the origins of their own group's name in future posts. Many thanks, Bertram of Bearington PSCHROED at drew.edu From: Z4610816 at SFAUSTIN.BITNET (Z4610816) Date: 15 May 91 09:33:47 GMT Organization: The Internet I tried to send this before, but I got back an "undeliverable" message. My apologies if this duplicates earlier postings. -istress Greetings, Y'all. I offer another Ansteorran naming story, particularly since I beieve there is no one else left in the society who knows it. When we were organizing our poor shire, we sought inspiration in vain. We were all newbies, and had no unity of ethnos. We had English, Norse, Byzantine, and Generic personnas, so we needed a nice, non-commital name. A mundane friend (who would not like to see his name remembered) looked out my dorm room window at the 60' pines dripping with three weeks of drizzle, and said "How about 'Graywood'." The spelling is still contro- versial, with half the shire stubbornly spelling it "Greywood". My own research ten years ago dated "grey" to the late seventeenth century, and I am still waiting for one of the "e" partisans to prove me wrong. - Lord Lyelf Hrothbjartsson the Lame, S.C., AoA, Q.R. AKA "Uncle Bob", the remaining Founding Father of Graywood. Bob Lyle <Z4610816 at sfaustin.bitnet> From: dmb at inls1.ucsd.edu (Doug Brownell) Date: 16 May 91 18:47:19 GMT Organization: Institute for Nonlinear Science Greetings from Thomas Brownwell in sunny Calafia; David Rogoff writes: >Just found this out last week: > > Kingdom of Caid is from the from groups that were in it when it formed: > > C- Califia (San Diego) > A- Angles (Los Angeles) > I- Isles (Santa Barbara) > D- Dreiburgen (Riverside/San Bernadino) It just so happened that in arabic (I think) the word caid means fortress. I have a 1938 english dictionary, and it lists caid by this definition. A bit of trivia -- The crown prince of Caid is referred to as al-Caid, and I had always assumed that it meant something as simple as "The Caid" or "Of Caid" (which it probably does), but my dictionary lists alcaid as being the keeper of the fortress, almost like Castellan or Major-General. Someone had a good knowledge of english, or a lot of luck in choosing that title. Enough for now. Thomas Douglas M. Brownell | Thomas Brownwell Institute for Nonlinear Science, R-002 | Barony of Calafia University of California, San Diego | Kingdom of Caid La Jolla, CA 92093 | | Anachronist (noun): Internet: dmb at inls1.ucsd.edu | Out of time; dbrownell at ucsd.edu | Gotta go! From: joshua at paul.rutgers.edu (Josh Mittleman) Date: 15 May 91 13:48:44 GMT Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J. Greetings from Arval! This is the story of the name of Ostgardr, as best I know it. I wasn't there, so some of it is probably mythology, but so what? Myths make good stories. The East Kingdom, of course, started in NYC. For a rather long time, what with more than half the kings living in NY, most of the peers being in NY, and like that, NY was simply referred to as "the East". As other groups formed (Carolingia, Mrqud, Bhakail, etc.), it came to be known as "The Crown Province." It was ruled directly by the Crown. At some point, the fact that the Crown Province had no name became something of a joke, and it came to be known as "The Nameless Province." An actual name was, indeed, coined by Sir Garanhir, as Cariadoc recounted. "Ostgardr" (properly spelled with a stroke through the O and with the Norse lower-case thorn instead of a d, means roughly "East Castle" or "East City". It is pronounced vaguely like "OOST-garth(r)", with the final r nearly silent. A common joke on the name (of which I do not know the origin) is that if you spell it "Ostgard", it means "cheese farm." To this day, the Ostgardians occasionally describe themselves as the Happy Cheesefarmers. Arval. From: hamilton at adi.COM (Cindy Hamilton) Date: 15 May 91 14:33:51 GMT Organization: The Internet Unto the Fisherfolk of the Rialto, from Angelica Paganelli, her most courteous greetings: The Shire of Cynnabar (in the Middle Kingdom) has a name with meaning on several levels. Cinnabar (of which Cynnabar is an alternate spelling) is a mercuric ore that can be found near Ann Arbor. It is familiar as a reddish mineral carved into jewelry in China. Translated, it means "dragons' blood" (or perhaps that's the Chinese name for the mineral--it's been about ten years since I heard this stuff). As the dragon is symbolic of the Middle Kingdom, Cynnabar is the heart's blood of the kingdom (doo-dah, doo-dah). [I'm a little cynical about this whole nationalism thing.] We had some trouble in trying to register this name; there is a science fiction novel about a city called Cinnabar where odd thing happen. (I haven't read it myself, actually.) We had to do a quick soft shoe for the College of Heralds, and convince them we didn't intend to style our city after the fictional one; we also wrote the author of the novel and asked his permission to use his copyrighted city's name. He acceded. Now that I think of it, the registered name of Cynnabar is the Royal Burgh of Cynnabar. I think this was some effort at making it plain that the Free and Peace-Loving (but Militarily Strong) Shire of Cynnabar is not under the thumb of the Squire-Crushing Barony of Northwoods. Also, there was some sentiment that "Shire" seemed a little too rural for an essentially urban group. That's all I can remember of it. Written this 15th Day of May, A.S. XXVI, at Casa Salone Rigararsi, in the Shire of Cynnabar, Middle Kingdom Cindy Hamilton Applied Dynamics International 3800 Stone School Road Ann Arbor, MI 48108 (313)973-1300 hamilton at adi.com hamilton at amara.uucp uunet!amara!hamilton From: rogoff at teradyne.UUCP (David Rogoff) Date: 15 May 91 18:11:17 GMT Organization: Teradyne STD, CAE Just found this out last week: Kingdom of Caid is from the from groups that were in it when it formed: C- Califia (San Diego) A- Angles (Los Angeles) I- Isles (Santa Barbara) D- Dreiburgen (Riverside/San Bernadino) Also, my barony, Altavia (Pronounced Al-tay-vee-uh) is a play on the spanish alta-via or high-way because of all the highways crossing the San Fernando Valley. David Rogoff (in between personas) From: 0003900943 at mcimail.COM (Marla Lecin) Date: 15 May 91 18:35:00 GMT Organization: The Internet Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Greetings unto the Rialto, from Baroness Jessa d'Avondale. As to group names in New Jersey: I can't say for sure about Rusted Woodlands (North NJ), but in the area of Iron Bog (SW NJ) they really did mine for iron ore at one time. When we started our canton, Marwick, several years ago: Master Christopher Darras wanted a nifty name having to do with Saint Hugh, whose symbol is a swan, since it's so easy to buy swan-shaped items (serving pieces, etc). No one really agreed with him, and at one of our first meetings we spent time going through lots of books. We tried for something Netherland-ish (low countries, and all) and someone came up with Nethermoor (we are a canton of Settmour *Swamp*, after all). This led to inevitable thoughts of E.A. Poe, and when I said, "Well, why just not design a device with a raven on it" (sarcastically), some people thought that was the way to go. A more vocal portion of the group felt that puns were fine, but not puns based on 19th century authors. Next we tried putting all the possible names on a list, and asking each person to cross off any name they absolutely could not live with. I was one of the people backing "Marwick", "Fenwick", and similar names. They mean something like "the village in the moors/swamp"; I preferred them because they sounded more like real place-names to me. Jessa Marla_Lecin at mcimail.com From: justin at inmet.inmet.COM (Justin du Coeur MKA Mark Waks) Date: 15 May 91 19:58:09 GMT Organization: The Internet Fiacha writes: >The tale I heard of the naming of Ostgardr was that the group wanted to >call it East Guard. It being then the only group in the East. Someone, >possibly a herald objected so the Norse types worked out that Ostgardr >was pronounced East guard and either looked like or really was a direct >translation. Over the years, the populace replaced itself and the >pronunciation changed. Well, Ostgardr certainly wasn't the only group in the East when it got its name; when NYC was all there was to the East Kingdom, it simply called itself "The East Kingdom". (Indeed, in those early days, the Crown was actually restricted to people who lived within -- I think -- 50 miles of the City.) As I understand it, once the Baronies (Carolingia, Bhakail, Myrkwode, probably one or two others I'm forgetting) started popping up, "The East Kingdom" was loathe to cease calling itself that, and started referring to itself as The Capital Province, or some such. People from other groups started calling it "The Nameless Province", which didn't sit too well, so it eventually took on the name Ostgardr. (I gather that the "cheese farmer" confusion relates to whether or not the appropriate diacritical marks are on the O...) It still retains the possibly-unique designation of "Crown Province", last I checked... (Caveat: the above is strictly from memory of The Files, plus hearsay stories. But it *sounds* good, anyway...) -- Justin du Coeur Chief Paper-Lugger for the EK Historian From: wlinden at msb.com (Alfgar the Sententious) Date: 16 May 91 03:49:31 GMT Organization: Meetpoint Station BBS In <May.15.09.48.43.1991.23031 at paul.rutgers.edu> joshua at paul.rutgers.edu (Josh Mittleman) writes: >Greetings from Arval! >and like that, NY was simply referred to as "the East". As other groups >formed (Carolingia, Mrqud, Bhakail, etc.), it came to be known as "The >Crown Province." It was ruled directly by the Crown. At some point, the Actually, it became an annoyance that people in such far reaches as Beyond the Mountain kept referring to visitors "from the East Kingdom". >fact that the Crown Province had no name became something of a joke, and it >came to be known as "The Nameless Province." An actual name was, indeed, This was decreed as the equivalent of a "holding name" when it became an issue, until the people could agree on something. >coined by Sir Garanhir, as Cariadoc recounted. "Ostgardr" (properly What Garanhir coined, and will tell you most strongly, was "Estgard" (apparently from vague associations with Midgard, Asgard, etc.) However, on the day of the meeting to consider it, Sir Eiolf Eriksson picked the occasion to emerge from the woodwork (and has not been seen since.) He complained that "Estgard" was not authentic Old Norse, and browbeat the meeting into that thing which can only be pronounced by a full-blooded Icelander. The question nobody dared ask was "Who said it was supposed to be Old Norse?" I understand we were told later by a credentialled scholar that "Ostgardr" is not proper Norse either. Sigh.... -- Will Linden MCI: WLINDEN Internet: wlinden at msb.com "On to the castle, to kill the royal UUCP: ...uupsi!mpoint!wlinden family, and claim the throne that Compuserve: 72737,2150 isn't mine by right!" From: nomad at watson.ibm.com (Lee 'nomad' Damon) Date: 17 May 91 13:47:19 GMT Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center, NY Unto the Fisherfolk of the Rialto, Greetings! The Freehold of Turris Nimborum (aka Wet or soggy Tower) was named for the fact that it was on a college campus (Ivory Tower type things) in Oregon. It was not unusual for our events to be rained on at least once per event. It was formed when the local Graff told a friend of mine "You _will_ start a group on campus." My friend was the first seneschal, I was the second. We had close ties to the local shire (Coeur du Val, which is named from the city we were in - Corvallis). I'm not going to try to blazon the device, but basically it is a tower superimposed over three wavy blue lines. I've no idea if the group still exists, but it was going strong when I left there in '88. On a different note, the shire that I'm now a member of wanted to call themselves "Val Cour" but were told they had a conflict with a far off shire... the shire of Coeur du Val. Strange coincidences abound, as only a few months after this obscure An Tirian shire was brought to their attention, I move into the area. Who'd'a thunk it. :-) Laurus aka nomad mka Lee Damon From: cat at fgssu1.sinet.slb.COM (Insignificant Pondscum) Date: 20 May 91 22:23:20 GMT Organization: The Internet To Keradwc and anybody else who's interested: Gorgonoth (canton of Angels), founded by Waldt and Alison von Markheim became the Barony of Dreibergen with Alison and Waldt as first Baroness and Baron. They called it Dreibergen because of the three big mountains within the Barony's borders : Mount San Gregorio, Mount San Jacinto, and (!) Mount Baldy (!). Now, all of you present and former caidans (of which I am one too!) are probably thinking: but Mount Baldy's in Heatherwine!?! Well, Mount Baldy is in Heatherwine, but Heatherwine wasn't around when Dreibergen was founded. The area that makes up Heatherwine today was originally part of Dreibergen. That territory was ceded when Heatherwine became a shire. Now when Alsion told me the story of the founding of Dreibergen (because I foolishly wanted to know where the name came from...), after she told me about giving Mount Baldy away to Heatherwine, I asked her why they didn't change the name to "Zweibergen" (I even kept a straight face when I did this, which was remarkable under the circumstances). And the look I got out of Alison can only be imagined if you know Alison (if looks could wither, I'd be a prune by now...). <Ya sure, it was fun!> The Completely Innocent Tux (really! no kidding! would I ever pull anyone's leg?!? Me?!?) From: bethmo at microsoft.UUCP (Beth MOURSUND) Date: 19 May 91 07:34:35 GMT Organization: Microsoft Corp., Redmond WA Here's a list of some An Tir names and their origins, as told to me by various folk many years ago... An Tir: Gaelic for "The Land" -- let's be presumptuous, shall we? Adiantum: the botanical name of the founding baroness's favorite flower, possibly misspelled Three Mountains: originally tried to register as "The Barony of the Mountains" but heralds rejected as too general. So the baron looked out his window and saw three mountains. Resubmitted as "Three Mountains" and it passed. (Known for a few years as "2 1/2 Mountains" after St. Helens erupted...) Madrone: a tree native to the area Lions Gate: name of a large bridge in the mundane city Wastekeep: site of mundane nuke facility Coeur du Val: mundane town of Corvallis translated into French Southmarch: shire on the far southern border Dragon's Mist: local "myth" that the fog was dragon's breath Dragon's Lair: another "myth" about dragons Seagirt: it's an island Shittemwoode: official explanation: the wood that the arc of the covenant was made from. Unofficial: hey, this was the group that Fast Eddie -- er, excuse me, Viscount Sir Edward Zifran -- founded. And they have a drowning rabbit carrying a shepards crook for their arms... College of St. Bunstable: named after a fictional saint created locally whose fame has spread far across the known world Appledore: founder lived on an apple farm -- Shara Tunoy, originally from Adiantum, now resident in Madrone and mostly inactive From: kevin%athens.dnet at isi.COM (Keradwc an Cai) Date: 20 May 91 00:32:42 GMT Organization: The Internet The origins of names: The only one I've been directly involved with is that of the (then) Shire (now Barony) of Starkhafn in Las Vegas, Nevada. A number of variants were used temporarily, but the only one which gained any support was Starkhafn itself - although dozens of spelling variants came up. Why? Well, Las Vegas is a haven in the middle of the desert, but not much of one; thus, "stark". The linguistically pure might object to the two-language puns, but it's all there was. Others which I have second-or-third-hand reports of (and don't mind being corrected on) are: Angels (Barony in Caid): Los Angeles county, for obvious reasons. Greywinds (old canton): City of Los Angeles, for obvious reasons Calafia (Barony in Caid): the old name for the area now called San Diego. Altavia (Barony in Caid): High Road, with a black fret; Freeways and freeway crossings. (San Fernando Valley & northern Los Angeles areas.) Dreiburgen (Barony in Caid): the common mundane nickname for the area is the Inland Empire (honest); the other is the Tri-City Area. Though I went to school in what _might_ have been one of the three, nobody then was able to tell me for a fact which that third one was. (Riverside/San Bernardino/? areas) Gyldenholt (Barony in Caid): Golden Groves - for the Orange County area ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Keradwc an Cai | | In the Mists of the West | |--------------------|--------------------------|---------------------------| From: david at twg.com (David S. Herron) Date: 20 May 91 01:24:30 GMT Organization: The Wollongong Group, Palo Alto, CA I joined the SCA in Central Kentucky and, so long as people are talking about how groups got named, I've got a couple to relate. Shire of Dragonsmark: This is a group which had a burst of activity quite awhile back (say, 15 years ago) which died off after a couple of years. I do not know what made it die off, I was not involved back then but happened to know a few of the people who WERE involved. I did not join up until about 10 years afterwards when the group had resurrected itself. What I was told (or maybe it was Kwellend this was told to) by the old-timers of the group was: This is a corruption of "Dragons March". That is, we were at-or-near the southern border of the Middle Kingdom. A "march" is supposed to be a border territory, probably 1 days march across. Since the main symbol in the Middle is the dragon .... College of the Cheval Flamant: This was an abortive attempt to have a group on the U of Kentucky campus, mostly so that the Shire could have access to university facilities. I happened to be in on the naming of this, and may well have come up with the actual words. The idea was, though, that all around us were flaming things of some sort, so there must've been something about the area which made all these flaming things .... (We were in a kingdom with a dragon. The local shire repeated the "dragon" motif. In Louisville there is a flaming sword (Barony of the Flame), and in Cincinatti is a flaming bird (Shire of Fenix).) Now, Central Kentucky has a lot of horses around, soooo... Oh, and my persona is French. Dunno if the college ever became an official group... (?) David From: comqoic at BUACCA.BITNET ("Ed Wang ", comqoic at bu.buacca.edu) Date: 20 May 91 17:20:20 GMT Organization: The Internet To all denizens of the Rialto, both learned and verbose, I add my two cents worth concerning the borough of Southebanke, the college group of Boston University, located in that most pleasant of lands, Carolingia. The city of Boston is separated from the neighboring city of Cambridge by the Charles River. As I heard it told, Boston University is located on the southern bank of this river -- therefore, our name -- Southebanke. Were we to annex M.I.T., then we could name it Northebanke... yeah, that's the ticket... Oh, also, are there any precedents for changing place names? Are place names corresponding to real places acceptable? Who should we talk to about that, if we were to change our name? Desperately seeking silver in fair Carolingia, -- The Zhong-Shan Wolf, Wang Kuei From: Dale at coyote.cs.wmich.EDU Date: 21 May 91 13:11:08 GMT Organization: The Internet Namining of Groups: Years ago I help start a group. The name we picked was the Canton of Three Walls. The town we was in had three state prisons. 30 miles away another group started, called Rimsholt. Sometimes refered too as rim shot. Three Walls and Rimsholt merged. Some of the local jokers Was claiming the new group was going to be called "Three Shots For A Dollar". From: warren at tsnews.Convergent.COM (Warren Brown) Date: 21 May 91 15:42:45 GMT Organization: Convergent Technologies, San Jose, CA Since there is at least one story behind every place-name in the SCA this thread could go on for a long time, but I do think these glimpses of our own history are interesting. The Barony of Bjornsborg in Ansteorra got its name from the mainly Nordic early group in San Antonio, led by seneschal Herward the Dane who was also active in NFPS. It's a generic Scandinavian translation of "Bear's Fort", punning on Bexar (pronounced "Bayer") county and the multitude of military bases in San Antonio. The Shire's symbol was of course a bear. A couple of years later Greyraven (the "founding" baron) added a fool's cap to the bear. Another couple of years and the baronial device was modified to its present form (two bears maintaining berdiches) by Baron Jan w Orzeldom. Prior to creation of the Bjornsborg name in AS IX the fledgling group in San Antonio tried a few other names, only one of which I remember: the "Wastes". South Texas was so labelled on an early SCA map prepared by (I think) Barok Baran, who was not impressed by the time he spent in Texas. The Barony of Stargate in Houston chose their name because of the NASA space center (following the lead of the Astros and their dome). With respect to the previous posting of the naming of the Shadowlands, I believe when the Shadowlands chose their name the only baronies in Texas were the Steppes, Stargate and Bjornsborg. The ease with which Aggie jokes convert to Shadowlander jokes is a great convenience to all neighbors of the Shadowlands. :-) They may still have felt overshadowed by all those baronial towers; I certainly never heard any other reason for their name. One of my favorite group names was created at a tournament in South Downs (Atlanta, GA) in about AS VII. At court the citizens of a new group wished to make a presentation to Baron Sven. The herald started to announce them, then paused and turned to the leader, "I'm sorry m'lord, but I don't know the name of your group." The response was, "Neither do we," in a fine Tennessee accent. So the presentation from the incipient Shire of Nyther Dwee was duly announced. I've probably butchered the spelling, but they liked the name and kept it. Warren Brown || Darcy Graham Silicon Valley || Esfenn, Mists, West From: Alex_Hart at mindlink.bc.ca (Alex Hart) Date: 22 May 91 00:19:56 GMT Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada To the gentle who asked about the origin of the name for the Shire of Appledore here in An Tir, I took the time to ask one their citizens who now resides in Lions Gate. The answer is (not too surprisingly) Yes, this name was inspired by the poem quoted from A.A. Milne. The originater of the shire is named Thomas both mundanely and in the society and coming from a region renowned for its' apples,what else could a Pooh bear fan call it ? Alastair the Eastern Traveller Lions Gate,An Tir From: polito at husc9.harvard.edu (Maya) Date: 23 May 91 13:18:01 GMT Organization: Harvard University Science Center Greetings, good gentles. Another story to add to the growing list of place name origins: I am a member of the burrough of Duncharloch (also, I believe, spelled Duncaerloch) in fair Carolingia. (Burrough is a baronial name for groups affiliated with a college.) As I have heard the story, our name means "Tower on the Charles," which is an appropriate name for a group started in a seventeen story dorm on the bank of the Charles river. But it is apparently also a tribute to the first faculty sponsor of our group, one Charles Dunn by name. --Fiammetta Adalieta di Damiano Leo From:_Ioseph of Locksley To: All Subject: names Date: 24 May 91 Well, since we are telling tales about the naming of SCA branches.... We were almost called the "Kingdom of the South" but that was shouted down (literally) in favor of "Atenveldt." "Atenveldt" is a semi-coined name that combines the Egyptian Aton (for the Sun) with Veldt for "world, or land." The Principality of the Sun is, of course, based on that......SunDragon was an inspired moment of insanity...the Founding Baroness, Alys Carvelsdottir (now in Ansteorra) lived in Goodyear, AZ....and saw the Goodyear Blimp one day, and..... A DRAGON! Dragons are a protected species in this Barony, incidentally. Ered Sul is from Tolkien, and was named after the Hopi's sacred mountain beneath which Flagstaff AZ lies. Wealhnutu? Well, a Certain Irreverent Cossack once said that the word was Navajo for "two fat broads on a hill..." Twin Moons (Mesa/Tempe AZ)......I will -not- speculate! I disremember the translation for Tyr Ysgithr (Tucson, AZ), but I seem to remember it has something to do with boars......Welsh, you know...... Loch Sallan is, of course, the Great Salt Lake of Utah. From: Thorfinn Halfblind Subject: Branch Names Date:_24 May 91 In Oertha the names come out like this: Oertha -- Welsh for ``The Cold Lands'' or ``The Land''. Eskalya -- An anagram/phonetic spelling of the old Tlingit/Aleut name for Alaska. Means ``The Great Land''. Winter's Gate -- The northernmost group in existance in the SCA. Border stretches from Hurricane Gulch in the Alaska Range, up to the North Pole, and from the Canadian Border to the last quarter inch of sand visible on the easternmost edge of Big Diomede Island in the USSR. We HAVE claimed right of conquest over the entire USSR -- and hope to hold the first East/West war in a generation midway between Oertha and Drachenwald. Earngyld -- (Formerly Shire of a Thousand Isles) Strong Viking tradition in the fjords of Southeast Alaska -- plus it's at the state capital. This, plus the myriad attendant shires is a subgroup called the Alexander Archipelago. Castle Hill -- One of the most prominent features of Sitka as you come in from the coast is an Old Russian cathedral -- which looks like a castle. Selveirgaard -- Don't rightly know. Possibly meaning ``Silver Guard'' Shire of the Lonely Isle -- Adak Naval Station. And it is VERY lonely. (Although never dull! Waking up to your Quonset hut floating in the wind like a kite is *NOT* dull.) Shire of Gateway -- Ketchikan. The first port of call for the Inland Passage ferry run. Makes the typical weather in An Tir look like the Gobi. (One fighter from there was rumoured to have gills) College of St. Boniface -- Several Bonifaces in the _Catalog of Saints_, I think the College is named after the one who died in the snows. Beast Valley -- Named after the abundant wildlife in that part of the Goldstream valley. Moose, Ducks, Geese and Bears. And Mosquitos. LOTS of Mosquitos. Iceholde -- The aborted shire started in Barrow. And to any Westerners, ask Duke Radnor to tell the tale about Iklutna some time. *grin* Thorfinn Halfblind From: djheydt at garnet.berkeley.edu Date: 24 May 91 03:58:24 GMT Organization: University of California, Berkeley Nobody (not even My Lord Husband, whom I would've expected to post it days ago) has yet mentioned the former shire occupying the same spatial coordinates as San Francisco, California. It was the Shire of St. Andrew's, and it had on its arms a saltire, or St. Andrew's Cross, fracted. St Andrew is English for San Andreas. The Shire had the motto "Non Est Culpa Nostra" (It's Not Our Fault). That Shire is now defunct and the current group occupying the same spatial coordinates is the Shire of Cloondara. I don't know what that means. But the Shire to the north of it, occuping the same spatial coordinates as Marin County, California, is the Shire of Caldarium (= a large tub suitable for bathing in). Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt Province of the Mists djheydt at garnet.berkeley.edu Principality of the Mists University of California, Kingdom of the West Berkeley From: dolata at lead.uazaic.arizona.edu (Dolata) Date: 24 May 91 19:08:40 GMT Organization: University of Arizona AI Chemistry Lab, Tucson, AZ Dearest Gentles, If you will graciously allow me to add one small tidbit to the discussion on places names; The College of St. Felix is embedded in the University of Arizona, whose mascot/symbol is the Wildcat. So we took the genus name for a cat, 'Felus', and looked to see if there was a St. Felix. Lo, and behold, there are 16 period St. Felixes. Some of my favorites are; St. Felix the Librarian - who was martyred for not letting Diocletion take a book from the library. St. Felix the Stupid - who was Sainted for the simplicity and purity of his life. St. Felix of Carthage - who was driven into the desert to die of thirst (which is VERY appropriate for Tucson) St. Felix the anti-pope - after 1200 years of Sainthood, they decided they had gotten it wrong, and that he was actually a tool of the devil. St. Felix the administratively lost - who lived about 200 CE, but of whom all record sans his Sanctification has been lost by the records office (next time the beaurocrats lose your records you know who to pray to!) Until my next missive, I remain, Yours in Service, Thomas Ignatius Perigrinus Minister of Arts and Sciences College of St. Felix From: storm at hlafdig.stonemarche.ORG (Arastorm the Golden) Date: 24 May 91 15:18:51 GMT Organization: The Internet The Barony of Stonemarche chose it's name only a few years ago, and it was chosen in response to a quest for what we had in common. Years before the State of New Hampshire had split into several SCA groups and we thought it would reduce paperwork and generally be profitable to be one group- but what did all of NH have in common? ROCKS! (Mundanely known as the Granite State) This has given us a theme for many fun bits of schtic (sp?) The invected border on the arms originally stood for the stone walls that border every road, our awards are called things like keystone, millstone, cornerstone, etc. with suggestions running rampant for kidneystones, and other silliness. Our tradition is to give each new Crown a rock- composition, size, velocity and trajectory to be determined as appropriate for each pair. So far the most impressive was the 1 "ko" rock we gave Ronald. Of course gifts of rocks could range from talc to diamond. We are working on a badge with a basalisk and cockatrice combattant. And I should not neglect to mention that our dearest enemies, the Weazelurds, refer to our fair Baroness Stonemarche as Tinhat Pebble-path. -- Arastorm the Golden ("hlafdig" is the Saxon spelling of "lady") (603)654-2601 or 654-5317 PO Box 43, So.Lyndeboro, NH 03082 -->storm%hlafdig at hern.stonemarche.org From: lawbkwn at BUACCA.BITNET (Yaakov HaMizrachi/HJFeld) Date: 27 May 91 16:19:16 GMT Organization: The Internet Naming stories: It has been my unfortunate experience to be involved with two groups that never completely took off. The first was at Princeton. I got involved with the SCA in my senior year, and they did a demo at Princeton. This generated enough interest to make it worthwhile to start a canton. The name we chose (originally suggested by Arval) was Carrillion Keep. As we were a canton of Carillion, the barony had started at Princeton, and Princeton looks vaguely fortress-like, it seemed appropriate. The other group was in Israel. I met a bunch of gamers who were very interested in the SCA, so I encouraged them to try to organize. The name they wanted was "Shlosh Dayot" which means three faiths. The device they wanted was cruisily, two crescents argent, chiefed azure, a star of david as the crescents. (Unfortunately, everyone was drafted or on reserves which made organization difficult.) In Service, Yaakov From: jprod at sagepub.COM (Journals Production Department) Date: 27 May 91 20:09:30 GMT Organization: Sage Publications, Inc., Newbury Park, CA Greetings from Sister Kate. I've been greatly enjoying the place name origin stories. The only one I can add is Grey Niche (Memphis), which I was told when I joined was named that because the events were usually rained on, making things generally *Rainish* (in Meridies, niche is pronounced nish). I speculate that it also has something to do with Memphis being in a corner, or niche, of Tennessee. Sister Kate Journals Production Department, Sage Publications, Inc. 2111 West Hillcrest Drive, Newbury Park, CA 91320 voice: (805) 499-0721 fax: (805) 499-0871 via Internet: jprod at sagepub.com From: GEDAV at INDSVAX1.BITNET Date: 30 May 91 04:37:00 GMT Greetings to all from Cerdic... The name of our group, Strikkenwoode, is a comment on the mundane city of Terre Haute. We have several beautiful parks, as well as a forest preserve, but we also have a very foul-smelling industrial park, which tends to kill off any vegitation around it. Our more widely known name "The Dirthole" comes from a time in which our shire fielded more fighters at a Rivenstar baronial fighter practice than did the Barony of Sternfeld. At that time, Duke Sir Palymar was prince, and he noted that "That incipient dirthole has more fighters than our barony!" The name just sort of stuck... -Lord Cerdic Blackmoore -GKMIT in Strikkenwoode, -Midrealm... From: chris at %griffon at mcc.oz (Chris Robertson) Date: 31 May 91 13:22:22 GMT Organization: Griffon Consulting Our Barony of Rowany here in Lochac was named after our Baroness, Viscountess Mistress Rowan Perigrynne, who was not only the founding Baroness, but was the driving force behind establishing Lochac in the first place. (She actually would have liked the Barony to be called "Maletur"...) St. Ursula (after whom the Sydney Univ. college is named) organised a Crusade of virgins -- at some point in history a scholar's copying mistake turned the modest number of virgins (who were all slaughtered on the way to the Holy Land) into 10,000 virgins... The traditional toast at the annual St. Ursula's dinner is to the virgins, counted by number... Yseult de Lacy Rowany Chronicler From: iborchar at physics.adelaide.edu.au (Lord Khaos) Date: 2 Jun 91 01:56:04 GMT Organization: Department of Physics, University of Adelaide, South Australia The College of Blessed Herman the Cripple obtained it's name from a TI article on the Saints of Winter. For some reason, unknown to us, the only name that consistently stuck in the reader's mind was "Blessed Herman the Cripple". No one could remember for more than a day the name of any actual saint listed in the article.... We all bowed to inevitability :-) . The College of Blessed Herman the Cripple is part of the Barony of Innilgard of the Principality of Lochac of the Kingdom of the West. Tako Jiro (Founder of the "Herman for Sainthood" drive) -- Ian Borchardt And in the next world, iborchar at physics.adelaide.edu.au I will kill the foe a thousand times, Medical Physicist Laughing, University of Adelaide/Royal Adelaide Hospital Undefeated. From: Dafydd Ap RhysRick Wallace Subj: SCA geography and group names. Date: 5 Jun 91 To add to the ongoing history of group names, I believe that the origin of The Citadel of the Southern Pass should be obvious. I find the name amusing though; the period name for El Paso ( El Paso did exist n period) was El Paso del Norte (The Pass of the North.) North, South, kind of depends on your point of view. Las Cruces, NM. is known as the Shire of Great River. The Rio Grande runs through Las Cruces. Yours in Service Dafydd ap Rhys From: Fum at coyote.cs.wmich.EDU Date: 8 Jun 91 22:31:27 GMT The Canton of the Three Hills was named for three Hills in Kalamazoo, MI. The first hill is the hill upon which Kalamazoo College, the birthplace of the canton, stands. The second hill is that upon which the main campus of Western Michigan University is found. The third Hill is that which holds the landmark tower which belongs to the Kalamazoo Regional Psyciatric Hospital. We believe that in our old age we all will go to the Third Hill. Our Patron Saint BTW is Saint Madeline, Our Lady Who Lives Above Us (a truely local legend) The Barony of Andelcrag got its name through a vote when the Barony was founded by splitting off from Northwoods. The name did indeed Come from PRINCE VALIENT where it was the last fortress to fall to the huns. The remaining defenders, mostly women, burned themselves along with the tower rather than surrender. When the Heralds didn't want us to use the name we began to call ourselves the Backwards Barony of Garcledna (spell it backwards!), a name which we still use for our nearly annual Pirate Event. We also began to use as many alternate spellings as possible. Eventually the Heralds tired of us and let us Use Andelcrag. Fron Three Hills in the outh to The Northern Highlands the baron consists of a 9-10 hour drive with groups up the coast of the lower penninsula of michigan and in the Upper Penninsula at Houghton/Hancock. Though not heavily Populated it is a large Barony indeed. The canton of Rimshold (sorry, Rimsholt) was named from its place once long ago upon the northern rim of Andelcrag. Now it is in the center of the Barony. (some habe, in jest, called it Rim-shot) Ritter Baron Karl Aerdigwidder von Zauberberg Baron von Andelcrag Canton of the Three Hills Barony of Andelcrag, Middle Kingdom From: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) Date: 5 Aug 91 16:32:12 GMT Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research Michael the Bard asks: > Where did the name An-tir come from, and what does it mean. It is Irish, and means "The Land." And, while we're at it: West: obvious East: obvious. Middle: obvious. Some of the Midrealm's armory relates to it's "persona" as "The Middle Kingdom", i.e., China. Atenveldt: Aten = Egyptian sun god. Veldt = Dutch/Afrikaans for "grassland, plain". Meridies: Latin, "south". Caid: Acronym of the four original baronies, Calafia, Angels, Isles, Dreibergen. Also said to be the Arabic word for "fortress." Ansteorra: Old English, "One Star" (Texas, of course) Calontir: Welsh (or is it Irish?), "heart land". Atlantia: Reference to the Atlantic Ocean. An Tir: Irish, "the land" Trimaris: Latin "three seas." Outlands: obvious =========================================================================== Arval Benicoeur, Brigantia Principal Herald Josh Mittleman ...but only for another 4 months, 4 weeks, and 2 days 50 Croton Ave. 1F mittle at watson.ibm.com or joshua at paul.rutgers.edu Ossining, NY 10562 From: duncan at rti.rti.org (Stephen Duncan) Date: 21 Oct 91 18:49:44 GMT Organization: Research Triangle Institute, RTP, NC (cerebrum meum dolet) writes: >Jeremy de Merstone greets the folk of the Rialto and responds to this >from Brand the Black: > >(B) "Ealdormere" is better translated as "life-lake", or "noble-lake" or > "lord-lake". > > Jeremy de Merstone George J Perkins perkins at msupa.pa.msu.edu Part of any translation is to get across a proper feeling for the term as well its meaning. Perhaps instead of life-lake, we should consider life-water, finally arriving at water-of-life: Aqua Vitae. The Irish word for this comes into English as "whisky". Steve Duncan duncan at rti.rti.org From: perkins at msupa.pa.msu.EDU (cerebrum meum dolet) Date: 20 Oct 91 03:43:28 GMT Jeremy de Merstone greets the folk of the Rialto and responds to this from Brand the Black: > Well, for latinizing Ealdormere, I was either thinking of something like > Ealdormerus (bad latin, I know, but I'm just a herald...), or getting the > latin for Old Waters (which is what Ealdormere means). This seems to be a response to something earlier, but as I, too, have been plagued recently by missing Digests, I don't recognize it; its substance, though, is plain enough, so I will comment. (A) "Ealdormere" is reasonable medieval Latin as it stands -- decline it as you would "mare"; there are analogous usages in the _Revised_Medieval_ Latin_Word-List_from_British_and_Irish_Sources_ (ed. R. E. Latham, 1989 printing, with Supplement; London, Oxford University Press) -- "mere" is a variant of "mare" (sea, lake, marsh), especially in placenames (found in places in the Domesday Book); it is also found as "mara", "marum" or "maria" [p. 290], so those endings might be chosen, also. The Anglo-Saxon "ealdorman(n)"=="Earl, nobleman, leader" is found in 11th and 12th C. texts as "ealdormannus", "aldormannus", "aldermannus" and "aldremannus". [pp. 13 & 160] It's by no means Classical Latin, but we're not in the SCA to emulate Imperial Rome. (B) "Ealdormere" is better translated as "life-lake", or "noble-lake" or "lord-lake". "Old" is "eald"; "ealdor" means "life" (as a neuter noun) or "chief, prince, lord" (as a masculine noun), and compound words, such as "ealdor-bealu"=="mortal injury", "ealdor-dagas"==days of one's life", "ealdor-gewinna"=="mortal enemy", "ealdor-leas"== "lacking a lord", etc., all reflect one of these meanings; granted, they are *related* to "eald"=="old", but do have independent existence. [p. 7 of _Word-Hoard_:_An_Introduction_to_Old_English_Vocabulary_ by Stephen A. Barney, New Haven & London, Yale University Press, 1977; pp. 319-320 & 373 of the 3rd Edition of Fr. Klaeber's edition of _Beowulf_, Lexington, MA, D. C. Heath & Company, 1950; and pp. 321-322 & 358 of the 15th Edition of _Sweet's_Anglo-Saxon_Reader_, revised by Dorothy Whitelock, Oxford University Press, 1967] So, a classical Latin translation would be something like "Lacus Vitalis" or "Lacus Vividus" for the "giving life, lively" connotation, or "Lacus Nobilis", "Lacus Principalis" or "Lacus Gentilis" for the "chief, lord" meaning. I think I like "Ealdormere" or "Ealdormare" better -- it feels more medieval (just use the right endings). --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jeremy de Merstone George J Perkins perkins at msupa.pa.msu.edu North Woods, MidRealm East Lansing, MI perkins at msupa (Bitnet) --------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) Date: 18 Nov 91 19:31:09 GMT Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research Greetings from Arval! jester at gacvx1.gac.edu asks for advice and assistance on choosing a name from a new branch. The best single piece of advice I can give you is to choose a place name, i.e., something that looks like the name of a real place. Too many SCA branches have saddled themselves with names that have nothing to do with reality, modern or historical. SCA place names should be formed in manner of medieval place names. Nearly all place names, in all languages, contain a geographic term (town, hill, vale, chester, etc.), with some kind of modifying element. Master Steffan's classic example is this: In the SCA, we might have a Shire of the Swimming Pigs. In the Middle Ages, they would have had Swinefordshire. Which sounds better? If your group is located in the vicinity of a windy hill, then "Windhill" would be a perfectly fine place name. Since it lies on a hill overlooking a river, you might call it "Riverhill". Remember that once you choose the group name, you are probably never going to change it. Something fanciful and fantastical that appeals to you now may become rather annoying after a few years, when you decide that you'd really prefer a name that fits into the medieval atmosphere better - I've seen it happen many times. Best to start with something that is more medieval, and perhaps a little less imaginative, and know that the group will always be happy with it, come what may. Choosing a name in Gaelic, or some other difficult language, is perfectly reasonable, but you should be aware that no one is going to be able to pronounce it, and the group will forever have to deal with that problem. If a group has a wide range of personae, then I generally recommend sticking with something easy to remember, understand, and pronounce: English. Whatever language you choose, the first step is to look at medieval maps or histories, and see how place names were constructed there in the Middle Ages. Build your name to fit one of the patterns you find. SCA place names last a long time, and get used by many people. It's worth a little extra effort to ensure that they are reasonably authentic. If you have any specific questions, please do not hesitate to contact me directly. Arval. =========================================================================== Arval Benicoeur, Brigantia Principal Herald Josh Mittleman ...but only for another 1 month, 2 weeks, and 3 days 156 Grand St. mittle at watson.ibm.com Croton, NY 10520 From: Elwyn Halfmoon Subj: SCA Geography Source? Date: 27 Nov 91 > From: andrew at bransle.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew Draskoy) > Date: 25 Nov 91 21:10:23 GMT > Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland > -- Sandorfia Miklos, Ar n-Eilean-ne, East > Ansteorra (TX and OK) > Barony of Namron (Norman, OK) > Barony of the Steppes (Dallas, TX) > Barony of Stargate (Houston, TX) > Shire of Shadowlands (College Station, TX) > Shire of Bjornsborg (San Antonio, TX) SHIRE of Bjornsborg?!?!?!?!?!!!!!!!! We've been a barony for at least a decade, or so I've heard. Order of Creation of the Baronies Stargate Steppes Bjornsborg Bordermarch Bryn Gwlad Namron Eldern Hills Raven's Fort Elfsea Wiesenfeurer Loch Soilleir I would have replied via netmail except for your reference to Bjornsborg as a barony. :P Elwyn Halfmoon BARONY of Bjornsborg, Ansteorra Date: 22 Jan 92 From: hwt at bwdlh490.BNR.CA (Henry Troup) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd. Elder-mere. Stress is equal on the first two syllables. The odd spelling and pronunciation Eld-owe-mere (Eldomere) is a bizarre and incorrect mutation, IMHO. For three trivia points: what were the three names on the ballot? (Ealdormere, Loganmor, and something I can't remember) The argument against Loganmor (big lake) was that the collective form would be Loganmorons... Ealdormere means old lake, and derives from the same anglosaxon (OE) word that gave us alderman. Hen