SCA-hist3-msg - 1/28/12

Messages on the history of the SCA from 9/1994 to 12/2000.

NOTE: See also the files: SCA-hist1-msg, SCA-hist2-msg, SCA-stories1-msg, SCA-romance-msg, Hst-SCA-Fence-art, you-know-msg, SCA-in-books-msg.

************************************************************************
NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

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Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************

"History is a moving target that changes as fresh details are discovered, as errors are corrected, as popular attitudes shift.  Historians carve the sculpture that is Truth not out of granite, but out of wet clay."

-   From the preface to "The Life of Muad'Dib" in the Dune series.
-----

From: mchance at crl.com (Michael A. Chance)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Freon Can Helms
Date: 10 Sep 1994 15:59:01 -0700

Jost wrote:
>Recently, responding to Bertram, you wrote:

>> I _still_ own a freon can helm. I lend it out to people without helms, though
>> we almost have enough helms that new fighters don't get to wear it anymore.

>Freon can helms are still legal on the field in Caid?  They aren't legal in
>Atlantia or even Meridies (which hits and takes _real_ light).

Unless I've missed something _really_ big, it's been nearly a decade
since freon can helms (even reinforced ones) were legal _anywhere_ in
the SCA.  I'd just started fighting (in AS 17) about the time they
banned helms made from old US Army helmets and un-reinforced freon
cans, and it was about a year or so later that the ban on _any_ type
of helm based on a freon can was imposed.

Mikjal Annarbjorn
-- 
Michael A. Chance          St. Louis, Missouri, USA    "At play in the fields
Work: mc307a at sw1stc.sbc.com                             of St. Vidicon"
Play: mchance at crl.com
      mchance at nyx.cs.du.edu


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Subject: Re: Freon Can Helms
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 04:30:50 GMT

"Firstly, Freon cans varied a lot in thickness depending on their
date  of manufacture" (Sebastian)

Indeed. For many years I fought in a helm made from a freon tank
dating from before they switched to disposables. It was the thickest,
and heaviest, helm I have ever owned, and I am confident that, so far
as thickness is concerned, it would still be legal. I lent it out,
years ago, to some new people who were short of armor, and am not
sure what became of it. I am told that Jon the Lean, who made it (c.
A.S. 5?), tested one of the others of the series by shooting it with
a .32, with no effect.

David/Cariadoc


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: John, R., Edgerton <sirjon at sns.com>
Subject: Re: Freon Can Helms
Keywords: freon, armor, helms
Organization: Systems'n'Software, Fremont, CA  94539-6669
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 94 07:28:06 PDT

donnn at freenet3.scri.fsu.edu (Donn Nieder) writes:

> david director friedman (ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu) wrote:
> 
> : Indeed. For many years I fought in a helm made from a freon tank
> : dating from before they switched to disposables. It was the thickest,
> : and heaviest, helm I have ever owned, and I am confident that, so far
> : as thickness is concerned, it would still be legal. I lent it out,
> : years ago, to some new people who were short of armor, and am not
> : sure what became of it. I am told that Jon the Lean, who made it (c.
> : A.S. 5?), tested one of the others of the series by shooting it with
> : a .32, with no effect.
> 
> I'm afraid that holding up under the effect of a .32 would not
> necessarily give me great confidence in a helm's ability to protect my
> head.  People (without armor) often get shot with .32s with little or no
> effect. :)
> 
> Giovanni
> -- 
> ------------------------------------------------
> Internet: donnn at freenet.tlh.fl.us
> Lord Giovanni di Rienzi           Donn Nieder
> Oldenfeld, Trimaris               Tallahassee FL

********************

        The early freon can helms, made from the non disposalable 
drums, were about 10 or 12 guage.  There is still one in use in 
the West at a weekly fighter practice as a loner for new fighters
(who get hit in the head a lot).  The last I heard it had still 
taken no damage except to the bar grill.
        A early heavy drum had also been tested with a heavy 
railroad spike hammer( rather like a war hammer) which was swung 
two handed by Duke Henrick of Havn, the helm was sitting on the 
pavement.  The only damage was a slight dent less than a quarter 
inch deep.
        However, the later disposable drums are to thin to make 
safe helms.

Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf (called the Lean)    John R. Edgerton
Esfenn, Mist, West                     Newark, California

----
sirjon at sns.com  (John, R., Edgerton)
Systems'n'Software 
(510)623-8656 FAX (510)623-8652 DATA


From: sandradodd at aol.com (SandraDodd)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: A question about knights
Date: 3 Oct 1994 14:57:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)

In article <780902893.AA01471 at jina.rain.com>,
Suze.Hammond at f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Suze Hammond) writes [about whether
knights ought to be required to know how to ride horses]: 
<<Although it might be a bit stiff as a requirement, I think it would do a
lot for our general sense of medievality if many of them at least tried
it.>>

A dozen years or so ago, there was a major Corpora revision.  In its draft
form, one of the requirements of knighthood was familiarity with horses,
riding, etc.  I don't recall its having been expert horsemanship, but just
knowledge of...    The rule was proposed/written by knights in the West
who did/could ride horses, and shot down vehemently by knights in the East
who couldn't/didn't/didn't want to try.  

Sometimes I wish there were several smaller re-enactment groups scattered
all around, and some had "knighthood" for rapier fighting, and some had no
rapier fighting at all, and some required knights to ride horses, and some
didn't require that knights had ever seen a live horse, and that there was
just the perfect club for every taste and that I wasn't involved in the
administration of any of them.  We would all be so happy!

AElflaed


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Peers as Members (was Re: Obligations of Peerage?)
Date: 1 Nov 1994 17:41:59 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

[Hal posting from Dorothy's account...]
In article <393cmh$qh5 at nyx10.cs.du.edu>,
Mark A. Cochran <mcochran at nyx10.cs.du.edu> wrote:
>djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>->[Hal posting from Dorothy's account...]
>->Try another few consequences of such an alternate (SCA)
>->history....
>->
>->The Order of the Pelican would not exist.
>->
>Why not?

In the beginning...  The Chivalry was for fighting and the Laurel
was for all else (including service).  At the time, the Board of
Directors had delusions of grandeur, styling itself (for a time)
as "the Imperial Electors" and using vert, a laurel wreath or for
corporate arms (this is a counterchange of the West kingdom minus
the crown).  The various kingdoms weren't giving Peerages to
those whose work was pretty much exclusively for corporate
activities--in part and in some cases simply because doing the
work isn't the *only* criterion for recognition.  The Board of
the time being a bit miffed about this created a new Peerage-level
award (the Order of the Pelican) to recognize those working for
the corporation.

Much trouble brewed up over this....

In the end, the Board quit giving awards at all and "released"
the Pelican to the kingdoms.

Had the initial structure of the corporation being simply an
interface between the medieval and modern worlds been kept, the
Board would never have tried this stunt and the Pelican wouldn't
have been created.

	--Hal Ravn
	 (Hal Heydt)


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Peers as Members (was Re: Obligations of Peerage?)
Date: 31 Oct 1994 03:10:31 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

In article <38mh8u$blv at ankh.iia.org>, Leah Jolovich <jolovicl at iia.org> wrote:
>Kevin Davis Connery (keradwc at rahul.net) wrote:
>
>: 2: I was hoping for a culture which held some validity to the ideas and
>:    structures of various medieval and/or renaissance ones, rather than a
>:    modern subculture, fashioned along modern lines; had I sought out a
>:    group which meant to invent their own traditions, I could far more
>:    readily join a fantasy roleplaying group.
>
>The SCA was never intended to be a fantasy group, but I am sure there are 
>numerous fantasy groups out there. 

That's not strictly true.  There were major fantasy elements in
the Society in its earliest days.  An early (and long time)
Chancellor of the Excehquer of the West was Sir Robert of
Dunharrow.  The original form of Jon de Cles' (the first Steward)--A
winged camel--had *biplane* wings.

All that pretty much worked its way out within the first 5 years
or so, but it *did* exist.

>I see by your .sig that you have Santa 
>Clara, CA. If this is indeed where you are looking for fantasy groups in 
>the vicinity of, then I ask anyone here on the Rialto with information on 
>such groups in that area to please send what information they have on 
>them to Mr. Connery.

Best advice I can provide is for Mr. Connery to go to DunDraCon
over President's Day weekend in February in San Ramon.
Information is available from:

	DunDraCon, Inc.
	1145 Talbot Ave.
	Albany, CA 19706

		--Hal Ravn
	 	 (Hal Heydt)


From: sandradodd at aol.com (SandraDodd)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: definition of college
Date: 25 Oct 1994 18:55:05 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)

In article <9410240937.aa07495 at mc.lcs.mit.edu>, MPER9946 at uriacc.uri.EDU
writes:<<I've looked in corpora and I'm still slightly  confused.  I
always thought, and was always told that the two were essentially  the
same but that a college could go dormant for lack of members or officers
without being dissolved.  Is this true? >>

Original intent, correct (Bevin Fraser was Steward, there were five
kingdoms, and she borrowed my proposed definition for the original
definition).  Some kingdoms have defined a college as a type of canton
(i.e., subsidiary to a barony), but we have on in the Outlands which is on
the level of a shire, in a college town in which it is the sole SCA group.
 Colleges were defined as groups which could have off seasons (like
summer, when school's out) and also (originally) which were not expected
to necessarily have a well-rounded set of activities, the thinking being
that a military school might not have much arts, a music school might not
have much fighting, etc.  They were generally to be allowed to specialize
and to fall dormant and pick up again when school started again.

I don't know about current references.  You should definitely check with
your kingdom seneschal or Duchess Sedalia for that.

AElflaed of Duckford (Outlands)


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: MidRealm Newsletter
Date: 16 Nov 1994 17:58:20 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

[Hal posting from Dorothy's account...]
In article <3a4aq4$p05 at vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
F.L. Watkins <folo at prairienet.org> wrote:
>I remember the very fannish early TIs and PALEs (dittoed in those
>days). 

I don't know about the _Pale_, but _TI_ was never done on ditto.
It was mimeograph all the way.

At the 25th year Beltane, the daily notices were printed up on
site using ditto.

For those who really want to use obscure reproduction techniques,
go research hectograph--and why it was the favorite of
underground organizations in WW-II.

	--Hal Ravn
	 (Hal Heydt)


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: locksley at indirect.com (Joe Bethancourt)
Subject: Re: Crowns, Coronets, & Law
Organization: Internet Direct, indirect.com
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 15:33:22 GMT

SandraDodd (sandradodd at aol.com) wrote:
: Other people said:

: <<>You mean modern things like it being okay for any woman <adult> being 
: >allowed to fight, and to be named a knight, etc?

: <<Documented medieval practice, though admittedly unusual.  Given the
: number of prominent women fighters and knights in the SCA, I don't
: think that our re-creation is that out of line (although an entirely
: seperate debate could be held on why this is so).>>

: They didn't allow it on the basis of its being period.  They allowed it
: because (I understand, it was somewhat before my time) they were
: threatened with a discrimination lawsuit if they didn't.   Lawsuits are
: period.  <g>

Nope. It was allowed because Mistress (Sir) Trude Lacklandia proved it 
was period.

(Since I was the LSoA that did it....I guess I should know. And I had told
Trude specifically that I would -not- do it under any threat of lawsuit,
equal rights stuff or the like.....and she agreed with me.)

--
locksley at indirect.com           PO Box 35190        Locksley Plot Systems
White Tree Productions      Phoenix, AZ 85069 USA         CyberMongol Ltd


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: cloven fruit?
From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 94 08:56:59 EST

Dorian_Davis at equinox.gen.nz (Yoshitoshi) writes:

> Michael Josef Lindberg (lindberg at oregon.uoregon.edu) wrote:
> : I was just wondering if anybody could tell me of the history and origins
> : of cloven fruit.  I'm doing a folklore project on it and would like to know
> : if customs in other kingdoms are different than those here in An-Tir.  Also
> : any variations would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> : Thanx
> : Cynric
> 
> As I understand it, the cloven fruit is a wholely 100% SCA invention. If, as
> sometimes happens, an Autocrat has forgotten to pack lemons for an event
> (shame), you can always use a Zen lemon instead!!! :)
> 
> Matsuyama Yoshitoshi
> <who really likes the taste of cloves, and uses the oil to clean his blades>
> Shire of the Southron Gaard, Caid.
	Respected friends:
	It's not only an SCA invention, I believe I invented it. (or 
re-invented it, since some westerners believe they ran across them in '72.)
I was looking for a kissing-game (Ah, the innocent days when pennicillin
cured _everything_) other than the then ubiquitous carol-dance "Prinkum
Prankum". My research turned up some good, authentic games that would not
have suited my group (In one, you had to make up a poem on the spot to earn 
your kiss. Can you say "Doggerel"? I thought you could... }:->  )
	Anyway, I finally found a reference to French swains giving pomanders
to their ladyloves, as a symbol of both sweetness and purity. (I was so green 
in those days, if I'd stood still too long I'd have taken root. Try to be 
kind, okay?)
	Well, `everybody knew' a pomander was a lemon with cloves stuck in it,
right? So I made a "pomander" and a snatch of truly dreadful music to introduce 
it with, and it was the hit of the event.
	This happened in the summer of either '73 or '74- in either case, my
Sci-Fi-fan older sister imported it to fandom- possibly before it actually
was used at my event, as we'd been discussing it for weeks. 
	By the time I got leave from Japan in the spring of '75 it had already
mutated to include the bite-a-clove variant. By the time of my discharge in
'76, there were clove (fill in the blank) crawling out of the woodwork...
	The rest isn't exactly history, but it is "Customary and Traditional"
(stifles gagging)... and is one of the things in my life I'd go back and
change if I could. Even forty versions of "There was a young lass from the
Towers..." would have been worth it, in the long run.
	Sigh... The things we live to regret...

Yrs in service (and embarrassment)
Una Wicca (that pict) 

(Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk R.S.F. 
Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf C.O.L. SCA


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Cloven fruit!?!%!
From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 94 07:28:22 EST

wlinden at panix.com (Will Linden) writes:

> In <17446.303.uupcb at 7thwave.com> bettina.helms at 7thwave.com (Bettina Helms)  w
> 
> >KE>From: Kelly.Coco at mvs.udel.EDU
> >KE>Subject: Cloven fruit!?!%!
> 
> >KE>      I too would like to know the origins of this insidious :-) practice
> 
> >The cloved lemon was introduced to the SCA by Mistress Alizaunde de
> >Breguef (who back then did not even have an AoA), at a Canton of the
> >Towers (East Kingdom) event in February of AS 8(?). She meant it as a
> >--Katja Hjalmarsdottir
> >who wasn't in the SCA when cloved lemons were introduced, but who
> >heard the story from Alizaunde herself.
>   ...and Lisa Goldenstar told me it was _her_. Sigh...
	Respected friends:
	Lisa helped do the research, helped make the original clove lemon 
used, and participated as fully in the fun as any of us there. If she really 
wants the "credit" for this particular SCAbomination, I'll be perfectly 
willing to demote myself to the less guilt-ridden status of co-conspiritor.
She is certainly as guilty as my sister for seeing it didn't die a natural 
death after that one event. (Me, I ran off to the Army- as thousands of other
folk who did something dumb at home have done before me...)

(Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk R.S.F. 
Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf C.O.L. SCA


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA Authors <long>
Date: 15 Dec 1994 20:41:34 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

[Hal posting from Dorothy's account...]
In article <Pine.3.89.9412141903.A847-0100000 at mail>,
kroussea <kroussea at mail.cc.trincoll.EDU> wrote:
>A glaring omission from this list is Katherine Kurtz!
>
>The last peice of information I have is that someone once told me that 
>Katherine is a former Steward.  I'm sure there are records (and 
>oldtimers) who could verify this.

Yup.  Also former Seneschal of the Principality of Caid and former
Princess of Caid (which makes her part of the Grey and Faceless
Legion of Western Viscounts).

	--Hal Ravn
	 (Hal Heydt)


From: Kim.Salazar at em.doe.GOV
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: "Don" - usage for Knight, AS XII
Date: 18 Jan 1995 14:58:23 -0500
Organization: The Internet

     Gentles,
     
     As an aside, my lord husband, Don Fernando Salazar y Perez, Count and 
     Knight began using "Don" when he was knighted in AS XII.  Being of 
     Spanish persona, he much prefers that title to any other. 
     
     We have been in retirement for a very long time, and the thought that 
     he may find people objecting to that usage now is very distressing.
     
     At least one very accomplished Carolingian Lady of Spanish persona 
     (whom I admire greatly) has been using "Dona" since she attained that 
     rank circa AS-single-digits.
     
     
     -Ianthe d'Averoigne, OR, OL               kim.salazar at em.doe.gov
     Forever a Carolingian


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Untrained and Dangerous
Date: 11 Jan 1995 19:16:20 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

[Hal posting from Dorothy's account...]
In article <ab2cef26 at nudity.uucp>, David W. James <vnend at nudity.UUCP> wrote:
>	And the requirement for authorization is only about ten or twelve
>years old.  Lots of us were fighting without authorizing, in all kingdoms.

Formal authorization fights were taking place in the West at
least as far back as 1970.  There just wasn't any paperwork
associated with the process.

	--Hal Ravn
	 (Hal Heydt)


From: fholland at ix.netcom.com (Frank Holland)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: "Sir" vs. "Dame" ???
Date: 17 Mar 1995 07:45:20 GMT
Organization: Netcom

In <D5IAH8.Eun at serval.net.wsu.edu> i9253209 at unicorn.it.wsu.edu (Joseph 
Erhard-Hudson) writes: 

>I gather that most female knights use the appelation "sir".  It is 
>my understanding that "dame" is the equivalent mundane title for a 
>woman who has entered an order of knighthood.  Why is this title not 
>used in the sca?  I'm sure the knights in question have their good 
>reasons, I'm simply curious what they are.
>
>Is it because the title is OOP?
>Did female knights of period use either title?
>Do the worthy knights of today simply like "sir" better?
>
>Sorry if this has all been hashed out before.
>--
>Joseph Erhard-Hudson
>i9253209 at wsunix.wsu.edu

According to legend, Sir Trudy started it with that (in)famous line, 
"ain't NOBODY gonna call ME a DAME!!!!

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mindrakken van der Zilver (aka Frank Holland)
Barony of Caerthe, The Outlands (aka Denver CO)
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: axv0015 at vaxb.isc.rit.edu (Andrew Veter)
Subject: Children at Events
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 1995 02:59:18 GMT

Dear Gentle, 

	When I joined the Society at age 8, in 1978, the age of majority for
girls was 12 and for boys it was 14.  I myself received my A.O.A. at the age of
11 and felt I was quite the grown-up lady.  These age limits meant that a
person could fight or be fought for at the stated ages.

	The limits were changed in 1982.  At that time, it was not required
that a parent or legal guardian accompany a child to an event. It was quite
common to have kids going to events with an aunt, an uncle , or a friend of the
family. [Pennsic comes to mind here, although I realize that a parent must
accompany children to all events.]

	Now, imagine that you are 12, Queen of your kingdom, and going to
events with a friend of your parents.  All this event-going has effected your
grades and your parents have grounded you--no events for one month.  It would
cause many problems for the kingdom if a royal were confined to their room and
could not attend say Crown Tourney.

	My point is that we have to take mundane life into consideration and
can not always do things as they would have been done in period. 
                                  	
	Be glad that this is the case--you wouldn't want your parents to marry
you off to some old man you'd never met before, just so they could increase
their lands!

			    Respectfully submitted by,

		            Lady Amanda of Kirksby Lonsdale, ctc QOC
                            Barony of Thescorre, East Kingdom 

mka Suzanne Lonsdale
Written on Viscount Sir Ariel's account.


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Info Medieval Cities?
Date: 23 Mar 1995 17:35:58 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

In article <3krf7p$s9t$1 at canberra.dialix.oz.au>,
Paul Sleigh <fruitbat at canberra.DIALix.oz.au> wrote:
>Just tuned in half way through so I may be getting this wrong, but...
>The Shire of Politarchopolis (Canberra, Australia) tried to advance from 
>Shire to Chartered Town.  We got a charter together, elected a Lord and 
>Lady Mayor, everything _seemed_ fine, but some twonk in the Central West 
>or the BoD stuffed up and let beaurocrasy and their own incompetence get 
>in the way.  

That's a biased view, and only partly correct.  The Charter was
sent to the Kingdom Seneschal, who was delayed getting it back
for corrections (there were some parts that badly needed changing
to fit into the SCA structure) mostly due to the Board blow-up at
the time.  Also due to the same Board problems, the was wasn't
about to approve a new branch type.  *That* "problem" may still
exist, by the way.  In any case, the Chartered Town idea was
never run by the Board at all.

As a philosophical point, I don't know which would be best for
getting something like this through the Board.  One the one hand,
saying "this is what we're trying to do, please approve this form
of branch" presents an immediacy to act.  On the other hand,
writing up a thurough case for Chartered Cities based on Medieval
models and petitioning the Board to approve the idea without a
specific instance in mind feels like a better way to run the
Society.  I'd appreciate comments from Board members (and I hold
that disclaimers are implied) on which way people should jump on
issues like this.

	--Hal Ravn
	 (Hal Heydt)


From: justin at dsd.camb.inmet.COM (Mark Waks)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Shires and Baronies -- the original definitions -- LONG
Date: 28 Mar 1995 17:07:56 -0500
Organization: The Internet

Akimoya(-dono) replies to me:

>>The following (below my signature) is from the original Corpora of the
>>Society, and is Copyright 1972. It is, I believe, the first official
>
>I thought that there was a *1969* version, which I believe Master Cathal 
>mentioned he had.  I could be wrong, though.

Yes and no; you're misunderstanding how these things originally worked.
Corpora was not originally the unitary document it is today; instead,
it was arranged as a collection of decisions and precedents, much as
our current Governing and Policy Decisions are.

The thing that dates from 1969 is the original ByLaws, which are also
in my collection. (As are the first several years' worth of
amendments.) However, Corpora was issued in annual "volumes", as the
decisions were handed down. The above description of group structures
(which appears to be the first clear word on the subject) was decided
in 1972, and appears in Corpora Volume 2. (Actually, now that I check
it, the copyright is 1973, the year after the decision itself, which
makes sense.)

I have Corpora up through Volume 4 on my desk, although I've only
gotten around to typing in through Volume 2. One of these days, I'll
finish the job. (Although most of the really interesting stuff is in
the first two volumes -- volume 3 manages to spend literally over 20
pages describing the policies for appointment, removal, and suspension
of officers in ludicrous detail...)

                                -- Justin


From: ioseph at primenet.com (Joe Bethancourt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: REALLY REALLY old timers needed
Date: 4 Apr 1995 22:09:14 GMT
Organization: Primenet

Rebecca LeDock (ral at netcom.com) wrote:
: If you were in the SCA prior to A.S. 7 and can give me answer to where 
: the phrase that the SCA "re-creates the Middle Ages as they were and 
: should have been" originated, I would appreciate it.  If you became a 
: member post A.S. 7 and know, that works, too.  The crucial part is that I 
: joined in A.S. 6, became an officer in A.S. 7, and remember seeing this 
: is some "official" capacity.  Since I have, over the years, served many 
: offices of the SCA, I can give you no hint what it was in, just that it 
: came in the mail from outside Meridies and would have been in some 
: kingdom handbook, the Corpora, incorporation papers, something "official",

: And now I can't remember where and it's driving my brain crazy.

"Handbook of the Current Middle Ages." The same place where it said our
period ends at 1650 .........

 ioseph at primenet.com            PO Box 35190          Locksley Plot Systems
 White Tree Productions       Phoenix, AZ 85069             CyberMongol Ltd
(who joined in AS 2)


From: mchance at crl.com (Michael A. Chance)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: REALLY REALLY old timers needed
Date: 6 Apr 1995 12:44:50 -0700
Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access

Arval d'Espas Nord writes:

>Greetings from Arval!  Ioseph reported:

>> : If you were in the SCA prior to A.S. 7 and can give me answer to where
>> : the phrase that the SCA "re-creates the Middle Ages as they were and
>> : should have been" originated, I would appreciate it.
>>
>> "Handbook of the Current Middle Ages." The same place where it said our
>> period ends at 1650 .........

>That's one that I haven't seen.  What was that handbook?  Who wrote it?
>Did it have any official standing (like Corpora) or not (like the Known
>World Handbook)?

For shame, Arval, you've been neglecting your East Kingdom history!
This is the famous book on which all of the Eastern Rite kingdoms are
founded, and is why Duke Cariadoc refers to them as "people of the
Book" vs. the Western Rite's "people of the Word".  It's the original
"Known World Handboke".

Perhaps it's time for a refresher course.  Anyone who was there want
to fill in the details?

Mikjal Annarbjorn
-- 
Michael A. Chance          St. Louis, Missouri, USA    "At play in the fields
Work: mc307a at sw1stc.sbc.com                             of St. Vidicon"
Play: mchance at crl.com


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ral at netcom.com (Rebecca LeDock)
Subject: Re: REALLY REALLY old timers needed
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 23:48:41 GMT

Michael A. Chance (mchance at crl.com) wrote:
: Arval d'Espas Nord writes:

: >Greetings from Arval!  Ioseph reported:

: >> : If you were in the SCA prior to A.S. 7 and can give me answer to where
: >> : the phrase that the SCA "re-creates the Middle Ages as they were and
: >> : should have been" originated, I would appreciate it.
: >>
: >> "Handbook of the Current Middle Ages." The same place where it said our
: >> period ends at 1650 .........

: >That's one that I haven't seen.  What was that handbook?  Who wrote it?
: >Did it have any official standing (like Corpora) or not (like the Known
: >World Handbook)?

: For shame, Arval, you've been neglecting your East Kingdom history!
: This is the famous book on which all of the Eastern Rite kingdoms are
: founded, and is why Duke Cariadoc refers to them as "people of the
: Book" vs. the Western Rite's "people of the Word".  It's the original
: "Known World Handboke".

: Perhaps it's time for a refresher course.  Anyone who was there want
: to fill in the details?

: Mikjal Annarbjorn
: -- 
: Michael A. Chance          St. Louis, Missouri, USA    "At play in the fields
: Work: mc307a at sw1stc.sbc.com                             of St. Vidicon"
: Play: mchance at crl.com

 Corpora?  I attend my first SCA event in April of '72, paid money in 
September (member # 1353, thank you), and NEVER heard of anyone in 
Meridies with a Corpora prior to '76.  So whatever people wrote down from 
earlier kingdoms, we had to believe.

I mean, we were lucky to get newsletters back then.  Why do you think 
people subscribed to the BOD minutes?  It was one of the few things that 
did come in the mail!

Rebecca of Twywn


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: REALLY REALLY old timers needed
Date: 8 Apr 1995 04:22:28 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

In article <3m1gbi$fc0 at crl.crl.com>, Michael A. Chance <mchance at crl.com> wrote:
>Arval d'Espas Nord writes:
>For shame, Arval, you've been neglecting your East Kingdom history!
>This is the famous book on which all of the Eastern Rite kingdoms are
>founded, and is why Duke Cariadoc refers to them as "people of the
>Book" vs. the Western Rite's "people of the Word".  It's the original
>"Known World Handboke".

If believe that characterization is from Hilary of Serendip.

>Perhaps it's time for a refresher course.  Anyone who was there want
>to fill in the details?

The short form is that the document in question was written for
the demo given at the Worldcon held at the Claremont Hotel in
Berkeley in 1969.  Fen attending the 'con took the handout home
with them and the East and Middle kingdoms were the result.
Unfortunately, what was written about what the Society was doing
varied considerably from actual practice (sound familiar?).

	--Hal Ravn
	 (Hal Heydt)


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Subject: Re: REALLY REALLY old timers needed
Organization: The University of Chicago
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 04:19:03 GMT

"This is the famous book on which all of the Eastern Rite kingdoms
are founded, and is why Duke Cariadoc refers to them as "people of
the Book" vs. the Western Rite's "people of the Word".  It's the
original "Known World Handboke". (Mikjal Annarbjorn)

A good line, but not mine, alas. Si non e vero, e ben trovato.

I cannot speak for the East Kingdom, since it was several years old
when I moved there. But when the Middle was being started, the Known
World Handbook was a major source for what we knew about the SCA.

David/Cariadoc


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: REALLY REALLY old timers needed
Date: 12 Apr 1995 14:41:55 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

[Hal posting from Dorothy's account...]
In article <3mfsh1$hrp at ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
Frank Holland <fholland at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>And does anyone else remember when the BOD was referred to as "The
>Imperium" ....and their eventual reaction?

I remember when they styled *themselves* the "Imperial Electors."
(My Lady Wife notes that counter-ermine was restricted for their
use and they were to be addressed as "Your Serenity," until the
day that Bonceur ran into Ruthven of Rockridge, then a Director,
at the San Francisco Opera and boomed out in a resonant voice,
"Oh, Your Serenity, how delightful to see you here this
evening!")

	--Hal Ravn
	 (Hal Heydt)


From: ioseph at primenet.com (Joe Bethancourt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: REALLY REALLY old timers needed
Date: 12 Apr 1995 14:53:24 GMT
Organization: Primenet

Frank Holland (fholland at ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: And does anyone else remember when the BOD was referred to as "The
: Imperium" ....and their eventual reaction?

Yup. The phrase was coined by Sarkanyi Gero of the Barony of the Angels, to
the best of my remembrance.

--
 ioseph at primenet.com            PO Box 35190          Locksley Plot Systems
 White Tree Productions       Phoenix, AZ 85069             CyberMongol Ltd


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: REALLY REALLY old timers needed
Date: 13 Apr 1995 01:04:00 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

In article <3mhcj4$451 at ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
Frank Holland <fholland at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
]In <3mgorj$jdi at agate.berkeley.edu> djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy
]J Heydt) writes: 
]>[Hal posting from Dorothy's account...]
]>In article <3mfsh1$hrp at ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>,
]>Frank Holland <fholland at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
]>>And does anyone else remember when the BOD was referred to as "The
]>>Imperium" ....and their eventual reaction?
]>
]>I remember when they styled *themselves* the "Imperial Electors."
]
]Is >that< why the corporate headquarters was referred to as the
]"Imperium Compound"?

"Imperium Compound" was a reference to the practice, but the
primary site at the time was a house still called (by it's
residents) "Greyhaven"--and by some of the rest of us "Elf Hill."

	--Hal Ravn
	 (Hal Heydt)


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: A historical perspective...
Date: 20 Apr 1995 22:13:06 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

[Hal posting from Dorothy's account....]

I found the following while persuing an old _Page_ on a quest for some 
rather different information, and I thought it might be amusing in 
light of more recent events....

FROM THE SCA, INC.:

The Board of Directors has decided to release its minutes to the 
populace.  For $2.50 a year, one may receive a copy of each month's 
minutes, usually in the first week of the following month.  Send your 
name and address and $2.50 to the Clerk of the Chancery, SCA Inc., 
P. O. Box 1162, Berkeley, California 94701.

The Board will also issue copies of the minutes to the Kingdom 
newsletters, to be summarized at the editors' discretion.

At the July meeting, actions included the passing of the above; 
confirmation of Richard of Alsace as Seneschal of the Middle Kingdom; 
a provision that a member of the Order of the Laurel may petition to 
receive a Pelican in its stead, should he so desire; note taken that 
T.I. #28 was ready to be mailed; and the acceptance of new branch, to 
be called Myrkfaellin (in which Kingdom they don't say).

        (from _The Page_, September AS IX)


        --Hal Ravn
         (Hal Heydt)


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Subject: Re: REALLY REALLY old timers needed
Organization: The University of Chicago
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 16:34:25 GMT

I wrote:

> when the Middle was being started, the Known
> World Handbook was a major source for what we knew about the SCA.

Solveig replied:

"I am astonished to hear this as I thought that the Known World
Handbook
was the creation of an Eastern subject who joined the society in about
the same time frame that the Duke was king of the Eastrealm.  I have 
always heard that the East Kingdom was created by people reading a
very
early edition of "Forward into the Past"."

I misspoke. The book we used was called (I believe) _The Handbook of
the Current Middle Ages_. I am fairly sure it was not _Forward Into
the Past_. I think of _The Known World Handbook_ as the updated and
much expanded version of _The Handbook of the Current Middle Ages_,
but I was mistaken in assigning the former title to the latter work.

David/Cariadoc


From: David Schroeder <ds4p+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: REALLY REALLY old timers needed
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 20:33:20 -0400
Organization: Sponsored account, Graduate School of Industrial Administr., Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Excerpts from netnews.rec.org.sca: 23-Apr-95 Re: REALLY REALLY old
timer.. by david d. friedman at quads. 
> I wrote:
> 
> > when the Middle was being started, the Known
> > World Handbook was a major source for what we knew about the SCA.
> 
> Solveig replied:
> 
>> "I am astonished to hear this as I thought that the Known World
>> Handbook was the creation of an Eastern subject who joined the 
>> society in about the same time frame that the Duke was king of
>> the Eastrealm.  I have always heard that the East Kingdom was 
>> created by people reading a very early edition of 
>> "Forward into the Past"."
> 
> I misspoke. The book we used was called (I believe) _The Handbook of
> the Current Middle Ages_. I am fairly sure it was not _Forward Into
> the Past_. I think of _The Known World Handbook_ as the updated and
> much expanded version of _The Handbook of the Current Middle Ages_,
> but I was mistaken in assigning the former title to the latter work.
> 
> David/Cariadoc

  To the best of my knowledge "Forward Into the Past" was first
  published in the late 1980s.  I did the layout and typesetting
  for it and remember doing it then.  I also believe that it was
  the first SCA-wide publication of that name, though I used to
  run a column in TI in the early 1980s on language entitled
  "For Words Into the Past..."

  It would be great to have a copy or a photocopy of
  _The Handbook of the Current Middle Ages_ available
  at Pennsic for those of us interested in SCA history
  to examine...  Anyone willing to copy their copy?

  My best -- Bertram


From: fp458 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Elise A. Fleming)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: REALLY REALLY old timers needed
Date: 24 Apr 1995 11:30:12 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)

Greetings!  _Forward Into the Past_ is a (relatively) NEW (emphasis)
publication.  I was the primary writer for it and began work in
November of 1988.  It went through the review and revision process
in 1989 with eventual publication late in that year.  Has it re-
ceived so much approval that it seems to have been around forever?
(Hm-m-m...if the East was started by someone who read _Forward
Into the Past_ would that make me an old timer? :^)  I'd been in
the SCA for not-quite two years when it was published.)

Alys Katharine/Elise (both of whom creak when she attempts to 
stand up after posting the message)


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: REALLY REALLY old timers needed
Date: 25 Apr 1995 16:03:13 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

[Hal posting from Dorothy's account....]
In article <Ajaj7E600iVDA7wr0G at andrew.cmu.edu>,
David Schroeder  <ds4p+ at andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>  It would be great to have a copy or a photocopy of
>  _The Handbook of the Current Middle Ages_ available
>  at Pennsic for those of us interested in SCA history
>  to examine...  Anyone willing to copy their copy?

Hilary of Serendip has made photocopies on numerous occasions,
usually for classes on the history of the SCA--including doing so
at Pennsic, I beleive.

The original version was written to pass out at WorldCon in 1968,
and was the version picked up by fen and taken back to start the
East and the Middle.  (And, hence, Hilary's distinction between
'the people of the Word' and 'the people of the Book.')

In the mean time, you might inquire of Sedalia, as the Society
Seneschal is probably the inheritor of the Stewards files.

	--Hal Ravn
	 (Hal Heydt)


From: rudi3964 at utdallas.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Terms of Address: "My Lord / Gentles"
Date: 15 May 1995 09:12:23 -0500
Organization: The University of Texas at Dallas

rosalyn rice (rorice at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
>  "Gentles" as a collective noun synonymous with "you all"
> I presume is a shortened form of "gentlemen and gentlewomen". (Sort of like
> referring to a collection of waiters and waitresses in a resturaunt as "the
> wait staff" or "the waits".)
> 	Like a lot of other things in the SCA it's origins are probably lost
> in time and legend and don't have a whole lot to do with historical practice.
> 	Lothar

Amazing.  Undocumented speculation and bemoaning the SCA's poor 
historical practice in the same posting.  Actually, the SCA has it right 
this time.

From "The Pardoner's Tale" in Chaucer's *Tales of Caunterbury*:
	But right anon thise gentils gonne to crye,
	"Nay, let him telle us of no ribaudye..."

The Oxford English Dictionary lists many period example of the noun 
"gentle" meaning people of the gentle (i.e.landed) classes.

Robin of Gilwell/ Jay Rudin


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: malmberg at badlands.NoDak.edu (Kenric D Malmberg)
Subject: Re: Starting a new group (Help Please)
Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 06:04:14 GMT
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network

Unto Orson the Unfashionable and the others gathered here doth Kenric 
Bjarnarson give greetings.
: I have recently moved to a Wollongong, Australia.  As there is no local SCA
: group I would like to start one.  Any suggestions would be appreciated. 
: (I have thought of trying to get some people down to do a demo at the 
: local University) Also anyone that might live in the area and is 
: interested in helping, could you mail me and tell me.
:                                 Suffering from SCA withdrawel,
:                                 Robert A. Kielbicki,
:                                 A.K.A. Orson the Unfashionable.
: 				(roberta at uow.edu.au)

The West's Senechal's Handbook should give you the requirements for 
starting a new group (five members, etc.).  This is true for anyone 
trying to start a new group (using the correct kingdom's book, 
obviously).  The kingdom senechal can help with ordering it, getting the 
names and addresses of the nearest groups, and even the names of other 
SCA folks in your area (we found one who had been a member-at-large for 
several years when we got started).

Your best bet for your area would be to first contact the Lochac 
(Australia) Senechal, who is obviously closer.  Hopefully, someone will 
e-mail you that gentle's address and phone.  If you don't get it within a 
few days, e-mail me and I'll dig up a Lochac contact.

As to enticing local members, a demo is a good idea, but several groups 
have started by a newspaper ad (Castel Rouge and Rudivale, to name two).

In service,
Kenric Bjarnarson


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA History Request
Date: 26 May 1995 03:09:15 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

In article <1995May26.011201.19381 at dg-rtp.dg.com>,
Edward Hopkins <hopkins at hopkins.rtp.dg.com> wrote:
>Has there ever been a case in Known World history that
>someone has chosen the name Ardis, then changed his name
>to something else, then won a crown tourney or coronet
>tourney?

The only Ardis I've ever known in the Society is Duchess Ardis an
Dearg, who never fought in any tourney (women didn't fight back
then) but was successfully fought for by Duke Siegfried von
Ho"flichskeit, and who never changed her name at all so far as I
know.

Does anybody, first off, have documentation for Ardis as a male
name?  As a female name?  It was also her mundane personal name.
Nobody tried to research its periodicity; this was back in the
morning of the world when there was less noise and more green.
The Beltane Coronation at which she and Siegfried were crowned
for the first time was the first ever SCA overnight camping
event; it was the Year III or thereabouts.

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin		Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West			UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable		djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu
PRO DEO ET REGE


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Longest-active SCA members
Date: 12 Jun 1995 20:27:01 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

In article <1995Jun12.122422 at blah.bsuvc.bsu.edu>,
The Morgenstern Under the Mountain <morgenstern at blah.bsuvc.bsu.edu> wrote:
>
>...Who, as far as anyone knows, is the longest-running member of
>the SCA?  ....  Are any of the attendees of the original 
>event of May, 1966, still active at all in the SCA?

You betcha.  We call them (unofficially) the Order of the Dinosaur.

Still EXCEEDINGLY active: Duke Frederick of Holland, MSCA, OP,
etc etc ad infinitum, generally called "Master Flieg."

Still very active:  Lady Mariana of Silversea, who was one of
Diana's roommates.

Still seen occasionally:  Duke Richard of Mont Real, MSCA, who
*won* the first tourney; Mistress Diana Listmaker, OL, OP, who
*gave the first tourney.

These are all in the West Kingdom.

I still see Mistress Elfreida of Greenwalls (Marion Zimmer Bradley)
fairly often, but she doesn't do SCA any more.  But she still lives
in Berkeley.

Any Dinosaurs still active in other Kingdoms?

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin		Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West			UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable		djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu
PRO DEO ET REGE


From: Garick Chamberlin <Garick at vonkopke.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Longest-active SCA members
Date: 13 Jun 1995 19:51:12 +0100
Organization: Myorganisation

In article <1995Jun12.122422 at blah.bsuvc.bsu.edu>
           morgenstern at blah.bsuvc.bsu.edu
           "The Morgenstern Under the Mountain" writes:
> think of; are there any more?  Are any of the attendees of the original 
> event of May, 1966, still active at all in the SCA?

And let's not forget Duke Sir Siegfried von Hofflichkeit, still active in
the West Kingdom as well. (Though hiding up in Allyshia behind the redwood
curtain)  His persona dates to A.S. negative 2 and who was practicing sword
fighting in the back yard when they got the idea for that famous party.

Viscount Sir Garick von Kopke
(who found it very strange to have a legend as a member of his populace
when he was baron.)


From: Dria Chamberlin <Talitha at vonkopke.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Five Guiding Philosophies (was: If the SCA's broken...)
Date: 10 Jun 1995 01:42:51 +0100
Organization: Myorganisation

In article <3qkmho$pgv at utdallas.edu> rudi3964 at utdallas.edu  writes:
> But I haven't read the tax law.  If the SCA, in this low-level way, leads 
> its people who aren't interested in research (ignoring for the moment 
> those of us who are) into low-level, junior high school knowledge, is 
> that sufficiently "educational"?  I don't know, and I suspect it's fuzzy 
> enough that we'll never know until it goes to court.  Would one of the 
> tax experts who so completely quashed my first post please consider 
> research and learning on this elementary, learn-by-doing level?

Just for the record. It already has gone to court. Many years ago an ex-member
of thr Board of Directors filed a motion that the SCA's 501 (c) (3) status be
removed on exactly the grounds that others have mentioned, i.e. that our main
purpose is fun, not education.  This argument fell on deaf ears to the court, 
who found that we were meeting every one of our stated goals.  

In fact, even without our self education, the educational demos that we do for
schools on a regular basis make us very active as educational foundations go.
IMHO everyone can stop worrying about this particular bogeyman.

					Vis. Sir Garick von Kopke
					Honor Virtus Est


From: lsteele at mtholyoke.edu (Lisa Steele)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Five Guiding Philosophies (was: If the SCA's broken...)
Date: 11 Jun 1995 16:10:59 GMT
Organization: Mount Holyoke College

Dria Chamberlin (Talitha at vonkopke.demon.co.uk) wrote:

> Just for the record. It already has gone to court. Many years ago an ex-member
> of thr Board of Directors filed a motion that the SCA's 501 (c) (3) status be
> removed on exactly the grounds that others have mentioned, i.e. that our main
> purpose is fun, not education.  This argument fell on deaf ears to the court, 
> who found that we were meeting every one of our stated goals.  

  Citation? I can't find any record of this in the legal databases. It is 
also black letter law that a private citizen can't try to force this 
issue. The IRS gets to pick who it examines and why.
  I would like to see a copy of this case--the only Court that has the 
authority to make this decision is the US Tax Court. All of its decisions 
are reported and I have checked there in full-text databases. Plus, the 
Court won't let a taxpayer bring this kind of suit and analyze the merits 
of the plea.
  -- Esclarmonde


From: ioseph at primenet.com (Joe Bethancourt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Longest-active SCA members
Date: 14 Jun 1995 13:08:57 GMT
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet (602)395-1010

Thomas W Delfs (fridrikr at world.std.com) wrote:
: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:

: >In article <1995Jun12.122422 at blah.bsuvc.bsu.edu>,
: >The Morgenstern Under the Mountain <morgenstern at blah.bsuvc.bsu.edu> wrote:
: >>
: >>...Who, as far as anyone knows, is the longest-running member of
: >>the SCA?  ....  Are any of the attendees of the original 
: >>event of May, 1966, still active at all in the SCA?

: >You betcha.  We call them (unofficially) the Order of the Dinosaur.

: >Still EXCEEDINGLY active: Duke Frederick of Holland, MSCA, OP,
: >etc etc ad infinitum, generally called "Master Flieg."

: >Still very active:  Lady Mariana of Silversea, who was one of
: >Diana's roommates.

: >Still seen occasionally:  Duke Richard of Mont Real, MSCA, who
: >*won* the first tourney; Mistress Diana Listmaker, OL, OP, who
: >*gave the first tourney.

: >These are all in the West Kingdom.

: >I still see Mistress Elfreida of Greenwalls (Marion Zimmer Bradley)
: >fairly often, but she doesn't do SCA any more.  But she still lives
: >in Berkeley.

: >Any Dinosaurs still active in other Kingdoms?

: I suspect that at 19+ years, both Baroness Daedra MacBeth a Gryphon and I 
: rank as "very ancient newbies" of the East.  Count Sir Jehan de la Marche 
: and Sir Garanhir of Ness are still active in AEthelmearc, and Duke 
: Asbjorn has been known to show at practices and events in Sterlyng Vayle 
: (Binghamton, NY) from time to time.

Lessee, I joined in AS 2, 13 months after the founding of the SCA, along
with Rick Cook (Sir Richard Ironsteed).

							-Ioseph
--
 locksley at locksley.com          PO Box 35190          Locksley Plot Systems
 White Tree Productions       Phoenix, AZ 85069             CyberMongol Ltd


From: eilis at haas.berkeley.edu (Lee Forgue)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Case cited by Sir Garik
Date: 15 Jun 1995 17:50:54 GMT
Organization: Haas School of Business, University of California, Berkeley

Garick Chamberlin  <Garick at vonkopke.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>HAROLD.FELD at hq.doe.GOV  writes: > >>      
>>      In trying to catch up on my Rialto, I noticed that Sir Garik says that 
>>      an individual attempted to litigate the SCA's tax status before the 
>>      Tax Court.
>
>Actualy, I didn't say anything about it being TAX Court. I believe it was
>some form of civil court, but I am Not A Lawyer <tm>. 

I'm not a lawyer, or a dinosaur, but...

A former Board member (author of a phamphlet called "Trends of Change") 
sued the SCA in, I believe, Arizona.  His contention was that the SCA 
Inc. had accepted his membership money under false pretenses for many 
years, since they claimed to be educational and were not.  (This suit 
was, BTW, brought after he had held a seat on the Board, after he had 
been an officer, etc.  Many felt that it was brought because the Board 
would not come around to his way of thinking on several subjects, like 
Royal Perrages for non-fighters.)

The judge threw the suit out of court.

  --- eilis o'boirne


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Diana's Story (was: can i be a dinosaur?)
Date: 16 Jun 1995 04:07:09 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

In article <3rqikr$rl2 at news-4.csn.net>,
Mary Morman <memorman at oldcolo.com> wrote:
>please, dorothea, tell us a story.

Okay, this is approximately the way Diana told it.

	Once upon a time there was a scholar who lived in an
ivory tower.  And in that tower lived many other scholars, who
spent their time reading books and writing papers about what
some other scholar had said another scholar had said *another*
scholar had said they used to do in the Middle Ages.

	But the scholar of whom I speak was more fortunate than the
rest, for she used to escape from the tower from time to time and
go down into the town, where she met many interesting people.
And some of these folk belonged to a tribe called "fandom," and
they too read many books and wrote many papers, and they
published them in loose journals printed on coarse wood-pulp
paper.  And the scholar, who had some skill as an artist, drew
pictures of knights and ladies and elves and dragons, and these
appeared in the wood-pulp paper journals.

	And in this tribe were two young men with whom the
scholar became acquainted; and they were beautiful young men, one
dark and one fair, and both with eyes the color of summer heaven.
And on a day the scholar went to visit the young men in their
home, and she saw hanging on the wall two bright swords and two
well-wrought shields emblazoned with devices of heraldry.  And
she said, "What do you do with those?"

	And the young men replied, "WE FIGHT WITH THEM."

	And the scholar said, "How splendid.  Next time you
practice, I shall come and draw pictures of you."

	And on many a day the young men met to practice their
skills with sword and shield, and the scholar covered many sheets
of wood-pulp paper with their likenesses.

	Then there came the day when the scholar stepped out of
her own house into her back yard, and the thought came to her,

	"You could hold a tournament here.

	"Look!  Here the fighters could fight, and here the
spectators could sit, and if there were too many of them some of
them could stand behind the wall there, safe from random blows.
You could do it.  You could hold a tournament here."

	And she thought, "How delightful!"  But she also bethought
her that she had her Master's orals coming up in two weeks, and
going back into her kitchen, she said to her housemates,

	"I've had the most wonderful idea.  TALK ME OUT OF IT!"

	And she told her housemates her idea, and they all
answered,  "That's wonderful!  We'll all help!"

	And so they chose the First of May as the date of the
tournament, and they caused to be printed on many sheets of
wood-pulp paper the message, "Come to a Tournament--for that it
is spring."  And the message was broadcast all round the ivory
tower and the town besides.

	And on the day, at the stroke of noon, being the time set
to begin the tournament, the scholar set foot outside her door,
and there was no one there.

	And half an hour later, she stepped outside her door
again, and there were fifty people there.

	Then came Jon deCles in the robes of an Archbishop, and
intoned, "Ecce Eduardus Ursus nunc occipite post Christophorum
Robinem tump-tump-tump scalis descendens," and all sang "Amen."
And Elizabeth Pope, Doctor of Philosophy, was named Judge of the
Lists, and the knights and squires came forth to do battle, and
many brave deeds of swordplay were seen.

	And young David the Herald fought so well that Sir
Siegfried von Hoeflischkeit dubbed him Knight there upon the
field.

	And Marynel of Darkhaven, being then but young, had
bidden her father Beverly Hodghead to come to the place half
an hour after she did, in case she wished to return home; but
when he saw the noble company and the deeds that were being done,
he hurried home and returned again in haste, bringing the crossbow
that he had made for himself.  And he fired a bolt against one of the
shields, and behold! the point curled up upon itself like a little
shell.

	And a certain Knight was named victor, and he crowned his
Lady with a wreath of roses.

	And then all said to one another, "What shall we do next?"
And it was answered generally thus, "This is Berkeley.  Should we
not be protesting something?"  And they marched up and down
Telegraph Avenue protesting the ugliness of the twentieth
century, from which they had escaped that day.

	And then, passing by the market, they bought roasted
chickens and bottles of wine, and returning to the field of the
tournament, they built a fire and sat around it, eating chickens
and drinking wine and telling tales, long into the night.

	And the scholar, sitting by the fire, said to herself,
"This happened.  This really happened.  The Last Tournament
*wasn't* in 1839, it happened today; and someday, years from now,
I shall be able to tell my grandchildren that once, just once
long ago, this happened."

	But the man seated beside her was saying to the man next
to him, "Now, *next* time I'm going to hit him like THIS!"

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin		Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West			UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable		djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu
PRO DEO ET REGE


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: sirjon at netcom.com (John Edgerton)
Subject: Re: can i be a dinosaur?
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 04:18:53 GMT

Dorothy J Heydt (djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu) wrote:
: >> Jill.Mason at f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Jill Mason) writes:
: >> 
: >> >By the reckoning I was taught, 1st tourney folks are amoebas, yr 2 to 
: >> >then comes the dinosaurs second tourney, wooly mammoths are 
: >> >c.1974thru1980. etc.

: Hmmm.  I didn't see this at the time she posted.  Here in the
: West, where most of the known dinosaurs still live, dinosaurs are
: those who were at the original tourney in Diana's back yard.  The
: rest of us aren't anything much.  I was at the second tourney.  I
: don't describe myself as anything in particular, except an
: awfully OLD old-timer.

: Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin		Dorothy J. Heydt
: Mists/Mists/West			UC Berkeley
: Argent, a cross forme'e sable		djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu
: PRO DEO ET REGE
***********************
And I came in at Twelth Night II, and do not even consider myself an 
oldtimer. 

Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf(Once upon a time Jon the Lean)
Esfenn, Mists, West  
John R. Edgerton, Newark, CA:  sirjon at netcom.com 


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Arabic Clothing.
From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 95 09:59:41 EDT

DDFr at Midway.UChicago.edu (David Friedman) writes:
> > Arabic Court Baron wear?
> 
> What would an English Court Baron wear? So far as I know, both are
> imaginary; I think "Court Baron" is an SCA invention, although I could be
> wrong. What actual Muslim rank do you want to assume it corresponds to? 
> 
> "Arab" is a pretty vague term. When and wear do you assume you are from?
> 
> > Did the Arabs use Coronets or anything close?  
> 
> Good question. Off hand I can't think of any examples.
> 
> > Baron Achbar ibn Ali
> -- 
> David/Cariadoc
> DDFr at Midway.UChicago.Edu
Respected friends:
Well, we re-invented it. There were landless barons in the Crusader 
Kingdom of Acre, and their French name translated into modern english,
approximately of course, as "Barons of the Court". They either advised
(royal council-ish) or administrated, but I forget which.
This is secondhand from a man who has done a lot of research in
Crusader subjects. When he found out about SCA court barons, he thought it
was very funny; he seemed to think the Acre originals were _very_ good
with people, and I personally know at least two Court Barons who got that
rank because no order would tolerate them...

                                Yours in service to the Society-
                                (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk R.S.F. 
                                Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf C.O.L. SCA
                                Una Wicca (That Pict)


From: ansteorra at eden.com (7/10/95)
To: ansteorra at eden.com
RE>Ideal event

><n.b-reid at mail.utexas.edu (Nancy Bradford-Reid)>
>>>Farspeaker list/Domesdaylist/whatever you call it.
>>>        In period, it was often a common thing to keep lists of the populace
>>>        in a village/ward/town etc, in order to determine who was elegable to
>>>        vote where, who hadn't served in offices, who lived where.
>>*****And, I believe, Domesday Boke was the proper term for it.*******
>
>I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall that the "Domesday Boke" was
>a specific compilation, published once (in 1089 or something) and had
>more in common with the national census than it did with the telephone
>directory.

True, however, it's still a good enough period name, and the one we
(personally) have is used for many more things than getting phone numbers,
but that's beside the point.
>
>The question is, why do we call them by these silly jargon terms?

Many of them come down to us from the earliest days of the SCA.
"Autocrat," for instance.  I believe it was Marion Zimmer Bradley's brother
(someone correct me, if I'm wrong on the name) was filling out a form to
reserve a park for the second ever SCA event and was asked for his "title"
in the organization and he put "autocrat."  Many of the cutesie terms like
dragon, farspeaker, troll, elf (for answering machine), smalls, etc. come
from a time when the SCA was much more fantasy oriented than it is now.
Many of the older names in the SCA would never get past local heralds, let
alone Laurel, now days.

Catherine

Nan Bradford-Reid        |HL Catherine Harwell, CIM, AST
The Department of English|Barony of Bryn Gwlad, Kingdom of Ansteorra
The University of Texas  |~Simplicitas sum Venustas~
512-471-4991             |Argent, on a fret vert, a rose gules,
n.b-reid at mail.utexas.edu |barbed and seeded or.


From: ansteorra at eden.com (7/16/95)
To: ansteorra at eden.com
RE>Ideal event

Pug cites the definition of "knight" from Webster's, and then writes:

> This clearly shows that the SCA's usage of the word Knight is just fine, but
> to replace it, we could use other terms. Personally I prefer Fighter or 
> Warrior over Soldier or Man-at-arms.

However, there are only very rare cases where non-knights were
permitted to compete in tournaments in the Middle Ages.  Certainly,
you wouldn't want to restrict non-Chivalry to competing only in
"war"-type events.

This is one of those things that got messed up in the early years of
the Society.  In the first several tourneys, there were very few
entrants who were not referred to as "knights" or "Sir X".   Those
elevated to the Peerage at Twelfth Night, AS II (about 14 or so)
comprised about 1/3 of the people who had regularly competed at that
point (remember, we're only talking about a half-dozen or so tourneys
at this time), and were made "Knights of the Laurel", according the
the text used.  This would be consistent with medieval practice, where
nobles who were _already_ knights (small "k") might be inducted into
an exclusive royal order of knighthood and become "Knights" (capital
"K") of that order.  Unfortunately, this distinction was lost early
on, so that _only_ members of what soon became known as the "Order of
Chivalry" could use the titles "knight" and "sir".

If we were to try to be more accurate to medieval practice, _any_
authorized fighter could call themselves a "knight" (small "k"), and
use the form "Sir X", and the Knights of the Order of Chivalry, as
Peers of the Realm, would be more appropriately styled "Baron" (if we
use a primarily English model).

Mikjal Annarbjorn
-- 
Michael A. Chance          St. Louis, Missouri, USA    "At play in the fields
Work: mc307a at sw1stc.sbc.com                             of St. Vidicon"
Play: mchance at crl.com


From: mittle at panix.com (Josh Mittleman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Sir vs. Master
Date: 22 Dec 1995 11:01:10 -0500
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

Greetings from Arval!  Ioseph Lockesley wrote:

> Good question.....especially since the unadorned chain is a reserved badge
> (according to the CoA) of a knight in the SCA.

A plain chain is reserved to knights only by custom, and that custom varies
from one place to another.  Chains of fealty are worn in various places by
squires, by other peers in fealty, etc.

Wilhelm von Schuessel, as Laurel King of Arms, attempted to protect some
Society-wide insignia by registering them as badges.  One of the badges he
registered is "A circular chain", registered to the Society as a whole as a
badge for the Order of Knighthood.

There are two problems, however, with interpretting this registration as
restricting the wearing of plain chains to knights.

First, Wilhelm had no formal authority to regulate regalia.  The Board did
not grant that authority to Laurel until a few years ago.  It may have been
generally assumed that Laurel had that authority in Wilhelm's day, but the
Board had never confirmed it.

Second, the registration of a badge quite definitely does _not_ restrict
the use of the object depicted in the badge.  It only reserves the right to
the badge itself, as an armorial insignia.  If I were able to register the
badge "A sword palewise argent", I could not demand that my opponents in
combat cease to hold their swords in a vertical position.  Nor could I
demand that artists stop painting vertical swords in their illuminations.
A badge is a picture of an object, and only in certain contexts.  A closed
loop of chain is not the same as the badge "A circular chain".

The badge registration only restricts the use of a picture of "A circular
chain" in contexts in which that picture would be interpretted as a badge.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord                                         mittle at panix.com


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Fantasy has no place in it
Date: 20 Dec 1995 17:46:46 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

In article <bjm10-2012951241390001 at potato.cit.cornell.edu>,
Bryan J. Maloney <bjm10 at cornell.edu> wrote:
>
>> One of the society's founders was Ursula K. LeQuinn, a fantasy writer, 

No, no.  Ursula K. LeGuin (note spelling--perhaps you were
thinking of her mother, Theodora Kroeber-Quinn?) has never been
involved in the SCA that I know of.  I think you meant to say
Marion Zimmer Bradley (Mistress Elfreida of Greenwalls), who in
the Year 1 went to the Parks Department to reserve a field for
the second tournament and was confronted by a form asking, "Name
of Organization:"  (Name?  We have a name?  We have an
organization?)  and made up "Society for Creative Anachronism" on
the spot.

>> and from the beginning the SCA was organized for the "Creative" enjoyment 
>> of medieval society.  It was never intended to be a re-enactment group.

We never INTENDED *any*thing.  We never expected that this thing
would go into 30+ years and become some people's only social
activity and others' livelihood.  Goodness knows what we would
have done if we did.

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin		Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West			UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable		djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu
PRO DEO ET REGE


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: sirjon at netcom.com (John Edgerton)
Subject: Re: Freon helmets
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 22:17:48 GMT

Edwin L. Hewitt (brogoose at pe.net) wrote:
: I have worn freon can helmets.  They were banned. They should stay
: that way.  Freon cans were two lightweight, and caved in easily,
: they were ugly, and never fit the head anyway.  To make it stand up
: to the punishment of combat, you needed several pounds of reinforcement.
: This made it heavy, ugly and ill fitting.  

: It really is easier to make a period barrel helm from scratch, than to
: retro a freon can.  Leave freon cans to the 20th century.

Just a passing note.

The original freon drum helms would not cave in easily.  They would turn 
a railroad spike hammer or a 32 cal. slug. One of them was in use for 
about 25 years, first as a fighting helm then as a loaner for a ongoing 
fighter practice with very little damage to the helm, thought the bars 
did get bent.  They may not have been good looking, but they were not weak. 

Sir Jon Fitz-Rauf.  West, Mists, Esfenn


Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 09:48:36 -0600
From: mfgunter at tddcae99.tddeng00.fnts.com (Michael F. Gunter)
To: ansteorra at eden.com
Subject: Ducal perogative

From what I remember, Ducal perogative started out in the dim past in, I believe, the Middle Kingdom.  Seems there was a rule that one of the duties of Knighthood was the obligation to fight in Crown unless granted an excuse by the current Majesties.  The idea came up that Dukes had served their Kingdom sufficiently so that they did not have to fight if they didn't wish to without having to gain the Crown's permission.

I'm not sure if this is the total and true origins but this is what I have heard.

Gunthar


To: ansteorra at eden.com
Subject: Re: Ducal perogative
From: robertwestmar at juno.com (R o W)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 17:57:56 EST

>From what I remember, Ducal perogative started out in the dim past 
>in, I believe, the Middle Kingdom. <snip>
>
>Gunthar

I believe it comes from an even dimmer past in the West Kingdom.    A
time of single-elimination tourneys where all Knights had a RIGHT to
fight in Crown & unbelts were invited in a couple at a time to fill out
the list.   I remember the thrill the first time I was chosen by the
King.   Dukes could enter with no intent to win & withdraw at any time
(Ducal Perogative).   It was explained to me that thus a Duke could save
the Kingdom from the vagaries of mischance should a superjock mundane
join & come close to the winning of a Crown which he would not value and
would abuse.   I saw several instances of Dukes, who I knew well, staying
in a List just long enough to take out a particular fighter.  (OF COURSE
this was misused!).   Perhaps there is a Dinosaur lurking who has a
different take on the reasoning.   I only know what the Great Ones told
me.             

 Sir Robert     


Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 19:52:07 -0800
From: Galen of Bristol <pmitchel at flash.net>
Organization: Incipient College of Three Bridges
To: ansteorra at eden.com
Subject: Re: ducal perogative

dentim at mail.myriad.net wrote:
>Some postings on the Aten list raised a few questions which I am curious about.
> What is Ducal perogative? I've heard a few things like being able to enter
> crown list at *any* time, being able to enter court w/o previous permission,
> etc. Are these true? Do customs vary from kingdom to kingdom? What other
> privlages to those of royal rank have?
> 
> timo

Duke Siegfried von Hoeflichkeit, of the West Kingdom, and one of
the founders of the SCA, explained it to me that there was a
tradition, which some of us still observe, that knights were
obligated to enter the Crown List.  I believe that the idea
of this is that anyone winning the Crown should have had
to defeat first-class opponents to do so.  Dukes, however,
were exempt from this obligation.  This was the origin of 
Ducal Prerogative.  Siegfried told me that in Atenveldt, this
evolved into a right to withdraw from the list at any time,
which is what we have in Ansteorra now.

It does get abused.  Also, I recall one occasion when a Count
simply walked off the field, just as if he were exercising
Ducal Prerogative.  "You can't do that," the King told him.
"I just did," the Count replied.  The effect of a forfeit is
indistinguishable from the effect of a Duke exercising his
Prerogative.

I think that knights are obligated by tradition to enter the
Crown List if they can; and as Crystal pointed out, that includes
the Sword Oath, so they need to be able to take that oath.

If you are ready, willing and able to be King, I see nothing
wrong with entering Crown, even if your chance of winning is
negligible.

But I don't approve of any circumstance that enables someone who
is not trying to win to eliminate someone who is trying to win;
that includes destructive byes as well as Ducal Prerogative.
-- 
Viscount Galen of Bristol, KSCA, CSM, etc.
Paul Mitchell, pmitchel at flash.net / "noblesse oblige"


Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 10:04:56 -0800
From: Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu>
To: markh at risc.sps.mot.com
Subject: Time Travel

Hi, Stefan.  A couple of days ago you said,

> Was the Henrik and Nora episode a real event? Did it really have an
> effect on having women fighters in the SCA?

Oh yes, it was.  It was something like the Fall 1966 tourney, in
Cragmont Park.  I was there.  This young woman named Nora came
along in her natty whites, with a fencing foil and an attitude.
She thought we were all a bunch of dingbats and challenged us
to fight like *real* (i.e., wire) swordsmen.  Specifically, she
challenged Henrik of Havn, who was the best fighter we had in
those days, and she fought with her foil and he fought with his
wooden sword (don't think we had rattan yet) and he trounced her,
and although he wasn't *trying* to hurt her he must've left a
couple of bruises.  And she burst into tears and wailed, "You
shouldn't hit me, I'm a girl!"  Whereupon all the male fighters
said, "She's right, knights shouldn't hit ladies, we'd better
make a ruling that ladies shouldn't fight."  And so it was for
several years until Trude Lacklandia came along and hit them
on two different fronts: doing research on women who had fought
in period, and training (in secret) till she was good enough to
show them in real life.

The followup is that a few years ago I mentioned this episode to
Count Geoffrey of Griffinhold, who does a certain amount of
fencing though not in the SCA.  He said, "Oh, yeah, Nora, I know
who that is."  He seemed to think the incident was perfectly in
character for her.  Seems she has just retired from a long career
in fencing (I don't recall whether professional or amateur or
both) and Geoffrey, for one, did not appear sorry to see her go.

> What is this about "associated guilds"? And them dying back in AS single
> digits?

The Associated Guild[e]s were founded in about AS 2 or 3 by
Baroness Geraldine of Toad Hall.  They were supposed to support,
teach, and practice the various crafts.  They faded away and
died through lack of interest.  In a slightly different Society,
where you couldn't "get a Laurel" just for being good at your art
or craft, maybe they would've lingered longer.  Maybe not.  But
in a slightly different Society, where we were trying to
approximate the difference between the nobility and the middle
class, they would've helped with the authenticity thing.  IF
they'd survived.

> As for "though the spurs are a more appropriate symbol for
> them; but they're more expensive, harder to find, and tend to gash
> one's neighbors in the foot.....", I think the first two proably
> would be solved by the SCA craftsmen and merchants.

Yes, eventually.  But what do you do when it's alternate-1967 and
you're just starting out?  We didn't have any SCA merchants and
damn few craftsmen, particularly in metal, which requires a certain
number of tools and somewhere to work and a bit of money.  We had
one Master Machinist with a home workshop and the rest of us were
college students.  It would've been very difficult to *start*
with spurs as the symbol of knighthood, and expecting about ten
guys to buy pairs.  Or asking Beverly Hodghead to make about ten
pairs, when he was busy with other projects (making the Ancient
and Honourable Crowns of the West, for instance--not the set we
have now; the original pair, made of copper and fiendishly
uncomfortable).

> I don't see "mundanes" and "medievals" as being any better than
> "clothes" and "garb". Niether pair is medieval.

Come to that, it isn't medieval to realize that there are two
styles of clothing for two different historical periods.  Perhaps
we could've arranged that when you were in the Current Middle
Ages you said "clothes" of your medieval clothing and didn't
mention your 20th century clothing at all; and when you were in
20th-century mode it didn't matter what you said--except that I
would still try to discourage calling your medieval clothing
"costuming."

"Medievals" isn't medieval because "medieval" isn't medieval;
it's Renaissance.  "Mundanes," however, is simply the plural of an
adjective used as a noun, and can be translated "worldly things"
where "world" is "secular human society," particularly when
you're dwelling on all that is wrong with it.  A very medieval
concept. I think I could make a case for using "mundanes" as a
modern-English-language translation of a medieval concept, as
when Abbess Hilda urged Caedmon to put off worldhood and put
on monkhood.

> Either pair is better than "troll", "farspeaker", "dragon" and "eric".

Well, though in the West we use "eric" in memory of the original
Lists marker, Eric the Red, which is still in the living memory
of several of our citizens, we don't use "troll" or "dragon"
[except when a plane flies overhead and we call for the archers],
at all and "farspeaker" never caught on.

If I had it to do all over again (which is what this has been all
about), I might look for a suitable opportunity (like, when the
Yellow Peril first came on the scene and the Peril was still
yellow and the Eric was still red) to say, "Hey, I just found out
the proper word for the fighting field is the Lists."  Or I might
not, having enough history-changing on my plate already.

It's all in what you're accustomed to--and as long as we go to our
events speaking to each other in Modern English, we're going to have
to diverge here and there from proper medieval usage in order to
understand each other--otherwise, in place of "garb" (Victorian)
or "clothes" (modern) or "medievals" (Latinate), I would suggest
we say "weeds" (Old and Middle English).

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin		Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West				Albany, California
PRO DEO ET REGE				djheydt at uclink


Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:30:27 -0700
To: ansteorra at eden.com
From: Lee Forgue <eilis at haas.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: Badges and Terms

At 06:19 PM 6/18/97 -0500, Joel Schumacher wrote:
>First off, I'm supposed to know that this "chiurgeon" sign I've passed by
>several times (while looking for "first aid") is what I need.
    <much snippage>
>Why not the universally recognized red cross?  (Especially for something as 
>serious as first aid).

The first badge registered for the Chirurgeons (which featured a red cross)
was withdrawn and redesigned after it was pointed out that it was almost
identical to the badge of a "?Grand Dragon of the Ku Klux Klan?" (not sure
of the exact title).

The second badge for the Chirurgeons also featured a red cross, and was
withdrawn after it was discovered that the Red Cross International was
vehement about pursuing trademark infringement (and had become aware of our
use of something resembling their symbol when an SCA chirurgeon who also
worked in a medical capacity wore SCA regalia to an international Red Cross
conference -- we were asked to stop using the Red Cross at that time).

The third badge is the one we currently use -- the upside down "2" is a
fleam, a period surgical bloodletting instrument.

  --- eilis o'boirne (not a chirurgeon, but a herald for way too long!)


Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 21:47:33 -0400
From: "David B. Appleton" <DavidAppleton at compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Badges and Terms
To: Tim McDaniel <tmcd at crl.com>, "[unknown]" <ansteorra at eden.com>

>On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, dennis grace <amazing at mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
>> Nah.  Not a "good reason" at all.  Of course the Red Cross isn't a
>> trademark.  If it were, the Geneva Convention couldn't have required
>> that it be used as one of the four accepted DO NOT
>> BOMB--HUMANITARIAN AID STATION symbols.
...
>> This is yet another example of our heralds being overly sensitive to
>> the claims of outsiders.

>What I heard at the time is that there is an international treaty
>concerning use of a red cross ("couped": arms truncated, not like the
>ensign of England).  That report provoked an unusual amount of
>sensitivity -- courtesy is one issue, but treaties even trump federal
>laws.

"The badge conflicts with the insignia of the International Red Cross, not
by _our_ rules, but by _theirs_.  As stated in Corpora Appendix A, the
Society recognizes the absolute precedence of law issued by civil
authorities over any of its internal rules.'  International treaty severely
restricts the use of a cross couped gules, and this takes precedence over
_any_ of the Rules for Submission, including those for difference, of the
SCA."  LoAR February 1992, p. 32.

"[T]he use of a cross couped gules should probably no longer be allowed in
SCA heraldry because of the international treaties and federal law which
protect that charge and restrict its use to the International Red Cross
(and as a trademark to those who were using it before those treaties went
into effect)."  (LoAR May 1992, p. 30)

>> Boy scouts use the red cross on their merit badges.  First aid kits
>> are labeled with red crosses.

Only first aid kits by those companies who were using a red cross on a
white field _before_ the treaty was signed.  Johnson & Johnson is one of
those companies, so they use the red cross emblem.  Johnny Come Latelies
have to either (a) use something else or (b) hope the American Red Cross
and/or International Red Cross doesn't catch them.  The Boy Scouts may, as
a charitable organization, etc., etc., may have a special dispensation from
the IRC.  You'd have to ask _them_ about that.

>I do recall seeing the latter, tho not recently (not that I've been
>looking).  Those would be counterarguments.

>I'll CC this mail to Master Da'ud ibn Auda, who was Laurel King of
>Arms at least during part of this time.

Yeah, it was under my tenure that the SCA had to change the badge for the
Chirugeon (which had been changed once already because it looked like a KKK
badge).  This came about because some SCA Chirurgeon in Drachenwald wore
their SCA chirurgeon's baldric to a Red Cross meeting.  They were informed
in no uncertain terms that the display was not permissible.  The Laurel
files should still have the copy of the relevant portions of the
international treaty restricting the use of the red cross to the IRC/ARC.

Not wanting to take the chance of the SCA being hauled before the
international court in The Hague, and also wishing to be "good neighbors",
the SCA voluntarily changed the Chirurgeon's badge.

Da'ud
74107.1446 at compuserve.com


Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 09:43:50 -0700
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG, ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
From: Lee Forgue <eilis at haas.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: ANST - SCA Trivia question

At 10:22 PM 8/25/97 -0500, Dieterich wrote:
>The information I have on HG Timothy is based on a conversation I had with
>the young duke at Estrella War two years ago.  As I recall- but my memory
>has been known to fail- he used the words 'West', 'crown', and 'I'.... he
>may have meant 'out west', as in Caid being on the west coast, but that
>wasn't the impression I got.  The right person to ask is probably my knight,
>his former squire brother.  I suspect he'll know, but if there are any
>Westies listening out there in cyberland they'll most likely tell us sooner
>than I can ask.

Timothy has never been King of the West, just Caid and the East.
Christopher of Houghton, if I recall correctly, has West, Atenveldt,
Outlands.  There are several other twos -- Cariadoc of the Bow (Middle and
East), Frederick of Holland (East and West), Ronald Wilmot (West and East),
and the aforementioned Christopher achieved this by moving from one place
to another, and there are several people who stayed in one place and
reigned twice while the Kingdoms changed around them.

  --- eilis o'boirne, Western lurker


Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 22:05:35 -0500
To: fionn at nwlink.com (Jeff Carnegie), ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
From: Burke McCrory <burkemc at ionet.net>
Subject: ANST - Re: Some SCA History...

>        I need some help. What I need to know is the first four or five
>baronial level groups (read Barony or Province) of each kingdom. What I've
>got I list below. Anyone who can provide more info would greatly endear
>themselves to me. Dates would be great too. Also, as this is the only SCA
>list I'm on, if someone could forward this to other SCA lists, I'd greatly
>appreciate it. 
>
>East: Ostgardr, Carolingia, Beyond the Mtn., Bhakail, Bridge
>AEthelmearc: Debateable Lands, Thescorre, Rydderich Hael, ?
>Trimaris: Wyvernwood, An Crosaire, Darkwater
>Middle: Tree Girt Sea, Northwoods, Middle Marches, ?, ?
>An Tir: Madrone, Three Mountains, Lion's Gate, Adiantum
>Atenveldt: Atenveldt, Tir Ysgirth, Sun Dragon, Mons Tonitrus, Twin Moons, 
>Meridies: Iron Mountain, Axemoor, South Downs, ?
>Outlands: Caerthe, al-Barran, Dragonspire, Southern Pass
>Artemesia: Loch Salann, One Thousand Eyes, Sentinel's Keep, Arn Hold
>West, Ansteorra, Caid, Calontir, Drachenwald, Atlantia: ????
>
>I'm also uncertain on what to consider Myrkfaelinn in particualar, shire or
>barony level. While I don't want to start a huge discussion, someone tell me
>if it has the population base of a baronial size group and if it is commonly
>considered on a level with Baronies and Provinces. My impression was that it
>is, but I'd like to hear from some of the Dominions own residents.
>
>Jeff Carnegie / Fionn MacAilein
>fionn at nwlink.com

Ansteorra would be;

Stargate (Houston, Tx) Founded August 1972  Baronial August 1972
Steppes (Dallas, Tx) Founded March 1973  Baronial August 1975
Bjornsborg (San Antonio, Tx) Founded June 1976  Baronial November 1976
Bordermarch (Beaumont/Port Arthur, Tx) Founded Febuary 1977  Baronial
September 1977
Bryn Gwlad (Austin, Tx) Founded November 1976  Baronial  May 1979
Namron (Norman, Ok) Founded Febuary 1977  Baronial November 1979

Sir Burke Kyriell MacDonald
Deputy Kingdom Seneschal for Ansteorra
E-Mail: burkemc at ionet.net


Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:44:56 -0700 (MST)
From: Mary Morman <memorman at oldcolo.com>
Subject: SC - Master Beverly - In Memorium

The news came today that Master Beverly had died.  To many, it marks 
an era of passage in the SCA - the founders are passing one by one
and their loss changes us all.  But to me, it is a very personal
passage.  Master Beverly held a special place in my SCA life, 
and I would like to take a few moments to try to share some of that
specialness with my friends in the SCA.

I met Master Beverly when I was 22. I had been involved in the SCA at
various levels for about six  years at that time.  It was the
summer of 1975, and I was 're-entering' West Kingdom activities after two
years in Montana where there was no SCA.

It's hard to describe the SCA of those years to people who have only seen
its 90's (or even 80's) incarnation.  This was the era when Queen Carol
told us to make tourney clothes out of polyester double knit because it
washed easily and draped so well.  It was a time when, to me, the SCA
meant fighters, and fighting, and watching tournaments.  I had never seen
SCA dancing - although I had heard of it, had never even heard of a
'period' recipe (the West didn't do feasts in those days), and the only
reason I didn't bring potato salad to Crown to eat with my fried chicken
was that I was afraid the eggs would spoil in the heat.

I met Master Beverly at a Crown Tournament at Big Trees Park in the
hills up above Berkeley.  He seemed elderly to me, even then.  But he
found time to talk to a relative newcomer.  We sat and walked and talked
most of the afternoon.  Naturally, we started by talking about the
fighting.  Fighting was what the SCA was all about.  He told me that he
was a Laurel.  I'd never met a Laurel before and wasn't really sure what
it meant.  "I think they made it up to make me feel better since I didn't
fight."  I can still hear him saying that - the amusement, and a little
self-deprecation, clear in his voice.  

In truth, he was the first Laurel of the Society.  And when
I sometimes see the SCA loosing perspective about awards and rank and
honors, I remember Master Beverly and hear his chuckling voice telling me
that 'they' made up the Laurel so that an old man who didn't fight could
still feel appreciated.

The reason why meeting Master Beverly was so very important to me was that
it marked a turning point for me in the SCA.  From perceiving the SCA as,
quite naturally, a group for fighters and their girlfriends, I began, with
his help and a few introductions, to see it as a place where any
interested person could work to create some aspect of the middle ages.  I
began to notice things like tents (he was, after all, Master Beverly
Tentmaker...) and how some looked like the pavillions in an illuminated
manuscript and some looked like army surplus.  I noticed a lady with a
chemise made from some loosely woven white fabric rather than the
prevalent and useful doubleknit.  I began to ask -why- we couldn't cook a
medieval feast rather than take a break for fast food at 12th night and or
have a restaurant banquet after a University of Ithra session.

I wonder sometimes what my life in the SCA would have been if I had not
met Master Beverly that hot summer day.  Would I have begun to notice a
'wider' society on my own?  Would I have grown out of the
'all-fighters-together' society and moved on to join a bridge club like my
mother expected me to?  All I really know, though, is that this
knowledgable, gifted, and delightful man helped to open my eyes to a
brighter and broader SCA - one in which I am still active almost 25 years
later.

And if I'm ever tempted to think that I'm "too old" for the SCA, all I
need to do is remember that Master Beverly was older than I am now when
he attended the First Tournament in Berkeley in 1966.  And every time I
watch a new Laurel made I remember his subtle but enduring influence.

He was a wonderful person. I will always miss him.

Elaina


Subject: ANST - [Fwd: Mistress/Baroness]
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 98 06:12:08 MST
From: Donal & Sosha <catsden at texas.net>
To: Anstie List <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

This is just too funny to confine to the heralds' list. For those who
are wondering, Karina was very, very early in the Laurel Sovereign of
Arms lineup. Alphabet soup, anyone?
Donal

Julien de Montfort wrote:
> > His Majesty has an idea: he wants people with Awards and Grants of
> > Arms [to] be able to put initials indicating as much after their
> > names, and commands us to devise some. We suggest either A.A. and
> > G.A., or preferably Arm. A. and Arm. G.  [Irreverent footnote:
> > Actually, we prefer neither one and think it's a terrible idea, but
> > we will announce these and that should satisfy him. It isn't as if
> > anyone is going to use them.] (Karina of the Far West, 15 Jul 73
> > [42], p. 3)
>
> Hee hee.... priceless. ;-)
>
> Julien
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Seigneur Julien de Montfort                  De sable, seme d'hermines
> "Solum Dice Nullus Sunt Suficio"             d'or, tres amphorae et un
> Canton de Spiaggia Levantina                     caid palissade argent
> julien at spiaggia.org                            http://www.spiaggia.org
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:15:41 -0800
From: Kenneth J Mayer <domus at juno.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Middle Eastern Personas

>If there is such a bias against Middle Eastern personas, I am unaware of it.
>There seems to be bias against Aztec, Amer-Ind and Japanese personas though
>this is somewhat justified if a purists view is held but questionable when
>viewed in the light of the writings of early framers of SCA policy. .

'scuse me? I am directly in touch with many of the original founders of
the SCA, as I am working on a project ("The Annotated History of the
West") ... the whole POINT of the SCA in the early days was to re-create
the atmosphere put forth in the tales of Camelot, Arthur, etc ... Aztecs,
Amerinds, Japanese have nothing to do with this ...

Hirsch


Subject: ANST - Re: ASTR - SCA - 35 year ???
Date: Mon, 03 May 99 09:56:28 MST
From: marsha.greene at mpan.com
To: Ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

>Should the SCA plan to have a 35 year celebration or should the SCA only
>hold one every 10 years with 25 and 75 being special cases?

My initial reaction was to vote for every 10 years, but believe I would
support every 5 years instead.        Baron Michael had some good points.
I would suggest that if the attendance of the event continues to grow each
of the 5 years, then *that*  is your populace vote,... by the attendance.
('If you *hold*  it, they will come!')

I was not in the SCA for the 20 yr. event, but was at 25yr.  I did not
attend 30yr.in AnTir, but if 35 is a bit closer, then I may go.    So, for
me, I may establish a pattern of  *attending*  every 10 years, even though
the event is held every 5years.

As to the comment about the attendance being a bit less at 25th year than
at 20th year, Yes, that may be true.   I was a part of the committee that
ran that 25th year event (Waterbearer Coordinator), and from what I recall,
we were anticipating an attendance around 3000-4000 attendees.  I believe
we had around 2000 attendees, instead.   This drop in attendance was not
due to the event, or the location or the staff; but to a little *real* war
known as 'Gulf Wars' in the Persian Gulf.   A week before TFYC (25th),
national military had been put on readiness status, and while they were
still in the States, many SCA folks in military choose to stay close to
home rather than come to 25th year.  There were a few die-hards who did
come to the Celebration, and were called up in the middle of the event, had
to fly out on the earliest plane, and their friends had to pack up all
their gear and transport it home.    So, I believe the attendance at 25th
year would have surpased 20th year, had not REAL LIFE taken priority.

If the SCA wants to hold a 35yr Celebration, they are already dangerously
close to being too late to put it together.

Bn. Hillary Greenslade   Westgate/Stargate


Subject: Re: Female Knights (fwd)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 05:59:24 EDT
From: JBRMM266 at aol.com
To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org

In a message dated 99-07-01 11:12:04 EDT, Lyanna writes:
<< Now, interestingly enough, as I have heard it, and please correct me if I'm
 wrong but Way Back When - the SCA banned women from fighting at events (they
 could fight at practice though) because historically women didn't fight in
 tournaments.  This was challenged by  Trude (soon to be Sir Trude) who
 researched the issue and found an example of two women who participated in a
 tournament as women (as opposed to chose who disguised themselves in men's
 clothing).  The BoD lifted the ban and she was able to fight at events. >>

That is part of the story; the other part was that the SCA, being an
educational organization, might have lost its tax-exempt status had we
continued to practice gender discrimination.

Donal Mac Ruiseart
(who was around when the changes took place)


Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 15:05:02 -0700
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at efn.org>
Subject: Re: SC - scadianisms

Huette von Ahrens wrote:
> Actually, it is more than a West Kingdom thing.  Caid
> also calls its list ropes "eric".  But then we used to
> be part of the West a long time ago.

We call it the 'Eric' in An Tir also, which surprises me somewhat, here
is the land of "Don't tell us what/how to do it, even if you have been
doing it successfully that way for over thirty years! Let us make our
own mistakes!" An Tir, the sullen adolescent child of the West...

'Lainie


Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 20:44:56 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - A different kind of historical recreation

Lurking Girl wrote:
> For my cooking class, I have been assigned to do a menu which is partially
> based on SCA cooking technology of 20 years ago.  Since the only kitchen
> I was allowed to use at that time was in Barbie's Dream Home, my teacher
> said I should ask people who were around then.  (Unfortunately, those
> I've asked so far don't seem to really notice what they eat at events...)
>
> So--can anyone tell me what might have been served at a typical feast
> in ASXIII?  What were the sources everyone was using?  And what was
> considered bleeding-edge experimentation?

I've only been around for about 18 years. I'm not sure if my experiences
of that time reflect practice of the two years prior.

Sources would include "To the King's Taste", "To The Queen's Taste",
"The Delectable Past", "700 Years of English Cooking", and, of course,
Fab Feasts. I think earlier versions of Cariadoc's Miscellany existed at
the time, and I think I remember seeing some recipes in The Knowne
Worlde Handbook.

As I recall, ladies, at least in Ostgardr, tended to do more research
than the male cooks. A typical guy feast might include roast beef,
possibly with a sauce, a more or less modern onion soup, a bulgur
frumenty dish, bread, cheese, honey and/or herb butter, a salad,
possibly a simple sweet like shortbread or some kind of custard tart.

Feasts planned by the ladies tended to have a bit more recognizable
medieval food. Lots of crustades, darioles, doucetys, etc., various
chicken stews cooked with fruit, a mandatory sauce for the ubiquitous
roast beef (cameline or perhaps mustard being standard issue, I'd say),
cheese goo, loseyns or macrows with butter and cheese, pork and fruit
pies, saffron bread, mustard soup as bastardized in The Delectable Past,
or maybe a split-pea version of cretonnee. Let's not forget Chicken In A
Rock, a.k.a. Icelandic Chicken, various Elizabethan and post-Elizabethan
raisin-cookie-type cakes, and wafers served with whipped cream.

I'd say that the idea of doing foods from the same time period and
location, say, 15th-century Savoy, was pretty rare; a more Generic
Middle Ages (with the odd 16th-17th century dish thrown in for good
measure) was, I think, more common in our area.

Adamantius


Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 18:24:20 -0800
From: "Wanda Pease" <wandapease at bigfoot.com>
Subject: RE: SC - A different kind of historical recreation

> So--can anyone tell me what might have been served at a typical feast
> in ASXIII?  What were the sources everyone was using?  And what was
> considered bleeding-edge experimentation?
>
> Vika

Err... swallowing hard...  Fabulous Feasts, How to Cook Forsoothly,To the
Kings Taste and to the Queen's Taste, Loaves and Fishes, foods from Biblical
Times and The Delectable Past for sources.  Roast Cornish Game hen (hey,
they were cheap and the butcher would cut them in half), Leek soup done with
crushed lasagna noodles instead of potatoes, quiche, roast venison (three
red deer donated by the local Baron of Lauterbach (real, and German), Barley
Pilaf, mushrooms stuffed with chopped meat and herbs, carrot sticks, rolls.
Gee, that doesn't seem like it would take four solid days preparation and
cooking and no sleep... must have been more than that, but the memory goes
after the first 72 hours, and it was almost exactly 20 years.

Regina Romsey, 5th Viscountess Drachenwald


Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:29:12 -0700 (MST)
From: Mary Morman <memorman at oldcolo.com>
Subject: Re: SC - A different kind of historical recreation

> So--can anyone tell me what might have been served at a typical feast
> in ASXIII?  What were the sources everyone was using?  And what was
> considered bleeding-edge experimentation?
>
> Vika

In A.S. XII-XIII I moved from the West (where we did not do feasts) to
Caid (where we did picnics and banquets in restaurants) to the
East/Atlantia where I first met actual SCA feasting.  There were very few
sources available.  The only one I actually remember holding in my hand
was a very early edition of Cariadoc's Renaissance Cookbook Collection.
Food was generally "perioid" rather than what I would now call period.
Roast meat, avoid potatoes and tomatoes, good home brewed mead and beer,
honey saffron quiche, savory toasted cheese, hearty soups and stews with
meat and carrots and barley.

Elaina


Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:39:12 -0600
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - A different kind of historical recreation

At 4:59 PM -0500 11/8/99, Lurking Girl wrote:
>So--can anyone tell me what might have been served at a typical feast
>in ASXIII?  What were the sources everyone was using?  And what was
>considered bleeding-edge experimentation?

I can't speak to typical feasts, but I and some other people were
working from _Two Fifteenth Century Cookbooks_, _Al-Baghdadi_,
_Digby_, Le Menagier, Platina. I'm pretty sure that volume I of my
collection came out earlier than that. I don't think we had any
period German cookbooks, and the Andalusian and Ibn al Mubarrad
hadn't been translated into English yet. By AS XIII I would have
been doing feasts from primary sources for about seven years or so;
I'm not sure if anyone else was doing them earlier than that.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/


Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 22:52:08 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - A different kind of historical recreation

tori at panix.com writes:
<< So--can anyone tell me what might have been served at a typical feast
 in ASXIII? >>

Most modern food that did not include glaring examples of New World food such
as vanilla although potato were served often and tomatoes not infrequently. I
don;t think that too many folks even considered doing authentic period feasts
then although there were people such as His Grace Cariadoc, among others,
boldly doing research and study in the area.

<< What were the sources everyone was using? >>

The hideous Fabulous Feasts and Vehling's Apicius seem to be the 2 sources
that I have heard most often mentioned as a source of receipts.

 <<And what was considered bleeding-edge experimentation?

IMO, roast beef, homemade bread and Carrots Apicius. Hard to believe we have
come so far.

<< Thanks much,
 Vika >>

No problem. I am somewhat amused that the recreationists are already
'recreating' the early years of the SCA in whatever form. Could carpet armor
and Freon helmets be next? :-)

Yours in Service to the Dream and the Kingdom of Aethelmearc,
Ras


Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:56:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: SC - A different kind of historical recreation

Elaina,

What part of Caid did you live in?  Because I was doing
feasts back then and the only banquets in restaurants
that I can remember were in Nordwache
(Fresno/Bakersfield area).  I was doing period
banquets in quite a few church halls in Angels (San
Gabriel Valley). Lyondemere (coastal areas of Los
Angeles) put on many period banquets.  Califia (San Diego) also
put on many period banquets.

Yes, I have to admit the Fab Feasts was my first
period cookbook.  But I soon abandoned it when I was
given Kings Taste and Queens Taste.  They were soon followed
by Dining with William Shakespeare and Pleyn Delit.
My first banquets were take from these last four books.
It wasn't until Duke Cariadoc moved to Caid that I was
exposed to the originals and the concept of actually
redacting my own recipes, for which I will be
eternally grateful to him.

Huette


Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:55:00 -0600
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - A different kind of historical recreation

At 8:44 PM -0500 11/8/99, Philip & Susan Troy wrote:
>Sources would include "To the King's Taste", "To The Queen's Taste",
>"The Delectable Past", "700 Years of English Cooking", and, of course,
>Fab Feasts. I think earlier versions of Cariadoc's Miscellany existed at
>the time, and I think I remember seeing some recipes in The Knowne
>Worlde Handbook.

I believe the  _Miscellany_ was first sold at the twentieth year
celebration. My cookbook collection appeared considerably earlier,
however, so a fair number of primary sources were available to people
who had it. So far as cooks in the East are concerned, I think that
by the date in question Melisande, Brekke, Marion of Edwinstowe,
Bish, Diana, and probably a number of other people as well, were
doing at least some cooking from primary sources.

I'm not sure when the Knowne Worlde Handbook came out, but the
article on cooking in it was quite unreliable--it didn't give
sources, and it looked as though many of the recipes were modern
ethnic cooking.

David Friedman
Professor of Law
Santa Clara University


Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 22:13:31 -0700 (MST)
From: Mary Morman <memorman at oldcolo.com>
Subject: Re: SC - A different kind of historical recreation

I should have made it clear that I merely passed through Caid (one year in
Darachshire) between the West and the East.  I remember doing picnics in
Darach where the ladies made baskets of food that was then raffled off.
The one feast that I remember was after a University of Ithra.  We had a
banquet in a restaurant where Ithra awards and degrees were given (I got
two separate thirds of masters degrees for teaching two classes).  I was
certainly not central to what was going on in the kingdom at that time -
it's great to hear that you were doing feasts then!  Wish I had known.

Elaina


Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 09:51:02 -0800
From: Anne-Marie Rousseau <acrouss at gte.net>
Subject: Re: SC - A different kind of historical recreation

hey all from Anne-Marie
we are asked:
> So--can anyone tell me what might have been served at a typical feast
> in ASXIII?  What were the sources everyone was using?  And what was
> considered bleeding-edge experimentation?

the Madrone Culinary guild had been actively producing several whiz bang
banquets a year at that point (as far as we can tell, MCG is about 21 years
old). We still have complete records of them, as well as several members
who were around then. Shall I post the question to our list?

I know I've been here for about 1988, and we did a lot of perioide feasts,
ie modern ethnic omitting the tomatoes and potatoes. I remember the
"burgundian" red black and gold feast, the first one I did. All out of
"The Cuisnie of the Rose". yum! we also did a "new world" banquet where a
pasta paella type object was very popular, and we learned that aioli does
not expand quite right....:)

We have a cookbook we published from that era...its out of print, but you
can ask anyone in the guild to see it. I keep it as a neat historical
document.

- --AM, who has since seen the light and now follows the true path, but does
indeed miss the days of oiseaux faux aux pruneaux :)...


Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 00:57:06 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - A different kind of historical recreation

> So--can anyone tell me what might have been served at a typical feast
> in ASXIII?  What were the sources everyone was using?  And what was
> considered bleeding-edge experimentation?
>
> Vika

I didn't have any period sources available for my first feast, so I winged
it.  Danish apple pies (not period not pies, but a crowd pleaser I haul out
every so often), pickled whiting, pickled eggs, peas, carrots, steamed
lettuce(probably period, but no original source), marinated beef, a couple
kinds of bread, and beer.  The whiting and the lettuce were considered
risque.

I must have done something right, because a couple of Pennsic-bound fighters
from Caid wanted to take me home.

Later, I tossed in things from Pleyn Delight, To the King's Taste, To the
Queen's Taste and a set of hand written recipes cribbed from a number of
sources.  I've never used my copy of Fabulous Feasts, but I found one in the
used bookstore and added it to the shelf.

Bear


Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 07:21:25 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - A different kind of historical recreation

"Decker, Terry D." wrote:
> I didn't have any period sources available for my first feast, so I winged
> it.  Danish apple pies (not period not pies, but a crowd pleaser I haul out
> every so often), pickled whiting, pickled eggs, peas, carrots, steamed
> lettuce(probably period, but no original source), marinated beef, a couple
> kinds of bread, and beer.  The whiting and the lettuce were considered
> risque.

Geez, I don't even remember for sure what I served at my first feast,
but it would have been almost exactly fourteen years ago (and <hahhah> I
also served as autocrat for that event; at least people knew where to
find me).

As I recall there was a creamy saffron-flavored soup from one of the
Michelle Berriedale-Johnston books, stewed steaks (supposed to be mutton
but actually beef in this case) in a broth with white wine and lemons,
from some vaguely late-period source, but I forget which, a modernish
spinach-egg-cheese pie, a salad, spatchcocked chickens broiled with
breadcrumbs, butter and mustard, supposed by Theodora FitzGibbon to be
16th-century Welsh, maybe a mushroom dish. Other stuff too, probably
between nine and twelve dishes overall.

My second feast was Apician, within six months of the first, as I recall...

Adamantius


Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:15:52 -0400
From: "Siegfried Heydrich" <baronsig at peganet.com>
Subject: Re: SC - RE:SC- Brizzare Hobby-NOT! OT

Akim wrote:
> I do know for a fact that the prestigious British College of Arms is very well
> acquainted with our work in heraldry and regards us very seriously. One of our
> senior heralds in Meridies was offered a job by the Lion King of Arms himself
> some years back.

And Kiri wrote:
> I can also add that the Norroy Ulster King of Arms actually attended a College
> of Arms symposium some years back as a guest of honor, and was quite
> complimentary of our work...I know 'cause I autocratted the event (I was
> Triton  PH for Atlantia at the time).

    Yes, heraldically, at least, we seem to have a very good reputation,
especially after Da'aud decided that we were no longer going to protect the
entire universe of Armory, real and imagined. When I was Lymphad
(submissions) herald for Trimaris, I had some submissions returned for
conflicts with imaginary (and extremely obscure) Sci-fi/fantasy/D&D
characters. Needless to say, I was just a tad miffed. I sent out an open
letter questioning this (in my own inimitable style), and got leapt upon by
the entire College for daring to question the wisdom of the ancients.

    The gist of the arguments in favor of protecting everything, once you
got past the sophistries, was that in the UK, a SCAdian could be imprisoned
for simply displaying his SCA Arms. And that the SCA could be sued by said
imprisoned person for misleading them, etc. Therefore, to avoid this, we had
to be free of conflict with EVERYTHING. Yes, I know, but I'm just relaying
the argument.

    I then had the extreme bad manners to contact Norrey, Blue Mantle, and a
couple of other mundane heralds, inquiring of their policies regarding this
matter. I did NOT mention the SCA, and kept the description of the situation
rather generic. They were all kind enough to write back, saying that as long
as we didn't erect permanent monuments (so to speak) with our Arms
inscribed, they really couldn't care less. As far as they were concerned, it
would be the same as if we were a troupe of actors. As one put it, they
weren't going to arrest an actor for saying he was Henry V.

    Three of them also included personal notes, asking if this was in
reference to the SCA, which rather surprised me, as I hadn't brought the
Society up at all. I corresponded with a couple for a bit; they had a rather
positive view of the Society, but were rather amused that we took ourselves
so seriously. They simply regarded us as a harmless troupe of re-enactors,
generally fun, but inclined to be a bit pedantic at times. And BTW, when a
mundane Herald tells you you're pedantic, you're REALLY pedantic!

    As I was leaving office, I forwarded these letters to the College, and
it was like a bomb went off! Oh, my god, was I EVER glad to be out of
office!!!! It was like an airborne battalion of foxes just dropped into a
chicken ranch. But I was gone, so it wasn't MY problem any more . . .

    However, even in death my power to annoy remained undiminished! Da'aud
used my letters to support The Bombshell, the decree to establish a codex of
protected armory and ignore the rest of it all. Heh, heh. As a result, it
became MUCH easier to get Arms registered.

    The really amusing part came a few years later; just before I took over
as Triskele Herald, I went to Pennsic, and (of course) worked the help table
there. After a bit it came out that it was I who had submitted the letters
that Da'aud had used to support the Bombshell, and boy, was my name mud
after that! A few Heralds were very appreciative that my efforts had
resulted in a massive reduction of their workload, but most of the others
looked at me like I had just pissed in the kiddy pool. Oh, well, we all have
our cross to bear . . .

    Sieggy


From: "Ashland S Henderson" <ashland at ccnet.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA origin story
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:43:38 -0700

gtv_13 at my-deja.com wrote in message <8h8e4k$l8m$1 at nnrp1.deja.com>...
>So how did it come about? I originally heard about the Party, then only
>recently did I hear that it came about through the Medieval Studies
>Dept. at Berkeley.  Would those of you who were in on the Beginning
>please clarify?

Everybody has variations of the story, but here's the way I remember it.
Diana was going into the peace corps. She was a student in medieval
studies at Mills College and was also active in the local science fiction
and fantasy fandom circles in the San Francisco bay area. She and
her roommates decided to have a tournament in their back yard so
she would be the only one in the peace corps who had ever had a
tournament in her yard. She certainly got some of the idea from her
friends Ken (Duke Fulk de Wyvern) and Dave (Duke Siegfried von
Hoflichskeit). They were in their early 20's then and had, for their own
amusement, made shields of steel backed with leather and padded
maces. Using fencing masks, they had at least once borrowed the
back yard to practice fighting.

Once the idea of having a tournament got started Diana sent out
announcements to everyone who might possibly be interested. I still
have my copy (framed now) and have posted it on my web site at
www.maceanruig.homestead.com (follow the links to the SCA).
A bunch of us came, including five or six from the dorms at San
Francisco State College. Of that bunch, I stayed, along with Count
Stefan de Lorraine and Duke Henrik ap Havn.  Everyone had fun
at the event (well, almost everyone), ending with a march down
Telegraph Avenue in Berkeley singing Greensleeves, since that
was the only medieval song we all knew.

From there, one event led to another and here we are. I can still
remember a conversation between Henrik, Fulk and I about the
future of the SCA and none of us could see it lasting longer than
two or three years. (good prophets weren't we?)


Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 17:53:19 -0500
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Period personna

At 3:12 AM -0400 6/6/00, allilyn at juno.com wrote:
>  Your Grace, I have been longing to hear the story of how a good
>Maghrebi persona comes to have a good Welsh name.  It's bedtime, so tell,
>please?

It's in the Miscellany (from an old T.I. article)--the only article 
in the Miscellany that wasn't written by me or my lady.

The short version is:

1. I was loosely basing my persona on Carahue of Mauritania, and 
somehow thought "Cariadoc" was a variant of "Carahue."

2. I then got a friend who was a professional linguist to get a 
friend of his who was an Arabist to put together a plausible Arabic 
name which might have been mispronounced "Cariadoc" by Europeans, on 
the model of Avicenna, Saladin, etc.

3. The Arabic means "He of exquisite taste."

David/Cariadoc
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/


Subject: [SCA History]
Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 00:45:34 -0400
From: rmhowe <MMagnusM at bellsouth.net>

For those interested in the origins of the SCA:
http://wrenhaven.uark.edu/Siegfrd.html

It's LONG, but if you REALLY Want to know where the SCA comes from,
this will do it.


Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 15:24:00 EST
From: KallipygosRed at aol.com
Subject: SC - RE: SC-Thanksgiving/SCA & Europe

Lord Ras said:
<<The focus of the SCA is NOT Europe. It is 'western cultures and the 
cultures they came into contact with.' 

While many folks say this is 'Europe,' Corpora is silent on the matter and 
Hillary the founder of the SCA has repeatedly stated throughout the years 
that such a restriction was never meant despite those that appear to want 
this to be so in the current middle ages>>

< <A HREF="http://www.sca.org/"><Society for Creative Anachronism, Inc.</A>
http://www.sca.org/
 
"The Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA) is an international organization 
dedicated to researching and recreating pre-17th-century European history. 
All persons interested in such study are invited to use these pages to obtain 
information about the SCA." 

>From the official SCA website Home Page. These two lines have sparked more 
argument in the game than I care to think about. But it does say "European" 
and not Western Civilization, or Western Culture, unfortunately. Also, 
unfortunately, there are those within the game who feel that because of these 
two lines they can argue that there is no reason to allow other cultures to 
be represented, and that people who do specialize in the study of the other 
cultures are just not playing the game "correctly". It has come up time and 
tima again on every SCA list to which I belong (5). When I attended a speech 
given by three of the original four members who started the SCA in California 
many years ago, they too, were somewhat at odds with each other about the 
scope of the culture to be represented. Originally, remember, they had thrown 
a party for a retiring member of University who had specialized in European 
Midevial Literature, and the SCA was born out of the good time they had 
recreating it for that party. When they incorporated they did their best to 
maintain a "vague" aspect to it all. They were not business majors or 
business teachers, they were lit teachers and students; mid 20s to 30s. Two 
of the members at the speech said that incorporating was the worst mistake, 
they felt, that had ever been done, because it turned the "dream" into a 
"business venture"; but it had been necessary for insurance and legal 
reasons. I got the distinct impression that they were a bunch of misfit 
students that had wanted more to bash each other with sticks and kidnap 
wenches at campsites than someone worried about whether their "intent" would 
be misconstrued years later. Yes, they agreed that the intent originally was 
to do re-enacts of history in Europe, but they felt that had been just a 
"focus" point, a starting point, if you will. All agreed though, that no 
matter what the "intent" was, there now exists the "is"; which happen to be 
these two lines. All also agreed that it was unfortunate that many people who 
play, including peerage, consider the words more important than the aspect of 
the game, and deride people who attempt to play "outside the corporate 
stance". One remarked on a kingdom he knew where the peerage will not award 
you if you are not of the appropriate European persona. Their concensus was 
that at this point, BOD has to change the articles to incorporate a wider 
stance, or each kingdom passes their own laws amending the stance. It is 
easier to do kingdom level than to get the BOD to do anything timely. So many 
kingdoms have overridden the statement. But it really depends on where you 
are, and the royalty viewpoint of it.

They also went on to say that these things happen as a company, venture 
grows. And as the dream grows it changes a little each year. The first year 
they had a group in Arizona they had 30 people at a camping event and thought 
it gigantic. At the Estrella we were at, our gate toll for a three day count 
was something like 8,000 people; which they remarked was greater than London 
and its two other larger cities combined during "period". They thought that 
fact was downright staggering. So do I. 

So, basically, I guess, what I'm trying to say is, I agree with the founding 
fathers and mothers of the SCA (taken from my notes): "Understanding of the 
past makes it more real and closer to us. So, recreate to the best of your 
ability and research; but for God's sake have fun doing it. This isn't 
supposed to be homework. It's supposed to be enriching and fulfilling, 
sharing play. Enjoy yourself with it. Create the you that you always wanted 
to be. Knowledge is power. And it irritates the heck out of people."

Lars

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	SCA-hist3-msg	Page 50 of 50