SCA-fence-hist-msg - 11/19/99 History of fencing and rapier combat in the SCA. NOTE: See also the files: Hst-SCA-Fence-art, fencing-msg, p-rapier-msg, Mer-rap-sus-art, bucklers-msg, SCA-hist-msg, SCA-Stories-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with seperate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the orignator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous mark.s.harris@motorola.com stefan@florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Subject: Re: ANST - Re: [STEPS] Proposal for a fourth Peerage(long) (nl) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 22:03:56 JST From: jonwillowpel@juno.com To: ansteorra@Ansteorra.ORG On Thu, 30 Sep 1999 18:58:28 -0500 "maddie teller-kook" writes: > For a rapier fighter to be considered for a laurel, I (this is my opinion).. > would expect that person to be heavily involved in researching the fighting > style... teaching at king's colleges or other teaching venues, writing > papers; researching/making armor and clothing, weapons and other related > arts and sciences for that fighting style. And again, teaching this to > others. I would NOT consider someone who only wins tournaments. > > Meadhbh In the past we have not put Rapier fighting under the Laurel because we have been hoping for it to get put under knighthood or separate category under the Chivalry. It is a fighting art. A long time ago my husband and I had the choice of putting rapier fighting under the Laurel. Master Tivar was voted into the Laurel and the Pelican for his work in the rapier community. Duke Jonathan , then King Jonathan, gave him the choice of what he wanted. Jonathan explained that if Rapier fighting was put under the Laurel it would never be thought of as part of the Chivalry. Master Tivar chose the Pelican. I feel this was the right decision even today and hope in near future that rapier fighters will be recognize as members of the Chivalry. ( As a historical note Duke Jonathan de Laufyson was the king that signed in the first light fighting rules. Duchess Willow de Wisp Subject: ANST - Some rapier history (was:Proposal for a fourth Peerage) Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 16:29:49 MST From: Chris and Elisabeth Zakes To: ansteorra@Ansteorra.ORG I'm afraid Her Grace has her facts a bit mixed up. At 07:53 PM 10/2/99 -0700, you wrote: >In the past we have not put Rapier fighting under the Laurel because we >have been hoping for it to get put under knighthood or separate category >under the Chivalry. It is a fighting art. Granted that rapier is a fighting art, there have never been more than a small minority of the Belts who would be willing to see it included as part of the Chivalry, either as a "regular" Knighthood, Master of Arms or a separate category. >A long time ago my husband and >I had the choice of putting rapier fighting under the Laurel. Master >Tivar was voted into the Laurel and the Pelican for his work in the >rapier community. Duke Jonathan , then King Jonathan, gave him the choice >of what he wanted. I was never formally offered a choice between the Laurel and the Pelican. There was discussion among various peers and the Crown about whether the work I'd been doing in developing rapier combat was more suited to the Laurel (research, development and teaching of a period fighting style) or to the Pelican (administrative work in writing the rules, setting up the marshallate, etc.) >Jonathan explained that if Rapier fighting was put >under the Laurel it would never be thought of as part of the Chivalry. >Master Tivar chose the Pelican. I feel this was the right decision even >today and hope in near future that rapier fighters will be recognize as >members of the Chivalry. I don't think that's any more likely now than it was 20+ years ago when I got my Pelican. >( As a historical note Duke Jonathan de Laufyson was the king that signed in >the first light fighting rules.) That depends on how you define 'first". Yes, the first set of rapier combat rules for the Kingdom of Ansteorra were signed into law by the first Crown, Jonathan and Willow. However, the *Principality* of Ansteorra had had rapier fighting rules for over a year before we became a kingdom; our parent kingdom of Atenveldt had official rapier fighting rules as well. The first set of SCA-wide rapier fighting rules were put out by Duke Andrew of Seldom Rest in AS XII (1977). -Tivar Moondragon Subject: Re: ANST - Some rapier history (was:Proposal for a fourth Peerage) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 12:11:57 MST From: jonwillowpel@juno.com To: ansteorra@Ansteorra.ORG Master Tivar is right but he missed a point. Duke Jonathan was the Atenvelt king that signed them in when we were a Principality. Princes cannot create combat rules without the approval and signature of the King. Simon was the Prince who wrote them but Jonathan took the responsibility for them. I would also add he took a lot of flack for them. Do any of you remember the inquiry? Well we were offered a deal that it wouldn't happen if Jonathan backed down from his support of the light community. Also there was the board meeting where they were going to vote to outlaw light weapons on the field . It was Jonathan that spilled the beans and called the light community about what was happening. As for getting a rapier fighting accepted as marshal art rather than a dramatic presentation Master Tivar and the leaders of the rapier community have done that. The fact that some form of light fighting is in most of the kingdom show that they are making progress. Many of the young knights have grown up with light fighting and think of it as valid marshal art and hold it in high respect. . Master Tivar do not give up! I believe in your vision and think you are closer to it than you realize. As for the differences between Master Tivar and ourselves. I believe that they stem from our communications styles. Master Trivar and Duke Jonathan have always needed a translator and back then they were really out of sinc. I know what we thought we were saying and appears that we were as clear as mud. Master Tivar and Duke Jonathan and myself were on different sides of political fence and because of that saw things from different angles. Duchess Willow de Wisp Subject: Re: ANST - Some rapier history Oops! Tivar is right! Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 14:09:06 MST From: jonwillowpel@juno.com To: ansteorra@Ansteorra.ORG Oops!! I am afraid that Master Tivar was right. Jonathan came home and cleared things up. First there had been no "official" rules in Ansteorra under Atenvelt. Ansteorra had created rules but they had never been signed by the King of Atenvelt or the Earl Marshal of Atenvelt. Jonathan believes that Sir Dennis of the Titans who was the Earl Marshall at the time did not allowed them. Therefore the rules that we were using were not legal. We could get away with that because we were so far away and didn't care what Atenvelt thought. The first Legal rules were those signed by his Grace as King of Ansteorra and Sir Karl as Earl Marshal of Ansteorra. It was these rules that got them into trouble. The thing that got me confused was the Principality award honoring light weapons fighters. This award was the Principality's version of the White Scarf. This was the first award for rapier fighting. Prince Simon and Princess Tessa created the award but King Jonathan de Laufyson was the Aten king who approved it. Remember all awards have to be signed by the king. Master Tivar was the first member of the Principality's award and when Jonathan and I , as first King and Queen , set up the White Scarfs we made him the first White Scarf and so maintained the order as created by Simon and Tessa. We had to change part of the name to make the heralds happy but it was one of the few orders that were carried over to the Kingdom of Ansteorra and owes it origin to Sir Simon and Mistress Tessa. Willow (with egg on her face) Subject: Re: ANST - Some rapier history (was:Proposal for a fourth Peerage) Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 21:12:25 MST From: Chris and Elisabeth Zakes To: ansteorra@Ansteorra.ORG At 01:34 PM 10/5/99 -0700, you wrote: >Master Tivar is right but he missed a point. > >Duke Jonathan was the Atenvelt king that signed them in when we were a >Principality. Princes cannot create combat rules without the approval >and signature of the King. Simon was the Prince who wrote them but >Jonathan took the responsibility for them. That's not how *I* remember things... I was appointed Stargate Rapier Marshal in the Fall of AS XIII (1977) and Principality Rapier Marshal sometime in 1978. I know there were rapier tournaments fought before then, however. That suggests that we were operating with *some* kind of rules, even if they hadn't been approved by Atenveldt. >I would also add he took a lot >of flack for them. Do any of you remember the inquiry? Well we were >offered a deal that it wouldn't happen if Jonathan backed down from his >support of the light community. That sounds rather unlikely. The Board meeting that approved rapier fighting in the SCA was September 11th 1979 and Earl Kevin Perigryne, the Society Marshal published a set of Society Rapier Rules In October of that year. The Court of Inquiry wasn't held until November 10th almost two months *after* the Board's approval of rapier fighting. >Also there was the board meeting where >they were going to vote to outlaw light weapons on the field . It was >Jonathan that spilled the beans and called the light community about what >was happening. > >As for getting a rapier fighting accepted as marshal art rather than a >dramatic presentation Master Tivar and the leaders of the rapier >community have done that. The fact that some form of light fighting is >in most of the kingdom show that they are making progress. Many of the >young knights have grown up with light fighting and think of it as valid >marshal art and hold it in high respect. . Master Tivar do not give up! >I believe in your vision and think you are closer to it than you realize. Dragging this (briefly) back towards the original topic, I should point out that I am *not* in favor of a peerage for rapier fighting. By the Renaissance, knighthoods were given out for military leadership or "service to the state", not for individual fighting ability. (snip) and from a later posting... >Oops!! >I am afraid that Master Tivar was right. Jonathan came home and cleared >things up. >First there had been no "official" rules in Ansteorra under Atenvelt. >Ansteorra had create rules but they had never been signed by the King of >Atenvelt or the Earl Marshal of Atenvelt. Jonathan believes that Sir >Dennis of the Titans who was the Earl Marshall at the time did not >allowed them. I'm not so sure of that. I have a copy of a set of Atenveldt Rules signed by Sir Dennis. It is, unfortuantely, not dated and there is no Crown signature, but it's filed between a letter from October of 1977 and one from January 1979. That implies that there *were* official Atenveldt rules sometime in 1978. >Therefore the rules that we were using were not legal. We >could get away with that because we were so far away and didn't care what >Atenvelt thought. The first Legal rules were those signed by his Grace >as King of Ansteorra and Sir Karl as Earl Marshal of Ansteorra. It was >these rules that got them into trouble. > >The thing that got me confused was the Principality award honoring light >weapons fighters. This award was the Principality's version of the White >Scarf. This was the first award for rapier fighting. Prince Simon and >Princess Tessa created the award but King Jonathan de Laufyson was the >Aten king who approved it. Again, I'm not entirely sure of that. I *do* recall that it was TRM Theo and Selene who were on the throne when the first White Scarf was given out, but they *had* just succeded TRM Jonathan and Willow, so your chronology may be correct. >Remember all awards have to be signed by the >king. Master Tivar was the first member of the Principality's award and >when Jonathan and I , as first King and Queen , set up the White Scarfs >we made him the first White Scarf and so maintained the order as created >by Simon and Tessa. I'm afraid you're mistaken on that. The White Scarf was not restructured until TRM Lloyd and Joycelyn were on the throne, early in 1980. -Tivar Moondragon Edited by Mark S. Harris SCA-fence-hist-msg 5