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Outl-hist-msg - 3/10/13


Histories of the Kingdom of the Outlands.


NOTE: See also the files: SCA-hist1-msg, Aten-hist-msg, SCA-stories1-msg, SCA-in-books-msg, placenames-msg, vanity-plates-msg, you-know-msg.





This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.


This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org


I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.


The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.


Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).


Thank you,

   Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                         Stefan at florilegium.org



From: sandradodd at aol.com (SandraDodd)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Courtesy and Crisis (repost)

Date: 6 Oct 1994 14:14:03 -0400


I just posted something on "Re: If the SCA's broken, what's your top 5

things to fix?" about expecting board members to be honorable and

chivalrous. Then I found Arval's repost of this article on courtesy.


My personal position has been interpreted by many as plastered to the

conservative wall.  For now I'm just going to ask people to consider this:

When we had a king and queen in the Outlands whom many of us considered

were being dishonorable on the throne, six of us (all the former kings and

queens at that time, as it was the fourth reign) took action to ask them

to resign, and the ultimate result was that their reign was shortened, and

we were all banished (not for long, but it's an exciting thing to have on

my SCA resume <g>).  


AElflaed of Duckford

scourge of kings (and board members) who don't sit up straight and pay

attention [No, I guess scourging isn't sweet and courteous enough.  How

about gentle counselor of kings and board members...?   No, I'm not always

that gentle...]



From: SandraDodd at aol.com (10/19/94)

To: markharris

Mail*Link® SMTP               banishment



It's a *really* long story, but we asked them in writing, with a copy to the

other peers of the realm, asking them all to keep it confidential among

peers. Some peers didn't like what we were doing (a minority) and it all got

put before the board, Hilary tried to negotiate a settlement, Greyraven got

involved and mucked things up worse, they were made to step down at the end

of the tournament to choose their successors, and we were banished from the

opening court of that day to the end of their reign (later that day),

banishment from the presence, because we had offended them, and so we hung

out on the sidelines without regalia (which we had ceremoniously divested

ourselves of in court when we were banished, having known what was up and so

dressed up like we were going to play strip poker).  For the first time in a

couple of months, we were able to tell people what was going on.  Since we

had asked the peers to keep it among peers, we had been refusing to give gory

gossipy details to non-peers, but with our titles withheld and all (however

banishment was set up in those times), we were non-peers for the time being,

and we spilled the whole story with great glee and gusto to anyone who asked.

One of the things which had happened was there had been a formal hearing

(Hilary came to Denver) at which a couple of true instances had been examined

without using the true names of the principals.  Johan von Balduinsek had

been referred to in those procedings as "Joe Bob" and so for our banishment

time he was Joe-Bob, Artan was Jeff-Bob, Gunwaldt was Keith-Bob...


Someday if we're in the same place at the same time, I can tell you stories.

(Or ask Gunwaldt someday.  He's more likely to be hanging out down there

with time to shoot the breeze.)





From: kballar at mirac.unm.edu (Kathryn Ballard CIRT)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: lists of former royalty

Date: 11 Dec 1995 15:27:53 GMT

Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque


joan nicholson (gryphon at caverns.COM) wrote:

: The Outlands keeps a full record of all the Outlandish Royals at:

: http://history.outlands.sca.org/Contents1.html


:                                      Prydwen


The above site is still under construction, and the list available there

does not give the exact date of Coronations.  A complete list with all

the dates can be found with the herald reports under my Outlands pages.


http://www.unm.edu/~kballar/outlands.html       or directly k&qs.html


Kathryn of Iveragh, Wimble Herald, Outlands


Kathryn Ballard              

UNM CIRT IBM Systems              

Email: kballar at unm.edu    WWW:  http://www.unm.edu/~kballar/



From: sandradodd at aol.com (SandraDodd)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Sir vs. Master

Date: 13 Dec 1995 11:19:44 -0500


<< This has caused some difficulty over the last 30 years when on occasion

the Masters decide to prove that they aren't in fealty by fighting on the

"wrong" side of wars. But that's another story.>>


We've had knights do that (one recently) but never a Master of Arms.


<<Does anyone of the Caidan chivalry who frequents the bridge care to

comment on this?  Are there other kingdoms with similar traditions of not

allowing creation of new peers of a type recognized in Corpora for many



The Outlands is nearly ten years old and hasn't made a Master of Arms.

I've had kings tell  me they would not do it, and while they could manage

to pull that off, if someone REALLY wanted to be a Master we would point

at the place in Corpora that says the king may offer someone membership in

the Order of Chivalry, and the candidate chooses whether to be a knight or

a master.  What actually is said is, "Will you accept knighthood..."  

That's what was said when Gunwaldt was offered, very long ago (1977?) and

he said "no."  That's the way people became masters of arms (and perhaps

would again, if any were to have wanted to do so)--the guy had to  take

the risk that the king would say, "Okay then, NEXT?" instead of "Will you

accept the rank of Master of Arms?" or whatever.  


At one time long, long ago, from which days few are left to tell in our

kingdom, knighthood was not as well respected as it is now.  We were

living with history from the beginning.  Outlanders now are not faced with

very many living bad examples, and so the option to be a knight looks

better to them in A.S. XXX than it would have in A.S.XI.  The average is

SO much higher than even Master Gunwaldt's very-Viking squire accepted

knighthood as his first choice.  


It wouldn't bother me at all one way or the other, if the option is

exercised or not.  The active presence of Master Gunwaldt Gulbjorn (my

lord husband) after all these years has served to spur knights to greater

glory. If they want to feel they're better than Masters of Arms, they

have a high mark to aim for in the Outlands.   Ironic, I suppose, but very

good for the kingdom.  


I'm proud of the high expectations people have of knights, and all peers,

in the Outlands, and I'm proud of the lengths people go to here to meet

those expectations.


AElflaed of Duckford



From: Catherine Hensley <hensley at lims1.lanl.gov>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: YKYITSCAW...

Date: 18 Jun 1996 20:05:48 GMT

Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory


djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:

>In article <4pu0cn$95m at news.ccit.arizona.edu>,

>Jason Kolton <kolton at arizona.edU> wrote:

>>...Basically a deer crossing >sign.

>On the other hand, I hear that in Outlands, where a stag is the

>major charge on all the kingdom badges, they go around in the

>mountains painting little crowns on all the deer crossing signs.

>Anybody from Outlands able to verify this?


Actually, the Outlands kingdom device *is* a deer crossing sign, with a

few additions (the deer is green, not black, and its antlers may be

silver <I really should know that>, plus a crown, laurel wreath, border).

Also, the kingdom badge is the same deer and border.  You'll see it on

many Outlands vehicles.


For ease of application, and also for speed, the crowns that are pasted

on deer crossing signs are actually wide green tape cut in the shape of a

crown.  Stop the car on the way to an event, slap that crown up there,

and be on your way before anyone in the State Police catches you. <g>  

This stunt seems to have started with House Ivarson, as far as I know,

and has since spread.  (Lief Ivarson <sp?> is an Outlands duke, now

living in Atenvelt.)


Aithne, Anlieplic Dun, Outlands



From: sandradodd at aol.com (SandraDodd)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Names of Kingdoms?

Date: 7 Sep 1996 15:05:54 -0400


In old Atenveldt days, the barony (then all of the Phoenix area) was

called Atenveldt and the rest of the kingdom (a few groups in Arizona,

plus Caerthe, Great River, Stargate, Steppes, and not much more at first,

was "the Outlands" (meaning "not Phoenix").  In those days, there were not

Kingdom boundaries as there are now.  There were states which were not in

any kingdom.  Those assignments were made in the late 1970's, and the term

"Outlands" was around since mid-70's.


When the Outlands formed up as a region, the boundary was set at the

Arizona border.  This meant that the other groups in Arizona, including

Tir Ysgithr, which were at one time referred to as "the Outlands" were no

longer part of that.  It's about that time the "the Principality of the

Sun" slipped into existence, probably in part to cover that lack of

terminology to cover non-barony-of-Atenveldt which wasn't in another

principality (Meridies, Ansteorra or Outlands).  


Word came back in November/December of the first year the Outlands was a

principality that the name was unacceptable to the College of Arms.  

There was an officers' meeting the morning after the investiture of

Heinrich, the second prince, at which this was discussed.  I was

newly-made principality seneschal.  The Herald was directed to submit

"Outenlendes," an attempt at Middle English.  He wanted "Utanwayard" and

nobody at the meeting could stand it.   He was instructed to submit that

as backup/second choice, but, we later found out, he didn't.


Utanwayard was passed.  Nothing good every came of it except that in the

principality laws an advisory council was named, and called the

Utanwayardenmoot.   People still said "Outlands."


A couple of years later the formal request for a name restoration went

through, and I was sitting at the table at the board meeting (as Steward)

when the Laurel King of Arms was preparing to explain why he was planning

to reject it.  As well as I can remember, this was the conversation:


"What is it 'OUT' of though?"

I said, "The same thing the West is West of, the East is East of and the

Middle's in the Middle of."


We won the appeal.


AElflaed of Duckford



From: dlblanc at earthlink.net (Donald L. Blanchard)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Collecting Scadian Folklore

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:54:20 GMT


On 8 Mar 1997 18:31:02 GMT, bekka1 at ix.netcom.com(rebecca fildes) wrote:

>I am (and have been for quite a while) trying to collect Scadian

>folklore and folksong (or should that be 'filksong').


Most gentle Lady:


I am newly subscribed to Rialto, so I know not whether this tale has been told

before. I have found, however, that few now active in my Barony have heard of

the story, so I suspect it may not be widely known elsewhere.  The tale is true,

and I will tell it to you, as best my failing memory allows, just as it was told

to me so many years ago, by someone who was actually there.


The Barony of Caerthe may not be one of the oldest baronies in the Known World;

there must be one or two hands of baronies that preceeded it.  Yet it may be the

oldest, perchance the only Barony whose origins are truly lost in antiquity.  (I

joined the Barony in June of Anno Societatus VIII, being 1973 of the Christian

Era, and the tale was already old when it was told to me.)


Caerthe was founded by a High School Medieval Club in the area of Denver,

Colorado. (How the group learned of the S.C.A. was not related to me.)  It was

the policy of the Board of Directors at that time that a legal agent be

appointed for every state in which a barony was founded, whose responsibility it

was to register the Corporation with the local Secretary of State.  (In those

days, a barony was the smallest, and I believe the only sized branch which the

B.O.D. chartered.)  The High School Medieval Club's faculty advisor was

unwilling to assume this responsibility, and there existed no other member with

sufficient years to pursue such legal matters.


While Caerthe thus functioned in a state of legal limbo, a lady from the local

Denver Area Science Fiction Association (DASFA), one Judith de Beaumont (later

Mistress Judith de Beaumont, O.P.) chanced to attend an SF convention out in the

Land of the Mists, at which was staged an S.C.A. demo.  Upon returning to her

homeland, Judith wrote a missive to the Board of Directors asking if she could

establish a branch here in Colorado.  As she was the first adult from which the

BOD had received correspondence, they immediately sent her a return missive,

stating that a barony already existed, that its name was Caerthe, and that she

was Seneschal (i.e. legal agent).


Now Judith de Beaumont is a very gracious lady, and has done much in the service

of the Society (it was she who ultimately recruited me into the Barony), but

tact and diplomacy, particularly when dealing with tempermental teenagers, was

not a dominant feature of her personality.  It is reported only that when she

called the Baroness of Caerthe and told her (the Baroness) that she (Judith) was

the new Seneschal, the Baroness threw the proverbial fit.  Suffice it to tell

that neither the (former) Baroness nor her followers has never been seen since.


Thus was it left for Judith to recruit an entirely new membership for the

Barony, which she found primarily within the membership of DASFA (the SF group).

Now, it happens that there was one girl who was a member of DASFA who was also a

member (albeit a peripheral one) of the High School Medieval Club; it was she

from whom I first heard this tale.  Regrettably, she was not present at the

meeting in which the Barony's name was chosen, nor when its device was created,

and thus has no knowledge of the meaning or derivation of the name "Caerthe."

(It is widely believed that the name derives in part from the Welsh word 'caer,'

taken to mean a stone fortress -- and that the Chief embattled of the Barony's

device represents the battlements to be found on such an edifice, but this is

and forever shall remain pure speculation.)


Thus the true origins of the Barony of Caerthe and the meaning of its name are

genuinely lost in antiquity; it is my honest and humble belief that no person in

the Known World knows more than I have here related.


Written by my hand on this the Eleventh day of March in the year XXXI of the



Louis leBlanc, O.L.      |  Donald L. Blanchard

Barony of Caerthe        |  dlblanc at earthlink.net

Kingdom of the Outlands  |  Denver, Colorado, USA



From: "Jeanne Stapleton" <jstaplet at adm.law.du.edu>

Organization: Univ. of Denver, College of Law

To: nweders at mail.utexas.edu (ND Wederstrandt), ansteorra at eden.com

Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 17:21:04 -700 MST

Subject: Re: Lion of Ansteorra


The noble lady Clare asks:

> I am curious since the concept of the Lion originated for us from

> Atenveldt, how it is handled to our neighbors to the West?  Does the

> award get handed out automatically or do they skip reigns.  Did

> Artemsia and the Outlands continue the tradition and how have they

> handled when and how they give it out.


I do not know what Artemisia's award structure is to be.  The

Outlands does not have a Lion (think about the initials for just a

sec...Lion Of the Outlands...whoops...). I am not sure why this

is so, not being thoroughly versed in the lore of my adoptive

kingdom.  What we do have it the Walker of the Way (WOW :-))

for those who embody the ideals of the Dream (tm).


Now, *An Tir* on the other hand adopted and adapted the Lion of An

Tir in the (second?) reign of Tjorkill and Hlutwige.  I'm not sure

how that came about exactly, but I suspect they came to know of the

idea via Master Korwyn Ariannaid, who was living in the same barony

at the time.  Anyway, it has *not* been given every reign; I'm not

sure why some Crowns chose to bestow it and others didn't.  I don't

think it's because they felt there was no one worthy of the award.  


I was very fortunate to be present when our predecessors bestowed the

Lion of An Tir on Baroness Amanda Kendal of Westmorland from Lion's

Gate at the Council of Crowns in An Tir. Duke Inman was on the

throne of Ansteorra and was present, as was Baron Hossein; they both

came forward to be part of the ceremony, which I know meant a great

deal to Amanda.


I was even more fortunate to be the Crown that presented the Lion of

An Tir to the Dowager Princess Janeltis, now departed from this

mortal plane.  That was one of the signal moments of my SCA life.


I've been reading a little on and off about how Lions are chosen in

Ansteorra, but I don't remember the particulars, I'm afraid.  The

principal Lion of An Tir keeps a list and periodically polls the

members and presents a list to the Crown with everyone who's been

nominated and how the members ranked them in order from 1-? as being

the embodiment of the ideals of An Tir. The Crown can then pick from

the list, or not, at Their will.  

We didn't pick from the list; I came up with someone who wasn't on it

and proposed Her Serene Highness to Rorik (my king), but the Lions

all kind of smacked themselves in the head and said the equivalent

of, "D'oh!" when I mentioned Janeltis.


Countess Berengaria de Montfort de Carcassonne, OP

Barony of Caerthe

Kingdom of the Outlands



Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 21:16:52 -0400

From: aldyth at aol.com

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Midrealm News regarding royalty OT OP

To: grizly at mindspring.com, sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org


It happened in the Outlands years ago. One of the combatants mailed in his renewal. Crown was on a Saturday. The renewal was processed/received on the following Monday. He won. He called on Monday to make sure it had been received. His phone call, and the reason why (cause he won) resulted in the tourney being invalidated, and another done at our Coronation.


What our kingdom does now to make sure that doesn't ever happen again is just a change in procedure. The Kingdom Seneschal checks the membership of each combatant and consort thru Milpitas the Thursday before our Crown Tourney. Not current and in good standing, cannot fight/be fought for in the tourney. No exceptions. I don't know the timetable of Crown to Coronation in the MIddle. It seems to me it could have been identified as a problem before Coronation though.


I think the BoD paints with a pretty broad brush.? But sometimes they have to?to avoid litigation. It is one of the necessary evils of those who blend modern and "medieval" society.




-----Original Message-----

In defense of the BoD, what happens the next time someone has almost the

same situation----perhaps not quite as severe a medical emergency?  Will

the BoD have to review every combat to make sure all is as it should be?

And, most importantly, was it so critical for this couple to be King and

Queen that they were willing to circumvent this simple and basic SCA

requirement, that of membership?



From: "tatheg" <tatheg at hotmail.com>

Date: July 16, 2008 3:31:09 PM CDT

To: trimaris-temp at yahoogroups.com

Subject: [tri-temp] Gleened from the Meridian Tavern Yard

Reply-To: trimaris-temp at yahoogroups.com


Please read the missive from HRH Meridies tacked on to the end, I 
think she has the right of it.





In meridian-ty at yahoogroups.com, Lori BAKSIK <ameris at ...> wrote:


> So while I was attending my favorite event in the Outlands, a small 
local event called Lonely Mountain Defender, the most disturbing thing
 happened. A small group of mundanes were already camping at the site 
when we arrived so they were welcomed into the Royal Encampment (as 
well as others) as guests and treated with kindness and respect by 


In return the bastards stole the Crowns of the Outlands and 
"Lightning" (the sword of the Outlands) as well as personal items
 belonging to their Majesties and another person, who is a very old and
 dear friend of mine. As if that wasn't enough, he defecated in the
 queens bed and urinated in my friends tent.


Fortunately as soon as
 these items were discovered missing everybody came together and
 tracked the items down and mundane authorities were contacted. While
 the perpetrators will be punished through the legal system, and all 
items were recovered, that is small comfort for those upon whom these
 crimes were visited and all the others who were affected. We will 
most likely all be changing the way we play this game of ours, at 
least for a while.


> On the bright side, to see the efforts of the populace and the way
 everybody came together made me very proud to be a part of the SCA.

> YIS, Ameris of Erlinstar




(From Her Highness Meridies)

Good People of Meridies,


Having contacted my friend Mistress Leonora and others to confirm the
 truth of this story (as one should always do homework before reacting) 
I am saddened to say that this story is true. 

However, Mistress Leonora passed on to me the words of Countess
 Matilda of the Outlands:


"It is unfortunate that disgusting details were shared, seems so 
tabloidish. I would rather hear about how Duke Hrothgar, Duchess
 Madigan and others acted quickly and diminished the damage that could
 have been done. The next day Her Majesty's Guard were especially
 attendant of Her Royal Person, picking wildflowers and trying to 
create more happy memories for her."


I believe she is correct.

 Rather than treat this as a moment in which we allow anger and
 short-sighted frustration to guide us, let us instead remember the
 actions of good people, who devoted their time to doing everything
 humanly in their power to make things better, to raise the spirits of 
Queen Astridr, and to demonstrate that courtesy, chivalry and 
graciousness are still alive and well in the world - and that our
 Society holds such things dear.

 The mundane authorities will take care of the perpetrators, as they 
should. We, in the meantime, should celebrate the noble people within 
our organization who make it possible to rise above even the lowest 
and most callous of behaviors. 

Those people - Their Graces Hrothgar and Madison, and their like - are
 US - they are the heart of what we as a Society should strive to be,
 defending those in need, whether they are our Crowns or our smallest 
and weakest children.


Please, instead of posting over and over how angry you are at
 petty, cowardly criminals, consider instead the ways that we can honor 
and emulate the very best qualities exhibited by those who came to aid
 Her Majesty Outlands. I am acquainted with both Her Majesty Astridr 
and these gentles who aided her, and I am proud to honor those who did
 well by her in such a trial. 

I ask you all to take their example, and instead of posting any 
frustrations about a far-away incident on a list serve, instead make a
 personal commitment to help someone in need, whether they have been
 through some great difficulty or whether they are new to the Society
 or for whatever reason.
If we are truly to remember the chansons and the deeds of honor 
recorded by the poets and historians, upon which we base this thing 
called the SCA, then I hope we will live in a spirit of chivalry and 
generosity, and raise our voices to praise the best, not quibble about 
the worst.


Yours in Service,

Gwen, Princess Meridies



Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 11:04:41 -0600

From: "Kathleen A Roberts" <karobert at unm.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT- Peerage Oaths

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>


Susan Lin <susanrlin at gmail.com> wrote:

<<< I know the East has MoA but I do not think the Outlands does (at least not

"homemade" ones) >>>


we do.  just not many--probably count them on the fingers

of one hand.  we have had one or two start out that way,

but then decide to take the path of knighthood.




<the end>

Formatting copyright © Mark S. Harris (THLord Stefan li Rous).
All other copyrights are property of the original article and message authors.

Comments to the Editor: stefan at florilegium.org