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sealing-wax-msg – 8/4/05

 

Sealing wax sources, how to make and use.

 

NOTE: See also the files: seals-bib, Med-Seals-lnks, candles-msg, parchment-msg, quills-msg, inks-msg, calligraphy-msg, woodcuts-msg, seals-msg.

 

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NOTICE -

 

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

 

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

 

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

 

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

 

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

 

Thank you,

    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                          Stefan at florilegium.org

************************************************************************

 

From: mjc at cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio)

Date: 15 Apr 91 18:26:05 GMT

Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

 

Unto Siban and the other fishers here, greetings from Ellisif.

 

I'm sorry that I cannot help you in finding sealing wax. But to answer

the question you didn't ask...

 

Please don't apply wax seals directly to scrolls!  This was done for one

reign in the East recently, ending only a year ago, and I know of only one

seal that has remained intact.  (There probably are more, but I know of

many that have fallen off.)  A scroll that I received that reign still

sits, unframed, because the ugly blotch left by the wax hasn't been dealt

with yet.

 

A better way to seal scrolls is to cut a small horizontal slit in the bottom

margin (I'd give it at least an inch below the slit for a large seal like the

Eastern one), run a ribbon through this slit, and apply the wax to that

ribbon, forming a sort of loop.  (The wax will ooze around the edges of the

top piece of ribbon to bind the back piece, or you can lay the two ends

slightly off from each other.)

 

I believe that with this one reign's exception, all kingdoms that seal

scrolls use an ink stamp, not wax.

 

Ellisif Flakkingskvinne

 

 

From: dmb at inls1.ucsd.edu (Doug Brownell)

Date: 16 Apr 91 21:49:33 GMT

Organization: Institute for Nonlinear Science

 

Greetings unto the Rialto from Thomas Brownwell in Caid.

 

Milady Siban asks about sealing wax.  This may be an unusual

suggestion, but someone once suggested that regular old glue-gun

glues now come in bright colors, including red (if you can't get

colored, you can make your own by melting the glue and adding your

own dyes), and they have a number of advantages over regular wax.

 

- They stick to the paper better over the long term without peeling off.

 

- They are almost impossible to crack.  Many of the older scrolls I

  have seen have chuncks missing from the seals, due to an accidental

  bend in the paper sometime in its life (even dropping it can do it).

 

- They are infinitely easier to get, and with a small glue gun are

  very easy to deal with.  I've even seen cordless ones on the market

  for under twenty dollars.

 

I know that this is not the best solution, especially if it's for a

scroll that's going to be given out, but for personal use it may be

much easier to manage.

 

As to where to find actual wax, my only suggestion is at art supply

stores (which Siban has probably already checked).

 

Douglas M. Brownell                     |  Thomas Brownwell

Institute for Nonlinear Science, R-002  |  Barony of Calafia

University of California, San Diego     |  Kingdom of Caid

La Jolla, CA 92093                      |

                                        |  Anachronist (noun):

Internet: dmb at inls1.ucsd.edu            |  Out of time;

          dbrownell at ucsd.edu            |  Gotta go!

 

 

From: dboyes at brazos.rice.edu (David Boyes)

Date: 16 Apr 91 23:18:44 GMT

Organization: Rice University, Houston, Texas

 

dmb at inls1.ucsd.edu (Doug Brownell) writes:

>Greetings unto the Rialto from Thomas Brownwell in Caid.

>As to where to find actual wax, my only suggestion is at art supply

>stores (which Siban has probably already checked).

>Douglas M. Brownell                     |  Thomas Brownwell

 

I suggested to her ladyship in privy script that she investigate

local lapidary or jewelry-making shops for a substance known as

'dopping wax'. It is used mundanely to attach stone blanks to

backing sticks for grinding and is quite strong. It usually is

sold in boxes of 6 or 8 2 oz. tapers.

 

It is also fairly grease-free, adheres to paper or parchment reasonably

well, takes impression well, is reasonably hard, and requires

only ordinary open flame to melt to working consistency. (It also

has the mundane advantage of being difficult to set aflame.) It

comes in several colors, usually red, olive, or black.

 

Users of dopping wax may wish to slightly scarify the surface of the paper

or parchment with a knife or razor before affixing the seal; the

wax tends to adhere better to rougher surfaces.

 

David Ballantiyne

(Wanderer in the wilderness)

--

David Boyes      

dboyes at rice.edu  

 

 

From: kevin%athens.dnet at isi.COM (Keradwc an Cai)

Date: 17 Apr 91 14:20:02 GMT

Organization: The Internet

 

Ellisif Flakkingskvinne stated:

> Please don't apply wax seals directly to scrolls! This was done for one

> reign in the East recently, ending only a year ago, and I know of only one

> seal that has remained intact.  (There probably are more, but I know of

> many that have fallen off.)  A scroll that I received that reign still

> sits, unframed, because the ugly blotch left by the wax hasn't been dealt

> with yet.

> [...]

> I believe that with this one reign's exception, all kingdoms that seal

> scrolls use an ink stamp, not wax.

 

One correction at least; Caid has used on-scroll wax seals for as far back as I

can recall; one of the scribes picked up a large collection of sealing wax on

one of her trips to England.

 

They generally don't apply the seal directly to the scroll, however; the  melted

wax is dripped onto a wax-paper (?) page, and the signet applied there - this

way, poor impressions don't show up on the final scroll. Then, whenever a new

scroll needs to be sealed, the existing seals (Heralds office and Kingdom) are

peeled from the wax-paper, a few drops of wax are dropped onto the scroll

itself, and the seals applied to that.

 

Some few exceptions do exist, for the "seals on a ribbon" scrolls. Both appear

to have been fairly common in period.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

| Keradwc an Cai     |                          |  In the Mists of the West |

|--------------------|--------------------------|---------------------------|

| Kevin Connery      | Quality must be designed |   Speaking FROM, not FOR: |

|                    | into software; it cannot |   Integrated Systems, Inc |

| kconnery at isi.com   | be patched on afterwards |          Santa Clara, CA |

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

From: aiden at NCoast.ORG (Steven Otlowski)

Date: 16 Apr 91 18:46:06 GMT

Organization: North Coast Public Access Un*x (ncoast)

 

One other word about Wax seals.   Not only do they break easily they are a

bloody pain to deal with afterward.  I recently did a pair of scrolls for

a husband and wife.  I took into account ahead of time, and made them a size

that would be convenient to frame.  They the royalty put pendant seals

on them.  So much for framing them for less than $100.

 

The ink seals may not be quite as "showy" but they are a lot easier to

maintain and frame.

 

Master Aiden Elfeadur -

Irritated scribe.

aiden at ncoast.org

 

 

From: cat at fgssu1.sinet.slb.COM (Who Knows?!?)

Date: 19 Apr 91 22:51:14 GMT

Organization: The Internet

 

Siban, Demetrios, other interested parties:

 

1) The West kingdom has sealed its own scrolls for as long as

anyone can remember (I asked a number of people whose membership

dates back to the paleozoic, or at least to 1968).  

 

2) The opinion of Vesper is that technique is a controlling factor

on whether seals fall off.  Also, a heavy size on paper will help

a seal not to stick; gently scratching the spot to be sealed will

give the seal a better chance.

 

3) The Sable Swan Herald and I conducted an experiment last year

with pre-fab seals.  We made Cynaguan seals on wax paper, and pealed

them off.  We then afixed them to bristol board (Strathmore, series

500, 3 ply, vellum finish) with various kinds of glue. Contact cement

(Duro and Barge both) did the best.  The paper ripped when we tried

to remove the seals afixed with contact cement (the bond was aged

one week).  If regular sealing isn't working, consider cheating with

glue.  Glued seals are also a way to replace seals which have fallen

off.

 

4) Real honest-to-god old fashioned document quality sealing wax

can be purchased in the Bay area at Patrick's Office Supplies.  It

is a special order item; they don't keep it in stock.  The College

of Heralds of the West orders it several boxes at a time.

   Patrick's has two San Francisco stores, one on Market and

one on Mission between 1st and 2nd.  (This is probably some help

to Siban, and vastly less helpful for Demetrios since he just can't

hop in his car and drive to San Francisco).  Patrick's has a

catalog - they might do mail order but I'm not sure.

   The brand of sealing wax is Dennison.  Specify the "Bankers'

Sealing Wax" - the current Vesper thinks this is the best variety

and has the best color (red as in cadmium red deep...).

   Since this stuff is document-quality, it doesn't come in little

sticks with wicks.  It comes in long tapers which you have to

melt on the stove in a little saucepan and then dribble on what

you want to seal.  The temperature of the melted wax is a crucial

factor in getting a good seal: too cool and it will pop, too hot

and it will burn the paper.

 

5) Denisson's was bought out at the beginning of the year by one

of the big stationery companies (which one I forget), so the folks

at Patrick's are unsure if the sealing wax line will be discon-

tinued.  Watch this space for updates...  

 

That's all for now.

respectfully,

 

Banner H.

 

 

From: lawbkwn at BUACCA.BITNET (Yaakov HaMizrachi)

Date: 19 Apr 91 18:09:08 GMT

 

There has also been some discussion of

sealing practices.  While I don't remember

who originally posted about the sealing

on a ribbon method, this is the only type

of seals I have seen that survived from

period times to the present.

(Jewish Seals of the Middle Ages, read

the review in Arba Confote. plug. plug.:))

 

In Service,

Yaakov HaMizrachi

 

 

From: CANNING at intellicorp.COM (Janet Canning)

Date: 22 Apr 91 16:51:41 GMT

Organization: The Internet

 

Greetings unto the Rialto...

 

Many thanks to all on the subject of Sealing Wax, but I've a few specifics:

 

If I opt for the serious huge wax sticks that must be melted on the stove, is

the method similar to that of candle wax, i.e. double pots?  Or can one get a

small sauce pot, like the kind for melting butter or cheeze and apply direct

heat.

 

Yes, if I follow the above, the pot will only be used for wax...mmmm, chewy

stuff.

 

If I continue to have difficulties in locating wax(I finally found a place

that has Italian wax, but they are no longer ordering it. Since I am

a merchant, I'm seroiusly thinking of buying from their supplier and

selling as the store will not be buying more*sigh*)  Is there a difference

in the Wax that comes from overseas?  Which country carries the best?

I will contact my friend in Britain and see if he can locate some.

 

I'm excited about this as a friend is helping me to create a seal of sorts

with my device, or portion of it, and playing with the wax...

 

Awaiting more stiring of the melting pot....

 

Siban

-------

From: kuijt at alv (David Kuijt)

Date: 22 Apr 91 20:23:06 GMT

Organization: Center for Automation Research, Univ. of Md., College Park, MD 20742

 

Siban writes about wax:

 

>...

>

>If I opt for the serious huge wax sticks that must be melted on the stove, is

>the method similar to that of candle wax, i.e. double pots?  Or can one get a

>small sauce pot, like the kind for melting butter or cheeze and apply direct

>heat.

>

>...

 

Please, Please use a double boiler.  Different waxes may function differently,

but a good friend of mine caused 1,500 dollars damage to his (rented) kitchen

by melting paraffin in a pot on an electric element.  The wax overheated on

the bottom of the pot and exploded.  He was not in the room at the time,

luckily, but he managed to melt the top of his range. This could have been

avoided if he had used a double boiler and watched his wax carefully.  I

he had been less lucky, my friend could have been blind or dead.

 

Wax is fun, but it is highly flammable.  Please be careful.

 

        Dafydd ap Gwystl                        David Kuijt

        Barony of Storvik                       kuijt at alv.umd.edu

        Kingdom of Atlantia                     (MD,DC,VA,NC,SC)

 

 

Waxing on sealing....

3 Feb 92

From: bill at psych.toronto.edu (Bill Pusztai)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Organization: Dept. of Psychology, University of Toronto

Ceridwen ferch Dafydd ap Cradog writes:

/I am interested in making some sealing wax and would like to

/know, if in fact it is a special sort of wax, and if so how one

/goes about making it.

I know it's not very romantic, but I have found that melted

crayons make the best sealing wax: good texture, solid colour,

takes a good impression. Beeswax is my second choice. It can be

softened by body heat - work it into the palm of your hand.

Beeswax is period.

Fra. Capricornus

 

 

From: corliss at hal.PHysics.wayne.EDU (David J. Corliss)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Sealing wax

Date: 1 Feb 1994 16:41:26 -0500

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know that the gentleman asked for an email reply, and I have sent one. As

a teacher, I realize that, where one asks, many may have wondered.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Parafin and parafin/beeswax may be thinned to to almost any desired consistency

by the addition of vegetable oil. I generally use seed oil, such as sunflower

seed oil. I have not made sealing wax by this method, rather, I have made

lotions and salves. Less oil should give the right consistency. Combine the

wax and oil in a double boiler and melt together. As it cools, it will try

to separate, so it must be whisked vigorously as long as possible. For a lotion

or salve, this means room temperature; for sealing wax, do this as long as you can. If you can no longer beat it, then it should not be able to separate.

 

        ......this has been a public service message from the Middle Kingdom

College of Sciences........

                                            Beorthwine

 

 

From: martini at bashful.cc.utexas.edu (Sheilagh M.B.E. O'Hare)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Sealing wax

Date: 2 Feb 1994 17:11:32 -0600

Organization: The University of Texas - Austin

 

David J. Corliss <corliss at hal.PHysics.wayne.EDU> wrote:

>Parafin and parafin/beeswax may be thinned to to almost any desired consistency

>by the addition of vegetable oil. I generally use seed oil, such as sunflower

>seed oil. I have not made sealing wax by this method, rather, I have made

 

Over on the miscellaneous crafts board, someone mentioned shellac as the

ingredient that turns sealing wax from the mushy beeswax into the glossy

plastic-like stuff.

 

 

From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Wax Seals (was Re: Site Tokens)

Date: 13 Jul 1994 16:11:12 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

 

Chris Robertson (chris at griffon) wrote:

: Well, I don't know what kind of sealing wax you folks were trying, but the

: stuff the West uses doesn't even come _near_ melting at any human-endurable

: temperature.  You have to heat it in a pan over flame to even soften it.

 

It's a mixture of wax and resin (you can smell the pine resin rather

clearly when heating it). I imagine you could mix your own up at home if

you knew the proportions. Just for the record: has anyone come across any

period recipies for sealing wax? It would be fun to mix some up from

scratch, but somewhat pointless unless I were using a period recipie.

 

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn

 

 

From: tip at lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Wax Seals (was Re: Site Tokens)

Date: 13 Jul 1994 19:58:24 GMT

Organization: AI in Chem Lab

 

hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones) wrote:

> It's a mixture of wax and resin (you can smell the pine resin rather

> clearly when heating it). I imagine you could mix your own up at home if

> you knew the proportions. Just for the record: has anyone come across any

> period recipies for sealing wax? It would be fun to mix some up from

> scratch, but somewhat pointless unless I were using a period recipie.

>

> Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn

 

Good My Lady,

 

an a humble cleric may speak, I have the following reciept for seling wax;

 

 

The manufacture of a good and faithful sealing wax.

 

The purposes of a sealing wax are threefold;   imprimus - to seal a missive

so as to protect it against unwonted investigation, secundus - to seal a

missive so as to invigilate against falsification,  et tertius - to give

witness that the missive comes from the hand from which it purports to

arise, by carrying the imprint of a greater or lesser seal.

 

To accomplish these purposes,  the wax must have certain and diverse

qualities.  It must adhere to the paper or parchement so tenaciously that

it may not be prised off with impunity.  It must be of such a nature so

that when any attempt is made to prise or cut it from it's paper that it

shall fly into a thousand shards.  Yet it must also be so durable so that

the passage of time or the thousand little insults that might ensue unto

its normal life,  shall not break or mar it.

 

A simple seal of beeswax can ne'r be pressed to serve, for that it is but

childs play to cut it along the seam, whereby then to read the contents of

the missive,  and then to press the seal back together again with a heated

spatula so as to erase any indication that one has assayed to breach the

security of the seal.

 

On the other hand,  a seal made of shellac shall also ne'r serve,  for that

it is too intemperate and hard and will too easily break upon the lightest

blow.  And belike as not,  it will not adhere to a paper when attached

thereto,  so that oftimes it would pop loose without any encouragement,

and bear false witness against the messager.

 

However, when two substances of opposite humours are married,  then a union

true unto it's purpose shall be obtained, suitable in all degrees and

means.  Thus shellac can be tempered with rosin, or turpentine, or beeswax,

to obtain a good and true sealing wax.

 

To make thy wax,  takest thou first 4 parts of shellac, and place it in a

pan over a heat of the second degree.   Once it begins to melt, then add by

degrees 2 parts of good turpentine, and thereafter add 1 part of rosin.

Now thou moucht cast thy colorant upon it;   for red thou shouldst add 2

parts of vermillion,  whereas for blue thou shouldst stir in 1 part of

Prussian blue.  An thou wouldst have a green seal, then thou shouldst add

to a blue wax the halve of one part of yellow chrome, and 1 part of

magnesia.    Before thou dost cast in thy colorant stir it up first with a

small measure of turpentine, so that a paste is formed. And at all stages

have thy servant stir this mixture so fast is they may, so that none doth

stick and burn upon the floor of thy pan.  Once these matters have all been

married,  then thou may form it into sticks by pouring it upon a marble

plate in the same fashion as a candy maker doth, and rolling it back and

forth with a smoothed wooden block.

 

An thy wax be too hard, or not tenacious enough to thy paper, thou mayest

temper it by adding up to 2 parts of goodly beeswax.

 

-------------

 

Dry shellac may be obtained from woodworkers supply houses.   Use the least

expensive orange flakes.   Rosin may be obtained from music stores, or

sporting goods houses,  or by taking the gummy exudate from pine trees and

letting it dry in the sun for a summer.   Vermillion is mercuric sulfide,

and you should be careful with it.   Nowadays I might be tempted to use an

inorganic pigment obtained from a paint store instead. Prussian Blue,

Chrome Yellow and White Magnesia can all be obtained from paint stores or

artist's supply houses. Chromium has been implicated in cancer... you might

want to substitute that as well.  When heating this mixture DON'T use an

open flame,  use an electric burner (unless you like second and third

degree burns).  If you don't have a marble plate,  then cast the sealing

wax into molds.   If you add too much beeswax the sealing wax might stick

to your seal.  But if you are only dropping wax on a seam without

impressing it,  beeswax is a cheap filler (compared to shellac).  The

recipie is not perfectly reproduceable  since each batch of shellac and

rosin are a little different,  so you should probably always start with a

small batch and experiment before you make a large batch.

 

 

I don't know where the return address  tip at lead.tmc.edu   comes from...

Something messes up the right address which is  tip at lead.aichem.arizona.edu

Sorry

 

 

From: powers at cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Wax Seals (was Re: Site Tokens)

Date: 14 Jul 1994 12:48:44 -0400

Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science

 

Try looking in _Divers Arts_ by Theophilus. I think he included sealing

wax along with embosser's pitch and other stuff. I used sealing wax to

mount a wittle tang in a bone handle for my "use knife" rather than

following Theophilus' suggestion of using melted sulfur....

 

wilelm, who aparently is much older in Drachenwald; must be a different

calendar or something.

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: leeu at celsiustech.se (Leif Euren)

Subject: Re: Real sealing wax?

Organization: CelsiusTech AB

Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 12:28:58 GMT

 

Dan Berger wrote:

>If you have a simple recipe for sealing wax, I would appreciate you posting

>it. I had not considered adding shellac.

 

My knowledge is mostly of post period uses of sealing wax,

 

Modern sealing wax is made mainly of shellac.  I don't know if this is

medieval practice, but I haven't made any real deep research yet.

Anyway, I have some recipies from mid-17th century for sealing wax.

And I have reason to beleive that if shellac based wax was used in

period, this is a good approximation on their variant:

 

      shellac          100      60     40

      hartz            -      40     60

      turpentine         10     70     60

      turpentine oil  5    5      5

      cinnabar          65     45     40

      chalk             15     15     20

      plaster            15    15     10

 

All measures are weight, relative to each other.

 

The ingredients should be put in a pot, big enough to allow vigorous

stirring, and slowly heated until the melt.  Never over an open flame;

if you don't have an electrical stove, put some sort of metal plate

(preferrably cast iron) between the flame and the pot.

 

Be careful, because the ingredients an inflamable!  Do not try to put

out fire in the pot with water, but cover it with a lid.

 

When all the solid components are fully melted, and thouroughly mixed,

cast the sealing-wax in brass molds, about half foot long, and half

inch wide, producing a stick 1/2 x 1/2 ". The molds should be cold and

well polished, as the wax will seep into any cracks and then be very

hard to remove.

 

If you are planning to sell your wax, you may want to polish it.  This

is best done in an oven, hot enough to melt the outmost layer of the

wax-stick, but not its core.  The temperature in this oven is

critical: a too hot oven will cause the surface of the stick to melt

completely, drip to the bottom and catch fire; not enough heat will

soften the stick throughout, causing it to bend.  You could also do

this by hand over on open heat source, but that will take some skill.

 

There is also the recipe based on bees wax:

 

      bees wax     50

      turpentine    15

      cinnabar     10

      glycerin     5

 

As the book I've taken these recipies from is a swedish translation of

a german book, and I've made the translation into english myself, some

precission may have been lost in the process.

 

I hope I have enlightened you in some way.  As I've said before,

sealing wax is is not my main area of study, although it might well

be.

 

  your humble servant

  Peder Klingrode                         | Leif Euren   Stockholm, Sweden

  Holmrike, Nordmark, Drachenwald         | leeu at celsiustech.se

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: nostrand at bayes.math.yorku.ca (Barbara Nostrand)

Subject: Re: Real sealing wax?

Organization: York University

Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 01:00:42 GMT

 

Noble Cousins!

 

There is a very nice set of plates in the book put out by the Kriminal

Museum in Germany which show how to make pendent wax seals.  They are

made out of Bee's Wax etc.  And, they are rather fragile. For this

reason, they were fequently encapsulated in wooden circular holders.

Incidentally, they Kriminal Museum also has a lot of good examples of

so-called "paper seals" where the seal is carried on a piece of paper

attached to the surface of the document.  (These are not those round

red or blue things.  Those are fake wax seals.  No, these paper seals

are completely white.  The seal appears to be embossed into the paper.)

 

                              Your Humble Servant

                              Solveig Throndardottir

                              <amateur scholar>

 

 

From: david.razler at compudata.com (DAVID RAZLER)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Real Sealwax POISON!

Date: Wed, 26 Oct 94 01:00:00 -0400

Organization: Compu-Data BBS -=- Turnersville, NJ -=- 609-232-1245

 

DB> leeu at celsiustech.se (Leif Euren) writes:

>Modern sealing wax is made mainly of shellac.  I don't know if this is

>medieval practice, but I haven't made any real deep research yet.

>Anyway, I have some recipies from mid-17th century for sealing wax.

>And I have reason to beleive that if shellac based wax was used in

>period, this is a good approximation on their variant:

 

DB><extensive and informative text deleted for brevity>

 

DB>Thank you so much for getting back to me so quick. I have proposed to a

DB>friend

DB>of mine that we make some sealing-wax candles, but until now had not any

DB>idea of its composition....

 

Cinibar is ground mercury ore. When burned, it gives off mercury vapor. Use

it in a candle and you'll go as mad as a hatter!! For Real! Permanently!

                                    In Service

                              Aleksandr the Traveller

                        [david.razler at compudata.com]

 

 

From: curt.owings-christian at syncomm.com (CURT OWINGS-CHRISTIAN)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: sealing wax

Date: Wed, 02 Nov 94 20:00:00 -0400

Organization: Synergy Online, Parsippany, NJ (201) 331-1797

 

First of all I wish to intoduce myself.  I am known in the society

as Ruedy MacChristian.  I am the fellow that runs MAGICANDE at war.

    I have been sealing wax for a while now.  It depends on what period

that you come from.  Before 1200's sealing wax was beeswax, a little

venestian turpentine, and the period pigments.  After that it was made

from lac not shellac.

    So far I have only done little reserch into it but I am planning

abnother research stint in the library of congress.

    Please send a reply so that we can compare notes.

 

                                          Ruedy

 

 

From: CURT OWINGS-CHRISTIAN (11/8/94)

To: markh at sphinx

RE>lac (sealing wax)

 

Dear Mark,

 

        Below I have given you the refernce that I have at this time.  I

am still doing research into the subject.

************************************************************************

 

AU: Standage, H. C.

TI: Sealing-Waxes, Wafers, & other Adhesives

PU: Scott, Greenwood, & Co.

PL: London, England

Copyright: 1902

 

Page:B

 

        "In early times coloured beeswax was used for sealing letters

and for attaching the impression of seals to documents, but on the

introduction of lac from the East indies into Venice the use of beeswax

was discarded.  Lac is a resinous substance obtained from trees

indigenous to India, and the property of lac, as an adhesive material

has ben known from time immemorial to the Hindoos, who used lac for

sealing manuscripts long before it was known in Europe."

*********************************************************************

 

        Now the differnce between lac and shellac is that lac is a

natural substance(I am still looking in to how tgo obtain it), and

shellac is a modern day synthetic material.  No I have not yet looked

into the difference betyween their chemical formulas, that is a part of

the planned research that I have not got to yet.  I will know more when

I have completed my research.

 

                                        Ruedy

 

Curt R. Owings-Christian

curt.owings-christian at syncomm.com

 

 

From: cjcannon at ucdavis.EDU (Carol Cannon)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: RE:  Sealing Wax Recipe

Date: 24 Feb 1995 14:26:29 -0500

 

  Wax for pouring in or sealing oiled corks, driven into bottle necks

below the rim, is made from:

 

  65 parts of resin [rosin],

   1 part of beeswax,                  in

   1 part of linseed oil.

 

(All slowly melted together over low heat.)*  Wax can be mixed with lamp

black or vermillion powder for black & red wax respectively.  Such

expensive waxes are used only for valuable spirits stored for long

periods, or used for sealing documents.

 

This recipe has been extracted from:  Mollison, Bill.  The Permaculture

book of ferment & human nutrtion.  Califon, NJ : Permaculture Resources,

1993.  pp. 212-213, who hold the copyright.

 

*I would say--use the lowest possible temperature to get the job done.

 

 

From: cranon at aol.com (Cranon)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: RE:  Sealing Wax Recipe

Date: 25 Feb 1995 11:41:57 -0500

 

You can also contact a printing supply company. The letter press and die

cutting trade has a definate use for sealing wax and can supply a good

quantity of quality stuff.

-Crandall

 

 

From: sclark at blues.epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Historic Waxcraft...

Date: 11 May 1995 17:00:51 GMT

Organization: University of Toronto -- EPAS

 

Greetings!

      Pedro, my system ate your post, so I'm responding here.  My business

card is a couple of years old, but....

 

Historic Waxcraft

Alexander Wieber

176 Elmerston Rd.

Rochester, NY  14620-4538

(716) 271-5592.

 

      Good stuff.  I own about 15 of these wax seal impressions.

 

Cheers!

Nicolaa/Susan

Canton of Eoforwic

sclark at epas.utoronto.ca

 

 

From: jtn at eng2.uconn.EDU (Terry Nutter)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: 16th C Recipe for Red Sealing Wax

Date: 19 Jul 1995 23:17:13 -0400

 

Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.

 

A while back, someone or other was asking about period sealing wax.

As I mentioned in another post a minute ago, I've been investigating

a new-to-me 16th C cookbook (John Partrige, The Treasurie of Commodious

Conceipts and hidden Secrets, 1573), and found the following.

 

        To make red sealyng wax.

 

        Take one pound of Wax .iii. ounces of cleare Tyrpentyne in

        Sommer, in Winter take fowre: melte them together with a

        soft fyre: Then take it from the fire and let it coole:

        Then put in Uermylion berye fynely grounde, and Salet Oyle,

        of each an ounce, and mix them well together, and it is

        perfect good.

 

Cheers,

-- Angharad/Terry

 

 

From: jtn at newsserver.uconn.edu (Terry Nutter)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: 16th C Recipe for Red Sealing Wax

Date: 20 Jul 1995 15:59:54 GMT

Organization: University of Connecticut

 

Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.

 

Henry Troup asks:

: Any idea what turpentine mean to the writer?  I'm used to it

: being liquid and not needing melted. This sounds like a pine tar

: opf some sort.

 

The original reads,

 

     Take one pound of Wax .iii. ounces of cleare Tyrpentyne in

        Sommer, in Winter take fowre: melte them together

 

This could mean that both are solids, but an alternative reading,

within the level of precision I've found in many early recipes,

would be, "Put them together in a pot and heat until you have a

uniform liquid mixture."  That is, it may only be the wax that's

melting; the turpentine is with it as it melts, and mixes in.

 

At least, that's my first guess.

 

Cheers,

-- Angharad/Terry

 

 

From: brgarwood at aol.com (BRgarwood)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: 16th C Recipe for Red Sealing Wax

Date: 20 Jul 1995 12:47:09 -0400

 

hwt at bnr.ca (Henry Troup) writes:

>Any idea what turpentine mean to the writer?  I'm used to it

>being liquid and not needing melted. This sounds like a pine tar

>opf some sort.

 

The turpentine you get to clean paint brushes is spirit of turpentine,

which is an esential oil (C10H16) distilled from gum turpentine.  I

suspect gum turpentine is what is caled for.  This is the sticky resin

from the turpentine tree.  Then too, maybe they dried gum turpentine and

crystalized it.  Could have happened.

 

Berwyn

 

 

From: bj at alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Barbara Jean Kuehl)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: 16C Recipe for Red Sealing Wax

Date: 20 Jul 1995 22:29:56 GMT

Organization: Information & Media Technologies, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee

 

About the 'Tyrpentyne' mentioned in the original recipe, I suspect

they are talking about the resin found on certain fir trees and NOT

the liquid we know today as 'turpentine'.  If you've ever collected

this resin, it is runnier in the summer when the tree is sappy but

it hardens in the winter.  This might account for the directions to

use iii (3?) oz in summer and four in winter.

 

In addition, if you've ever compared sealing wax to candle wax,

sealing wax is a harder substance.  It doesn't make sense that

adding a liquid to wax would result in a harder substance.

 

Finally, if you've ever added liquid to melted wax and then allowed

the mixture to harden, what happens is that the wax hardens and

the liquid sweats out.  

 

For these reasons, I suspect that the recipe is describing tree

resin as 'tyrpentyne' and not the modern liquid turpentine.

 

Just my .02.

Barbary

 

 

From: bbrisbane at aol.com (BBrisbane)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: 16th C Recipe for Red Sealing Wax

Date: 21 Jul 1995 00:43:21 -0400

 

Previously everyone wrote about what various meanings could be brought

from Melting/melding Turpentine.  Well, I'm fortunate enough to have found

a substance to fit the bill!!   Venice Turpentine is an extremely viscous

turpentine which was used in period and can be bought today in art stores.

In the winter it is as thick as pitch and damn near impossible to work

with!  I was making a Balsam varnish, which Venice Turpentine is,

according to Cennini for a fixative to use on a charcoal portrait.  I was

also fortunate enough to find it amongst Apothacary bottles at an antique

shop.  The Turp was about 70 years old (a full bottle, so it was not

concentrated via dehydration) and incredible stuff.  I believe the modern

equivallent is somewhat less viscous, but it could be left to stand.  A

more contemporary translation is to be found in 'Formulas for Painters' by

Robert Massey.

 

The Craftsman's Handbook;  the Italian "Il Libro del Arte" ,  by Cennino

D'Andrea Cennini, Translated by Daniel V. Thompson, Dover Publications,

(This text is still available for approx. $7).

 

Formulas for Painters, by Robert Massey, Watson-Guptill Publications,

Chartwell Books Inc., NY, NY, copyright 1967 ( Can still be bought, I

don't know where??  But is obtainable through inter-library loan).

 

 

From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Wax Seals

Date: 29 Jul 1996 16:19:53 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley

 

C S Walsh (roz at meridies.org) wrote:

: The Meridian Parchment Pursuivent just phoned to ask about wax seals

: for Meridian scrolls.  She said that she would like them done like

: they are done out West.  Now, I'm a jeweler by mundane trade.  I have

: done several signet rings, and have doe a seal for myself.  I'm just

: not sure what it is she's talking about, being able to make the wax

: seals ahead of time and then attaching them to the document.

 

: Does anyone have any clues?

 

Well, the way they are "done out West" is that the seal is sealed directly

onto the scroll. I.e., drip hot sealing wax onto the appropriate space on

the scroll, press the seal in place, let it sit half a minute until it

sets. We also do a significant minority of scrolls with the more authentic

hanging seals: thread either ribbons (the traditional "red tape" red silk

ribbons are good) or scrap parchment strips through slits in the bottom of

the scroll, make a bottom-layer "wax pancake", cross the ribbons/strips on

top of it, add a second layer of wax and seal while hot. Traditionally,

the unused parchment at the bottom of the document would be rolled up and

the slits cut through it, so that nothing could be added to the document

without unsealing it. What we have found works best as a working surface

for sealing is a marble slab -- absorbs the heat nicely. If a number of

scrolls are being sealed at the same time, we ice the seal down bewteen

uses, as you don't get optimum use from a hot seal.

 

Note that if you are going to use real wax seals, you need to have to have

some minimum standards for scroll paper. The thin, flimsy stuff sold as

"parchment paper" simply won't stand up to having a seal attached to it.

Something of the same weight and stiffness as Bristol board seems to work

best.

 

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn

 

 

From: tangle at iadfw.net (Tim of Angle)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Wax Seals

Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 00:51:36 GMT

Organization: EDS Retail Delivery Division

 

Scripsit roz at meridies.org (C S Walsh) :

 

" The Meridian Parchment Pursuivent just phoned to ask about wax seals

" for Meridian scrolls.  She said that she would like them done like

" they are done out West.  Now, I'm a jeweler by mundane trade.  I have

" done several signet rings, and have doe a seal for myself.  I'm just

" not sure what it is she's talking about, being able to make the wax

" seals ahead of time and then attaching them to the document.

 

Have her check her files for my monograph on period document forms, which I sent

her predecessor some time in the early 80s. Or it may be in the Beacon files. Or

they may have just thrown it away.

 

How this was done depended on where you were. Dripping the wax directly on the

substance to be sealed (sealing 'en plaquet') was common in France, never done

in England. The most common method was to leave an inch or two of bottom edge,

fold it over a couple of times to provide a sturdy structure, then thread

braided silk or leather cords through it; the cords were then laid in a seal

press which had the reverse of the seal already filled with hot wax waiting for

it. More hot wax was put on the cords, and the obverse of the seal impressed on

it. This leaves a hanging seal with a front and back image. Sometimes these

hanging seals would be fitted into protective metal cases to protect the was

from environmental hazards, especially in post-period documents of symbolic

significance. Later in pariod, silk ribbons were used for commercial documents;

you can sometimes buy examples of these if you look around carefully.

 

English letters close had a unique method of closure: A strip was cut from the

bottom edge from one side almost to the other, then the letter folded up and the

parchment strip tied around it with a flap dangling, then the seal was put on

this flap. It was impossible to open without tearing the strip off, but the seal

was available for all to check out (although typically the seal was impressed

off-center so that only about half of it got on the wax -- why, I don't know).

 

There are good books on sigillography available in academic libraries (how's

your French?). You might want to take a look at "Form and Order in Medieval

France: Studies in Social and Quantitative Sigillography" by Brigitte

Bedos-Rezak (Variorum, 1993, ISBN 0860783553, about $110); "The Gold Seals of

the Vatican Secret Archives" edited by Aldo Martini (Rizzoli International

Publications, 1985, ISBN 0847854043), which I think is no longer in print;

"Medieval Jewish Seals from Europe" by Daniel M. Friedenberg (Wayne State

University Press, 1987, ISBN 0814317693, list $65.00); and "Some Feudal Lords

and Their Seals" by Howard de Walden (Olympic Marketing Corp., 1984, ISBN

0947554017, list about $18).

 

        Tadhg

        The Grumpiest Pelican

        Hanaper Herald Extraordinary

 

 

From: alh at postoffice.utas.edu.au (Alan Hughes)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Wax Seals

Date: 5 Aug 1996 06:15:44 GMT

Organization: University of Tasmania

 

tangle at iadfw.net wrote:

> It was impossible to open without tearing the strip off, but the seal

> was available for all to check out (although typically the seal was impressed

> off-center so that only about half of it got on the wax -- why, I don't know).

 

Protection against forgery.  If the impression was complete it could be

used to make a forged seal from a single example with relative ease.  With

incomplete impressions multiple examples are required and the matching of

the fragments can often be detected.

 

Theodorus the Thessalonican

Ynys Fawr, Lochac, West.

 

 

To: markh at risc.sps.mot.com

From: "rgonty" < at techplus.com at spsem02.sps.mot.com>

Subject: Sealing Wax

Date: Sat, 08 Feb 97 02:40:08 PST

 

I have been a collector of Sealing Wax, for about twenty years. I have

bought different types, by many makers in Europe, the US and here in

Canada, should you require any information, I would be most happy to

oblige, and I am always looking for more.

 

Ronald E. Gonty

8-Macleod Drive

Brandon, Manitoba

R7A-6G1

Canada

 

E-mail:  rgonty at galaxy.mb.ca

 

 

Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:31:29 -0400

From: Barbara Nostrand <bnostran at lynx.dac.neu.edu>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: Sealing Wax Query

 

Noble Cousin!

 

Sealing wax is made from beeswax and there were three fairly common pigments

in the Middle Ages:  brown, green and red.  You should possibly consider

aquiring a copy of A Guide to British Medieval Seals by Harvey & McGuinness.

They claim that British seals were always made from beeswax with sometimes

inclusions of ine hair (which they presume was intended to strengthen the

wax in a way similar to rebar in ferroconcrete.)  There are some rare

examples of golden (instead of waxen) seals.  The vatican was fond of these,

but there is only one known British example.  Further, there is a surviving

lead seal on a bulla of King Cewnwulf of Mercia.   Neither wafer (a

mixture of flour and gum) nor shellac (sealing wax) were used in Medieval

England.  (cite. ibid pg. 17).  Early waxen seals were uncoloured.

Harvey & McGuinness note that coloured seals are less friable and last

longer than uncoloured seals.  The pigments are red (vermilion), green

(verdigris) and brown (which Harvey & McGuinness are less clear about,

they speculate that this may result from deterioration of either pigment.

I am willing to speculate that the tincture results from mixing left-overs

of the other two.)  Before the thirteenth century, the seals were coated

with varnish after they had hardened.  (ibid)

 

Also see:

 

J.J. Dobbie and J.J.Fox, "The Composition of some Mediaeval Wax Seals"

Journal of the Chemical SOciety, 105 (1914) pp. 795-800.

 

C. Woods, 'The Nature and Treatment of Wax and Shellac Seals', Journal

of the Society of Archivists, 15 (1994), pp. 203-14.

 

                                    Your Humble Servant

                                    Solveig Throndardottir

                                    Amateur Scholar

+-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

| Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D.             | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM         |

| de Moivre Institute                 | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est        |

| 676 Pullman Road 135                | 23 East Collings Avenue             |

| Moscow, Idaho  83843                | Collingswood, New Jersey 08108-8203 |

| mailto:bnostran at lynx.neu.edu     | (609) 854-8203                      |

 

 

From: rhayes at powerup.com.au (Robin Hayes)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: seeking info/letter seals

Date: 7 Mar 1997 12:54:22 GMT

 

Jaclyn Reding of jacreding at inficad.com says...

<SNIP>

>Could a seal be removed from a letter intact?  

 

According to the story of Mary Queen of Scots, The Elizabethan Courtiers

were able to read all correspondence, sealed or not. Thus undetectable

removal and replacement of seals seems highly probable.

 

If someone has more specific info on this, I would appreciate it.

 

Robin

--

pereant omnes ignavi seque stuprent

rhayes at powerup.com.au http://www.powerup.com.au/~rhayes/

 

 

From: bjm10 at cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: seeking info/letter seals

Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 10:00:51 -0600

Organization: Cornell University

 

Can't help with those questions, but I do know that NMR analysis has

revealed that several of John Lackland's seals were made primarily of

beeswax and rosin.

 

 

From: Elaine_Crittenden at dxpressway.com (Elaine Crittenden)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Sealing Wax

Date: 31 Mar 1997 19:31:48 GMT

Organization: Digital Xpressway - Dallas, TX

 

There is a company I used to have (downsized my company.)as a supplier called

Aldine.

They have not only the smaller wax sticks but ones large enough to have about

4 dozen "seals" in them, with a double arc per seal. Also metal stamps and

even stamp pads with real gold in them.

Aldine makes the wax used in the seals of official French government

documents, the rep told me. Good luck.  ;-)

 

Elaine Crittenden (Dallas TX) aka Lete bithe Spring (Steppes, Ansteorra)

 

 

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 15:21:10 -0600

From: ejstark at hotmail.com

Subject: Re: Sealing wax- personalized stamps

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

 

fortin at iname.com wrote:

> Where can you get the stamps made to order...and how much does it cost

 

Kirk Maclaren has made signet rings for a number of gentles.

his business name is Amulets by Merlin, and he's usually at Pennsic..

I just looked for his card, but it doesn't seem to be anywhere handy.

The price seems to depend on the cost of materials, and the time

involved, the one I ordered a year ago was over $60, not bad for

a custom-made sterling silver ring for a large man.

 

    Erica Poitevins

 

 

Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 08:54:20 -0500

From: Wendy Robertson <wcrobert at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: Sealing Wax Query

 

At 08:31 AM 6/4/97 -0400, Barbara Nostrand said:

>Sealing wax is made from beeswax and there were three fairly common pigments

>in the Middle Ages:  brown, green and red.  You should possibly consider

>aquiring a copy of A Guide to British Medieval Seals by Harvey & McGuinness.

 

[clip]

 

>                                   Solveig Throndardottir

 

I would second the recommendation for Harvey and McGuinness's book.  The

complete citation follows:

 

A guide to British medieval seals / P.D.A. Harvey and Andrew McGuinness.

Toronto ; Buffalo : University of Toronto Press; London : British Library :

Public Record Office, c1996.

            ISBN:           0802008674 (U.S.)

            ISBN:           071230410X (Britain)

 

Before the publication of the above book, the best source of which I was

aware was:

 

Guide to seals in the Public Record Office / Jenkinson, Hilary, Sir. --

London, H. M. Stationery Off.,1954.  (<Public Record Office handbooks ; no.

1>)

 

Either of these books should be readily available through interlibrary

loan.  It is the first chapter/section in each that covers the wax itself.

Both sources also discuss how to press the wax, and I believe both sources

show methods of attachment (I know the Jenkinson source covers this in

detail).

 

Ailene nic Aedain

Shire of Shadowdale, Calontir

mailto:wcrobert at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu

 

 

Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 09:04:54 -0500

From: Tim Weitzel <wcrobert at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: Sealing Wax Query

 

Another good reference for period wax seals, particularly from England, is

 

Jenkinson, Hilary, Sir.  Guide to seals in the Public Record Office.

London, H. M. Stationery Off., 1954.

 

Jenkinson was in charge of the documents collects in the British Public

Record Office.  He describes how they were used, how they were made, what

they were made of and colored with and even how they were attached to the

document and what it was made of.

 

Yes, beeswax is the mainstay.  Natural beeswax was freqeuntly used without

added color.  Red (vermilion, a mercury compound), chrome, and whiting are

the colorants that I have read as the most freqeunt colors, but only the

whiting (chalk dust)  is technically very safe.  

 

Unlike modern sealing wax sticks (mostly shellac, I think) you soften the

wax in hot water and then press the wax cake with the seal matrix.  The

seals for royal documents, like a grant, were big too. William I had a

seal that was a modest 6 in. in diameter.  Special cloth bags and lead

wrapping material were used to keep the seal from being damaged. I’m fairly

sure it was Elizabeth I who introduced shellac-based seals but I suspect

that it didn't immediatly replace the use of beeswax.

 

 

Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 11:26:27 -0400

From: nancy lynch <lughbec at erols.com>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: Sealing Wax Query

 

My thanks to all who responded to my query about sealing wax.  The list

of resources compiled thus far are as follows:

 

"Guide to Seals in the Public Record Office" by Sir Hilary Jenkinson,

London, H.M. Stationary Off., 1954.

 

"A Guide to British Medieval Seals"  by P.D.A. Harvey and Andrew

McGuinness, Toronto - Buffalo : University of Toronto Press, London:

British Library, Public Record Office, c1996.

 

"The Composition of Some Medieval Wax Seals" by J.J. Dobbie and J.J.

Fox, Journal of the Chemical Society, 105 (1914) pp 795-800

 

"The Nature and Treatment of Wax and Shellac Seals" by C. Woods, Journal

of the Society of Archivists, 15 (1994), pp 203 -14.

 

This information is gratefully received and these resources should keep

me off the streets and out of trouble for the next few weeks!:-)

 

Fa/inne o/ir ort! (A gold ring on you!)

THL Lughbec ni Eoin

 

 

Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 10:21:03 -0400

From: Barbara Nostrand <bnostran at lynx.dac.neu.edu>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: Sealing Wax Query

 

While we are recomending books, I think that I should also recomend the

larger of the books published by the Krimminal Museum in (I believe

Rotenberg) Germany.  (Regardless, it is a quaint German walled city and

full time tourist trap.)  The museum has quite a few documents dating

from period and an exhibit showing the steps in sealing a document.  These

are reproeduced in the museum's book.  Unfortunately, my copy of the thing

is in storage and I can not provide a citation.  If you attempt to acquire

this thing, make sure to obtain the largest of their books as it contains

all of the matterial in their various smaller publications.

 

                                          Your Humble Servant

                                          Solveig Throndardottir

                                          Amateur Scholar

 

 

Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 21:43:17 +0000

From: "James Pratt" <cathal at mindspring.com>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: Sealing Wax Query

 

> Solveig mentioned

> >>larger of the books published by the Krimminal Museum in (I believe

> Rotenberg) Germany. <<

>

> Is it in English or, heaven forbid, German?

> Alban

 

      Both.  The larger edition has quite a bit of information on

jurisprudence of the period and some exceptional examples of

work-a-day documents.

 

Cathal.

 

 

Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 10:14:22 -0500

From: Tim Weitzel <wcrobert at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: Sealing Wax Query (Correction)

 

Well, I must applogize for a couple of errors that I made in yesterday's post.

 

The Color Green, upon looking back at the source I referenced, is from

verdisgris, not chrome.  Still somewhat toxic, but not too bad if you don't

eat it.  Sealing wax apparently was reused and darkens each time it is

heated.  In addition to Natural color (and its variations to brown)

Vermillion red can actally make a range of colors from orange to red.  In

the 16th cent. black became a color used in seals as a sign of mourning and

it was made by adding carbon (black ash) to the wax.

 

Another interesting note about use of color for English Royalty:  Natural

was the usual color for most sealed documents.  Green was used for grants

and perpetuities.

 

The average seal size was about 3 in. and 3 1/4 in. was William the

Conquerers royal seal. Modern British seals have come to be 6 in in diameter.

 

Sealing wax is:  2/3 beeswax and 1/3 resin (unspecified type)

again, shellac came into use in England in the 16th century as an import

product from the West Indies.

 

That book really does sum it up for period English seals.

 

A Guide to Seals in the Public Record Office, Jenkins, Hiklary, Sir. Her

Majesties Stationary Office. 1954.  London.

 

Try interlibrary loan if it isn't available at your local library.

 

Tryffin ap Myrddin

Shadowdale, Calontir

 

 

Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 01:29:14 -0700

From: Kate was here <cmhelm at ucdavis.edu>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: sealing wax (a long Twcs rant)

 

>Want to answer this one?

>Charles

>jphughes at raven.cc.ukans.edu

>---------- Forwarded message ----------

>From: nancy lynch <lughbec at erols.com>

>Our barony and canton use a great deal of sealing wax for important

 

snip snip snip etc etc etc

 

Lughbec and friends,

I never even knew this list existed before Charles forwarded the

original message in this thread to me yesterday.  My original reply

bounced, because I did not subscribe to this list.  I do not bother

to answer very many SCA inquiries in these frantic days of trying

to finish my dissertation, but Charles knows where my interest

buttons are, and this is one of them.

 

As far as I can tell, Charles didn't have the opportunity to forward

my bounced reply, and my apologies to you all if he did. I have checked

the last two days' archives and have temporarily subscribed for the

sake of pursuing the quest for medieval sealing wax.  I have read the

many replies and have stashed the references I haven't heard of before

in a file (vainly marked "for after filing the dissertation."  We'll see how

many weeks this lasts...  ;-)

 

And here's why I interrupt your interesting conversation on the subject:

I am seldom happy to find a ref on making something without trying it

myself.   <{I think I'm cursed with artificer disease. I make pigments

but only after finding my own rocks first.  I've smelted my own silver

(a la Agricola) after finding my own silver vein (it's now a large chunk

of the aforementioned dissertation...the vein, not the silver...).  I just

succeeded in making and using, very happily (except for the smell) my

own period leather dye (a la the Plithco).}>

 

So here's the scoop:

Waldt von Markheim and I have been attempting to make period

(ie medieval) sealing wax for several years.  We have not yet succeeded.

For those who know us, this is very very unusual, to say the least.

We have been attempting several of the period recipes we've turned

up, and NOT ONE has yielded a usable sealing wax (though cross-ref'ing

with Massey resulted in a new recipe for gilding on leather and wood).

You can find some of these recipes and the refs they came from at:

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/rialto/sealing-wax-msg.html

I'm confident the folks here can tell the substance from the dross.

 

The essential result thus far is this: no variant of the beeswax plus

period turpentine plus "drying" oil (eg, linseed oil, regardless of

thickening technique) recipe has worked.  Trust me, my work table is

covered with all sorts of variations on proportions and combination

sequences, including temp variations and emulsion recombinations.

 

I have to confess that the thing which bothers me the most about

this subject is the fact the majority of people who respond to sealing

wax inquiries will blithely report a recipe (beeswax plus turp without

mention of a drying oil is the best example of this) without ever

trying it.  If folks ever tried this, as Waldt and I have done, they

would know that not only will it NOT work (for actually sound

organic-chemistry reasons that Waldt worked out), but if you dig in

the right places in other "art material" refs, you would find that this

recipe will result in a paste every time.

 

Here's our best guess as to what's going on:

Both Waldt and I do the chemistry nerd thing.  We've concluded, from

our perspective as modern nerds, that modern "venice turpentine" is

sufficiently refined that it no longer carries enough oleoresin to oxidize

and congeal the medieval wax+venice turp+oil recipe variants.  If you dig

into Gettens and Stout (1942) you'll find that Canadian balsam was

almost the same as Venice and Strasbourg turp, at least back when all

3 were still available for sale.  I suspect that Canadian balsam would

substitute just fine and would make the medieval recipes work, but

it's approx $150 a pint when I looked into getting some last year.  I

sometimes use Canadian balsam in my lab, and all by itself it hardens

into a slightly-springy and golden-clear mass (we use it to mount things

on slides which can't be subjected to the 100C heat required to set

modern rock-mounting apoxies).  It's a shame it's expensive, for my

gut reaction is that it would work.

 

The Venice turp I have is sold by Talens.  It is sticky and viscous, like

you would expect from a period turp.  But I suspect that it's been

cleaned up just a tad or that it's a composite substance (instead of

being just straight tree-poop).   Waldt and I are currently considering

"reconstituting" our postulated period turp by making a new emulsion

of the modern Venice turp (a la Talens) plus increasing amounts of pine-

derived rosin (some of the modern resins are NOT the same; go find a

good book on oleoresins and organic waxes, or score a copy of Gettins

and Stout.)

 

There are recipes of 16th century vintage which use lac from India.

We've not played with any of them, because we wanted to make the

medieval stuff.  The number of failures we've gone through has been

discouraging.   If anyone has succeeded in making a medieval turp-based

sealing wax, please email me direct since I'm really not on this list

(though lurking for the last day has been more interesting than any sca

list I've seen in a long long time...ah, *sigh*   If I only were finished with

the dissertation that ate my life...)

 

I'll be at Lillies, by the way, wearing the water-process cuir boulli breast

plate dyed with the dye I just made.  (Who? Me? Show off?!?!?) The icky

fishy smell has finally gone away...   (If you don't know me already, Alban

can direct you just fine.)  Copy of the recipe will be available, with

annotations by yours truly on what I learned while stinking up my abode yet

one more time in the pursuit of medieval material science...  (I'd post it now,

but I haven't written it up yet; and the thesis advisor is in China and I'm

running the lab by myself; and all his students with projects are after me for

help; aaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhggggggggg!!!!!!!!!!    I have suddenly developed a much

greater respect for the fellow that I have ever previously held!)

 

ttfn,

Therasia von Tux/helm at geology.ucdavis.edu

 

 

Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 09:42:03 -0400

From: Barbara Nostrand <bnostran at lynx.dac.neu.edu>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: sealing wax (a long Twcs rant)

 

Noble Cousins and especially Mistress Therasia von Tux!

 

The Krimminal museum purports to have on display (a display which I have seen)

a reconstruction of a medieval pendant wax seal.  The display includes the

seal under various stages of being created.  I don't know whether they used

period matterials or not as my copy of their museum book is currently in

storage.  However, how about writing to them and asking what they did?

Further, quite appart from the use of period recepies, we do have modern chemical analysis in the published literature.  Shouldn't those be used when evaluating the ingredients used in problematic period recepies? It seems to me that the meanings of more than a few words have drifted upon occasion and that

modern chemical analysis may help ferret out what they were really using,

what temperatures the wax was heated to, possibly whether the bees themselves

were different, etc.  Finally, what they were using may have been abandoned

simply because it was obnoxiously fussy.

 

                                    Your HUmble Servant

                                    Solveig Throndardottir

                                    Amateur Scholar

+-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

| Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D.             | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM         |

| de Moivre Institute                 | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est        |

| 676 Pullman Road 135                | 23 East Collings Avenue             |

| Moscow, Idaho  83843                | Collingswood, New Jersey 08108-8203 |

| mailto:bnostran at lynx.neu.edu     | (609) 854-8203                      |

+-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

 

 

Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 11:26:06 -0500

From: Wendy Robertson <wcrobert at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: sealing wax

 

Lughbec asked if the sources which had been cited included any recipes for

sealing wax.  In brief, no, none of the sources include recipes.  I have

looked at almost all of the sources cited, so what follows is a summary of

their content.

 

I have not looked at:

Pictures from the Crime Museum / [Christoph Hinckeldey] =96 Rothenberg,

Germany : Mittelalterliches Kriminalmuseum [1985]. (Mediaeval Crime Museum

publications). The section on seals is pp. 43-49.  (Thank you Cathal for

the full citation).

 

"The Composition of Some Medieval Wax Seals" by James Johnston Dobbie and

John Jacob Fox, Journal of the Chemical Society. Transactions, 105 (1914)

pp  795-800

The authors examined 10 wax seals (13th c, 1306, 1327, 1337, 1340, 1350,

1399, 1423, 1429, 1504), all from Britain.  Eight seals were colored

(verdigris, vermillion, and dark organic matter).  The two uncolored seals

(13th c and 1350) were of pure beeswax.  "In most other cases both beeswax

and resin were present in varying proportions.  The resin could not be

identified as the product of any particular conifer, except in two cases in

which it was found to give the usual reactions for colophony."  Cold

alcohol was used to separate the wax and the resin.  The authors state that

the unidentified resin was not sandarac, shellac, copal, mastic or certain

other gum resins.  The authors believe the resin is colophony or "Venice

turpentine".  There is a chart including the specific percentages of resin

and wax and pigment in each of the seals.  You could use the chart to try

to develop a recipe.

 

"Guide to Seals in the Public Record Office" by Sir Hilary Jenkinson,

London, H.M. Stationary Off., 1954.

In the discussion of materials, the above article is the source.  The

authors state; "Medieval seals were made in England with one material only

true sealing wax, consisting of about two-thirds beeswax to one-third of

some kind of resin. “Wax“ was ideal for pendant impressions from deeply

engraved matrices.  It was not suitable for seals "applied" to the surface

of documents (they tended to crack off)."  Shellac was introduced in the

16th century and was used for small seals applied to the face of the

document ("It is unsuitable, owing to the rapidity with which it hardens,

for large and for pendant seals.").

 

"The Nature and Treatment of Wax and Shellac Seals" by Chris Woods, Journal

of the Society of Archivists, 15:no.2 (1994), pp 203 -14.

This article discusses the condition of wax seals, why they have

deteriorated, and how they can be preserved.  Wax will deteriorate when

exposed to light and extreme temperatures.  It will also react with the

lime (calcium) used to make parchment.  Pure beeswax seals on parchment

tags(as opposed to silk cords) seem to be in the worst condition.  Red and

green seals do not deteriorate in the same way =96 the metals compounds

mixing with alcohol complexes to form stable compounds. "Colophony resin,

or more accurately rosin, is often cited as a constituent of wax seals.

The analysts did not report the presence of rosin in the samples of white

wax discussed above.  However, it is thought rosin was often added to wax

used for seals during the last 400 years."  I am not sure from the article

whether rosin was used in colored seals during the Middle Ages.

 

The above article cited:

"Organic components in historical non-metallic seals identified using

13C-NMR spectroscopy" by M. Cassar, G.V. Robins, R.A. Fletton, & A. Alstin.

Nature, v.303:no.5914 (1983) pp.238-9.

Only 4 seals were examined (1135-54, 1199-1216, 1830-37, unprovenianced

personal seal from Middle Ages) and compared with 14th c beeswax, modern

wax, colophony, and shellac.  The 3 medieval seals appear to be pure

beeswax.  Only the seal from the 19th century contains a resin, possibly

colophony.

 

A few months ago, I skimmed the relevant sections of:

"A Guide to British Medieval Seals"  by P.D.A. Harvey and Andrew

McGuinness, Toronto - Buffalo : University of Toronto Press, London:

British Library, Public Record Office, c1996.

It is in a friend’s personal library.  I do not remember it having any

recipes for sealing wax. I will try to look at this book so I can check my

memory.

 

I would be very interested in seeing any medieval recipes for sealing wax.

The only one I have stumbled across is in Mappae Clavicula, and as it

doesn’t call for beeswax, it is somewhat irrelevant to the current

discussion.  (It is for a golden sealing: "Mix 2 oz reddish natron and 3 oz

of minium. Grind with vinegar, add a little alum and leave it to dry.  Then

grind it and lay it aside.  Take about half an obol of gold filings and 1

oz of gold colored orpiment,  mix them all together, grind them and pour

over them pure gum soaked in water.  Take it out and seal what you want,

whether a letter or tablets.  Leave it for two days and the seal becomes

hard.")

 

I checked the rialto archives and only found one recipe quoted (posted by

Angharad ver' Rhuawn):

"To make red sealyng wax.

Take one pound of Wax .iii. ounces of cleare Tyrpentyne in Sommer, in

Winter take fowre: melte them together with a soft fyre: Then take it from

the fire and let it coole: Then put in Uermylion berye fynely grounde, and

Salet Oyle, of each an ounce, and mix them well together, and it is perfect

good."

From: John Partrige, The Treasurie of Commodious Conceipts and hidden

Secrets, 1573.

 

Does anyone have any medieval instructions for sealing wax?  Has anyone

tried using pure wax (no color, no resin added)?  This does seem to be very

period, and it might be a simple solution for people looking for a period

way to make pendant seals.

 

Ailene nic Aedain

Shire of Shadowdale, Calontir

mailto:wcrobert at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu

 

 

From: Todd Rich <torin at Xprimenet.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Sealing Wax

Date: 9 Oct 1997 11:15:00 -0700

 

Bratlord <bratlord at aol.com> wrote:

: >Hello. I am looking for a supplier, of Dennison's, Waterston, Pelican,

: >Guttenberg Wappenlack, which are all types of sealing waxes, I would

: >appreciate any help from your readers. Thank you Ronald E. Gonty

 

:  I haven't used sealing wax, in quite some time, but when I did, I found that

:  Hallmark stores usually carried a decent variety, of seals, and wax....might

:  try them.

 

: Tsumiyori

 

ObNitpick:  What Hallmark sells isn't wax, it's plastic! It has a wick

running through it which results in ash and burned plastic in your seal.

It is also excessively brittle, as it appears to made to be broken as soon

as the reciepient recieves it.  Also, when the 'wax' is being melted, it

behaves nearly like water.  Dennisons used to make a very high quality,

inexpensive wax, but currently don't.  There is an attempt that I know of

to get them to do a production run of their sealing wax again.  I'm not

that familar with the other suppliers listed, other than I have gotten

some relativly high quiality inks from Pelikan.  I am aware that

Dragonmarsh does sell a high quality sealing wax.  It's a little pricy,

but it's the good stuff.  I would recommend if you are going to seal a lot

of stuff to get the $10 sticks instead of the $5 ones. They have an

online account at AOL, but I don't remember the address exacty, you might

try alta vista or deja news to find them.

                        Torin

                          Nitpicky Scribe

 

 

From: shipbrk at gate.net (Jeff Lee)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Sealing Wax

Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 19:28:32 GMT

 

Todd Rich <torin at Xprimenet.com> wrote:

> Bratlord <bratlord at aol.com> wrote:

>:>Hello. I am looking for a supplier, of Dennison's, Waterston, Pelican,

>:>Guttenberg Wappenlack, which are all types of sealing waxes, I would

>:>appreciate any help from your readers. Thank you Ronald E. Gonty

>:

>: I haven't used sealing wax, in quite some time, but when I did, I found that

>:  Hallmark stores usually carried a decent variety, of seals, and wax....might

>:  try them.

>

> ObNitpick:  What Hallmark sells isn't wax, it's plastic!

 

I got this off the Rialto a few years ago.  It may be of some interest.

Unfortunately, I didn't think to keep the original attribution.

 

        The manufacture of a good and faithful sealing wax.

 

The purposes of a sealing wax are threefold: imprimus, to seal a missive

so as to protect it against unwonted investigation; secundus, to seal a

missive so as to invigilate against falsification; et tertius, to give

witness that the missive comes from the hand from which it purports to

arise, by carrying the imprint of a greater or lesser seal.

 

To accomplish these purposes,  the wax must have certain and diverse

qualities.  It must adhere to the paper or parchement so tenaciously

that it may not be prised off with impunity.  It must be of such a

nature so that when any attempt is made to prise or cut it from its

paper that it shall fly into a thousand shards.  Yet it must also be so

durable so that the passage of time or the thousand little insults that

might ensue unto its normal life, shall not break or mar it.

 

A simple seal of beeswax can ne'er be pressed to serve, for that it is

but child's play to cut it along the seam, whereby then to read the

contents of the missive, and then to press the seal back together again

with a heated spatula so as to erase any indication that one has assayed

to breach the security of the seal.

 

On the other hand, a seal made of shellac shall also ne'er serve, for

that it is too intemperate and hard and will too easily break upon the

lightest blow.  And belike as not, it will not adhere to a paper when

attached thereto, so that oftimes it would pop loose without any

encouragement, and bear false witness against the messager.

 

However, when two substances of opposite humours are married, then a

union true unto its purpose shall be obtained, suitable in all degrees

and means.  Thus shellac can be tempered with rosin, or turpentine, or

beeswax, to obtain a good and true sealing wax.

 

To make thy wax, takest thou first 4 parts of shellac, and place it in a

pan over a heat of the second degree.   Once it begins to melt, then add

by degrees 2 parts of good turpentine, and thereafter add 1 part of

rosin.  Now thou moucht cast thy colorant upon it; for red thou shouldst

add 2 parts of vermillion, whereas for blue thou shouldst stir in 1 part

of Prussian blue.  An thou wouldst have a green seal, then thou shouldst

add to a blue wax the halve of one part of yellow chrome, and 1 part of

magnesia.    Before thou dost cast in thy colorant stir it up first with

a small measure of turpentine, so that a paste is formed. And at all

stages have thy servants stir this mixture so fast as they may, so that

none doth stick and burn upon the floor of thy pan.  Once these matters

have all been married, then thou may form it into sticks by pouring it

upon a marble plate in the same fashion as a candy maker doth, and

rolling it back and forth with a smoothed wooden block. An thy wax be

too hard, or not tenacious enough to thy paper,  thou mayest temper it

by adding up to 2 parts of goodly beeswax.

--

Jeff Lee (KoX/SP5/INTJ)   shipbrk at gate.net   http://www.gate.net/~shipbrk/

 

 

From: iguana <jevon at cjnetworks.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Sealing Wax

Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 16:30:45 -0700

Organization: xyorn inc.

 

Hallmark used to sell a very good sealing wax years ago and then stoped

selling it.  When they started selling it again it was that britle

plastic garbage instead of the stuff they had before.  I have tried

talking to several store managers but none could remember where the

good stuff had come from.  I curently use lapidary or jewlers wax (the

type used for lost wax casting) and it has excelent mechanical

properties as a sealing wax

 

jevon

 

 

From: ronch at gator.net (Ron Charlotte)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Sealing Wax

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:05:30 GMT

 

Last year I bought a large amount of sealing wax from a ren faire

vendor called Crane's Post.  I've since lost their mailing address,

but I still have the phone number (816) 284-6677.  I think that they

are out of Missouri or thereabouts.

 

They were selling 1 pound boxes of Dennison type 1, grade A for a very

good price.

--

  al Thaalibi ---- An Crosaire, Trimaris

  Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL

 

 

From: tadhg at bigfoot.com (Tim of Angle)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: sealing wax!!??

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 12:13:17 GMT

Organization: EDS

 

Scripsit txdi1990 at aol.com (Txdi1990) :

> Where can I get some Sealing Wax?  Used to be that we could get it in office

>  supplies stores but not in this little town I'm living in.

 

Try Scribes Delight in Boston (http://www.scribesdelight.com/)

================================================================================

Fra Tadhg Liath OFT                                           tadhg at bigfoot.com

The Grumpiest Pelican

 

 

Subject: Sealing Wax

Date: Sun, 12 Jul 98 10:46:41 MST

From: Alfredo Giambastiani <enter at brnet.com.br>

To: "'markh at risc.sps.mot.com'" <markh at risc>

 

Dear Mr. Harris,

 

Searching about sealing wax I came to your collection. I live in Brazil and

make marriage invitations in handmade paper. These fit perfectly with period

seals. Unfortunately it is very difficult to find sealing wax here and more

than that make them. I read all the recipes and will try some. The solution

I found was making a similar seal with a mixture of glue and starch, cut it

into rounded pieces, applying the signet and painting with spray colors.

After many attempts I came to a very fine seal-like. But the traditional

seal still attracts me and I would appreciate joining your group.

 

Maria Augusta F. Costa

Brasília, Brazil

 

 

Subject: Re: ANST - Re: Scrolls & Charters - Thank you

Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 08:18:31 MST

From: Dr Tiomoid of Angle <tiomoid at yahoo.com>

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

 

--- marsha.greene at mpan.com wrote:

> When you are talking 'historical' seals, they are usually attached to

> the tail end of the document, which has been folded in some special

> way, with a ribbon run through the paper, and dangling down.

 

Usually braided silk or leather cords were used. To form the tail

through which the cords were run, they just folded it over a time or

two, and cut slits through the whole stack. Parchment is pretty tough;

this makes a pretty secure hanging place.

 

> Instead of the wax poured directly onto the paper, the best

> historical way I have seen is that the sealing wax is melted into

> a small open disk (sort of like a bottle top) which holds the wax,

> then the seal is placed in the wax.

 

Pendent seals were most common, and almost invariably used in Britain,

but directly on the parchment ("en plaquet") was more common in France,

and certainly an option if our concern is authenticity. Royal seals

typically had two parts, forming an obverse and reverse on the

resulting seal (Cf. Harvey & McGuinness, A GUIDE TO BRITISH MEDIEVAL

SEALS, University of Toronto Press, 1996, ISBN 0802008674). You pour

wax into the reverse, lay the cords over it, pour in more wax, clamp

the obverse on it, and the whole shebang goes into a screw press. I've

seen the outfit used for the Great Seal of the United States (which is

a good 6" in diameter); it has weights on the arms of the screw press

that are brass and the size of grapefruit.

 

> Generally, we do not get this complex on our signing with seals as

> a rule, and most people set the process up wrong.

 

Well, we *are* an educational organization....

 

> A major problem with seals is that they can dry up and crack and fall

> off..

 

Sealing wax is, by its nature, somewhat brittle -- which is not a bad

thing, when the document is sealed closed and somebody needs to break

the seal to get into it -- and often metal cases were made for

protective purposes. That's a bit more elaborate than we need to do, of

course.

 

> secondly, in our heat, big problems if a scroll is left in a car or

> even out in the open.

 

I doubt that REAL sealing wax -- Dennison #2, for example -- would be

bothered by even Texas summer heat.

 

> I think its a 'pretty' idea, and can be really nice, if done

> correctly... but should probably be reserved for the very artistic

> handworked scrolls, in my humble opinion.

 

Of course.

 

Fra Tadhg Liath OFT

The Grumpiest Pelican

 

 

Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 20:39:37 -0500

From: Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue at thibault.org>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Sealing Wax

 

There's a whole bunch of discussion here about sealing wax and period

types for SCA use:

http://castle.org/pipermail/scribes/2003-December/thread.html#2800

--

Cynthia Virtue and/or

Cynthia du Pré Argent

 

<the end>



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