calligraphy-msg - 2/5/08 Inks, papers, calligraphic styles. NOTE: See also the files: callig-suppl-msg, inks-msg, parchment-msg, paper-msg, quills-msg, sealing-wax-msg, alphabets-msg, early-books-msg, wax-tablets-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: DICKSNR%QUCDN.BITNET at MITVMA.MIT.EDU ("Ross M. Dickson") Date: 17 Nov 89 05:06:00 GMT Organization: Society for Creative Anachronism Greetings once again from Sarra Graeham, who evidently finds posting to the Rialto *much* more fun than working on scrolls . . . (sigh) Most of the books recommended so far are lovely picture books that give many good ideas about what to do, but say very little about how to do it. If I were to get someone started on calligraphy with books, these would be my choices: Drogin, Marc. _Medieval Calligraphy: Its History and Technique_, Allanheld and Schram, Montclair, 1980. Available in most major university libraries, and still in print, this is the *best* book for our purposes in existence. Gives step-by-step instruc- tions for each hand so simple a rank novice can follow it, and is chock full of pictures of actual manuscripts. Accept no substitutes. Bain, George. _Celtic Art: The Methods of Construction_, Dover Publications Inc., New York, 19??. Gives wonderfully clear instructions about how knotwork and all the other goodies in Celtic art is done. Ignore his instructions on how to do Celtic calligraphy, though, and use Drogin instead. Angel, Marie. _Painting for Calligraphers_, ?? (Sorry, don't own the book) Although this is a modern book, it has some good instructions about painting technique, tools, media, etc., all with the needs of a calligrapher in mind. Thompson, Daniel V. _The Materials and Techniques of Medieval Painting_, Dover Publications Inc., New York, 1956. ISBN 0-486-20327-1 Not a book for the rank beginner, but an excellent research work on how exactly the medievals went about painting. The author has done a lot of research on the actual chemistry of medieval art. Hope this helps. Sarra Graeham, Ealdormere Signet | Heather Fraser Canton of Greyfells, Midrealm | Kingston, Ontario, CANADA From: joshua at paul.rutgers.edu (Joshua Mittleman) Date: 17 Nov 89 18:02:06 GMT Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J. hello there! Long time no post. Some new info on scribe sources for you: 1) George Braziller publishers has moved. I'll post the new address on monday. They are now on Madison Ave. in NY city. 2) Marc Drogin's book _Medieval Calligraphy..._ is out of print, but is due BACK IN PRINT as of November 17 by Dover books in paperback. Your local bookstore should be able to order it in 1 week. I'll post their address (they have SUPER catalogs) monday as well. From: norteman at discvr.enet.dec.com ("My brain is hanging upside-down.") Date: 22 Nov 89 14:45:18 GMT Organization: Society for Creative Anachronism Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Greetings, all, from Ariel. Thanks to Fionnghuala (and Rayah) for the excellent list of sources for scribes. I plan to send for everything that I don't already get! Here's the address of another bookshop I often visit. Their main business is in books about books and collectors' editions of certain authors, but their interests have branched out into bookbinding, calligraphy and illumination, and the making of books before printing. The Colophon Bookshop (Robert and Christine Liska, props.) 117 Water Street Exeter, NH 03833 Write for their book lists, which come out bimonthly (or more often, sometimes). Most of what they sell won't be of interest to the mediaeval scribe, but I've found some real treasures through them. William: Thanks for the description of the half-hour scroll. My "quickies" usually take two hours or more, but I still want to make sure that even those will survive the ravages of time. I never use marker for anything -- I've seen ten-year-old scrolls done with markers (or signed in marker) in which the ink has all but disappeared. The best SCA publication I've ever seen on scribal stuff is Crossed Quills, More [Y,n]? the Midrealm calligraphers' newsletter. Does anyone from the Midrealm (Sarra?) have Beryl de Folo's address handy and can post it to this forum? Anyway, I recommend this newsletter VERY highly for the wealth of useful information it contains: facsimiles of historical hands, sample layouts in different styles, illumination techniques and samples... scribes everywhere should find it fascinating. Best of all, you can barter photocopies or slides of your work for issues! Enough from this ink-stained wretch. --Ariel of Caer Myrddin (Karen J. Norteman) Shire of Malagentia (Portland, Maine) East Kingdom <norteman%discvr.dec at decwrl.dec.com> The most recent address I have for FoLump Enterprises is: 805 East Green #1, Urbana IL 61801. It's about six years old, so it may or may not work. From: norteman at discvr.enet.dec.com (Casting runes on the rooftops) Date: 16 Jan 90 20:04:31 GMT Organization: Society for Creative Anachronism Greetings, all, from Ariel. Marc Drogin's book Mediaeval Calligraphy: Its History and Technique has just hit the bookshelves again, after a long absence. This time it's been reprinted by Dover Books. You can order it by mail if it's not at your friendly local bookstore. Price is $10.95, order number 0-486-26142-5. The publisher is: Dover Publications, Inc. 31 East 2nd Street Mineola, NY 11501 Yo Carolingians! Barilleri Books, the new bookstore in Harvard Square, has a whole bunch of copies. They're 10% off, too. For those of you not familiar with Drogin's book, this is a must-have. Drogin discusses the history of mediaeval calligraphy from AD 400 till the end of the 15th century, "after which that instrument of the Devil, the printing press, was invented and changed the course of calligraphic history" (quote his). Drogin also talks about the alphabets, the materials used, the scribes them- selves, and even the patron demon of calligraphy, Titivullus. There are lots of writing samples, actual bits of documents to look at, and (of course) a heavy dose of Drogin's humour. Go out and get this book, or get the acquisitions librarian or your local Guild head to order it. Trust me -- this is well worth having. --Ariel of Caer Myrddin (Karen J. Norteman) Shire of Malagentia (Portland, Maine) East Kingdom <norteman%discvr.dec at decwrl.dec.com> From: aiden at NCoast.ORG (Steven Otlowski) Date: 9 Apr 91 23:35:14 GMT Organization: North Coast Public Access Un*x (ncoast) Problems with ink bleeding can also be helped by using Gum Sandarac. It can be mail ordered from a number of calligraphy shops. It is a tree gum resin. If finely powdered and dusted onto the paper it helps prevent bleeding. It is also particularly usefull if you have made a correction and injured the original "sizing" on the paper. Aiden Elfeadur - From: amanda at visix.com (Amanda Walker) Date: 23 Jul 91 15:06:09 GMT Organization: Visix Software Inc., Reston, VA DICKSNR at qucdn.queensu.ca ("Ross M. Dickson") writes: >I hope m'lady will find this a >happy addition rather than an offensive contradiction, Just so, m'lord :). >Goose quills were used, and I don't believe any of the treatments you >describe were performed -- in particular the heat treatment. The quill >was carefully cut into the appropriate shape using an Exacto knife. If the quill is fairly large (and thus has relatively thick walls), the heat treatment is less necessary. It's mainly a way of improving the likely results for many quills. >Her observation was that the flexibility of the quill and the smoothness >of the parchment made the quality of the lines obtained *immensely* >superior to anything she could do with a steel nib on paper. Indeed. Writing with a quill on vellum or parchment is nothing at all like writing with a steel pen on paper. Utter bliss... >She would be delighted to hear of other sources dealing with quill-cutting. I believe that Johnston covered it in "Writing, Illuminating, and Lettering." I taught myself from The Calligrapher's Handbook (put out by the the Society of Scribes & Illuminators in England, and I believe out of print). >Sarra, however, found no advantage whatsoever to cutting a slit in the >goose quill pen, and indeed it was just a good way to ruin the tip. The slit is *very* tricky to get right, but it can help a lot in evening out the ink flow. This is where heat treating helps, as it makes the quill less likely to splinter when a slit is cut. >She suspects that the slit-cutting was not described simply because it >wasn't done. My sources are at home, but I believe that it was done, albeit not universally. I am, however, happy to defer to greater expertise--the first way I tried worked fine, so I've stuck with it. I know Master Aiden has done quite a bit with quills (and found a source for quill knives), and might be able to contribute some experience as well. -- Arwen <amanda at visix.com> Scribe at Small From: cat at fgssu1.sinet.slb.COM (Insignificant Pondscum) Date: 24 Jul 91 17:07:23 GMT To quote Amanda: "I taught myself from The Calligrapher's Handbook (put out by the Society of Scribes and Illuminators in England, and I believe out of print)." If you were referring to the blue covered Calligrapher's Handbook which is editted by Heather Child, then it is still in print. If you can't find it, you can mail order it from Amsterdam Art on University in Berkeley CA - they always have it in stock. If someone out there is doing scribal stuff, I recommend this book highly. It's got really good stuff in it, like recipes for gum ammoniac, gesso sotile, parchement and vellum prep, pigments-to-paints, and other gems. In my not so humble opinion, it's a must-have for anyone of scribal pretensions. (For people who I have taught scribal stuff to, I usually give them a copy if they look at all serious about doing scrolls). The mythical Mistress Aldith Anharad St. George says: "buy this book!" Tux ************************************************************************ * Meisterin Therasia von Tux, OP * "Imitation is the surest * * cat at fgssu1.sinet.slb.com * indication of butt sucking" * * * - the mythical Mistress Aldith * * * Anharad St. George * ************************************************************************ From: bhw at aifh.ed.ac.uk (Barbara H. Webb (Phd 89)) Date: 24 Jul 91 13:38:49 GMT Organization: Dept AI, Edinburgh University, Scotland I'm afraid I missed the first posting (Arwen's) about quills (if someone would mail me a copy I would be grateful). But the second post didn't tally at all with my experience with quills so I thought I would add some comments. I assume the basic shaping methods have been covered already. I have been cutting and using quills for about two years now and I find the vast superiority of the resulting calligraphy makes them well worth the effort. Unfortunately I still can't cut a perfect quill every time, but the average is improving. I use goose feathers, and I find only the larger ones are stiff enough to be useful. I treat them by soaking in vinegar overnight and then heating them by putting them in hot sand (heated in the oven) and this definitely helps by making them stiffer (a quick method that gives reasonably results is to hold them carefully over a flame for a few moments, but this sometime results in a smell of burning feathers!). Turkey feathers seem to be okay as well (treat same way). I use a curved scalpel blade (easy to get at art shops) to cut the nib shape, and the blade from a safety razor to cut the slit, then the scalpel blade to do the essential final shaping - a diagonal shaving of the top of the tip (gives incredibly fine lines) and a sharp very straight cut across the top (this is one I haven't yet mastered to my satisfaction, but it must be a perfectly straight edge for the pen to behave well, especially using paper (I wish I could afford vellum!)). I found the critical part in getting working pens was the slit and it leaves me in some amazement that someone would find the slit unnecessary. I can only assume that the pen is being used in a completely different way, with small amounts of ink on the tip being spread across the paper, rather than the ink being very gradually fed by the slit to the tip of the pen. By the first method I could only get a few letters without redipping, whereas with slitted pens you get ten to twenty or more words from a drop of ink loaded into the pen by a paintbrush. This seems practical evidence that they did use pens with slits (I'm certain they didn't write a few letters at a time) but there is also instructions for making a slit in the pen in several medieval artists handbooks (sorry, refs not handy, but could be acquired) and illuminations of scribes that clearly show pens with slits in them. The problem I had with the slit was that putting pressure on the pen for writing would make the two sections of the tip part slightly, opening the slit and stopping the flow of ink (it works by osmosis). Using the pen upside down over came this but wasn't a satisfactory solution - you don't get such nice writing (although it's still better than lots of calligraphy fountain pens). The solution of this problem was three-fold 1. The use of a stiffer quill (see above) which doesn't open under pressure 2. The use of a very fine blade (see above) to get a very fine and even slit 3. Cutting the slit shorter and the nib into a more square shape than the shape of modern steel nibs, which also counteracts the tendency of the sides to part. As I mention above, having this sort of pen work requires a very straight edge, because the ink is drawn onto the width of the tip of the nib by osmosis when the tip is flat against the paper, so any irregularites will disturb the flow of ink (yes you do need smooth sorts of paper but I assume that's what you use). It can be a frustrating buisness try to trim a nib into shape (and once you've used it a while it needs retrimming) but the results are WONDERFUL as anyone who has tried a good nib will know. I hope these observations will be useful to other scribes: and I would certainly be interested in hearing how others have fared in their experiments with quill pens. And I would advise any calligraphers to try it some time - there are calligraphic strokes in medieval scripts that you just _can't do_ with a modern pen, but they flow beautifully from a quill! I'm just sorry this medium doesn't permit me to demonstrate :-) In service, Caitlin de Courcy. 23 Jan 92 PTH 1:109/401.0 at FidoNet From: henwe at sssab.se (Henric Weyde) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Organization: Scandinavian System Support AB FREE THE SCRIBES **************** Greetings unto the good people on the Rialto, My humble suggestion: The Gutenberg printing was introduced in the 15th century. i know for certain that by 1470 absolution letters were preprinted forms where only the place, date, time, name and price was left out to be filled in by hand. (What a pity this invention was made for every administration in this world to follow without any restain). So, make or find an appropriate original, get hold of an old type handmade paper and use a modern type of photocopier. If you want a paper to achieve the appearance of a parchement, oil it with raw linessed oil and turpentine (50/50). If you want to add a seal use a jute string and a porcelaineclay that will harden in an oven. My facsimile absolution letter, original from 1485 found in the Swedish national archives is considered good enough to appear at a medieaval exhibition at the local museum. Depending on the occasion this might be something to consider? /Your humble servant Bartolomeo di Camerino alias Henric Weyde Date: 31 Jan 92 From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations "Perhaps our scribes could improve their visibility in some way." (Fiacha) This suggests an interesting way of combining visibility with appreciation. I believe that period scribes in at least some period cultures had pen cases--things they wore that held pens, perhaps ink, etc. I have not checked any details, but I am pretty sure I remember a pen case as one of the charges described in "Mamluk Heraldry," and I think there are similar things in Christian Europe. How about a kingdom project (by the non-scribes) to research what pen cases looked like, make a lot of recognizably similar ones, and, over time, present one to every scribe who does award scrolls. That would both be a thankyou and make it easier to recognize scribes who did award scrolls. Cariadoc 31 Jan 92 From: branwen at flipper.ccc.amdahl.com (Karen Williams) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA In article <9201301851.AA27232 at premise.prime.com.> nathan at premise.prime.COM (Nathan Kronenfeld) writes: >Official scrolls are far from the only possible place to use one's >calligraphic skill. Before I assign scrolls to people, I need to see an example of their calligraphy and illumination. For new people, this is difficult, since they haven't done anything yet. I have been having them just do a scroll, but in the few cases were the scroll isn't acceptable but they think it's just lovely, I have a problem. So recently I've decided that for new people, as a warrant piece I'll have them illuminate a period poem. That way, they can take home their work, and if I can't use their first effort, they still can. Branwen ferch Emrys The Mists, the West -- Karen Williams branwen at flipper.ras.amdahl.com Re: Scribal visibility 3 Feb 92 From: habura at vccnorthb.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY Cariadoc asks for information on European pen holders. Ther is one that I became aware of through heraldry (what else? Boy, I'm in a rut. Someone talk about embroidery, quick!). The Worshipful Company of Scriveners of the City of London, a period guild, have in their arms an eagle holding in the beak an object called a "penner and inkhorn". It consists of a scabbard-shaped object with a cap, which seems to be a pen holder, and a squat container (probably an ink bottle), connected by two lengths of cord. Pathetic ASCII art follows. Bear with me. X*****---------/ /------------------*****X ****************** ********* ****************** pen holder #********* ****************** bottle #********* ****************** #********* ****************** ********* X*****--------/ /-------------------*****X The X's are knots in the cord. The cord is run through little tubes on the sides of the containers and knotted. The pen holder is longer than it looks, and is pointed at the bottom. The eagle in the Scriveners' arms holds this object by the cord, with the two containers dangling down on either side. It appears that this object would do nicely on a belt (with the inkhorn empty, or with a very good stopper). It has the advantage of being distinctive, easy to carry prominently, and easy and cheap to make in its simplest form. Sounding off as usual, Alison MacDermot Contacting John the Artificer (period pigments, etc.) 4 Feb 92 From: Marion.Kee at a.nl.cs.cmu.EDU Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Greeting to the Rialto from Marian Greenleaf: [Master] John the Artificer, O.L., may be contacted as: John Rose 250 Emerson St. Pittsburgh, PA 15206 (412) 362-0421 You might want to put an "Attention: ordering pigments" line, or some such, on the envelope. Or just call him and find out what to send him. If you write for information, I recommend sending an SASE. John also is a source for woad seeds, information on ferret breeding, and a number of other interesting items both material and intellectual. He speaks barter, although cash has a lot of appeal. If you're really interested in learning something from him, let him know; he really likes teaching interested people, although he can be abrupt at times. --Marian 18 May 92 From: jtn at nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Unto the good gentles of the Rialto does Lord Hossein Ali Qomi send greetings and prayers for the blessings of Allah. Lord Jeremy de Merstone recently posted a perceptive comment on "official" calligraphy in the SCA: >The main problem with award scrolls is that their period counterparts >(when anybody bothered to set them down on a special piece of parchment/ >paper/vellum/whatever in the first place, as opposed to just recording >them on a list in a ledger someplace during a visitation) were simply >not very decorative. They weren't meant to be. The important part was >*what* the thing said ("So-and-so and his progeny have the right to do >such-and-such, signed, The King"), and not how they *looked*. [As with >anything, there were occasional exceptions to this general statement, >but this held pretty well true until after the SCA's period.] Lord Jeremy is by and large quite right about the general lack of decoration in official documents -- letters patent, charters, writs, etc. -- in the medieval period. However, his example -- "So-and-so and his progeny have the right to do such-and-such, signed The King" -- isn't quite so correct. The formularies in official documents varied widely by time and place and, indeed, a substantial branch of the paleographic science, diplomatics, is given to the analysis of such formularies. I have found that most calligraphers in the SCA tend toward the kinds of book hands and illumination which were not characteristic of medieval official documents for two reasons. First, book calligraphy and illumination is more aesthetically pleasing to many; it's very pretty and it catches the eye right readily. The problem is that medieval official documents weren't designed to catch the eye. Second, book calligraphy and illumination are far more commonly available as exemplars than medieval official document texts -- coffeetable books of illuminated manuscripts, while expensive, are usually available in any good bookstore; facsimiles of official documents are generally not. I do _only_ official document recreations. The reasons are simple. I'm the lousiest artist in the SCA and most book hands and fancy illumination are simply beyond my capacity. I use Latin paleography and diplomatics in my mundane research and am familiar with the abbreviation systems and court/secretarial hands, particularly those used in English and Imperial chanceries. Finally, I think authenticity is more important than aesthetics -- harried clerks and scribes in royal chanceries weren't that concerned with beauty, they had mountains of parchment-work to sort through daily. I've had the advantage of formal training in paleography and acquaintance with a wide range of paleographic and diplomatic studies and have collected a bibliography of useful texts and facsimiles of official documents suitable for exemplars for analogous SCA scrolls. I have edited the bibliography down to things which most university libraries will probably have; there are roughly another hundred rarer facsimile collections which one is likely to find only in major research libraries at institutions which grant Ph.D.s in medieval history (if anyone is _truly_ interested, I'd be happy to email that list as well, when I shan't be needing my hands for anything after all that typing). The following is a lengthy, but partial, bibliography of sources for texts and/or facsimiles of period diplomata: _Album paleographique ou Recueil de documents importants relatifs a l'histoire et a la litterature nationales_ (Paris, 1887). C. Bemont, _Chartes des libertes anglaises_ (Paris, 1902). T.A.M.Bishop and P. Chaplais, _Facsimiles of English Royal Writs to A.D. 1100)_ (Oxford, 1957). T.A.M. Bishop, _Scriptores Regis: Facsimiles to Identify and Illustrate the Hands of Royal Scribes in Original Carters of Henry I, Stephen, and Henry II_ (Oxford, 1955). A. de Bouard, _Manuel de diplomatique francaise et pontificale_ (Paris, 1925). B. de Broussillon, _Cartulaire de l'abbaye de Saint-Aubin d'Angers_ (Paris, 1903). P. Chevreux and J. Vernier, _Les Archives de Normandie et de la Seine- Inferieure: recueil de facsimiles_ (Rouen, 1911). H.W.C. Davies, _Regesta Regum Anglo-Normannorum_ (Oxford, 1913). L.Delisle and E. Berger, _Recueil des Actes de Henry II concernant les provinces francaises et les affaires de France_ (Paris, 1909-27). N. Denholm-Young, _Handwriting in England and Wales_ (Cardiff, 1954). D.C. Douglas, _Feudal Documents from the Abbey of Bury St. Edmunds_ (London, 1932). Sir G.F. Duckett, _Charters and Records Among the Archives of the Ancient Abbey of Cluny_ (Lewes, 1888). _Facsimiles of Ancient Charters in the British Museum_ (London, 1876- 78). _Facsimiles of Early Charters in Northamptonshire Collections_ (Northampton, 1930). E. Falconi, _L'edizione diplomatica del documento e del manoscritto_ (Parma, 1969). W. Farrer, _Early Yorkshire Charters_ (Edinburgh, 1914-16). H. Fichtenau, _Das Urkundenwesen in Oesterreich vom 8. bis zum fruehen 13. Jahrhundert_ (Vienna, 1971). V. Federici, _La Scrittura delle cancellerie italiane dal secolo XII al XVII_ (Rome, 1934). F. Gasparri, _L'Ecriture des actes de Louis VI, Louis VII, et Phillippe Auguste_ (Geneva, 1973). B.E.C. Guerard, _Cartulaire de Saint-Pere de Chartres_ (Paris, 1840). N.D. Harding, _Bristol Charters, 1155-1373_ (Bristol, 1930). W.H. Hart and P.A. Lyons, _Cartularium Monasterii de Rameseia_ (London, 1884-93). W. Hunt, _Two Chartularies of the Priory of St. Peter of Bath_ (Somerset, 1893). C. Johnson and H. Jenkinson, _English Court Hand, A.D. 1066-1500_ (Oxford, 1915). H. Jenkinson, _The Later Court Hands in England from the XVth to the XVII Century_ (Cambridge, 1927). W.T. Lancaster, _Chartulary of the Prior of Bridlington_ (Leeds, 1912). A.C. Laurie, _Early Scottish Charters prior to 1153_ (Glasgow, 1905). E. de Lepinois and L. Merlet, _Cartulaire de Notre-Dame de Chartres_ (Chartres, 1861-65). L.C. Lloyd and D.M. Stenton, _Sir Christopher Hatton's Book of Seals_ (Oxford, 1950). T. Madox, _Formulare Anglicanum, or a Collection of Ancient Charters_ (London, 1702). J. Mallon, _L'Ecriture de la chancellerie imperiale romaine_ (Salamanca, 1948). E. Monaci, et al. _Archivo Paleografico Italiano_ (Rome, 1882- ) [15 vols.] _Monumenta Germaniae Historica_ [a series of dozens of volumes providing texts for virtually all the extant Merovingian, Carolingian, and Holy Roman Imperial manuscripts, as well as patristic and ecclesiastical literature -- breathtakingly exhaustive German scholarship at its best]. E. Prou, _Recueil de fac-similes d'ecritures du Ve au XVIIe siecle_ (Paris, 1904). A.J. Robertson, _Anglo-Saxon Charters_ (Cambridge, 1939). J.H. Round, _Ancient Charters Royal and Private Prior to A.D. 1200_ (London, 1888). J.H. Round, _Calendar of Documents Preserved in France_ (London, 1900). H.E. Salter, _The Boarstall Cartulary_ (Oxford, 1930). H.E. Salter, _Facsimiles of Early Charters in Oxford Muniment Rooms_ (Oxford, 1929). W.B. Sanders, _Facsimiles of Anglo-Saxon Manuscripts_ (Southampton, 1878-84). F. Sauer and J. Stummvoll, _Codices Selecti Phototypice Impressi_ (Graz, 1960-1979). G.C. Simpson, _Scottish Handwriting, 1150-1650_ (Edinburgh, 1973). F.M. Stenton, _English Feudalism_ (Oxford, 1932). F.M. Stenton, _Transcripts of Charters Relating to Gilbertine Houses_ (Lincoln, 1922). R. Thommen, _Urkendenlehre_ (Leipzig/Berlin, 1913). J.J. Vernier, _Chartes de l'abbaye de Jumieges_ (Rouen, 1916). G.F. Warner and H.J. Ellis, _Facsimiles of Royal and Other Charters in the British Museum_ (London, 1903). C.E. Wright, _English Vernacular Hands from the Twelfth to the Fifteenth Centuries_ (Oxford, 1960). I hope that a bibliography of this sort is useful. In Service to the Society, Hossein Ali Qomi Subject:Awards & scrolls Date: 25 May 92 From: perkins at msupa.pa.msu.EDU (Jeremy de Merstone) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Organization: The Internet Arval writes: > Graydon, you made one side point that caught my eye: > > > First off, the whole SCA concept of 'scroll' is a modern construction. > > I have only encountered such words as 'writ' and 'charter' and 'letters > > close' and 'letters patent' and 'capitulary' in reference to medieval > > legal documents. So the name is invented. > > Excellent point; let us dedicate ourselves to stamping out that word, and > adopting the more authentic terms. Can anyone give us precise definitions > of these terms and others related? Wait! Before anyone goes around "stamping out" the word "scroll", let's check the OED. Notes: "a" in front of a date means "before" (from _ante_); I have represented the letters "edh" and "thorn" by <th>, and the letter "yogh" by <y>; meanings without bearing on the discussion have been ignored, as have all OOP citations, and in-period citations beyond a limit of two per meaning. Scroll (meaning 1) A roll of paper or parchment, usually one with writing upon it. 14.. Nom. in Wr.-Wulcker 682/26 "Hec sidulo, a scrowle" a1513 FABYAN Chron VII (1533) 152b "He therfore redde the scrowle of resignacyon him selfe..." Scrowe (meaning 1) = SCROLL, meaning 1 a1225 Ancr. R. 282 "<Y>if <th>u hauest knif o<th>er clo<th>, mete o<th>er drunch, scrowe o<th>er quaer, holi monne uroure." 13.. Coer de L. 3395 "Looke every mannys name thou wryte, Upon a scrowe off parchemyn." Roll (meaning I.1) A piece of parchment, paper, or the like, which is written upon or intended to contain writing, etc., and is rolled up for convenience of handling or carrying; a scroll. a1225 Ancr. R. 344 "Nis non so lutel <th>inng of <th>eos <th>et <th>e deouel naue<th> enbreued on his rolle." 1303 R. BRUNNE Handl. Synne 9287 "Wy<th> hys te<th>e he gan to drawe,.. <Th>at hys rolle to-braste and ro<s>e." (meaning I.2) {spec.} Such a piece of parchment, paper, etc. inscribed with some formal or official record; a document or instrument in this form. 1377 LANGL. P. Pl. B, xix, 460 "With _spiritus_intellectus_ they seke <th>e reues rolles." 1433 Rolls of Parl. IV 479/1 "That the rolles of accounte of the Baillifs, and the rentall rolle,.. and all Court rolles been putte and kepte in the cofre." [In Latin documents of the time, the terms "Sedulum" (1224), "Rotulus" (1142) and "Rollus" (1162), along with spelling variants and specifying adjectives were used for what we would call a "scroll".] As for Graydon's suggestions: Writ (meaning 3) A formal writing or paper of any kind; a legal document or instrument. a1122 O. E. Chron. (Laud. MS) an.963 "Hu se papa Agatho hit feostnode mid his write". a1200 in Kemble Cod. Dipl. IV 203 "Ich mid <th>usen write <y>elde and <y>eue...." (the more general meaning of "that which is written" goes back at least to the 10th century; a detour into French and back gave the synonym "escript" found from the late 15th century till after 1700) Charter (etymol. discussion) lit. A leaf of paper (in OE, called "boc", BOOK); a legal document or 'deed' written (usually) upon a single sheet of paper, parchment, or other material, by which grants, cessions, contracts, and other transactions are confirmed and ratified. (meaning 1) A written document delivered by the sovereign or legislature: [goes on to give specific reasons for such delivery with examples going back to the 13th century, including the Magna Carta] (meaning 2) A written evidence, instrument, or contract executed between man and man : [examples in three sub-categories from the 13th century on] (meaning 4) As a rendering of L. _charta_ taken: Paper; a paper, writing, letter, document, etc. [examples from 14th century from the Wyclif Bible] Letters Close ... the term doesn't seem to appear in the OED under either "letter" or "close". There is mention of "close rolls" being collections of "close writs" (grants under the Great Seal to private individuals for particular purposes) and similar items, with the earliest example from 1612. Letters Patent (meaning I.1 under "patent") An open letter or document, usually from a sovereign or person in authority, issued for various purposes, e.g., to put on record some agreement or contract, to authorize or command something to be done, to confer some right, privilege, title, property, or office... [examples from 1292 onwards]. Capitulary (meaning 2) A collection of ordinances (in mod. L. called _capitula_), especially those made on their own authority by the Frankish Kings. [examples of this and the variant form "capitular" all date from after 1600; as a *Latin* term (thus ignored by the OED), I have a reference from the 13th century of "capitularium", meaning the set of regulations of a religious chapter--JdM]. While several of Graydon's examples are perfectly fine alternate terms, there is nothing wrong with "scroll", either (and this is just English -- "escroue" plus spelling variants were the French versions). --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jeremy de Merstone George J Perkins perkins at msupa.pa.msu.edu North Woods, MidRealm East Lansing, MI perkins at msupa (Bitnet) Subject: Scribal arts (was Concep Date: 21 May 92 From: Stephen.Whitis at f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Stephen Whitis) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Arvcal wrote... >The East does not have standard promissaries. We do give out >promissaries from time to time, but they are done as needed by scribes >in service to the Crown, and I must say that they are often pretty >wonderful pieces of work on their own. I know that some kingdoms use >photocopied scroll-blanks as promissaries; I'd be interested to hear how >this varies from kingdom to kingdom. What does your kingdom give out >with an award? I too would be interested in how other kingdoms handle award scrolls. In Ansteorra, at AOA and Grant level, each award has one or more blanks which we call charters. A charter is similar to a coloring book page, being a B&W copy (on nice paper) which has the calligraphy and outlines for the illumination. The spaces where the recipients name, the date, the branch holding the event, and the crown signs are left blank and filled in as needed. These blank charters are distributed amoung the illuminers, who paint them to look like "real" scrolls. (Or a faxcimile thereof! :-)) In addition, and in theory, each person can request a "real" scroll, (Called an achievement) one at each major level. (AOA, Grant, Peerage.) The kingdom scroll person will assign that scroll to one of the advanced calligraphy/illumination persons, who will work with the recipient to come up with a scroll they will like, and this scribe will then make the scroll. The achievement will have their arms (if registered) and some reference to all the awards that person has received so far. (I'm not sure if they will assign achievements for someone who does not have registered arms, or if they do, how it is handled.) In practice, there is no backlog on the charters. (Though they usually are running close to empty.) But very few of the achievements are done. In fact, most people never make a request for an achievement. (IMO, because they don't expect to ever see it.) The few achievements that *do* get completed are usually from a situation where person A wants a scroll, and is a friend of person B, a scribe. They tell the kingdom person they are doing it, and do it. I could of course give my opinions about changes that I think should be made in our system, but I think I'll pass for now. Stephen Whitis/Stephen of the Grove Steppes/Ansteorra FIDO 1:124/4229 Date: 22 May 92 From: branwen at cerebus.ccc.amdahl.com (Karen Williams) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA OK, so SCA award scrolls aren't period, and everyone assumes that calligraphy and illumination are free. What sorts of c&i would be valued (enough to sell) by the population, and be period? How about: a period recipe? a love poem? a war poem? an indulgence from the church? Do you think someone of Viking persuasion would love to own a copy of a saga (or part of one) done in the appropriate hand and with the appropriate illumination? Wouldn't a thirteenth-century recipe look great framed on your kitchen wall? (Eric Foxworthy wrote out "Louie, Louie" in Elvish, with illumination including gold leaf, and sold color photocopies at a con. They went quickly.) One of my upcoming projects is a bestiary (which I'm making for myself, wonder of wonders). I'd like to do a Book of Hours for myself, too, someday. Ah, and a carpet page. I'd love a carpet page. Anybody have any other ideas of valuable, period calligraphy and illumination? Branwen ferch Emrys The Mists, the West -- Karen Williams branwen at cerebus.ras.amdahl.com Awards & scrolls 25 May 92 From: Tim at f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Fra Tadhg Liath unto Master Arval Benicoeur and all others unto whom these presents shall have come giveth greeting: JM> Graydon, you made one side point that caught my eye: JM> > First off, the whole SCA concept of 'scroll' is a modern construction. JM> > I have only encountered such words as 'writ' and 'charter' and 'letters JM> > close' and 'letters patent' and 'capitulary' in reference to medieval JM> > legal documents. So the name is invented. JM> Excellent point; let us dedicate ourselves to stamping out that word, and JM> adopting the more authentic terms. Can anyone give us precise definitions JM> of these terms and others related? Certainly. While I was one of the Shield Heralds of the Middle Kingdom ten years ago (and mundanely a law student) I did a report for Mistress Graidhne, then Dragon Principal Herald, on that very subject. The *carta* or charter was the most formal and solemn document produced by governments during the Middle Ages. They were invariably used for grants of rights "in perpetuity", such as lands, hereditable honors and franchises, and Papal privileges (called "bulls" from the lead *bulla* or seal). Charters were also used for solemn confirmations of prior grants (in England referred to as an "Inspeximus" from the initial word of the dispositive clause). Charters were discontinued in England in 1516 after a period of decline, their function being increasingly taken over by letters patent. *Litterae patentes* or "letters patent" were so called because they were open (or "patent") for all to read, as distinct from "letters close" (*litterae clausae), which were sealed closed so that only the recipient would read them (since the seal had to be broken to get at the text). Letters patent differed from charters in the form of address, the manner of sealing, the formula of the Injunction, and the manner of attestation. "Writ" is the English translation of the Latin term "breve", more literally "brief" (surviving in Scots law as "brieve"). It refers to an official letter of instruction from an office of government to a particular person, typically a government official, to take some action. It survives as such primarily in the legal system, in the form of an instruction from a court. Commonly encountered writs in the English-speaking world are the writ of Habeas Corpus, requiring that someone be either brought to trial or released; the writ of mandamus, through which a higher court modifies the actions of a lower; and the writ of summons to parliament, which in England is used to initiate elections and assemble the peers for a parliamentary session. The traditional "forms of action" of English Common Law depended upon the "original writs" from the King's Chancery that were avalailable to any subject for the initiation of legal actions in the King's Courts. A "capitulary" is an abbreviated record of legal documents relating to a certain subject, so called from the fact that it was arranged by "headings" or "chapters". The term generally refers to compilations of ordinances issued by the Frankish kings during the early parts of our Period. To Haj Hossein's excellent bibliography recently posted I should like to add some other titles that people working with medieval diplomata, especially those just starting out, might find useful: = The standard law dictionaries: Black's for the U.S. and Jowett's for Britain. One can often plainly see the skeleton of medieval practice underlying the structure of modern legal uses of certain terms. = Hubert Hall, *Studies in English Historical Documents* (1908) and its companion the two-volume *Formula Book of English Historical Documents* (1908). The latter was reprinted in 1969; I can't seem to find my set, otherwise I'd post details. = Pierre Chaplais, *English Royal Documents King John - Henry VI 1199-1461* (1971) is, I think, the best starting place for an SCA researcher without prior exposure. = Arthur Giry, *Manuel de Diplomatique* (1925), especially nice for its coverage of seals and sealing methods. = Cesare Paoli, *Diplomatica* (1942), deals extensively with Italy and especially the Papal chancery, which was the model for all medieval chanceries. = Harry Breslau, *Handbuch der Urkundenlehre fuer Deutschland und Italien* (1889), which I believe was reprinted in 1958. = Ludwig Rockinger, *Ueber Formelbuecher vom XII biz zum XVI Jahrhunderts als rechtsgeschichliche Quellen* (1855) and *Ueber Briefsteller und Formelbuecher in Deutschland waehrend des Mittelalter* (1861) deal with the formula books that medieval chanceries themselves used in the preparation of documents. Further more detailed information may be had from my article "Medieval Official Document Forms" in the Proceedings of the Known World Heraldic Symposium (Ansteorra 1990), which is still available if I'm not mistaken. Tadhg, Hanaper * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229) From: Jeff Lee <jlee at smylex.UUCP> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: scrolls..... Date: Mon, 5 Jul 93 11:08:08 EDT Organization: Wyvernwood, Trimaris (Tampa, FL) Greetings from Godfrey! Nicolaa de Bracton of Leicester writes: > I DREAM of having a correctl-done charter-type scroll, > in scrawly thirteenth-century notary hand, with absolutely no illumination > or decoration save a pendant wax seal. Period legal documents were not necessarily text-only. The East Kingdom standards manual shows a few examples of period legal documents: o A grant of arms to the Worshipful Company of Tallow Chandlers, England 1456. Very large illuminated capital, with a fairly wide illuminated border (including the arms) down the left side. o Arms scroll, Sigismund of Germany, 1460. Mostly text, with decoration around the escutcheon. o Diploma, Jean of France, 1400's. Large historiated initial. o Petition by the Fugger family of Augsburg to Pope Alexander VI ca. 1500. Large illuminated capital, elaborate border (including several escutcheons) on the top and both sides. o Scroll of Emperor Frederick II of Germany, 1270. Very large illuminated capital, a lot of text, and a large seal. o Scroll of Emperor Alexins III Ceanenus, Constantinople, 1200's. The text is dwarfed by the painting of one haloed and crowned figure handing a scroll to another haloed figure. Although the depictions in the standards manual are simple line-drawing representations of the originals, some of them appear to be at least as elaborate as most of the `book-of-hours scrolls' that Tadhg denigrates with such enthusiastic bombast. (No, I'm not defending the fact that many of our scrolls are inauthentic. Then again, neither are most of our awards!) > One real problem with the "surprise" factor is that award recipients > are never given a chance to perhaps comission a scroll from a talented friend > who really knows their tastes. When I lived in the East Kingdom, the Tyger Clerk (who gave scroll assignments to the scribes) attempted to assign scrolls to scribes who lived in the same area as the recipient, if possible; scribes could also request assignments (for example, `If XXX gets an award, I'd like to do the scroll'). One thing that I was taught was that, if I was assigned a scroll for someone I didn't know, it was best to call the seneschal of that person's home group and find out some things about the person (when and where their persona was from, what colors they liked, &cetera). That makes for a much more personal scroll. > Ah, well, I should talk. None of my scrolls are colour xerox > copies with the name written in...... And with any luck, neither will anyone in Trimaris ever receive such scrolls again! *sigh* This is all personal opinion, and should not be construed as an official statement from the Office of the Trimaris Chart Herald, the Kingdom of Trimaris, or the Society for Creative Anachronism, Incorporated. ===== Jeff Lee / jlee at smylex.uucp / jlee%smylex.uucp at tscs.tscs.com ===== ===== SCA: Lord Godfrey de Shipbrook, Trimaris Chart Herald ===== ===== Per pale azure and argent, a clarion counterchanged or and gules ===== From: greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: scrolls..... Date: 6 Jul 1993 01:26:00 -0400 Organization: MIT LCS guest machine Lord Godfrey writes: >Period legal documents were not necessarily text-only. The East Kingdom >standards manual shows a few examples of period legal documents: > > o A grant of arms to the Worshipful Company of Tallow > Chandlers, England 1456. Very large illuminated capital, > with a fairly wide illuminated border (including the arms) > down the left side. Commissioned by the Company from a private artist and not produced in a chancery. > o Arms scroll, Sigismund of Germany, 1460. Mostly text, with > decoration around the escutcheon. This is an artist achievement, not a chancery document. > o Diploma, Jean of France, 1400's. Large historiated initial. No one ever said that you don't occasionally see an elaborated initial in some chancery documents. However, it is almost never of the sort one associates with book hands and it is _only_ the initial. Occasionally one sees enlarged, but not elaborated letters in the first line of a charter, usually in the second half of a chirograph -- with the cut through the enlarged letters. > o Petition by the Fugger family of Augsburg to Pope Alexander > VI ca. 1500. Large illuminated capital, elaborate border > (including several escutcheons) on the top and both sides. Again, not a chancery document. > o Scroll of Emperor Frederick II of Germany, 1270. Very large > illuminated capital, a lot of text, and a large seal. An outlier par excellence -- look at Bresslau's _Handbuch der Urkundenlehre fuer Deutschland und Italien_ to see the central tendency of HR Imperial diplomatics. > o Scroll of Emperor Alexins III Ceanenus, Constantinople, 1200's. > The text is dwarfed by the painting of one haloed and crowned > figure handing a scroll to another haloed figure. Maybe the document exists, I don't know. I do know that there was never a Byzantine emperor by that name. It's either Alexius II Comnenus (1167-1883) or Alexius III Angelus (1195-1203), but it isn't Alexins III Ceanenus. What "kind" of a scroll -- a diploma, a charter, what? Was it chancery-produced or monastic? >Although the depictions in the standards manual are simple line-drawing >representations of the originals, some of them appear to be at least as >elaborate as most of the `book-of-hours scrolls' that Tadhg denigrates >with such enthusiastic bombast. I just posted an introductory bibliography of sources in diplomatics and facsimiles of notarial/secretarial-hand documents. Tadhg has also posted references to such sources (although not that recently). It really chaps me to have some half-assed SCA publication quoted as evidence that Tadhg is wrong. Remember the biblical passage about the blind leading the blind and both falling into the ditch? It characterizes a large percentage of the "information" in SCA publications, particularly things like the manual you cite. Read Koch's book on the Holy Roman Imperial chancery in the 12th and 13th centuries and tell me that the East Kingdom standards manual knows more about the palaeography and diplomatics of HRE documents. Read Giry or De Bouard and tell me that that manual knows more about French chancery practices. The ability to cite outliers tells you nothing about the central tendency. By the logic of "it happened once somewhere in the middle ages, it must be period" the marginal note I once saw in a bible from the Abbey of Lorsch ("Abbas cum Hlothario nefas fecit") implies that every bible produced in every scriptorium in Europe had some scribe's accusation of the abbot's sodomy scrawled in the margin. There's a rules-lawyerly fascination with the oddity which permeates the SCA's approach to the middle ages and documentation which I find unfathomable. >(No, I'm not defending the fact that many of our scrolls are inauthentic. >Then again, neither are most of our awards!) The less genteel version of this attitude is: we do some things in a half-assed way, therefore we should allow everything to be done in a half-assed way. I don't buy it. Hossein/Greg Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: nusbache at epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher) Subject: Re: scrolls..... Organization: University of Toronto - Semi-Employed Alumni Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1993 12:11:07 GMT Remember, Greg, that the East Kingdom standards manual was not designed to give a good, general representation of chancery documents of the Middle Ages. It started from the position of an existing style, the SCA scroll, and worked backwards to include the appropriate mediaeval documents. Note the preponderance of commercial documents amongst the works cited. Robert S. Lopez would be pleased to see expensive illumination being paid for by the Fuggers and the Tallow Chandlers instead of by noblemen. Proof that money caused Protestantism... Aryk Nusbacher Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Arval d'Espas Nord) Subject: Re: scrolls..... Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1993 19:45:59 GMT Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Greetings from Arval! Hossein made two comments in his reply to Godfrey that brought question to my mind: > >Period legal documents were not necessarily text-only. The East Kingdom > >standards manual shows a few examples of period legal documents: > > > > o A grant of arms to the Worshipful Company of Tallow > > Chandlers, England 1456. Very large illuminated capital, > > with a fairly wide illuminated border (including the arms) > > down the left side. > > Commissioned by the Company from a private artist and not produced in a > chancery. Why should we take chancery documents, as opposed to private documents, as the models for our scrolls? > The ability to cite outliers tells you nothing about the central tendency. > By the logic of "it happened once somewhere in the middle ages, it must be > period" the marginal note I once saw in a bible from the Abbey of Lorsch > ("Abbas cum Hlothario nefas fecit") implies that every bible produced in > every scriptorium in Europe had some scribe's accusation of the abbot's > sodomy scrawled in the margin. Come on Hossein, you know that doesn't hold water: There is a difference between saying "We can take this evidence as the basis for a re-creation" and "Everything we re-create must follow this model." > There's a rules-lawyerly fascination with the oddity which permeates the > SCA's approach to the middle ages and documentation which I find > unfathomable. Your comments suggest that you believe (like Tadhg) that SCAfolk ought to base their re-creative efforts on the norms of the cultures we are studying. Do you believe that? If so, why? What is wrong with re-creating oddities? That approach clearly will not provide a correct picture of the culture as a whole, but it will still provide a correct picture of some aspect of that culture. =========================================================================== Arval d'Espas Nord mittle at watson.ibm.com From: jtn at nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: scrolls..... Date: 6 Jul 93 22:47:22 GMT Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn. Arval posted recently on scrolls, asking Hossein several questions. Now, I don't talk for Hossein (he and I do not always agree, and lord knows, he talks well enough for himself). But I have a few responses of my own.... Arval asks, >Why should we take chancery documents, as opposed to private documents, as >the models for our scrolls? Because the crowns sign them. Because the office that prepares them is appointed by the crown and organized as a kingdom office. Because in some kingdomes, the herald's office signs them before they go out as witness that they are official. All of these are appropriate _only_ if the documents issue from a chancery. If they are private documents, the signatures and seals are out of place, and the heralds do not have even the dimmest and most distant claim to any interest in them whatsoever. And they are private business between a recipient and an artisan, and no Clerk of the Signet (or your kingdom's name for it) has any business with it. Either they come from the Kingdom or they don't. If they do, the appropriate model is documents that came from Crowns in period. If they don't, then none of this bureaucracy has any business mucking around in them. Arval also remarks on Hossein's objection to using outliers as models: >> The ability to cite outliers tells you nothing about the central tendency. >> By the logic of "it happened once somewhere in the middle ages, it must be >> period" the marginal note I once saw in a bible from the Abbey of Lorsch >> ("Abbas cum Hlothario nefas fecit") implies that every bible produced in >> every scriptorium in Europe had some scribe's accusation of the abbot's >> sodomy scrawled in the margin. > >Come on Hossein, you know that doesn't hold water: There is a difference >between saying "We can take this evidence as the basis for a re-creation" >and "Everything we re-create must follow this model." But every model cited in that book is an outlier. _Only_ outliers are being provided as models. What message does that send? >> There's a rules-lawyerly fascination with the oddity which permeates the >> SCA's approach to the middle ages and documentation which I find >> unfathomable. > >Your comments suggest that you believe (like Tadhg) that SCAfolk ought to >base their re-creative efforts on the norms of the cultures we are >studying. Do you believe that? If so, why? What is wrong with >re-creating oddities? That approach clearly will not provide a correct >picture of the culture as a whole, but it will still provide a correct >picture of some aspect of that culture. Not if the oddity is presented _other_ than as an oddity. It is an accurate depiction of current US trends if you show a lot of kids, one or two wearing Mohawks, and those treated as outliers. It is a radically incorrect picture of _any_ aspect of our culture -- including those who chose that style -- to portray it as the central tendency. If it were the central tendency, they'd be wearing something else. That's the point; missing that is missing the point. Also, if all you portray is the outliers, you not only misrepresent them, you miseducate people who are picking up their sense of what is medieval from what we reproduce. A huge proportion of the people who come into the SCA develop their sense of what is, for instance, Norman garb by what people who call their garb "Norman" wear. If what they're wearing has as little to do with Norman garb as, say, Madonna's more far-out get-ups have to do with current street wear, what we are doing is not only not educational, it's counter-educational. That, I think, is a trend worth avoiding. We may grant that there's a limit to what good we can do. Still, we should try to avoid doing harm. Cheers, -- Angharad/Terry Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Arval d'Espas Nord) Subject: Re: scrolls..... Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1993 20:33:43 GMT Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Greetings from Arval! My thanks to Hossein, Angharad, and Godfrey for their thoughts in this thread. If I may summarize, we have seen the following facts: 1) The overwhelming majority of medieval charters are not decorated in the manner of our award scrolls, the design of which is more closely based on book pages. 2) In particular, chancery documents were rarely decorated in this manner. 3) Nevertheless, there are some charters which were decorated in this manner. They are clearly not representative of the central tendency of medieval diplomata (to use Hossein's words), but they did exist. I think everyone in this conversation understands these facts, but they are drawing very different conclusions depending, I believe, on what they are interested in re-creating. Hossein and Angharad focus on organizational aspects of SCA scrolls: Scrolls are documents issued by the Crown and produced by its officers, and therefore should re-create medieval chancery documents. Chancery documents, in general, were not decorated like book pages; therefore our official scrolls should generally not be so decorated. Angharad objected to the use of exceptional examples as the models for our scrolls: > _Only_ outliers are being provided as models. What message does that > send? ...the oddity is presented _other_ than as an oddity. Similarly, Hossein asked: > What does the existence of outliers prove about the central tendency of > medieval diplomata? The key point in understanding their position is that they feel that SCA institutions should be based on the common practices of medieval Europe, not on exceptional cases. In effect, they want the institution itself (or perhaps all scrolls considered together) to be a good re-creation. Godfrey, on the other hand, appears to focus on a much finer scale. (I'm drawing conclusions only from your position in this discussion, Godfrey, and no doubt exaggerating it for my own rhetorical purposes. Please allow me that liberty.) He finds sufficient satisfaction in the fact that each scroll, viewed in isolation, is a good re-creation of _some_ period model. The fact that the model on which it is based is an oddity doesn't bother him. The institution doesn't concern him over much; the individual re-creative efforts are the key to his enjoyment of the SCA. He wrote: > I shall also stipulate that they were the exception rather than the rule. > Nevertheless, they DO exist, which was the entire point of my original > post. There is a third view which has not been represented in this discussion, which focusses at yet a finer level detail. There may be artisans in the Society who consider it most important to re-create elements of a work, without particular interest in the cumulative effect. They are perfectly happy knowing that the script used on a scroll is an accurate re-creation of a medieval hand and that the illumination is an accurate re-creation of some form of medieval illumination; the fact that these two elements could never have been combined in any medieval document bothers them not a whit. It is important to realize that Hossein and Anghard on one hand, Godfrey on the other hand, and my postulated scribes on Cariadoc's third hand, are not re-creating the same things. They are re-creating in the same medium but their aims are quite different, so it should come as no surprise at all that their priorities clash or that their products are incompatible with other goals. An obvious analogue can be found in many of the arguments that Tadhg and I have had over the heraldic rules for submissions: Our goals are quite different even though we are working in the same domain, so it is not the least surprising that we come into conflict over the rules governing our craft. I think it is also important to realize that Godfrey's approach is the predominant one in the Society today. Very few of us try very hard to make our institutions re-creative activities in themselves. Most of us are happy focussing on individual works of re-creation. That's also not surprising: To make a single artifact a good re-creation, you don't need to convince anyone that it is worthwhile. To make an institution be a good re-creation, you have to convince everyone working in that domain to agree on the same goal. That is an unlikely event. The scribal arts are one of the most active areas of craftwork in the Society for several reasons. First, our award system creates an essentially unlimited demand for their product. A product in demand increases in value; in our case, the value is embodied as esteem and attractiveness of the craft. Second, the award system makes scribal craftwork highly visible. Some people grouse that scrolls are displayed once and then disappear forever, but scribal arts is the only craft of which the product is regularly displayed in court. Visibility creates further esteem, attracting more people to the craft. Third, scribal work is a craft which is easy & flexible to practice, but which offers plenty of room for developing expertise. It doesn't require a group of people working together (though it can be so practiced). It doesn't require a major investment to get started (though such an investment can be helpful). It is familiar in the real world and many people bring basic skills with them into the Society, but there is enormous range for research and learning. Fourth, the scroll itself is a relatively small, self-contained project. A scribe can go through a dozen scrolls in a year; each one is a fin