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SCA-gays-msg - 2/15/10


Acceptance of Gays and Lesbians in the SCA. Experiences of gay and lesbian folks in the SCA.


NOTE: See also the files: Blue-Feather-msg, SCA-minorties-msg, SCA-as-family-msg, SCA-reasons-msg, SCA-The-Dream-msg, magic-moments-msg, p-sex-msg.





This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.


This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org


I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.


The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.


Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).


Thank you,

    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                          Stefan at florilegium.org



From: ianengle at freenet.columbus.oh.us (Ian Engle)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: SCA meets "Stonewall"??

Date: 6 Sep 1996 00:05:16 -0400

Organization: The Greater Columbus FreeNet


JeremyBear (jeremybear at aol.com) wrote:

: My question:  Is there an honored and viable place within SCA circles for

: openly gay men and lesbians who are in relationship and involved in SCA

: activities as a couple??


: The Rev. Jeremy Edward McLeod

: JeremyBear at AOL.com or

: jemcleod at ecentral.com


        I'm sorry you have not seen the Society as I've seen them in this

regard.  I would tell you that here abouts (Midrealm-Ohio, Indiana,

Kentucky) my love, Master Dougal, and I were readily accepted and honourably

treated by almost everybody we met or dealt with in the Society (But hell,

he had that loveable nature...)


                                        --Master Sion Andreas



From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: SCA meets "Stonewall"??

Date: 6 Sep 1996 05:52:38 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley


Well, I can't exactly speak to the "as a couple" experience (pout), but I

have never seen any evidence that my being a lesbian has been a problem

for me or anyone else in any of my SCA activities.  (But then, I live in

Berkeley -- YMMV.)


Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn



From: smills at wichita.fn.net (put your name here)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: SCA meets "Stonewall"??

Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 21:00:28 -400

Organization: Feist Connections


Dear Jeremy-We know several openly gay couples in SCA and enjoy their

company very much.In answer to your question I would say yes,but you know that

attitudes change from place to place. Come play with us in Calontir. We would

love to have you.


Lady Clare



From: tmcd at crl.com (Timothy A. McDaniel)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: SCA meets "Stonewall"??

Date: 6 Sep 1996 22:07:44 -0500

Organization: CRL Network Services      (415) 705-6060  [Login: guest]


In article <50ngge$28o at newsbf02.news.aol.com>,

JeremyBear <jeremybear at aol.com> wrote:

>except for

>the homophobia I see expressed and acted out frequently.  Perhaps the

>"Current Middle Ages" are no more or less homophobic than the current age.


>My question:  Is there an honored and viable place within SCA circles for

>openly gay men and lesbians who are in relationship and involved in SCA

>activities as a couple??


Surely!  Until March, I lived in the Barony of the Steppes (Dallas,

Texas).  The Baron of the Steppes, Edwin Fitz Lloyd, lives with his

lover, Paul Roelant.  When Paul got a major award (court barony), it

was one of the most applauded awards I'd ever heard there.  The

Honorable Lord Aethelstan of Staffordshire (now departed, alas) was

rather popular.  I daresay I had my own popularity there, though I say

it who shouldn't.


I don't think the insistance that couples in a landed nobility post

need to be of the opposite sex is really homophobia. ... but I can't

expand on my points, as I must deal with backups now.


Daniel de Lincoln

                             Tim McDaniel

                        Reply-To: tmcd at crl.com

                     (Work is mcdaniel at cpm.com.)

              Never use mcdaniel at mcdaniel.dallas.tx.us.



From: LFWolffe at aol.com (Linda Wolffe)

Date: 09 Sep 96 07:13:03

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: SCA meets "Stonewall"??


     I live in mid-southern An Tir (Portland, OR) and my wife and I have

no problems at all at events. (She's a pre-op M to F TS.) We hold hands in

Merchant's Row; we refer to each other as "my wife." No problems.

     We have also tried to find Clan Bluefeather, and have given people our

address for that group; and the blue feather, at least in this neck of the

woods, has become a symbol of recognition for the gay/lesbian/bi/TS

community in the SCA. There was even a Bluefeather tea at the 30-year

celebration. (We didn't make it; my Lady was playing Tablero again.)


In Troth,

Runswith of Grithold



From: gunnora at bga.com (Gunnora Hallakarva)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: SCA meets "Stonewall"??

Date: 9 Sep 1996 22:11:05 GMT

Organization: Real/Time Communications Internet customer posting


Greetings, good Jeremy.


        The SCA as a whole is MUCH more tolerant of all sorts of things than the

general public.  Since the general public regards adults who play dress up as slightly wierd or completely cuckoo, we are all to some degree "unusual."


        I personally have never encountered homophobia in the SCA.  I have been in 18 years.  I came out to the SCA almost 10 years ago.  The general response was either, "Great!  I'm so glad you're happy."  or "So?  We've known about THAT for ages!"  Both I and my lady are welcomed everywhere and by all ranks within the Society.


        I am far from the only member of the kingdom to be "family" either.  We

number a territorial baron:  Master Edwin FitzLloyd is Baron of the Steppes.  He and his consort Paul are to be found seated side-by-side at banquets, presiding with dignity and enviable grace. The Order of the Laurel here is "rife" with "our sort" as well:  Aside from Baron Edwin and myself, there are Master Colin, Mistresses Mara and Muriel (a couple), and Mistress Branwyn, and I cannot say how many we might have that are "bi".  And there look to be others among us soon. I can think of at least three gay candidates (apprentice or not) for the Laurel, and one lesbian.  I do not know the affectional preferences of our other peerage circles, although I can say we have at least one bi-sexual member of the Chivalry.  


        I can say that none of the homosexual members of the SCA here are "in

your face" queers within the SCA environment.  We don't hide it, but neither are we fornicating in the list field.  My lady and I walk arm in arm, and flirt and joke with one another.  I think we show about as much PDA as the average heterosexual couple.


        The SCA should be a welcoming environment for all.  We are not here to be divisive, or racist, or sexist, or what have you.  We are here to have a good time and perhaps to learn something.  For me, when people ask me to tell them about myself, I don't say "I'm a lesbian."  The first self-description out of my mouth is always, "I'm a medievalist involved in the SCA."  I feel that there is no room in the SCA for homophobia, and happily, I found none thus far.  






From: wwwaft at access2.digex.net (Dexter Guptill)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: SCA meets "Stonewall"??

Date: 9 Sep 1996 18:56:39 -0400

Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA


In Atlantia, we have Masters Daniel and James of Rutland, who are both

highly-regarded Laurels. James is a bard, and is of course highly popular.

Daniel is an artist. A brief digression here: One of the peer-making

ceremonies in Atlantia involves a member of each of the Chivalry, Laurel,

Pelican, and Rose coming into court to speak for the candidate. AFAIK,

_all_4_ had members vying for the privilege of speaking for Daniel. We

have other like couples in the kingdom -- Jim & Dan happen to be the one I

know the best.


*** Dexter C. Guptill, Computer Services, American Fed of Teachers

*** Member, 49th VA Vol Inf CSA (N-SSA) & Hampden's Regiment of Foote (ECW)

*** AKA Ld. Erich von Kleinfeld, Stierbach, Atlantia (SCA)



Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 20:42:50 -0800

From: njones at ix.netcom.com (Nathan Jones)

Subject: Re: Reply re: Your Blue Feather Concerns

To: ansteorra at eden.com


Greetings friends,


A small taste of what it's like to be gay in the Current Middle Ages:




A male fighter gets off the field and he notices a beautiful woman who has been

watching the list.  She notices him notice her and gives him an encougageing

smile.  Later that day, he chances by, clean, sweet smelling and in his best

tunic.  They spend the afternoon engaged in conversation.  Night falls and the

feasting and revelry begin.  He gets bold and, during feast, sings a love song

and bashfully dedicates it to her.  During feast, they sit next to each other,

holding hands and occasionally feeding each other bits of food.  After feast,

they dance the night away.  All are charmed by their behavior.



Now envision what that day would be like with a lesbian/gay theme.


A male fighter gets off the field and he notices a handsome man who has been

watching the list.  He sees that said handsome man happens to be wearing a blue

feather pinned to his doublet with a red ribbon pin.  Handsome man notices

fighter notice him and gives a vague, noncommital smile in return.  Later that

day, the figher chances by, clean, sweet smelling and in his best tunic, with a

blue feather pinned to it.  They spend the afternoon engaged in conversation.  

Night falls and the revelry begins.  The fighter gets bold and, during feast,

sings a love song, glancing at his new friend to let him know who the song is

for.  During feast they sit next to each other and, cautiously, clasp hands under the table, being careful not to attract attention.  After feast, they watch the dancing, or perhaps dance with female friends of theirs, wishing they could dance with each other.  They retire to their camp for privacy so that they can speak frankly to each other without having to wonder who might be listening.




The second scenario is a fantasy.  I have been in the SCA for five years and have met one (1) other eligible gay man at an event and he wasn't my type!  *sigh*  

Now, I've met lots of gay/lesbian/bi people, but the dating prospects are kinda

slim.  *grin*  While I don't think we need a formal guild for Bluefeather in

Ansteorra, I like the fact that it exists.  I love the fact that there is the

Blue Ball at Pennzic.  I think it would be neat to have something similar at Gulf War.  My hope is to eventually find a partner/lover/husband who is in the SCA or is SCA-compatible.  So I'm in favor of any chance to get together and socialize in a comfortable setting with other gay/lesbian/bi SCA folk.  All this I say as the mundane, Nathan.  Gio is currently looking to get married to a nice

Florentine woman of a good family!


My being gay has absolutely nothing to do with how I play the SCA, but it affects me every day of my life.  And that, BTW, has nothing to do with what I do in the bedroom, which is none of your business. *grin*



currently living in a teeny, tiny town near Northkeep.



Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 01:18:06 -0800

From: "Frederick J. Hollander" <flieg at berkeley.edu>

Subject: Re: [Lochac] Can of same-sex worms Re: urban legends

To: The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list <lochac at lochac.sca.org>


Flieg here --


  I suppose I'm interfering again, but while the argument that may be

"usually given" is that it is ahistorical, in my opinion the true reason

is that it is against the romantic tropes.  It is part of the "supposed

to be"s that the King and Queen are a King and Queen not a King and

"Queen". I think it important to note that sexual involvement has for a

long time NOT been the case, starting with Asbjorn and Brekka in the

East Kingdom and continuing to the present day.  I also reject the

argument that it is based in homophobia, given the social orientation of

the early participants.  (One prominent Lord announced at a meeting in

the late sixties. "Guys, I have an important announcement to make: I'm

gay." "That's nice, Jerry, but what's your important announcement?"

Seriously, I was there.) I'm not saying there isn't homophobia in the

SCA (we are a part and parcel of our cultures), but it isn't the basis

for the ruling.


I note that all the examples so far adduced of non-couples were:

brothers, (one set of sisters) and mother-son regencies (which really

don't match the question since a regency is not the same as co-rule).


Given the romantic ideal nature of our crown tournaments, brotherly

co-rule is not going to be on the docket.


  -- Flieg


Paul Sleigh wrote:

<<< Absolutely.  The argument usually given for banning same-sex couples is

that it's ahistorical.  Obviously it's not, and very likely the real

reason for the ban is plain homophobia.  But we're ruled from a nation

of religious nuts (even if our membership are nowhere near as religious

as the average) so there's not much chance of a change.  Hey ho.


(And if the homophobia argument seems implausible, consider how many

black people ruled as king or queen anywhere in Europe.  Now check

Corpora to see where it says that people of African ancestry are not

allowed to enter Crown tourneys.)


: Bat : >>>


&   &   &     Frederick of Holland, MSCA, OL, OP. etc.

++ +++ ++     Flieg Hollander, flieg at berkeley.edu

=========     http://xray.cchem.berkeley.edu/flieg2/wkwc

-- A crank ------- Old Used Duke  ------- not a tool ---


<the end>

Formatting copyright © Mark S. Harris (THLord Stefan li Rous).
All other copyrights are property of the original article and message authors.

Comments to the Editor: stefan at florilegium.org