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crown-cost-msg - 6/30/07


The monetary and other costs of being King and Queen in the SCA.


NOTE: See also the files: SCA-royalty-msg, coronets-msg, largess-ideas-msg, households-msg, travel-funds-msg, Feudalism-art, SCA-coro-oths-msg, SCAguests-msg, Largesse-art.





This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.


This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org


I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.


The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.


Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).


Thank you,

    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                          Stefan at florilegium.org



Re: Crown Tourney

Date: 13 Feb 92

From: lindal at killer.asd.sgi.com (Linda Levy)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Organization: sgi


Speaking as someone who just returned to normal (or what passes as normal) after serving the West as queen, I wish there was some way to show the cost of winning, not just entering.


The West does not have any unusal requirement (see Letter from John S. on this topic)  However.... being Royalty cost us:  

1- the Kings employment,

2-3000.00 dollars each,

3- several friendships which had to be set aside if they weren't SCA

4- lack of sleep, lack of food, lack of time,

5- things that we can never regain:   Political innocence, respect for ALL peers, the desire to ever do it again (which, I am told will fade)


However we gained :

An infinite number of new friends all over the world, a certain degree of self confidence and a couple of new costumes, not to mention all the wonderful gifts we got just for being in the right place at the right time.


so was it worth it?  time will tell.


Countess Linda - WEST



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: lindal at goddess.mfg.sgi.com (Linda Levy)

Subject: Re: subsidy for the Crown

Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 19:22:13 GMT




meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org (meg) writes:

|> And now for something completely different.  Should Baronies (and/or

|> other local groups) underwrite the expenses of the Crown? Phone calls,

|> postage, fabric/garb, travelling expenses, hotels, etc. add up to the

|> point where only a mundane elite can seriously consider being able to

|> afford to reign, especially in a large kingdom.  Are we limiting the pool

|> of good and capable rulers by making the privilege accessable only to

|> those who can afford $2000--$8000?  Not to mention the time factor...


|> lets have some figures. I know there are RoyalPeers out there? How much

|> |> did your reign(s) cost in time and money?  Did you have a good supporting

|> household?  Did you pay out of your own pocket or did local groups help?

|> |> If money were not a factor, would you enter Crown Tourney again? (I can

|> hear it now "no, money's not the factor, its my knees. We're gettin'old)

|> |> > ==

|> In the Current Middle Ages: Megan ni Laine de Belle Rive  

|> In 1994: Linda Anfuso


|> meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org


My reign was in the West- so it was only 4 months long (plus the 2 months

as crown princess).

when we were first discussing the concept, I checked my budget and

estimated that I COULD spend about $1000.00 for the whole thing. Phillip

thought he could afford about $2000.00.  we blew that away in the first month.


phone bills (two residences) $200.00 each per month = $2400.00(low est.)

costumes 2 each =$600

materials for favors/gifts = $500.00

postage = $200.00

gas & local events= $ 500.00

queens cyphers  $200.00 (brass)

coronets $500.00 (silver)

trip to Lochac (two weeks) & oertha (week-end)

we paid 1/3, the kingdom paid 1/3, and the principalities paid 1/3

total for us appox $1000

office supplies $100.00

sooo..... total for two -  approx $6000.00


and we tried to budget!!! obviously, there were frills involved. if we did

it again, some of our expenses would not have to be done again, so we

might get by cheaper. I would be interested to know what others spent and on



We usually got in free to the events and that did help.

We had a large hosehold that helped, and they carried alot of the cost of

food etc. but they had also just helped with another reign, and after we

stepped down, they picked up with the next K & Q (same household). Major

burn-out to the household (two full years of helping with Kingdom or



By the way, Phil was out of work for the last 3 months of the reign. that

REALLY made things interesting, but did give him more time to deal with



I think that the budget is rather personal, but I think people should know

what they might be getting into when they enter the lists.


Linda of the lakelands (west)

lindal at mfg.sgi.com



From: meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org (meg)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: cost of reigns

Date: Wed, 06 Jul 94 01:44:12 EDT

Organization: Stonemarche Network Co-op


una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk) writes:

>      Respected Friend:

>      Two to six thousand? Tennessee is cheaper than I thought... In _1980_

> the King amd Queen of the East spent more than _ten_ thousand- And the price

> of gas alone has risen, and risen, and...

>                                    Honour/Alizaunde


Megan here...

actually, the average Eastern Reign during the past 10 years has cost the

Royal Couple $8000.  The EK Travelling fund took some of the edge off the

winter reigns for travel to our then principality of Drachenwald, and in

the summer for Pennsic expenses, but it still is costly. Major

expense:phone bill, fabric, postage, pphotocopying, gas.


I still favor a law that provides a stipend for such expenses...a budget

could be drawn up, subject to periodic revisions, which allots so much

per item...we should subsidize our Royalty by budgeting it into Royal

Progress events. Pay to see the King!

Megan, decidedly radical today


In 1994: Linda Anfuso       non moritur cujus fama vivat

In the Current Middle Ages: Megan ni Laine de Belle Rive  

In the SCA, Inc: sustaining member # 33644


                                YYY     YYY

meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org      |  YYYYY  |




Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: lindal at goddess.mfg.sgi.com (Linda Levy)

Subject: Re: In-period Royal Travel Expenses.

Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

Date: Mon, 25 Jul 1994 21:33:11 GMT


nsmca at aurora.alaska.edu writes:

> I thought for in-period travelling of the crown, that the local vassals

> were in charge of normal expenses. To include food, lodging, and such of

> the royal guests? I know its not a idea for a poor barony to bear. But

> why does a crown spend some $2k for their time on the throne?


> Same with the Royal Chancery/Exchequer and its duties to the normal

> expenses of the throne while it reigns.


During our reign, we were ALWAYS accomadated by the autocrats and the groups in terms of free feast/event tickets and crash space. Often we would have

people offering to drive us around. The generousity of the populace is a

MAJOR reason that people are able to afford to be royalty at all.


However, there are appearence and official duties that the populace seems

to want from their royalty that do cost extra, and cannot be charged off

to anyone else.


Well, I kept a list of sorts of our expenses during the months up to our

reign, and in the west thats two months prep time. I pretty much gave up

keeping a detailed account by the time we stepped up, but we still have the

bills and credit card slips, so its reasonably easy to account for everything.    


1)We had alot of expenses that could just be called "things we needed

anyway, but suddenly had to afford NOW" such as new boots and a couple of

casual costumes. Plus I never needed a banner until then, so we had to have

one made for coronation & stepping down.


2) Phone bills $200.00 a month per royal if they live seperately (which we

did.) Of course, the West has Alaska and Australia to keep in touch with,

so other Kingdoms might not be as much. (and calling each other was long



3) coronation costumes and stepping down costumes approx 200.00 per costume, for fabric, trim, linings, buttons, thread, facings etc. The labor was donated.


4) Queens guards favors (approx. 24, including champion, advisor, and

captain) fabric, thread, beads & pewter tokens, $150.


5) Queens tea food & lemonade for the populace $ 200.00


6) Queens Ciphers(sp?) 10  at  $10.00 each. labor donated.


7) gasoline for travel. EVERY WEEKEND  $ 25.00 per week


8) Postage stamps $50.00, envelopes & stationary $10.00


9) copying expenses donated (approx. 500 misc letters & notes)


10) faxing expenses donated  (at least one a week)


11) lost wages from days off to pack for events & travel time (once your

vacation time is all used up.)  10 days X 2 people

etc. Your decisions on what you wish to buy are your own, but there is a

minimum amout of service expected of a crown.


Total so far, and I KNOW I've missed obvious stuff = minimum $3710.00

+ lost wages.


then at the end you need coronets $$$


I'm sure that we could have saved money on some things, but it was a first

reign and we were both short on basic SCA court stuff.


Any other ex royals have advice on "how to afford to be "royal""?


linda of the lakelands (west)



From: becks2 at aol.com (Becks2)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: SCA vs GIRLS

Date: 5 Dec 1995 06:53:19 -0500


Terry Aucoin (HDXQ27A at prodigy.com) wrote:

>  I have found that Girls and the SCA doesn't go together! I have lost

> two Girlfriends ...


Just an observation:  The SCA is a relationship accelerater.  Sitting a

throne is even more so.  If a relationship is going to work, it will work

in the SCA.  If it isn't you have the oportunity to find that sooner.

Sitting a throne accelerates even that, it's one of the reasons so many

couples break up on the throne.





From: Bev at orbiter.Com (Bev at orbiter.Com)

Date: 30 Jan 96 19:50:00

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: successful reign

Organization: MAG Systems, Inc/TFP BBS


From: Bev at Orbiter.Com (Bev)


IN>*truly* successful reign also requires:

IN>        1) Their Majesties are still on speaking terms with one another.

IN>If they are a couple, they are still together.

IN>        2) Their Majesties friends/household/squires are still on

IN>speaking terms with the ex-Rexes.

IN>        4) All three (or Four depending on where you are) Peerage orders

IN>are still on speaking terms with Their Majesties.

IN>        5) The various kingdom VIPs are still on speaking terms with

IN>Their Majesties.

IN>        6) The Populace remembers Their Majesties as being unremarkable

IN>at worst and well-loved at best.

IN>        7) Their Majesties aren't in a financial hole and still have

IN>least one servicable automobile left. Their Majesties also get bonus

IN>points if they've been gainfully employed for the entire duration of

IN>their reign and their work hasn't suffered for it.

IN>        8) Everyone concerned would be happy to see Their Majesties

IN>on the thrones again.


That's nice in theory and it is certainly a worthy goal to strive

toward.  However, in reality...it'd leave few "successful" reigns!

(You can please all of the Peers some of the time....etc).


     | Baroness2 Atalaya la Sanadora, OP, OL  Kingdom of Trimaris |

     |  Argent, two horses salient combattant sable, in chief in  |

     |       cross four pheons conjoined at the point gules       |

     |                Internet:  bev at orbiter.com                 |




From: kms3 at ix.netcom.com(Kellene Stets)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: re: Treatment of the Crowns

Date: 25 Nov 1996 21:28:45 GMT


LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.EDU (I. Marc Carlson) writes:

>Why don't more crowns appear to have a "Staff"?  Many of them appear to

>have "Entourage" that seem to help out, but I have yet to see someone

>actually delegated to being "Royal Secretary".


Unfortunately, not all members of the populace will be content with an

answer from a secretary. Moreover, it is the Crown's job to serve the

people, and that means we have to have some form of accessibility.

Folks have to have the opportunity to ask us questions or give us

information. Most Midrealm monarachs do have paperwork staffs. I had

three or four people who helped out with the letters, filing etc during

my reigns. This enabled me to spend the phone time necessary. Yet I

still spent 20 hours per week on administration. The demands of a reign

vary depending on kingdom expectations and on what is going on at the

time. Some things only the Crown can do.





Subject: ANST - Burden of the Crown

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 99 18:32:02 MST

From: "Lorraine and/or Kief" <deer_kief at hotmail.com>

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG, southern at Ansteorra.ORG


A month or so back a gentle issued displeasure

about the way our crowns remain circumspect in

their dealings....


It got me thinking...


Potentially everyone of us has the ability to

be Crown or Consort and even if we don't think

we have that ability we expect certian things

of our Crowns...in my world view we shouldn't

expect things of others that we couldn't or

wouldn't do ourselves so as an exercise: how do

you measure up to your expectation of what we

ask of our Monarchs or question what you think

you would do as Monarch...


Let's assume that the potential Monarchs are

those who are interested in doing whatever

they can discern is needed for Ansteorra...

They want to serve the people and make sure

that those who deserve recognition get it...


To be of the people...you need to travel and

meet people... How many places have you traveled

and how many people do you know there, in how

many regions?...Do you

know enough people that when something goes

haywire in a group, you know people to call on

to get other views than the ones yelling the



Have you read kingdom law?? What about corporate?

or even Marshallate? Are you ready to uphold them?

Do you have enough basis

of knowledge to make a judgement on whether

a group is following guidelines or is really

digging itself deeper.


How much of our history do you know...

what have we gone through in the past,

what issues hit our hot buttons?

What is our glory??


Are you ready to deal with real legal issues

like rape, assault, or theft.


Are you willing to put aside friendships

and household ties in matters where

you would normally be biased? Would you be

able to put aside your dislike and decide

justly on an issue with a long time adversary?


How many people have you recommended for awards?

Do you know your criteria?


Are you ready for a 9 month stint of everyone

in the kingdom wanting your ear, of being in the

spotlight ...and are

you able to generally discern BS from bias, from

concern, from panic, from "truth" (which is always



Are you ready to decide the fate of groups and

individuals within the context of the SCA.


Can you go on smiling for "the people"

when someone you cared deeply about

just betrayed you?


Do you know who your true friends are?


Are you ready for some of the greatest thrills

when you see your people at their finest and

for some of your greatest disappointments

when you see some of the people you

admire the most have feet of clay...


These are things I have asked myself

not because I really think I will

be a monarch, but because I realized

what I expected out of one...


I saw how much friends

of mine who have been monarchs have

gone through....the pain...the joy...

the exhaustion...always trying to

do the best for the kingdom and getting

tired of not being able to please

anyone (or at least it seems that way

caus all ya hear is the bitchin').


I then looked around an realized that on a

less concentrated level, people who stay

with our organization and have value have

also gone through much of this...


just something to think about...


In Service to Ansteorra

Lorraine DeerSlayer



Subject: Re: ANST - need for kings

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 99 08:05:59 JST

From: Trish McCurdy <ladyoftherose at hotmail.com>

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG


km writes:

"but it's the seneshals who do all the work. they sign all the checks. they

answer all the questions. they write all the reports. they are the ones

responsible for everything".....********


ummmmmmmmmmmmm no!  Not in my two reign recollection. I remember long hours

on the road, the phone, reading letters of recommendations, Kingdom Law

changes, voting for territorial representatives ie: Baron and Baroness,

tedious treaty talks with other Kingdoms.


Then the phone bill came, representing those long hours, the gas bill, the

over the counter headache medicine bill (just kidding here, but only on this



A good Seneschal is a great benefit to a Kingdom and a Crown.  But the Crown

is there in the public magnifying glass, trying their darndest to make

everyone happy, recognize the worthy, thank everyone who works, and give

those special moments out frequently to make the dream come alive for an

entire Kingdom, and geepers...they only have 6 months to do it in.


Don't get me wrong, I loved my two reigns.  But don't sell those people who

share 6 months plus TRH time with you.  It is a very hard job, a fun one at

times, but still alot of work.





Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 16:56:34 MST

From: "Michael F. Gunter" <michael.gunter at fnc.fujitsu.com>

Subject: Re: ANST - Questions about Kings & Queens (long-Gunthar talking)

To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG


Hello Amy,

I know this was sent out a while ago and I have seen several comments

on your questions but I would like to add a little bit to the pile as well.


> I'm interested in learning more about the

> "crown".  Please excuse me if I ask silly or difficult questions.


I find no reason for you to apologize for these questions. They are questions

that even those "old-timers" wonder about. I'm still a newbie after being

in only around 16 years. Goodness! Where does the time go? I'm still a

teenager after all!


>      I have a general ideal of what the King/Queen does,


I found your little typo a bit amusing and illuminating. I know you meant to

type "idea" but I think "ideal" it actually a better word. We'll first talk about the meaning of the typo and then discuss what you actually said. The "ideal" Crown is different for every member of the SCA. Some like their Crowns to be aloof and majestic. Full of power and fury. Others like a "Mom and Dad".  Loving of their children and beloved by all. Yet for others the "ideal" Crown is one of them. Laughing and remembering that this is a game after all. For each of

these, if the other is on the throne then that Crown is slightly lacking.


Now as to you having an idea of what the Crown does. It is funny how so many

people who have been in for many years still cannot truly comprehend all that

a Crown does unless they have been Crown or CLOSE entourage. Even after

being a knight for over eight years and close friends of several Crowns I was

unprepared for all that went into being King. I knew that Crowns sat in Court

and gave out awards and recieved loads of goodies from the adoring populace.

I knew they sat and gave judgement in Circle. I knew they went to events

almost every weekend but that was okay because when they got there they

got on site free and got free meals and didn't have to really work, no fighting,

no cleaning up, etc...  They always said how much being Crown sucked but

always wanted to do it again. Okay. So I knew all about being Crown.


And then the King placed the Circlet of the Prince upon my brow. Thus I was

removed from my comfortable womb of non-Royalty and entered into the Real

World of the Crown. As an example. I didn't even have a chance to change out

of my armor before I was sitting in a Pelican meeting. After that I showered,

changed and ate. As soon as I was through with dinner I sat in a Belted Circle

until the arrival of the unknowing Princess. Court was quickly assembled

and she got the surprise of her life. After Court was the continuation of the

Belted Circle (we could see the party our household was having), from the Belted Circle we went to a Great Officers of State meeting which finally concluded around 1:30 in the morning. By the time the new Prince and Princess got back to camp everyone had gone to bed. Welcome to the fun-filled life of Royalty.


Crowns put in a lot of hours in the week dealing with phone calls, award

recommendations, planning for the next event, fixing problems that arise in the Kingdom, washing, unpacking, packing, writing reports and submissions to the newsletter, having people over all the time, etc...


But then they get to go to the event and be King and Queen. In our 6 months as

Crown we got 3 weekends at home. We went from Northkeep to La Marche Sauvage, from Bordermarche to Adlersruhe. Remember that we were in the spotlight not just when we arrived on site but even when home. Frequently, instead of meeting the people of the kingdom as we desired, we had to be sequestered with local personages to attend to problems that only the Crown could fix. We got to sit watch the fighting instead of being out there and having fun too. Often we missed the fighting because members of the populace would approach us to chat. Talking with our populace was a true joy. And definately worth missing a couple of fights.


As Crown I got to sit in a crowded room filled with other high personages and

Decide to cancel Gulf War and tell 4000 people to go home. [Because Gulf Wars got rained out on Friday morning that year - Stefan]. But at that same time I got to see people from all kingdoms helping each other out and having a party to defy the elements. I still get a tear when I remember the ovation the populace gave us in that damp court. That's a tenth of what a Crown does.


> but what are the most difficult things a king/queen has to do?


All of your questions are simple but all have many levels of answers. The most


->Going against a friend's wishes because you feel what you do is right for the


->Going against YOUR wishes because you feel what you do is right for the


->Keeping a smile on your face when everything is crashing down around you.

->Not getting drunk, or having a dalliance with that cute little thing flirting

with you or throwing a tantrum when little things build up because you are the Crown and everything you do is a reflection of your Kingdom.

->Being diplomatic when you really want to tell someone to get stuffed.

->Having huge arguments with your consort on whether or not to give an award.

->Driving, driving, driving.

->Seeing your friends having to setup or break camp and working their tails off

while you sit in meetings and aren't allowed to help them.





Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 11:37:19 -0600

From: "Michael Gunter" <countgunthar at hotmail.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Crown planning

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org


> Well, I think some folks entering Crown ought to think a little bit more

> about what happens if they win it, before they enter. You, at least, have

> the benefit of having been through it once. Some folks  seem to get caught

> up in it and forget that winning can be a life-changing event, in both

> good and bad ways. I've tried to put some of this in this file, although

> it is questionable how many Crown entries have actually read it:


Well, my point was more to the effect of to not "expect" to win either

the selection or Crown. I find nothing more annoying than some fighter

or consort who goes around talking about what they are going to do

when they are Crown.


There are always plans and thoughts but expect to win is foolish unless

you are Superduke X. For me to say I'm going to win this Spring's Crown

cheapens the other fighters who are thinking "Oh no you ain't." It

strikes me as a bit pompous and arrogant.


Now that being said I do feel that fighters should enter Crown with open

eyes and a plan just in case. Have friends that you know will take on the

thankless job of entourage, check your finances to make sure you can cover

the costs, make sure your job provides you with enough free weekends to

make a proper appearance, don't expect people to give you clothes (there

are lots of promises of items but rarely do they appear), make doubly sure

that you get along well with your consort. Many relationships end after a

reign is over.


If you get to the Finals you had better talk over the reality of the situation

with your consort and friends. Don't get blinded by the glory of winning

but take a fast hard look at what really happens when you are Crown. Too

often unprepared people get caught up in the Big Shiny Hat and are truly

screwed for the next year. I've been in the Semis or Finals of a couple of

Crowns where I've thought to myself, "I don't [want] to do this" and died fast.


Anyone announcing they are going to get anything before it's been confirmed

only turns others off around them and can delay that inevitable conclusion.

So, I prefer to remain humble and get surprised.


Currently, I think I've pretty much got all the alphabet I'll ever get and I'm

fine with that. I may try to get the leaves (of either sort) someday but I'm

getting older and not playing as much so I remain realistic on my chances of

either. It would be nice but I'm not predicting either.


> So Gunthar, think about it ahead of time. I think you'd make a

> wonderful King again. Don't Count yourself out, yet. :-)  And oh  

> yes,  the points on the pointy hat go up. :-)


At my Coronation we still had the old style Crowns which resemble

what many people wear for Court Baronial coronets. I walked up,

made this big impressive speech and placed the Crown on my head.

A bit later in the Court someone reached from behind and turned the

Crown around so the front was forward instead of facing behind me.



> I think your chances of winning Crown are much better.


Definitely. But the lottery would be so much more fun.


> Stefan




<the end>

Formatting copyright © Mark S. Harris (THLord Stefan li Rous).
All other copyrights are property of the original article and message authors.

Comments to the Editor: stefan at florilegium.org