crown-cost-msg - 6/30/07
The monetary and other costs of being King and Queen in the SCA.
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
Re: Crown Tourney
Date: 13 Feb 92
From: lindal at killer.asd.sgi.com (Linda Levy)
Speaking as someone who just returned to normal (or what passes as normal) after serving the West as queen, I wish there was some way to show the cost of winning, not just entering.
The West does not have any unusal requirement (see Letter from John S. on this topic) However.... being Royalty cost us:
1- the Kings employment,
2-3000.00 dollars each,
3- several friendships which had to be set aside if they weren't SCA
4- lack of sleep, lack of food, lack of time,
5- things that we can never regain: Political innocence, respect for ALL peers, the desire to ever do it again (which, I am told will fade)
However we gained :
An infinite number of new friends all over the world, a certain degree of self confidence and a couple of new costumes, not to mention all the wonderful gifts we got just for being in the right place at the right time.
so was it worth it? time will tell.
Countess Linda - WEST
From: lindal at goddess.mfg.sgi.com (Linda Levy)
Subject: Re: subsidy for the Crown
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 19:22:13 GMT
meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org (meg) writes:
|> And now for something completely different. Should Baronies (and/or
|> other local groups) underwrite the expenses of the Crown? Phone calls,
|> postage, fabric/garb, travelling expenses, hotels, etc. add up to the
|> point where only a mundane elite can seriously consider being able to
|> afford to reign, especially in a large kingdom. Are we limiting the pool
|> of good and capable rulers by making the privilege accessable only to
|> those who can afford $2000--$8000? Not to mention the time factor...
|> lets have some figures. I know there are RoyalPeers out there? How much
|> |> did your reign(s) cost in time and money? Did you have a good supporting
|> household? Did you pay out of your own pocket or did local groups help?
|> |> If money were not a factor, would you enter Crown Tourney again? (I can
|> hear it now "no, money's not the factor, its my knees. We're gettin'old)
|> |> > ==
|> In the Current Middle Ages: Megan ni Laine de Belle Rive
|> In 1994: Linda Anfuso
|> meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org
My reign was in the West- so it was only 4 months long (plus the 2 months
as crown princess).
when we were first discussing the concept, I checked my budget and
estimated that I COULD spend about $1000.00 for the whole thing. Phillip
thought he could afford about $2000.00. we blew that away in the first month.
phone bills (two residences) $200.00 each per month = $2400.00(low est.)
costumes 2 each =$600
materials for favors/gifts = $500.00
postage = $200.00
gas & local events= $ 500.00
queens cyphers $200.00 (brass)
coronets $500.00 (silver)
trip to Lochac (two weeks) & oertha (week-end)
we paid 1/3, the kingdom paid 1/3, and the principalities paid 1/3
total for us appox $1000
office supplies $100.00
sooo..... total for two - approx $6000.00
and we tried to budget!!! obviously, there were frills involved. if we did
it again, some of our expenses would not have to be done again, so we
might get by cheaper. I would be interested to know what others spent and on
We usually got in free to the events and that did help.
We had a large hosehold that helped, and they carried alot of the cost of
food etc. but they had also just helped with another reign, and after we
stepped down, they picked up with the next K & Q (same household). Major
burn-out to the household (two full years of helping with Kingdom or
By the way, Phil was out of work for the last 3 months of the reign. that
REALLY made things interesting, but did give him more time to deal with
I think that the budget is rather personal, but I think people should know
what they might be getting into when they enter the lists.
Linda of the lakelands (west)
lindal at mfg.sgi.com
From: meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org (meg)
Subject: Re: cost of reigns
Date: Wed, 06 Jul 94 01:44:12 EDT
Organization: Stonemarche Network Co-op
una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk) writes:
> Respected Friend:
> Two to six thousand? Tennessee is cheaper than I thought... In _1980_
> the King amd Queen of the East spent more than _ten_ thousand- And the price
> of gas alone has risen, and risen, and...
actually, the average Eastern Reign during the past 10 years has cost the
Royal Couple $8000. The EK Travelling fund took some of the edge off the
winter reigns for travel to our then principality of Drachenwald, and in
the summer for Pennsic expenses, but it still is costly. Major
expense:phone bill, fabric, postage, pphotocopying, gas.
I still favor a law that provides a stipend for such expenses...a budget
could be drawn up, subject to periodic revisions, which allots so much
per item...we should subsidize our Royalty by budgeting it into Royal
Progress events. Pay to see the King!
Megan, decidedly radical today
In 1994: Linda Anfuso non moritur cujus fama vivat
In the Current Middle Ages: Megan ni Laine de Belle Rive
In the SCA, Inc: sustaining member # 33644
meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org | YYYYY |
From: lindal at goddess.mfg.sgi.com (Linda Levy)
Subject: Re: In-period Royal Travel Expenses.
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 1994 21:33:11 GMT
nsmca at aurora.alaska.edu writes:
> I thought for in-period travelling of the crown, that the local vassals
> were in charge of normal expenses. To include food, lodging, and such of
> the royal guests? I know its not a idea for a poor barony to bear. But
> why does a crown spend some $2k for their time on the throne?
> Same with the Royal Chancery/Exchequer and its duties to the normal
> expenses of the throne while it reigns.
During our reign, we were ALWAYS accomadated by the autocrats and the groups in terms of free feast/event tickets and crash space. Often we would have
people offering to drive us around. The generousity of the populace is a
MAJOR reason that people are able to afford to be royalty at all.
However, there are appearence and official duties that the populace seems
to want from their royalty that do cost extra, and cannot be charged off
to anyone else.
Well, I kept a list of sorts of our expenses during the months up to our
reign, and in the west thats two months prep time. I pretty much gave up
keeping a detailed account by the time we stepped up, but we still have the
bills and credit card slips, so its reasonably easy to account for everything.
1)We had alot of expenses that could just be called "things we needed
anyway, but suddenly had to afford NOW" such as new boots and a couple of
casual costumes. Plus I never needed a banner until then, so we had to have
one made for coronation & stepping down.
2) Phone bills $200.00 a month per royal if they live seperately (which we
did.) Of course, the West has Alaska and Australia to keep in touch with,
so other Kingdoms might not be as much. (and calling each other was long
3) coronation costumes and stepping down costumes approx 200.00 per costume, for fabric, trim, linings, buttons, thread, facings etc. The labor was donated.
4) Queens guards favors (approx. 24, including champion, advisor, and
captain) fabric, thread, beads & pewter tokens, $150.
5) Queens tea food & lemonade for the populace $ 200.00
6) Queens Ciphers(sp?) 10 at $10.00 each. labor donated.
7) gasoline for travel. EVERY WEEKEND $ 25.00 per week
8) Postage stamps $50.00, envelopes & stationary $10.00
9) copying expenses donated (approx. 500 misc letters & notes)
10) faxing expenses donated (at least one a week)
11) lost wages from days off to pack for events & travel time (once your
vacation time is all used up.) 10 days X 2 people
etc. Your decisions on what you wish to buy are your own, but there is a
minimum amout of service expected of a crown.
Total so far, and I KNOW I've missed obvious stuff = minimum $3710.00
+ lost wages.
then at the end you need coronets $$$
I'm sure that we could have saved money on some things, but it was a first
reign and we were both short on basic SCA court stuff.
Any other ex royals have advice on "how to afford to be "royal""?
linda of the lakelands (west)
From: becks2 at aol.com (Becks2)
Subject: Re: SCA vs GIRLS
Date: 5 Dec 1995 06:53:19 -0500
Terry Aucoin (HDXQ27A at prodigy.com) wrote:
> I have found that Girls and the SCA doesn't go together! I have lost
> two Girlfriends ...
Just an observation: The SCA is a relationship accelerater. Sitting a
throne is even more so. If a relationship is going to work, it will work
in the SCA. If it isn't you have the oportunity to find that sooner.
Sitting a throne accelerates even that, it's one of the reasons so many
couples break up on the throne.
From: Bev at orbiter.Com (Bev at orbiter.Com)
Date: 30 Jan 96 19:50:00
Subject: successful reign
Organization: MAG Systems, Inc/TFP BBS
From: Bev at Orbiter.Com (Bev)
IN>*truly* successful reign also requires:
IN> 1) Their Majesties are still on speaking terms with one another.
IN>If they are a couple, they are still together.
IN> 2) Their Majesties friends/household/squires are still on
IN>speaking terms with the ex-Rexes.
IN> 4) All three (or Four depending on where you are) Peerage orders
IN>are still on speaking terms with Their Majesties.
IN> 5) The various kingdom VIPs are still on speaking terms with
IN> 6) The Populace remembers Their Majesties as being unremarkable
IN>at worst and well-loved at best.
IN> 7) Their Majesties aren't in a financial hole and still have
IN>least one servicable automobile left. Their Majesties also get bonus
IN>points if they've been gainfully employed for the entire duration of
IN>their reign and their work hasn't suffered for it.
IN> 8) Everyone concerned would be happy to see Their Majesties
IN>on the thrones again.
That's nice in theory and it is certainly a worthy goal to strive
toward. However, in reality...it'd leave few "successful" reigns!
(You can please all of the Peers some of the time....etc).
| Baroness2 Atalaya la Sanadora, OP, OL Kingdom of Trimaris |
| Argent, two horses salient combattant sable, in chief in |
| cross four pheons conjoined at the point gules |
| Internet: bev at orbiter.com |
From: kms3 at ix.netcom.com(Kellene Stets)
Subject: re: Treatment of the Crowns
Date: 25 Nov 1996 21:28:45 GMT
LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.EDU (I. Marc Carlson) writes:
>Why don't more crowns appear to have a "Staff"? Many of them appear to
>have "Entourage" that seem to help out, but I have yet to see someone
>actually delegated to being "Royal Secretary".
Unfortunately, not all members of the populace will be content with an
answer from a secretary. Moreover, it is the Crown's job to serve the
people, and that means we have to have some form of accessibility.
Folks have to have the opportunity to ask us questions or give us
information. Most Midrealm monarachs do have paperwork staffs. I had
three or four people who helped out with the letters, filing etc during
my reigns. This enabled me to spend the phone time necessary. Yet I
still spent 20 hours per week on administration. The demands of a reign
vary depending on kingdom expectations and on what is going on at the
time. Some things only the Crown can do.
Subject: ANST - Burden of the Crown
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 99 18:32:02 MST
From: "Lorraine and/or Kief" <deer_kief at hotmail.com>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG, southern at Ansteorra.ORG
A month or so back a gentle issued displeasure
about the way our crowns remain circumspect in
It got me thinking...
Potentially everyone of us has the ability to
be Crown or Consort and even if we don't think
we have that ability we expect certian things
of our Crowns...in my world view we shouldn't
expect things of others that we couldn't or
wouldn't do ourselves so as an exercise: how do
you measure up to your expectation of what we
ask of our Monarchs or question what you think
you would do as Monarch...
Let's assume that the potential Monarchs are
those who are interested in doing whatever
they can discern is needed for Ansteorra...
They want to serve the people and make sure
that those who deserve recognition get it...
To be of the people...you need to travel and
meet people... How many places have you traveled
and how many people do you know there, in how
many regions?...Do you
know enough people that when something goes
haywire in a group, you know people to call on
to get other views than the ones yelling the
Have you read kingdom law?? What about corporate?
or even Marshallate? Are you ready to uphold them?
Do you have enough basis
of knowledge to make a judgement on whether
a group is following guidelines or is really
digging itself deeper.
How much of our history do you know...
what have we gone through in the past,
what issues hit our hot buttons?
What is our glory??
Are you ready to deal with real legal issues
like rape, assault, or theft.
Are you willing to put aside friendships
and household ties in matters where
you would normally be biased? Would you be
able to put aside your dislike and decide
justly on an issue with a long time adversary?
How many people have you recommended for awards?
Do you know your criteria?
Are you ready for a 9 month stint of everyone
in the kingdom wanting your ear, of being in the
spotlight ...and are
you able to generally discern BS from bias, from
concern, from panic, from "truth" (which is always
Are you ready to decide the fate of groups and
individuals within the context of the SCA.
Can you go on smiling for "the people"
when someone you cared deeply about
just betrayed you?
Do you know who your true friends are?
Are you ready for some of the greatest thrills
when you see your people at their finest and
for some of your greatest disappointments
when you see some of the people you
admire the most have feet of clay...
These are things I have asked myself
not because I really think I will
be a monarch, but because I realized
what I expected out of one...
I saw how much friends
of mine who have been monarchs have
gone through....the pain...the joy...
the exhaustion...always trying to
do the best for the kingdom and getting
tired of not being able to please
anyone (or at least it seems that way
caus all ya hear is the bitchin').
I then looked around an realized that on a
less concentrated level, people who stay
with our organization and have value have
also gone through much of this...
just something to think about...
In Service to Ansteorra
Subject: Re: ANST - need for kings
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 99 08:05:59 JST
From: Trish McCurdy <ladyoftherose at hotmail.com>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
"but it's the seneshals who do all the work. they sign all the checks. they
answer all the questions. they write all the reports. they are the ones
responsible for everything".....********
ummmmmmmmmmmmm no! Not in my two reign recollection. I remember long hours
on the road, the phone, reading letters of recommendations, Kingdom Law
changes, voting for territorial representatives ie: Baron and Baroness,
tedious treaty talks with other Kingdoms.
Then the phone bill came, representing those long hours, the gas bill, the
over the counter headache medicine bill (just kidding here, but only on this
A good Seneschal is a great benefit to a Kingdom and a Crown. But the Crown
is there in the public magnifying glass, trying their darndest to make
everyone happy, recognize the worthy, thank everyone who works, and give
those special moments out frequently to make the dream come alive for an
entire Kingdom, and geepers...they only have 6 months to do it in.
Don't get me wrong, I loved my two reigns. But don't sell those people who
share 6 months plus TRH time with you. It is a very hard job, a fun one at
times, but still alot of work.
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 16:56:34 MST
From: "Michael F. Gunter" <michael.gunter at fnc.fujitsu.com>
Subject: Re: ANST - Questions about Kings & Queens (long-Gunthar talking)
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
I know this was sent out a while ago and I have seen several comments
on your questions but I would like to add a little bit to the pile as well.
> I'm interested in learning more about the
> "crown". Please excuse me if I ask silly or difficult questions.
I find no reason for you to apologize for these questions. They are questions
that even those "old-timers" wonder about. I'm still a newbie after being
in only around 16 years. Goodness! Where does the time go? I'm still a
teenager after all!
> I have a general ideal of what the King/Queen does,
I found your little typo a bit amusing and illuminating. I know you meant to
type "idea" but I think "ideal" it actually a better word. We'll first talk about the meaning of the typo and then discuss what you actually said. The "ideal" Crown is different for every member of the SCA. Some like their Crowns to be aloof and majestic. Full of power and fury. Others like a "Mom and Dad". Loving of their children and beloved by all. Yet for others the "ideal" Crown is one of them. Laughing and remembering that this is a game after all. For each of
these, if the other is on the throne then that Crown is slightly lacking.
Now as to you having an idea of what the Crown does. It is funny how so many
people who have been in for many years still cannot truly comprehend all that
a Crown does unless they have been Crown or CLOSE entourage. Even after
being a knight for over eight years and close friends of several Crowns I was
unprepared for all that went into being King. I knew that Crowns sat in Court
and gave out awards and recieved loads of goodies from the adoring populace.
I knew they sat and gave judgement in Circle. I knew they went to events
almost every weekend but that was okay because when they got there they
got on site free and got free meals and didn't have to really work, no fighting,
no cleaning up, etc... They always said how much being Crown sucked but
always wanted to do it again. Okay. So I knew all about being Crown.
And then the King placed the Circlet of the Prince upon my brow. Thus I was
removed from my comfortable womb of non-Royalty and entered into the Real
World of the Crown. As an example. I didn't even have a chance to change out
of my armor before I was sitting in a Pelican meeting. After that I showered,
changed and ate. As soon as I was through with dinner I sat in a Belted Circle
until the arrival of the unknowing Princess. Court was quickly assembled
and she got the surprise of her life. After Court was the continuation of the
Belted Circle (we could see the party our household was having), from the Belted Circle we went to a Great Officers of State meeting which finally concluded around 1:30 in the morning. By the time the new Prince and Princess got back to camp everyone had gone to bed. Welcome to the fun-filled life of Royalty.
Crowns put in a lot of hours in the week dealing with phone calls, award
recommendations, planning for the next event, fixing problems that arise in the Kingdom, washing, unpacking, packing, writing reports and submissions to the newsletter, having people over all the time, etc...
But then they get to go to the event and be King and Queen. In our 6 months as
Crown we got 3 weekends at home. We went from Northkeep to La Marche Sauvage, from Bordermarche to Adlersruhe. Remember that we were in the spotlight not just when we arrived on site but even when home. Frequently, instead of meeting the people of the kingdom as we desired, we had to be sequestered with local personages to attend to problems that only the Crown could fix. We got to sit watch the fighting instead of being out there and having fun too. Often we missed the fighting because members of the populace would approach us to chat. Talking with our populace was a true joy. And definately worth missing a couple of fights.
As Crown I got to sit in a crowded room filled with other high personages and
Decide to cancel Gulf War and tell 4000 people to go home. [Because Gulf Wars got rained out on Friday morning that year - Stefan]. But at that same time I got to see people from all kingdoms helping each other out and having a party to defy the elements. I still get a tear when I remember the ovation the populace gave us in that damp court. That's a tenth of what a Crown does.
> but what are the most difficult things a king/queen has to do?
All of your questions are simple but all have many levels of answers. The most
->Going against a friend's wishes because you feel what you do is right for the
->Going against YOUR wishes because you feel what you do is right for the
->Keeping a smile on your face when everything is crashing down around you.
->Not getting drunk, or having a dalliance with that cute little thing flirting
with you or throwing a tantrum when little things build up because you are the Crown and everything you do is a reflection of your Kingdom.
->Being diplomatic when you really want to tell someone to get stuffed.
->Having huge arguments with your consort on whether or not to give an award.
->Driving, driving, driving.
->Seeing your friends having to setup or break camp and working their tails off
while you sit in meetings and aren't allowed to help them.
Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 11:37:19 -0600
From: "Michael Gunter" <countgunthar at hotmail.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Crown planning
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
> Well, I think some folks entering Crown ought to think a little bit more
> about what happens if they win it, before they enter. You, at least, have
> the benefit of having been through it once. Some folks seem to get caught
> up in it and forget that winning can be a life-changing event, in both
> good and bad ways. I've tried to put some of this in this file, although
> it is questionable how many Crown entries have actually read it:
Well, my point was more to the effect of to not "expect" to win either
the selection or Crown. I find nothing more annoying than some fighter
or consort who goes around talking about what they are going to do
when they are Crown.
There are always plans and thoughts but expect to win is foolish unless
you are Superduke X. For me to say I'm going to win this Spring's Crown
cheapens the other fighters who are thinking "Oh no you ain't." It
strikes me as a bit pompous and arrogant.
Now that being said I do feel that fighters should enter Crown with open
eyes and a plan just in case. Have friends that you know will take on the
thankless job of entourage, check your finances to make sure you can cover
the costs, make sure your job provides you with enough free weekends to
make a proper appearance, don't expect people to give you clothes (there
are lots of promises of items but rarely do they appear), make doubly sure
that you get along well with your consort. Many relationships end after a
reign is over.
If you get to the Finals you had better talk over the reality of the situation
with your consort and friends. Don't get blinded by the glory of winning
but take a fast hard look at what really happens when you are Crown. Too
often unprepared people get caught up in the Big Shiny Hat and are truly
screwed for the next year. I've been in the Semis or Finals of a couple of
Crowns where I've thought to myself, "I don't [want] to do this" and died fast.
Anyone announcing they are going to get anything before it's been confirmed
only turns others off around them and can delay that inevitable conclusion.
So, I prefer to remain humble and get surprised.
Currently, I think I've pretty much got all the alphabet I'll ever get and I'm
fine with that. I may try to get the leaves (of either sort) someday but I'm
getting older and not playing as much so I remain realistic on my chances of
either. It would be nice but I'm not predicting either.
> So Gunthar, think about it ahead of time. I think you'd make a
> wonderful King again. Don't Count yourself out, yet. :-) And oh
> yes, the points on the pointy hat go up. :-)
At my Coronation we still had the old style Crowns which resemble
what many people wear for Court Baronial coronets. I walked up,
made this big impressive speech and placed the Crown on my head.
A bit later in the Court someone reached from behind and turned the
Crown around so the front was forward instead of facing behind me.
> I think your chances of winning Crown are much better.
Definitely. But the lottery would be so much more fun.