SCA-oaths-msg

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SCA-oaths-msg - 8/9/09

Swearing oaths in the SCA. Peerage and Officer oaths.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,

Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous

Stefan at florilegium.org

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Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 18:02:46 -0500 (EST)

From: lilinah at earthlink.net

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT- Peerage Oaths

To: SCA-Cooks <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Here in the West...

Fealty Oath

When a new King and Queen take the thrones, they swear fealty to the Kingdom and the populace. It's a standard fealty oath that's been used in the West not only since rocks were soft, but around the time of the creation of dirt. It is derived from The Lord of the Rings.

Here do I swear by mouth and hands

fealty and protection to the Kingdom

and populace of the West;

to uphold the Laws of the Kingdom,

to speak and to be silent,

to do and to let be,

to strike and to spare,

to punish and to reward

in such matters as concern the Kingdom,

in need or in plenty, in peace or in war,

in living or in dying,

until I depart from my Throne

or death take me or the world end.

So say I, (name).

(and the Queen says: So also say I, (name).)

Greater officers swear fealty to their (king&queen/prince&princess/baron&baroness) when they step up (into office) and when there's a change of royalty. The Heralds reads the oath, which differs from the above a fair bit, and at the end all say, "I so swear(or affirm)". One can choose not to if one doesn't care for the tuchus on the throne - perhaps one needs to take an urgent potty break, or perhaps one never makes it into court.

Peers are asked (but not required) to swear fealty when there's a change of royalty. Some royalty call them up peerage by peerage, or sometimes as a whole group of peers. This is repeated at Principality events, in case anyone missed the kingdom event.

Peerage Oath

A peerage oath is what one swears when one becomes a peer (I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong). The oath for knights differs from the oath for laurels and pelicans. There is a standard ceremony and oath, but one can also use a non-standard format for the ceremony up to a certain point, when the standard oath kicks in. It ends with the oath of fealty, related to the oath the royalty swear when taking office. Here's the one for Laurels and Pelicans:

Here do I swear by mouth and hand

fealty and service to the Crown and Kingdom of the West;

to speak and to be silent, to come and to go,

to strike and to spare, to do and to let be

in matters as concern the Kingdom

on my honor and the lawful commands of the Crown

in need or in plenty, in peace or in war

in living or in dying from this hour henceforth

until the King depart from His Throne

or death take me, or the world end.

so say I, (name).

The Ceremony Books for the Kingdom of the West and its three remaining Principalities are on-line at

http://heralds.westkingdom.org/

under Court Heraldry.

Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)

the persona formerly known as Anahita

Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 20:23:58 +1300

From: Antonia Calvo <ladyadele at paradise.net.nz>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT- Peerage Oaths

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Stefan li Rous wrote:

<<< I like 'Lainie's idea of swearing fealty with my hands between those

of my liege, if the King was someone I respected highly, such as

Gunthar, but I guess that is also crossing over between fealty to a

person and to an institution. >>>

I swore fealty holding the hands of their Majesties Theuderic and Engelin.

<<< For you Peers out there, that swore an oath, was the oath you swore a

generic one, or one that you created for yourself or one taken from

medieval times? >>>

I swore thusly:

From this hour, I become your man, for life, for limb, and for worldly

honour. I will be true and faithful to the Crown of Lochac, never

cause it harm and will observe my oath to it completely against all

persons in good faith and without deceit.

Antonia di Benedetto Calvo

Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 06:24:34 -0700

From: James Prescott <prescotj at telusplanet.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT- Peerage Oaths

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

In An Tir my Peerage oaths (OP & OL) were generic, mentioned among other

things continuing to serve / perform, and did not include fealty.

I have sworn fealty a large number of times using a variety of generic,

custom, and historical oaths.

Thorvald

Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 09:23:38 -0700

From: "Kathleen A Roberts" <karobert at unm.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT- Peerage Oaths

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Mon, 2 Mar 2009 01:03:35 -0600

Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com> wrote:

<<< For you Peers out there, that swore an oath, was the oath

you swore a generic one, or one that you created for

yourself or one taken from medieval times? >>>

of course i wrote my own... how else was I going to make

grown men cry?

We swear on the sword of state, lightning.

It was very persona appropriate (funny, she doesn't look

druish) likening the king to the sun that warms and

protects and the queen to the moon that gently guides our

path in the darkness. i promised to speak praise loudly

and criticism quietly, to nurture and defend the fledgling

and aid and support the experienced. i finished it up

with a rather irish oath of 'this do i swear, and if i do

not, let the heavens fall upon me, the earth break beneath

me and the sea swallow me up.'

The king was crying, his champion was crying, the guard

were crying, the... heck, everybody was crying.

It was very moving, but then it was for bardic arts. ;)

Ban-fili Cailte Caitchairn, OL

Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 05:15:54 -0500

From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT- Peerage Oaths

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Mar 2, 2009, at 2:03 AM, Stefan li Rous wrote:

<<< I like 'Lainie's idea of swearing fealty with my hands between those

of my liege, if the King was someone I respected highly, such as

Gunthar, but I guess that is also crossing over between fealty to a

person and to an institution.

For you Peers out there, that swore an oath, was the oath you swore

a generic one, or one that you created for yourself or one taken

from medieval times? >>>

I've never been asked to swear fealty as a peer, but I did so a few

times in my capacity as a great officer of state.

I swore, with my hands between those of the King and Queen, to

faithfully serve the wellbeing and interests of the people of the

Eastrealm, under the dictates of conscience and the guidance of the

Crown.

Realizing that this is not everybody's idea of fealty, I'd then ask if

this was acceptable, and the Crown always said yes.

My favorite [real, period] Oath of Fealty is from the elders of some

Spanish town, and essentially it says, "We, who are no less than you,

take you, who are no greater than us, to be our Lord and King,

provided you uphold our ancient liberties and laws. And if not, not."

It seems to become a little more attractively relevant with each reign.

Adamantius

Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 07:35:03 -0700

From: edoard at medievalcookery.com

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT- Peerage Oaths

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

-------- Original Message --------

From: lilinah at earthlink.net

Here in the West...

[...]

Peerage Oath

A peerage oath is what one swears when when one becomes a peer (i'm sure i'll be corrected if i'm wrong). The oath for knights differs from the oath for laurels and pelicans. There is a standard ceremony and oath, but one can also use a non-standard format for the ceremony up to a certain point, when the standard oath kicks in. It ends with the oath of fealty, related to the oath the royalty swear when taking office. Here's the one for Laurels and Pelicans:

------------------------------------

Note that all such oaths are optional, as per SCA corpora, and that when

an individual is unwilling to swear an oath for religious or other

reasons an alternate ceremony must be allowed for which doesn't involve

an oath.

- Doc (Quaker, who had an affirmation at his elevation)

Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 10:06:05 -0600

From: Michael Gunter <countgunthar at hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT- Peerage Oaths

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< They don't call up the knights individually to give their oaths? That

is often done here in Ansteorra, although I don't think it is common

in Ansteorra for the other Peers to get time for individual oaths. >>>

We don't require non-Knights to swear fealty. A non-knight may swear

an oath of personal fealty but it is not required for their Peerage.

The only other group that is required to swear fealty is the Landed

Baronage.

Officers are required to swear an Oath of Service which is different from

fealty.

<<< While it is period, I find the individual oaths to be rather boring

and drawn out at Coronations, at least for the audience. You can't

hear the individual oaths. >>>

I've always found the individual oaths of fealty to be rather boring myself.

So what we did was tell the knights that they are already bound by the

original oath they swore when they were chained. What they do at Coronation

is simply reaffirming their original oath. This way a mass oath does not

cheapen the fealty of the individual and a knight doesn't have to feel duty

bound to say nice things if they don't like me personally. They don't even

have to be there but are still in fealty to the Crown and Kingdom if not to

me personally.

We also allowed that any knight who wishes to swear a personal fealty

may do so at any other Court other than Coronation and they would be

granted the honor of being the first order of business. I would never

command or demand knights to give me fealty as has been done by

other Kings. Once the oath is sworn and the person chained that oath

continues until it is nullified either by the individual or Society.

Oh, and one thing we did at our Coronation was we found a period oath

and made a couple of changes to better suit our game. This got away

from the Tolkien oath that is used so much. Well, we attempted to use

the period oath but with everything else going on Elizabeth and I kept

forgetting the words and just ad libbed it anyway. But at least we made

the attempt!

<<< Stefan >>>

Gunthar

Still King

Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 17:04:14 -0500

From: "Terri Morgan" <online2much at cox.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT- Peerage Oaths

To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< For you Peers out there, that swore an oath, was the oath you swore a

generic one, or one that you created for yourself or one taken from

medieval times? >>>

Mine was very personal - I swore only what I felt I could give and my oath

was to the SCA, not the Kingdom or the Crowns. I swore to them, as

representatives of the Society "the deeds of my heart, my hands, and my mind

in service to the Society for as long as the mountains kiss the sky, the

waters lap the shores or my breath warms my body."

The act of fealty is an act of binding, of gift/obligation between one and

the other - I'm not comfortable with letting others put my honour in their

words.

Since my household is a Great Nation, I do not swear to Kingdoms - although

I have bend knee and sworn fealty to individual throne-holders on a personal

basis after my peerage had taken affect and each of those times, again, it

was a personal oath based in what I specifically wished to give to that

particular monarch, and what they were willing to accept and give to me.

Hrothny

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 21:23:05 -0400

From: Solveig Throndardottir <nostrand at acm.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT- Peerage Oaths

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< Note that all such oaths are optional, as per SCA corpora, and that

when an individual is unwilling to swear an oath for religious or other

reasons an alternate ceremony must be allowed for which doesn't

involve an oath. >>>

Except for the chivalry which is divided into two parts for precisely

this reason.

Your Humble Servant

Solveig Throndardottir

Amateur Scholar

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:15:01 -0700

From: "Celia des Archier" <CeliadesArchier at cox.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT- Peerage Oaths

To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

So, in other words, Atlantia is violating Society policy... they're just doing it like employers who get away with anti-discrimination laws, by "good ole boy" rules? I really don't know what to say to that.

*Is* it unofficial policy? The way folks were talking, it sounded like the BoD mandate that there be an option was official policy

that no one be inhibited from participation on the requirement to swear fealty. I haven't read the Corpora lately, so I'm not sure.

But it would seem to me that the policy against religious discrimination would apply in the case of requiring an oath of fealty, so

"vetting" people well in advance to prohibit them from becoming a member of the Chivalry if they will not take an oath of fealty

amounts to religious discrimination, so it seems to me that they're going around a very important policy. Of course, I know from

personal experience that the part of Corpora which is intended to prevent religious discrimination can't actually prevent bigotry,

but at least it *should* prohibit it's occurring in such a systemized manner.

I'm sorry... but what you're saying below is actually pretty shocking to me. Taking an oath, any kind of oath, is something that

some people take very seriously, and I would expect a society based on Chivalry to understand that such a requirement would hit on

ethics or religious beliefs for many people. So hearing that members of a Kingdom's Order of Chivalry within the SCA are

essentially skirting around non-discrimination policies to permit them to discriminate against people who might hold religious

beliefs or even just personal ethics which prevented them from taking an oath of fealty to a temporary and pretend monarch - well...

it's pretty shocking to me.

I certainly wouldn't expect there to be a lot of people who would choose to become an MoA rather than a Knight/Dame, but I would

expect those who do to be people with very strong religious and/or ethical values... exactly the type of people whom we would *want*

in the Order of Chivalry.

In Service,

Celia.

-----Original Message-----

<<< So, does anyone belong to a Kingdom where they don't

have Masters of Arms? Shoshonna, which Kingdom(s) do

you understand not to acknowledge them? >>>

Atlantia, for one. If we have a Master of Arms, they are an import. There

have been loud and definite statements from many of our Knights that no MoA

would ever be made in this Kingdom - and from what I have observed,

candidates are vetted well in advance to ensure that they will swear fealty

come the day.

It's a pity, but one cannot force a change of unofficial policy on a group

of people - any Royal who'd try would be laying a huge burden on the

shoulders of the MoA as he (or she) (no, wait, we've never had a female

knight, either) would be shunned by a significant body of the Chivalry.

Hrothny

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 17:41:13 -0400

From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT- Peerage Oaths

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Mar 24, 2009, at 5:15 PM, Celia des Archier wrote:

<<< I'm sorry... but what you're saying below is actually pretty

shocking to me. Taking an oath, any kind of oath, is something that

some people take very seriously, and I would expect a society based

on Chivalry to understand that such a requirement would hit on

ethics or religious beliefs for many people. So hearing that

members of a Kingdom's Order of Chivalry within the SCA are

essentially skirting around non-discrimination policies to permit

them to discriminate against people who might hold religious

beliefs or even just personal ethics which prevented them from

taking an oath of fealty to a temporary and pretend monarch - well...

it's pretty shocking to me.

I certainly wouldn't expect there to be a lot of people who would

choose to become an MoA rather than a Knight/Dame, but I would

expect those who do to be people with very strong religious and/or

ethical values... exactly the type of people whom we would *want*

in the Order of Chivalry. >>>

And, of course, since none of us has ever seen a member of the

Chivalry (or other peerage) break an oath (have we???), it becomes all

the more important that this high standard be maintained. Right?

I was the apprentice of a Laurel who's a practicing Quaker, and he had

trouble with the concept of an oath of fealty, which I suspect he

passed on, in part, to me.

I've just been really careful not to make any promises I'm not certain

I can keep, or to make any secret of who it is, in the Society, that I

serve.

Adamantius

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 11:12:26 -0500

From: Michael Gunter <countgunthar at hotmail.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Masters at Arms

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Ansteorra has had several MoAs and in the early years most

of our high-ranking fighters were Masters. Atenveldt was almost

exclusively Masters for their first years mainly because their

biggest influence was from Duke Richard of Montroyal, MoA.

I had a friend, Sir Starhelm Warlocke (shows just how old those

days were), who lived in Meredies at the time he was offered

the accolade. He wanted to be a MoA like his teacher at the

time, Duke Lloyd von Eaker. The Crown sent him away saying

they would only make Knights. Unfortunately for the Crown

Starhelm happened to be dating Katherine Kurtz who was

the Steward of the Society at the time. After many angry

words and threats Starhelm was eventually granted the only

"Knight Bachelor" in the Society. He wore a White Belt but

never swore fealty and was not allowed to wear the chain.

When I was approached to be elevated I nearly decided to

become a Master because I never felt I'd be courtly enough

for knighthood. I can see myself as more the weaponsmaster

who teaches the young squires and knights. But I decided that

all my life I wanted to be a knight. Not the same as, but different.

So I was belted and chained and have spent the next two decades

trying to live up to it.

I believe that a knight swears his oath but once and all the other

times are just re-affirmations of that original oath. If I don't kneel

before the Crown and say the words does not mean I'm not in

fealty. I also feel that the knights are the only group this rule

applies to.

Baronies in fief are the only group who are required to swear fealty.

Officers swear oaths of service, which are different.

Any other oaths sworn are gifts of personal fealty to the personages

wearing the Crown.

Yers,

Gunthar