SCA-land-msg - 1/28/00
SCA owned land ideas. West and Trimaris Land Funds.
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
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Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
From: Dorothy J Heydt (6/10/94)
To: Mark Harris
RE>West land fund, etc.
Under West Kingdom Law, no branch can be compelled to comtribute
to the Kingdom. This is actually an issue at the moment. The
"non-member surcharge" is still a live issue. If we implement at
all, we will raise site fees by $1 for everyone (most likely).
If more than $3 per non-member is collected (as is very likely
for local events in the West), there is no way for the excess
funds to help the Kingdom--though we can request it for the
Kingdom funds (Travel Fund, KHTI, etc.).
> > Do you have to have the money first before you can purchase the land? Or
> > was some type of mortgage not desired? How did you get around the politics?
> > Around here I could see a fight over what part of the kingdom this land
> > be put in. The groups closest to it would get the greatest use out of it.
> One needs enough money up-front to be taken seriously by sellers
> and agents. The plan is (as far as I know) to put about $100,000
> down and the seller will take back about an $80,000 interest-only
> mortgage with the prinipal due as a ballon payment after 7 years.
> Other money will be needed for site improvements like roads,
> water and the like. Since there is no piped in water, there will
> need to be some form of holding tank, for instance.
> How long did it take to collect the current land fund? I do realize
> that once the site is being used you can collect site fees to pay off
> the loan and that you will be paying more than half the land price
> in cash.
The Land Fund has been build for about 20 years. Over half of it
has been raised in the last 5 years, though. Contact Eilis for
details on how *that* was accomplished.
As it is, the site in escrow is within 2 to 3 hours of at least
60% of the populace of the West. (My estimate.) As Flieg put it
once--the site is equally inconvenient to everyone.
The central pasrt of the West is really quite compact compared to
nearly every kingdom except Caid, or possibly Atlantia.
> How big is this site?
74 acres. At least 40 acres of it are flat. It is my estimate,
that by renting the fields of neighboring landowners for parking,
we could camp as many as 3,000 people on the site--and still have
the parking close enough to avoid running shuttles. With a bit
more creative use, and depending on neighbors being willing to
rent us most of the surrounding flat areas, that might rise to
handling 5,000 people.
> I hope they put in a big enough water system. One of the problems
> with the site used for the Gulf War in Merides was the water supply.
I have been to any number of events where all the water had to be
trucked in, so working with minimal water supplies is something
the West can deal with. The conditions in the West have more in
common with West Texas than with the eastern parts or Meridies.
San Francisco, for instance averages about 21 inches of rain a
> I have personally put in a number of work hours clearing sites of
> brush and rocks, making fire pits and cutting trails and then had
> the site pulled from SCA use or the rates raised so high as to
> force us to abandon use of the site. The idea of having our own
> permanent site is appealing.
Digging fire pits.... Oh, my.... It is an extraordinary Western
site that permits ground fires at all. You may have heard
references to "protable fire pits." They're a common sight here
and work very well. When one is camping in 2-foot-tall dry grass
(a common problem here), one is *very* careful with fire. You
probably saw my letter to the editor in _TI_ about candelaria.
That was a major concern of mine when the original article
appeared less than a week before June Crown last year.
From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Subject: Re: One Million Dollars
Date: 16 Nov 1994 03:12:20 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
In article <AikjArq00WB94fZ7kQ at andrew.cmu.edu>,
David Schroeder <ds4p+ at andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
> Let's try a thought experiment and consider what the
> effect of such a bequest be if the money were given to:
> o The Corporation (as currently set up)
> o The Reformed SCA (according to whatever model you choose)
> o Your Kingdom
> o Your Local Group
In the unlikely event that I have sufficient estate to leave
anything much to anybody, the likeliest places for it to go would
be KHTI (formerly the West Kingdom Land Fund) or the kingdom.
My local group spends most of its time being a placeholder to
keep the adjacent groups from running into each other.
The kingdom is (financially) well administered--to the point that
in spite of very heavy travel expenses this year (we've gotten at
least some Royalty to *every* Board meeting this year plus we
held a coronation on the other side of the Pacific Ocean), so far
the kingdom has seen a *increase* in its assets. (Not a large
increase--but an increase none-the-less.)
KHTI is in the business of finding, buying, and developing land
primarily for SCA use. As such, it needs *large* sums of money
if we are to have KHTI-owned sites at all near by. The deal that
failed earlier this year would have purchased 74 acres for
something over $180,000--and that was 2 hours from the main
population centers of the "central" West.
From: Dorothy J Heydt (11/20/94)
To: Mark Harris
Mail*LinkĘ SMTP RE>One Million Dollars
> >KHTI is in the business of finding, buying, and developing land
> >primarily for SCA use. As such, it needs *large* sums of money
> >if we are to have KHTI-owned sites at all near by. The deal that
> >failed earlier this year would have purchased 74 acres for
> >something over $180,000--and that was 2 hours from the main
> >population centers of the "central" West.
> Oh!! :-( What happened? You described the land and the mortgage
> arrangements and some of the development ideas to me in a message
> a while back. I guess I'd gotten the idea it was a done deal.
The neighbors turned out and opposed the use permit. No use
permit no camping. Rather than make a fight out of it, KHTI
decided that having neighbors that were unhappy was deceidedly
counterproductive (much to the relief of the planning commission
that really *liked* the idea in the first place).
So anyway.... The hunt for land is on again.
From: ansteorra at eden.com (7/13/95)
To: ansteorra at eden.com
RE>SCA owned land
In message 12 Jul 1995 17:43:56 -0500,
"Mark Harris" <mark_harris at quickmail.sps.mot.com> writes:
> If anyone wants details on the West Land Fund and land, let me know
> and I'll send you the file.
> Stefan li Rous
If anyone has a question about the West Kingdom Land Fund and KHTI (Kingdom
Historical Trust Inc.), just ask. I was a Land Fund Trustee and now I'm
Fundraising Coordinator for KHTI.
--- eilis o'boirne
From: Lee Forgue (7/27/95)
To: Mark Harris
RE>SCA owned land
In message 14 Jul 1995 16:20:45 -0500,
"Mark Harris" <mark_harris at quickmail.sps.mot.com> writes:
> As you may have seen, I posted some of what I had on the West Kingdom Land
> Fund and the first site to the Ansteorra mail list. As all most of the
> information I have came from Hal Ravn, I'd love to have your viewpoints if
> you disagree or agree or just want to add details to what he said. If you
> don't see that message on the Ansteorra list I can send you a copy of my
> file if you wish.
What Hal said was pretty much accurate. I get the Ansteorra list because
I'm Board Ombudsman for Ansteorra, and anything I can do to learn more about
the Kingdom and its concerns seems a good idea.
> What is the KHTI? I assume it is similar to the land fund, but I don't
> think I've ever heard of it.
KHTI (Kingdom Historical Trust, Inc.) is a separate 501(c)3 corporation that
was set up by the Trustees of the Land Fund. The Land Fund was then
officially closed. This was done primarily to protect the money in the case
of a suit against the SCA; it also serves, when we finally buy land, to
protect the SCA from suits caused by problem with the land..
> I still can't see how you can come up with land that most groups will be
> happy with. I would think that the groups farthest away would complain
> that it was too far from them. Who decides who uses the site (when you get
> it). First come, first served? Used only for kingdom events?
Don't forget that we're talking about a much smaller area in the central
West than you are in Ansteorra. Once you cut off Oertha (Alaska), Lochac
(Australia) and the Far West (Japan, Korea, etc.), you can drive from the
north to the south of the Kingdom in (max) 14 hours, and from east to west
in about 4 hours. Yes, the further-out groups will complain -- they
complain now, but are realistic enough to see that they are on the edges of
The current plan is that the land will be used for 2 or 3 Kingdom events a
year (we have 3 Crowns, 3 Coronations, an A&S event, and several
interkingdom wars), a few Principality events, and any local events that
groups care to rent the land for. It will also serve as a backup site, in
case another site falls through. We may eventually rent to other
historical recreation non-profits, but the West Kingdom will be given
priority on reserving dates.
> Is there a prepared handout for either of these groups?
If you send me an address, I'll have the Secretary send you copies of the
handout we have.
--- eilis o'boirne
From: ansteorra at eden.com (7/13/95)
To: ansteorra at eden.com
RE>SCA owned land
On 12 Jul 95 at 17:43, Mark Harris wrote:
> FYI, the dream site is available up here for a mere million
> dollars... (or so the site owners tell us).
> Can you give us more details about the site?
The Will Rogers Boy Scout camp is a wooded 363 acres 35 miles from
Tulsa in Cleveland OK. It has a small lake and a river runs through
the back end of the property. It has 13? camp sites with permanent
latrines and cold showers. It has a dining hall that seats up to
200 and a fully stocked kitchen with large smoker, commercial
convection ovens and a walk-in coolers AND freezers. (You can tell
where my interests lie.) In addition to the rangers house, there is
also an air conditioned health lodge, administration building, snack
building and cooks cabin. There is a working swimming pool on site
(and at InterKingdom that included lifeguards for 10 hours a day.)
Due to budget problems, this site needs more money. The SCA was the
first outside group to rent the site. Both the ranger and the
Council Executive have mentioned (half-way serious) that we should
buy the site and lease/rent it back to them. The ranger was the one
that suggested the number 1 million. Personally, I think that the
number would be closer to 1.5 million for outright purchase of the
site. An interesting possiblity would purchase of the site with time
payments some in cash and some in site use (lease back).
Paul Shore | shore at pp.okstate.edu
Computing & Information Services | Voice (405) 744-5888
Physical Plant | Fax (405) 744-6195 5888
Oklahoma State University | http://www.pp.okstate.edu/
From: ansteorra at eden.com (10/26/95)
sca-lochac "Coeur Loyal"- a land grant for _
Food for thought, forwarded from the Lochac list:
>Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 20:29:35 +1000
>From: alex_t at spirit.com.au (Alex Tewes)
>Subject: sca-lochac "Coeur Loyal"- a land grant for Politarchopolis
>A small announcement ...
>Over the past few weeks Baron and Baroness Politarchopolis and myself have
>been in negotiations with the ACT government about a grant of land to the
>SCA in Canberra. We had a meeting last week and it appears that we are
>eligible. The size and location of the parcel of land will depend on our
>formal application. Their words were "Tell us what you need and we'll find
>something suitable for you". The land would be on lease for a period of
>between 20 and 50 years, and lease costs would be 5% of the unimproved value
>(the figure of $100 per year in lease costs was suggested by the government
>Like I said above, the size and location of any land parcel is up for
>discussion, but it was suggested the size could be about 10 hectares. We
>presented a draft developmental plan to the meeting which entailed the
>siting of a tourney field with spectator stand, an archery range, and (later
>on) blacksmith's workshop, woodworker, pottery workshop, ablution block and
>... a proper Feast Hall (with kitchen).
>The actual plan to be incorporated in the formal application will be a
>reflection of any input by the populace of Politarchopolis in particular,
>and Lochac in general. This is because, although the site will be within
>Polit and owned by Polit, it should be seen as a resource from which the
>whole of Lochac can benefit. A place where eventually a Principality
>Library may reside for members to carry out research; a place where the
>history of Lochac may be displayed for future generations to marvel at the
>work and enthusiasm of those that saw Lochac take its first tentative steps;
>and a place that the SCA can call its very own.
>A final word; the project is currently running under the tentative name of
>"Coeur Loyal" a french name meaning loyal heart. Coeur Loyal is, in my
>view, a statement of faith in the future of the SCA in Australia; it is
>saying that we firmly believe that in 50 years time the SCA will still be
>here and fluorishing. It is giving the SCA roots into the very soil of our
>land and hoping to provide a "loyal heart" indeed to both Politarchopolis
>I commend this project to all who read this words, and hope that you will
>freely give of your enthusiasm, comments, and ideas in the hope that Coeur
>Loyal grows and bears fruit for all of us to share.
>Martin de Mont Blanc
>Seneschal of the Barony of Politarchopolis
>Martin de Mont Blanc and Romille de Mont Blanc
>BARONY of Politarchopolis
>Lochac, WEST (That's Canberra, Australia)
>Alex Tewes *Jacquie Tewes shares this account*
>alex_t at spirit.com.au j_tewes at spirit.com.au
>ph:+61 6 257 8414
From: Dani Eder (9/11/95)
To: markh at sphinx
Thank you for writing, I know about the Architecture Guild. The
'Castle Guild' is technically a partnership, with shares of ownership
proportional to the contributions of labor, raw materials, tools, and
money. Our purpose is to build a castle, with secondary goals of
using our property as an SCA site, and such money-making activities as
will help support the construction. For example, operating a medieval
bed & breakfast hotel out of the building when enough of it is built,
and having tours of the castle for tourists.
We intend to build, in the long run, a full size castle (170x260')
but are starting with smaller projects and working up. Last year we
bought a 35 acre property in north Alabama (4 miles east of Interstate
65 exit 318, about 1 hour north of Birmingham). The property is
wooded (15 acres hardwoods, 20 acres pines), and we are cutting wood
into timbers for construction. There is a limestone quarry 5 miles
from the property where we are getting our stone. In fact, this
past weekend we bought our first load of stones. Our projects are:
(1) A stone mailbox, 18" square and 5' above ground (due to start any
(2) A blacksmith's forge and chimney. The forge bed is 4x4' and the
chimney is 2x4' and 20' high
(3) The workshop building to go around the forge - we will start
with a 20x20 building and add to it later. The workshop is located
in the castle courtyard, with one side of the workshop being part
of the coutyard wall.
(4) A 30x30 section of the main building, including one tower
(5) Additional sections of the main building, courtyard, etc.
We are doing these projects to gain experience in stonework because
none of us right now is an experienced mason, and the forge and workshop
are needed parts of the job anyway.
As far as the design, we chose French chateau as the style of
construction - partly because it looks like what people expect
a castle to look like, and partly because it matches the type of
stone we have to work with. We intend what is visible to look
as authentic as possible, but with modern improvements built in.
For example, the walls will be real stone, but with steel reinforcing
added in. We have to use modern sanitation, refrigeration in the
kitchen, fire safety design, etc., both because it makes good sense,
and various government offices won't let you occupy it otherwise,
but we will try to make it un-obtrusive.
From: Will Ritchie <ritchie at freenet.tlh.fl.us>
To: markh at risc.sps.mot.com
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 00:50:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Trimaris Land Fund
The Trimarian Land fund has been going for a while now, though it will
have only recently become a seperate account in the bank as well as in the
books. The fund is administered by the Kingdom Exchequer; Duke Baldar is
our "LandCzar"; he has little to do with the money but is a sort of
The fund currently has over $6500, and will be well over $10,000 by the
end of the year. Funds come in from a variety of sources: non-member fees
at events, proceeds from our two (so far) "Vivat Trimaris!" albums
(professionally recorded anthologies of original songs by our best
performers), portions of our "cuts" from inter-kingdom wars, and other
sources extant and in progress.
All Trimarian kingdom events are full weekend, cabins-available events, as
are 75% of all local events scheduled in the kingdom calendar. I don't
have the figures at hand, but we spend tens of thousands of dollars every
year on site rental, and stand to save much of that with even a single
site under our ownership.
This is a _long_term_project_; we have tens of thousands of dollars to
amass before we have to hash out the minutiae of a purchase. An educated
estimate is that we won't even be shopping for land in this century.
Nothing is set in stone, but the purchase of an existing campground is our
main priority. Pre-existing infrastructure that will allow us to hold
events there quickly with little or no construction will mean that we can
immediately start saving large amounts of money on rental, which can then
be put into camp improvements.
In other words, we may start out with the usual cabins & fake totem poles
sort of camp that we currently use, and use the savings to build/remodel
the place into the _real_ camp. Phase One would be something on the order
of "Make functional repairs/improvements and remove all totem poles,
plywood Woodsy Owl's, etc." Phase Two would consist of ambiance
improvements to the existing camp (wattle-and-daub finishes, Lyst field
stands, and such. Phase three would encompass the unique and lasting
structures, and would probably never cease. Even when the camp is
purchased, we may have years before we have to decide between a Tudor or
Gothic-style main hall, and so on.
I hope this gives you at least an idea of where we stand; our Exchequer
reports upon the status of the fund from time to time, and you'll probably
be able to monitor it through Talewinds Online (on Yahoo).
Master Morric of Trimaris
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:53:23 -0800
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
From: Lee Forgue <eilis at haas.berkeley.edu>
Subject: RE: ANST - Land funds...
At 09:52 AM 11/18/97 -0600, Dennis Grace wrote:
>Considering the number of land funds that various groups have established
>throughout the Knowne World over the past thirty-something years, does
>anyone know of any success stories?
It depends on what you mean by "success". I've been active with the West
Kingdom Land Fund since before it separately incorporated as Kingdom
Historical Trust Inc. (We wanted to be Kingdom Trust Inc., but the State
Banking Commission thought that sounded like a bank. We had to add the
word "Historical" to make them happy.)
The amount of money we have raised currently stands at $230,000. Even with
the high price of land in California, we have found several pieces of land
that were attractive, accessible, and affordable. We were even within
three days of closing escrow on one of them.
Let me tell you something about Land Funds. You learn more about zoning
than you ever want to know. (We lost the piece we were in escrow on to a
zoning/use permit problem. The neighbors didn't want a "campground" in the
same valley where the sheriff wasn't cracking down on the illegal
campground whose denizens rode around o noisy dirt bikes and shot up the
road signs.) And sanitation requirements, and use permits, and endanger
species surveys, and the cost of gravelling roads. In addition, there are
different things we want in a site we may use once a year and a site we're
going to go back to regularly. And owning *is* different from renting.
However, I feel that the West Kingdom Land Fund *is* a success. We don't
own land yet, but we are in a position where we can buy land when the right
parcel is available. However, it took a lot of work on the parts of a lot
of people! (additional information on request -- I really don't want to
regale the entire list with information of interest only to a few.)
--- eilis o'boirne
Fundraising Coordinator, KHTI
Western lurker on the Ansteorran list
PS: KHTI and the West jointly sponsor a fundraising event every Labor Day
weekend, with all profits going to KHTI (a 501(c)3 corporation). This year
we netted between $16,500 and $17,000 -- the money people are still playing
with the numbers.
From: David Everett <everettd at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: fund raising
Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 19:38:02 -0800
Holly Cochran wrote:
> Greetings from Ms. Aidan--The Outlands list has recently begun a
> discussion about site fees, etc. The underlying issue seems to be
> funding and fund raising. What are some ideas and ways that groups out
> there in the big SCA world have used to raise funds for things like
> sites, newsletters, loaner armor, etc. without raising site fees?
> Thanks, and a list of ideas will be compiled and posted back to the
> Outlands list.
> Things I had thought of and already suggested-fighter auctions, demos
> with Bashaknight, archery, etc. , participation in RenFairs (no flames
> please, its just that its done...), selling scrolls or other A&S stuff,
> A&S auctions.
> Ms. Aidan Cocrinn
> Barony of al-Barran
> Kingdom of the Outlands
Auctions are very good, as are contests with entry fees, Lunchbox
auctions, Auction a fighter for a prize tourney, buyer gets the prize.
The list is VERY long, in the kingdom
of the West on every Labor Day weekend, the Ducal Prize Tourney is held,
this event is a fundraiser for the Kingdom Historical Trust Inc. a non
profit organization whose purpose is to acquire land for a permanent site
in the central west kingdom. Over the four days of the event there a
myriad of contests, games and auctions. IIRC, last year approx. Nineteen
Thousand dollars was raised.
I think that the common theme is, at least here, is that we are happy to
give money for a good cause. But we want that choice, and being charged an
inflated price for an event so the local group can make money just sets a
lot of teeth on edge. The Bod Site Fee surcharge was very controversial
Finally take a look at your Exchequer's Handbook, It has a lot of
suggestions on fundraising in the back IIRC, (haven't been Exchequer in a
David Everett/Dimitri Sveestunov
Subject: ANST - Re: TMT - we NEED a new site!
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 98 18:13:16 MST
From: rebagoldenhaired at juno.com (Reba Hubbard)
To: trimaris at trimaris.com
CC: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG, trimaris at trimaris.com
On Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:28:58 -0500 "Alan J. Boertjens" <a-boertjens1 at ti.com> writes:
>It has been many years since the Trimarian land fund was established.
>What is its current status.
Still collecting donations as of just before Christmas. I added a small
amount to it at that time from some private fundraising as a merchant.
>What amounts are in the fund.
I recall several thousand dollars, around four or five thousand. HL Cara
>What amounts are needed to purchase a site capable of holding
>Kingdom-sized events (with adequate parking).
Here I can help. I too have spent many years researching these topics.
Suggested is a minimum of 25 acres, preferably 100. Reality says we
should begin by using the sites we do use as a guide. I do not know
about Wewa, but our more cramped sites I have been told when I asked are
from about 10 to 25 acres in size. See commentary below for more on
>What can be done to expedite activities for it to reach its goals of
>having a permanent SCA site which is owned and operated by Trimaris.
This will require everyone to make the sacrifices in time, money, even
labor to acheive. How many people not only participated, but really
tried to sell those raffle tickets that were the last big fund raiser for
the Land Fund? (I made a small effort, and found myself in third place
in numbers sold.) The responce was shameful. Entire shires sent back
the raffle books untouched, with no attempt to sell them. I kept in
touch with the project, and was saddened by the lack on intrest and
enthusiasim for this wonderful idea for so noble a cause. Note that the
first place winner, sold most of the tickets he won with, at the last
minuite, at the event the raffle was held at. I believe he had not been
told of the raffle, found out about it at the event, decided to try, and
sold the most tickets.
I like the dollar surcharge for the land fund idea, or how about adding
the three dollar nonmember surcharge to the fund. Fund raising for this
kind of project needs to become second nature, not just when its need is
brought to the forefront. And everyone must support it, from the newest
beginner to the oldest member.
Well these are my thoughts thus far,
Yours in Service to the Society,
Lady Rebecca the Goldenhaired