SCA-Grp-Types-msg - 7/3/11

Types of official local SCA groups. Shires, Baronies, Palatine Baronies, Colleges, Ships, Cantons, dominions etc.

NOTE: See also the files: new-groups-msg, sprd-out-grps-msg, Start-a-Group-art, SCA-Housholds-art, households-msg, SCA-royalty-msg, SCA-hist1-msg.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 10:18:43 +0800
From: JL Badgley <tatsushu at  gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] The SCA Grand Council and the SCA Board and the
	SCA - was Re: Census
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"
	<lochac at  lochac.sca.org>

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 8:58 AM, Svartr Ormsson <svartr at infogen.net.nz> wrote:
<<< Can you imagine it 3 judges (likely a Knight, Pelican and a Laurel) and all
those voting polls open before you can even fight in the crown finals...
With the sole decision being left to one grumpy judge making a decision on
the height of your Galliard or similar A&S(...) display before being
admitted onto the Tourney List.

It's too much for the mind to bear... >>>

As a note:

While /only/ at a baronial level, far to the north in the Far West our
Palatine Barony chooses the baronage by alternating between martial
and A&S tournaments, and so far it seems to have worked out.  We are
even discussing how to bring rapier into the mix, as the martial
tournament has, to date, been solely heavy fighting.

If anyone wants more information on how this works, we're happy to share!

-Ii Toonishinokami Katsumori, aka the Arm Candy for Her Excellency,
the Palatine Baroness, who won the last A&S tournament


Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 14:50:59 +0800
From: JL Badgley <tatsushu at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] The SCA Grand Council and the SCA Board and the
	SCA - was Re: Census
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"
	<lochac at  lochac.sca.org>

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 10:39 AM, Columb mac Diarmata
<columb.mac.diarmata at gmail.com> wrote:
<<< Do the entrants judge each-other, or perhaps all of the
ex-"excellencies by right of skill"? >>>

I love the idea of an A&S competition where entrants judge each other,
and I could go into my thoughts on that at another time.

For the baronial coronet tournaments, however, the choice is on the
previous Coronets.  They can be judges, if they wish, or they can
select judges as they deem appropriate.  Judges are expected to judge
all entries; ideally the entries are anonymous, but that is difficult
in practice.  We attempt to avoid conflicts of interest (spouses,
s.o.'s, etc.).  Usually we look for laurels and people who have
previously won the A&S tournament (by right of "arts" v. "arms").  We
try to ensure at least three judges who judge everything based on
common judging criteria--for us it is the Kingdom of the West's A&S
judging forms.  There must be at least 5 items in 4 different
categories (these are currently defined somewhat loosely, but the goal
is to go for breadth of skill).

Does that help?

The one worry I think people would have is the judging--is it fair and
equitable.  The judges themselves meet together to discuss, but each
gives their own judgment and opinion.  Scores are tallied separately.
All judges judge all items to keep the ratings consistent, and that
does tend to mean that your ability to convey information through your
documentation can be rather important.

-Ii


Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 11:04:14 -0400
From: Carol Smith <eskesmith at hotmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] in re Ostgardr, The Naming of Names -
	slightly OT

<<< Does the Province{?} of Ostgardr consist of just the five boroughs/ 
cantons?  And what is an SCA "province"? How does it vary from a  
barony or a principality? >>>

The Crown Province of Ostgardr is the founding area of the East Kingdom.  It consists of the five boroughs of New York City (Manhattan, the Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens, and Staten Island), Nassau County (western Long Island), Westchester County, Duchess County, and part of Putnam County (all above the Bronx).  We do not have baron/baroness, but viceroy/vicereine.  In all other respects, we are considered the equivalent of a barony, and are "first among equals" (my Latin is too rusty to provide the proper quote).

Devra the Baker is even older in the Society than I am, and could probably give you more information on the founding of the East Kingdom.  She was already a member when I joined for the first time.

Brekke Franksdottir


Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 12:21:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Donna Green <donnaegreen at yahoo.com>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] The Naming of Names - slightly OOP

<<< Does the Province{?} of Ostgardr consist of just the five
boroughs/cantons? And what is an SCA "province"? How does it
vary from a barony or a principality? >>>

A province is the same as a barony in terms of size and officer requirements, but it does not have a Baron and/or Baroness. They are common here in the West, particularly in the Mists. I think the Crown Province of Ostgardr (NY) and the Province of Treegirtsea (Chicago) are the only ones outside the West. 

The theory in the old days, as I understand it, is that a Baron/ess's job is to stand in for the Crown when They aren't there. But, if you live in an area where the Crown is almost always there, then you don't need a stand in, so you have a Province instead of a Barony. The Provinces in the Principality of the Mists are in the parts of the SF Bay Area where all our early kings came from. Golden Rivers (Sacramento) in the Principality of Cynagua, became a Province after having been a Barony. The specific reasons for this change are unknown to me.

Juana Isabella
West


Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 14:08:20 -0600
From: Deborah Hammons <mistressaldyth at gmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] The Naming of Names - slightly OOP

It has been my experience that Provinces are groups that either cannot or
will not have good candidates to fill the coronet (Sitting Baronage.) Beats
being a Crown Barony in some people's minds. YMMV.  I do know of one that
just wants to be the Province without the "hassle" of baronial awards and
other things.

Aldyth


Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 17:00:51 -0400
From: Saint Phlip <phlip at 99main.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] The Naming of Names - slightly OOP

That maybe your experience, but that's not the experience of the
greater NYC area. Ostgardr has been a Province with a sitting Viceroy
and Vicereine since rocks were soft ;-) Ian and Katherine recently
stepped down after having been in that position for years and years,
Alexandre and Eularia took a turn, and last I heard there were
several candidates being voted on for the job (I'm not a member of
Ostgardr, so I'm not involved in the actual voting, so I'm not sure if
anyone has been elected yet.)

However, Ostgardr is NOT a Crown Province because they lack for good
and willing candidates for the position to fill the coronet.

On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 4:08 PM, Deborah Hammons
<mistressaldyth at gmail.com> wrote:
<<< It has been my experience that Provinces are groups that either cannot or
will not have good candidates to fill the coronet (Sitting Baronage.) Beats
being a Crown Barony in some people's minds. YMMV. ?I do know of one that
just wants to be the Province without the "hassle" of baronial awards and
other things.

Aldyth >>>


Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 15:58:09 -0600
From: Deborah Hammons <mistressaldyth at gmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] The Naming of Names - slightly OOP

Out here a Province is just a Province.  A Crown Barony is different.  Got
to love interkingdom anthropology.

Aldyth


Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 18:08:51 -0400
From: "Philip Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] The Naming of Names - slightly OOP

On Thu, 2011-05-26 at 15:58 -0600, Deborah Hammons wrote:
<<< Out here a Province is just a Province.  A Crown Barony is different.  Got
to love interkingdom anthropology.

Aldyth >>>

Yes, you do. But when this all occurred, there was The SCA, which was
based in California... and basically no place else, and then groups
started forming on the East Coast, and only then did the idea of
different Kingdoms come about. And when the group in New York City
formed, for a while that was it, and they didn't even think in terms of
sub-groups... it was just the East to distinguish it from the West
(formerly known as the SCA).

So yeah, my local group is friggin' old... ;-)

Incidentally, congrats to new Viceregal-elects Guy and Johanna!

Adamantius


Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 19:18:26 -0400
From: Carol Smith <eskesmith at hotmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Ostgardr - slightly OT, and probably more
	than anyone wants to know.

I'm going to go all pedantic on you.  :)

Per East Kingdom law, page 18, section F, Baronies, "In all circumstances, The Crown Province of Ostgardr will be treated as a barony."  (Kingdom can spell "Ostgardr" correctly, but my computer won't give me the fancy fonts necessary. The "O" actually has a line through it, and the "D" is actually a "thorn".)  We are indeed the Crown Province of Ostgardr, but that's because we were
the first group of the East, and since at one time there was a law stating 
that the King had to live within 50 miles of Manhattan, we at first did not need other titular heads.  All lands not part of another group were considered Crown Lands and part of "The Crown Province", and the King was considered our titular head for a good many years.  That's probably how we became a Province, and when we began to need a head other than Their Majesties, we probably decided to distinguish ourselves from other groups by becoming "Crown Province", with viceroy/vicereine speaking for Their Majesties.

I remember when we were "the Nameless Province" - and Brigantia threatened to make it stick unless we actually chose a name.  Devra, you were there, too, no?  And you were probably there for the first Viceregal elections, as well.  (I had an attack of Real Life (TM) and was away from the SCA during this time, so Devra will have to fill in that history.  Master A, when did you come in?  It was when I was away, I know.)

Brekke


Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 12:23:00 -0400
From: Alexander Clark <alexbclark at pennswoods.net>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 61, Issue 49

On Thu, 26 May 2011 12:21:31 -0700 (PDT), Donna Green
<donnaegreen at yahoo.com> wrote:
<<< A province is the same as a barony in terms of size and officer
requirements, but it does not have a Baron and/or Baroness. They are common
here in the West, particularly in the Mists. I think the Crown Provice of
Ostgardr (NY) and the Province of Treegirtsea (Chicago) are the only ones
outside the West. >>>

Tree-Girt-Sea actually hasn't been a province for about a decade now.
After Grey Gargoyles had become a separate shire, and a couple of
other groups had grown up in the Chicago area, they all got together
in a new barony, which is named Ayreton (meaning Windy City).

Originally a "province" was a geographical area within the Berkeley
SCA, and IIUC the word was used to refer to the places where
activities took place, regardless of whether the planners, hosts, or
"Supreme Autocrats" of those activities were from that area. I think
it was around A.S. iv. to vi. that those provinces were organized,
with seneschals and maybe other provincial officers. Baronies were
introduced as the West (newly renamed) expanded beyond northern
California, and the new groups in Oregon, Washington, and Arizona
became the first baronies (but IIRC Atenveldt got changed to a
province because they didn't have a baron).

For a while, once new local groups no longer got to be kingdoms, there
was a rule that the first group in a state would be a barony, and
subsequent groups would be cantons of that barony (though this didn't
apply to California). That was why the Middle Marches, in Bowling
Green, OH, got to start as a barony, and the Cleftlands didn't, when
the founder of the Cleftlands omitted his return address from his
letter to the corporation and they couldn't conclude their
correspondence until after they had recognized the Middle Marches in
Bowling Green.
-- 
Henry/Alex


Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 14:53:17 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] The Naming of Names - slightly OOP

Stefan wrote:
<<< Which are the groups in the West which are provinces? I do remember 
hearing that most people in the Mists played at a principality level 
rather than at a baronial level, so this makes more sense now. >>>

We only do it to annoy because we know it teases:
we have the Province of the Mists
and
the Principality of the Mists.
The Province of the Mists, where the SCA began, is within the Principality of the Mists.
In the Principality of the Mists is also the Province of Southern Shores.

The Principality of the Mists has 13 active branches (two others, both Colleges, are dormant for the moment).

The other principality in the central West Kingdom is the Principality of Cynagua (a pun i believe...)
It contains the Province of Golden Rivers (Sacramento CA)
and
the Province of Silver Desert (Reno/Sparks, Nevada)

Our third Principality, that of Oertha - that is, Alaska - has, to the best of my knowledge, no provinces.
--
Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
the persona formerly known as Anahita


Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 20:53:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
To: SCA-Cooks <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] The Naming of Names - slightly OOP

Stefan wrote:
<<< Which are the groups in the West which are provinces? I do remember 
hearing that most people in the Mists played at a principality level 
rather than at a baronial level, so this makes more sense now. >>>

While i mentioned the two provinces with the Principality of the Mists: the Province of the Mists - which is mostly the East Bay (Berkeley, Oakland, Alameda, and more) - and Southern Shores - which is more or less the city of San Jose+, i neglected to mention that there are three baronies within the Principality of the Mists:
-- The Barony of Darkwood, which encompasses So. Santa Clara, Santa Cruz, San Benito and Monterey counties, including the cities of King City, Salinas, Monterey, Santa Cruz, and other tasty bits, and has three active cantons;
-- The Barony of the Westermark, which is San Mateo county, the county immediately south of "the City and County of San Francisco";
and
-- The Barony of Vinhold, which is Napa, SW Solano, and east Sonoma Counties (lotsa wine country...)

The Principality of Cynagua has two:
-- The Barony of Fettburg (San Joaquin County, including the cities of Stockton, Manteca, and Modesto);
-- The Barony of Rivenoak (the city of Chico).

The Principality of Oertha has three:
-- The Barony of Eskalya (the greater Anchorage area);
-- The Barony of Selviergard (Eagle River to the Matanuska-Susitna Valley - i'd have to look at a map to figure out where this is);
-- The Barony of Winter's Gate (Northern Alaska, primarily the Fairbanks & North Pole Interior Region) ...where Santa Claus plays...

Baronies in the West are branches/subjects of the Principalities within which they lie, if they are in a principality. Lands which are not within principalities are called The Marches and include many different kind of territories, including:
-- The Barony of Allyshia (Humboldt County in far northern California)
-- The Barony of Tarnmist (San Luis Obispo County, just north of Caid)
-- The Palatine Barony of the Far West (the Asia-Pacific Rim parts of the West Kingdom, including Korea, Japan, Okinawa, Thailand, & Guam, including a number of military bases and ships, called Strongholds)

More than most on this list ever wanted to know.
-----
Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
the persona formerly known as Anahita

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	SCA-Grp-Types-msg	7 of 7