Courts-knelng-msg - 1/29/09 Kneeling when called into an SCA Court. NOTE: See also the files: SCA-courts-nc-msg, courtesy-msg, How-to-Behave-art, SCA-courtesy-art, SCA-awards-msg, SCA-royalty-msg, The-Peerage-msg, SCA-The-Dream-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 07:41:44 -0700 From: Georgia Foster Subject: [Sca-cooks] kneeling To: Cooks within the SCA cailte typed "bless the outlands. we knee-impaired folks smile sweetly at the crown and beg a boon and remain on our feet" to which Phlip replied "but I was trying my best to honor the people honoring me" First ... sincerest contrats Phlip ... well deserved! Second, I would like to address the issue of kneeling at court. I would further like to state in advance that these are MY opinions only; what works for me. Your Mileage May Vary. Most folks who know me know that I have REALLY screwed up knees. Kneeling is a LOW quality recreational experience. I still do it because I still can. Yes, I have gotten ragged on by friends who know about the knees and are distressed that I choose to kneel anyway. I love them all dearly. I understand that they have my best interests at heart. I will continue to kneel as long as I can still perform the activity. I know that eventually there will come a time when I will not be able to (getting old sucks but it totally beats the alternative). I have been to only one court where kneeling took so long and was so painful that I was not able to stand afterward. From that court I learned that if, when kneeling, I touch one knee and keep one foot on the floor, it makes standing up afterward somewhat easier. For the worth of it, Artemisia has mostly adapted the policy (depending on who sits the current crown of course) that those who are unable to kneel, stand. There is generally no need to beg boon of the crown to do so (though it is polite to do so anyway). Malkin Otherhill Artemisia Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 10:02:47 -0500 From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] kneeling To: Cooks within the SCA On Jan 7, 2008, at 9:41 AM, Georgia Foster wrote: > Most folks who know me know that I have REALLY screwed up knees. > Kneeling is a LOW quality recreational experience. I still do it > because I still can. And for those that can, and can't imagine it being any other way at the moment, I expect it may take on a whole new importance to them when they can't. > Yes, I have gotten ragged on by friends who know about the knees and > are distressed that I choose to kneel anyway. I love them all > dearly. I understand that they have my best interests at heart. I > will continue to kneel as long as I can still perform the activity. > > I know that eventually there will come a time when I will not be > able to (getting old sucks but it totally beats the alternative). I > have been to only one court where kneeling took so long and was so > painful that I was not able to stand afterward. From that court I > learned that if, when kneeling, I touch one knee and keep one foot > on the floor, it makes standing up afterward somewhat easier. For the past few years I've brought a walking staff and a little, round, leather-covered cushion to events. One knee on the cushion on the floor, leaning in the staff on the same side as the cushion, the other knee up with the foot on the floor. > For the worth of it, Artemisia has mostly adapted the policy > (depending on who sits the current crown of course) that those who > are unable to kneel, stand. There is generally no need to beg boon > of the crown to do so (though it is polite to do so anyway). Most of what I've seen in the East suggests there is no policy; it just traditional for those brought into court to kneel, and for the most part, if they cannot, it is equally traditional for the Crown not to notice or comment on it. And those who for any reason cannot kneel, there's always the option of bowing (essentially to keep one's head lower than those of the Crowns), and I sometimes see people standing on the very edge of groups to make their non-conformity less blatant, and I sometimes see people off to one side, hanging on for dear life to the edge of a stage by their fingertips. Once, I knelt (it was a Viceregal Court, and quite informal) and discovered the hard way that I was wearing a filamore and kneeling on a layer of small, sharp stones. "Ehhrrmmm. Permission to rise, your Excellencies? Please?" Adamantius (who also could not get up when awarded the Manche, subsequently hauled to his feet by a different King -- but he also knew I was cooking his Coronation feast) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 09:09:42 -0600 From: Michael Gunter Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] kneeling To: Cooks within the SCA Basically, if the person coming into The Presence shows respect and courtesy and simply states, "I'm sorry Your Majesties, but my knees don't allow me to kneel." the Crown will allow the person to stand. No big deal. Historically, looking at period illustrations and such, kneeling was performed on one knee. Look at the manuscripts, for any Earthly ruler a persone knelt on one knee and only went to two knees before any unEarthly being such as a Saint or Mary or Jesus or such. So, when called into court, I kneel on one knee as proper. Gunthar [Now Duke Gunthar - Stefan] Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:53:54 -0500 From: "Barbara Benson" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] kneeling To: "Cooks within the SCA" > Yes, I have gotten ragged on by friends who know about the knees > and are distressed that I choose to kneel anyway. I love them all > dearly. I understand that they have my best interests at heart. I > will continue to kneel as long as I can still perform the activity. At my elevation ceremony I insisted on kneeling when I took my oath of fealty. I had warned the Crown ahead of time that, come hell or highwater I was going to kneel. But even at the last minute he reminded me that I need not kneel. This is funny only if you know I was 8 months pregnant at the time. And not cute basketball strapped to the stick figure stomach pregnant. With my voluminous ropa made for the occasion I believe the analogy was made to "a majestic ship setting sail" as I waddled down the aisle. I made it down and up, missing head butting the sword of state by scant inches. But I kneeled and I would have regretted it for life if I had not. -- Serena da Riva Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 08:10:55 -0800 From: "Laura C. Minnick" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] kneeling To: Cooks within the SCA Interesting conversation... I knelt at my elevation. And yes, I needed help getting up. Fortunately I had James on one side and my friend Vesta (lady fighter with much musklz ;-)) to help me up. Another thing that helped is that there was a little low bench to kneel on, and it was easier to get up from that then it would have been from the usual pillow. At last 12th Night, however, I was miserable. I was on retinue and on the wardrobe team, and with all the thank-you's, I was up and down a lot. Amalric made a point of coming down from the dais to help me up. (I've never had a King do that before, and I was deeply honored that he did so.) After a few though, I stopped kneeling and simply stood to the back of the group. I don't think anyone minded. 'Lainie Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:13:07 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Christiane Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Kneeling To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Because I have to spend a lot of time on my knees during some dance routines (Berber walking, floorwork, etc.), I've found a pair of good- quality foam sport kneepads are invaluable. Now that would be pretty funny to drag someone up there for an award and present them with a pair of kneepads. "Here. Put these on, you'll need 'em!" ;-) Gianotta Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 18:26:29 EST From: Bronwynmgn at aol.com Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] kneeling To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org jo_foster81 at hotmail.com writes: <> The East does not require it either if one is unable. Depending on the king, it is more or less easy to let them know you can't. When I was pregnant with my son and called up for my vigil and then my Laureling, the King told me in no uncertain terms, without my even asking, that I was NOT PERMITTED to kneel due to my condition. Which was kind of annoying, since I was still perfectly capable of it at the time. The East also owns (and I know this for certain because I helped make it) a padded kneeling bench with raised handles on the sides, akin to a gardener's bench. It doesn't come out all that often, though, as it is extremely Norse/Viking in style and doesn't necessarily fit in with the theme of all reigns. Brangwayna Morgan Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 22:56:13 -0500 From: Robin Carroll-Mann Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] kneeling To: Cooks within the SCA Audrey Bergeron-Morin wrote: > Would you happen to have a picture of this [kneeling bench]? It seems like an > extremely interesting idea... There is a small picture of the kneeling bench on the East Kingdom website: http://chamberlain.eastkingdom.org/furniture.html (Scroll to the bottom -- it's #217) -- Brighid ni Chiarain Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 05:26:23 -0700 From: "Georgia Foster" Subject: [Sca-cooks] OT kneeling benches To: "Cooks within the SCA" The pattern he has is for a foot stool that he made for his parents. The idea of a kneeler is a period thing (check Catholic stuff). The housemates rendition is almost exactly like one seen in a period painting. I will find the painting and include that information when the project is complete. The project itself is already in motion. It will involve woodwork in the construction, wood burning in the decoration and needlecraft in the comfort enhancement. It will NOT be an A&S project at this point but will involve the labors of several Shire Members. The several of us are actually pretty excited about it. updates as they happen .... Malkin Otherhill Artemisia Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 10:40:43 -0700 From: "Kathleen A Roberts" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Kneeling To: Christiane , Cooks within the SCA Christiane wrote: > Now that would be pretty funny to drag someone up there > for an award and present them with a paid of kneepads. > "Here. Put these on, you'll need 'em!" ;-) when my late student margherita was given her laurel, i gifted her a pair of kneepads i embroidered with laurel wreathes. she, like me, always forgot them for ceremonies. 8) cailte Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:01:41 EST From: Bronwynmgn at aol.com Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] kneeling To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org audreybmorin at gmail.com writes: <> I don't have a picture of the completed bench personally, but there is one on the East Kingdom website in the Chamberlain's section under furniture. Scroll all the way down to the bottom of the list; for some reason it is listed as "Tyger bench". I did the embroidery on the cushion. http://www.eastkingdom.org/chamberlain/furniture.html Brangwayna Morgan Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 19:06:52 EST From: Bronwynmgn at aol.com Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] kneeling benches To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org StefanliRous at austin.rr.com writes: <> As far as the one for the East, I don't know if the overall pattern is period or not. It was the work of three people - I did the embroidery, which is wool on linen using period stitches (primarily outline/stem and split stitch as I recall) and colors which were noted as popular on Norse things where the color could be identified. The beast is the Eastern Tyger modified to look more like one of the more famous Norse gripping beast carvings (dang, can't remember which one) with twining foliage around it. Another person did the shaping of the pieces, and I do not know what his inspiration was. The third did the carving on the end pieces which were also based on extant Norse artwork. Brangwayna Morgan Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 22:30:03 EST From: Bronwynmgn at aol.com Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] kneeling benches To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org dephelps at embarqmail.com writes: <> I was hoping to avoid that question... It was padded with a couple of sheets of closed cell foam left over from armor making :-) Seems nobody remembered that it needed to be padded before we all got together at Pennsic to assemble it and we didn't have anything else available. It also made it easy to keep the padding in place when the fabric was put over it. Brangwayna Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 23:44:55 -0600 From: "Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] kneeling benches To: "Cooks within the SCA" Brangwayna; Thank you-that actually sounds like an excellent padding solution, IMO. Sturdy and comfortable. And, if the modern part is where you can't see it, no one knows unless you tell them, right? That's the "creative" part of creative anachronism. Again, my opinion. Wool would get really smelly after a while, anyway; at least it would down here in Trimaris, where it is both hot and humid. I can just see it now, someone is called into court and can't figure out why, since they're upwind from the fighters, it smells like a zoo... (;-p Isabella Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 18:08:49 -0800 From: "Wanda Pease" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] knee pads To: "Cooks within the SCA" I've seen the East Kingdom kneeler and envied it until there was a spate of comments about how it doesn't stay together quite the way they had planned. I love ... loved kneeling. I can still do it, but it's the getting up part that makes me think of Disney's "Dance of the Hours" from Fantasia. The knees work fine going down, they can even stand solid cement or pine cones for a short period of time. But once that period of time is over, so is any hope of rising in a gentile fashion. I've tried knee pads and they do help the comfort level. Unfortunately I think they actually make it harder to get up again. I even tried one of those Orange (of course) folding stools that 'Lanie has around here, but it was more of a nuisance than a help. The whole myth about knights needing a crane to lift them onto their Tourney Horses was a misprint for 40lb Houpes and full Tudor (suction here) skirt risings :-> Regina, who is so glad she actually got the Danglies before they would have had to drag in the mud on the uptake) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:38:29 EST From: Bronwynmgn at aol.com Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] knee pads To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org wandap at hevanet.com writes: <> The makers certainly have not been notified that there are any such issues with it (we'd be happy to address them if there are) and it is listed as being in "mint condition" on the website, which does not suggest that there are any such issues with it. Our names are on a plaque on it; if it needs work, someone should contact us about it. All three of us are still active in the East. A single post to SCA-East looking for us by name should take care of it. I put a lot of work into that embroidery and my colleagues into the woodwork; I don't appreciate the thought that it will be left in storage because somebody is too lazy to let us know that it needs fixed, and my colleagues wouldn't either. Brangwayna Morgan Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:03:29 -0800 From: "Wanda Pease" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] knee pads To: "Cooks within the SCA" In a cooking way... Cool Beans! I was at Pennsic Court 33 with some of the other "elders" when a particularly long Laurelling ceremony took place. The conferee was a lovely young thing. The young male barbarian of her guard became less so as the ceremony dragged on. I told him I'd bite him in a place he wouldn't want to explain if he didn't get the (expletive deleted) out of my line of view! That kneeler looked fantastic and would give me just enough height and place to push down on to continue to kneel for a few more years. Regina Romsey > A single post to SCA-East looking for us by name should take care of it. > I put a lot of work into that embroidery and my colleagues into the > woodwork; I don't appreciate the thought that it will be left in storage because > somebody is too lazy to let us know that it needs fixed, and my colleagues > wouldn't either. > > Brangwayna Morgan Edited by Mark S,. Harris Court-knelng-msg Page 9 of 9