waterbearing-msg - 12/10/09 Comments and suggestions for waterbearing and organizing waterbearing for fighters at SCA tournaments and melees. Water and beverage distribution at events. NOTE: See also the files: On-Rehydration-art, waterbearing-art, WB-Checklist-art, event-ideas-msg, evnt-stewards-msg, demos-msg, privvies-msg, evnt-stwd-cltn-art, tourn-ideas-msg, marshalling-msg, melee-tactics-art. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 19:11:14 MST From: MGreene at mpan.com Subject: ANST - Waterbearer supplies To: , ansteorra at ansteorra.org Lady Giovanna Lena Caronna inquired: Also, if anyone has access to the flexible line that goes into the gallon milk jugs for water-bearing. I would greatly appreciate the donation. I believe what Lady Giovanna is referring to the *food-grade* polyvinyl hose. With summer is coming, this is a good time for Waterbearer reminders. Tubing can be foundrolled in boxes, in the plumbing section of most hardware stores and comes in various thickness's. It's used to connect hoses between refrigeration units and soda machines. Waterbearers have found the 3/8th in. thickness to work best for most fighter helmets. Some have used fish tank hoses in past, but they tend to collapse on use. Be sure to purchase the clear vinyl instead of the stiffer white vinyl. The hose can be reused several times if cleaned in hot water and soaked in Clorox bleach, and rinsed again thoroughly . You can also buy tubing wholesale from distributors, but you have to purchase the whole box or more, and must have a sales tax id number. But, it can be done. Few years ago, kingdoms started switching to the bottle pop-tops for our 2-liter containers, for sanitation reasons. I save mine off the tops of water bottles purchases at store, clean them and pass them along to waterbearers. But, some fighter helmets are not designed with a large opening to squirt the water through, so those fighters wish to continue using the water hoses; anything to get water. During these summer months, populace, please be sure to save and clean your water & milk gallon and 2-liter soda bottles. Also, save your water pop-tops from water and sport drinks, clean them as well. Donate these items to your branch Waterbearers. It will ensure there are plenty of supplies for all our hot Ansteorran events. Thanks, Mistress Hillary Greenslade (former Kingdom Waterbearer, with the grey hairs and bad back to prove it!) To: spca-wascaerfrig at egroups.com Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:00:04 EDT From: PBLoomis at aol.com Subject: Re: [spca-wascaerfrig] Can anyone help me? In a message dated 4/17/00 00:13:15 EST, duchessa at juno.com writes: > How are the water jugs configured/made for the fighters to drink on > the field while keeping some sort of infection control? I plan on helping > waterbear at Baron"s War next month but I need the water jugs. Proper ones are squirt bottles made by Nalgene, where you squeeze the bottle to eject a thin stream. I cannot get them at a sports store. Think you have to go to a chemistry lab supply house. Scotti To: spca-wascaerfrig at egroups.com Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 08:20:29 EDT From: Elysant at aol.com Subject: Re: [spca-wascaerfrig] Can anyone help me? > > Hi, How are the water jugs configured/made for the fighters to drink on > > the field while keeping some sort of infection control? I plan on helping > > waterbare at Baron"s War next month but I need the water jugs. (snip) > I recently got several messages detailing how they currently are > requesting water bearer bottles be constructed in Ansteorra. (snip) I am a waterbearerer for ConFed and served as such last year at Pennsic. We picked up the bottles (which were pre-filled for us) from the pick-up point on the field. 2 liter waterbottles were used. I do not know if they were rinsed with anything prior to filling. On the field, we inserted a long piece of plastic bendable tubing into the bottle, and in this way could insert the end of it through the front face guard grill of the fighters so they could drink. It isn't as far as I've seen standard practice to change these "straws" between fighters. We also added "Gatorade" to some of the bottles so the fighters had a choice of beverage. Some of the bottles were only used for wetting rags for the fighters to cool themselves down with. Such bottles could be differentiated from those with water to drink by a coloured tape on the handle Also, bottled water could be used if you're worried the water put into the bottles from a faucet might be tainted or tastes nasty, or if you are unsure that the bottles have been rinsed out adequately. Elysant From: "Lord Oakrock©" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Water Bearer Bottles Date: 28 Sep 2001 22:24:02 GMT Beth They use clear plastic tubing. About 1/4" interior dia. Then drill a hole in the cap the same size as the outer dia. You can find this type of tubing at an aquarium store and some large auto supply stores. It would be used in RV water systems or large fish tanks. James "Beth" wrote > A number of years ago (looking at the calendar it shows eight > years...ugh), I lived in Atenveldt and attended Estrella X. At that war > I saw the water bearers with bottles that had been made from 2-liter > bottles and tubing of some kind. Now that mundane life has settled > enough to permit me to return to the current middle ages, I find my > house going through several 3-liter bottles (things bigger in texas I > guess ;) ). I would like to convert these into the type of bottles that > I saw at the war, but have as yet not been able to find info on doing > this. I want to be sure that the tubing can be secured to the hole that > would be put in the center of the cover, but it must remain safe for the > fighters to drink the water from. > > Any help would be greatly appreciated. > Beth From: "Lord Oakrock©" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Water Bearer Bottles Date: 28 Sep 2001 23:32:06 GMT Some put a couple of raps of duct tape above the cape to keep it from being pushed to far in but not under the cap. They all pull out if you drop the bottle. As long as you make the hole close to or the same as the outer diameter of the tubing it will stay put. Some of the fabric bags have Velcro on the shoulder strap the holds the tubs up and lessen the chance they would get in the dirt. I have seen Velcro on the tube and it raped around the tube and sewn on the strap. These are all observations from inside a helm, in between battles. the product is simple but always appreciated. From: Judith M Phillips Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Water Bearer Bottles Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 00:51:44 GMT On Fri, 28 Sep 2001 21:28:28 GMT, Beth wrote: > A number of years ago (looking at the calendar it shows eight > years...ugh), I lived in Atenveldt and attended Estrella X. At that war > I saw the water bearers with bottles that had been made from 2-liter > bottles and tubing of some kind. Now that mundane life has settled > enough to permit me to return to the current middle ages, I find my > house going through several 3-liter bottles (things bigger in texas I > guess ;) ). I would like to convert these into the type of bottles that > I saw at the war, but have as yet not been able to find info on doing > this. I want to be sure that the tubing can be secured to the hole that > would be put in the center of the cover, but it must remain safe for the > fighters to drink the water from. It's not quite what you're asking about, but one gallon jugs work as well; the tubing can be threaded down into the handle. It stays pretty stable. Adelais From: "Dennis O'Connor" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Water Bearer Bottles Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 19:04:43 -0700 I've water-born with the 2 2-liter bottles (one water, one dilute Gatorade) and I'm not sure 3-liters would be a good choice, might be too much bulk and/or weight. But you can try. A sling that goes over the neck and hangs down with a pocket for a bottle on each side is a handy thing for this work, BTW. Easy to make too, just sew together 3 cloth rectangles. -- Dennis O'Connor dmoc at primenet.com We don't become a rabid dog to destroy a rabid dog. From: "Sally Burnell" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Water Bearer Bottles Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 22:39:50 -0400 There was some talk this past Pennsic of developing what they were calling "non-contact" water-bearing, so there are apparently some changes in store for how we are going to do it. I guess there have been some concerns about some illnesses which could be passed by several thousand people all drinking out of the same bottle (even though we use these plastic tubes stuck down into the bottles), such as Hepatitis, Meningitis and other stuff. At Pennsic, when we go to get refills for our bottles, we take those plastic tubes out and put them in a disinfecting solution and then get fresh bottles with freshly disinfected tubes in them. Still, the Chirurgeonate did express some concern about certain illnesses which could theoretically be passed, so I think there is something in the works to make water-bearing less contact oriented. At any rate, what we've been doing for so long now is to take plastic gallon jugs and fill them with water or a 50-50 solution of water and gatorade, and then stick plastic tubing down inside the handle to make it easier for fighters to be able to get a swig of fluid through their helms. Seems to work just fine, and honestly, I don't know where they get that plastic tubing stuff. THLady Saradwen Ariandalen Marche of Gwyntarian (Akron/Kent, OH) Midrealm From: db Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Water Bearer Bottles Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 12:13:20 -0700 There is a specific type of silicone adhesive available for aquarium use made by GE and available at most larger hardware stores.. It seems that some expensive exotic fish are _very_ touchy when it comes to such things (far more so than humans). I would have no qualms about drinking from a hose glued into a bottle with that. Of course, you would have to let it dry for a few days first to get all traces of the solvent out of it. db From: db Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Water Bearer Bottles Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 12:21:38 -0700 My suggestion from some time back for sanitary water tubes is to have a plastic tube that is just the right size for a regular drinking straw to fit tightly into. Each fighter gets a drink from a new straw, the old one gets tossed into a bag. If plastic straws are used, they can be disinfected in bleach water and reused. If paper is used, it is biodegradable. For the particularly squeamish, a simple one way valve could be incorporated into the system. But I don't personally see that as much of a problem. Another idea is that each fighter carry a leather water flask as part of his own gear (they can have rubber or plastic bladders in them). Water bearers would then fill up flasks through an open lid, and the only "unsanitary" part would be the tube on each fighters own flask. db From: Erin-Joi Collins McNeal Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Water Bearer Bottles Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 16:29:22 -0400 Organization: Emory University I have been watching this thread with professional interest. I must put my work out of my mind when I work a battle. (I am a chirurgeon, but part of that is water bearing) My preference is for the non-contact version. Here are my reasons... I work with enteric pathogens. These are viruses and other pathogens which cause acute gastroenteritis (read: diarrhea and vomiting). Although the primary mode of transmission is fecal-oral (poor hand washing), most of these pathogens are carried in other gastric secretions as well. Vomitus is highly infectious; saliva is infectious though not as highly. So sharing a straw/tube etc. even with a one way valve is one good way to spread pathogens. Other pathogens spread through oral secretions include the common cold. I realize it will take a while before we find appropriate non-contact bottles. The bottles bought for Pennsic which looked wonderful had a lousy flow rate. They just didn't work. I prefer the water bottles with the sports tops. As long as the fighters don't put the top in their mouths they stay somewhat sanitary. Additionally the waterbearers who refill the bottles must have clean hands to screw the lids on after refilling. I guess this explains why I usually stay out of conversations like this... Tabitha/Master Chirurgeon Erin-Joi/Research Specialist, Emory School of Public Health From: Beth Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Water Bearer Bottles Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 22:22:05 GMT db wrote: > My suggestion from some time back for sanitary water tubes is to have a plastic > tube that is just the right size for a regular drinking straw to fit tightly > into. Each fighter gets a drink from a new straw, the old one gets tossed into > a bag. If plastic straws are used, they can be disinfected in bleach water and > reused. If paper is used, it is biodegradable. For the particularly squeamish, > a simple one way valve could be incorporated into the system. But I don't > personally see that as much of a problem. > Another idea is that each fighter carry a leather water flask as part of his own > gear (they can have rubber or plastic bladders in them). Water bearers would > then fill up flasks through an open lid, and the only "unsanitary" part would > be the tube on each fighters own flask. > > db I like the idea of the straws inside the tube. The one way valve sounds great, where would I look for something like that? I would like this project to be something that both the kingdoms that I am offering these to can use and not have to replace or modify in the near future. So if there are things that can be worked out of the current system beforehand, it would be a great help. I have not purchased the supplies for this yet. I want to have a good idea of what to do, before spending money on something that might need changing. I think when I venture to buy the tubing, I'll bring a piece of a straw with me to be sure it will fit right. Thank you for your insights into this. Beth From: db Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Water Bearer Bottles Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 08:18:46 -0700 Did a bit of looking about. Seems the most likely source for one way valves is an aquarium supply store. There is a small one way valve made to keep water from backing up into the air pump. They cost a couple of bucks and are sized to fit into plastic tubing. Should work. db From: "Rev. Mike Martin" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Water Bearer Bottles Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:52:23 GMT Stefan li Rous wrote: > There have been some wonderful bits of info and suggestions given > here. Many of these talk about using plastic tubes. I believe that > many kingdoms are getting away from these and going toward the caps > with the little plugs that you pull out (they are captive to the caps) > and then easily squirt through a face grill. The advantage is that Sorry, I think you meant to say "... easily soak the fighter because they can't get the stream aimed at their mouth through a bar grill without it splashing all over the place..." and we won't even mention the guys will full face helms. > unlike the tube, there is no transfer of any diseases from one fighter > to the next. I have seen several fighters take their own water bottle (with straw) and mark it with a sharpie "This belongs to FOO who is SICK, do NOT use this unless YOU want to be SICK too!" and nobody touched em... they didn't drink out of any other bottle... all was well. Hrothgar -- Rev. Mike Martin Lord Hrothgar the Smith http://members.home.net/mmartin139/ scribere jussit amor Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] water-symbols Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:31:08 -0600 From: Charlene Charette To: CAC wrote: > Can someone provide a link where I can find the water-bearing symbol > for our group? Being computer illiterate, I can't seem to find it on > the SCA site. Thank you. Go to: http://www.goldenstag.net/MiscSCA/OfficerBadges.htm Scroll down to the "water bearers" badge - it's white & blue and looks like a drop of water. Warning: this page is graphics intensive and took awhile to load. --Perronnelle Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] water-symbols Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 22:07:42 -0600 From: "Chiara" To: The new webminister of the society has his own personal site of these: http://www.eastkingdom.org/web/graphics.html Sincerely, Franchesca Havas McKinney, Texas From: Lou Burgin [AMBERLEA at peoplepc.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 5:42 PM To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] WATER & GATORADE I am going to add my 2 cents here. I have done a lot of research and taught many classes on the care and feeding of the fighter. In a normally healthy human, water is all you need to replace. The trouble is getting the to drink plain water. Sports drinks are expensive, and should be served 1/2 strength to replace the water that the body needs. I also recommend lemonade. It has the citrus to help the body maintain electrolyte balance, is mostly water, sugar for energy, and the koolaid variety is very inexpensive. H.E. AmberLea From: Morgan Cain (Ansteorra) [morgancain at earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 11:32 PM To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] WATER & GATORADE Alina asked: > Stupid question but I'll ask anyway. > > Why gatorade? As a very experienced waterbearer and former fighter, I will echo what many people have said: it's the mixture of sugar, salt, and minerals, particularly potassium, in Gatorade, Powerade, and the other "sports drinks" that have made them de rigeur for waterbearing. If you don't like the taste of Gatorade, don't drink it. Or try other flavours; I think lemon-lime and orange are the easiest to get in the large, cheap quantities, which is why people tend to use those. Personally, the only one I can tolerate at all is Lemon Ice; all the rest are too nasty to choke down, even if I probably need it. As people have said, make the stuff half-strength. When fighters are on the field and drinking a lot, they need the water more, and full-strength can give them too many of the minerals etc. Yes, as some people pointed out, there are those who like to drink pickle juice, so don't dump it out when pulling the pickles for snacks. Keep it in the jar so it's easy to find when someone comes looking. Some people prefer sekanjabin, which is basically a syrup of vinegar and sugar and mint, but most fighters want to drink the stuff with potassium and other minerals. Of course, you should also have solid forms such as pretzels, oranges, pickles, and if you have the funds, melon and grapes kept on ice will be VERY popular if the sun and temperature are both up. Be sure to have plenty of water, too! I know that sounds obvious, but at some sites with poor plumbing, you have to bring in enough fresh water to keep everybody going. Not just the fighters, be sure the waterbearers water the marshalls - and themselves! I've taught people, especially children, that the rule is one-to-three (easy to remember!) - you take one drink for every three people who get a drink from you. And always drink before you put up the jugs, for example if there is a "waterbearers in" during a melee, when you come off the field, get another swing. It's one thing when the fighters go down from the heat - it's embarrassing when the waterbearers do it. ---= Morgan From: L T [ldeerslayer at yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 11:24 AM To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org Subject: [Ansteorra] Dehydration Looking briefly on the web...(though not that everything you read on the web is true...) on sports medicine sites current theory seems to be: in regards to dehydration: Water is fine for 1 hour or under of exercise after that you need to alternate an electolyte solution and water or take in electrolytes with your water (i.e. pickles, oranges, etc) apparently when the electolytes are out of balance our bodies do not absorb the water the way they should. They also suggest that caffine and alcohol (or any diaretic) intake should be stopped 24 hours before heavy exercise.... (like I see THAT happening...especially at war... ;) since those promote dehydration... Potassium toxicity is rare even amongst the most active of atheletes. It does happen though...especially in reaction to some medications and risk increases if you have any impairment of the kidneys (i.e. kidney disease, alcohol consumption...etc) it's symptoms are: muscle fatigue and cardiac arrythmia... Lorraine From: Tump Laird [tlaird at satx.rr.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 5:08 PM To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org Subject: [Ansteorra] dehydration-Gatorade-water It is difficult to get a lot of fighters to do this, but hydration BEFORE the fighting starts is most important. I start about 2 hours before the first battle and slowly drink 2-3 quarts, half Gatorade and half water, and drink every time the water bearers come on the field. (I am usually dehydrated from the previous nights revel, as well as not being in the best physical condition-read fat and 42) If I maintain this ritual, I can fight in all the battles, all day long. If I don't, I fall out of the first, and will be combat ineffective for the rest. Push the liquids on the fighters early. At Gulf War I got reminded, even ordered by one unit commander to drink plenty before the battles, especially the resurrection ones. If you feel a little bloated, and need to privy at least once every hour, then you might just have enough. I have learned that lesson the hard way more than once when I was in the infantry. Botolf the Dane Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 20:36:21 -0400 From: johnna holloway To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: [Sca-cooks] food-grade water hose? Call your local health department and ask if they have a source. Or Google search under the following: "food grade" plastic water hose found several... they aren't cheap-- Actually I would call the RV shops in the area and talk to them. You need these sorts of hoses for loading drinking water when refilling the tanks on trailers and RV units. Johnna Holloway Johnnae llyn Lewis jenne at fiedlerfamily.net wrote:> Help?> > We have a bunch of people complaining that if we use a regular hose to > bring water to the field for our big events, it tastes 'off' and funny. > So, where can we get food-grade hoses (over 150 feet worth)? > -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa To: Sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 14:06:55 -0400 From: Morgana Abbey Subject: [Sca-cooks] food-grade water hoses Alternative: rather than running about for such a hose, get an inline water filter and add that into your water supply set-up. We've been using this set-up at Pennsic and various outdoor events for several years. Just be careful to get a filter with an opaque housing or make a "cozy" for it. Morgana From: "Draco Somnus" To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 08:47:45 GMT Subject: [Sca-cooks] marriage proposals A million years ago, when I was a waterbearer, the joke was that we could tell when the temp went over triple digits. Our number of proposals inclined sharply. Lann DracoSomnus Studios Weaving Spinning and Costuming Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 09:04:43 -0500 (CDT) From: "Pixel, Goddess and Queen" To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] marriage proposals > According to my girls, this is still true. Nothing quite like a sweaty > fighter and a pretty teenaged waterbearer with huge... waterbottles. ;-D) > > 'Lainie Most definitely. And you don't need to be pretty, teenaged, or female to get a proposal when it's hot enough. I heard at least one fighter propose to the guy carrying the bowl of pickles, one year. Margaret Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:43:24 -0400 From: "Phlip" Subject: [Sca-cooks] Sugar free sports drink alternative To: , "SCA-Cooks" , Cc: EKCooksGuild at yahoogroups.com, Trimariscookslist at yahoogroups.com, mk-cooks at midrealm.org, SCAFoodandFeasts at yahoogroups.com To bring all interested parties up to speed, the recipe following is one I rec'd from Ostgardr List a couple days ago. It was developed by Sir Omarad of the Middle Kingdom, and I forwarded it on to Chirurgeon's List, to get comments, and as a heads up if people are going to be using it. The important point is that some people are allergic or sensitive to alternative sweeteners, so I attempted to find out what the sweetener was in Sugar Free Kool-Aid, and got the following reply from Kraft Foods: "Kool-Aid mixed drink is available in a variety of flavors and several forms including unsweetened, presweetened with sugar and presweetened with NutraSweet . " The recipe appears to be a good one (understanding, I'll drink water- dislike artificial flavors, no matter how they're sweetened), and I think that it might be quite useful to our diabetics, as well as others, if they modify it to use the unsweetened Kool-Aid and the sweetener of their choice. Please, though, make absolutely sure that if you use this, that the recipients are aware that you're using an artificial sweetener, and which one- we don't need fighters dropping on the field in anaphalactic shock!!!! Helen, please pass this information back to Sir Omarad so that he is reminded to tell people that they're getting an artificial sweetener. And, please, always remember, that we dilute Gatorade to 50% strength, because WATER is the most important ingredient. > A recipe for home-made sugar-free Gatorade substitute came over another list > this morning, credited to Sir Omarad of the Middle Kingdom. > -Helen/Aidan > >> "I had researched sugar free sports drinks before and had come up with a lot >> of recipes which all had a lot in common. This is the esiest I can find and >> very closely resembles commercial gatorade/powerade without the sugar. The >> Potassium can also be found in salt substitutes at the grocery store or >> Potassium tablets can usually be found at any vitamin isle. Even Wal-mart >> carries them. >> >> SUGAR-FREE "SPORTS DRINK" >> 1 packet or container sugar-free drink mix like Kool-aid (enough to make 2 >> qts) >> 1/4 tsp table salt (sodium chloride) >> 4 potassium tablets (99 mg each) or salt sub. equivalent >> 2 quarts water >> >> Take about 1/4 cup of the water and put in a cup with the potassium tablets. >> Heat in the microwave until the water gets close to boiling. Stir to >> dissolve the tablets. Add the salt and stir. >> Put the drink mix in a pitcher, add water, and stir until the drink mix is >> dissolved. Add the salt/potassium solution and mix thoroughly. Chill. >> Per 8-oz serving: >> 5 cal, about 75 mg sodium, 50 mg potassium. >> To compare to other drinks: >> -------------- Sodium ----- Potassium >> Gatorade:----- 110 mg ------- 30 mg >> All Sport:----- 55 mg ------- 50 mg >> PowerAde:----- 55 mg ------- 30 mg" Saint Phlip, CoD Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:38:13 -0400 From: "Phlip" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: Sugar free sports drink alternative To: "Cooks within the SCA" > Have you tasted halved Gatorade? It's nasty. It's nasty, no matter what strength you have it. When it starts tasting good, you KNOW you're dehydrated. > I have understood that you do not have to halve the Gatorade. Only > reason is if you are trying to save money. Unfortunately, that is NOT the case. Gatorade, as it stands, provides too much sugar and minerals. What your body is craving is water, pure and simple. Unfortunately, plain water is not something many people will drink willingly- they've been brought up to believe that sugary sweet flavored stuff tastes good, so that's what they think they want when they're thirsty. And, contrary to the school of opinion that thinks that a shortage of electrolytes can lead to other problems, the circumstances under which electrolyte shortage have been reported are far more extreme than our fighters experience- like, towards the end of a hot summer's marathon- and even then, most of the runners need water, rather than the electrolytes. A balanced diet, plenty of water, and no hangover, with reasonably decent physical condition are basically all our fighters need to battle to their heart's content. If you were to come through Point when we're having a run on heat stress victims, you'll discover, if you ask them, that every last one of them, fighter or spectator, or simple passers by has shorted themselves on at least one, and frequently more, of those things. You're fine, generally, doing that sort of thing, if you don't additionally stress your body with high unaccustomed environmental heat and lots of unaccustomed exercise, but you'll be a patient if you don't take care of yourself- and water is frequently the key. > And there is a reason for having the water available along with the > sports drink. Yep. Diabetics, and people like me who don't like sugared drinks. > So I do not understand your statements reasoning. Study the topic, as I have, and you might. > I'm checking into a product by the makers of Emer'gen-C. It contains no > sugars but I'm looking into what is the substitute. > > Lyse > > -----Original Message----- > And, please, always remember, that we dilute Gatorade to 50% strength, > because WATER is the most important ingredient. Saint Phlip, CoD Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 02:01:28 -0400 From: John Kemker Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: Sugar free sports drink alternative To: Cooks within the SCA otsisto wrote: > I'm checking into a product by the makers of Emer'gen-C. It contains no > sugars but I'm looking into what is the substitute. > > Lyse Alacer (http://www.alacercorp.com) Electro-MIX has no sugars or substitutes, unless you consider Chromium aspartate the substitute. It has no warning concerning "Phenylketonurics" or other phenylalanine warnings. I've used it. Have a box sitting right here on my desk. It's not sweet at all. It's tart. Puckery. Very satisfying when I'm extremely thirsty and need to rehydrate quickly. As a diabetic, it's been my "sports drink" of choice. Their web site says the ingredients are "Citric Acid, Potassium Bicarbonate, Calcium, Magnesium and Potassium Carbonates, Malic Acid, Magnesium hydroxide, Manganese Gluconate, Chromium Aspartate, Natural Flavors." --Cian Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:39:35 -0700 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sugar free sports drink alternative To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org I only drink Gatorade or its analogs when i actually *need* it. It isn't meant to be an ordinary beverage, but to be drunk after great physical exertion or in a situation with extreme (and i mean extreme) heat or in which one has been perspiring excessively (and that's not just a question of personal comfort). Folks who think it tastes nasty have no need of it, not that it's some kind of option. If Gatorade tastes bad, you should be drinking water or juice, not Gatorade. When Gatorade tastes good or innocuous, that's when you may actually need it. Merely being in a situation that's unpleasantly hot or causing you to perspire may not actually be extreme enough to cause you to *need* Gatorade. You may be uncomfortable, but you may be fine. I have actually needed Gatorade or its analog a few times. Until recently i have been an actor at Renaissance fairs in California, both the big mother-of-all-fairs, and small fairs, and small fairs in Nevada. We are always careful to keep hydrated - we just drink water or lemonade (ok, some others drink alcohol to excess, but that's not me). At "the big fair" in NoCal (now dead and gone) we had a few weekends over 100 F. That actually doesn't bother me terribly if i'm in a loose summer dress, but in thigh high cotton socks, below-knee cotton bloomers (not period but to keep the dust out...), a farthingale, two skirts, linen shift, corset, bodice (lined, interlined, and boned) with long sleeves, coif and hat, it can get a bit warm. We had a big drink dispenser "back-stage" with a Gatorade analog. We were encouraged to taste it occasionally. If it tasted bad, we were encouraged to drink water. If it tasted good or innocuous, we were encouraged to drink it until it tasted bad. Once at the Las Vegas fair, i was sure i'd been hydrating properly. After fair, our "guild" got into our mundanes and went looking for dinner. I mentioned to the guy who was giving me a ride that i was thirsty. He offered Gatorade, i rejected it, he said to take a taste - it was orange. I said, gee, that's odd, i don't remember Gatorade tasting like watered-down Tang. He encouraged me to drink more, since, in fact, it did NOT taste like watered-down Tang... There's no reason for people to drink Gatorade or its analogs if they don't need it - and when it tastes "nasty" they have no need of it. It's only when it tastes like watered down Kool-Aid that you do need it. -- Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) the persona formerly known as Anahita Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 23:35:14 -0400 From: "Phlip" Subject: [Sca-cooks] Fw: [mk-cooks] Fwd: diet gatorade To: , , "SCA-Cooks" , , , More from Sir Omarad on his Gatorade substitute. > Omarad expanded a bit on his reasoning with the "diet gatorade". As he states, feel free to pass this along to anyone who may be interested. > > Rachaol > Subject: diet gatorade > > Please forward as necessary. > I created that recipe with the fact in mind that I would be making my > OWN gatorade so that I could avoid sugar in public gatorades. > Half strength is fine and so is full strength but I find that slightly > watered down is better with the sugary stuff because I always felt > "sticky" when I just wanted to cleanse my palatte between battles. Full > strength with the sugar free is much better in that regard. Your body > just gets rid of any extra potassium or sodium it doesn't need. Most > people really just need the water. The flavorings are just there to add > flavor to water and make you think to drink it. Some recipes also added > some citric acids, I added some vitamin C to my mix. > Other recipes I found actually used fruit juices 50% with water 50% > instead of sugar free kool aids. Some people prefer, or can handle, > natural sugars but not refined sugars. > There are TONS of brands of sugar free drinks with all kinds of > artificial sweeteners from nutrasweet, to splenda, to the new one, > sunnette. ( It's in Coke Zero. ) > BUT you can even just make a "Fortified water" and add potassium and > sodium to your water if you don't handle sweeteners at all. A little > lemon juice is nice too. > For that matter people can use regular Kool-aid with sugar and just > make cheap bulk gatorade for events. > I have used the sugar free strawberry "kool-aid" generic from WalMart > and it was pretty darned good. I also used smuckers sugar free lemonade > and it was deeeelicious. I've cut down my soda intake as well and as > muich as I love my diet cokes I was just drinking waaaay too many for > my own good. > I hope this helps anyone who may need a gatorade alternative for > dietary reasons. > -Omarad > PS- I've lost 23 pounds as of today. (4 1/2 weeks) Saint Phlip, CoD From: Hillary Greenslade Date: January 6, 2006 9:53:44 PM CST To: ansteorra Subject: [Ansteorra] Hug a Waterbearer Alina said: "On waterbearing, the great thing about doing it is everyone is always thankful as it gets really hot fighting especially when the battles go long. The only bad thing is the walking. After a while the water and gatorade bottles seem really heavy while walking back and forth and trying to quickly get to as many combatants as possible." Well, since his Majesty Mahadi is about to take the thrown, I'll share a tale that was told to me from a former kingdom Waterbearer about one day Mahadi did Waterbearing. I don't recall the reason he wasn't fighting, but Mahadi decided if he couldn't fight, he'd do Waterbearing to be near the action, but still participate. At the end of the day, Mahadi complained to the Head-Waterbearer 'I'm so much more tired than if I'd just fought today! and I learned something about Waterbearing. While the fighters are resting, Waterbearers are on the field providing water. But, when the fighters are fighting again, Waterbearers are not resting - but they are refilling their bottles, cutting more oranges, getting ready for the next rest period - so they never stop working!' A good lesson learned. Have you hugged your Waterbearers today! Cheers, Hillary (PS - don't forget to start saving 2 liter containers for Gulf Wars Waterbearers.) From: "Zubeydah Jamilla al-Badawiyya" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: contact / non-contact waterbearing at wars Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 10:15:38 -0600 On the subject of waterbearing. When I was at Estrella last weekend, there was a strong effort by some groups to provide non-contact waterbearing. To get water out on the field in bulk, the easiest method is 2 liter soda bottles with a 'squirt top' / 'sport top' cap. This worked for some helm configurations, but not for others. I personally did not experience anyone asking for the old 'hose' style, but I heard at the station that others did. I brought my personal gear, which is two 1000 ML chemical supply bottles that have an affixed pressure nozzle - it allows me to literally squirt the water in a smooth stream, with pretty good aim, into almost any helm. Despite saying the same phrase, "This is a non-contact bottle - please don't let it touch your lips" every time I handed it to a fighter, I still had people ignore me and muckle on to the nozzle and suck straight from the bottle. I had people pretend to tongue it, as well, simply to be 'cute.' (That bottle got retired from the field, whether it was full or empty and six guys waiting to drink, until such time as it was run through a sanitizing solution.) I've been Ansteorra's Northern Regional waterbearer for the last two years, and have held over a dozen classes on our Kingdom's new standards on waterbearing. Most fighters in my area now recognize the style of bottle I've encouraged use of, and know what to expect. But what about the huge wars? How do we educate the masses of people who show up at a war? If fighters want non-contact to be the standard at large scale wars (I don't think Pennsic is going N/C just yet - I believe Gulf Wars is), and contact to be the exception, what can be done from a WB standpoint and a Kingdom by Kingdom cultural standpoint, to increase training/awareness? I know that the folks at Gulf War have been advertising their need for squirt tops and 2 liter bottles for months, posted a couple times on my Kingdom and regional lists, but haven't gotten much response from anyone other than waterbearers themselves. Any suggestions? Thoughts? From: mmorley at uark.edu Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: contact / non-contact waterbearing at wars Date: 28 Feb 2006 06:52:45 -0800 Zubeydah Jamilla al-Badawiyya wrote: > On the subject of waterbearing. >*snip* > If fighters want non-contact to be the standard at large scale wars (I don't > think Pennsic is going N/C just yet - I believe Gulf Wars is), and contact > to be the exception, what can be done from a WB standpoint and a Kingdom by > Kingdom cultural standpoint, to increase training/awareness? >*snip* That's a pretty big if. It's just not an issue a few miles east and north of you. Calontir has had straw/bucket waterbearing for the last *cough* years and no large scale movement or consensus to change. We provide lots of manpower for waterbearing at many wars around the continent and are perfectly happy "doing it our way". We're happy enough that straws and jugs get brought to GW so that we don't have to mess with helmet removal and being sprayed in the face/neck/eye. I'm pretty happy with the culture of swapping spit and feel no need to change. I often wave off n/c waterbearers because it's just too much hassle and attitude. > Any suggestions? Thoughts? Decide what's important to you. Do it your way. Don't be upset when people don't agree with you. ]\/[arcus who prefers hydration over sterilization Subject: Re: contact / non-contact waterbearing at wars From: "Richard Sutton" Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 09:38:56 +1300 Newsgroups: rec.org.sca > is. Was there a push for it among the fighters? It strikes me as > unlikely that such fastidiousness is widespread among them. Has there > been any reasonably documented problem of communicable disease > spreading this way? Or does it just seem like a good idea? In New Zealand, Meningitis is a problem and kills a few otherwise fit and healthy young people each year. It kills very quickly unless treatment is sought and the problem is correctly diagnosed (instead of just "it is only the flu/cold, go home and have a rest", if this happens, the rest is usually permanent). One of the sources of infection is swapping drink bottles at sports events etc. There are major TV advertising campaigns to discourage swapping drink bottles. So there are good reasons for non contact water bottles. Cheers Gilbert de Montfort From: Heather Rose Jones Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: contact / non-contact waterbearing at wars Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 05:07:33 GMT Dorothy J Heydt wrote: > Richard Sutton wrote: > >>>is. Was there a push for it among the fighters? It strikes me as >>>unlikely that such fastidiousness is widespread among them. Has there >>>been any reasonably documented problem of communicable disease >>>spreading this way? Or does it just seem like a good idea? >> >>In New Zealand, Meningitis is a problem and kills a few otherwise fit and >>healthy young people each year. It kills very quickly unless treatment is >>sought and the problem is correctly diagnosed (instead of just "it is only >>the flu/cold, go home and have a rest", if this happens, the rest is usually >>permanent). One of the sources of infection is swapping drink bottles at >>sports events etc. There are major TV advertising campaigns to discourage >>swapping drink bottles. So there are good reasons for non contact water >>bottles. > > Interesting. I haven't heard of this happening in the US. > Perhaps I just haven't been paying attention? Or is there some > strain of meningitis prevalent in NZ, easily transmitted by > saliva, that hasn't reached North America yet? I think that would be "haven't been paying attention". There was a meningitis outbreak at a Bay Area school sometime in the last half dozen years (IIRC) that was traced to shared water bottles at a sports event. (I'm not having any luck turning up a link, but I remember it being in the news.) Tangwystyl -- Heather Rose Jones heather at heatherrosejones.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: djheydt at kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) Subject: Re: contact / non-contact waterbearing at wars Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 01:14:31 GMT Zebee Johnstone wrote: >In rec.org.sca on Thu, 2 Mar 2006 20:56:50 GMT >Dorothy J Heydt wrote: >> So maybe non-contact watering is a good idea, at that, and we >> need to figure out ways of implementing it. Disposable straws, >> maybe, and paper cups into which the waterbearer pours the water? >> She'd need to wear a trash sack over her shoulder, but the trash >> would be light. Is there a risk if each fighter has own bit of hose? Unfortunately, I have the feeling that the last sip in the straw, that got as far as the fighter's lips but he didn't swallow it, could drain back into the bottle before it was removed therefrom and contaminate it anyway. Unless the waterbearer removed the hose from the bottle while the fighter was still sucking and let him drain it dry. I also wonder where he'd keep it -- wrapped around his helm maybe? -- while he was fighting. Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt Mists/Mists/West Albany, California PRO DEO ET REGE djheydt at kithrup.com From: "Richard Sutton" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: contact / non-contact waterbearing at wars Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 10:50:46 +1300 > traveled by railroad, drunk from the water cooler, and later > developed a sore on her mouth. "The infection later proved to be > of an unmentionable nature." In other words, syphilis, which > unlike other STDs is transmittable by other means than sexual > contact. Cold sores or herpes would be another good reason not to share water bottles. They are painful and annoying and easily transmitted through contact (plus the virus is for life too). Cheers Gilbert de Montfort From: "Richard Sutton" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: contact / non-contact waterbearing at wars Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 14:11:13 +1300 > In New Zealand, Meningitis is a problem and kills a few otherwise fit and > healthy young people each year. It kills very quickly unless treatment is > sought and the problem is correctly diagnosed (instead of just "it is only > the flu/cold, go home and have a rest", if this happens, the rest is usually > permanent). One of the sources of infection is swapping drink bottles at > sports events etc. There are major TV advertising campaigns to discourage > swapping drink bottles. So there are good reasons for non contact water > bottles. Here are some interesting links regarding this, makes you think before you drink..... http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3590895a10,00.html http://www.moh.govt.nz/meningococcal http://www.moh.govt.nz/moh.nsf/wpg_index/About-Meningococcal+Disease+FAQs#4 Cheers Gilbert de Montfort From: tmcd at panix.com (Tim McDaniel) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: contact / non-contact waterbearing at wars Date: 26 Feb 2006 14:35:04 -0600 Zubeydah Jamilla al-Badawiyya wrote: >I brought my personal gear, which is two 1000 ML chemical supply >bottles that have an affixed pressure nozzle - it allows me to >literally squirt the water in a smooth stream, with pretty good aim, >into almost any helm. Despite saying the same phrase, "This is a >non-contact bottle - please don't let it touch your lips" every time >I handed it to a fighter, I still had people ignore me and muckle on >to the nozzle and suck straight from the bottle. I have no experience with waterbearing, especially not with those "pressure nozzles", but would it be possible to hold your hand up near / beside / in front of the nozzle, so that if they lunge for it, you can push them back? I suppose your hand might get tired, though. >(That bottle got retired from the field, whether it was full or empty >and six guys waiting to drink, until such time as it was run through >a sanitizing solution.) In that position, if I had the energy, I might loudly point out to the others the person who was responsible for them not getting your water. Dannet de Lincoln From: Gretchen Beck Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: contact / non-contact waterbearing at wars Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 12:48:34 -0500 Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA --On Sunday, February 26, 2006 10:15 AM -0600 Zubeydah Jamilla al-Badawiyya wrote: > How do we educate the masses of people who show up at a war? Work with the marshalate. Talk them into making "this is the kind of water bottle you'll be seeing on the field, here's how it works. Don't put your mouth on it" a part of armor inspection at the war. Adds a few seconds to inspection, and insures that each fighter individually gets informed not to touch the water bottle. Add a reminder about the water to the crys/announcements from the heralds. Good luck! I'm not a water bearer, but I am interested in ways people communicate information. When you decide how to communicate this at large wars, please let me know what you're doing and how it works. It'll probably turn out to be something of general use in other fields as well. toodles, margaret From: Chris Zakes Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: contact / non-contact waterbearing at wars Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2006 14:01:45 GMT On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 01:39:22 -0500, an orbital mind-control laser caused Terri to write: >Wouldn't this all just become Moot if folks took care of themselves >and brought their own water? Are we not setting ourselves and others >up for problems by encouraging fighters and watchers to feel that they >have the right to expect others to cater to their needs? > I grant you that it's easy to drop from heat exhaustion on a >battlefield in the sun - but I doubt that the water, pickles, oranges, >and other items currently being viewed as "required" items provided by >'staff' are doing more than saving a few and teaching the many that >they can be irresponsible. > >Hrothny I *always* bring my own fluids to events, and almost always have some waiting at the side of the field. But... If I'm in the middle of fighting or marshalling a melee and a long "hold" is called, it's a lot more convenient to have a waterbearer offer me something to drink than to have to walk off the field and get it myself. Imagine a large "hold" on the field at Pennsic or Gulf War or Estrella: everybody heads off the field to their coolers to grab a drink. Now a) how do you make sure everybody gets back to the spot they left, *without* taking tactical advantage of the confusion to reform lines and suchlike? and b) how do you make sure *everybody* makes it back onto the field in a reasonable time? (A five-minute water break evolves into a twenty-minute bathroom break, which evolves into a forty five-minute snack break, which evolves into a two-hour lunch break, which evolves into a four-hour shopping trip, and you may as well call off the melee at that point.) Alternatively, you could just not allow the fighters to leave the field for water, which gets us right back to the problem of overheating and heat exhaustion--been there, done that. Anybody remember the woods battle at Gulf War 1? I don't see this as encouraging folks to be irresponsible, any more than having chirurgeons on-site is irresponsible. I see it as a further resource *in addition* to what I bring on my own. -Tivar Moondragon Ansteorra From: Galen of Ockham Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: contact / non-contact waterbearing at wars Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2006 23:59:29 GMT >It's been many years since I fought, much less at wars, and nowadays I >rarely even watch the battles. This is the first I've heard of >non-contact waterbearing. I have to wonder what the motivation for it >is. Was there a push for it among the fighters? It strikes me as >unlikely that such fastidiousness is widespread among them. Has there >been any reasonably documented problem of communicable disease >spreading this way? Or does it just seem like a good idea? I can shed some light on this. Non-contact waterbearing has been a grass-roots effort of the waterbearers and a few Chirurgeons in several Kingdoms. It has especially been implemented at Gulf Wars. The reasoning behind it is the increased awareness of the transmission of disease by body fluids. Now in your standard body fluid protection course, they state that saliva is not a worry. That is true if you are talking about skin contact. When you are drinking after someone, you are having direct contact with the mucous membranes in the mouth. If you're the nth person to drink from a communal bottle, then you have essentially just kissed n-1 people - and just look at that ugly bugger who drank just before you!!! We are not worried about AIDS spreading this way, but there have been documented outbreaks of bacterial meningitis from sports bottles. Less well documented, but entirely probably are hepatitis A, herpes, tuberculosis, colds, and influenza to name some of the more common ailments. It is hard to document many of theses because they are not unusual diseases and the incubation period means you will come down with them sometime after the event and the exposed populace have spread to the four winds. With non-contact waterbearing, we are pushing a system that helps to protect the health of the populace. The more common things we're preventing aren't serious, but are an annoyance and can cause missed work. Some, like meningitis and hepatitis can be fatal or chronic diseases that cannot be cured. We have the capability of providing water to our fighters without risking the transmission of disease. Doesn't it make sense that we should take advantage of it? Galen of Ockham, MC, OP (MKA Keith E. Brandt, MD, MPH) From: Galen of Ockham Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: contact / non-contact waterbearing at wars Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 22:53:44 GMT Robert Uhl wrote: > Are there any figures to support the idea that disease transmission via > shared water has been at all common at SCA events? As I stated, it is next to impossible to get hard data on the subject since the populace disperses before they would come down with most bugs. There are anecdotal reports of increased colds following events, and there have been full outbreaks of things such as "Pennsic Plague". The costs are pretty neutral. Instead of buying tubing, you're buying bottles or just squirt tops (which are reusable assuming they are properly cleansed with bleach solution, as should the tubes used for contact waterbearing). Of the groups implementing the non-contact system, cost has never been raised as a barrier. Galen Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 02:29:10 -0500 From: "otsisto" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pennsic weather To: "Cooks within the SCA" -----Original Message----- Jadwiga replied to me with: <<< > Or even one a few years > ago when the waterbearers were making periodic rounds of the class > tents as well as the field. >> This doesn't sound right. Rules are that you give liquid to the fighters and the spectators, basically to anyone that needs it. Perhaps one has said to focus their waterbearing in the fighting areas but they can not forbid a WB from going to the tents to see if their is a need. I have sent this statement to the SCA WB list to see if this is true or myth. It is possible since the person in charge changes from year to year and for one year the person in charge made the decision. Pennsic WB does not have a large budget, this years WB in charge made the decision to cut back on the Gatorade in order to purchase more drink coolers (they are envisioning a set up like what Meridies have at Gulf Wars). <<< if you see one, and it's running low, consider taking it up to Chirugeons' and refilling it from the Cow. >>> Why Chirurgeon's point? Would it not be WB point? Lyse Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 04:13:17 -0400 From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pennsic weather To: Cooks within the SCA > <<< if you see one, and it's running > low, consider taking it up to Chirugeons' and refilling it from the > Cow. >>> > > Why Chirurgeon's point? Would it not be WB point? Because that is where the Water Bearers get their water, and it is close to the Class tents. The cow is a series of water filters, making the well water more acceptable for drinking. Ranvaig From: Elaine Manyoki Date: May 30, 2008 1:43:20 PM CDT To: trimaris-temp at yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [tri-temp] Re: was..Weather for TMT..but now about gatorade Red Gatorade is frowned upon because it is sometimes difficult to see the difference between it and blood in some folks, (although blood usually looks like coffee grounds)...red is one of the worst color additives for food/drink allergies..it will also send someone who is adhd flying, which is why I never gave it to any of my kids.. It is always a good idea to tell someone you are carrying gatorade AND water, since there are some, like me, who are allergic to gatorade.
 Katya

 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 18:50:38 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: [Sca-cooks] Waterbearing To: Cooks within the SCA Here's the official announcement from sca.org Johnnae ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Patrick Anderson Date: Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 10:57 AM Subject: [Announcements] Waterbearing proposal request for comments To: announcements at sca.org />From the President, Patrick Anderson: / Earlier this year, I was asked by several people in the waterbearing community to examine the various laws of states and countries related to waterbearing as an organized and official activity of the SCA, Inc. Various states have informed officers of the SCA, Inc. that while our activity does not directly violate the food codes or health regulations of their states, if there were to be an outbreak of illness, the SCA, Inc. could be held liable for that outbreak. Several health care professionals and attorneys have reviewed this topic and agree with this assessment. I was asked to examine the best way to both ensure a safe fighting environment for our fighters, and to comply with the various state and country laws. The relevant laws vary from state by state, county by county and country by country. I determined that the best way to do this would be to make "waterbearing" unofficial and unsanctioned by the SCA, Inc. and proposed this change to the Board. The only other option would be to regulate waterbearing, and to regulate it such that it follows the various food safety codes of the various states and countries the SCA participates in. This would be unwieldy, impractical and expensive for the SCA to do. Further, it is likely that waterbearers would not be able to continue to serve our fighters using any of the current methods of waterbearing. The proposal put before the membership for comment would stop waterbearing by any SCA branch or other official group. The SCA would not have an office of waterbearer at any level. Marshals would still be permitted to allow waterbearers on the field, but any waterbearing must not be done by any officially sanctioned or regulated groups of the SCA. Households are welcome to provide water to fighters, as are unofficial and unrecognized "guilds". This does not bar groups from putting out the "serve yourself water coolers" at events. (In my Kingdom they are usually the big orange cylinders.) The Board and Corporate officers understand that many people have spent time waterbearing within the official framework, and now hope that you continue to volunteer unofficially. This proposal has been brought to enable fighters to continue to have a waterbearing service provided to them, without the extremely strict governance that official waterbearing will require. The actual text of the proposed rule is below. This rule has not yet been approved by the Board, and is being sent out for comment here. The Directors request comments from the membership regarding this proposed revision no later than October 1st, 2008. Please send them to: Corpora Revision SCA Inc. Box 360789 Milpitas CA, 95036 email: comments at sca.org Thank you for commenting. Patrick Anderson President, Society for Creative Anachronism, Inc. Proposed language to be added to Corpora: The activity of providing beverages to combatants and spectators at SCA Combat activities is not regulated, warranted, organized, controlled, or sanctioned by the SCA, Inc. or any affiliate or subsidiary entity. All warrants, authorizations, or other formal recognition of this activity are by publication of this change revoked. This document does not either address or restrict such volunteer activity or the methods by which it occurs. -- Patrick Anderson President Society for Creative Anachronism, Inc. president at sca.org 952-412-4112 Comments are strongly encouraged and can be sent to: SCA Inc. Box 360789 Milpitas, CA 95036 You may also email comments at lists.sca.org. This announcement is an official informational release by the Society for Creative Anachronism , Inc. Permission is granted to reproduce this announcement in its entirety in newsletters, websites and electronic mailing lists. From: Hillary Greenslade Date: June 25, 2008 4:13:22 PM CDT To: ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Calontir waterbearing <<< Though I was quite taken aback by the contact water-bearing, I surmise that Calontir's culture of camaraderie and esprit de corps lends itself to such a practice. I will definitely be going back, though I will take steps to insure my own water. :-) Baron Armand Dragonetti >>> My understanding is that Calontir is determined not to offer ONLY non-contact waterbearing, in deference to the fighters who have closed face helms and couldn't get the squirt-tops in to a mouth opening that didn't exist or was too small. They offer both choices, and I can understand that. The thought is that it's the fighters choice to use contact or non-contact, and the fighter knows the consequences of that choice. But, as a waterbearer, Calontiri are going to get the water into the fighter, whichever choice was made. So, they still offer contact waterbearing (with a plastic straw to slurp up the water though the face plate) AND non-contact. If at Lillies this year they only offered the one (non-contact), then that's wrong. Hillary From: Hugh & Belinda Niewoehner Date: June 25, 2008 6:14:53 PM CDT To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Calontir waterbearing Guten Tag, This goes back to a perennial problem everywhere...volunteers (or lack thereof). I heard the head waterbearer on Monday say he just didn't have enough people to carry regular jugs and non-contact. Therefore they had the non-contact bottles filled and ready, 2 per shoulder bag, but they did not actually carry them out onto the field. For those who have not been to Lilies the farthest you'd have to walk (worst case) is about 75-100 yards. For the ressurection battles a lady who required a scooter for mobility utilized the cargo basket on the back to make water runs to and from the main water point to the res. points. Note, they sterilized the jugs and tubes between each refill. A few years ago there was a discussion on the Calonet about the contact/non-contact thing and it was postulated by someone (IIRC a doctor) that the odds of passing something was statistically insignificant. If the choices are hydration vs. passing a potentially communicable disease, dehydration was the greater threat to the health of the participant. Those with compromised immune systems know that fact and generally plan for it by having their own supply. In my case, I just don't feel that I get enough water through a little squirt nozzle. I have a fairly large water jug with a large pouring spout that I keep with my gear. Fortunately the Lilies battlefield is close to the shade flys provided for an armoring area. In a pinch, yeah I'll used the bottles with the straws. If you pay attention, you can grab a bearer who is just arriving with a freshly filled jug. As Hillary said. Like it or not they're going to make sure they get water to you. The choice is yours. Armand, glad you had a good time. Some of the scenarios sounded a little weird but all in all it was a lot of fun. The shepherds vs. villagers was a blast. And to get a ride on Yrsa was the cream on the cake. Regards, Damon Hroarsson, HE Borrendöhl Dragonetti wrote: <<< They offered both. But I only saw the straws in gallon jugs being carried to the fighters by the water-bearers. For squirt-top water, the fighters were invited to trek over to the water bearers station (not terribly far), where they were available. -=Armand=- >>> From: Tim McDaniel Date: August 26, 2008 4:22:54 PM CDT To: Barony of Bryn Gwlad Subject: [Bryn-gwlad] Hydration is an interesting article on getting enough water. It mentions, in part, that food provide more or less water (depending on type and cooking). I was also struck by these paragraphs: Caffeine considerations You may have heard about the dehydrating effects of caffeine. But leading health authorities including the Institute of Medicine and the American College of Sports Medicine say that's a myth. While caffeine does signal our kidneys to rid our bodies of excess water, it does so for only a short time, so we still retain more fluid than we lose after sipping a caffeinated beverage. The Institute of Medicine reports caffeinated beverages contribute to our daily water needs as much as noncaffeinated drinks. In a study published in 2007 in the International Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism, when researchers asked cyclists to bike for two-plus hours under hot, humid conditions, they found a caffeine-infused sports drink was as hydrating as a traditional sports drink. Daniel de Lindonio will probably prefer water anyway, just because he thinks it tastes more refreshing -- Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com From: Richard Threlkeld Date: February 15, 2009 2:04:17 PM CST To: , "'Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc.'" Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Sad Kingdom Law Change Actually, this was debated and discussed greatly through most of 2008 on the Chirurgeon and Waterbearer lists and some on other lists. I was against it, but I have to admit there was a lot of transparency. Most people discussing it missed the point, however. It was not liability per se. It was the actions of the modern bureaucracies (particularly in Texas). In Texas, they were tasked by the legislature to investigate and regulate the furnishing of food (and water was defined as a food by FDA regulations) to others whether for profit or not. They were not given any money to do this. They were told they could investigate if there was one complaint and must investigate if there were more than one. They tried to charge the costs to the complainer, but that had the undesirable side effect of dampening (ignore the pun) complaints. So the only one left is the one being investigated. So the cost of the investigation is put on the group or individual being investigated whether or not they turn out to have done anything wrong. That cost is usually over $10,000 for the investigator's time, lab work, site visits, interviews, etc. They don't go after individuals (so far), but they do go after organized groups including church groups, scout groups, and other non-profits (like us). That is a lot of cost when you have done nothing wrong. Other states and countries had similar issues. Since feasts were done individually by the head cooks who were not doing a warranted function of the group at the time, the food was furnished and prepared by individuals (even though the money was advanced and collected by the group). This ruling puts water bearers in approximately the same position. Of course, any good lawyer will try to sue the SCA if they sue the cooks/water bearers, but suing is not the question here. The regulatory structure did not follow that logic (or illogic). Note the Seneschal is still responsible for enforcing whatever laws are applicable at the site of any SCA event. So they must enforce food (and water) sanitation regulations, general health regulations, etc. Whether they know the applicable laws is another matter. They may choose to ask people who have training from whatever source to help with water bearing and allow them to use local group supplies to ensure their event is not breaking laws - or not. But a warranted officer is not in charge of the actual providing of water as part of their job as an officer of the SCA. In service, Caelin on Andrede From: "Jay Rudin" Date: February 17, 2009 9:58:29 AM CST To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." Subject: [Ansteorra] Water-bearing and legal risks Pooky asked: <<< Sure we can say let them fight and hydrate (or not) at their own risk that way the Society be less culpable, but here is where my lack of modern understanding comes to query, is Society even more at legal risk for permitting an activity and purposely not providing a crucial safety feature like hydration when the cause and effect is so clear cut? >>> The answer is a lot longer than this, and involves the history of legal cases and modern bureaucracy, but the short, easy, sorta-vaguely true answer is that if private individuals help people, then that is a private act -- nobody's business but their own. But if a corporation says that they are going to heklp them, then it's a public commitment, that the people can depend on and the state can regulate. If officers of the corporation provide water 99 times out of 100, then when somebody gets dehydrated that 100th time at a small, new shire's first event, it's because the fighter didn't bring water because he knew the SCA would do it. By giving water officially, we have said that people can depend on us. Then, if we're not perfect, people will be hurt because of our failure. Add to that the fact that serving food and water is regulated by the state. If the state regulatory board hears that we are doing something unsafe -- say, letting more than one person drink out of the same bottle -- they can start an investigation AND MAKE US PAY THEIR COSTS. Even if we did nothing wrong. Even if they prove we did nothing wrong. The annoying people avoiding responsibility for their own actions here isn't the SCA corporation -- it's the state of Texas. Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin P.S. I repeat, the real answer is much more complex than this, and I don't claim to know it all. The above discussion is incomplete, not exactly accurate, and untrustworthy. It's still pretty close to sorta kinda vaguely in the same ballpark as the truth. From: Ysabeau To: Barony of Bryn Gwlad Sent: Thursday, October 1, 2009 11:48:50 AM Subject: Re: [Bryn-gwlad] Squirty nozzles? I don't know that you can buy the squirty nozzles individually. I usually buy a case of bottles with them and then reuse them. I'm going to be going to Costco this afternoon to buy a case so I'll make sure I get the ones with the squirt tops. Ysabeau On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 11:42 AM, Zach Most wrote: <<< I'm thinking my daughter might enjoy helping out the war company at 3 Queens by keeping folks hydrated, but she has no gear to do it. Where can you buy the squirty nozzles that the water bearers use on their bottles? Gaston >>> From: "Ld. Alfred" Date: October 2, 2009 12:09:45 PM CDT To: Barony of Bryn Gwlad Subject: Re: [Bryn-gwlad] Squirty nozzles? Actually, you can buy the squirt tops - if you want to buy in lots of 50 (that is what the manufacturer I bought them from sells them by when I set up the current waterbearing equipment). The main thing to remember in re-using squirt caps is that not all bottle water sellers use the same type of caps - the threads are different. For example, the "sports cap" on an Ozarka body may not fit a Desani bottle, etc, etc. If the threads are mis-matched, you could be in for a soggy surprise when too much pressure is applied. Alfred Edited by Mark S. Harris waterbearing-msg Page 30 of 30