Title: waterbearing-msg
Subject: Comments and suggestions for waterbearing and organising waterbearing for fighters at SCA tournaments and melees. Water and beverage distribution at events.
Author: Edited by Mark S. Harris
Last saved by: Mark S. Harris
Keywords: SCA, waterbearing, water, dehydration, combat, armor, drink, potassium

waterbearing-msg – 12/10/09

Comments and suggestions for waterbearing and organizing waterbearing for fighters at SCA tournaments and melees.  Water and beverage distribution at events.

NOTE: See also the files: On-Rehydration-art, waterbearing-art, WB-Checklist-art, event-ideas-msg, evnt-stewards-msg, demos-msg, privvies-msg, evnt-stwd-cltn-art, tourn-ideas-msg, marshalling-msg, melee-tactics-art.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I  have done  a limited amount  of  editing. Messages having to do  with separate topics  were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the  message IDs  were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make  no claims  as  to the accuracy  of  the information  given  by the individual authors.

Please  respect the time  and  efforts of  those who have written  these messages. The  copyright status  of these messages  is  unclear  at this time. If  information  is  published  from  these  messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 19:11:14 MST
From: MGreene at mpan.com
Subject: ANST - Waterbearer supplies
To: <giovanna51 at yahoo.com>,  ansteorra at ansteorra.org

Lady Giovanna Lena Caronna inquired:
 Also, if anyone has access to the flexible line that goes into the gallon milk
jugs for water-bearing.  I would greatly appreciate the donation.  <snip>

I believe what Lady Giovanna is referring to the *food-grade* polyvinyl hose.
With summer is coming, this is a good time for Waterbearer reminders.   Tubing can be foundrolled in boxes, in the plumbing section of most hardware stores and  comes in  various thickness's. It's used  to connect hoses between refrigeration units and soda machines.

Waterbearers have found the 3/8th in. thickness to work best for most fighter helmets. Some have used fish tank hoses in past, but they tend to collapse on use.  Be sure to purchase the clear vinyl instead of the stiffer white vinyl.   The hose  can be reused several times if cleaned in hot water and soaked in Clorox bleach, and rinsed again thoroughly .

You can also buy tubing wholesale from distributors, but you have to purchase the whole box or more, and must have a sales tax id number.  But, it can be done.

Few years ago, kingdoms started switching to the bottle pop-tops for our 2-liter containers, for sanitation reasons. I save mine off the tops of water bottles purchases at store, clean them and pass them along to waterbearers. But, some fighter helmets are not designed with a large opening to squirt the water through, so those fighters wish to continue using the water hoses; anything to get water.

During these summer months, populace, please be sure to save and clean your water & milk gallon and 2-liter soda bottles.  Also, save your water pop-tops from water and sport drinks, clean them as well.  Donate these items to your branch Waterbearers.  It will ensure there are plenty of supplies for all our hot Ansteorran events.

Thanks,  Mistress Hillary Greenslade
(former Kingdom Waterbearer, with the grey hairs and bad back to prove it!)

To: spca-wascaerfrig at egroups.com
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:00:04 EDT
From: PBLoomis at aol.com
Subject: Re: [spca-wascaerfrig] Can anyone help me?  

In a message dated 4/17/00 00:13:15 EST, duchessa at juno.com writes:
> How are the water jugs configured/made for the fighters to drink on
>  the field while keeping some sort of infection control? I plan on helping
>  waterbear at Baron"s War next month but I need the water jugs.

    Proper ones are squirt bottles made by Nalgene, where you squeeze 
the bottle to eject a thin stream.  I cannot get them at a sports store.  
Think  you have to go to a chemistry lab supply house.

    Scotti

To: spca-wascaerfrig at egroups.com
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 08:20:29 EDT
From: Elysant at aol.com
Subject: Re: [spca-wascaerfrig] Can anyone help me?  

> > Hi, How are the water jugs configured/made for the fighters to drink on
> > the field while keeping some sort of infection control? I plan on helping
> > waterbare at Baron"s War next month but I need the water jugs.  

(snip)
 
> I recently got several messages detailing how they currently are 
> requesting water bearer bottles be constructed in Ansteorra. 

(snip) 
 
I am a waterbearerer for ConFed and served as such last year at Pennsic.  

We picked up the bottles (which were pre-filled for us) from the pick-up 
point on the field.  2 liter waterbottles were used.  I do not know if they 
were rinsed with anything prior to filling.

On the field, we inserted a long piece of plastic bendable tubing into the 
bottle, and in this way could insert the end of it through the front face 
guard grill of the fighters so they could drink.  It isn't as far as I've 
seen standard practice to change these "straws" between fighters.  We also 
added "Gatorade" to some of the bottles so the fighters had a choice of 
beverage.

Some of the bottles were only used for wetting rags for the fighters to cool 
themselves down with.  Such bottles could be differentiated from those with 
water to drink by a coloured tape on the handle   Also, bottled water could 
be used if you're worried the water put into the bottles from a faucet might 
be tainted or tastes nasty, or if you are unsure that the bottles have been 
rinsed out adequately.

Elysant 

From: "Lord Oakrock©" <lordoakrock at netscape.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Water Bearer Bottles
Date: 28 Sep 2001 22:24:02 GMT

Beth
They use clear plastic tubing.  About 1/4" interior dia.  Then drill a hole
in the cap the same size as the outer dia.  You can find this type of tubing
at an aquarium store and some large auto supply stores.  It would be used in
RV water systems or large fish tanks.
James

"Beth" <steelspirit at earthlink.net> wrote
> A number of years ago (looking at the calendar it shows eight
> years...ugh), I lived in Atenveldt and attended Estrella X. At that war
> I saw the water bearers with bottles that had been made from 2-liter
> bottles and tubing of some kind. Now that mundane life has settled
> enough to permit me to return to the current middle ages, I find my
> house going through several 3-liter bottles (things bigger in texas I
> guess ;)  ). I would like to convert these into the type of bottles that
> I saw at the war, but have as yet not been able to find info on doing
> this. I want to be sure that the tubing  can be secured to the hole that
> would be put in the center of the cover, but it must remain safe for the
> fighters to drink the water from.
>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> Beth

From: "Lord Oakrock©" <jmenotti at cryobank.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Water Bearer Bottles
Date: 28 Sep 2001 23:32:06 GMT

Some put a couple of raps of duct tape above the cape to keep it from being
pushed to far in but not under the cap.  They all pull out if you drop the
bottle.  As long as you make the hole close to or the same as the outer
diameter of the tubing it will stay put.  Some of the fabric bags have
Velcro on the shoulder strap the holds the tubs up and lessen the chance
they would get in the dirt.  I have seen Velcro on the tube and it raped
around the tube and sewn on the strap.

These are all observations from inside a helm, in between battles.  the
product is simple but always appreciated.

From: Judith M Phillips <jmp64 at cornell.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Water Bearer Bottles
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 00:51:44 GMT

On Fri, 28 Sep 2001 21:28:28 GMT, Beth <steelspirit at earthlink.net> wrote:
> A number of years ago (looking at the calendar it shows eight
> years...ugh), I lived in Atenveldt and attended Estrella X. At that war
> I saw the water bearers with bottles that had been made from 2-liter
> bottles and tubing of some kind. Now that mundane life has settled
> enough to permit me to return to the current middle ages, I find my
> house going through several 3-liter bottles (things bigger in texas I
> guess ;)  ). I would like to convert these into the type of bottles that
> I saw at the war, but have as yet not been able to find info on doing
> this. I want to be sure that the tubing  can be secured to the hole that
> would be put in the center of the cover, but it must remain safe for the
> fighters to drink the water from.

It's not quite what you're asking about, but one gallon jugs work as well; the tubing can be threaded down into the handle. It stays pretty stable.

Adelais

From: "Dennis O'Connor" <dmoc at primenet.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Water Bearer Bottles
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 19:04:43 -0700

I've water-born with the 2 2-liter bottles (one water, one dilute Gatorade)
and I'm not sure 3-liters would be a good choice, might be too
much bulk and/or weight.  But you can try.

A sling that goes over the neck and hangs down with a pocket
for a bottle on each side is a handy thing for this work, BTW.
Easy to make too, just sew together 3 cloth rectangles.
--
Dennis O'Connor                   dmoc at primenet.com
We don't become a rabid dog to destroy a rabid dog.

From: "Sally Burnell" <sburnell at raex.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Water Bearer Bottles
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 22:39:50 -0400

     There was some talk this past Pennsic of developing what they were
calling "non-contact" water-bearing, so there are apparently some changes in
store for how we are going to do it. I guess there have been some concerns
about some illnesses which could be passed by several thousand people all
drinking out of the same bottle (even though we use these plastic tubes
stuck down into the bottles), such as Hepatitis, Meningitis and other stuff.

     At Pennsic, when we go to get refills for our bottles, we take those
plastic tubes out and put them in a disinfecting solution and then get fresh
bottles with freshly disinfected tubes in them. Still, the Chirurgeonate did
express some concern about certain illnesses which could theoretically be
passed, so I think there is something in the works to make water-bearing
less contact oriented.

     At any rate, what we've been doing for so long now is to take plastic
gallon jugs and fill them with water or a 50-50 solution of water and
gatorade, and then stick plastic tubing down inside the handle to make it
easier for fighters to be able to get a swig of fluid through their helms.
Seems to work just fine, and honestly, I don't know where they get that
plastic tubing stuff.

THLady Saradwen Ariandalen
Marche of Gwyntarian
(Akron/Kent, OH)
Midrealm

From: db <deadmonk at hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Water Bearer Bottles
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 12:13:20 -0700

There is a specific type of silicone adhesive available for aquarium use made by
GE and available at most larger hardware stores.. It seems that some expensive
exotic fish are _very_  touchy when it comes to such things (far more so than
humans). I would have no qualms about drinking from a hose glued into a bottle
with that. Of course, you would have to let it dry for a few days first to get
all traces of the solvent out of it.

db

From: db <deadmonk at hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Water Bearer Bottles
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 12:21:38 -0700

My suggestion from some time back for sanitary water tubes is to have a plastic
tube that is just the right size for a regular drinking straw to fit tightly
into. Each fighter gets a drink from a new straw, the old one gets tossed into a
bag. If plastic straws are used, they can be disinfected in bleach water and
reused. If paper is used, it is biodegradable. For the particularly squeamish, a
simple one way valve could be incorporated into the system. But I don't
personally see that as much of a problem.
Another idea is that each fighter carry a leather water flask as part of his own
gear (they can have rubber or plastic bladders in them). Water bearers would
then fill up flasks through an open lid, and the only "unsanitary" part would be
the tube on each fighters own flask.

db

From: Erin-Joi Collins McNeal <erinjoi at hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Water Bearer Bottles
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 16:29:22 -0400
Organization: Emory University

I have been watching this thread with professional interest. I must
put my work out of my mind when I work a battle. (I am a chirurgeon,
but part of that is water bearing) My preference is for the
non-contact version. Here are my reasons...

I work with enteric pathogens. These are viruses and other pathogens
which cause acute gastroenteritis (read: diarrhea and vomiting).
Although the primary mode of transmission is fecal-oral (poor hand
washing), most of these pathogens are carried in other gastric
secretions as well. Vomitus is highly infectious; saliva is
infectious though not as highly. So sharing a straw/tube etc. even
with a one way valve is one good way to spread pathogens. Other
pathogens spread through oral secretions include the common cold. 

I realize it will take a while before we find appropriate
non-contact bottles. The bottles bought for Pennsic which looked
wonderful had a lousy flow rate. They just didn't work. I prefer the
water bottles with the sports tops. As long as the fighters don't
put the top in their mouths they stay somewhat sanitary.
Additionally the waterbearers who refill the bottles must have clean
hands to screw the lids on after refilling.

I guess this explains why I usually stay out of conversations like
this...

Tabitha/Master Chirurgeon
Erin-Joi/Research Specialist, Emory School of Public Health

From: Beth <steelspirit at earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Water Bearer Bottles
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 22:22:05 GMT

db wrote:

> My suggestion from some time back for sanitary water tubes is to have a plastic
> tube that is just the right size for a regular drinking straw to fit tightly
> into. Each fighter gets a drink from a new straw, the old one gets tossed into 
> a bag. If plastic straws are used, they can be disinfected in bleach water and
> reused. If paper is used, it is biodegradable. For the particularly squeamish,
> a simple one way valve could be incorporated into the system. But I don't
> personally see that as much of a problem.
> Another idea is that each fighter carry a leather water flask as part of his own
> gear (they can have rubber or plastic bladders in them). Water bearers would
> then fill up flasks through an open lid, and the only "unsanitary" part would
> be the tube on each fighters own flask.
>
> db

I like the idea of the straws inside the tube. The one way valve sounds great, where would I look for something like that? I would like this project to be something that both the kingdoms that I am offering these to can use and not have to replace or modify in the near future. So if there are things that can be worked out of the current system beforehand, it would be a great help. I have not purchased the supplies for this yet. I want to have a good idea of what to do, before spending money on something that might need changing.

I think when I venture to buy the tubing, I'll bring a piece of a straw with me to be sure it will fit right.

Thank you for your insights into this.
Beth

From: db <deadmonk at hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Water Bearer Bottles
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 08:18:46 -0700

Did a bit of looking about. Seems the most likely source for one way valves is an aquarium supply store. There is a small one way valve made to keep water from backing up into the air pump. They cost a couple of bucks and are sized to fit into plastic tubing.

Should work.

db

From: "Rev. Mike Martin" <ld_hrothgar at yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Water Bearer Bottles
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:52:23 GMT

Stefan li Rous wrote:
> There have been some wonderful bits of info and suggestions given
> here. Many of these talk about using plastic tubes. I believe that
> many kingdoms are getting away from these and going toward the caps
> with the little plugs that you pull out (they are captive to the caps)
> and then easily squirt through a face grill. The advantage is that

 Sorry, I think you meant to say "... easily soak the fighter because
they can't get the stream aimed at their mouth through a bar grill
without it splashing all over the place..." and we won't even mention
the guys will full face helms.

> unlike the tube, there is no transfer of any diseases from one fighter
> to the next.

 I have seen several fighters take their own water bottle (with straw)
and mark it with a sharpie "This belongs to FOO who is SICK, do NOT use
this unless YOU want to be SICK too!" and nobody touched em... they
didn't drink out of any other bottle... all was well.

 Hrothgar
--
Rev. Mike Martin    Lord Hrothgar the Smith
http://members.home.net/mmartin139/
scribere jussit amor

Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] water-symbols
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:31:08 -0600
From: Charlene Charette <charlene at flash.net>
To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>

CAC wrote:
> Can someone provide a link where I can find the water-bearing symbol
> for our group? Being computer illiterate, I can't seem to find it on
> the SCA site. Thank you.

Go to:  http://www.goldenstag.net/MiscSCA/OfficerBadges.htm

Scroll down to the "water bearers" badge - it's white & blue and looks
like a drop of water.

Warning:  this page is graphics intensive and took awhile to load.

--Perronnelle

Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] water-symbols
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 22:07:42 -0600
From: "Chiara" <chiara at io.com>
To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>

The new webminister of the society has his own personal site of these:
http://www.eastkingdom.org/web/graphics.html

Sincerely,
Franchesca Havas
McKinney, Texas

From: Lou Burgin [AMBERLEA at peoplepc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 5:42 PM
To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] WATER & GATORADE

I am going to add my 2 cents here. I have done a lot of research and taught
many classes on the care and feeding of the fighter. In a normally healthy
human, water is all you need to replace. The trouble is getting the to drink
plain water. Sports drinks are expensive, and should be served 1/2 strength
to replace the water that the body needs. I also recommend lemonade. It has
the citrus to help the body maintain electrolyte balance, is mostly water,
sugar for energy, and the koolaid variety is very inexpensive.  

H.E. AmberLea

From: Morgan Cain (Ansteorra) [morgancain at earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 11:32 PM
To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] WATER & GATORADE 

Alina asked:
> Stupid question but I'll ask anyway.
>
> Why gatorade?

As a very experienced waterbearer and former fighter, I will echo what many
people have said:  it's the mixture of sugar, salt, and minerals,
particularly potassium, in Gatorade, Powerade, and the other "sports drinks"
that have made them de rigeur for waterbearing.

If you don't like the taste of Gatorade, don't drink it.  Or try other
flavours; I think lemon-lime and orange are the easiest to get in the large,
cheap quantities, which is why people tend to use those.  Personally, the
only one I can tolerate at all is Lemon Ice; all the rest are too nasty to
choke down, even if I probably need it.  As people have said, make the stuff
half-strength.  When fighters are on the field and drinking a lot, they need
the water more, and full-strength can give them too many of the minerals
etc.  Yes, as some people pointed out, there are those who like to drink
pickle juice, so don't dump it out when pulling the pickles for snacks.
Keep it in the jar so it's easy to find when someone comes looking.

Some people prefer sekanjabin, which is basically a syrup of vinegar and
sugar and mint, but most fighters want to drink the stuff with potassium and
other minerals.  Of course, you should also have solid forms such as
pretzels, oranges, pickles, and if you have the funds, melon and grapes kept
on ice will be VERY popular if the sun and temperature are both up.

Be sure to have plenty of water, too!  I know that sounds obvious, but at
some sites with poor plumbing, you have to bring in enough fresh water to
keep everybody going.  Not just the fighters, be sure the waterbearers water
the marshalls - and themselves!  I've taught people, especially children,
that the rule is one-to-three (easy to remember!) - you take one drink for
every three people who get a drink from you.  And always drink before you
put up the jugs, for example if there is a "waterbearers in" during a melee,
when you come off the field, get another swing.  It's one thing when the
fighters go down from the heat - it's embarrassing when the waterbearers do
it.  <G>

                                            ---= Morgan

From: L T [ldeerslayer at yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 11:24 AM
To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Ansteorra] Dehydration

Looking briefly on the web...(though not that everything you
read on the web is true...) on sports medicine sites
current theory seems to be:

in regards to dehydration:

Water is fine for 1 hour or under of exercise
after that you need to alternate an electolyte
solution and water or take in electrolytes with
your water (i.e. pickles, oranges, etc)

apparently when the electolytes are out of balance
our bodies do not absorb the water the way they should.

They also suggest that caffine and alcohol (or any
diaretic) intake should be stopped 24 hours before heavy exercise....
(like I see THAT happening...especially at war... ;)
since those promote dehydration...

Potassium toxicity is rare even amongst the most active of atheletes.
It does happen though...especially in reaction to some medications
and risk increases if you have any impairment of the kidneys
(i.e. kidney disease, alcohol consumption...etc)

it's symptoms are:
muscle fatigue and cardiac arrythmia...

Lorraine

From: Tump Laird [tlaird at satx.rr.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 5:08 PM
To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Ansteorra] dehydration-Gatorade-water

It is difficult to get a lot of fighters to do this, but hydration BEFORE
the fighting starts is most important. I start about 2 hours before the
first battle and slowly drink 2-3 quarts, half Gatorade and half water, and
drink every time the water bearers come on the field. (I am usually
dehydrated from the previous nights revel, as well as not being in the best
physical condition-read fat and 42) If I maintain this ritual, I can fight
in all the battles, all day long.  If I don't, I fall out of the first, and
will be combat ineffective for the rest.  Push the liquids on the fighters
early.  At Gulf War I got reminded, even ordered by one unit commander to
drink plenty before the battles, especially the resurrection ones.  If you
feel a little bloated, and need to privy at least once every hour, then you
might just have enough. I have learned that lesson the hard way more than
once when I was in the infantry.

Botolf the Dane

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 20:36:21 -0400
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] food-grade water hose?

Call your local health department and ask if they have a source.

Or Google search under the following:
"food grade" plastic water hose
found several... they aren't cheap--

Actually I would call the RV shops in the area and talk to them. You
need these sorts of hoses for loading drinking water
when refilling the tanks on trailers and RV units.

Johnna Holloway  Johnnae llyn Lewis

jenne at fiedlerfamily.net wrote:> Help?>
> We have a bunch of people complaining that if we use a regular hose to
> bring water to the field for our big events, it tastes 'off' and funny.
> So, where can we get food-grade hoses (over 150 feet worth)?
> -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa

To: Sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 14:06:55 -0400
From: Morgana Abbey <morgana.abbey at juno.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] food-grade water hoses

Alternative:  rather than running about for such a hose, get an inline
water filter and add that into your water supply set-up.  We've been
using this set-up at Pennsic and various outdoor events for several
years.  Just be careful to get a filter with an opaque housing or make a
"cozy" for it.

Morgana

From: "Draco Somnus" <dracosomnus at katspit.net>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 08:47:45 GMT
Subject: [Sca-cooks] marriage proposals

A million years ago, when I was a waterbearer, the joke was that we could
tell when the temp went over triple digits. Our number of proposals
inclined sharply.

Lann
DracoSomnus Studios
Weaving Spinning and Costuming

Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 09:04:43 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Pixel, Goddess and Queen" <pixel at hundred-acre-wood.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] marriage proposals

> According to my girls, this is still true. Nothing quite like a sweaty
> fighter and a pretty teenaged waterbearer with huge... waterbottles. ;-D)
>
> 'Lainie

Most definitely. And you don't need to be pretty, teenaged, or female to
get a proposal when it's hot enough. I heard at least one fighter propose
to the guy carrying the bowl of pickles, one year.

Margaret

Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:43:24 -0400
From: "Phlip" <phlip at 99main.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Sugar free sports drink alternative
To: <SCA-Chirurgeon at yahoogroups.com>, "SCA-Cooks"
	<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>,	<ostgardr at lists.panix.com>
Cc: EKCooksGuild at yahoogroups.com, Trimariscookslist at yahoogroups.com,
	mk-cooks at midrealm.org, SCAFoodandFeasts at yahoogroups.com

To bring all interested parties up to speed, the recipe following is one I
rec'd from Ostgardr List a couple days ago. It was developed by Sir Omarad
of the Middle Kingdom, and I forwarded it on to Chirurgeon's List, to get
comments, and as a heads up if people are going to be using it.

The important point is that some people are allergic or sensitive to
alternative sweeteners, so I attempted to find out what the sweetener was in
Sugar Free Kool-Aid, and got the following reply from Kraft Foods:

"Kool-Aid mixed drink is available in a variety of flavors and several forms
including unsweetened, presweetened with sugar and presweetened with
NutraSweet . "

The recipe appears to be a good one (understanding, I'll drink water-
dislike artificial flavors, no matter how they're sweetened), and I think
that it might be quite useful to our diabetics, as well as others, if they
modify it to use the unsweetened Kool-Aid and the sweetener of their choice.
Please, though, make absolutely sure that if you use this, that the
recipients are aware that you're using an artificial sweetener, and which
one- we don't need fighters dropping on the field in anaphalactic shock!!!!

Helen, please pass this information back to Sir Omarad so that he is
reminded to tell people that they're getting an artificial sweetener.

And, please, always remember, that we dilute Gatorade to 50% strength,
because WATER is the most important ingredient.

> A recipe for home-made sugar-free Gatorade substitute came over another list
> this morning, credited to Sir Omarad of the Middle Kingdom.
>                            -Helen/Aidan
>
>> "I had researched sugar free sports drinks before and had come up with a lot
>> of recipes which all had a lot in common. This is the esiest I can find and
>> very closely resembles commercial gatorade/powerade without the sugar. The
>> Potassium can also be found in salt substitutes at the grocery store or
>> Potassium tablets can usually be found at any vitamin isle. Even Wal-mart
>> carries them.
>>
>> SUGAR-FREE "SPORTS DRINK"
>> 1 packet or container sugar-free drink mix like Kool-aid (enough to make 2
>> qts)
>> 1/4 tsp table salt (sodium chloride)
>> 4 potassium tablets (99 mg each) or salt sub. equivalent
>> 2 quarts water
>>
>> Take about 1/4 cup of the water and put in a cup with the potassium tablets.
>> Heat in the microwave until the water gets close to boiling. Stir to
>> dissolve the tablets. Add the salt and stir.
>> Put the drink mix in a pitcher, add water, and stir until the drink mix is
>> dissolved. Add the salt/potassium solution and mix thoroughly. Chill.
>> Per 8-oz serving:
>> 5 cal, about 75 mg sodium, 50 mg potassium.
>> To compare to other drinks:
>> -------------- Sodium ----- Potassium
>> Gatorade:----- 110 mg ------- 30 mg
>> All Sport:----- 55 mg ------- 50 mg
>> PowerAde:----- 55 mg ------- 30 mg"

Saint Phlip,
CoD

Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:38:13 -0400
From: "Phlip" <phlip at 99main.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: Sugar free sports drink alternative
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Have you tasted halved Gatorade? It's nasty.

It's nasty, no matter what strength you have it. When it starts tasting
good, you KNOW you're dehydrated.

> I have understood that you do not have to halve the Gatorade. Only 
> reason is if you are trying to save money.

Unfortunately, that is NOT the case. Gatorade, as it stands, provides too
much sugar and minerals. What your body is craving is water, pure and
simple. Unfortunately, plain water is not something many people will drink
willingly- they've been brought up to believe that sugary sweet flavored
stuff tastes good, so that's what they think they want when they're thirsty.

And, contrary to the school of opinion that thinks that a shortage of
electrolytes can lead to other problems, the circumstances under which
electrolyte shortage have been reported are far more extreme than our
fighters experience- like, towards the end of a hot summer's marathon- and
even then, most of the runners need water, rather than the electrolytes. A
balanced diet, plenty of water, and no hangover, with reasonably decent
physical condition are basically all our fighters need to battle to their
heart's content. If you were to come through Point when we're having a run
on heat stress victims, you'll discover, if you ask them, that every last
one of them, fighter or spectator, or simple passers by has shorted
themselves on at least one, and frequently more, of those things. You're
fine, generally, doing that sort of thing, if you don't additionally stress
your body with high unaccustomed environmental heat and lots of unaccustomed
exercise, but you'll be a patient if you don't take care of yourself- and
water is frequently the key.

> And there is a reason for having the water available along with the 
> sports drink.

Yep. Diabetics, and people like me who don't like sugared drinks.

> So I do not understand your statements reasoning.

Study the topic, as I have, and you might.

> I'm checking into a product by the makers of Emer'gen-C. It contains no
> sugars but I'm looking into what is the substitute.
>
> Lyse
>
> -----Original Message-----
> And, please, always remember, that we dilute Gatorade to 50% strength,
> because WATER is the most important ingredient.

Saint Phlip,
CoD

Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 02:01:28 -0400
From: John Kemker <john at kemker.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: Sugar free sports drink alternative
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

otsisto wrote:
> I'm checking into a product by the makers of Emer'gen-C. It contains no
> sugars but I'm looking into what is the substitute.
>
> Lyse

Alacer (http://www.alacercorp.com) Electro-MIX has no sugars or
substitutes, unless you consider Chromium aspartate the substitute.  It
has no warning concerning "Phenylketonurics" or other phenylalanine
warnings.

I've used it.  Have a box sitting right here on my desk.  It's not sweet
at all.  It's tart.  Puckery.  Very satisfying when I'm extremely
thirsty and need to rehydrate quickly.  As a diabetic, it's been my
"sports drink" of choice.

Their web site says the ingredients are "Citric Acid, Potassium
Bicarbonate, Calcium, Magnesium and Potassium Carbonates, Malic Acid,
Magnesium hydroxide, Manganese Gluconate, Chromium Aspartate, Natural
Flavors."

--Cian

Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:39:35 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sugar free sports drink alternative
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

I only drink Gatorade or its analogs when i actually *need* it. It
isn't meant to be an ordinary beverage, but to be drunk after great
physical exertion or in a situation with extreme (and i mean extreme)
heat or in which one has been perspiring excessively (and that's not
just a question of personal comfort).

Folks who think it tastes nasty have no need of it, not that it's
some kind of option. If Gatorade tastes bad, you should be drinking
water or juice, not Gatorade.

When Gatorade tastes good or innocuous, that's when you may actually  
need it.

Merely being in a situation that's unpleasantly hot or causing you to
perspire may not actually be extreme enough to cause you to *need*
Gatorade. You may be uncomfortable, but you may be fine.

I have actually needed Gatorade or its analog a few times.

Until recently i have been an actor at Renaissance fairs in
California, both the big mother-of-all-fairs, and small fairs, and
small fairs in Nevada. We are always careful to keep hydrated - we
just drink water or lemonade (ok, some others drink alcohol to
excess, but that's not me).

At "the big fair" in NoCal (now dead and gone) we had a few weekends
over 100 F. That actually doesn't bother me terribly if i'm in a
loose summer dress, but in thigh high cotton socks, below-knee cotton
bloomers (not period but to keep the dust out...), a farthingale, two
skirts, linen shift, corset, bodice (lined, interlined, and boned)
with long sleeves, coif and hat, it can get a bit warm. We had a big
drink dispenser "back-stage" with a Gatorade analog. We were
encouraged to taste it occasionally. If it tasted bad, we were
encouraged to drink water. If it tasted good or innocuous, we were
encouraged to drink it until it tasted bad.

Once at the Las Vegas fair, i was sure i'd been hydrating properly.
After fair, our "guild" got into our mundanes and went looking for
dinner. I mentioned to the guy who was giving me a ride that i was
thirsty. He offered Gatorade, i rejected it, he said to take a taste
- it was orange. I said, gee, that's odd, i don't remember Gatorade
tasting like watered-down Tang. He encouraged me to drink more,
since, in fact, it did NOT taste like watered-down Tang...

There's no reason for people to drink Gatorade or its analogs if they
don't need it - and when it tastes "nasty" they have no need of it.

It's only when it tastes like watered down Kool-Aid that you do need it.
-- 
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita

Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 23:35:14 -0400
From: "Phlip" <phlip at 99main.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Fw: [mk-cooks] Fwd: diet gatorade
To: <EKCooksGuild at yahoogroups.com>, <SCA-Chirurgeon at yahoogroups.com>,
	"SCA-Cooks" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>, <ostgardr at lists.panix.com>,
	<Trimariscookslist at yahoogroups.com>,
	<SCAFoodandFeasts at yahoogroups.com>

More from Sir Omarad on his Gatorade substitute.

> Omarad expanded a bit on his reasoning with the "diet gatorade". As he
states, feel free to pass this along to anyone who may be interested.
>
> Rachaol

> Subject: diet gatorade
>
> Please forward as necessary.
> I created that recipe with the fact in mind that I would be making my
> OWN gatorade so that I could avoid sugar in public gatorades.
> Half strength is fine and so is full strength but I find that slightly
> watered down is better with the sugary stuff because I always felt
> "sticky" when I just wanted to cleanse my palatte between battles. Full
> strength with the sugar free is much better in that regard. Your body
> just gets rid of any extra potassium or sodium it doesn't need. Most
> people really just need the water. The flavorings are just there to add
> flavor to water and make you think to drink it. Some recipes also added
> some citric acids, I added some vitamin C to my mix.
> Other recipes I found actually used fruit juices 50% with water 50%
> instead of sugar free kool aids. Some people prefer, or can handle,
> natural sugars but not refined sugars.
> There are TONS of brands of sugar free drinks with all kinds of
> artificial sweeteners from nutrasweet, to splenda, to the new one,
> sunnette. ( It's in Coke Zero. )
> BUT you can even just make a "Fortified water" and add potassium and
> sodium to your water if you don't handle sweeteners at all. A little
> lemon juice is nice too.
> For that matter people can use regular Kool-aid with sugar and just 
> make cheap bulk gatorade for events.
> I have used the sugar free strawberry "kool-aid" generic from WalMart
> and it was pretty darned good. I also used smuckers sugar free lemonade
> and it was deeeelicious. I've cut down my soda intake as well and as
> muich as I love my diet cokes I was just drinking waaaay too many for 
> my own good.
> I hope this helps anyone who may need a gatorade alternative for 
> dietary reasons.
> -Omarad
> PS- I've lost 23 pounds as of today. (4 1/2 weeks)

Saint Phlip,
CoD

From: Hillary Greenslade <hillaryrg at yahoo.com>
Date: January 6, 2006 9:53:44 PM CST
To: ansteorra <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Ansteorra] Hug a Waterbearer

Alina said: 
"On waterbearing, the great thing about doing it is everyone is always thankful as it gets really hot fighting especially when the battles go long. The only bad thing is the walking. After a while the water and gatorade bottles seem really heavy while walking back and forth and trying to quickly get to as many combatants as possible."

Well, since his Majesty Mahadi is about to take the thrown, I'll share a tale that was told to me from a former kingdom Waterbearer about one day Mahadi did Waterbearing.  I don't recall the reason he wasn't fighting, but Mahadi decided if he couldn't fight, he'd do Waterbearing to be near the action, but still participate.  

At the end of the day, Mahadi complained to the Head-Waterbearer 'I'm so much more tired than if I'd just fought today! and I learned something about Waterbearing.  While the fighters are resting, Waterbearers are on the field providing water. But, when the fighters are fighting again, Waterbearers are not resting - but they are refilling their bottles, cutting more oranges, getting ready for the next rest period - so they never stop working!'  A good lesson learned. 

Have you hugged your Waterbearers today!  
Cheers, Hillary 

(PS - don't forget to start saving 2 liter containers for Gulf Wars Waterbearers.)

From: "Zubeydah Jamilla al-Badawiyya" <zubeydah at northkeep.org>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: contact / non-contact waterbearing at wars
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 10:15:38 -0600

On the subject of waterbearing.

When I was at Estrella last weekend, there was a strong effort by some 
groups to provide non-contact waterbearing. To get water out on the field in 
bulk, the easiest method is 2 liter soda bottles with a 'squirt top' / 
'sport top' cap. This worked for some helm configurations, but not for 
others. I personally did not experience anyone asking for the old 'hose' 
style, but I heard at the station that others did.

I brought my personal gear, which is two 1000 ML chemical supply bottles 
that have an affixed pressure nozzle - it allows me to literally squirt the 
water in a smooth stream, with pretty good aim, into almost any helm. 
Despite saying the same phrase, "This is a non-contact bottle - please don't 
let it touch your lips" every time I handed it to a fighter, I still had 
people ignore me and muckle on to the nozzle and suck straight from the 
bottle. I had people pretend to tongue it, as well, simply to be 'cute.' 
(That bottle got retired from the field, whether it was full or empty and 
six guys waiting to drink, until such time as it was run through a 
sanitizing solution.)

I've been Ansteorra's Northern Regional waterbearer for the last two years, 
and have held over a dozen classes on our Kingdom's new standards on 
waterbearing. Most fighters in my area now recognize the style of bottle I've 
encouraged use of, and know what to expect. But what about the huge wars? 
How do we educate the masses of people who show up at a war?

If fighters want non-contact to be the standard at large scale wars (I don't 
think Pennsic is going N/C just yet - I believe Gulf Wars is), and contact 
to be the exception, what can be done from a WB standpoint and a Kingdom by 
Kingdom cultural standpoint, to increase training/awareness?

I know that the folks at Gulf War have been advertising their need for 
squirt tops and 2 liter bottles for months, posted a couple times on my 
Kingdom and regional lists, but haven't gotten much response from anyone 
other than waterbearers themselves.

Any suggestions? Thoughts? 

From: mmorley at uark.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: contact / non-contact waterbearing at wars
Date: 28 Feb 2006 06:52:45 -0800

Zubeydah Jamilla al-Badawiyya wrote:
> On the subject of waterbearing.
>*snip*
> If fighters want non-contact to be the standard at large scale wars (I don't
> think Pennsic is going N/C just yet - I believe Gulf Wars is), and contact
> to be the exception, what can be done from a WB standpoint and a Kingdom by
> Kingdom cultural standpoint, to increase training/awareness?
>*snip*

That's a pretty big if.  It's just not an issue a few miles east and
north of you.  Calontir has had straw/bucket waterbearing for the last
*cough*  years and no large scale movement or consensus to change.  We
provide lots of manpower for waterbearing at many wars around the
continent and are perfectly happy "doing it our way".  We're happy
enough that straws and jugs get brought to GW so that we don't have to
mess with helmet removal and being sprayed in the face/neck/eye. I'm
pretty happy with the culture of swapping spit and feel no need to
change.  I often wave off n/c waterbearers because it's just too much
hassle and attitude.

> Any suggestions? Thoughts?

Decide what's important to you.  Do it your way.  Don't be upset when
people don't agree with you.

]\/[arcus who prefers hydration over sterilization

Subject: Re: contact / non-contact waterbearing at wars
From: "Richard Sutton" <deltaprime at NOSPAMparadise.net.nz>
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 09:38:56 +1300
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

> is.  Was there a push for it among the fighters?  It strikes me as
> unlikely that such fastidiousness is widespread among them.  Has there
> been any reasonably documented problem of communicable disease
> spreading this way?  Or does it just seem like a good idea?

In New Zealand, Meningitis is a problem and kills a few otherwise fit and
healthy young people each year. It kills very quickly unless treatment is
sought and the problem is correctly diagnosed (instead of just "it is only
the flu/cold, go home and have a rest", if this happens, the rest is usually
permanent). One of the sources of infection is swapping drink bottles at
sports events etc. There are major TV advertising campaigns to discourage
swapping drink bottles. So there are good reasons for non contact water
bottles.

Cheers

Gilbert de Montfort

From: Heather Rose Jones <heather.jones at earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: contact / non-contact waterbearing at wars
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 05:07:33 GMT

Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> Richard Sutton <deltaprime at NOSPAMparadise.net.nz> wrote:
> 
>>>is.  Was there a push for it among the fighters?  It strikes me as
>>>unlikely that such fastidiousness is widespread among them.  Has there
>>>been any reasonably documented problem of communicable disease
>>>spreading this way?  Or does it just seem like a good idea?
>>
>>In New Zealand, Meningitis is a problem and kills a few otherwise fit and
>>healthy young people each year. It kills very quickly unless treatment is
>>sought and the problem is correctly diagnosed (instead of just "it is only
>>the flu/cold, go home and have a rest", if this happens, the rest is usually
>>permanent). One of the sources of infection is swapping drink bottles at
>>sports events etc. There are major TV advertising campaigns to discourage
>>swapping drink bottles. So there are good reasons for non contact water
>>bottles.
> 
> Interesting.  I haven't heard of this happening in the US.
> Perhaps I just haven't been paying attention?  Or is there some
> strain of meningitis prevalent in NZ, easily transmitted by
> saliva, that hasn't reached North America yet?

I think that would be "haven't been paying attention". 
There was a meningitis outbreak at a Bay Area school 
sometime in the last half dozen years (IIRC) that was traced 
to shared water bottles at a sports event.  (I'm not having 
any luck turning up a link, but I remember it being in the 
news.)

Tangwystyl
-- 
Heather Rose Jones
heather at heatherrosejones.com
<http://heatherrosejones.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: djheydt at kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
Subject: Re: contact / non-contact waterbearing at wars
Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd.
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 01:14:31 GMT

Zebee Johnstone  <zebeej at gmail.com> wrote:
>In rec.org.sca on Thu, 2 Mar 2006 20:56:50 GMT
>Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt at kithrup.com> wrote:
>> So maybe non-contact watering is a good idea, at that, and we
>> need to figure out ways of implementing it.  Disposable straws,
>> maybe, and paper cups into which the waterbearer pours the water?
>> She'd need to wear a trash sack over her shoulder, but the trash
>> would be light.

Is there a risk if each fighter has own bit of hose?  
Unfortunately, I have the feeling that the last sip in the straw,
that got as far as the fighter's lips but he didn't swallow it,
could drain back into the bottle before it was removed therefrom
and contaminate it anyway.  Unless the waterbearer removed the
hose from the bottle while the fighter was still sucking and let
him drain it dry.  I also wonder where he'd keep it -- wrapped
around his helm maybe? -- while he was fighting.

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                         Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West                               Albany, California
PRO DEO ET REGE                               djheydt at kithrup.com

From: "Richard Sutton" <deltaprime at NOSPAMparadise.net.nz>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: contact / non-contact waterbearing at wars
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 10:50:46 +1300

> traveled by railroad, drunk from the water cooler, and later
> developed a sore on her mouth.  "The infection later proved to be
> of an unmentionable nature."  In other words, syphilis, which
> unlike other STDs is transmittable by other means than sexual
> contact.

Cold sores or herpes would be another good reason not to share water
bottles. They are painful and annoying and easily transmitted through
contact (plus the virus is for life too).

Cheers

Gilbert de Montfort

From: "Richard Sutton" <deltaprime at NOSPAMparadise.net.nz>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: contact / non-contact waterbearing at wars
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 14:11:13 +1300

> In New Zealand, Meningitis is a problem and kills a few otherwise fit and
> healthy young people each year. It kills very quickly unless treatment is
> sought and the problem is correctly diagnosed (instead of just "it is only
> the flu/cold, go home and have a rest", if this happens, the rest is usually
> permanent). One of the sources of infection is swapping drink bottles at
> sports events etc. There are major TV advertising campaigns to discourage
> swapping drink bottles. So there are good reasons for non contact water
> bottles.

Here are some interesting links regarding this, makes you think before you
drink.....
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3590895a10,00.html
http://www.moh.govt.nz/meningococcal
http://www.moh.govt.nz/moh.nsf/wpg_index/About-Meningococcal+Disease+FAQs#4

Cheers

Gilbert de Montfort

From: tmcd at panix.com (Tim McDaniel)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: contact / non-contact waterbearing at wars
Date: 26 Feb 2006 14:35:04 -0600

Zubeydah Jamilla al-Badawiyya <zubeydah at northkeep.org> wrote:
>I brought my personal gear, which is two 1000 ML chemical supply
>bottles that have an affixed pressure nozzle - it allows me to
>literally squirt the water in a smooth stream, with pretty good aim,
>into almost any helm.  Despite saying the same phrase, "This is a
>non-contact bottle - please don't let it touch your lips" every time
>I handed it to a fighter, I still had people ignore me and muckle on
>to the nozzle and suck straight from the bottle.

I have no experience with waterbearing, especially not with those
"pressure nozzles", but would it be possible to hold your hand up
near / beside / in front of the nozzle, so that if they lunge for it,
you can push them back?  I suppose your hand might get tired, though.

>(That bottle got retired from the field, whether it was full or empty
>and six guys waiting to drink, until such time as it was run through
>a sanitizing solution.)

In that position, if I had the energy, I might loudly point out to the
others the person who was responsible for them not getting your water.

Dannet de Lincoln

From: Gretchen Beck <grm at andrew.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: contact / non-contact waterbearing at wars
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 12:48:34 -0500
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

--On Sunday, February 26, 2006 10:15 AM -0600 Zubeydah Jamilla al-Badawiyya 
<zubeydah at northkeep.org> wrote:

> How do we educate the masses of people who show up at a war?

Work with the marshalate. Talk them into making "this is the kind of water 
bottle you'll be seeing on the field, here's how it works. Don't put your 
mouth on it" a part of armor inspection at the war.  Adds a few seconds to 
inspection, and insures that each fighter individually gets informed not to 
touch the water bottle.  Add a reminder about the water to the 
crys/announcements from the heralds.

Good luck!  I'm not a water bearer, but I am interested in ways people 
communicate information. When you decide how to communicate this at large 
wars, please let me know what you're doing and how it works. It'll probably 
turn out to be something of general use in other fields as well.

toodles, margaret

From: Chris Zakes <moondrgn at earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: contact / non-contact waterbearing at wars
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2006 14:01:45 GMT

On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 01:39:22 -0500,  an orbital mind-control laser
caused Terri <nothingbutadame at inthe.sca.org> to write:

>Wouldn't this all just become Moot if folks took care of themselves
>and brought their own water? Are we not setting ourselves and others
>up for problems by encouraging fighters and watchers to feel that they
>have the right to expect others to cater to their needs?
>   I grant you that it's easy to drop from heat exhaustion on a
>battlefield in the sun - but I doubt that the water, pickles, oranges,
>and other items currently being viewed as "required" items provided by
>'staff' are doing more than saving a few and teaching the many that
>they can be irresponsible.
>
>Hrothny

<shrug> I *always* bring my own fluids to events, and almost always
have some waiting at the side of the field. But...

If I'm in the middle of fighting or marshalling a melee and a long
"hold" is called, it's a lot more convenient to have a waterbearer
offer me something to drink than to have to walk off the field and get
it myself. 
Imagine a large "hold" on the field at Pennsic or Gulf War or
Estrella: everybody heads off the field to their coolers to grab a
drink. Now a) how do you make sure everybody gets back to the spot
they left, *without* taking tactical advantage of the confusion to
reform lines and suchlike? and b) how do you make sure *everybody*
makes it back onto the field in a reasonable time? (A five-minute
water break evolves into a twenty-minute bathroom break, which evolves
into a forty five-minute snack break, which evolves into a two-hour
lunch break, which evolves into a four-hour shopping trip, and you may
as well call off the melee at that point.)

Alternatively, you could just not allow the fighters to leave the
field for water, which gets us right back to the problem of
overheating and heat exhaustion--been there, done that. Anybody
remember the woods battle at Gulf War 1?

I don't see this as encouraging folks to be irresponsible, any more
than having chirurgeons on-site is irresponsible. I see it as a
further resource *in addition* to what I bring on my own.

	-Tivar Moondragon
		Ansteorra

From: Galen of Ockham <galen at chirurgeon.org>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: contact / non-contact waterbearing at wars
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2006 23:59:29 GMT

>It's been many years since I fought, much less at wars, and nowadays I
>rarely even watch the battles.  This is the first I've heard of
>non-contact waterbearing.  I have to wonder what the motivation for it
>is.  Was there a push for it among the fighters?  It strikes me as
>unlikely that such fastidiousness is widespread among them.  Has there
>been any reasonably documented problem of communicable disease
>spreading this way?  Or does it just seem like a good idea?

I can shed some light on this.

Non-contact waterbearing has been a grass-roots effort of the 
waterbearers and a few Chirurgeons in several Kingdoms. It has 
especially been implemented at Gulf Wars.

The reasoning behind it is the increased awareness of the transmission 
of disease by body fluids. Now in your standard body fluid protection 
course, they state that saliva is not a worry. That is true if you are 
talking about skin contact. When you are drinking after someone, you are 
having direct contact with the mucous membranes in the mouth. If you're 
the nth person to drink from a communal bottle, then you have 
essentially just kissed n-1 people - and just look at that ugly bugger 
who drank just before you!!!

We are not worried about AIDS spreading this way, but there have been 
documented outbreaks of bacterial meningitis from sports bottles. Less 
well documented, but entirely probably are hepatitis A, herpes, 
tuberculosis, colds, and influenza to name some of the more common 
ailments. It is hard to document many of theses because they are not 
unusual diseases and the incubation period means you will come down with 
them sometime after the event and the exposed populace have spread to 
the four winds.

With non-contact waterbearing, we are pushing a system that helps to 
protect the health of the populace. The more common things we’re 
preventing aren’t serious, but are an annoyance and can cause missed 
work. Some, like meningitis and hepatitis can be fatal or chronic 
diseases that cannot be cured. We have the capability of providing water 
to our fighters without risking the transmission of disease. Doesn’t it 
make sense that we should take advantage of it?

Galen of Ockham, MC, OP
(MKA Keith E. Brandt, MD, MPH)

From: Galen of Ockham <galen at chirurgeon.org>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: contact / non-contact waterbearing at wars
Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 22:53:44 GMT

Robert Uhl wrote:
> Are there any figures to support the idea that disease transmission via
> shared water has been at all common at SCA events?

As I stated, it is next to impossible to get hard data on the subject 
since the populace disperses before they would come down with most bugs. 
There are anecdotal reports of increased colds following events, and 
there have been full outbreaks of things such as "Pennsic Plague".

The costs are pretty neutral. Instead of buying tubing, you're buying 
bottles or just squirt tops (which are reusable assuming they are 
properly cleansed with bleach solution, as should the tubes used for 
contact waterbearing). Of the groups implementing the non-contact 
system, cost has never been raised as a barrier.

Galen

Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 02:29:10 -0500
From: "otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pennsic weather
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

-----Original Message-----
Jadwiga replied to me with:
<<<
>  Or even one a few years
> ago when the waterbearers were making periodic rounds of the class  
> tents as well as the field.

<That was a one-time event, and the waterbearers are apparently not  
allowed to do it any more. >>>

This doesn't sound right. Rules are that you give liquid to the fighters and
the spectators, basically to anyone that needs it. Perhaps one has said to
focus their waterbearing in the fighting areas but they can not forbid a WB
from going to the tents to see if their is a need. I have sent this
statement to the SCA WB list to see if this is true or myth. It is possible
since the person in charge changes from year to year and for one year the
person in charge made the decision. Pennsic WB does not have a large budget,
this years WB in charge made the decision to cut back on the Gatorade in
order to purchase more drink coolers (they are envisioning a set up like
what Meridies have at Gulf Wars).

  <<< if you see one, and it's running
low, consider taking it up to Chirugeons' and refilling it from the  
Cow. >>>

Why Chirurgeon's point? Would it not be WB point?

Lyse

Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 04:13:17 -0400
From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pennsic weather
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

>  <<< if you see one, and it's running
> low, consider taking it up to Chirugeons' and refilling it from the  
> Cow. >>>
>
> Why Chirurgeon's point? Would it not be WB point?

Because that is where the Water Bearers get their water, and it is
close to the Class tents. The cow is a series of water filters,
making the well water more acceptable for drinking.

Ranvaig

From: Elaine Manyoki <emanyoki at yahoo.com>
Date: May 30, 2008 1:43:20 PM CDT
To: trimaris-temp at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [tri-temp] Re: was..Weather for TMT..but now about gatorade

Red Gatorade is frowned upon because it is sometimes difficult to see the difference between it and blood in some folks, (although blood usually looks like coffee grounds)...red is one of the worst color additives for food/drink allergies..it will also send someone who is adhd flying, which is why I never gave it to any of my kids..

It is always a good idea to tell someone you are carrying gatorade AND water, since there are some, like me, who are allergic to gatorade. 

Katya  

Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 18:50:38 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Waterbearing
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Here's the official announcement from sca.org

Johnnae

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Patrick Anderson <president at sca.org>
Date: Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 10:57 AM
Subject: [Announcements] Waterbearing proposal request for comments
To: announcements at sca.org

/>From the President, Patrick Anderson: /

Earlier this year, I was asked by several people in the waterbearing
community to examine the various laws of states and countries related to
waterbearing as an organized and official activity of the SCA, Inc.
Various states have informed officers of the SCA, Inc. that while our
activity does not directly violate the food codes or health regulations
of their states, if there were to be an outbreak of illness, the SCA,
Inc. could be held liable for that outbreak. Several health care
professionals and attorneys have reviewed this topic and agree with this
assessment.

I was asked to examine the best way to both ensure a safe fighting
environment for our fighters, and to comply with the various state and
country laws. The relevant laws vary from state by state, county by
county and country by country. I determined that the best way to do this
would be to make "waterbearing" unofficial and unsanctioned by the SCA,
Inc. and proposed this change to the Board. The only other option would
be to regulate waterbearing, and to regulate it such that it follows the
various food safety codes of the various states and countries the SCA
participates in. This would be unwieldy, impractical and expensive for
the SCA to do. Further, it is likely that waterbearers would not be able
to continue to serve our fighters using any of the current methods of
waterbearing.

The proposal put before the membership for comment would stop
waterbearing by any SCA branch or other official group. The SCA would
not have an office of waterbearer at any level. Marshals would still be
permitted to allow waterbearers on the field, but any waterbearing must
not be done by any officially sanctioned or regulated groups of the SCA.
Households are welcome to provide water to fighters, as are unofficial
and unrecognized "guilds". This does not bar groups from putting out the
"serve yourself water coolers" at events. (In my Kingdom they are
usually the big orange cylinders.)

The Board and Corporate officers understand that many people have spent
time waterbearing within the official framework, and now hope that you
continue to volunteer unofficially. This proposal has been brought to
enable fighters to continue to have a waterbearing service provided to
them, without the extremely strict governance that official waterbearing
will require.

The actual text of the proposed rule is below. This rule has not yet
been approved by the Board, and is being sent out for comment here. The
Directors request comments from the membership regarding this proposed
revision no later than October 1st, 2008. Please send them to:
Corpora Revision
SCA Inc.
Box 360789
Milpitas CA, 95036
email: comments at sca.org

Thank you for commenting.

Patrick Anderson
President, Society for Creative Anachronism, Inc.

Proposed language to be added to Corpora:
The activity of providing beverages to combatants and spectators at SCA
Combat activities is not regulated, warranted, organized, controlled, or
sanctioned by the SCA, Inc. or any affiliate or subsidiary entity. All
warrants, authorizations, or other formal recognition of this activity
are by publication of this change revoked. This document does not either
address or restrict such volunteer activity or the methods by which it
occurs.

--
Patrick Anderson
President
Society for Creative Anachronism, Inc.
president at sca.org
952-412-4112
Comments are strongly encouraged and can be sent to:
SCA Inc.
Box 360789
Milpitas,  CA 95036
You may also email comments at lists.sca.org.
This announcement is an official informational release by the Society
for Creative Anachronism , Inc.  Permission is granted to reproduce
this announcement in its entirety in newsletters, websites and
electronic mailing lists.

From: Hillary Greenslade <hillaryrg at yahoo.com>
Date: June 25, 2008 4:13:22 PM CDT
To: ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Calontir waterbearing

<<< Though I was quite taken aback by the contact water-bearing, I surmise that
Calontir's culture of camaraderie and esprit de corps lends itself to such a
practice. I will definitely be going back, though I will take steps to insure my own water. :-)
Baron Armand Dragonetti >>>

My understanding is that Calontir is determined not to offer ONLY non-contact waterbearing, in deference to the fighters who have closed face helms and couldn't get the squirt-tops in to a mouth opening that didn't exist or was too small. They offer both choices, and I can understand that.  

The thought is that it's the fighters choice to use contact or non-contact, and the fighter knows the consequences of that choice.  But, as a waterbearer, Calontiri are going to get the water into the fighter, whichever choice was made.  So, they still offer contact waterbearing (with a plastic straw to slurp up the water though the face plate) AND non-contact.   

If at Lillies this year they only offered the one (non-contact), then that's wrong.   

Hillary

From: Hugh & Belinda Niewoehner <burgborrendohl at valornet.com>
Date: June 25, 2008 6:14:53 PM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Calontir waterbearing

Guten Tag,

This goes back to a perennial problem everywhere...volunteers (or lack thereof). 
I heard the head waterbearer on Monday say he just didn't have enough people to carry regular jugs and non-contact.  Therefore they had the non-contact bottles filled and ready, 2 per shoulder bag, but they did not actually carry them out onto the field.   For those who have not been to Lilies the farthest you'd have to walk (worst case) is about 75-100 yards.  For the ressurection battles a lady who required a scooter for mobility utilized the cargo basket on the back to make water runs to and from the main water point to the res. points.

Note,  they sterilized the jugs and tubes between each refill.   A few years ago there was a discussion on the Calonet about the contact/non-contact thing and  it was postulated by someone (IIRC a doctor) that the odds of passing something was statistically insignificant.   If the choices are hydration vs. passing a potentially communicable disease, dehydration was the greater threat to the health of the participant.  Those with compromised immune systems know that fact and generally plan for it by having their own supply.

In my case, I just don't feel that I get enough water through a little squirt nozzle.  I have a fairly large water jug with a large pouring spout that I keep with my gear.  Fortunately the Lilies battlefield is close to the shade flys provided for an armoring area.   In a pinch, yeah I'll used the bottles with the straws.  If you pay attention, you can grab a bearer who is just arriving with a freshly filled jug.  As Hillary said.   Like it or not they're going to make sure they get water to you.    The choice is yours.

Armand,  glad you had a good time.  Some of the scenarios sounded a little weird but all in  all it was a lot of fun.   The shepherds vs. villagers was a blast.  And to get a ride on Yrsa was the cream on the cake. 
Regards,

   Damon Hroarsson, HE Borrendöhl

Dragonetti wrote:
<<< They offered both. But I only saw the straws in gallon jugs being carried to
the fighters by the water-bearers. For squirt-top water, the fighters were
invited to trek over to the water bearers station (not terribly far), where
they were available.

-=Armand=- >>>

From: Tim McDaniel <tmcd at panix.com>
Date: August 26, 2008 4:22:54 PM CDT
To: Barony of Bryn Gwlad <bryn-gwlad at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Bryn-gwlad] Hydration

<http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/diet.fitness/08/26/cl.get.fluids/index.html>
is an interesting article on getting enough water.  It mentions, in
part, that food provide more or less water (depending on type and
cooking).  I was also struck by these paragraphs:

    Caffeine considerations

    You may have heard about the dehydrating effects of caffeine. But
    leading health authorities including the Institute of Medicine and
    the American College of Sports Medicine say that's a myth. While
    caffeine does signal our kidneys to rid our bodies of excess
    water, it does so for only a short time, so we still retain more
    fluid than we lose after sipping a caffeinated beverage.

    The Institute of Medicine reports caffeinated beverages contribute
    to our daily water needs as much as noncaffeinated drinks. In a
    study published in 2007 in the International Journal of Sport
    Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism, when researchers asked cyclists
    to bike for two-plus hours under hot, humid conditions, they found
    a caffeine-infused sports drink was as hydrating as a traditional
    sports drink.

Daniel de Lindonio will probably prefer water anyway, just because he
thinks it tastes more refreshing
-- 
Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com

From: Richard Threlkeld <rjt at softwareinnovation.com>
Date: February 15, 2009 2:04:17 PM CST
To: <vmarsh at twmarsh.net>, "'Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA,  Inc.'" <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Sad Kingdom Law Change

Actually, this was debated and discussed greatly through most of 2008 on the
Chirurgeon and Waterbearer lists and some on other lists. I was against it,
but I have to admit there was a lot of transparency. Most people discussing
it missed the point, however. It was not liability per se. It was the
actions of the modern bureaucracies (particularly in Texas). 

In Texas, they were tasked by the legislature to investigate and regulate
the furnishing of food (and water was defined as a food by FDA regulations)
to others whether for profit or not. They were not given any money to do
this. They were told they could investigate if there was one complaint and
must investigate if there were more than one. They tried to charge the costs
to the complainer, but that had the undesirable side effect of dampening
(ignore the pun) complaints. So the only one left is the one being
investigated. So the cost of the investigation is put on the group or
individual being investigated whether or not they turn out to have done
anything wrong. That cost is usually over $10,000 for the investigator's
time, lab work, site visits, interviews, etc.

They don't go after individuals (so far), but they do go after organized
groups including church groups, scout groups, and other non-profits (like
us). That is a lot of cost when you have done nothing wrong.

Other states and countries had similar issues. Since feasts were done
individually by the head cooks who were not doing a warranted function of
the group at the time, the food was furnished and prepared by individuals
(even though the money was advanced and collected by the group). This ruling
puts water bearers in approximately the same position. Of course, any good
lawyer will try to sue the SCA if they sue the cooks/water bearers, but
suing is not the question here. The regulatory structure did not follow that
logic (or illogic).

Note the Seneschal is still responsible for enforcing whatever laws are
applicable at the site of any SCA event. So they must enforce food (and
water) sanitation regulations, general health regulations, etc. Whether they
know the applicable laws is another matter. They may choose to ask people
who have training from whatever source to help with water bearing and allow
them to use local group supplies to ensure their event is not breaking laws
- or not. But a warranted officer is not in charge of the actual providing
of water as part of their job as an officer of the SCA.

In service,
Caelin on Andrede

From: "Jay Rudin" <rudin at ev1.net>
Date: February 17, 2009 9:58:29 AM CST
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Ansteorra] Water-bearing and legal risks

Pooky asked:
<<< Sure we can say let them fight and hydrate (or not) at their own risk
that way the Society be less culpable, but here is where my lack of
modern understanding comes to query, is Society even more at legal
risk for permitting an activity and purposely not providing a crucial
safety feature like hydration when the cause and effect is so clear
cut? >>>

The answer is a lot longer than this, and involves the history of legal cases and modern bureaucracy, but the short, easy, sorta-vaguely true answer is that if private individuals help people, then that is a private act -- nobody's business but their own.  But if a corporation says that they are going to heklp them, then it's a public commitment, that the people can depend on and the state can regulate.  If officers of the corporation provide water 99 times out of 100, then when somebody gets dehydrated that 100th time at a small, new shire's first event, it's because the fighter didn't bring water because he knew the SCA would do it.

By giving water officially, we have said that people can depend on us. Then, if we're not perfect, people will be hurt because of our failure.

Add to that the fact that serving food and water is regulated by the state. If the state regulatory board hears that we are doing something unsafe --  say, letting more than one person drink out of the same bottle -- they can start an investigation AND MAKE US PAY THEIR COSTS.  Even if we did nothing wrong.  Even if they prove we did nothing wrong.

The annoying people avoiding responsibility for their own actions here isn't the SCA corporation -- it's the state of Texas.

Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin

P.S.  I repeat, the real answer is much more complex than this, and I don't claim to know it all.  The above discussion is incomplete, not exactly accurate, and untrustworthy.  It's still pretty close to sorta kinda vaguely in the same ballpark as the truth. 

From: Ysabeau <lady.ysabeau at gmail.com>
To: Barony of Bryn Gwlad <bryn-gwlad at lists.ansteorra.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 1, 2009 11:48:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Bryn-gwlad] Squirty nozzles?

I don't know that you can buy the squirty nozzles individually. I usually buy a case of bottles with them and then reuse them. I'm going to be going to Costco this afternoon to buy a case so I'll make sure I get the ones with the squirt tops.
 
Ysabeau

On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 11:42 AM, Zach Most <clermont1348 at yahoo.com> wrote:
<<< I'm thinking my daughter might enjoy helping out the war company at 3 Queens by keeping folks hydrated, but she has no gear to do it.  Where can you buy the squirty nozzles that the water bearers use on their bottles?
 Gaston >>>

From: "Ld. Alfred" <wararcher at yahoo.com>
Date: October 2, 2009 12:09:45 PM CDT
To: Barony of Bryn Gwlad <bryn-gwlad at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Bryn-gwlad] Squirty nozzles?

Actually, you can buy the squirt tops - if you want to buy in lots of 50 (that is what the manufacturer I bought them from sells them by when I set up the current waterbearing equipment).  The main thing to remember in re-using squirt caps is that not all bottle water sellers use the same type of caps - the threads are different.  For example, the "sports cap" on an Ozarka body may not fit a Desani bottle, etc, etc.  If the threads are mis-matched, you could be in for a soggy surprise when too much pressure is applied.

Alfred

<the end>

Edited by Mark S. Harris	waterbearing-msg	Page  of