rosaries-msg - 7/14/17

Period rosaries and their use. Making rose beads.

NOTE: See also the files: beads-msg, jewelry-msg, beadwork-msg, relics-msg,  icons-msg, Icons-art, Relics-fr-all-art, saints-msg.

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From: sclark at epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rosary/Paternoster
Date: 1 Jul 1994 19:49:15 GMT
Organization: University of Toronto -- EPAS

Greetings...
	Uh oh.  There's a problem here.  Most sources I have seen
date the invention of the rosary (the thing, particularly, but
perhaps also the prayer) to the 13th century, possibly by St.
Dominic.  It doesn't really take off in poplarity until the 14th
century.  (This is what I remember from Joe Goering's Popular
Religion course at U of T.  He generally knows what he's talking about.)
	You might be in better shape with paternoster beads, though
I know very little about these at all.

Cheers--
Nicolaa/Susan
Canton of Eoforwic
sclark at epas.utoronto.ca


From: shepherdss at aol.com (Shepherdss)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rosary/Paternoster
Date: 8 Jul 1994 18:38:06 -0400

lmbabik at rocdec.roc.wayne.edu (Lisamarie Gemma Babik) writes:

>However, given that rosaries were initially just beads upon which to
>count prayers, why not make your own?

>Or, if glass beads are out of the question (period), knotted string,
>pebbles, wood beads, wound bits of cloth, etc. might do the trick...

One of the nicest rosaries I've ever seen was worn by John the Heretic. 
The cross was two rough stick tied together with a leather thong which was
knoted at the appropriate intervals

Anne Elizabeth


From: CATHERINE_CHILTON at sagepub.COM (CATHERINE_CHILTON)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Rosary
Date: 7 Jul 1994 18:23:36 -0400

          I haven't had time to read a lot of digests lately, so
          forgive me if I repeat previously given info. Rosaries
          weren't standardized until quite late, possibly OOP (I need
          to do more checking to make sure). My Webster's 10th dates
          the _word_ rosary at 1547, but of course you can read of
          "bedesmen" much earlier. In early paintings you'll note that
          the beads on the girdles of women and religious are not
          divided in any way, they're just strings of beads, possibly
          with the addition of a cross. The fact is that there was
          no standardization of kind of prayers, number of prayers,
          whether more than one kind of prayer was used and, if so,
          when, or what to think about when praying (if anything)
          until very late (once again, I have no date yet).

          Some saints' stories mention the rosary, but none I've seen
          give any indication of what interests us here. One period
          tale has a nun boasting of doing 50 rosaries every day until
          Our Lady appeared to her and told her very kindly to please
          cut it down to 5 and _think_ about it.

                          Sor Maria Catalina de la Encarnacion


From: CATHERINE_CHILTON at sagepub.COM (CATHERINE_CHILTON)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Rosary/Paternoster
Date: 9 Jul 1994 22:47:00 -0400

          Knotted string or leather is very period indeed -- I think
          it's still being used as a counting device in some Third
          World countries! Wood beads were predominant. There's always
          pottery. If you want to show off a little wealth, a gemstone
          rosary is nice, or solid gold or silver (pray as you
          polish!). I like rose beads the best, though: beads actually
          made from rose petals. The ones I made lost their scent in a
          few months, but this just encourages me to make more (I
          understand you can refresh the scent by adding a little rose
          oil, but this seems like cheating to me).

          Incidentally -- has anyone ever actually timed a Latin Ave
          or Pater to see how long it takes to say them? I'd know a
          lot better how long to stir things in medieval recipes.

                                  Sor Maria Catalina de la Encarnacion


From: Phyllis_Gilmore at rand.org (Phyllis Gilmore)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Philippa is not a brat
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 94 12:15:55 GMT
Organization: RAND

CATHERINE_CHILTON at sagepub.COM (CATHERINE_CHILTON) wrote:
>I thank you, Sor Maria Catalina, for your kind words!

I actually own several rosaries.  The one I was referring to is
sterling silver and crystal.  What's different is that a portrait
of Our Lady appears on the crucifix, at the crossing, behind 
Our Lord.  The "medal" at the point where the circle part joins the
pendant part depicts Veronica's Veil.  

The Franciscan Crown is a seven-decade rosary.  My brain is dead on
exactly what they specific Mysteries are, but I think they're the
Joyful mysteries plus two.  Mine is cheap plastic, with a wooden
cross, which I keep in the car (no, NOT hanging from the rear-view
mirror!!!).  I'm told that this particular version of the rosary is
extremely old (someone said, but this could be legend or wishful
thinking, that St. Francis created this version--but I can't find
anything in print).

I've also seen a 15-decade rosary, for the truely dedicated who say
the whole thing all at once.  Most of the shorter bead strings are
called chaplets (although the rosary is itself a chaplet) and are
usually invented by some pious association or another.

The book with insufficient references is:  M. Basil Penningtion,
Praying by Hand:  Rediscovering the Rosary as a Way of Prayer, Harper San
Francisco, 1991.  And I quote:

    "Legend tells us that it was the Blessed Virgin Mary herself 
who gave Saint Dominic the rosary as we know it in the West, 
when she appeared tohim during his labors to convert the 
Albigensian heretics.  Although this legend was introduced 
into the life of Dominic some two centuries after his death 
(in a late-fifteenth-century life of Saint Dominic by Alan de
la Roche,  . . . It also attests to the fact that the rosary as 
we know it is the product of a gradual evolution.
    It began as the layperson's psalter.  . . .  The psalms were
too complicated for many of the more simple, so a "psalter" of 
150 Paters ("Our Fathers") was conceived, along with a string of 
beads to count them.
    Besides the canonical office prescribed by the rule, most 
monasteries also celebrated a "little office" of the Blessed 
Virgin Mary each day.  So it is not surprising that a "psalter
of Mary" quickly found its place alongside that of the Paters. 
The Paters were replaced by the angelic salutation taken from 
the Gospel of St. Luke:  Ave, Maria, gratia plena.  Dominus tecum
 . . . .  In the twelfth century "Blessed are you among women, and 
blessed is the fruit of your womb" . . . began to be added. . . .
The second part of the Hail Mary  . . . came into common usage only
in the sixteenth century."

Taken from pages 8 and 9--and there's more both before and after
this bit.  Typos are mine.

Philippa

******************************************
SCA:  Philippa de Ecosse, Lyondemere, Caid  
mka:  Phyllis Gilmore, Santa Monica and Torrance, CA


From: david.razler at compudata.com (DAVID RAZLER)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Period Rosaries
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 95 01:28:00 -0400
Organization: Compu-Data BBS -=- Turnersville, NJ -=- 609-232-1245

M >? at FROM   :margritt at mindspring.com                                     N

M >Good Gentles:

M >I'm looking for more information on period rosaries/pater nosters/prayer
M >beads.  I've read some very general information on the subject, but I
M >would particularly like info on specific examples you have seen or read
M >about- on the number and order of beads, the materials used to make 
M >beads,
M >how they were strung together (using wire/string/leather/or what?), what
M >prayers were said with them, and anything else that seems pertinent.

M >Thanks for your help.

M >-Margritte (margritt at mindspring.com)

M'lady:
   Try contacting the Met. Museum of Art, NYC - it has a collection of 
central Rosary beads that'll leave you standing in front of them and staring 
for an hour or more in awe over their construction - the entire Crucifixion 
in a hinged, little (4"diam.) sphere, 30 or 40 separate layers of 
micro-sculpture.

   Don't matter what your personal religion, one cannot help but be knocked 
over by these works of art. The best is in the Cloisters newly-renovated 
Treasury, but I believe there are more, and a call may gain you access to 
the research collection and experts.

                                        Aleksandr the Traveller
                                      [david.razler at compudata.com]


From: sniderm at mcmail2.cis.McMaster.CA (Mike Snider)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Rosaries
Date: 18 Apr 1995 23:16:59 -0400
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.

Greetings Cousin,
  I have a photo I took of an English effigy (late 1300s) which depicts a 
rosary terminating in a tassel, worn from the lady's belt. Only a portion 
of it shows from beneath her sideless surcoat, so I believe this to be a 
practice, rather than a show of loyalties. The date of the carving also 
predated the dissolution of the Catholic Church in England.
Elizabeth Cadfan


From: IVANOR at delphi.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Period Rosaries
Date: 20 Apr 1995 22:57:56 GMT

Quoting teachmrt from a message in rec.org.sca
   > >>>In later portraits of the late 1500's we see ladies wearing their
   > >>>rosary beads attached to their belts.
   > If those ladies are nuns, then it is a sign of their order.

It was not customary for nuns to have their portraits painted.  The lady is
referring to secular costume, and in that period, it was common to wear
rosaries that way.

   > I believe it is the Baltic nuns who wear their roasaries in this way,
   >but I am not sure.

The custom of nuns (What are Baltic nuns?) wearing their rosaries this way
is a survival from the period when all women did, as the nuns' habits, until
recent years, were survivals of 13th-15th century costume (depending on when
the order was founded).

Carolyn Boselli    Host of Custom Forum 35    SCAdians on Delphi
Ive Annor M'Quhairr of Sighty Crag, AoA, Yale, Seneschale/Dragon Forge


From: nzsm at spis.co.nz (SPIS & NZ Science Monthly)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rosary Beads from roses
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 96 04:17:05 GMT
Organization: South Pacific Information Services Ltd

nzsm at spis.co.nz writes:
>sneezy at darkwing.uoregon.edu writes:
>>
>>1.  Is there anyone out there who actually utilized this article and tried
>>to make said beads?  If so, would you please let me know your experience?

I don't know about the article (being scum and not seeing TI :-) but I have 
made rosary beads from both dried and fresh petals, minimal amounts of 
rosewater and oil. (Very low simmer for a number of hours with a bolt in the 
pot to make it black -- they look better that way IMO). Very easy to do and 
a good way of using up the rose petals that collect everywhere. Rolling them 
afterwards is the messy part -- that's where the oil comes in. I've never 
bothered sanding them to shine, but you can do a goodly range of sizes.

They're lovely (just don't store them with anything with too strong a scent 
-- the odour of some neighbouring rubber leeches did nothing for one set...).

>>2.  What, exactly, were rosary beads used for?

I've used them as decorations, for necklaces and to scent my drawers (the 
wooden variety). I did make a fake rosary, but opted to put 9 beads in each 
"decat" so that it differed from a real one (I may be a skeptic but I like 
to hedge my bets :-).

It's a pleasant way to spend a summer afternoon, so go ahead and do it even 
if you don't have the references to hand.

Salute
katherine kerr (who should really be using only white roses, but then 
there's something poetic about turning red roses black, hah!)
  ==========================================================================
  New Zealand Science Monthly -- NZ's only general-interest science magazine
    nzsm at spis.co.nz * Fax: +64-3-384-5138 * Tel: +64-3-384-5137
              P.O. Box 19-760, Christchurch, New Zealand


From: sneezy at darkwing.uoregon.edu (Clare ni Mhaille)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Rosary beads from Roses:  Update
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 02:32:58 -0800
Organization: Institute of Cognitive and Decision Sciences

Greetings to all!

I am the person who started this thread...oh, way back about a month
ago...and I have very much enjoyed and appreciated the feedback and
responses.

My experiment was entirely successful, I am happy to note.  I believe I
have found a nice niche for my merchant persona.  What could be lovelier
than living full time among the scent and sight of roses.

I would just like to give a little bit of feedback to the group.  I ended
up finding four (with Katherine's it makes 5) recipes for these
beads...every single one was different in some way.  I would highly
suggest collecting a few different recipes then working off of the
combined ideas. (I can add mine to this collection and that now makes 6
recipes, all different.)  I was more comfortable being able to choose the
parts off the recipes that made intuitive or practical sense to me.  I
experimented with mash consistency, cooking vessels and times, spices in
with the cooking/spices rolled in after cooking, etc.  For instance, while
Katherine's recipe (and another I have) suggest cooking down the mash
until rather dry, I found that, personally, working with a mash that was
quite wet (though not sticking to my fingers) required some patience in
the rolling, but allowed me to stick a pin into them right.  I found the
drier mash to be more difficult to work with because is tended to crumble
when rolling and break when sticking a pin into it.  Also, it's *just my
opinion* :)  but, as a ceramics artist I was able to figure out that (like
clay) the more moisture you have in, and the finer the grind of, your
mash, the more the shrink of the bead during drying, but the tighter the
bond of the material and thus, a stronger, harder, smoother bead.

I highly recommend writing down your procedures and observations
(no...this isn't just because I am a professional research
scientist...it's because I have a lot of Virgo :P).  I wrote everything
down from the start so that I could make adjustments next time around
which really helped!

In the end....it's all a matter of personal preference, eh? :)  I echo
Katherine's suggestion:  Just do it and enjoy!

Clare ni Mhaille (mka Lynn McDougal)

[As an aside:  I did try to repeat this using lavender flowers, but it
just didn't work.  The bio-mass of the lavender is simply a different kind
of composition (very woody = high cellulose content.)  The beads were too
light and just never formed a hard bead. :(  The scent was lovely, though,
and I might try to mix some of the lavender into the rose next time to see
what happens.)
-- 
WWW http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~sneezy
email: sneezy at darkwing.uoregon.edu


From: nzsm at spis.co.nz (SPIS & NZ Science Monthly)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rosary Beads from roses
Date: Fri, 10 May 96 02:31:51 GMT
Organization: South Pacific Information Services Ltd

dickeney at access1.digex.net writes:
>I would be
>mighty interested in learning more about this article that apparently
>gives instructions...

I don't know about the article, but it's really easy:

Gather rose petals (dried will do OK, fresh is fine).

Chop up very finely (a food processor helps).

Put in a pot with just enough rose water (or ordinary water) to make 
slightly soggy (shouldn't be too much free liquid, just enough to stop it 
catching on the bottom). The best pots are small cast iron ones as they help 
the roses go nicely black (adding a spare old bolt or two helps as well). 
You can also add ground spices if you want.

Put on heat that will just simmer slightly and no more. Stir occasionally.

Leave for a while (it doesn't seem to have made much difference to my 
batches how long -- a hour or two is fine. So long as most of the fluid has 
been reduced leaving you with a close-to-solid pulpy mass).

Test by rolling some of the pulp between your fingers. If you can squeeze 
moisture out, it's still too wet so simmer some more.  

Rub rose oil (plain will do, but rose oil helps the scent) on your 
hands/fingers and start rolling small balls. I've varied mine from the size 
of dressmakers' pin heads (the ones with plastic knobs on) up to marble 
size. Much larger and they tend to split during drying.

Leave for a couple of hours to start drying (overnight can be OK) and then 
run a needle through to hole them. If the holes are small, it can be really 
hard to find again, so I tend to string them at this point in whatever 
fashion I want.

You can sand them after they're fully dry -- some people even varnish thjem 
which kinda removes the point I think (you lose the scent). I prefer the 
rough finish.

I've made rosary tokens this way too, just by flattening out the pulp into 
coin-sized disks.

So have fun and be sweetly scented!

katherine kerr of the far-off southern reaches of Caid where the roses are 
sweeter...
  ==========================================================================
  New Zealand Science Monthly -- NZ's only general-interest science magazine
    nzsm at spis.co.nz * Fax: +64-3-384-5138 * Tel: +64-3-384-5137
              P.O. Box 19-760, Christchurch, New Zealand


From: Chris Hartley <Chartley at bendnet.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rosary Beads from roses
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 09:03:05 -0800
Organization: Electronic Communities

*most of a wonderful reciept for rose beads snipped to save space*
Katherine Kerr suggested:

>>Leave for a couple of hours to start drying (overnight can be OK) 
>>and then run a needle through to hole them. 

To which Khada'an adds:
Baroness Sancia of Glym Mere once explained making similar beads to 
me. She suggested rolling the beads around several blades of grass, 
allowing the grass to form the hole.  Her Excellency explained that 
when by the time the beads had dried, the grass will have shrank 
enough to easily remove it. This would also work as a marker for where 
the holes are, so you could easily find the holes to string the beads 
after they'd completely dried. (I've never tried it, but it floated to 
the top as I read your directions... :)   )

Lady Khada'an Nachin


From: "Deb H." <debh at microware.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Rosary Beads from roses
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 12:22:05 -0500
Organization: Microware Systems Corporation, Des Moines, Iowa

The magazine Herbal Companion (May/June) issue has a complete article on
the making of rose rosary beads. There are also photos of how they will
look when completed. 

You can pick up this issue at your B. Daltons, Waltons, Borders and
Barnes & Noble bookstores.

Kateryn
debh at microware.com


From: alysk at ix.netcom.com(Elise Fleming )
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: medieval rosary
Date: 6 Jul 1996 17:11:52 GMT

In <4rlnp3$onl at newsbf02.news.aol.com> enyanest at aol.com (EnyaNest)
writes: 
> I have been trying to research the rosary of medieval times and have
>had no luck.

I found quite a bit of information in a Roman Catholic encyclopedia
that happened to be in the library of my parents' Protestant retirement
community.  I don't have the name or the information any more but it
was a good source, telling when the rosary came into being, how many
beads were used, what prayers (or psalms!) were commonly said, etc. 
See if a local public library, or church, might have a set.

Alys Katharine  


From: sclark at chass.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: medieval rosary
Date: 7 Jul 1996 13:22:20 -0400
Organization: University of Toronto -- EPAS

Greetings!

For a good, concise introduction, try the entry under "Rosary" in the New
Catholic Encyclopedia.  It's several pages long, and traces the history
of the devotion from its origins in the "poor man's breviary" of the
12th century, its connection with paternoster beads, some of the various
forms the devotion took in the Middle Ages, and its crystallization into
the modern form in about the 16th-17th century.  It also gives a bibliography
if you're interested in continuing your research.

For info on making period rosaries, Mistress Alys Gardiner had an excellent
article on the topic in a _Tournaments Illuminated_ of a couple years ago.

Cheers!
Nicolaa de Bracton
sclark at chass.utoronto.ca


From: sjaqua at ix.netcom.com(Scott Jaqua)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: medieval rosary
Date: 8 Jul 1996 06:09:18 GMT

    One of the period beads to use in a rosary would be rose beads.
There is an excellent article on making them in the June/July issue of
the Herb Companion magazine. It looks like a bit of work, but I have
seen them, and the work is worth it!
    Allesaundra de Crosthwaite


From: WISH at uriacc.uri.edu (Peter Rose)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: medieval rosary
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 96 13:50:32 EDT
Organization: University of Rhode Island

>I have a question on this subject as well. Why do they call it a rosary?
 
Someone posted something a while back about making rosary beads out of
pulverized rose-blossoms.  (Hence the name "rosary")
 I tried that over the 4th, by putting about
50 wild-rose-blossoms and 1/2 cup of water in a blender, spreading
the resulting sludge in a brownie-pan, and frying gently until I got a
thick paste.   It worked, and the 'beads' still reek of roses, but they're
very fragile, to the point where, if you want holes in them for threading,
you're best off forming the beads around bits of straw in the first
place, because there's no way to punch holes in the dried beads
w/out destroying the bead.
 
I also tried mixing table sugar or flour in with the paste as a
hardener/adhesive.  The sugar worked fairly well, the flour didn't
work worth a damn.   I think I remember someone mentioning adding
Gum arabic or Gum-something else as a binder, and I may try that,
if I ever go home again before the roses go out of season.
 
                                  --Ralph


From: sclark at chass.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: medieval rosary
Date: 9 Jul 1996 12:14:16 -0400
Organization: University of Toronto -- EPAS

Greetings!

The word rosary is derived from rosarium, Latin for garden or chaplet
of roses.  The modern rosary is divided into three sections, or "chaplets"-
-the Joyful Mysteries, the Sorrowful Mysteries, and the Glorious
Mysteries of Mary--five of each.  In saying the rosary, one builds a garden
or chaplet of roses to crown the Blessed Virgin.  This explains also why
the beads were often made of pressed rose petals, or carved to resemble
roses.

Cheers!
Nicolaa de Bracton
sclark at chass.utoronto.ca


From: sclark at chass.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: rosary/worry
Date: 11 Jul 1996 11:33:10 -0400
Organization: University of Toronto -- EPAS

Greetings!

Muslims do have "prayer beads" as well, although I do not know how
they work, exactly.  There is some thought that the rise in appearance of
paternoster beads in the 11th and 12th century may owe something to Crusaders
and monastic and pilgrim visitors to the Holy Land noticing the
practice and adapting it to Christian practice.  Paternoster beads are one
of the ancestors of the rosary;  a devotion known as the "poor man's breviary"
in which 150 Pater Nosters were said in place of the 150 psalms
(because the "poor man"--in the sense of "uneducated"--did not know
his psalter as a monk or priest would) and the beads were used to keep count.

Cheers!
Nicolaa de Bracton
sclark at chass.utoronto.ca


From: Sirena Glade <sirenag at peak.org>
To: Mark S. Harris
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:45:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: rose beads and rosaries

I would have to find the reference, but as I recall it was in a National 
Geographic magazine some time ago.  They had a good photo of a rosary 
found in a ship wreck.  My mom has made a couple rosaries on order using 
her rose beads, stones and sterling.  They are beautiful!  I'll ask her 
where she found the photo...  If you're interested in rose beads, I could 
send you a price list (it's not on the 'net yet!).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sirena M. Glade			In the frenzy of the time all resistance
26003 Alsea-Deadwood Hwy.	could be denounced as treason or
Alsea, OR  97324		counterrevolution and punished with the
				guillotine.
(541)487-8453			  *Notes on the French Revolution*
sirenag at peak.org		_Europe Since Napoleon_ -David Thomson
------------------------------------------------------------------------


From: Sirena Glade <sirenag at new.PEAK.ORG>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: rose beads
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 19:10:15 -0700
Organization: Public Electronic Access to Knowlege,Inc

Because of the large amount of inquiries I've reeived regarding the 
confection of rose beads, I've decided to post the recipe here.  This is 
the method my mother uses and has been successful for many years.

INGREDIENTS:
        rose petals, any colour, in large quantities

SUPPLIES:
        meat grinder, preferably metal
        cast iron skillet(s) depending on how many batches are to be made
        cheesecloth
        toothpicks
        pins/nails
        two weeks
        
METHOD:
        Begin by making sure the rose petals don't include any leaves or 
any green pieces at all (these will ruin your beads!)  Grind the petals 
in the meat grinder into the cast iron skillet.  Once you have ground the 
petals, cover with cheesecloth making sure the cloth doesn't rest on the 
concotion by using tooth picks and leave until the next day.  You will 
have what I call a rose 'mush' in the skillet.
        Repeat this process daily for two weeks, and you will end up with 
a black 'mush' that smells of roses.  FAIR WARNING: This 'mush' will turn 
your fingers black!  Roll your beads and place each bead on a pin or nail 
depending on how large you wish the hole to be.  Allow the beads to dry 
thoroughly then remove carefully from the pins/nails.
        Voila!  Rose petal beads!  If you have any questions, please 
don't hesitate to ask.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sirena M. Glade                 In the frenzy of the time all resistance
26003 Alsea-Deadwood Hwy.       could be denounced as treason or
Alsea, OR  97324                counterrevolution and punished with the
                                guillotine.
(541)487-8453                     *Notes on the French Revolution*
sirenag at peak.org                _Europe Since Napoleon_ -David Thomson
------------------------------------------------------------------------


From: ladyallyn at aol.com (Lady Allyn)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: medieval rosary
Date: 12 Jul 1996 02:41:54 -0400

Gentle Friend,

The "gum something" in question is gum tragacanth (i *think* a botanical
derivative so possibly period), which you should be able to find at a) a
good herbalist, b) a health food store, c) a forward thinking pharmacy.  I
refer again to "The complete Book of Herbs", whose recipe differs slightly
from one I've used in the past, but appears to be quite practical.  ( It
also includes powdered orris root to retain the scent and gum benzoin
(period to old Egypt) (from pharmacy or chemist supply) to keep them from
growing mold. (an important safety tip)

I have always threaded rose and myrrh beads while the paste is still quite
damp, twisting them about the strings once or twice a day until dry. Waxed
"nine cord" (nine strand cottton string) works very well and leaves a hole
quite large enough for threading onto various kinds of projects.

  The current and just past issue of Herb Quarterly have also had well
researched info on medieval gardens. The current issue has Ancient Rome
and Medieval England articles.

Peace,
Lady Allyn


From: David Corliss <corlisd at aa.wl.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: medieval rosary
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 08:43:18 -0400
Organization: Retro Team, Parke-Davis Ann Arbor

Greetings!

The most scholarly Nicolaa de Bracton wrote:
> In saying the rosary, one builds a garden
> or chaplet of roses to crown the Blessed Virgin.  This explains also why
> the beads were often made of pressed rose petals, or carved to resemble
> roses.

Wolfram Hugo von Gumbach replied:
> So what is the significance of the ROSE? I've seen it on early and modern
> Christian crosses. Does it have some hidden meaning?

The Rose itself is taken as a symbol of the Blessed Virgin, hence the appropriateness of using roses to remind oneself of her.

Beorthwine of Grafham Wood


From: dpeters at panix.com (D. Peters)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: medieval rosary
Date: 21 Jul 1996 08:49:57 -0400
Organization: Panix

tvolkert at aol.com (TVolkert) wrote:
>So what is the significance of the ROSE? I've seen it on early and modern
>Christian crosses. Does it have some hidden meaning?

If you'd like a period reference, there's a fifteenth-century carol whose 
first verse is:

"Ther is no rose of swych virtu
As is the rose that bar Jhesu"

You can find the music in _Musica Britannica_, vol. 4; the nicest 
recording of it that I know is on "The Service of Venus and Mars" by 
Gothic Voices (Hyperion CDA66238).

D.Peters


From: dickeney at access4.digex.net (Dick Eney)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rose Beads
Date: 25 Jul 1996 01:26:09 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA

Gus Forsman <gaforsma at mailbox.syr.edu> wrote:
>Looking for the recipe for boiling rose petals down to a paste to make
>beads out of.  This was published in one of the society publications
>at some time in the past.  It might have been under Rosary beads.
>They are suposed to keep the rose scent for years.  Thank you ina
>advance for any help.

Detailed instructions were published in a magazine called _The Herb
Companion_, June/July 1996 (Volume 8, No. 5).  The article was not listed
on the cover, which did list Apothecary Roses, Parsley, A Lemon Garden,
and Midsummer's Eve.  The Herb Companion is published bimonthly by
Interweave Press, Inc., 201 East Fourth Street, Loveland, CO 80537-5655.
$4.95 US for one issue. 

The bead mash has to be cooked (covered) for 2 or 3 _days_, but you can
cook them for a few hours, cool them and reheat them to cook more, over a
long period of time.  It can be baked (covered) at 250 F for 1 to 2 days
if you can't occupy the top of the stove that long.  It has to be covered
to prevent a crust from forming.

Beads that aren't properly formed can be cooked down again.

Puree the rose petals with just enough water to let the blender work at
highest speed.  Drain the mash through cheesecloth or a jelly bag.  When
the mash is cooked in iron, a chemical reaction turns the mash black, and
it will stain anything it touches -- wear old clothes and rubber gloves.
And you may want to use an old iron pot and keep it just for making
rosemash - the mash will remove the patina from an iron pot.  But you can
also use a stainless steel pot.
After the mash is cooked it has to be cooled.  Layer a tray thickly with
newspaper and cover the newspaper with paper towels.  The mash will stick
to newsprint but not to paper towels.  Cover the mash with another layer
of paper towels and let it drain.  This may take a few hours or may take
overnight, and may have to have new paper towels several times.  

The people who wrote the recipe add a few drops of rose essence to the
mash -- 6 or 7 drops to 1 cup of mash -- and knead it in.  I suppose it's
because they are using petals from the national rose garden, which has a
lot of tea roses with no particular scent.  BTW it doesn't matter what
color the roses are, they all turn black anyway. 

Mash can be stored refrigerated in tightfitting plastic containers for up
to a week, or frozen for a few months, thawed and refrozen as necessary.

For each bead, they use a slightly rounded 1/2 teaspoon of mash; the bead
will shrink to about one third its original size as it dries.  Wearing
gloves! knead each piece in your hand to make sure it's smooth and has no
thorns, etc, in it.  Roll it to make it round.  Crack can be rubbed with
water or rubbing alcohol (cracks will get larger as the bead dries).
Slide the bead onto a wire to dry; they use brass wires, about ten beads
per 12 inch wire, making sure the beads don't touch each other.  They
suspend the beads by hanging the wires across an empty box, so the beads
don't get a flat side.  If the beads dry too fast, they will crack, so
keep them away from heat and drafts.  If they dry too slowly they may get 
moldy.  During the first week, turn the beads and slide them a little
along the wire every day.  Let them stay on the wires for another week or
two until they dry completely.  Store them in tightly covered glass jars
to keep the perfume in until you're ready to string them.  

The article said they string the beads on dental floss, but the photograph
of an old rosary of rose beads shows each bead on its own metal thing (you
know, a short piece of wire with each end formed into a loop, which hooks
into the loop of the next bead, forming a chain that doesn't let the beads
rub against each other).

The people who wrote the article are the Herb Society
of America -- Potomac Unit, PO Box 1055, Springfield, VA 22151.

They sell the necklaces as a fundraiser.

I am not a member.  I just bought a copy of the magazine.

-- Tamar the Gypsy


From: luiseach at aol.com (Luiseach)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rose Petal Beads
Date: 21 Apr 1997 01:30:08 GMT

Directions for making rose petal beads as well as other scented beads were
in a recent issue of Bead & Button magazine--check issues 17 and 18.  You
can probably find Bead & Button in bead stores; or try a bookstore that
has a good selection of magazines.  The article had complete directions
and photos of the finished beads.

Luighseach nic Lochlainn


From: Tovah at hubert.rain.com (Tovah)
Date: 25 Apr 97 22:05:01 GMT
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Rose Lady

Greetings Gentle Folks!

  This is a small example of  the rose recipes I have.  I chose to first 
write the most asked for recipes, which are the Rose Beads and the Rose 
Water.
  The Rose Water is needed for some other recipes I will be writing about. 
There are several Rose Water recipes, but I will only metion the strictly 
only rose recipe.  The others call for other herbs and flowers, if you are 
interested in those also, please let me know.
   I decided to make the recipes public, instead of writing them to only the 
Folks who asked for them because there was so many who wanted the recipes. 
Though there were several of  you who asked me to send the recipes directly 
to you because of certain circumstances, I will do that also.
   Please enjoy this wonderful and versatile flower!

                          Tovah of Misty Isles 
                          Lady of North Keep 
                           a.k.a Rose-Lady


Rose Beads

   Gather the roses on a dry day (best done in the dew of the morn) and chop 
the petals finely.  Put them in a saucepan and barely cover with water.  Heat 
for about an hour but do not let the mixture boil.  Repeat this process for 
the three days and if necessary add more water.  The deep black beads made 
from rose petals are made this rich coulour by warming in a rust pan.  It is 
important never to let the mixture boil but each day to wam it to a moderate 
heat.  Make the beads by working the pulp with the fingers into balls.  When 
thoroughly well worked and fairly dry press on to a bodkin (* See note) to 
make the holes in the centres of the beads.  Until they are perfectly dry the 
beads have to be moved frequently on the bodkin or they will be difficult to 
remove without breaking them.  Held for a few moments in a warm hand these 
beads give out a pleasing fragrance.

* Note:  Most of  the recipes will ask you to use Damask roses or red roses, 
         but I have found that any modern, well scented rose will do as well.
         Instead of  using a bodkin, you can use a clothes hanger.


Rose Water
<snip - see rosewater-msg file>


Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 09:43:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Carol at Small Churl Books <scbooks at neca.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Rose beads

> But I don't have any real
>documentation of either origins or techniques. Does anyone out there have
>such to share?

Don't have copies on hand at the moment, so can't tell you for sure if the
information you want is in these sources -

Rose Recipes from Olden Times, Eleanour Rohde, Dover
The Old English Herbals, same.

Lady Carllein


Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 14:25:41 -0700
From: Eric & Lissa McCollum <ericmc at primenet.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Rose beads

DianaFiona at aol.com wrote:
>      I know from a variety of tertiary sources that rose beads are period,
> and probably came from the Middle East. But I don't have any real
> documentation of either origins or techniques. Does anyone out there have
> such to share? 

Perhaps a clue as to where to look--The June/July 1996 issue of
The Herb Companion magazine had an article on how to make rose
beads. It mentions the history briefly:

"Beads made of rose petals that have been cooked, mashed,
and molded by hand trace their origins to India, where the
devout used them as a counting device while reciting their
prayers. Eastern Christian monks adopted the use of rose
beads in the third century, and the beads were given official
approval in 1520 by Pope Leo X."

Perhaps there is a way to search out that official approval?

I also recall that "The History of Beads" had a section on
rosaries, talking briefly about the connection between the rose
and the Virgin in history, but I don't remember that it
metioned rose beads in particular.

I would be interested in hearing about what you find out!

Gwendolen Wold


Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 09:49:21 -0700
From: "Kevin D. Walmsley" <walmsley at cruzio.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Rose beads

Margritte's wonderful web page on making rose beads will be more easily
found at:
http://www.mindspring.com/~maclain/southdowns/phoenix/Articles/rosebeads.html

                         Enjoying Your Page,
					Kevin of Yorkshire


Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 13:15:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rooscc at aol.com
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: rose beads

Oh wow, I don't use any binder at all. Just a little salt and 
fresh, ground (and reground and reground and . . .) rose 
petals, white tips removed. And of course cooked in a 
iron pot to make them black. I keep them in covered 
storage when I'm not wearing them and they and their 
scent last--my best ones may be five years old now.

Alysoun


Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 11:07:01 -0500
From: Margritte <margritt at mindspring.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Rose beads

>In a message dated 97-06-04 05:05:21 EDT, you write:
><<
> I strongly suggest _not_ using flour as a binder. It will often spoil over
> time, ruining the whole batch of beads. I use powdered gum arabic as a
> binder, along with powdered orris root to act as a fixative, both of which
> add some substance to the rose petal powder.>>>
>
>    ???? I've not had any such problems with using flour, and I've made a
>fair number of beads in the last few years. Maybe I've just been lucky so
>far! ;-) I am interested in trying the gum arabic version, but I'll have to
>mail order it, as none off our health foodstores carry it. And since the only
>places I can think of that sell the stuff do so by the pound, that can get
>pretty pricey for something I'd use so little of at a time. Do you have any
>suggestions for cheap sources, etc.?

I had one batch of rose beads that molded on me not too long after I made
them. My biggest disappointment, though, was with a batch of yellow
wildflowers that I was going to make into beads. They dried to a vibrant
yellow, and I was looking forward to some really unusual beads because of
the color. Unfortunately, I was out of gum arabic, and used flour instead.
It ruined the color, turning it to a nasty vomit green. Those two
experiences concinced me to never use flour again. YMMV.

For small quantities of gum arabic, and many other neat things, I suggest
Ravensnest Herbals. If you are in the Atlanta area, they can be seen at the
Georgia Renn Fair most years. They also do mail order. I don't have the
snailmail address handy, but they can be reached at:

	greg cochran <ravens at mindspring.com>

They also carry powdered orris root, and even powdered rose petals. I'm not
affiliated with them in any way. Just a satisfied customer.

I don't remember now what the problem was with using liquid gum arabic
instead of the powdered. I know I tried it first, because I couldn't find
the other. Seems like maybe it made the paste too watery, but I'm really
not sure anymore. I may have to try it again, not that I have a better idea
of what I'm doing.

Good luck.
-Margritte


From: "Margot Carter-Blair" <beadsong at hotmail.com>
To: markh at risc.sps.mot.com
Subject: rosaries :rialto archives
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 05:56:03 PDT

Dear Mark

Have enjoyed your guestbook very much on various subjects.
We have a new site with the history of the rosary called 'Journaling the 
Bead' which has been compiled and cross referenced from many sources and 
resources including general history, bead books and church documents.  

Esp interesting are the filigree rosaries with pictures!

Come visit us.  Not as much fun as guessing and supposing but good 
foundation is great converstion....I love the section on rose bead recipes 
and also comments about where to go to see old rosaries such as the 
Cloisters.....thanks for being there!

http://www.rosaryworkshop.com

Margot Blair for the Guild


From: Eric & Lissa McCollum <ericmc at primenet.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Renaissance chompie toys
Date: 21 May 1998 13:31:01 -0700

Gretchen M Beck wrote:
> Coral--you can find lots of pictures of babies wearing coral necklaces.
> I've seen (but can't locate names for) several sources that describe
> coral as a traditional teething item.
> 
> toodles, margarert

If you do come across those sources, would you please post
them? I haven't heard that suggestion before, and would be
interested in adding it to my collection of bead info.

'The History of Beads' suggests that coral in the Middle ages
was thought to have protective powers, specifically to 
strengthen the heart and prevent ailments of the blood. In
many Medieval paintings the Christ Child is shown with a
coral rosary (those strings of beads). Early rosaries were
a kind of amulet string as well as being a counting tool.

The coral of Southern Italy and the Tunisian coast was
a very popular material for making rosary beads out of. When
the rosaries were introduced, one general term for beads was
in fact 'krallen' "a designation derived from one frequently 
used material for beads, i.e. coral." (1) (After rosaries were
introduced, the word gradually changed to 'bede', from the word 
'biddan' which means 'to pray'.) Along with other materials, 
coral was also a source of controversy: "As early as 1261 
the Dominicans were forbidding lay brothers to 'give themselves 
airs by using excessively grand beads.' In the middle of the 
fourteenth century, an Augstinian canon of Onasbruck outlawed 
the wearing of coral rosaries around the neck." (2)

I do have a picture from the 1897 of a young girl
with a coral necklace, suggesting it was a common gift
to children at that time to conjure health. However
my personal suspicion is that the coral necklaces shown 
in Medieval paintings relate more to the prevelence of 
rosaries as a devotional item at the time, and less to 
do with teething--though I also know that babies will 
put anything in their mouth that they have in their
hands. :) 

If the original poster goes this route, do be careful 
of the choking hazard.

Gwendolen Wold

References:

(1) "Glass Beads from Europe" by Sibylle Jargstorf. 
Schiffer Publishing Ltd. Atglen, Pa. 1995.

(2) "The History of Beads, from 30,000 BC to the Present"
 by Lois Sherr Dubin. Harry N. Abrams, Inc. New York.
1987.


Subject: Re: monks habits, etc
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 99 11:57:22 MST
From: wenner <wenner at pdq.net>
To: "Mark.S Harris (rsve60)" <rsve60 at email.sps.mot.com>

<snip of lots of info on monks and orders - see monks-msg>

Different topic:  on "rosaries" somebody wanted to know
about "Tudor rosaries" --well, remember The Tudors started with Henry VII
who was a good if unremarkable Catholic, and included Queen (Bloody) Mary
who was a fanatical one (Pope St Pius V told Her to lighten up and merely
be tolerant of individual religious freedom, because the English people
had suffered too much chopping and changing already; but she wouldn't
listen). The Tudors of course are identified with Henry VIII and Elizabeth
I who were protestant; but it so happens that when Mary was on the throne,
she gave her teen-aged half-sister Elizabeth the gift of a coral rosary.
(So I recall from reading a biography of young Elizabeth some years ago.)
So there you have a Tudor rosary, at least of the upper classes.  By the
way the Saxon word "bede" means prayer--hence the name of Venerable St
Bede, England's first historian.  It is possbly true that the crusaders
saw the muslim "rosary" of 99 beads with a tassel (for the 99 praise-name
of Allah) and got the idea to make a chaplet of 150 prayers (for the 150
psalms,which most laypeople couldn't read or memorise, like the monks) of
beads on a string.  the 150 was divided into three groups of 50 for
brevity's sake, which is the structure of the modern rosary.

--Raven Wenner


Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:47:06 -0500
From: "Gryphon's Moon" <margritt at mindspring.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: RE: Rose Petal Beads

>I haven't made rose petal beads.  I just collected the references.  Perhaps
>Nora, who's  on this list and who's email address is linked from the Rose
>Petal Bead section of the Beading page, can help you.
>
>http://www.jwhiteconsulting.com/scaarts/beading.html
>
>M'Lady Inui Nijo
>inui at jwhiteconsulting.com
>http://www.jwhiteconsulting.com/scaarts/

I've made several sets of rose petal beads. I have an article on the 
process at:
http://www.mtsu.edu/~kgregg/dmir/14/rose_beads.html

They truly are not very beautiful when finish. One gentle said they 
resembled dog kibbles... I always thought they looked more like 
rabbit droppings  :-)

One way to avoid that look is to make them in an cast iron pot. The 
petals react with the iron and turn jet black. You can also mix them 
with other beads for contrast for a different look.

To get the petals ground fine, I usually use a food processor after 
drying the petals either in the convection oven (varying between 
little and no heat) or the door of a just-used clothes dryer. In 
other words, anywhere you can get some gentle heat. For that matter, 
a nice sunny day would probably work just as well. Important note: if 
you use a convection oven, make sure to place a screen over the 
petals to keep them from blowing all over. Trust me on this...

If you want to make rose petal beads, but don't grow your own roses, 
I have been  very happy with the products I have purchased from 
Raven's Nest Herbals (they are on the web somewhere). They carry 
powdered rose petals which make a wonderful paste for the beads. It 
is very finely ground.

-Margritte


Date: 20 Mar 00 11:33:50 EST
From: Nora Siri Bock <heathentart at usa.net>
To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Re: Rose Petal Beads

Oy vey.  Nothing like finding out someone's reposted something of yours
*without* obtaining permission.  Not nice.  Those recipes are NOT mine, btw,
but culled from various books I consulted during my research into perfumery.

As for the rose beads themselves, yes, they look like dog kibble.  No they
will never look like anything else.  They'll turn dark brown regardless what
you do, unless you don't use rose petals and use a pigment or dye instead.

For me, that's the joy and beauty of them.  I want it to look as they did when
they were first made as "rosarium."  To aid in rolling them, I use rose oil on
my hands to make them slick, and to add scent to the beads.  Also, I use only
the most dried of petals, ones that I've ground to a fine powder.  I sift out
the larger bits with an extremely fine sieve.

And ask me HOW happy I am that I've found a direct source for Damascene rose
otto in Turkey, AND that he had a sale this month.  Gowan, ask.

Nora
Siri bint Saadia


Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 14:11:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Jenne Heise <jenne at tulgey.browser.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Rose Petal Beads

> A number of us in our local Barony tried them several years ago, and had a few
> problems--no matter how dry we _thought_ the petals were, they still didn't want
> to crumble nicely.  Also, our beads ended up looking like nice-smelling dog
> kibble, good for potpourris or sachets, but not for nice rosaries or jewelry.
> Any suggestions?

All the recipes I have seen in books direct one to heat one's rosepetals
in an iron pot to produce a uniform black coloration.

Also, most of the recipes I've seen call for fermenting fresh, or
partially dried, rosepetals, but these online ones call for completely
dried ones. I'm not sure if this would be a technique difference only, or
whether the results would be completely different. 

Has anyone gotten some really strong documentation for rose beads? I
consider them a special case of pomanders, but I have no period
documentation for them.

Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise	      jenne at tulgey.browser.net


Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:31:44 MST
From: "Ceridwen of Wizard's Keep" <auntdwen at peakonline.com>
Subject: Re: ANST - Rosaries
To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>

There was a wonderful article in a past TI  (Issue 99, Summer XXVI) by
Mistress Alys Gardner (Elizabeth Z. Bennett) regarding medieval rosaries
(which were long strands of beads vs. the circle in modern use).  I refer
you to her excellent resource.

Baroness Ceridwen Tir Gwastraff
House Wizard's Keep


Subject: Re: ANST - Rosaries
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 00:13:07 MST
From: Charlene Charette <charlene at flash.net>
To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org

Scot and Domino Eddy wrote:
> Here is a question that I hope someone would help us with. Rosaries. How do 
> they work? As a Protestant trying to play the part of a good Catholic I assume
> that we should have some idea of the proper use of a rosary.

Go to Yahoo and type in "rosary".  Several sites come up including
http://rosary.virtualave.net/ which has a how-to guide (at least for the
modern rosary).  Most libraries have a copy of the Catholic Encyclopedia
which should have historical information as well.  Additionally, a local
Catholic church would probably be happy to answer any questions you
have.

--Perronnelle


Subject: Re: ANST - Rosaries
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 06:04:33 MST
From: Gina Barrett <gina at et-tu.com>
To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org

The Rosary as it is said today (in the same manner throughout the Catholic
Church) was only beginning to be finalised in the late years of the
fifteenth century, even then, it took some time to become commonplace. A
full break-down of the traditions according to the catholic Church can be
found at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13184b.htm

        In England, certainly during the 15th century, the Rosary was known
as a Paternoster. It was used as an aid to remembering which prayers to say
- the Ava Maria (Hail Mary) and the Paternoster (Our Father). Each bead
represents one full version of the prayer - a large bead for the
Paternoster, small bead for the Ave.

        These strings of beads could be either a string (often finished
either end with a tassel) or a loop (finished with only one tassel).
Paternosters consist of sections of beads, with 1 large bead between 6-12
smaller beads. The beads are held in the hand, as the fingers move to a
bead, the appropriate payer is said.

        There was no 'short' version as such, although, because there wasn't
a consistent requirement for the saying of the prayers as there is today
(fifteen decades of hail Marys with an Our father between each ten), people
did actually say less as there was such a variety in the number of beads. Of
course, the very pious would just start over again!

        Everyone who could afford to would carry a paternoster. The medieval
people on the whole had a very different outlook to religion, and the
carrying of prayer beads was commonplace. Paternosters were made of whatever
could be afforded - all small beads would be of the same material and all
large beads often a contrasting material (but all large beads matching each
other). Many works of art depict paternosters made of materials such as
amber, garnet, silver, pearls, etc.

        Paternosters were certainly carried to church, and it is thought
that they were carried at all times, certainly by the pious. (As well as
taking into consideration the costs of some of them, it can be supposed that
they wouldn't be left at home often) A man would often loop a Paternoster
over his belt, and as art shows more women using the loop of beads, it could
be assumed that this was to enable them to carry it say, around their wrist.

G. Barrett

Soper Lane
15th Century Silkwomen


Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 11:22:17 CEST
From: "Christina van Tets" <cjvt at hotmail.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: rose petal beads

Yes, my rose petal beads looked like dog biscuits too, and bits came off at 
an alarming rate, so I dipped each one in wax to give them a smooth outer 
coating before threading them on anything.  They still smell like roses 
(though with a hint of beeswax now).  No, I haven't any documentation for 
this - it just seemed like a good idea at the time, and a better way of 
honouring the seed pearls I was stringing with them.

Cairistiona


Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 12:41:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Christopher Douglas Buckley <cbuckley at gladstone.uoregon.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: rosewood

The rosewood that most woodworking projects (including rosaries I have
seen) actually comes from the Pterocarpus indicum.  The wood from an
actual rosebush is grainy, brittle, and difficult to work with.  Rosewood
gets its name from the deep reddish-brown color of the wood.  It's often
available at hardwood stores (yes, they do exist) or even at some craft
stores.  If you'd like some help with rosary design, I've been making my
own rosaries now for about five years.  Best of luck.

Benedicet Deus te,

Father Nathan O'Ceile,
Ordo Praedicatorum
Adiantum, An Tir



From: Lord Phelippe Descors [descors at sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 11:16 PM
To: Ansteorra; Elfsea; Steppes
Subject: [Ansteorra] Fw: Paternosters mailing list

I just saw this on the Rialto and thought that others might benefit from
this new list.

	Phelippe Descors

"Chris Laning" <claning at igc.org> wrote
> Apologies to anyone who sees this more than once, but I thought
> people on several lists might be interested in yet another Yahoo!
> group (as if we all need _more_ mailing lists to subscribe to!).
>
> [Paternosters] is an e-mail list for people interested in historical
> rosaries, paternosters, and other prayer beads. If you re-create,
> research, collect, or just admire and are interested in the variety
> of rosaries (etc.) that have been used in history, you are very
> welcome to join us!
>
> There is also a FAQ file in the Paternosters files area (which anyone
> can read) giving a brief synopsis of the history of the rosary and
> its predecessor, the paternoster. It's at:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Paternosters/files/Rosaries-FAQ
>
> Please feel free to forward this invitation to other people (or mailing
> lists) who might be interested.
>
> Pax et bonum!
> _________________________________________________________
> O    (Lady) Christian de Holacombe
> |     Chris Laning  <claning at igc.org>
> +    Shire of Windy Meads  -  Davis, California
> _________________________________________________________


From: "Kirsten Houseknecht" <kirsten at fabricdragon.com>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 17:29:40 -0400
Organization: Fabric Dragon
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Rosaries, was :gum tragacanth

the "Rosary" is a more recent (by SCA standards <grin> ) term. very late in
period. like 1500s
BUT
the practice of saying "Ave Maria" or a related phrase, was concurrent with
saying the "Our Father" or Pater Nostre..... from... IIRC... about 1000?
certainly by 1100
the pater nostre as a repeated prayer... said with beads or knots or
scratches on wood to keep count. is in fact MUCH older, and i believe there
was some documentation that traces that back in to the 700?800?

the origens of this is the fact that those who couldnt attend mass every day
could say the psalms as a sort of liturgy of common.
BUT
the psalms are long, and most people couldnt read (and wouldnt take a
valuable book on trips) and did i mention they are long?? so the practice
arose of saying the  Pater Nostre...... or the hail mary.... 150 times, once
for each of the psalms evolved...... then the practice of breaking up the
150 psalm substitutes into groups, divided by a different bead, or
something.. so as not to lose your place most likely.

MY opinion is that the division for accounting predated the "insert
different prayer here" and the different prayer was added because the bead
was there.. but i digress.

the Rosary. as both a saying of Ave Maria, interspersed with the Patre
Nostre.. combined with some kind of meditations. actually pre dated St.
Dominic.

the best documentation on this is available from the book "Stories of the
Rose" which i reviewed on Amazon dot com........ and there is a recent book
out that covers similar materiel (the history of the Rosery and other prayer
beads) called.. praying with beads???

anyway, since i make Rosaries i am always interested.  the variations in
STYLE of Christian prayer beads was fascinating.  in archeology they tend to
make an assumption that beads found at the waist are prayer beads.... but
beads around the neck are "jewelry" but based on an exsisting sermon in the
1300s we KNOW it was considered appropriate to wear Rosaries AS a
necklace...... so i tend to be more liberal and assume that any bead
string..... which is evenly divided by "different" beads.. found in a
Christian grave MAY be prayer beads... and any bead circle of 150 probably
is.......
Kirsten

<the end>
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