nuns-msg - 3/19/08
Nuns in period. References.
NOTE: See also the files: monks-msg, religion-msg, heretics-msg, popes-msg, relics-msg, rosaries-msg, p-bibles-msg, icons-msg.
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From: Gil <caichear at uswest.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Orders of nuns in pre-reformation Germany
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 20:00:06 -0600
Christopher Handisides wrote:
> This is one of those wonderfully wierd subjects where I haven't a clue
> where to start (especially since I won't have access to my trusty
> university library for a couple of months still). My wife [for her
> persona] wants to have a background that includes some time spent in a
> convent in/around southern Germany, circa 1510-1520. Has anyone out there
> happened to have done any research on this subject? I'll take any leads
> that I can find at the moment. She's especially interested in any orders
> that might have been relatively "friendly" to members with a scholastic
> bent, or have been possessed of an order-wide scholasticism.
>
> --Chris (aka Lazarus der Jaeger)
Here are three to get you started:
Hirsauer-PrŠgung in Neresheim, founded in 1106.
St. Martin in Beuron, founded in 777.
and Benediktbeuern in Benediktbeuern, Bavaria, founded in 739.
All three are Benedictine Convents. You can go to the OSB main webpage to
find more Convents of Beneditines in Germany. http://www.osb.org/osb/
Caichear mac Giolla Muire
Shire of Gryphon's Lair, Artemisia
From: dorothy stuhr <dorathea at home.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: nuns
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 04:22:38 GMT
>Where would I start in trying to find info on Irish nuns. I have heard
>about the monks, but were there nuns also? What did they wear? what did
>they do ( spin, weave etc.)what time period? Thanks, Thea
Well, I've awnsered some of my own questions, this is an interesting
site;
http://www.millersv.edu/~english/homepage/duncan/medfem/religion.html
Thea
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:03:20 EST
From: <Seton1355 at aol.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Nun's clothing, 5th-8th c. C.E.
SNSpies at aol.com writes:
<< would like to ask if anyone has pictures/information or knows where I
might look for pictures/informatio about pre-Carolingian >>
Try the book:
SISTERS IN ARMS
by Jo Ann Kay McNamara
Harvard University Press
1996
There are no pictures but there may well be discriptive information about
clothing.
Phillipa
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:16:58 -0500
From: capriest at cs.vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman)
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Cc: h-costume at indra.com, h-needlework at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: Nun's clothing, 5th-8th c. C.E.
Nancy/Ingvild asked:
>I would like to ask if anyone has pictures/information or knows where I might
>look for pictures/informatio about pre-Carolingian (i.e. Merovingian, 5th-8th
>century C.E.) Frankish clothing worn by nuns.
See the sources (particularly the two books) by LaPorte cited in my textile
bibliography:
http://www.cs.vassar.edu/~capriest/textilebiblio.html
LaPorte's work with the Merovingian textile relics at Chelles includes some
related information about the clothing habits of the (often highly ranked)
nuns of the period. You'll also find an extant "grande robe," tunics, and
tablet-woven trim woven by some of the abbesses there.
Carolyn Priest-Dorman =DE=F3ra Sharptooth
capriest at cs. vassar. edu Frostahlid, Austmork
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:59:45 -0600 (CST)
From: Lorine S Horvath <lhorvath at plains.nodak.edu>
To: H-Needlework at Ansteorra.ORG
Cc: h-costume at indra.com, sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: HNW - Nun's clothing, 5th-8th c. C.E.
According to "Dress in Anglo-Saxon England" by Gale R. Owen-Crocker
(Manchester University Press, 1986) pg. 87.
"There seems to have been no uniformity about dress for early Anglo-Saxon
nuns and many sisters seem to have been far less ascetic than St.
Etheldreda, failing to appreciate that unworldly dress should have been a
feature of convent life" ... "Bede records that the nuns of Coldingham in
Northumbria wove and wore elaborate garments, adorning themselves like
brides." It looks like in this time Anglo-Saxon nuns were dressing at the
height of fashion.
Fiona nicAoidh
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 08:44:52 -0000
From: "Melanie Wilson" <MelanieWilson at globalnomad.co.uk>
To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Re: HNW - Nun's clothing, 5th-8th c. C.E.
>Oh goodie, Lorine, at least that would make some interesting garb!
Unfortunately, I'm not sure that we can extrapolate from Anglo-Saxon England
to the Merovingians
Although you can't, the excessive dress of nuns is mentioned in mant texts
around this time, continental as well! Sorry no idea where I saw it now
though :(
Mel
Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 18:58:37 -0500 (EST)
From: Grace Morris <gmorris at cs14.pds.charlotte.nc.us>
To: ysca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Cc: H-Needlework at Ansteorra.ORG, h-costume at indra.com,
sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: HNW - Nun's clothing, 5th-8th c. C.E.
Several years ago I was invited to join a company of sisters as they
attended a Shrine full of relics at an event. I didn't want just the
average "penguin" outfit (no offense intended), but wanted something more
unusual, and even outrageous, as that is my style. I
"interlibrary-loaned" I don't know HOW many books, including one in
French with hand-tinted illustrations and real bookworm holes. At the
time I was working on a class entitled "Music in the Cloister", so I
searched in all of those, also, including Sisters in Arms.
After all this, I came away disappointed. The first great period in the
founding of cloisters for women seems to have been the 8th-12th century.
(For lots of information, and really juicy stories, about Carolingian
houses, see "Women Under Monasticism: Chapters in Saint-Lore and Convent
Life between A.D. 500 and A.D. 1500" by Lena Eckenstein. Cambridge
University Press.) My collected impression was that even in the early
part of this period, there was little uniformity of dress, the emphasis
upon simplicity and modesty; visual evidence shows mostly black, white,
brown, beige, etc.. Veils, of course, but in the early years I never saw
any of the stiff support under the veil, merely soft draping around the
face, neck, and head.
Accounts that tell of the abuses, usually
of the abbesses, relate how they used gold tiring pins, silks with
trains, carried little pet dogs, etc.. In other words, they were
dressing in the fashion of the times in which they lived. In short, if I
was to be a truly outrageous nun, you wouldn't know me from anyone else
in the SCA...
There is a happy ending. Sometime after the event, I happened upon a
painting of the wall of a 12th/13th(?) century Swedish church, showing a
nun in what at first seemed to be your run-of-the-mill penguin suit.
Closer inspection revealed a large (4-5 inch) white stripe down the
middle of her black veil. Christened the "skunk nun", and armed with my
personal reliquary for/of St. Dogma, I am now prepared to take my place
among my sisters.
A few other sources about nuns:
Carr, Annemarie Weyl. "Women and Monasticism in Byzantium: Introducton
from an Art Historian." Byzantinische Forchungen 9 (1985) 1-15
Johnson, Penelpe D.. Equal in Monastic Profession: Religious Women in
Medieval France. (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1991)
Monson, C.A., ed. The Crannied Wall: Women, Religion, and the Arts in
Early Modern Europe. (Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press, 1992)
Power, Eileen. Medieval English Nunneries, c. 1275-1535.
(1922; reprint ed., NY: Biblio & Tannen, 1964)
Ranft, Patricia. Women and the Religious Life in Premodern Europe. (NY:
St. Marin's Press, 1996)
Wemple, Suzanne Fonay. Women in Frankish Society: Marriage and the
Cloister 500-900. (Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 1981)
(Sisters in Arms has already been cited....)
In Service,
Jessamyn di Piemonte, Atlantia
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:27:45 ESTFrom: <SNSpies at aol.com>To: h-costume at indra.com, sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.eduSubject: Merovingian nuns I've done a bit more research and have discovered that yes, indeed,Merovingian nuns did wear some kind of specific clothing other than theirregular secular garb.In Gregory of Tours (6th century), he tells of Ingitrude whose husband cameto remove her from a sacred place. "She was in the habit of a nun, anddeclared that she was vowed to penitence; she therefore refused to go withhim."In Caesarius of Arles' "Rule for Nuns" (6th century), part of Rule 5 statesthat "even those who enter the religious life as virgins, if they do notfulfill this condition [of giving up all possessions], either shall not bereceived or shall not be permitted to put on the clothing of religion ..."Rule 44 of the same "Rule for Nuns" says, "Let them have all their clothingonly in a simple and respectable color, never black, never bright white, butonly natural or milky-white; let it be made in the monastery by the industryof the prioress and the care of the wool-mistress ...Nancy
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:56:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Grace Morris <gmorris at cs14.pds.charlotte.nc.us>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Merovingian nuns
On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 SNSpies at aol.com wrote:
> I've done a bit more research and have discovered that yes, indeed,
> Merovingian nuns did wear some kind of specific clothing other than their
> regular secular garb.
> Nancy
This is great to know! After what I found, it seemed to me that, mostly,
the dress probably varied from abbey to abbey. I always got the
impression that, living together, a general concensus would have been
made as to dress. When you read about all the French and especially
German princess who founded abbeys, it is pretty clear that they made a
lot of their own rules, especially in the beginning. Eckenstein has
fabulous stories of their independence, including armed nuns barricading
themselves in a chapel...
So, it's nice to know that , even this early, there WERE rules,
event if they weren't always followed.
(But then, what else is new?)
Of course, if we REALLY want to complicate things, different abbeys
followed different Rules (Benedictine, Briggitine, although many of
these are based on the same original set)...but this is more information
than I care to delve into..
Jessamyn
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:08:37 -0500 (EST)
From: Grace Morris <gmorris at cs14.pds.charlotte.nc.us>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Merovingian nuns
Just re-read my own post...
All of this pertains to early in period. Dress most definitly was
"regularized" later into our period...
Jessmayn
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:14:46 -0500
From: Hank Harwell <cleireac at juno.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Merovingian nuns
On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:56:47 -0500 (EST) Grace Morris
<gmorris at cs14.pds.charlotte.nc.us> writes:
>Of course, if we REALLY want to complicate things, different abbeys
>followed different Rules (Benedictine, Briggitine, although many of
>these are based on the same original set)...but this is more
>information than I care to delve into..
Well, it's really not that complicated...
Caesarius of Arles (previously mentioned) is one of the founders of the
early monastic rules (which included nuns)
Benedict of Nursia established a rule (the Benedictine Rule) for monks
which was adapted for use by nuns. His rule was based on the writings of
the Deset Fathers, and especially John Cassian. Nearly all monastic
rules are derived from the writings of these sources.
Now, early Irish monastic rules are another animal somewhat....
Brother Cleireac of Inisliath
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:34:44 -0600 (CST)
From: "Pixel, Queen of Cats" <pixel at hundred-acre-wood.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: the Holy rule
On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 Seton1355 at aol.com wrote:
> Does anyone have information or a website that would list the different rules
> of the different orders?
> Phillipa
The page www.newadvent.org is a Catholic site with the Catholic
Encyclopedia on it. It has some useful information about the various
orders and rules, at least the little I've looked at.
Margaret FitzWilliam of Kent
College of Tor Aerie
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 17:38:35 -0500
From: "Kate/Constance" <fairfax at tir.com>
To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: RE: the Holy rule
Rule of St. Benedict
This rule, written around 530, became dominant in the 8th century. Most
monasteries followed this rule, although there were often some
modifications.
The Cluniac and Carthusian monastic movements both used the Benedictine
rule--so did the monasteries they were trying to reform.
Rule of St. Augustine
http://www.domcentral.org/trad/rule.htm
This rule of life was used by a number of groups in the Middle Ages.
St. Dominic adopted it as the rule for the Dominicans, and in the 13th
century (don't have the exact date off the top of my head) a number of
independent hermits and small monasteries were consolidated under the
same rule to form the Order of St. Augustine.
The Benedictine and Augustinian rules were also used for women's
monasteries, although they were often modified. The Benedictine site
has some of these modified versions of the Benedictine rule from the
Middle Ages.
Regula Bullata of St. Francis (1223)
http://ofm.org/1/info/Rule.html
This is the rule that was approved by the Pope for the Franciscan order.
There are two earlier rules; the rule of 1210 has been lost and the rule
of 1221 was not approved by the Pope; it was replaced with this version,
which is still in force.
St. Clare of Assisi wanted to develop a women's order like the Franciscans,
who went into the world instead of staying in cloistered monasteries.
However, she wasn't able to get approval for an order of religious women
who were "in the world," and so the "Poor Clares" became a cloistered
order. I wasn't able to find a Web page with the Rule of St. Clare on it.
Alan Fairfax
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:24:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Grace Morris <gmorris at cs14.pds.charlotte.nc.us>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: was Merovingian/now Swedish nuns
For anyone following this who likes the "strange and unusual" I found my
picture of the "skunk nuns". The picture is entitled "The Translation of
St. Birgitta from Rome to Vadstena" and is a fresco or ceiling painting
(not clear) for the Village Church of Tensta, Uppland. The date is 1437
(later than I remembered) so it is possible that the dress was
regularized before then. I have a xerox, but I believe that it was black
and white in the book. The veil is black (?) with either a white lining or
a white veil underneath; the stripe is more like 3-4 inches. Also worn
is a black cloak lined in white, and a darker than white (beige? gray?)
gown underneath. Oh, and a white veil around the neck and face.
If you like things Scandinavian, but POST VIKING (a period usually
neglected in the SCA!) this is a good source:
Kusch, Eugen. "Ancient Art in Scandinavia". Nurnberg: Hans Carl, 1964
also look at:
Royal Swedish Academy of Letters, History, and Antiquities. " Medieval
Wooden Sculpture in Sweden". Stockholm: Almquits and Wiskell, 1964
Jessamyn
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:20:21 EST
From: <SNSpies at aol.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: the Holy rule
Thanks for the message, Fairfax.
<< Unfortunately I didn't find any reference to surviving copies of women's
monastic rules from this period. >>
The only one that would apply that I have found are the Rules of Caesarius of
Arles, and I know from the literature that nuns did adopt this set of rules,
so perhaps I shall stick with this one. At least they mention colors!
Nancy
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 23:04:30 EST
From: <SNSpies at aol.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: the Holy rule
Fairfax writes:
<< That makes sense...on theother hand, it seems pretty clear that you
shouldn't be limited to a color. The prevailing ethic for early monasticism
seems to be that you shouldn make your clothing simple and unobtrusive...
it's only later that the idea of special habits tends to take hold. >>
Ah, but the Rules for Nuns of Caesarius of Arles (6th century C.E.)
specifically states that the "habits" should be specific colors -- "only
natural or milky-white", so I'm not really sure why you would say that
someone trying to reproduce this attire shouldn't be limited to a color.
Perhaps the rule was not strictly enforced, and of course there were other
rules in effect. What I'm saying is that, at the moment, the only evidence I
have for any specific coloring of 6th century Merovingian nuns' habits is
this natural or milky-white stricture. I would be delighted to learn of
other color choices!
And as for just making your clothing simple and unobtrusive, yes, that is
correct. However, the 6th century Benedictine Rules (for monks) also state
exactly what a monk wore -- tunic, cowl, scapular, stockings, and shoes, with
trousers if they were travelling. The scapular, I believe, was not "normal"
garb during this time. Again, I would be happy to learn otherwise.
Nancy
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 09:31:37 -0500
From: "Kate/Constance" <fairfax at tir.com>
To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: RE: the Holy rule
}And as for just making your clothing simple and unobtrusive, yes, that is
}correct. However, the 6th century Benedictine Rules (for monks) also state
}exactly what a monk wore -- tunic, cowl, scapular, stockings, and shoes,
}with trousers if they were travelling. The scapular, I believe, was not
}"normal" garb during this time. Again, I would be happy to learn
}otherwise.
The 1910 Catholic Encyclopedia, which is not the most authoritative source
but has the advantage of being on the Web, B-) says:
In the West, in the case of St. Benedict, the scapular was at first nothing
else than a working garment or apron such as was then worn by agricultural
labourers. Thus, in the Rule of St. Benedict, it was expressly termed
"scapulare propter opera." From this developed the special monastic
garment, to which a hood could be fastened at the back.
Fairfax
From: "Oscagne" <oscagne at gmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Garb for a Beguine
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 19:53:09 -0600
"oedipa" <lunar_fire at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hello all! I'm woking on my first SCA persona and thinking about going
> with a Beguine woman - but for however much information I've been able
> to find (quite a bit!) I haven't seen any description of their habits!
>
> I realize that, given the generally autonomous nature of the Beguines,
> it's very unlikely they had anything like a "standardized" habit - but
> I've read several different contradictory things about their clothing
> and would like to set the record straight!
>
> Pictures would be lovely, though I don't expect any - I'd really just
> like a good description from a verifiable source. Thanks!
Quick and dirty searches, so no promises that this is exactly what you
need...
http://mw.mcmaster.ca/scriptorium/images/3005w-Beguine.html
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~egelser/beguine.gif
http://home.tiscali.nl/~t451501/ercadam/content/begijnh.htm
http://www.cns.bu.edu/~satra/kaatvds/dress.htm
http://www.hotels-holland.com/amsterdam-info/adam-5sightseeinghighlights.htm
--
Oscagne
From: "Lysebet van der Wilgen" <missvelveetah at yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Garb for a Beguine
Date: 16 Feb 2006 10:08:00 -0800
www.netidea.com/~mdefeo/swan.htm
Here is Walburga's documentation page w/photos-- she won the Golden
Swan for her Beguine persona.
From: jk <klessig at cox.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Garb for a Beguine
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 17:43:51 -0800
"oedipa" <lunar_fire at hotmail.com> wrote:
>Hello all! I'm woking on my first SCA persona and thinking about going
>with a Beguine woman - but for however much information I've been able
>to find (quite a bit!) I haven't seen any description of their habits!
>
>I realize that, given the generally autonomous nature of the Beguines,
>it's very unlikely they had anything like a "standardized" habit - but
>I've read several different contradictory things about their clothing
>and would like to set the record straight!
>
>Pictures would be lovely, though I don't expect any - I'd really just
>like a good description from a verifiable source. Thanks!
Well I seem to recall at least one flemish painting, with Beguines as
a subject, from one of my trips to Belgium. And some where I also
recall a photo graph of one of the last Beguine nuns, but that would
of course be well oop.
jk
From: "oedipa" <lunar_fire at hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Garb for a Beguine
Date: 15 Feb 2006 20:08:43 -0800
Here's a quick history -
http://www.arthistoryclub.com/art_history/Beguine
<the end>
