monks-msg - 1/26/08

Medieval monks and orders. Monk's clothing.

NOTE: See also the files: p-bibles-msg, popes-msg, relics-msg, saints-msg,  religion-msg, rosaries-msg, crusades-msg, burials-msg.

************************************************************************
NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************

From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Monk will-be needs answers
Date: 24 Jan 1995 16:58:01 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

THOMAS LEE FARNSWORTH <farnth at wwc.edu> wrote:   
>     A: From browsing this net, I've picked up that a Franciscan
>monk's clothing was mostly shades of brown, correct?

It was grey at first.  I believe it was in the sixteenth century
that members of a reform movement started wearing brown to
distinguish themselves from the unreformed who were still wearing
grey.

>     B: Someone also mentioned that Franciscan's were the
>plainest in their living and dress.  Could someone fill me in on
>this also.

The Franciscans (until they got soft and in need of reform)
practiced extreme poverty.  For an example of Franciscan poverty
in action, see if you can get hold of a book called _A Right to
Be Merry_ by Mother Mary Frances of the Poor Clares (the
Franciscan enclosed nuns).  

>I realize that during the High middle ages and early
>Ren. Monastaries controlled much land, and so dressed quite
>wealthily.  How were Franciscans different?  

See above regarding poverty, and note that the Franciscan friars
are not monks, in that they do not live monastically, enclosed on
a piece of monastic land to which they have vowed stability.
(As opposed to the Poor Clares, to say nothing of the
Benedictines, Carthusians, Carmelites, etc. etc.)

>     C: How appropriate would it be to learn Staff sparring for
>self defense?  (To fend off those nasty bandits the Shire Reeve
>never caught :) 

It would depend on how devout a Franciscan you were.  A really
devout Franciscan, instead of fighting off the nasty bandits,
would let them take everything he had, preaching love and
forgiveness all the while.  St. Francis took the Gospels
seriously and literally.

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin		Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West			UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable		djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu


From: mizzi at aol.com (Mizzi)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Monk will-be needs answers (Kind of long)
Date: 24 Jan 1995 10:21:14 -0500

Hope you're enjoying the persona building business.  I'm no expert on the
later history of the Franciscans but their inital founding was as a
largely itinerant group of young men who wandered around being fed and
sheltered by good souls who had compassion for them.  Their aim was to
live extremely simply with all their meager belongings held in common. 
Their main activity (when not begging for food) was praying for the world.
Their founder was extremely fond of nature and very sensitive to the life
of birds, wolves etc. Stories abound about St. Francis talking to the
birds and persuading a wolf to leave a certain town alone. If you are a
nature child, the persona of one of these early Franciscans may be good. 
By the way St. Francis and most of his initial followers came from wealthy
trading families.  They were appalled by the hipocracy & cynicisim they
saw their parents practice.  They rejected the empty values of wealth &
ease for a more spritual life close to nature.
 *About land, while orders of monks owned land, an individual monk owned
nothing.  He often only had the use of his habit not the ownership of it. 
St Francis was trained in military matters and even served an army term as
a proper young gentleman before he gave up on the world.  He and his
followers, however, avoided violence as far as I know.  Remember that this
started as an Italian movement.  Hope this is helpful.


From: Marjorie Nelson <marge at frognet.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: 8th Century Monks, etc.
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 22:19:15 -1000

Fr. Morgoth:  
Hope this isn't too elementary but you might start with two Penguin 
classics:
The Age of Bede  which contains Bede's Life of Cuthbert (Cuthbert was my 
kind of saint!  - played with otters on the beach), Lives of Abbots of 
Wearmouth and Jarrow; Eddius's Life of Wilfrid; and (fanciful) The Voyage 
of St. Brendan.

Bede: Ecclesiastical History of the English People

Marjory de Dundee


From: jeffs at bu.edu (Jeff Suzuki)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: 8th Century Monks, etc.
Date: 31 Oct 1996 01:30:39 GMT
Organization: Boston University

Hi!  I'm not sure what the start of this thread was, but another book
I'd like to add to the list is _Light from the West_, by William
H. Marnell, which deals with the works of the Irish monks.  

Jeffs


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Monk's robe
Date: 9 Feb 1997 02:42:43 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley

Jo Beverley <wp823 at freenet.victoria.bc.ca> wrote:
>I've still not seen my monk's robe instruction here. ...

No more than you have.  I thought somebody else would've posted it by
now, but since they haven't here it is.

"From wp823 at vifa1.freenet.victoria.bc.ca Thu Jan 30 13:19:22 1997
"
"Monk's Robe
"
"Measure person across shoulders and down the arms about 4 inches. (This
"would be for average adult male. Use common sense.)
 "Cut four pieces of cloth this wide, and as long as nape to heel.
 "Piece 1 is the back.
 "Pieces 2 and 3 are left and right fronts.
 "Piece 4 is divided in three. (Pieces will be the original width x 1/3 the
"nape to heel.)
 "This gives two sleeves and a hood.
"
"The sewing together should be fairly obvious. The fronts are sewn to the
"back, matching them at the shoulder, and with the fronts leaving extra
"hanging loose in the middle. The sleeves are added to this body piece,
"centered on the shoulder seam. The whole [here Jo's mailer appears to
have hiccupped, but the logical conclusion is, "is seamed up the sides."]
"
"The hood piece is folded in half and seamed on one side. This is the back of
"the hood and is matched to the center back. Then the bottom edge of the hood
"is sewn to the loose flaps of the front. This makes a very deep hood.
"
"You can hem or blanket stitch the raw edges. I don't know what is authentic.
"
"Use cord for belt to hold it together.
"
"I got this years ago from an interesting book which had patterns taken from
"ethnic and historical garments. There's a medieval Danish cape which is
"interesting, but quite complicated to convey without graphics. It would be
"worth hunting through your library....  [here Jo's mailer appears to
have hiccupped again and the rest of the sentence is lost.]
"
"Jo Beverley, historical romance author.

This pattern reminds me of a description of a monk's robe quoted
in an Albert Campion whodunit, viz.,
Allingham, Margery, 1904-1966.  The tiger in the smoke, a novel. 
Garden City, N.Y., Doubleday, 1952.

In which the vicar's wife has made him a dressing-gown according
to the ancient pattern ...take four pieces as long as the brother is
tall from the shoulder, and as wide as whatever....  and the
sight of him scares the living heck out of somebody who broke in
one evening trying to burgle the church.

dcm


From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Clergy
Date: 18 Mar 1997 17:38:49 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley

In article <332DA978.466D at sisna.com>, Pamela  <dherrmann at sisna.com> wrote:
>Hi there!  I was wondering if anyone can send me info and/or point me to 
>a book or web page that deals with and shows pictures of period priest, 
>clergy or any other religious-type wear.  Thanks in advance for any info!

There are an awful lot of them.   You might try (a) searching in
the library catalog for things like "religious habits", and (b)
narrowing yourself down to a century or two.  "Period" is
"anything before 1600."  Even if you establish a _terminus post
quem_ of 476, that's still more than 1100 years.  I can tell you
one thing about early period habits if you like: for St.
Benedict's monks there weren't any.  Chapter 55 of his Rule
says the monks should wear "whatever is available in the area, or
whatever is cheapest,"  He mentions a tunic and cowl for indoors,
a shirt to work in, and shoes for the feet, and says two sets are
enough, one for cold weather and one for warm, and to provide an
opportunity for laundry occasionally.

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                          Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West                                Albany, California
PRO DEO ET REGE                                     djheydt at uclink


From: panther at ici.net
To: markh at risc.sps.mot.com
Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 10:32:29 -0400
Subject: Franciscanism

The Franciscan Archive:  A WWW resource on St. Francis of Asssi and
Franciscanism is online at

http://www.ici.net/cust_pages/panther/francis/


Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 22:15:18
From: Edwin Hewitt <brogoose at pe.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: St Francis of Assissi

>Could anyone help me with finding an appropriate saints day for Saint 
>Francis of Assissi, so that we canb hold a feast in his honour? We need 
>pre-Vatican II, preferably for norther germany 15th - 16th century.

>miesje

Interesting question, since the calendar has been in such flux over time.
Currently, October 4th is reserved as his feast day on the revised
Roman-Rite Calendar.

The Franciscan Web Page is:  
http://listserv.american.edu/catholic/franciscan/
and it has a great background on Francis and the Franciscans.
Also try the New Advent Catholic On-line Encyclopedia at:
http://www.knight.org/advent/cathen/06221a.htm  for Francis, and
http://www.knight.org/advent/cathen/06217a.htm for info on the Orders
he founded.  The following is from the last URL:

Fransican Order

A term commonly used to designate the members of the various foundations of
religious, whether men or women, professing to observe the Rule of St.
Francis of Assisi in some one of its several forms. The aim of the present
article is to indicate briefly the origin and relationship of these
different foundations. It is customary to say that St. Francis founded
three orders, as we read in the
Office for 4 October: 

     Tres ordines hic ordinat: primumque Fratrum nominat Minorum:
pauperumque        fit Dominarum medius: sed Poenitentium tertius sexum
capit utrumque.           (Brev. Rom. Serap., in Solem. S.P. Fran., ant. 3,
ad Laudes) 

These three orders -- the Friars Minor, the Poor Ladies or Clares, and the
Brothers and Sisters of Penance -- are generally referred to as the First,
Second, and Third Orders of St. Francis. 

Edwin


Subject: Fwd: Re: 12th C. Augustinian Monk's Habit
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 10:41:11 PDT
From: "Dug Swank" <eburhard at hotmail.com>
To: stefan at texas.net, piusma at UMDNJ.edu, eburhard at hotmail.com

This is what I found out about Augustinian Monk's Habits.
Thanks for your input!
Bonifatius Eburhard der Oger
************************************************************
>Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 11:32:02 -0700
>From: John Pejza <jpejza at ix.netcom.com>
>To: Dug Swank <eburhard at hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: 12th C. Augustinian Monk's Habit
>
>Dug Swank wrote:
>> Greetings to thee, Father Jack Pejza:
>> from Bonifatius Eburhard der Oger [mundanely known as Dug Swank]
>>
>> Grace and Peace from God our Father, Amen.
>>
>> I found your page on Geocities, and hope that you could help direct me
>> in my search for the peripheries of a 12th c. Augustinian Monk's Habit.
>> I am a member of a medieval re-creation group, the Society for Creative
>> Anachronism, [http://www.sca.org], and authenticity is very important
>> for our members.
>>
>> In mundane life, I am a Lutheran, but in society, I am a crusader who
>> has taken the cowl.  Given my Lutheran heritage, I would like to
>> represent an Augustinian Monk.
>>
>> Any assistance on this would be greatly appreceiated.
>> Deo gratius!
>> Bonifatius/Dug
>
>The Augustinian habit consists of a black tunic, ankle-length, with long
>sleeves.  All mendicant religious orders have pretty much the same basic
>tunic, although in a different color (brown for Franciscan, for instance).
>This is fastened  at the waist by a long (7') leather cincture (basically a
>long leather strap about an inch wide, with a 2" ring at one end.  The
>cincture goes around the waist, wraps around the ring, then goes through it
>to  cinch it.  The loose end of the cincture then falls toward the ground;
>depending on the length, it can be from knee-length to ankle-length. The
>final piece of the habit is a capuche or cape which is hard to describe.
>In front, generally it extends from the neck to the waist; in back it is
>pointed and is butt-length.  The hood is not hard, as with the Capuchin
>habit, but is soft. I'll see if I can find a picture to send to you.

>    The Augustinians, by the way, were formed in 1244 A.D. by a decree from
>the pope who joined several groups of monks/hermits into the Order.
>
>Father Jack Pejza


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:30:19 -0700
From: Heather Senkler <wl835 at victoria.tc.ca>
Subject: Re: 12th Century Augustinian monks habit

On 17 May 1998, Mark Robinson wrote:
> If someone does write such an article on how medieval habits have changed
> over time, I would love to have a copy!  Right now I'd like to know what
> Benedictine monks and nuns wear nowadays as opposed to what they wore in
> the Middle Ages.
> 
> Nyssa of Iona <cugan at execpc.com>

Well, here in Seagirt, we have a Franciscan Monastery. One of the monks
took a vow to wear the traditional robes. Brown robe, white rope belt,
hood. (It looks REALLY hot in summer) You can sometimes see him waiting
for a bus downtown or walking along the street. Apparently he has been
asked from time to time where the SCA event was that he was heading for.
He laughs it off and politely informs the asker that he is a real monk and
although he knows about the SCA he has no idea if there is an event on or
not.

The local nuns wear "everyday" dress as far as I have seen.

                                Lady Ekatarina Borisovna


Subject: Re: Franciscan habits
Date: Thu, 04 Jun 98 07:57:52 MST
From: griffevents at cableinet.co.uk
To: "Mark.S Harris (rsve60)" <rsve60 at email.sps.mot.com>

Mark.S Harris wrote:
> Thank you for this input. Just recently there was an individual on
> the Rialto (the rec.org.sca newsgroup) asking about the robes of a
> particular order (I think it started with an "A" but the particular
> one has slipped my mind). No one had details for him and all I could
> do was point him toward my one small file which is a bit barren of
> details.

Probably Augustinian (Black Cannons) or Austin Cannons, both the same
thing Don't know about dress I'm afraid.

> I will add this message to the file. If you have more info or some
> good referances, particularly on how the clothing of the different
> habits varied, I would appreciate it. I'm still trying to find out myself.

It's not until you really start looking for detailed information that you
realise how little there is and what there is is very unclear and ambiguous.
Even today, Cistercian habits seem to differ slightly from country to
country although the basic form is the same.

> What do you do different when you are performing as a Fransiscan vs.
> as a Cistercian? Do you do more than change outfits?

Yes, as well as locations. It is ok for a Friar to be pretty nearly
anyplace and doing most types of work but obviously the monastic orders
stay put. Unlike the SCA we (we meaning my colleagues and I, I work most
with The White Company 1450-1485) do not adopt personalities or
characters and usually only speak in third person. As I am a
professional actor/performer I can do first person but only if I'm paid
enough.......

The basic idea is to educate the public/schoolchildren/whoever in as
direct and easily understandable way as possible so usually it is made
clear that although I may be dressed as Monk/Friar/Roman slave/Civil War
seargeant/Elizabethan fencing instructor etc, etc I am in fact a 20th
century person and am there to answer questions and give out as much
information as is needed. There are pros and cons to both sides
obviously but for the amount of work I do it is far easier to stick to
3rd person and only do 1st if it is scripted and one way.

When monk or friar I try and highlight the differences between the
lifestyles, the way or working, the rules, the layout of the buildings
and their function etc. When a monk I am usually a lay brother, my chant
is awful so I prefer to talk about shepp sheering or illuminating rather
than singing the litany. Unlike 'knights' or 'lords', holy people have a
better chance of turning up most places so I find it useful to be a
friar especially when organising large events. I have 'access all areas'
when barefoot and ranting about the sins of man.

Please feel free to ask any other questions. Regarding books, there are
obviously very many but the most useful is a simple little pocket book
called 'Discovering Abbeys and Priories' by Geoffrey N. Wright, Shire
Books ISBN 0 85263 454 4. It is pretty much a beginners torist guide to
English sites but does have some useful stuff and is small enough to
carry in a satchel or snapsack without being noticed. Best to ignore the
crap victorian pictures of Monks habits though. It only costs £3.00
here, I could get you one and send one if you wanted.

Mark Griffin


Subject: Re: Re: ANST - Sumptuary Laws Elsewhere
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 98 16:44:23 MST
From: "Bob Dewart" <gilli at seacove.net>
To: <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

Let me relate my experience with "belts".  Many years ago I had a friar
personna.  Part of a friar's garb is a white rope belt with three knots at
the end.  The belt is called a cincture.  Some confused this 1/2 inch wide
white rope belt being worn by a friar for that of a knight's belt.

Presently HL Gilli former Friar Gillian of Gallway(1975-1983)


Subject: Re: ANST - info on monks?
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 98 18:42:35 MST
From: "Bob Dewart" <gilli at seacove.net>
To: <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

>Thank you for this info on a friar's outfit. Which house used this white
>belt? All of them? What was the outfit color itself?
>
>  Lord Stefan li Rous

We were the Abby of St.Hubert the Huntsman.  To my knowledge, they were all
white.  The knots represented the vows of obediance (see why I gave it up),
chasity (see why I gave it up) and poverty(and I was that way any way).

The friars robe was made out of a material called "Monk's cloth".  It was
brown.  It looked like burlap in its weave, but was much softer to the
touch.  Please don't ask where to get it--I don't know.  The outfit was made
by HL Noman's mother and I traded him a crossbow for it.  As to the quality
of the garb, I was mistaken for a friar by a real Friar at an event at the
Munsonburg(SP?) Castle in Germany.

I don't off hand remember the references.

Gilli


From: cailean at celide.ndirect.co.uk (Andrew C. Ferguson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: "monk" personas
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 21:36:59 GMT
Organization: Anamchara Fellowship

Any one with a Celtic Monk persona, check out
www.celide.ndirect.co.uk.


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: djheydt at kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
Subject: Re: Portraying a monk? Resources?
Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd.
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 00:24:36 GMT

First off, get to your best available library and find a copy of
the _Rule of St. Benedict._  You may choose to play a m,onk of
some other order, but Benedict's Rule is the oldest in Western
monasticism and a large part of its foundation.  Note that if you
play a monk, one who is living the monastic life, you will have
to have (at least within your own imagination) some errand you
are on to explain why you're out in the world instead of staying
in your monastery.  If you're a friar, working out in the world,
that won't be necessary.

I dare say this thread will continue for a few days, which will
give me time to upload and post a formula for constructing a
traditional monk's robe.  Or if your best available library
contains a copy of a whodunit called _The Tiger in the Smoke_ by
Margery Allingham, you'll find the formula in Chapter One or
maybe Two.

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                         Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West                               Albany, California
PRO DEO ET REGE                               djheydt at kithrup.com


From: david.razler at worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Portraying a monk? Resources?
Date: 24 Nov 1998 02:07:06 GMT

djheydt at kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
| First off, get to your best available library and find a copy of
| the _Rule of St. Benedict._  You may choose to play a m,onk of
| some other order, but Benedict's Rule is the oldest in Western
| monasticism and a large part of its foundation.  Note that if you
| play a monk, one who is living the monastic life, you will have
| to have (at least within your own imagination) some errand you
| are on to explain why you're out in the world instead of staying
| in your monastery.  If you're a friar, working out in the world,
| that won't be necessary.

My first secondary resource would be Eco, of course, who also provides a great
deal of information on the rules of several other orders.

My second primary reference <after the Rules> would be to get a library to
provide you with the Plan of St. Gall<sp?>, the two-volume reference on a
period monestary and substantial information on the lives lived by its
occupants.

                                david/Aleksandr

David M. Razler
david.razler at worldnet.att.net


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: djheydt at kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
Subject: Re: Portraying a monk? Resources?
Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd.
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 03:58:28 GMT

David M. Razler <david.razler at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>My second primary reference <after the Rules> would be to get a library to
>provide you with the Plan of St. Gall<sp?>, the two-volume reference on a
>period monestary and substantial information on the lives lived by its
>occupants.

Uh, excuse me, that's *three* volumes.  I happen to own a copy.
But I don't know if that'll be of any use to the original poster,
'cause I don't know where he lives.  (Original poster, if you
live in or can get to the Bay Area, do by all means drop by....)

Meanwhile, here's the monk's robe pattern.

Measure the person across the shoulders and down the arms about
four inches.  That's measurement A.  Measure him from nape to
heel.  That's B.

Secure four pieces of cloth (linen or wool are good) measuring A
by B.  Piece 1 is the back, pieces 2 and 3 are the fronts.

Divide piece 4 in three crosswise, so that you have three pieces 
A x B/3.  These will be the sleeves and hood.

Attach 2 and 3 to 1 at the shoulders, leaving a reasonable amount
of the center of 1 unsewn to provide enough neck room (a quick
basting and try-on will help here).  There will be lots of
overlap in the fronts.

Fold each sleeve piece to find the center; match that to the
shoulder seam; sew the sleeve on.  Repeat.  Sew the side seams.

Take the last third of piece 4, fold it in half, seam it on
one side.  That's the back of the hood, and is matched to the
center back.  Sew the bottom edge of the hood to the neckline part
of the back and as far along the fronts as it will extend.  This
makes a very deep hood.

Hem the edges, unless you started with wool and fulled it in the
washing machine, in which case you have a very *warm* habit whose
edges are felted and don't need hemming.

Use a length of thick cotton rope for a belt.

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djheydt at kithrup.com     


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: djheydt at kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
Subject: Re: Portraying a monk? Resources?
Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd.
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 16:30:48 GMT

WillMize <willmize at aol.comBoink> wrote:
> - The difference between a monk and a friar?  I'm assuming from the original
>poster's explaination that a monk has taken certain vows which keep him
>cloistered, whereas a friar is doing more public service.  Any further
>clarification?

That's essentially right.  A monk has taken vows to live the
monastic life, which include "stability to his chosen house".
There's a wonderful line in the Rule that says a monastery should
have everything it needs within its walls--gardens, workshops,
what not--"so that the brothers need never go outside, which can
in no way be good for them."  If they do go outside for any
reason they need permission from the Abbott.  Mind you,
particularly as the centuries rolled on, there arose *lots*
of reasons for getting permission.  Friars came along later--
both the Franciscans and the Dominicans were founded in the
12th century--and they did not take the vow of stability; they
were intended to wander about preaching.

> - I live in Florida and baby, it's hot outside. I'm thinking a dark brown
>linen would be preferrable to a wool (egad!).

Yes, linen will definitely be your thing.  Though wool will
breathe too.

  Any other alternatives?  Any
>other accessories besides a rope belt?  Rosary?  Sandals?  

Sandals.  Rosary, yes, since you said you wanted to be Elizabethan.
(The Rosary in the form we usually see it is also twelfth-century--
the story is that Our Lady gave it to St. Dominic in a vision.)
You will want a simple, unobtrutive  pin or brooch to hold your
robe shut at the neck; the rope belt will hold the rest of it
shut.  In many periods you would also wear a scapular, a simple
arrangement of two narrow panels of fabric, fastened at the
shoulders, and held in place by the belt, but maybe you don't
want to add more fabric yet.  You can put small things (a letter,
e.g.) in the pocket formed by the belted scapular.  Nothing big
enough to show.   Failing that, wear a little drawstring pouch 
on your belt to hold the absolutely necessary essentials: car
keys, ID, money....

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                         Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West                               Albany, California
PRO DEO ET REGE                               djheydt at kithrup.com


From: tadhg at bigfoot.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Portraying a monk? Resources?
Organization: EDS Global Financial Products
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 03:54:03 GMT

Scripsit willmize at aol.comBoink (WillMize) :
 >  After a thirteen year absense, I'm mulling over the possibility of rejoining
 > the SCA and thought I'd portray a man a monk.  Time period uncertain, but
 > leaning toward Elizabethan.  I've tried altavista to no avail for SCAdian
 > references or guilds that have information on such a portrayal and persona.  
 >    Perhaps you good folks might know of such places?  Please respond to the
 > list, as I am sure that I'm not the only one who might be interested.  Thank
 > you kindly.

There are no "Elizabethan" monks. The English monasteries were dissolved by
her father, and monks were illegal in England during her reign; the Church
of England didn't get monks again until the 19th century. If you mean
non-English monks of the same period (1558-1603), you might want to
consider French, German, Spanish, or Italian.

David Knowles, Christian Monasticism
Giles Constable, Medieval Monasticism : a Select Bibliography
Pierre Salmon, The Abbot in Monastic Tradition
Jean Leclerc, Aspects of Monasticism
(unknown), Benedictine Culture 750-1050
Noreen Hunt, Cluniac Monasticism in the Central Middle Ages     H. E. J.
Cowdrey, The Cluniacs and the Gregorian Reform
Peter O'Dwyer, Celi De: Spiritual Reform in Ireland 750-900
Roy Midmer, English Mediaeval Monasteries (1066-1540)
Peter Levi, The Frontiers of Paradise: A Study of Monks and Monasteries
James A. Mohler, The Heresy of Monasticism; the Christian Monks: Types and
Anti-types; an Historical Survey 
John Ryan, Irish Monasticism: Origins and Early Development
Jane E. Sayers, Life in the Medieval Monastery
George Zarnecki, The Monastic Achievement
Christopher Nugent Lawrence Brooke, The Monastic World 1000-1300

That ought to get you started. 
NB: Make sure it's a monk you want, and not a friar.
================================================================================
Fra Tadhg Liath OFT                                            tadhg at bigfoot.com
The Grumpiest Pelican


From: tadhg at bigfoot.com (Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Portraying a monk? Resources?
Organization: EDS Global Financial Products
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 04:27:01 GMT

Scripsit willmize at aol.comBoink (WillMize) :
 >  - The difference between a monk and a friar?  I'm assuming from the original
 > poster's explaination that a monk has taken certain vows which keep him
 > cloistered, whereas a friar is doing more public service.  Any further
 > clarification?

A monk is a member of an autonomous contemplative community, typically
following the Rule of Benedict or one of its variants. A friar is a member
of a mendicant itinerant order -- the four big ones are the Franciscans,
Dominicans, Augustinians, and Carmelites. Monks live away from secular
society; friars live in the middle of it. And that's not to mention the
canons regular, such as the Augustinians, Premonstratensians, Norbertines,
and so forth....

 >  - I live in Florida and baby, it's hot outside. I'm thinking a dark brown
 > linen would be preferrable to a wool (egad!).

A real monk can take the heat. They also use very light white wool in
warmer climates.

 > Any other alternatives?  Any
 > other accessories besides a rope belt?

A pious attitude and an acquaintance with Latin.

 > Rosary?

A substitute for the Liturgy of the Hours among the illiterate. Monks
wouldn't need it. (Yes, you will need to know something about the Divine
Office.)

 > Sandals?

Or shoes -- the film NAME OF THE ROSE shows some good ones. Really Serious
Monks (and friars) went barefoot.
================================================================================
Fra Tadhg Liath OFT                                            tadhg at bigfoot.com
The Grumpiest Pelican


From: dbrummel at io.com (David H. Brummel)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Portraying a monk? Resources?
Date: 25 Nov 98 13:42:54 GMT
Organization: Lough na Dobharchu

Replying to a message of Dr Tiomoid M. of Angle:
 DTMoA> There are no "Elizabethan" monks. The English monasteries were
 DTMoA> dissolved by her father, and monks were illegal in England during
 DTMoA> her reign; the Church of England didn't get monks again until the
 DTMoA> 19th century. If you mean non-English monks of the same period
 DTMoA> (1558-1603), you might want to consider French, German, Spanish,
 DTMoA> or Italian.

For one view of Irish Monasticism during this period, I suggest the following:

  Studies in Irish Cistercian History
  Colmcille O/ Conbhuidhe OCSO
  ed. by Finbarr Donovan
  (c) Mellifont Abbey 1998
  Four Courts Press Ltd, Dublin
  1-85182-378-6 hbk
  1-85182-379-4 pbk

Available from Kennys Bookshops & Art Galleries Ltd. (www.kennys.ie) for
IL15.00 (+s&h).

 DTMoA> Fra Tadhg Liath OFT                                           

OFT = ??  Franciscans?  (I know I *ought* to know this...)

David H. Brummel


From: bnostran at lynx.neu.edu (Barbara Nostrand)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Portraying a monk? Resources?
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 15:38:58 -0600
Organization: de Moivre Institute

Noble Cousins!

Fra Tadhg Liath OFT brings up the abolition of the monasteries. This
is important for Henry as once he broke with Rome he could not afford
Roman feudatories in England. Further, confiscating church land was a
good way to enrich the royal coffers and holdings. This sort of thing
can be found throughout medieval history where enquiries were held 
into the land tenures of religious institutions, etc.

                                    Your Humble Servant
                                    Solveig Throndardotitr
                                    Amateur Scholar


From: abrigon at geocities.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Portraying a monk? Resources?
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 13:01:56 GMT

mariannep wrote:
> willmize at aol.comBoink (WillMize) wrote:
> >Any
> >other accessories besides a rope belt?  Rosary?  Sandals?  Large comfy chair?
> >Oh wait... that's the Inquisition.
>
> For some time we (women, not into cross-dressing) toyed with the idea of
> getting either a extremely worldly bishop or an inquisitor and we did come 
> quite close to getting the latter. Both roles need
> to be handled with some delicacy but have the potential of being fun.
>
> For the bishop, we were ready to make a extremely rich costume (lots of
> brocade here) plus accesories. The "bishop" in question would be a bit of a 
> glutton and perhaps even somewhat lewd. He would probably be one of this 
> bishops appointed for his political connections rather
> than for his devotion and dedication to a saintly life.
>
> For the Inquisitor he could be a Dominican (if Spanish, at least) from a
> not-too-tighly controlled place. Games of dice etc would have to be played 
> away from his gaze (perhaps with somebody guarding the entrance - as soon as 
> the Inquisitor arrives all the ladies change to
> discussing embroidery, all the men to polishing their knives...).
> Also be very careful of inheritances when near the Inquisitor.
>
> Another character I had thought of (though this time for myself, albeit only
> with sporadic appearances) would be a hermit gone mad - mixing up bits of 
> Latin and preaching repentance
> and the end of the world in the most unlikely circumstances. Just
> need a excuse for not being thrown out (cousin of someone powerful?)
>
> Just a few thoughts for slightly odd church characters!
>
> Marianne

Then there is the older tradition in the East of hermits and like, as well as
monestaries.. There is a distinctness to Eastern versus Western Monastisim,
other than maybe in Ireland, Ireland seems to have had a strong Eastern
Influeces sometime in its past, namely in its rules and life style of monks.

It has been a bit since I studied the subject but here goes..

There is like the Apostles, namely Mark and Mathew in the Coptic and other
eastern churches. The Hermit life has some rewards, but over time it came to
past that much like the Essenes of the desert of Israel/Judea c.100bc that
communities could be set up away from society.

St. Columbine and other Irish/Scotish monks/missionaries preached an even
harder rule than the later Augustian rule, but it fell along the way side
since many europeans could not get into it.

Some orders believed in silence contemplation, while others believed in
working for your daily bread.

Some set them selves off in forbidding places, and either had individual
cells where as the Monks would only gather for select times. Contant prayer
was often called on, to include self denial training.

Other monks went into for a less auster and more open life style of service to
humanity instead of praying for humanity, they often lived near communities.

So the basic rules are like: Columbine, Augustian, Benedictine, Francican and
there is others, but most are based in the west on Augustian (who based his
somewhat on the earlier Columbine, but not that much).

The western tradition has had some definite different ways and means than the
east.

Will see about going into it more later, when I get some sleep, and read more
again ont he subject again..

Frater Morgoth (de Wyrd).
Wandering Crimean Goth in 12th century latin/frankish west.


Subject: monks habits
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:35:41 MST
From: wenner <wenner at pdq.net>
To: "Mark.S Harris (rsve60)" <rsve60 at email.sps.mot.com>

Enjoy the florilegiium.  On the monks' habits section, I would like to
note that in England, areas of London were called "Blackfriars"
"Greyfriars" and "Whitefriars" after the Benedictine, Franciscan, and
Carmelites respectively, although the Benedictines strictly speaking are
not friars.  By the way, only Benedictines take a vow of stability. I
think only Franciscans and branches thereof (like the cloistered,
white-robed Carthusians, who take a vow of silence) wear a rope cincture
with the knots, which symbolize the vows they take.  The other orders
wore some version of a leather belt.  The Domican friars wore white
tunic, cowl,  scapular and mantle, with a black cloak. They alone.  I do
not think Benecictines wear (wore) a scapular.  The rosary was divinely
given to the Dominican order, and when it is worn on the belt of the
habit, it has all fifteen decades (groups of ten beads--"aves", or Hail
Mary prayers,--separated by one bead--"paters" or the Lord's Prayer.)
Other orders sometimes adopted wearing it with some
differences--Carmelites, for example wear a belt rosary of six decades.
By the way, the Carmelites came to europe from the middle east after the
failure of the crusades--when they came, they wore a grey or brown tunic
with a brown scapular, and a cloak with seven broad bars--three white
interspersed by four brown. They had been a laura (group) of hermits
living in caves on Mt Carmel in (then) Palestine but when the reached
England they were told that they were henceforward to be friars,
although they made monasteries and tried to keep a quiet life as befit
former hermits.   The English people thought the striped cloaks
hysterically funny, and called the poor Carmelites "magpie monks" and so
the prior general--an English former hermit elected to head the order,
known to history as St Simon Stock--changed the cloak colour to plain
white, hence the sobriquet "whitefriars."  I do not know what colour the
robes of the Augustinian monks wore, not the Premonstratensians, which
is the only "native" order founded in England.   All orders, or course,
were swept away by Henry VIII at the reformation.


Subject: Re: monks habits, etc
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 99 11:57:22 MST
From: wenner <wenner at pdq.net>
To: "Mark.S Harris (rsve60)" <rsve60 at email.sps.mot.com>

Mark.S Harris wrote:
> Thank you for this information on monks and their habits. This is a
> Wonderful message with the details that are useful for both understanding
> the orders and what they wore. 

> Do you have any particular referances to recommend?  

Hummm---these gleanings are from several years of reading/research on English history in the 15-16th centuries. Most of the old and valuable  books are out of print, and available to me only at a private library belonging to a Catholic Seminary (branch of University of St Thomas) in Houston.  I am one of the few lay people to have a library card to the place because I am a research assistant to a priest who is also a Texas historian.  I do his frontier Texas stuff, then I race off to the mediaval goodies and devour wonderful books on mediaval law, sociology, architecture, archaelogy until I'm cross-eyed. Eat your heart out!  

I should explain why there are so many different orders: each has a
different charism ( translate that variously as character, purpose and
spirituality) which attracts a different sort of person. Benedictines are
sort of a "general purpose" order, which is why they were such a major
influence on the English, who have as a race a traditional preference for
the "middle way" in matters religious as well as political; there was an
equal balance between the purely spiritual, and charitable activity in the
world; between the intellectual and the emotional; between manual labour
and scholarly persuits. Well-balanced, sane, and what today we call a
holistic balanced life.  

About the Augustinians I am not sure; I think they tended more towards the purely spiritual, but tended to be fascinated with study of theology as a springboard to interior spiritual development.

The Dominicans and Franciscans arose deliberately as roving evangelists
(no monasteries) in response to the heresies which could too easily
corrupt the simple faith of uneducated laypeople.  The Dominicans, significantly, are known as the "order of preachers" and their role is traditionally to take sophistocated theology and make it easily understood by laymen. They quite easily took to the role of school teachers at all levels, and until the Jesuits formed, were the pre-eminent intellectual order of the Church.  The modern missionary order of the Maryknolls who work in Africa and the Far east are a branch of the Dominicans.  

The Franciscans were non-intellectuals (althought they produced some noteworthy scholars like Bonaventure and John Duns Scotius, who taught at major universities) who through their simplicity and joy in God's creation "preached" by example complete trust in God's love and unselfish love of neighbor.  You can think of them as a order of holy troubadors or poets, and you will about have it right. Unsuprizingly, the artist Fra Angelico was a Franciscan.  

The Carmelites were (are) contemplative mystics, wrapped up in the wonder of God's holiness and love.  You don't hear much about them, because they've always kept a low profile in their priories, but they are a dynamo of spiritual energy praying for the salvation of the world.  Because of their close union with God, the best Carmelites to this day can pray for and obtain miracles, if these are beneficial to the salvation of souls. If you put a very spiritually advanced Carmelite with a similar Sufi (mystic Muslim ) and a Hadassim (mystic Jew) the three of them would each delight in the company of the others without any discord, not because they have no theological differences, but rather because they have reached, according to their different spiritualities worshiping the one God, living the highest wisdom: on this earth--madly in love with God for His own sake rather than the gifts He gives, seeing His image in every human being, --and full of kindness and compassion for the rest of suffering humanity who has not yet attained their height of spiritual perfection.   

Different topic:  on "rosaries" somebody wanted to know about "Tudor rosaries" --well, remember The Tudors started with Henry VII who was a good if unremarkable Catholic, and included Queen (Bloody) Mary who was a fanatical one (Pope St Pius V told Her to lighten up and merely be tolerant of individual religious freedom, because the English people had suffered too much chopping and changing already; but she wouldn't listen). The Tudors of course are identified with Henry VIII and Elizabeth I who were protestant; but it so happens that when Mary was on the throne, she gave her teen-aged half-sister Elizabeth the  gift of a coral rosary. (So I recall from reading a biography of young Elizabeth some years ago.) So there you have a Tudor rosary, at least of the upper classes.  By the way the Saxon word "bede" means prayer--hence the name of Venerable St Bede, England's first historian.  It is possbly true that the crusaders saw the muslim "rosary" of 99 beads with a tassel (for the 99 praise-name of Allah) and got the idea to make a chaplet of 150 prayers (for the 150 psalms,which most laypeople couldn't read or memorise, like the monks) of beads on a string.  the 150 was divided into three groups of 50 for brevity's sake, which is the structure of the modern rosary.

--Raven Wenner


Subject: Re: monks habits, etc
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 99 09:00:38 MST
From: wenner <wenner at pdq.net>
To: "Mark.S Harris (rsve60)" <rsve60 at email.sps.mot.com>

....It often seems new orders formed when the older orders had changed and
some folks thought they had forsaken their original purposes.  Hey, plenty
of orders disappeared when they outlived their purposes--for exapmple, the
orders of "fighting monks" who protected pilgrims going to the holy
land--The Knights Templars, etc.  (BTW: The modern Rosicrucians have no
genuine historical and religious link to the former--)also  the orders
dedicated to ransoming Christian slaves from the Moors, the really wierd
"Brothers of Death formed in response to widespread depression in the wake
of the Black Death," etc.  Many orders with several branches,e.g.,
Benedicitines, Franciscans, formed those branches as "reforms" trying to
refine or get back to the original founder's spirit under conditions in
changing societies.  There are the ancient order of Carmelites, and then in
1562 the "discalced" (unshod, barefoot) reform pioneered by one of the
wittiest and most intelligent and charismatic women in european history, St
Teresa of Avila.  The discalced now outnumber the ancient order, though
both are extremely ascetic.

English religious art-history is my hobby,( (I am married to a Brit and am
lucky enough to go to our family farm in Lancashire one month each year,
where I can look at old churches and rumage through historical libraries)
and I have written a couple of articles on English mediaval shrines for
spcialty religious publications.  Don't be scared off, I'm not a
proselitizer--I'm just fascinated by history and if you want to call it,
religious sociology--how religion affected folklore, customs, politics,
daily life of people then.  I'm really hot on Marian shrines, many of them
having holy wells which have been sacred sites since neolithic times.
There is an excellent  source readily availible to anyone wanting to learn
about the history of religious orders, including some info on habits:  the
1913 edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia on the "New Advent" web page
(use search engine, it will turn up easily) Only problem is, you have to
know what it it is you want before you can look it up.  I suggest people
wanting to learn about monks to start with the entry "Religious Orders"
and the order names; "Order of St Benedict" or Benecitctines, or
Augustininians, Norbertines, etc.  They have a user-friendly index and a
lot of stuff is cross-referenced within articles to define terms that may
puzzle the beginner. Most articles are surprizingly well-written.   Also,
under the hundreds of listings for saints, there are some real
"characters" for anybody wanting a really way-out and frequently quite
charming and attractive persona.  Don't be put off by the number of saints
who have "visions"--they weren't hysterics, and were often genuinely
psychic.  Even non-Catholics have visions, even today. (Just ask hospital
chaplains of any denominations--people severely ill or injured sometimes
have mystical experiences, but they don't confide them to just anybody)
another book, only for scholars or the truly dedicated, is a remarkable
recent book called "The stripping of the altars. . ." Popular religion in
England 14--15--" by Cambridge scholar Eamon Duffy or Duffey (look for it
on Amazon, you'll find it)  Some better public libraries have it. I forget
the blank year dates, but it's a fascinating study of the sociology of the
English church in the two generations on each side (before and after, as
it were)of the English Reformation.  This book is a modern classic, and is
the best of what modern revisionist history can be.  I do not recommend it
for any but those accustomed to reading scholarly studies--reading too
much at one time can make you cross-eyed with detail.  However, it is
stylish and frequently humourous, as human nature remains the same in
every age--minutes of a parish meeting in the 15th century to figure out
how to repair the leaking church roof can make you laugh out loud when
you've recently returned from one just like it in your own 20th century
parish; likewise the petty politics of one religious guild ("ladies'
auxilliary") with another for prestige in mounting the best decoration on
a parish feast day will raise a smile. There is a lot about folk-ways in
it, too, superstitious mixtures of prayers to prevent the souring of milk,
curing a toothache, etc.  This book is valuable for giving the "texture"
of religious life before Protestantism caused such emotional upheval in
society, which is important to any understanding of the mediaval religious
experience. 

 --Raven Wenner


From: Michelle Donovan Lunt <varmint at stny.lrun.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pained Decision: Monk or Norseman?
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 18:18:08 -0400
Organization: Time Warner Road Runner - Binghamton NY

Matt Clark wrote:
>  I am facing a dilemma of the minor sort. As a new member, I have to
> choose my persona, and I cannot decide what I want to be.
> 
>  I would like to be a monk, preferably of the Benedictine order. (Maybe
> Jesuit so I can fight) I go to a Benedictine school and I would like to
> find out more about those "guys in black that teach." This would give me
> an excuse to study them. I would choose my exact era later.

I'm also trying to develop my persona now - so I understand!

I don't know much about the Viking angle, but I learned a bit about some
of the religious orders while studying medieval art in grad school. But
you might look into the history of religious orders in Scandinavia -
perhaps you could be a Norseman _and_ a monk (though I doubt it)!

Keep in mind that a Jesuit persona would pretty much require you to be
late period since the order was founded in 1541 (or 1534, depending on
your source). Also, the Jesuit headquarters were in Paris, so such a
persona must have spent some time in Paris, at least for the appropriate
Jesuit education. The Jesuits were founded by an ex-soldier, but they
were primarily a teaching and evangelical order. They specialized in
cultural studies; by knowing a culture and its ways, they could learn
what arguments for Christianity would work best to convert its people.

For an earlier fighting/religious persona, you might want to consider
the Crusades era military orders. The members of these orders lived
according to "rules" similar to those of the monastic orders, but also
incorporating fighting. The earliest of these is the Templars, founded
in 1120 to protect pilgrims to the Holy Land; within a few years, they
were also taking part in battles against the Muslims. The Hospitallers
of St. John, the Teutonic Order and the Order of St. Thomas of Acre are
others. Of course, this option would require that your persons has spent
some time in the Holy Land. From the weather reports from Pennsic, this
might be a good one since when you pull out the middle eastern garb to
get cool, you have a story to tell and a good reason to have such garb!
(I'm considering a persona who's spent time in the East myself, for that
reason.)

A Benedictine persona might well depend on the era you choose. In the
early middle ages, the Benedictines were attempting to establish
themselves as an order, by the high middle ages, they had become
dominant through their near monopoly on education, but also very wealthy
and (along with the wealth) perhaps a bit corrupt. Soon after this, the
cathedral schools and universities developed, and as they grew in size
and number, they began to eat away at the Benedictines main contribution
to medieval society. Criticism of the corruption mounted, culminating
the the foundation of a number of reformed orders (among them the
Cistercians and later the Franciscans and Dominicans). If your persona
likes shaking things up, you might be a rebellious late period
(12th-13th c.) Benedictine who is in sympathy with the reformers,
whereas if your persona likes the good life, you might wish to be a mid
era (10th -11th c.) monk from a wealthy monastery such as Cluny.

Michelle - in search of persona and name!


From: "Dr. Tiomoid M. of Angle" <tadhg at bigfoot.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pained Decision: Monk or Norseman?
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 22:59:59 GMT

Matt Clark wrote:
>  I would like to be a monk, preferably of the Benedictine order.

Excellent choice! A basic persona suitable to any time and place in period. You
might want to study Latin, just for verisimilitude.

        Timothy Fry, ed., THE RULE OF ST BENEDICT, ISBN 037570017X
        Hugh Feiss, ed. & tr., ESSENTIAL MONASTIC WISDOM, ISBN 0060624833
        Columba Stewart, PRAYER AND COMMUNITY: THE BENEDICTINE TRADITION, ISBN
1570752192

> (Maybe Jesuit so I can fight)

(a) Jesuits are very late period. See http://www.uofs.edu/admin/jeshist.html.
(b) Jesuits didn't fight except in self-defense. They were mostly teachers and
missionaries.

"After its founding in 1540, the Society of Jesus grew rapidly and assumed an
important role in the renewal of the Catholic Church. Jesuits were educators, scholars, and missionaries throughout the world. They were also preachers and catechists who devoted themselves to the young, the sick, prisoners, prostitutes, and soldiers. They were often called upon to be confessors to the ruling families of Europe." (Ibid.)

(c) If you want to be a monk and fight, be one of the military religious orders:
Templar, Hospitallar, Teutonic, Santiago, Calatrava, Alcantara. 

        Desmond Seward, THE MONKS OF WAR: THE MILITARY RELIGIOUS ORDERS, Penguin USA, ISBN 0140195017, $11.16 at Amazon). 

But be aware that they followed a variant of the Augustinian Rule, not the
Benedictine.

> I go to a Benedictine school and I would like to find out more about those 
> "guys  in black that teach."

Well, that would be the Black Friars (Dominicans). In period, Benedictines
weren't all that involved in teaching; their main goal was the life a sanctified
life apart from the world.

> This would give me an excuse to study them. 

[You need an excuse to study something you're interested in? Whoa....]

> I would choose my exact era later.

No need even to do that. A Benedicting persona will fit in anywhere (same garb,
same interests) from 600 A.D. to 1600 A.D. It's a very low-maintenance persona.

Fra Tadhg Liath OFT
The Grumpiest Pelican
SCITIS IMPLETI * NOSCE IGNOTIS


From: Sk8maven <sk8maven at monumental.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pained Decision: Monk or Norseman?
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 19:36:15 -0400

Michelle Donovan Lunt wrote:
> you might look into the history of religious orders in Scandinavia -
> perhaps you could be a Norseman _and_ a monk (though I doubt it)!

Once the Scandinavian countries were Christianized (roughly circa AD
1000), it was *very* possible. Norsemen even served in the various
fighting Orders. You would be likeliest to find them in the Teutonic
Knights, due to geographic proximity, but they were also Templars and
Hospitallers, and and some just went Crusading on their own the way they
used to go a-Viking.

I'm afraid being Norse and a Jesuit is right out, though - the
Scandinavian countries went Lutheran right about the time the Jesuit
order (Catholic) was being founded.


From: Gil/Caichear <caichearsca at uswest.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pained Decision: Monk or Norseman?
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 11:14:04 -0600

One good place to look for more information on the Order of Saint benedict
is the Official Website:
http://www.osb.org/

Caichear mac Giolla Muire


From: demery at ieaccess.net (Dana S. Emery)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pained Decision: Monk or Norseman?
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 22:06:44 -0400

no problem being a monk, and generally pretty easy to garb, so a common
initial personna.  However when playing in the SCA you are obviously 'in
the world', so would not be part of a cloistered order.

The military orders of knights templar and knights hospitaler are another
possibility, and to this end I commend you to a recent book I found at
Barnes & NObles for $7.98 - Eric Brockman, "The two sieges of Rhodes: The
Knights of St. John at War 1480-1522.
-- 
Dana S. Emery
demery at ieaccess.net


From: MClark2 at webtv.net (Matt Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pained Decision: Monk or Norseman?
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 14:17:46 -0500 (CDT)

I was looking through the Rule of Saint Benedict (Yes I have it at home)
and I came across a certain section dealing with the Brothers who are
sent away.  

Excerpt: Chapter 50. Brothers Working at a Distance or Traveling.
Brothers who work so far away that they cannot return to the oratory at
the proper time-and the abbot determines that is the case-are to perform
the Work of God where they are, and kneel out of reverence to God.

This would lead me to believe that St. Benedict knew that the monks
would be gone from the monastery for a journey. What could this journey
be? We know that they ran errands between monasteries and other places,
but when you factor in Boniface, who I mentioned earlier, it seems to
paint a picture that some Benedictines did go forth and proclaim the
Good News.  

 With this evidence, I think it is safe to say that some Benedictines
did preach the Gospel.

Matthew William Clark


From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pained Decision: Monk or Norseman?
Date: 20 Aug 1999 16:50:13 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC

Greetings from Arval!  Matt Clark quoted:
> Excerpt: Chapter 50. Brothers Working at a Distance or Traveling.
> Brothers who work so far away that they cannot return to the oratory at
> the proper time-and the abbot determines that is the case-are to perform
> the Work of God where they are, and kneel out of reverence to God.

and interpretted:

> This would lead me to believe that St. Benedict knew that the monks would
> be gone from the monastery for a journey. What could this journey be? We
> know that they ran errands between monasteries and other places, but when
> you factor in Boniface, who I mentioned earlier, it seems to paint a
> picture that some Benedictines did go forth and proclaim the Good News.
> With this evidence, I think it is safe to say that some Benedictines did
> preach the Gospel.

I'm sorry, but the passage you quoted doesn't support that conclusion at
all.  Working "so far away that they cannot return to the oratory" says
nothing at all about what the monks were doing.  They could have been
gathering herbs in the forest, tending sheep in the hills, visiting the
sick in outlying settlements, harvesting grain from a distant field, or any
of a thousand other tasks that have nothing to do with preaching.  
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord                                         mittle at panix.com


From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" <nicolaaMUNGED at columbus.rr.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pained Decision: Monk or Norseman?
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 20:54:46 -0400
Organization: Road Runner Columbus

>> I just am saying that Saint Benedict left many possiblities open with
>> this rule about being able to leave the monestary for extended lengths of
>> time.  Including preaching.
>
>Also including walking on the moon.  That doesn't provide any support at
>all for your belief that they _did_ preach.

From what I can tell, the early missions conducted by the Benedictines to
the Germanic peoples did not involve preaching as we know it--that is, in a
formal sermon. Sermons were still seen as exercises for the learned, and
thus somewhat unsuitable for those who were the targets of missions. In many
cases, the missionaries targeted the leading citizens of a community
(royalty and other leading men) for personal evangelization, and generally,
if they converted, the rest of the community would eventually follow suit.
There is a tendency to assume that people converted then much as they did
today--after hearing sermons,or studing scripture, or otherwise learning
about the faith.  Those in the leading positions may have done this, but
often their people converted first and learned about the faith afterwards.

Sermons were more common by the eleventh or twelfth century, but were almost
exclusively given by secular clergy, rather than the cloistered. Heck, what
was considered so revolutionary about the mendicant orders of the thirteenth
century, including the Dominicans (or Order of Preachers) is that they were
regular clergy (that is, living under a Rule) who were not cloistered, but
rather travelled around in the community. Sermons were often part of this.
This coincides with a rise in interest in hearing sermons (especially those
preached by learned clergy, which the Dominicans were required to be)
amongst the laity.

Nicolaa
 

[Submitted by: "Alderton, Philippa" <phlip at MORGANCO.NET>]
From: Paul Halsall <phalsall at unf.edu>
To: byzans-l at lists.missouri.edu <byzans-l at lists.missouri.edu>;
mediev-l at ukans.edu <mediev-l at ukans.edu>
Date: Monday, November 08, 1999 5:04 PM
Subject: Chilander on CD

>Chilander is a monastery on Mount Athos which in 1198 was refounded by
>St. Sava as a the Serbian monastery on Athos.
>
>At the Byzantine Studies Conference this past weekend Dr. Taylor
>Hostetter [hilandercd at hotmail.com] presented one of the most fascinating
>CD-Roms I have ever seen.
>
>Called, _In the Heart of Hilander_ ($32) it is a complete three
>dimensional presentation of the monastery church of the foundation. The
>work presents a complete photographic record of the inside and outside
>of the Church (think of a sort of Byzantine version of Myst or Doom), in
>which every image of the Church is viewable, many in different sizes
>(although the pictures are not scalable.) Moving the cursor over each
>image calls up the identity of the figure in question, feast days of the
>figure, and a great deal of additional information.
>
>The work allow much more than this. It also allows sectional views,
>views of the monastery church at different periods of its construction,
>examination of the use of space, and an ability to see the frescos
>without the current monastic furniture (iconstands and so forth.)
>
>Other modules allow you to play Serbian church music in the background,
>to explore the architectural forms of a Byzantine church, to trace the
>history of Mt Athos, and even to follow Bible stories through the
>paintings. There are even a series of inbuilt databases on the images
>which users can access.
>
>In all the disk claims to contain nearly 5000 images on over 3000 pages,
>with the ability to see every one of the 950 wall paintings individually
>and in context.
>
>In other words, this is a stunning achievement -- a CD which does things
>that no book can do, and in a depth that will satisfy almost anyone. The
>promise that it might be a model for further presentations of
>architectural monuments is only icing on the cake.
>
>Supposedly a website on the project will be set up soon -- with the URL
>http://www.digitalbyzantium.com
>or
>http://digitalbyzantium.com
>
>In the meantime, I really would encourage any one who wants to enthuse
>students about Byzantium, the medieval Balkans, or the middle ages in
>general, to get hold of the disk. Students I have been showing it to in
>my office all day long have left with their eyes popping.
>
>Paul Halsall


Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:55:31 EST
From: <SNSpies at aol.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Fwd: Merovingian nuns

<< Does the Benedictine Rule include information on what the monks/nuns
wore?>>

Let me answer my own question!

According to  Chapter 55 of the Rule of St. Benedict, written in the 6th
century by Benedict of Nursia, Abbot of Monte Cassino, "we believe ... that
in ordinary places the following dress is sufficient for each monk:  a tunic,
a cowl (thick and woolly for winter, thin or worn for summer), a scapular for
work, stockings and shoes to cover the feet.  The monks should not complain
about the color or the coarseness of any of these things, but be content with
what can be found in the district where they live and can be purchased
cheaply."

Further, "... it is sufficient if a monk has two tunics and two cowls, to
allow for night wear and for the washing of these garments ... Those who are
sent on a journey shall receive drawers from the wardrobe, which they shall
wash and restore on their return.  And let their cowls and tunics be somewhat
better than what they usually wear."

From what I can gather, nuns following the Benedictine Rules wore the same
clothing.

Nancy


Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:34:44 -0600 (CST)
From: "Pixel, Queen of Cats" <pixel at hundred-acre-wood.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: the Holy rule

On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 Seton1355 at aol.com wrote:
> Does anyone have information or a website that would list the different rules
> of the different orders?
> Phillipa

The page www.newadvent.org is a Catholic site with the Catholic
Encyclopedia on it. It has some useful information about the various
orders and rules, at least the little I've looked at.

Margaret FitzWilliam of Kent
College of Tor Aerie


Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 17:38:35 -0500
From: "Kate/Constance" <fairfax at tir.com>
To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: RE: the Holy rule

Rule of St. Benedict
http://www.osb.org/rb/

This rule, written around 530, became dominant in the 8th century.  Most
monasteries followed this rule, although there were often some
modifications.
The Cluniac and Carthusian monastic movements both used the Benedictine
rule--so did the monasteries they were trying to reform.

Rule of St. Augustine
http://www.domcentral.org/trad/rule.htm

This rule of life was used by a number of groups in the Middle Ages.
St. Dominic adopted it as the rule for the Dominicans, and in the 13th
century (don't have the exact date off the top of my head) a number of
independent hermits and small monasteries were consolidated under the
same rule to form the Order of St. Augustine.

The Benedictine and Augustinian rules were also used for women's
monasteries, although they were often modified.  The Benedictine site
has some of these modified versions of the Benedictine rule from the
Middle Ages.

Regula Bullata of St. Francis (1223)
http://ofm.org/1/info/Rule.html

This is the rule that was approved by the Pope for the Franciscan order.
There are two earlier rules; the rule of 1210 has been lost and the rule
of 1221 was not approved by the Pope; it was replaced with this version,
which is still in force.

St. Clare of Assisi wanted to develop a women's order like the Franciscans,
who went into the world instead of staying in cloistered monasteries.
However, she wasn't able to get approval for an order of religious women
who were "in the world," and so the "Poor Clares" became a cloistered
order.  I wasn't able to find a Web page with the Rule of St. Clare on it.

Alan Fairfax


Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:06:15 -0500
From: "Kate/Constance" <fairfax at tir.com>
To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: RE: the Holy rule

I doubt that this is a question that can be answered with any
certainty.  The Benedictine rule was not dominant in Europe in the 6th
century; a lot of convents had their own rules or used a different
ones.  I've seen references to the Rule of St. John Cassian, the Rule of
St. Augustine, and the Rule of the Master--the only one I found text for was
the Augustinian Rule.  That says:

"Avoid singularity in dress, and strive to please others by your conduct and
not by your clothes. Whenever you go out, walk together; when you reach the
place where you are going, remain together. Let there be nothing to offend
the eyes of anyone, whether in your gait, your posture, your dress, or your
movements, but let everything about you be in keeping with the holiness of
your state."

The Rule of St. Benedict, 55, says:

"Let clothing be given to the brethren according to the nature of the place
in which they dwell and its climate; for in cold regions more will be
needed, and in warm regions less. This is to be taken into consideration,
therefore, by the Abbot.

We believe, however, that in ordinary places the following dress is
sufficient for each monk: a tunic, a cowl (thick and woolly for winter, thin
or worn for summer), a scapular for work, stockings and shoes (pedules et
caligas) to cover the feet.

The monks should not complain about the color or the coarseness of any of
these things, but be content with what can be found in the district where
they live and can be purchased cheaply.

The Abbot shall see to the size of the garments, that they be not too short
for those who wear them, but of the proper fit.

Let those who receive new clothes always give back the old ones at once, to
be put away in the wardrobe for the poor. For it is sufficient if a monk has
two tunics and two cowls, to allow for night wear and for the washing of
these garments; more than that is superfluity and should be taken away. Let
them return their stockings also and anything else that is old when they
receive new ones.

Those who are sent on a journey shall receive drawers (femoralias) from the
wardrobe, which they shall wash and restore on their return. And let their
cowls and tunics be somewhat better than what they usually wear. These they
shall receive from the wardrobe when they set out on a journey, and restore
when they return."

Unfortunately I didn't find any reference to surviving copies of women's
monastic rules from this period.  There is a 9th-C. Old English translation
of the Benedictine Rule that was supposedly adapted for women soon after it
was written, but the earliest surviving adaption dates only to the
1200s.  But, based on the descriptions, it sounds like simple, modest
clothing from the area you're in would be appropriate.

Fairfax

P.S.  I checked this translation against the Latin document, and it is a
good translation.


Subject: Monk's Robe
From: Rubix <rubixNOruSPAM at bigfoot.com.invalid>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 09:13:48 -0700

I'm not involved in the SCA, but have been doing some research
on how to make a tradtional Monk's Robe.  I found this in the
rec.org.sca archives and was wondering how authentic it really
is:

<snip>
Meanwhile, here's the monk's robe pattern.

Measure the person across the shoulders and down the arms about
four inches. That's measurement A. Measure him from nape to
heel. That's B.

Secure four pieces of cloth (linen or wool are good) measuring A
by B. Piece 1 is the back, pieces 2 and 3 are the fronts.

Divide piece 4 in three crosswise, so that you have three pieces
A x B/3. These will be the sleeves and hood.

Attach 2 and 3 to 1 at the shoulders, leaving a reasonable
amount of the center of 1 unsewn to provide enough neck room (a
quick basting and try-on will help here). There will be lots of
overlap in the fronts.

Fold each sleeve piece to find the center; match that to the
shoulder seam; sew the sleeve on. Repeat. Sew the side seams.

Take the last third of piece 4, fold it in half, seam it on one
side. That's the back of the hood, and is matched to the center
back. Sew the bottom edge of the hood to the neckline part of
the back and as far along the fronts as it will extend. This
makes a very deep hood.

Hem the edges, unless you started with wool and fulled it in the
washing machine, in which case you have a very *warm* habit
whose edges are felted and don't need hemming.

Use a length of thick cotton rope for a belt.
<snip>


Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 12:43:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: SC - St. Benedict the Black

And according to my calendar, this is the feast day of
St. Benedict the Black, a 16th century monk renowned
as a superb chef, who promoted the idea, revolutionary
among the faithful, that enjoying food was not sinful.
A manuscript by an earlier monk, Giraldus Cambrensis,
written in 1179, reflected his reaction to banquet
fare: "For you might see so many kinds of fish, roast
and boiled, stuffed and fried, so many dishes
contrived with eggs and pepper by dextrous cooks, so
many flavorings and condiments, compounded together
with like dexterity to tickle gluttony and awaken
appetite."

Does anyone know about the writings of Giraldus
Cambrensis?  Or about the writings of St. Benedict?

Huette


Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 15:23:52 -0500 
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - St. Benedict the Black

> Does anyone know about the writings of Giraldus
> Cambrensis?  Or about the writings of St. Benedict?
> 
> Huette

Benedict the Black was not a writer.  Also known as Benedict the Moor, he
was a Negro (hence il Moro) born into slavery in and freed by his master
around age 18.  He joined a Franciscan monastery in Sicily and was reknowned
for his humility and his piety.

Giraldus Cambrensis (Gerald de Barry) was quite a writer.  Here is what the
Catholic Encyclopedia ( http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06568d.htm ) has to
say about him:

"De Barry was a writer of remarkable brilliancy and force, a narrator rather
than a historian, full of self-confidence, and at times courage, and on the
whole neither the model of perfection which he proclaims himself to be, nor
the despicable character which he is oftentimes painted. His works are
published in the Rolls Series; and in the prefaces to the volumes
indications as to probable dates of composition and publication. Appended is
a list of de Barry's writings: "Topographia Hibernica"; "Expugnatio
Hibernica"; "Itinerarium CambriÊ"; "Gemma Ecclesiastica"; De Instructione
Principum"; "De Rebus a se gestis"; "Vita S. Davidis II episcopi Menevensis"
(which Brewer considers as, more probably, the work of Giraldus);
"Descriptio CambriÊ" (published as the last); "Vita Galfridi Arch.
Eboracensis"; "Symbolum Electorum"; "Invectionum Libellus"; "Speculum
EcclesiÊ"; "Vita S. Remigli"; "Vita S. Hugonis"; "Vita S. Davidis
archiepiscopi Menevensis"; "Vita S. Ethelberti"; "Epistola ad Stephanum
Langton"; "De Giraldo Archidiacono Menevensi"; "De Libris a se scriptis";
"Catalogus brevior librorum"; "Retractationes"; "De jure Menevensis
EcclesiÊ". See introduction to his works by the editors, Brewer and Dimock. 

The works of Giraldus dealing especially with Ireland: the "Topography", and
"History of the Conquest", though long regarded as possessing considerable
authority, did not escape hostile criticism. In "Cambrensis Eversus" (1662),
under the pseudonym of Gratianus Lucius, Dr. Lynch, of whose personal
history little is known, produced a work which, though controversial in
character, entitles the author to repute rather as a painstaking chronicler
than as a controversialist of a high order. After criticizing the
"Topography" adversely, and showing that the title of the second book, the
"Conquest of Ireland", is a misnomer, the writer of "Cambrensis Eversus"
disproves de Barry's title of historian, and meets his charges against the
Irish people. Giraldus is impeached with ignorance of the language, and
unfamiliarity with the country; he is said to have embodied in his works
unauthenticated narratives, with little regard for chronology; his own
admission that he had "followed the popular rumours of the land" is extended
in meaning, and perhaps unduly insisted upon. 

Nor is the "Cambrensis Eversus" merely a collection of arbitrary accusations
and unsubstantial rejoinders, made with a view to effect the discredit of de
Barry as a writer of history. What might be urged as the greatest
imperfection of Lynch's polemic, its too great wealth of detail, had not
escaped the attention of the able author, who excuses the diffuseness to
which he is compelled by asseverating his determination to follow Giraldus
closely to the end. Whatever may be said as to the ability with which Lynch
discharged his task of controversialist, there can be no denial of the
thoroughness and, above all, the sincerity of his methods. He does not pick
out the weak points in his opponent's armour, and never shirks the issue;
but grapples with every difficulty, as the order of his opponent suggests. 

Perhaps the most serious accusation levelled against Giraldus, next to the
indictment of bias and dishonesty, is that wherein he is impeached of being
addicted to the cult of the superstitious and the practice of witchcraft. If
this be true, and Merlin would seem to have exercised a considerable sway
over the mind of de Barry, then it would be vain to seek in the writings of
the latter the reflex of that calm discrimination and sober balance of
judgment which should characterize the historian. Finally, it may be said
that the student of Irish history, by reading the works of Giraldus in the
light of "Cambrensis Eversus", cannot fail to derive a helpful knowledge of
the period which they embrace."

Bear


Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:41:36 -0600
From: Robert Downie <rdownie at mb.sympatico.ca>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] I Got My Portuguese Convent Sweets Books -
	Who-hoo!
To: SCA_Subtleties at yahoogroups.com, SCA-Cooks at ansteorra.org,
	SCAFoodandFeasts at yahoogroups.com

And only 20 Euros for shipping...grumble, grumble...

Mesa, Doces e Amores no Sec XVII (the table, sweets and passions in the 17th C)
Docaria Conventual do Alentejo as Receitas e o Seu Enquadramento
Historico (convent sweets of Alentejo, the recipes and their history)
Docaria Conventual do Norte Historia e Alquimia da Farinha (convent
sweets of the north, history and alchemy of flour)

Of course, now it's going to take me a while to go through them.
Unfortunately, in quickly skimming the contents, the recipes are not
dated, so there could be modern ones along with the originals.  One of
the introductory chapters mentioned the rise of convent sweets starting
in the second half of the 16th C, and truly blossoming by the 17th C.
and that many of the sweets were created specifically for the nobility,
as these religious orders were also responsible for entertaining Kings.

I'll keep notes as I go along, and eventually I hope to have some
useful information to share.  There's a fair amount of info on monastic
life in General there too, by the looks of it.

Faerisa


From: Clarissa Cosgrove <henpeckerssociety at earthlink.net>
Date: February 22, 2006 3:16:02 PM CST
To: stefan at florilegium.org
Subject: monks-msg

Stefan,
(You may want to add this bit of info to your "Monks-Msg" thread.)

I have been looking into what the New Mexico priests were wearing over the
last 400 years.  The Jesuit priest (16th century) wore black habits.  The
Franciscan priests wore gray habits up to the year of 1832. It was after
1832 that the Franciscan Order started to wear brown habits. 

When the Franciscan priests were established in New Mexico in the 1600s,
there were some Indian (Native American) sightings of a lady in blue
speaking in many different languages.  Father Benivides who led the first
Franciscan Friars to New Mexico suspected the apparitions were of Sister
Maria de Jesus Ágreda. They referred to her as the blue nun because of the
blue celestial color of her mantle.  Sister Maria de Jesus Ágreda spoke of
visions of visiting Northern New Mexico.  The sightings were between 1620
and 1639.  It wasn't uncommon for New Mexican Franciscan priests to wear
habits of blue after that and up to the 1800s.  I believe they would dye
their gray habits to blue.  Some references suggest the habits were light
blue, and then there is a reference of the habits being the color of demin.
If they were dyeing their gray habits blue, I would suspect the habits to be
a darker hue of blue.

St. Anthony de Padua, the patron saint of lost things, was a Franciscan
priest and has been represented in a habit of brown, but I am not sure if
that was the case before the 19th century.  He was born in 1195 in Lisbon,
Portugal.  Saint Francis of Assisi was born 1181 in Italy.  I venture to
guess that St. Anthony must have joined the Franciscan Order about the time
it started. Customarily, Franciscan habits were supposed to have been made
of undyed lamb's wool of a grayish color.  I guess that meant black sheep.  

I haven't looked any further than this to see if there is a symbolic reason
to the color of the lamb's wool.  There are some things in the history of
Christianity that has fallen to the wayside and are hard to research.

Clarissa Cosgrove


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: djheydt at kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
Subject: Re: Monk's habit for new persona
Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd.
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2006 03:55:16 GMT

AD <animal37 at comcast.net> wrote:
>Does anyone out there have a pattern for creating a monk's habit for a new 
>persona?

Here's one quoted by Margery Allingham in her _The Tiger in the
Smoke_ (1952).  An elderly cleric is wearing as a bathrobe

"a robe from the formula laid down in the archives of a
thirteeht-century monastery.  The directions had been easy to
follow: 'Of stout black woollen cloth take four equal pieces,
each as long as the height of the Bro. from nape to heel, and as
wide as will stretch across his shoulders from elbow to elbow.
Let the first cover his left breast and the second his right, and
the third shall cover him behind.  Then let the fourth piece be
folded into three, and of these the first shall be for his left
arm, the second for his right, and the third and last for his
head.  So shall he be covered and two ells of common rope
encompass his middle.' "

If you (or someone) is seriously interested in a monkish persona,
do get hold of a copy of the Rule of St. Benedict, which
prescribes what items a monk is allowed to have ... a pen, a
needle, a spare tunic (thick and fleecy for winter, old and worn
for summer), et cetera.

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                         Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West                               Albany, California
PRO DEO ET REGE                               djheydt at kithrup.com


From: "David Cameron Staples" <staples at cs.mu.oz.au.SPAM>
Subject: Re: Fighting Monks?
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: The University of Melbourne
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 01:43:22 GMT

in Wed, 15 Nov 2006 20:23:26 -0500, AD in hic locum scripsit:
> I would like to find out about fighting monastic orders.
> Any references I can be pointed to?

Any rational history of the
 -- Knights Templar (Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of
    Solomon),
 -- the Knights Hospitaller (also known as Knights of Rhodes, Knights of
    Malta, Cavaliers of Malta, and the Order of St. John of Jerusalem), or
 -- the Teutonic Knights (Order of the Teutonic House of Mary in Jerusalem)

should get you started. They're the big three.

For minor orders, look for the Knights of St Thomas, the Order of Our Lady
of Bethlehem, or the Knights of the Cross (with Red Star), and probably
others.
-- 
David Cameron Staples | staples AT cs DOT mu DOT oz DOT au
Melbourne University  | Computer Science | Technical Services


Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 17:18:57 +0100
From: Christophe Bachmann <Chris_CII at Compuserve.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Monk's habit for new persona

> People here are trying to talk me into fighter training; are there 
> fighting monastic orders?

At least three big :
The Sovrano Militare Ordine Ospedaliero di San Giovanni di Gerusalemme 
di Rodi e di Malta "Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of St. John of 
Jerusalem of Rhodes and of Malta" (Knights hospitallers)

The Ordo domus Sanctæ Mariæ Theutonicorum Ierosolimitanorum, "Order of 
the Teutonic House of Mary in Jerusalem" (Teutonic Knights)

The Pauperes commilitones Christi Templique Solomonici, "Poor 
Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon" (Knights Templar)

Of these the SMOM is a Benedictine order and is still widely represented.
-- 
Greetings, Salutations,
Guiraud Belissen, Château du Ciel, Drachenwald,
Chris CII, Rennes, France

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	monks-msg	Page 33 of 33