indulgences-msg - 4/4/04 Use of "indulgences" by the Church in period. NOTE: See also the files: religion-msg, crusades-msg, heretics-msg, icons-msg, monks-msg, nuns-msg, relics-msg, saints-msg, rosaries-msg, popes-msg, fasts-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: ALBAN at delphi.COM Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: indulgence Date: 25 Apr 1997 00:49:10 -0400 Galen wanted texts of indulgences. Medieval Sourcebook: John II: Indulgence for Fighting the Heathen, 878 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ John II to the bishops in the realm of Louis II [the Stammerer]. You have modestly expressed a desire to know whether those who have recently died in war, fighting in defence of the church of God and for the preservation of the Christian religion and of the state, or those who may in the future fall in the same cause, may obtain indulgence for their sins. We confidently reply that those who, out of love to the Christian religion, shall die in battle fighting bravely against pagans or unbelievers, shall receive eternal life. For the Lord has said through his prophet: "In whatever hour a sinner shall be converted, I will remember his sins no longer." By the intercession of St. Peter, who has the power of binding and loosing in heaven and on the earth, we absolve, as far as is permissible, all such and commend them by our prayers to the Lord. In Migne, Patrologia Latina, 126: 816 trans. Oliver J. Thatcher, and Edgar Holmes McNeal, eds., A Source Book for Medieval History, (New York: Scribners, 1905), 512 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ This text is part of the Internet Medieval Source Book. The Sourcebook is a collection of public domain and copy-permitted texts related to medieval and Byzantine history. Unless otherwise indicated the specific electronic form of the document is copyright. Permission is granted for electronic copying, distribution in print form for educational purposes and personal use. If you do reduplicate the document, indicate the source. No permission is granted for commercial use. (c)Paul Halsall Mar 1996 halsall at murray.fordham.edu - - - - - - - The Medieval sourcebook mentioned above, in case you haven't come across it, is one of the Great Wonders of the Web for history buffs. The URL, I think, is http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/ and it should contain loads and loads of stuff. (At least, I _hope_ that's the correct URL. . . ) Alban Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 14:31:48 -0400 From: Christine A Seelye-King Subject: SC - Indulgences > Although I remember one time, Caid was hosting a Board of Directors meeting in early Spring, smack in the middle of Lent of course. Why a nice J.A.P. like me was concerned about Lent, I'll never know, trying to stay authentic for Medieval Europe I suppose. What I wound up doing was having a 'saintly' calligrapher write up a pretty indulgance as a centerpiece, then served the originally scheduled menu. > Selene I did this last year, I had made a Flathonys in Lent for our Arts and Sciences Competition as the event was being held later than usual and was in Lent, when I got there and realized that I had prepared the crust with butter! I finally struck on the idea of having fra niccolo write up an indulgence for me, which forgave my sin. I placed it alongside the recipes and documentation. The judges liked it ;) Christianna Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 18:31:00 -0400 From: "Nicholas Sasso" Subject: SC - Food, Indulgences and Novens <<<<>>>>> You could even add what acts you performed in acquisition of the indulgence. A Novena is a good one. I even recommend doing one to get the experience. It consists, and did in early times, of 54 rosaries done on a strict schedule without variance. The penitent decides the schedule and then adheres to it. There are more details, but that is the bare bones of it. I am planning to embark on one with some specific goals in mind involving food allownaces and Lent. I have lots of time to get there. These can be for individuals or for groups, BTW. It is an interesting manner of experiencing that aspect of the middle ages culture personally. Many ways to 'earn' indulgences, so look for some and have fun with them. fra niccolo difrancesco Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 19:00:06 -0500 From: rcmann4 at earthlink.net Subject: Re: SC - the menu was Bidding for Feast - Winner's comments And it came to pass on 27 Mar 01, , that Jenne Heise wrote: > Aren't both egg and cheese forbidden under medieval lenten restrictions? One could sometimes get indulgences for dairy products. I believe that there's a cathedral tower in France nicknamed the "Butter Tower" because its construction was financed by the sale of indulgences to eat butter during Lent. Nola has a recipe for chard with cheese, and he notes that it is good for Lent, if you have an indulgence. Eggs are another matter, AFAIK. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain Settmour Swamp, East (NJ) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 14:31:56 -0800 From: "Laura C. Minnick" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] lent, wine, indulgences, de Nola To: Cooks within the SCA At 01:20 PM 1/20/2004, you wrote: > So my question is, could you buy indulgences to let you drink wine > during Lent? Was it even restricted, or am I thinking too modernly > about alcohol? There's a modern view that discourages wine during Lent, and as far as I can find, the Eastern Orthodox community has always disallowed wine during Lent. But I cannot find a medieval prohibition of wine in western Europe. If someone else can, I'd like to see it. On indulgences- you can't get an indulgence for something you haven't done yet- it is only for sins already committed. You must confess the sin and be forgiven- it is the punishment that you are avoiding by the indulgence. *and* it can only be done for venial sins, not mortal. What an indulgence does essentially is to reduce your punishment in purgatory- gets you 'time off for good behavior' :-) Thus endeth the lesson. :-) 'Lainie Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 17:18:20 -0800 (ST) From: Huette von Ahrens Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] lent, wine, indulgences, de Nola To: Cooks within the SCA --- "Laura C. Minnick" wrote: > On indulgences- you can't get an indulgence for > something you haven't done > yet- it is only for sins already committed. You > must confess the sin and be > forgiven- it is the punishment that yu are > avoiding by the indulgence. > *and* it can only be done for venial sins, not > mortal. What an indulgence > does essentially is to reduce your punishment > in purgatory- gets you 'time > off for good behavior' :-) > > Thus endeth the lesson. :-) >> 'Lainie Well that was the original intent. But during the Reformation, indulgences _were_ being sold for future sins, sometimes unspecified future sins, if you paid enough money. They were also selling indulgences for dead relatives, so they could escape purgatory. This whole subject was one of the things that ticked Martin Luther off and lead eventually to the Reformation. Huette Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 20:24:02 -0500 From: "Christine Seelye-King" Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] lent, wie, indulgences, de Nola To: "Cooks within the SCA" On indulgences- you can't get an indulgence for something youhaven't done yet- it is only for sins already committed. You must confess the sin and be forgiven- it is the punishment that you are avoiding by the indulgence. *and* it can only be done for venial sins, not mortal. What an indulgence does essentially s to reduce your punishment in purgatory- gets you 'time off for good behavior' :-) Thus endeth the lesson. :-) 'Lainie I made a version of Flathonys for an A&S contest once that was during Lent (might have been our Midwinter A&S), and used butter, een though it was the Lent version. In my last-minute dash to get my documentation placed and the entry set-up, I realized my error. Since fra niccolo was in the kitchen that weekend, I went to him and asked a favor. He wrote out an indulgence for me for having used the butter, and I included it with my documentation. The judges reacted favorably to it (you never know, they may not have noticed the butter in the first place, but I felt better at least having justified it to myself!) I also know someoe that sold indulgences at Pennsic many years back, and they were of the 'sin to be committed in the future' variety. I believe I still have one for an act of lust ;) Christianna not that I haven't gone there, but I never throw anything away, and who would I see about redeeming that sort of thing? From: "Laura C. Minnick" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] lent, wine, indulgences, de Nola To: Cooks within the SCA sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 21:08:10 -0500 > Well that was the original intent. But during > the Reformation, indulgences _were_ being sold > for future sins, sometimes unspecified future > sins,if you paid enough money. They were also > selling indulgences for dead relatives, so they > could escape purgatory. This whole subject was > one of the things that ticked Martin Luther off > and lead eventually to the Reformation. Not quite. It involvs some hair-splitting though (and sounds uncomfortably like a certain former president). There is a remarkably wonderful website at:http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/indulgen.htm that gives the straight skinny on indulgences. In particular, it has his to say (about 3/4 or the way down): Myth 6: A person can buy indulgences. The Council of Trent instituted severe reforms in the practice of granting indulgences, and, because of prior abuses, "in 1567 Pope Pius V canceled all grants of indulgence involving any fees or other financial transactions" (Catholic Encyclopedia). This act proved the Church's seriousness about removing abuses from indulgences. Myth 7: A person used to be able to buy indulgences. One never could "buy" indulgences. The fiancial scandal around indulgences, the scandal that gave Martin Luther an excuse for his heterodoxy, involved alms- indulgences in which the giving of alms to some charitable fund or foundation was used as the occasion to grant the indulgence. There was no outright selling of indulgences. The Catholic Encyclopedia states: "[I]t is easy to see how abuses crept in. Among the good works which might be encouraged by being made the condition of an indulgence, almsgiving would naturally hold a conspicuous place. . . It is well to observe that in these purposes there is nothing essentially evil. To give money to God or to the poor is a praiseworthy act, and, when it Is done from right motives, it will surely not go unrewarded." There is quite a bit more. suffice it to say, there were abuses. There still are, for other things. But the presence of abuses does not negate the official doctrinal stance. I'd have more interesting stuff, however the books I would be looking For are... 180 miles away. As usua. *poo* 'Lainie Edited by Mark S. Harris indulgences-msg Page 6 of 6