Lent-msg – 2/25/15

Medieval Lenten practices and restrictions. Recreating these in the Current Middle Ages.  Food restrictions.

NOTE: See also the files: religion-msg, indulgences-msg, Psaltrs-Rose-lnks, Puritans-msg, fish-feast-art, fish-msg, fasts-msg, eggs-msg, vegetarian-msg.

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                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 11:22:39 -0800
From: "Nick Sasso" <grizly at mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Speaking of Lent....
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> -----Original Message-----
> Maire, you could have got away with eating chicken soup! You
> would have needed an exemption from your local bishop, but if
> you were ill (or rich!) enough you would have been allowed it
> for medicinal purposes. Just remember that this time! ;-D
>
> Lucrezia

This is a piece of the Medieval Lent that should not be overlooked.  It is
truly amazing to read about the various many possible means of obtaining
indulgences for the person and/or household.  The humanitarian acts and
monetary donations as well as devotional activities all carried potential
for plenary or other indulgences that are quite very useful during lent.  My
vision is that the nobility did truly have to follow the cannon on Lenten
'fasting', but also had resources to mitigate the sacrifices needed.

You might find some even more fulfilling challenges seeking out ways to
obtain indulgences and performing those during your real lent this year in
order to get indulgence for food options, and get a different feel for the
medieval Lenten experience.

If they were prevalent enough for Brother Martin to stick a dagger in the
door, then they must have been pretty well utilized.  Sure, money was a huge
factor, but there were other means of obtaining them on your own behalf by
making pilgrimages, OBSERVING SAINT VENERATION AND FEAST DAYS.  You might
also look into the feast days as opportunities in the Middle Ages.  They had
LOTs of them for real reasons . . . like lent.  you may find that observance
of Saints' officially sanctioned feast days sets aside the dietary
restrictions . . . maybe not . . . depends on time and place.

The Lenten thing is a pervasive socio-economic facet of life.  I've got no
sources for anything at this point, but remember finding piles about it when
researching in High School.  Really fill out the picture.

niccolo difrancesco
(yup, them Franciscans had indulgences, but not for money)


Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 14:48:03 -0500
From: "Lonnie D. Harvel" <ldh at ece.gatech.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Speaking of Lent....
To: lonnie.harvel at ece.gatech.edu,	Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

A much more useful site... A TI article from 2003:
http://anvil.unl.edu/agnes/RecreatingLent.htm


Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 06:10:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Marcus Loidolt <mjloidolt at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Lenten stufff, chickens, fish and vegetarians...
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Middle Eastern Lent, that is Orthodox Great Fast starts NOT on March  
1st but on February 27th, the Monday before Western Ash  
Wednesday...Rome and the West counts the Sundays...the East does not...

   Also bear in mind that for the West, one might be allowed fish or  
other cold blooded animals on Fridays and so forth, not so in the  
East. According to St. John Chrysostom in the 3rd.cent. "let no food  
derived from any spined thing pass your lips on these days of the  
Great Fast..." "Keep with Joy and Feasting the Day of Resurrection,  
let every Sunday be filled with joy, music and feasting for all!"

   So that even today in the Eastern Church, both Catholic and  
Orthodox, one will find the observant faithful ABSTAINING from meat,  
but consuming dairy and egg products on Tuesdays, Thursdays and  
Saturdays, and FASTING from all animal products on Mondays,  
Wednesdays, and Fridays. While Sunday, again being the Day of  
Resurrection, is forbidden to fast and so one might enjoy non-spined/ 
invertabrates and dairy, as well as foods which might have a meat  
broth or gravy but which is less than 1% of the dish.

   Abot Johann von Metten
   medieval poultrier


Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 06:34:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Marcus Loidolt <mjloidolt at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 33, Issue 33
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Benedicte,
   Indeed, the devotional practices of alms-giving and prayer vigils  
were not and are not a way to make excuse for the mishaps in the  
fasting regimes, but were/are and intrical part of the whole Great  
Fast/Lent experience.

   There are many ways to observe Lent, the sick and the young and  
the aged are always exempt from the fasting regime, but not from the  
core message of the Great Fast, to prepare for the Resurrection by an  
increase in devotions and depth of prayer and rightousness of life.

   "The Fasting and Abstainence stops the pollution, but it is by  
prayer and good works that one cleans the house"
   St. Macrina the Great, 3rd. century Ceasarea in Cappadocia

   Johann

sca-cooks-request at ansteorra.org wrote:
   This is a piece of the Medieval Lent that should not be  
overlooked. It is
truly amazing to read about the various many possible means of obtaining
indulgences for the person and/or household. The humanitarian acts and
monetary donations as well as devotional activities all carried potential
for plenary or other indulgences that are quite very useful during lent. My
vision is that the nobility did truly have to follow the cannon on Lenten
'fasting', but also had resources to mitigate the sacrifices needed.

niccolo difrancesco
(yup, them Franciscans had indulgences, but not for money)


Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 19:38:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Marcus Loidolt <mjloidolt at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Lenten ideas for non Christians...
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Benedicte,
   Yes, the eastern rite may consume such seafood as mentioned...on  
Sundays, please note that this is not a reprieve granted for the  
weak, but rather an understanding of the nature of the Day of  
Resurrection, which every Sunday is.

   What would/could a non Christian do as a devotion for Lent? Well,  
every religion has it's own prayer and meditational cycle...enhance  
this with the point of encouraging and meditating on the concept of  
new life, redemption, change from death to life, dark to light, bad  
to good, good to better, ect...The core concept is change and our  
being prepared for it. What to do? Give alms, care for the poor,  
encourage new growth for the benefit of others, heal old wounds,  
repair damaged relationships, ect...

   Maire, a 14th century Irish woman, you'd probably be spending  
additional time at church devotions, the way of the cross was just  
gaining popularity as a substitute for the dangerous pilgrimage to  
Jerusalem. Collecting and dispersing alms to the poor and indigent of  
the area, helping those who might already be doing so. You might also  
use this time to sort seeds and decide your poultry breeding stock,  
even if you lived in town you'd have a few hens...

   Johann

   ------------------------------

Non-spined/invertebrates would include things like bivalves and crustaceans,
right? That would give the eastern-rite folks some fishy things, for sure!
I'm not actually sure if I'm going to do the Sunday-as-a-reprieve-from-fasting or not. I'd like to see if I can do the whole 40 days, since my persona is quite distinctly religious, enough so, that I don't think I'd be fudging it for anything except dire need (illness
or some such).

--Maire, who finds it odd but amusing that *she* is deeply religious and
Sue, who pays the bills, is also deeply religious, but one is Catholic, and
the other, Wiccan


Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 21:56:20 -0800
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lenten stufff, chickens, fish and
	vegetarians...
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Abot Johann von Metten wroter:
> Middle Eastern Lent, that is Orthodox Great Fast starts NOT on March
> 1st but on February 27th, the Monday before Western Ash
> Wednesday...Rome and the West counts the Sundays...the East does
> not...
>
>   Also bear in mind that for the West, one might be allowed fish or
> other cold blooded animals on Fridays and so forth, not so in the
> East. According to St. John Chrysostom in the 3rd.cent. "let no food
> derived from any spined thing pass your lips on these days of the
> Great Fast..." "Keep with Joy and Feasting the Day of Resurrection,
> let every Sunday be filled with joy, music and feasting for all!"
>
>   So that even today in the Eastern Church, both Catholic and
> Orthodox, one will find the observant faithful ABSTAINING from meat,
> but consuming dairy and egg products on Tuesdays, Thursdays and
> Saturdays, and FASTING from all animal products on Mondays,
> Wednesdays, and Fridays. While Sunday, again being the Day of
> Resurrection, is forbidden to fast and so one might enjoy non
> spined/invertabrates and dairy, as well as foods which might have a
> meat broth or gravy but which is less than 1% of the dish.

I know you are quite knowledgeable about the Eastern Orthodox Church,
and i expect what you wrote to be true in Byzantium. But in the Near
East (Egypt, Syria, etc.) there were many different Christian sects,
some of which are there to this day. Their practices "in period" were
a little different from the Eastern Church, although i don't have
lots of details. I know that fish recipes (one of which i made last
year - fish with sesame paste sauce) are included in the Lenten
recipes in The Book of the Description of Familiar Food.

The book also says that any normal recipes can be made in Lent, as
long as meat is not included.
-- 
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita


Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 09:51:33 -0500
From: "Christine Seelye-King" <kingstaste at mindspring.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Lent Approaches
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I'm working on my next Living History class feast for Thursday, and since it
is so close to Mardis Gras, I'm going to do two courses, one for Shrove
Tuesday, and one for Lent.  

In the past we've discussed variations such as eating a period but not
necessarily Lenten diet; giving up dairy, eggs and meat but not sugar,
alcohol, etc; doing just one week such as Holy Week (last week before
Easter); etc.

Since I'm the French Toast Laurel(TM), I am going to embrace the whole
pancake/waffle/French toast concept for the Shrove Tuesday course. I was
thinking Golden Balls would be a good choice.

I have a hard time believing this story isn't apocryphal, but I have  
found it in several areas and it does sound like a good activity for the  
class:

In England there are several celebrations on this day but perhaps the best
known one is the Pancake Day Race at Olney in Buckinghamshire which has been
held since 1445. The race came about when a woman cooking pancakes heard the
shriving bell summoning her to confession. She ran to church wearing her
apron and still holding her frying pan, and thus without knowing it,  
started a tradition that has lasted for over five hundred years.

According to the current rules, only women wearing a dress, no slacks or
jeans, an apron and a hat or scarf, may take part in the race. Each
contestant has a frying pan containing a hot, cooking pancake. She must toss
it three times during the race that starts at the market square at 11.55 am.
The winner is the first woman to complete the winding 375 meter course (the
record is 63 seconds set in 1967) and arrive at the church, serve her
pancake to the bellringer and be kissed by him. She also receives a prayer
book from the vicar.

Also for my class, I found this Lenten Alms Jar activity on a Christian
site, I think we may do some sort of variation on it:

Lenten Alms Jar

This alms jar performs the two-fold purpose of demonstrating to children the
importance of almsgiving and contributing money to the poor.

Directions

The whole family can enter into the spirit of saving for alms. A glass jar
is placed at the center of the table on Ash Wednesday, and all the money
each family member saves as a result of self-denial from smoking, eating
candy, going to movies or similar activities is put into it. The mother,
buying simpler and cheaper foods for Lenten meals, puts the difference into
the jar at meal time - so all can see where the cost of the dessert went!
The children spend the first weeks of Lent investigating needy causes and
charitable organizations and missions. They will have the responsibility of
determining who gets the alms-fund.

Christianna


Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 19:23:07 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lent Approaches
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Sorry to play spoiler. I looked this up and it's probably more urban
myth or folklore than period.

"The most famous, at Olney (Buckinghamshire) claims as its origin legend
that back in 1445 a woman rushed off to church on hearing the shriving
bell, still holding her frying pan. Its real age is hard to establish.
It is not mentioned in Wright and Lones, which must mean not only that
it was not held in the 1930s but that there were no references to it in
older works. What is certain is that soon after the Second World War the
vicar "revived" it..."

They point out that they made it nicely 500 years 1445-1945.... which
makes the dating even more suspect.

"pancake races" /A Dictionary of English Folklore/. Jacqueline Simpson
and Steve Roud. Oxford University Press, 2000. /Oxford Reference  
Online/.

Johnnae


Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 23:08:37 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] weird question - honey fast???
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

More from
  Google Books this evening

The Festal Year; Or, The Origin, History, Ceremonies and Meaning of the 
Sundays, Seasons, Feasts and Festivals of the Church During the Year, 
Explained for the People: Or, The Origin, History, Ceremonies and 
Meaning of the Sundays, Seasons, Feasts and Festivals of the Church 
During the Year ...
By James Luke Meagher
Published by Russell Brothers, 1883

Among the Greeks and the nations of the west of Asia,
on Septuagesima Sunday they published the rules and
regulations of Lent. From the following Monday they
use no meat, but eat what they call "White Meats," as
eggs, cheese, butter and things of that kind, while on the
Monday before Ash Wednesday, their Lent begins with
all its rigors. From that time they eat neither meat,
eggs, cheese or even fish. The only things allowed are
bread, fruits, honey, and for those who live near the sea,
shell-fish. Wine, for a long time forbidden, is drank no
more among them.

Johnnae


Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 18:48:01 -0800
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at jeffnet.org>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fasting for Lent

Liutgard said:
<<<  I'm doing the full-out medieval fast. No meat, dairy, eggs. And I'm not
planning to cheat with soy-based fake food. I'm going to see if I can
eventually work my way into the 'one meal plus collation',>>>

Huh? What do you mean by "the 'one meal plus collation'"? collation?
=============

The 'collation' is a snack or very light meal before bed. Here's what 
the Catholic Encyclopedia at New Advent says about it:

Still more material was the relaxation afforded by the introduction of 
"collation". This seems to have begun in the ninth century, when the 
Council of Aix la Chapelle 
<http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01001a.htm#councils> sanctioned the 
concession, even in monastic houses 
<http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04340c.htm>, of a draught of water or 
other beverage in the evening to quench the thirst of those who were 
exhausted by the manual labor of the day. From this small beginning a 
much larger indulgence was gradually evolved. The principle of 
/parvitas materiae/, i.e., that a small quantity of nourishment which 
was not taken directly as a meal did not break the fast 
<http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05789c.htm>, was adopted by St. 
Thomas Aquinas <http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14663b.htm> and other 
theologians <http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14580a.htm>, and in the 
course of centuries a recognized quantity of solid food, which 
according to received authorities must not exceed eight ounces, has 
come to be permitted after the midday repast. As this evening drink, 
when first tolerated in the ninth-century monasteries 
<http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04340c.htm>, was taken at the hour at 
which the "Collationes" (Conferences) of Abbot Cassian 
<http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03404a.htm> were being read aloud to 
the brethren, this slight indulgence came to be known as a 
"collation", and the name has continued since. 

Liutgard


Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:14:12 -0500 (EST)
From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lenten Observations was Officially serving
	modern	food at SCA...

<<< In a message dated 1/31/2013 6:59:01 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,  
lcm at jeffnet.org writes:
In the  8th c the rules were much more stringent, and I've not been able 
to find  the beginning point of relaxation/allowances/indulgences. Not to 
say they  aren't there later, just that I am still looking. >>>

They are in fact ungodly complicated. Birds for a while were permitted,  
since they were created on the same day as fish. Under Charlemagne, monks  
were allowed to have pork fat since oil was difficult to get in some  regions, 
but dairy became forbidden. Etc.

Le Grand d'Aussy wrote several long sections on this in his history of  
French food, which I've translated as "Catholic Fasting in France from the  
Franks to the Eighteenth Century".

Jim  Chevallier


Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 12:47:29 -0800
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at jeffnet.org>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lenten Observations was Officially serving
	modern food at SCA...

On 1/31/2013 7:14 AM, JIMCHEVAL at aol.com wrote:
<<< They are in fact ungodly complicated. Birds for a while were permitted,
since they were created on the same day as fish. Under Charlemagne, monks
were allowed to have pork fat since oil was difficult to get in some  regions,
but dairy became forbidden. Etc.

Le Grand d'Aussy wrote several long sections on this in his history of
French food, which I've translated as "Catholic Fasting in France from the
Franks to the Eighteenth Century".

Jim  Chevallier >>>

Do you have documentation for the allowance of pork fat and of birds? 
The pork fat I have not seen but it is plausible, though I've never seen 
it show up in any of the medieval Lenten recipes; and Socrates in the 
5th c (not the guy who drank hemlock) allowed birds, but he is and 
outlier- everyone else, from Augustine down, is quite explicit in 
banning the flesh of birds.

And I'm afraid that 18th c practices are not relevant here.

Liutgard


Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 00:05:10 -0500 (EST)
From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lenten Observations was Officially serving
	modern	food at SCA...

Le Grand's work amply documents the use of birds, the allowance of pork  
fat, etc. (he says somewhere that he is as much a compiler as a writer). 
Gregory  de Tours (6th century) was served a boiled fowl (with chickpeas) to 
accommodate  his abstinent diet.

"It was comforting enough for the Monks of these  former times to mortify 
themselves, in eating all these dainty birds, domestic  or other. Nonetheless 
the Church in the end found that such food was a sensual  indulgence ill 
suited to people who, by their oath, had devoted themselves to an  austere 
life. In 817, the Council of Aix la Chapelle forbid it them except four  days 
at Easter and four days at Christmas; yet they allowed those who, as a  
penance, wanted even then to abstain from it, to do as they  pleased....

....the Canon of the Council of Aix la Chapelle was only a  rule of reform, 
set exclusively for the Regular Canons. It did not change how  most people 
thought about birds. They continued to regard them as  fish..."

"In 817, when the Council of Aix la Chapelle forbade Regular  Canons the 
use of poultry, as I have noted above, it allowed them that of fat,  to 
indemnify them for this deprivation; nonetheless it excepted from its  permission every Friday of the year, the octave of Christmas, and all of Lent;  ut Fratres aliquid pinguedinis habeant; excepto sext? feri?, etc. [?that the  
Brethren have some fat; except on the sixth day, etc.?]"

Here is how he sums up the situation as he saw it from his Old  Regime 
perspective:

"If it was possible to restore to Life for an instant  someone who no 
longer lives, it would be a Spectacle quite worthy of a  Philosopher's eyes to 
seat at the same table a Monk of the VIIIth century, a  Monk of the XIVth, and 
one of ours and to serve all three what, in their  different times, and 
according to the regime of their same Rule, constituted and  constitutes their 
fasting food. One would see the last think to keep a severe  abstinence in 
eating eggs, butter and milk-meat; the second regard these  substances as 
meat and abstain from them with horror; the first to the contrary  would join 
to them without scruple a fowl, a partridge, vegetables or greens  seasoned 
with fat or bacon. What a horrible scandal they would cause each other!  How 
they would mutually condemn each other to excommunication. Alas! Let us  
condemn no one. The history of a people's customs is only, strictly speaking,  
the history of its contradictions. Who knows if our own, one day, will not 
be  criticized by future centuries; if our nephews, when they read that we 
did not  dare to eat a duck on a fast day, while we ate a scoter duck and a 
water hen,  will not be as shocked as we are today when we see that our 
Ancestors abstained,  on the same days, from beef and pork, and yet fed themselves with vegetables  prepared with fat and bacon."

His work also includes other surprises, such as the fact that in the same  
period Saturday was made a fast day (despite previous objections - which I 
don't  believe he mentions - that this was "Judaizing"). Few Catholics today 
I think  know that it still is: "the Roman Pontiffs have constantly refused 
to abrogate  the law of abstaining on Saturday."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01067a.htm

So yes, birds (and eggs) were eaten for a long time by people avoiding meat 
and yes a Church council authorized eating fat. In the medieval era.

Jim Chevallier


Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 16:54:00 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sundays in Lent

<<< I've been studying feast menus from around the time of Henry V, and
have a question about them. Both Henry V and his bride Catherine of
Valois were apparently crowned in Lent, and if I have the dates right
(this depends on whether my sources agree on how to handle
Julian-Gregorian conversion), they were both crowned on Sundays.

My question is this: Both feasts were almost entirely of fish, with
one or two dishes of flesh. Does this mean that these Sundays were
fish days, and flesh was included by dispensation, or did most of each
menu amount to a voluntary fast?
-- 
Henry/Alex >>>

Answer may be this--
"The answer is that all of those 46 days are within Lent, yet not all of them are of Lent, in the sense that they are supposed to be days of fasting and penance. In the past, Christians observed Lent by imitating Christ's 40 days in the desert. As He fasted for 40 days, so did they. (See "Reader Question: Observing Lent Before Vatican II.") Today, the Church only requires Western Catholics to fast on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.
From the very earliest days, the Church has declared that Sunday, the day of Christ's Resurrection, is always a feast day, and therefore fasting is forbidden. Since there are six Sundays within Lent, we have to subtract them from the days of fasting. Forty-six minus six is forty.

That's why, in the West, Lent starts on Ash Wednesday--to allow a full 40 days of fasting before Easter Sunday."

http://catholicism.about.com/b/2008/02/29/reader-question-should-we-fast-on-sundays.htm

Within Lent, not all days were fast days.  Sundays are feast days in all Catholic churches, so the forty day fast was broken with a respite each Sunday (Cowie and Gummer ).  In the early church Saturday was excluded also, so there were fewer fast days in Lent.  Eastern Orthodox Christians maintained the pattern of excluding Saturday and Sunday, except for Holy Saturday, so they had  36 not 40 fast days (Cowie and Gummer ) (Henisch  p.31-32). http://keeleranderson.net/Hello/Lent/RecreatingLent.htm 

Johnnae


Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2013 16:10:25 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sundays in Lent

During the Middle Ages, the Western Church followed the Roman practice of 
observing forty weekdays of fasting (one meal a day generally taken after 
sundown, although this was not a hard and fast rule) broken by Sundays. 
Even on Sundays meat and milk products were prohibited.  So the coronation 
meals likely represent normal Sunday fare with dispensation for the meat

Bear


Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2013 03:08:45 -0700
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at jeffnet.org>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sundays in Lent

As I've noted several times over the past couple of years, Lent was not 
a fixed thing- it varied a great deal, mostly depending on where you 
were, when you were, who your local bishop was and how hard-assed he 
was, if you were a cleric, etc etc etc. *In general* things progressed 
from very strict to somewhat more lax, until late in the middle ages you 
could basically buy your way out of a great deal of Lenten observances.

The degree of Sunday observance varied a great deal, it would appear. 
Things were quite strict in the early church and early middle ages. Lent 
might be much longer than the familiar 40 days, and the foodstuffs 
allowed were very narrow, any day of the week. In fact, there were even 
a 'dry fast', which had not only rather spartan food offerings, but also 
was to include *no water*, and restriction on watery foods. (Appears to 
have been a short-lived practice, thank God.) The general rule set in 
the 5th c was basic- no meat, no eggs, no dairy. There is some 
contention as to the nature of a relaxation of the rules for Sunday 
(sometimes including Saturdays and Saints' days). The meals could be 
fancier, more elaborate, and also with bigger portions. (Lenten portions 
would put an anorexic to shame.) In the 14th and 15th centuries there 
seems to have been eggs and dairy allowed on Sunday; meat is still iffy. 
*However*, I've been studying the observances of Lent for several years 
now, as some of you know, and I as of yet have not been able to find any 
specific statutory relaxation or decretal/ordinance of the rules for 
Sundays. Nothing. So I can't say for sure when- or indeed even *if* this 
happened. This is the source of no small frustration, because as an 8th 
c person, things are pretty strict.

During Lent I observe the full fast, though I allow myself three meals 
on Sunday as opposed to the two that was common practice, and I keep to 
it also on Saints' days. This is a royal pain in the neck, and a great 
challenge. It is also an interesting experience in that I get a taste- 
even just six weeks- of religious observance and life in my time period. 
This last spring though I had to drop out two weeks early, as I was ill. 
The infirm, very young, or very old were allowed exceptions, and I took 
it. I might be a crazy medievalist, but I'm not stupid.

Liutgard


Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2013 10:35:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sundays in Lent

lcm at jeffnet.org  writes:
<<< The general rule set in 
the 5th c was basic- no meat, no eggs, no  dairy. There is some 
contention as to the nature of a relaxation of the  rules for Sunday 
(sometimes including Saturdays and Saints' days). >>>

As I've previously mentioned, in France the situation was more nuanced.  
People ate birds for a long time, since they were created on the same day as  
fish in the Bible. Charlemagne found it perfectly normal to eat cheese on a 
fast  day.

In response to Greek critiques of French fasting, Hincmar wrote in  867 
(when French observance was already more strict): ?They try to fault us  
because we do not abstain from eating meat eight weeks before Easter or cheese  
and eggs seven weeks before, as they do.?

Le Grand d'Aussy:

"Eudes advances, to excuse us, that Christian abstinence is a custom  which 
varies according to the place and church. "In Italy, he says, one abstains, for three days of the week, from all food cooked with fire because  this country abounds in excellent fruit of every sort. In regions which do not have available their excellent fruits, all foods are cooked by fire. In Germany, one cannot do without eggs, milk, butter and cheese; although some people deprive themselves of these voluntarily. Finally, there are people who, even on  Friday and Holy Thursday, eat eggs and dairy as usual."

In regard to eggs, it is not surprising that people ate them without  
scruple. Opinion having established that fowl were meager [that is, not meat],  
of the same nature as fish, it was considered as a result that the egg too 
laid by this fowl was meager. The certificate of Charles the Bald [823 - 
877], in favor of the St. Denis Abbey, allows this Monastery, among other 
things, eleven  hundred eggs, annually, on the three great feast-days of the y
ear; and we know  that the Benedictine Order always abstains from meat. " "

The principle on Sundays seemed to be not so much a relaxation as the idea 
that it should be a day for rejoicing because it was the Lord's Day.

Le Grand d'Aussy:
"Today, we do not fast on Sundays or Lent, out of respect for this day 
which we regard particularly as a day of rejoicing. Then not only did one not 
fast on Sundays, but what is more one ate meat. A life of St. Sor [?], 
printed by F. Labbe in his Biblioth?que, proves that in the tenth  c. this 
custom continued; since the Saint, on this day, ate stag with his own people."

Jim Chevallier

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	Lent-msg	Page 12 of 12