Islam-alcohol-msg - 3/3/13 Arabic and Islamic drinking of alcohol in period. NOTE: See also these files: Islam-msg, bev-distilled-msg, Clarea-d-Agua-art, wine-msg, Non-Alco-Drks-art, jalabs-msg, coffee-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 18:21:56 -0700 From: lilinah at earthlink.net To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] mead Kiri wrote: <<< However, there was usage of alcohol in Muslim societies...to be honest, I have no details, but one of my apprentices has found a number of references and, IIRC, recipes. It appears that they made beer and, I believe, wine. Much of the beer was exported to other countries. She is currently working on a CA about alcohol production in Islamic cultures. >>> Alcohol WAS made in Muslim countries... legally by Christians and Jews, who were also the only people to sell it legally, generally speaking. In areas to the East, for example, in what is now Iraq, Armenians - who were Christians - were well known for making wine. And alcohol WAS consumed... by Christians and Jews, and by SOME Muslims, especially the nobility and upper classes. But that is not evidence that Muslims produced the wine nor that wine was commonly consumed by all classes of Muslims throughout Dar al-Islam. The Persian nobility is well documented to have drunk wine. Visiting Europeans were often shocked to discover that their Muslim hosts were drinking UNWATERED wine, when the custom in Europe was to mix it, often half and half, with water. And i have read that at least some Janissaries were infamous for frequently drinking to point of drunkenness. But that is not sufficient to assume that a medicinal mixture of honey water and pellitory root infusion was fermented (i suspect that with pellitory root it just would not taste too good...) Aelina wrote: <<< I know they also distilled as well. Many of those references are based on cosmetics and perfumes. >>> Yes, they distilled things... like rose water and orange flower water. Again, i have seen nothing to suggest they were distilling hard liquor, for example, making brandy out of wine. Some guy in the SCA, whose name i have forgotten wrote an article that was published on his website and, i think, in TI that jumped to the conclusion that liquids from Arabic recipes made with honey were forms of mead, especially if they sat for a day or two before use. As a brewer/vintner HE wanted that to be so, but i have read those recipes and there is nothing to suggest they went through fermentation. And i had a boyfriend who regularly made mead and even in hot weather it took longer than 24 hours to have a highly alcoholic beverage. -- Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM] the persona formerly known as Anahita Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 08:39:33 -0500 From: "Jim and Andi Houston" To: , "'Cooks within the SCA'" Subject: [Sca-cooks] Alcohol in Islamic countries Eastern Muslims were the most liberal, wine drinking was socially accepted in many circles among Persian and Indian Muslims. If you read the early 16th century Baburnama, the autobiography of the first of the Mughal Dynasty, he goes into great detail about his drinking parties and where one can find the best wine in Central Asia. Madhavi Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 17:52:49 +0000 (GMT) From: galefridus at optimum.net To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Alcohol in Islamic countries Annals of the Caliphs' Kitchens (10th Century Islamic) includes dozens of recipes for wines and meads. I even found mention of what to do to remedy hangovers (drink cold water first thing in the morning -- some things never change!) -- Galefridus Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 13:20:03 -0500 From: Woodrow Hill To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Alcohol in Islamic countries On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 12:52,   wrote: <<< Annals of the Caliphs' Kitchens (10th Century Islamic) includes dozens of recipes for wines and meads. I even found mention of what to do to remedy hangovers (drink cold water first thing in the morning -- some things never change!) >>> There is a significant amount of support for the drinking of wine in many period Arabic cultures. For example: the two primary works I use for period Ottoman poetry writing (OTTOMAN LYRIC POETRY and POETRY'S VOICE, SOCIETY'S SONG) both detail the symbolic use of wine in these writings; one also backed by period ref. such as the (in)famous Sultan Selim II, known as "the Sot" due to his drinking habits. Indeed, my "period hafla" concept (called a majlis in-period) includes wine, since it's clearly part of the party according to my sources. All this to say: Islam, and the cultures that derive from that religion, are as rich and complex as the ones derived from Christian sources. There was in period, as well as today, a lively debate about the permissibility of drinking alcohol based upon religions sources. And just like in Europe, people violated religious rules time and again. It's a myth that "no one in Islam drank alcohol", and it's best that folks put it to rest, in favor of a more nuanced and complex understanding of the role of "the grape" in the cultures in question. <<< -- Galefridus >>> ----asim Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 11:35:38 -0800 From: David Friedman To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Alcohol in Islamic countries Al-Tanukhi, who was a judge in 10th century Baghdad, mentions various anecdotes about wine drinking, including one that features a barge loaded with wine en route to the palace of the Caliph. I think it's pretty clear that upper class middle eastern Muslims drunk wine, just as catholics engaged in non-marital sex--in both cases sinful but accepted. <<< Annals of the Caliphs' Kitchens (10th Century Islamic) includes dozens of recipes for wines and meads. I even found mention of what to do to remedy hangovers (drink cold water first thing in the morning -- some things never change!) -- Galefridus >>> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 11:39:26 -0800 From: David Friedman To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Alcohol in Islamic countries <<< There was in period, as well as today, a lively debate about the permissibility of drinking alcohol based upon religions sources. And just like in Europe, people violated religious rules time and again. >>> The second is clearly true. My impression on the first is that the disagreement among the schools of Sunni law was over just what range of drinks was forbidden. At one extreme you had the equivalent of the Delaney Amendment--you were forbidden to drink any quantity, however small, of anything that in sufficiently large quantities was intoxicating. At the other end you had the view that the drinking of wine from grapes was forbidden, and that it was forbidden to get thoroughly drunk on other things but not to drink them. "So drunk as not to know the earth from the sky or a man from a woman." I don't know what the range of opinions among the Shia was. -- David/Cariadoc www.daviddfriedman.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 18:18:15 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Christiane To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Alcohol in Islamic countries Madhavi observed that Persian and Indian Muslims were very liberal about wine drinking, and Cariadoc mentioned drinking anecdotes from Al-Tanukhi, the judge in 10th century Baghdad. The thing about drinking in the countries that had been the old Persian Empire, is that ritualized group drinking and drinking as a "sign" of royalty pre-dated the Muslims - images from Babylonia and Mesopotamia are remarkably similar to images in Sassanian platters, of kings sitting drinking surrounded by dancing girls and musicians and courtiers. Check out, "Medieval Islamic Symbolism and the Paintings in the Cefalu Cathedral," by Miriam Gelfer-Jorgensen, which has a rich array of photos of objects from the region. Seeing them all together, you're struck by the consistency of the portrayals, from ancient to early medieval. Specifically, in this book, check out the chapter, "The Interpretation of the Goblet Motif in the Pre-Islamic Oriental." With thousands of years of drinking as a sign of the gods' favor and kingship, it's no wonder why that even with the strictures of Islam against drinking, the tradition of the grape would not quite be suppressed in this region. Adelisa de Salernum Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 22:43:54 -0500 From: Sam Wallace To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Alcohol in Islamic countries <<< Eastern Muslims were the most liberal, wine drinking was socially accepted in many circles among Persian and Indian Muslims. If you read the early 16th century Baburnama, the autobiography of the first of the Mughal Dynasty, he goes into great detail about his drinking parties and where one can find the best wine in Central Asia. Madhavi >>> For those who might want to read this themselves, here are a few links: - The Walters Museum manuscript (W.596) http://art.thewalters.org/pdf/W596.pdf - Google Books: Memoires of Zehir-Ed-Din Muhammed Baber http://books.google.com/books?id=9ztbAAAAQAAJ - Online version of Baburnama: Memoirs of Babur http://www.farlang.com/diamonds/beveridge-baburnama/page_001 Guillaume Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 18:57:12 -0400 From: "Jim and Andi Houston" To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] (no subject) My understanding is that drinking alcohol (especially wine) was part of the Sunni/Shia cultural divide, and the Sufis were somewhat outside of this. The Persians, for instance, produced and exported large amounts of wine during the latter parts of our period. I've read some 16th century Central Asian autobiographies and "wine parties" were commonplace and acceptable behavior by everyone except the imams & holy men. Madhavi Edited by Mark S. Harris Islam-alcohol-msg 5 of 5