vanilla-msg – 9/22/14

Use of the vanilla bean in late-period Europe.

NOTE: See also these files: chocolate-msg, fd-Spain-msg, Spain-msg, herbs-msg,  spices-msg, merch-spices-msg, sugar-msg, cinnamon-msg, p-herbals-msg.

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This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I  have done  a limited amount  of  editing. Messages having to do  with separate topics  were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the  message IDs  were removed to save space and remove clutter.

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Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 20:46:09 -0500
From: Ian Gourdon <agincort  at raex.com>
Subject: SC - vanilla

I've been trying to find commentary on vanilla for my lady's cordial entry.
Doubtless you all know about vanilla in period, but I don't. It doesn't
appear in the commentaries of Medieval spices I've seen. Apparently with
reason. Is there anything in the Spanish recipes, etc?
These tertiary sources may not stand up to our more rigorous source standards,
but I found it interesting. Requesting correction. Ian Gourdon

vanilla (v-nl) 
  1.Any of various tropical American vines of the genus Vanilla in the
orchid family, especially V. planifolia, cultivated for its long narrow seedpods from which a flavoring agent is obtained. 
"Vanilla \Va*nil"la\, n. [NL., fr. Sp. vainilla, dim. of Sp. vaina a sheath, a pod, L. vagina; because its grains, or seeds, are contained in little pods.] 1. (Bot.) A genus of climbing orchidaceous plants, natives of tropical America. 

 2. The long podlike capsules of Vanilla planifolia, and V. claviculata,
remarkable for their delicate and agreeable odor, for the volatile, odoriferous oil extracted from them; also, the flavoring extract made from the capsules, extensively used in confectionery, perfumery, etc. 
 Note: As a medicine, vanilla is supposed to possess powers analogous to
valerian, while, at the same time, it is far more grateful." -online dictionary
.................... 
"When the Spanish conquistadores led by Hernan Cortes were in Mexico in 1520, one of their officers, Bernal Diaz, observed that the emperor Montezuma was
drinking chocolatl, a beverage consisting of powdered cocoa beans and ground
corn, flavoured with tlilxochitl (ground black vanilla pods) and honey. 
For more than three centuries after this, Mexico was the leading vanilla-producing country in the world despite attempts to plant the vines elsewhere." 
- - http://wwwchem.uwimona.edu.jm:1104/lectures/vanilla.html 
by Dr. Robert J. Lancashire, The Department of Chemistry, University of
the West Indies, Mona Campus, Kingston 7, Jamaica. - Feb 1995  
.....................
"Its use by the Aztecs was recorded by the Spanish conquistadors. Correll (1953) states the "Bernal Diaz, a Spanish officer under Hernando Cortes, was perhaps
the first white man to take note of this spice when he observed Montezuma, the intrepid Aztec emperor, drink "chocolatl", a beverage prepared from pulverized seeds of the cacao tree, flavored with ground vanilla beans which the Aztecs call "tlilxochitl", derived from "tlilli", meaning "black", and from "xochitl" interpreted here as meaning "pod". Vanilla beans were considered to be among the rarer tributes paid to the Aztec emperor by his subject tribes. Legend has it that Cortes in 1520 was given chocolate flavored with vanilla by Montezuma, served in golden goblets. 

Bernardino de Sehagun, a Franciscan friar, who arrived in Mexico in 1529, wrote about vanilla, saying the the Aztecs used it in cocoa, sweetened with honey,
and sold the spice in their markets, but his work, originally written in the Aztec language, was not published until 1829-1830. The Spaniards early imported vanilla beans into Spain, where factories were established in the second half of the sixteenth century for the manufacture of chocolate flavored with vanilla. 

Francicso Hernandez, who was sent to Mexico by Philip II of Spain, gave an illustrated account of vanilla in his Rerum Medicarum Novae Hispaniae Thesaurus,
which was first published in Rome in 1651. In it he translated "tlilxochitl" as
"black flowers', a fallacy which Correll (1953) say remained in the literature for many years, although the flowers are greenish yellow in color. 

Hugh Morgan, apothecary to Queen Elizabeth I of England, suggested vanilla as a 
flavoring in its own right. He gave some cured beans to the Flemish botanist, Carolas Clusius, in 1602 and the latter describes them in his Exoticorum Libri
Decem of 1605. William Dampier observed vanilla growing in 1626 in the Bay of Campeche in southern Mexico and in 1681 at Boco-Toro in Costa Rica. Formerly, vanilla was used in medicine, as a nerve stimulant, and along with other spices had a reputation as an aphrodisiac. It was also used for scenting tobacco." 
- - Shank's Extracts 1-800-346-3135
shanks  at shanks.com -- http://www.shanks.com/aboutvanilla/history.htm
- -- 
Ian Gourdon of Glen Awe, OP
Known as a forester of the Greenwood, Midrealm
 http://web.raex.com/~agincort


Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 21:49:56 -0500
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper  at idt.net>
Subject: Re: SC - vanilla

And it came to pass on 18 Feb 00,, that Ian Gourdon wrote:
> I've been trying to find commentary on vanilla for my lady's cordial entry.
> Doubtless you all know about vanilla in period, but I don't. It doesn't
> appear in the commentaries of Medieval spices I've seen. Apparently with
> reason. Is there anything in the Spanish recipes, etc? These tertiary
> sources may not stand up to our more rigorous source standards, but I
> found it interesting. Requesting correction. Ian Gourdon

I have not seen any mention of it in the 16th and early 17th century 
Spanish cookbooks that I have perused.

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)


From: "Jeanne Papanastasiou" <jeanne  at atasteofcreole.com>
To: "Ansteorra Cooks" <sca-cooks  at ansteorra.org>
Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 10:19:15 -0400
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Vanilla beans, vanilla extracts, gift baskets, body care, recipes, vanilla awar

  http://www.vanilla.com/index.shtml

Soffya Appollonia Tudja


From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker  at worldnet.att.net>
To: <sca-cooks  at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] vanilla beans
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 06:26:11 -0600

>Vanilla is New World. I can't think of any late period recipes using
>them, but I don't know the late period sources that well.
>
>Elizabeth/Betty Cook

According to my notes, the first recorded appearance of vanilla in English
is in Indian Nectar (1662), where it is described as a flavoring agent for
chocolate.  A couple of sources place its arrival in Europe as 1527 with the
return of Hernando Cortez.  I have nothing suggesting vanilla was actually
used prior to 1600. If there is, it is most likely in Spanish sources.

Bear


Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:57:12 -0500
From: johnna holloway <johnna  at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: sca-cooks  at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] vanilla beans

"Then, in 1602, Hugh Morgan, apothecary to
 Queen Elizabeth I, suggested that vanilla
 could be used as a flavoring all by itself,
 and the versatility of the exotic bean was finally uncovered."
http://www.nielsenmassey.com/historyofvanilla.htm
[note the source of the story]
This story is repeated in the Florilegium, but cites
another flavouring company.

Oddly, enough Andrew Dalby repeats "It was Hugh Morgan,
apothecary to Oueen Elizabeth I, who is said to have
suggested the use of vanilla as a flavouring for other foods."
Dangerous Tastes, p.148.

If the Hugh Morgan connection is true, then the uses seem
to have been medicinal. It may well occur in medicinal recipes
in the 17th century, but there don't seem to be other recorded
instances or recipes in the literature to support the claim.

Johnnae llyn Lewis


Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 11:11:02 -0500
From: johnna holloway <johnna  at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: sca-cooks  at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] vanilla beans

One more source on vanilla---
There are recipes for chocolate that
use vanilla published in France by M
St. Disdier in 1692.
See Sophie and Michael Coe's The True
History of Chocolate. pp.162-164.

She mentions Hernandez's account of an
Aztec recipe for chocolate that inflames the
venereal appetites on pages 90-94. It also
includes mention of vanilla.

Johnnae llyn Lewis


Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 09:50:50 -0400
From: johnna holloway <johnna  at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: sca-cooks  at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Vanilla was Castellan Feast, 2003

Jadwiga's right in that Vanilla did not come into
common usuage until the 19th century, but vanilla was
known and used in the production of chocolate in the
17th century.

I did a long summary of research on vanilla back in January
of this year in answer to a thread and queries on MK-Cooks.
I sent the long version into Stefan for the Florilegium and maybe
one of these days the material will appear in that under vanilla.

 From that posting---

Vanilla

OED lists this as the earliest quotation
1662 H. Stubbe  Indian Nectar ii. 11
They added..the Vaynillas [to the chocolate] for the like ends, and to
strengthen the brain.

[No one on this list mentioned some of the more unusual aspects about the naming   of the plant. SCA-Cooks would have leaped upon and spent days on the fact that   the name is connected to the word vaina (:-L. va gi na  vagina) meaning 'sheath'
.    Mark Morton's book Cupboard Love goes into the background of the word for those interested.]

Anyway the date of 1662 would go along with C. Anne Wilson's comment in Food and Drink in Britain that it came into use in England with the preparation of chocolate as a drink. Through EEBO I looked at the 1662 copy of Henry Stubbe's The Indian nectar, or, A discourse concerning chocolata the nature of cacao-nut and the other ingredients of that composition is examined and stated according   to the judgment and experience of the Indian and Spanish writers. It's the Harvard copy of 180 plus pages that is available online.

This does have recipes in English for making the drink using vanilla as an ingredient. Stubbe cites several recipes including one recipe as that being used by Antonio Colmenero de Ledefina which includes vanilla. One thing that is valuable about this discourse is that he describes and discusses all the ingredients that go into making the drink.

On page 52 he writes:
"The next ingredient of Chocolate is Tlilxochitl (or as some write   it Tlixochil) or, as the Spaniards call it, banillas olorofas, or Vaynillas=85. their smell is admirable, they which have parallei'd it with Ambergrise, Musk,   or Balsame, failed in their Character for it hath a peculiar mildness, and delicacy in it, not to be found in those other." Stubbe goes on to fully describe the plant, the pod, and the seeds saying that "Whosoever shall try these Vaynillas by the strength and pentratingness of their smell, and perhaps by the vigour of their effects, performing what nothing of European, or East-Indy growth, of a less Degree in heat and dryness, then the third, doth; will rank them with those of that sort but here who shall consult his   Senses, and observe the mild delicacy in these American Products, and particularly   in the Vaynillas, which is inconsistent with so much heat, and dryness and shall   consider, that his tongue feels nothing parallel to what happens upon the tasting of a grain of Chili, or red Pepper (which yet is placed as hot in the third degree) he will by many degrees separate and distinguish the former from the latter=85." He concludes, "for to use Cloves instead of Vainillas is a ridiculous mockage, and hurtful to several complexions in Chocolota."

Another earlier work that mentions vanilla is A Curious Treatise of the Nature   and Quality of Chocolate. It is given as being written in Spanish by Antonio   Colmenero and put into English by Diego de Vades-forte. It was published in English in 1640. It too lists recipes for the drink. Listed among the other ingredients that go into "this confection" is "another which they call Vinecaxtli, which in the Spanish they call Orejuelas, which sweet smelling Flowers, Aromaticall and hot." Page 14

This answers the question: can we find recipes in English from before 1650? Well, yes we can. I would also point out that by 1683 recipes featuring chocolate with vanilla are being recorded in household manuscripts. See Brears' The Gentlewoman's Kitchen for examples. Do not be fooled however by the infamous "chocolate cr=E8me" featured in Fettiplace. It does not date from 1604.

One really weird place that vanilla can be found in a 17th century recipe for   something other than a drink involving chocolate is in a book of ices. Today   it seems second nature to think about vanilla ice cream, but in the 17th century?  Actually yes!!! Elizabeth David notes that she owned a copy of an Italian work (undated but definitely 17th century) entitled Brieve e Nuova Modo da Farsi ogni sorte di Sorbette con facilta. In Harvest of the Cold Months, David writes on page 150: "An unexpected one, given the period, is vanilla, which evidently came early to Naples via its Spanish overloads and their colony of Peru. A vanilla ice in those days was not custard based but simply an infusion of 1 large bean pulverized with sugar and immersed in 10 goblets of boiling water."

Should anyone want to pursue the topic, there are some books that might be sought out.
   Une orchid=E9e qu'on appela Vanille : description v=E9ritable de l'histoire,   des tribulations & vertus d'une plante aromatique, 1535-1998 by Nicolas Bouvier.1998.   This is a French publication of  119 pages. Gen=E8ve : Editions Metropolis, ISBN: 2883400601 . 

14 libraries in the world are listed as owning it as according to OCLC. With only the University of Chicago having it in the Midrealm.

Even rarer are these books-
Vanilla; its botany, history, cultivation and economic import
  by Donovan S. Correll.  New York : Society for Economic Botany, 1953
And
The Culture History of Mexican Vanilla by Henry Bruman which was
published in 1948.

Johnnae llyn Lewis    Johnna Holloway


From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker  at worldnet.att.net>
To: <sca-cooks  at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OOP: Vanilla Extract
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 21:42:12 -0500

First reference, Bernardino de Sahagun, General History of the Things of New Spain (1560), wherein he reports that the Aztecs mixed vanilla (tlixochitl) with choclate.  I believe Clusius references it in his Herbal of 1602(?).

Vanilla first appears in English in the 17th Century and it's first
reference in cookery appears in Hannah Glasse's Art of Cookery (1756).

Vanilla extract seems to date from around 1875 (although it may be earlier) with the first of the vanilla substitutes.  Synthetic vanilla is first processed about 1929.

Bear


To: sca-cooks  at ansteorra.org
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 23:53:22 -0400
Subject: Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OOP: Vanilla Extract
From: Morgana Abbey <morgana.abbey  at juno.com>

I remember reading something that mentioned Elizabeth Tudor keeping a
bottle of vanilla extract (more likely vanilla steeped in some brandy)  
on her table and sprinkling it on her food.

I've tried putting a vanilla bean in a bottle of cognac.  It's quite
nice.

Morgana


Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 21:43:53 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT OOP Vanilla Extract
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Vanilla extract is produced by alcohol extraction from aged vanilla beans.
The FDA requires that pure vanilla extract be 35 per cent alcohol (with
13.35 ounces of vanilla beans per gallon of 35 per cent solution).  The FDA
also permits sugar, corn syrup, caramel, colors and stabilizers to be added
to the extract.  When these additional items appear on the label, the
extract is most likely unaged.  Fresh vanilla extract tends to be harsh
tasting and adding 20 per cent or more sugar smoothes the taste while
caramels, colors and stabilizers give the product an aged appearance.  Top
quality vanilla extract has only vanilla, alcohol and water for ingredients
and its smooth flavor and dark rich color are the result of aging the
product between one and two years.  Aging costs money.

Bear

----- Original Message -----
When did  they
start putting corn syrup in vanilla extract?  I have found such in the
Publix store brand, in the McCormick brand, and in the Nielsen-Massey brand
at the gourmet shop. The only kind that didn't have corn syrup was the Spice
Islands brand but, at $11.99 for two ounces, it's three or four times more
expensive. Was there a problem with the vanilla crop? Is home-made vanilla
extract just as good?

Isabella


Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 13:17:05 +0000
From: "Holly Stockley" <hollyvandenberg at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] OT OOP Vanilla Extract
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

A two ounce bottle seems like such a waste of time for me.  ;-)  I burn
through enough that I generally buy a couple 8 oz bottles at a time.  I'd
get the 16 oz, but I generally keep Mexican, Madacasgar, and Tahitian on
hand for variety.

There have been some price issues.  One of last years hurricanes had
potential to do a lot of damage to a crop that takes a LOONNNGGG time to
bring to market.  This was followed by Coca-cola buying up futures and a
resulting price spike.  Some of the companies have since come back down,
others not.

I've bought vanilla from all three of these suppliers:

This one is the most artisanal of the bunch, BUT the last time I bought this
extract it was about 1/2 this price - I don't think it will drop again at
this point.  Good stuff, though.

http://www.baldwinextracts.com/index.html

This is my economy source.  If you want sugarless extract, you'll get an
opportunity to specify at the end.  I've had both, and don't find the
sugarless to be particularly harsh.

http://www.saffron.com/

And this is my favorite source for Tahitian extract.  Again, options are
available for sugarless extracts, which I've usually had and don't find to
be any more harsh than their sugar versions.  I don't usually buy the
concentrated forms - because I'm more inclined to dump than to measure.

http://www.icdc.com/~vanilla/product2.htm

I recommend finding a baking friend and putting in an order together to save
on shipping.

Femke


Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 11:13:00 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT OOP Vanilla Extract
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

I buy Penzeys by mail order. Ok, it's expensive
and a major investment, but I just buy  the pint.
It keeps in the dark for an extended period of time.
http://www.penzeys.com/cgi-bin/penzeys/p-penzeysvanilla.html
has their take on the market.
They list sugar as their ingredient.

Johnnae


Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:52:03 -0800
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT OOP Vanilla Extract
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Isabella wrote:
> When did they start putting corn syrup in vanilla extract?  I have
> found such in the Publix store brand, in the McCormick brand, and in
> the Nielsen-Massey brand at the gourmet shop. The only kind that
> didn't have corn syrup was the Spice Islands brand but, at $11.99
> for two ounces, it's three or four times more expensive. Was there a
> problem with the vanilla crop? Is home-made vanilla extract just as
> good?

Wild... i've never bought vanilla with corn syrup listed on it.

My bottle of Nielsen-Massey Organic Madagascar Bourbon Pure Vanilla
Extract says:
Ingredients: 100% Organic:
Water, Organic Alcohol, Organic Vanilla Bean Extractives

But Nielsen-Massey produces a number of different vanillas, so maybe
they have corn syrup in some but not others.
-- 
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita


Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:29:31 -0500
From: "Carol Smith" <Eskesmith at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT OOP Vanilla Extract - how to
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Corn syrup is one of the permitted additives for Pure Vanilla Extract  
(CFR 31. 161 or 165, I believe) and has always been one of the  
alternatives to cane sugar used in making many flavors.  The industry  
began using it as a cost-cutting measure several years ago.
To make homemade pure vanilla extract, you will need the equivalent  
of 13.35 av oz vanilla bean/ gallon of 35-40% alcohol (70 - 80  
proof).  If you wish to add a little sugar to it, you will have to  
start with a higher alcohol content, because the sugar will bring the  
alcohol down.  Steep the chopped bean in the alcohol for a minimum of  
10 days, decant, adjust as necessary, and use.  The bean should still  
be useful to some extent for vanilla sugar, but it will probably have  
a woody taste rather than the sweet vanillin taste you expect.
Flavor will probably vary more, batch to batch, if you do it  
yourself, depending on the quality of bean available.  Bourbon beans  
are supposed to be the best, and they should be shiny and black, with  
small white crystals visible on their exteriors for highest quality.   
But drying beans naturally is labor intensive, and is rarely done any  
more.

Brekke


Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 18:51:23 -0500
From: "Carol Smith" <Eskesmith at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT OOP Vanilla Extract
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Permitted additives, per CFR 21.169.175, are, and I quote:

(1) Glycerin.
(2)  Propylene glycol.
(3) Sugar (including invert sugar).
(4) Dextrose.
(5) Corn sirup. [sic]

These are the ONLY additions permitted for Pure Vanilla Extract.   
Anything else should be called "flavor", "with color", or have some  
other modifier to indicate that it is not strictly pure vanilla  
extract.  There's a whole story on the importance of bean moisture,  
too, that goes along with this ruling.

Brekke


Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 18:15:07 EST
From: CorwynWdwd at aol.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Vanilla Extract --Thank you!
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Lady Isabella de la Gryffin writes:
>>>
How many of you have tried making your own extract? I remember two replies,
one said age it for a year or two, the other said ten days. Does that mean
that you  would get an acceptable product in the shorter amount of time, but if
you  could put it up to age, you'd get a really great one?
<<<

As a rule, and understand I've made it but I'm not an expert by any means,
the longer it sits the better it gets, but I've turned out an acceptable
product  in less then six months.

>>>
Do you  have to take the vanilla bean(s) out, or can you leave them  
in the alcohol  solution? Would it get bitter?
<<<

I leave the beans in and add a bit more alcohol after use, and shake   
well. I've never had it get detectably bitter.

>>>
Would rum, vodka, brandy, or Everclear (190 proof, 95% alcohol) cut to the
proper strength work best? I can probably find a source of lab-grade distilled
water  if I want to try the last.
<<<

Brandy works best IMO, but I tend to use brandy for most extracts,  
unless it's like a haroka, then I use vodka for the cost.

>>>
Should I  use a brown glass container, or a clear one kept in a dark
place?(Easier to  judge the concentration of the extract with a clear  
container, I should think)
<<<

I always used a clear bottle and kept it in a dark corner, you can  
do  that or use the dark bottle, the idea is light degrades it.

Corwyn


Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 14:56:51 -0200
From: "Lady Ro" <ladyro at comcast.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] RE: VAnilla Extract
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

I make my own.  12 oz of the best vodka I can afford, one (1) REAL  
Vanilla bean, slit up the middle (butterflied).

I put it in a tall, clear glass bottle, and age it 4 months.  Thereafter I
top it up at the 1/2 to 3/4 mark, and keep it in my spice cabinet.

'Swonderful.... even if I am bragging on myself.  There are a few  
things I do very well.  This is one.

Ro
Bright Hills


Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 19:17:30 -0500
From: "Carol Smith" <Eskesmith at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Vanilla Extract --Thank you, and some
	answers.
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

As for aging vanilla, the original extraction takes about 10 days at  
a slightly elevated temperature (about 105-110 degrees Fahrenheit).   
It should then be aged in charred oak casks, but is generally aged in  
stainless steel these days for proper sanitation.  The beans are  
removed after the 10-day percolation/maceration period, the alcohol  
tested, and the aging process then starts.  It's very similar to  
making good whiskey.  If you're doing the extraction at room  
temperature, I'd leave the bean in the alcoholic solution for another  
5 days, but that's just a guess.  You may prefer to use either vodka  
or the everclear cut to 35% alcohol as closest to the regular  
vanilla, but using rum or brandy will provide other sweet notes you  
won't get in regular vanilla extract.  The vanilla flavor will mellow  
out over time, even without the oak cask, just as your cordials blend  
with sitting.

Brekke


Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 19:23:39 -0500
From: "Carol Smith" <Eskesmith at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Vanilla Extract --Thank you!
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

It's Tonkin extract that has the coumarin, and coumarin's now banned  
worldwide.  It used to be an additive to vanilla extracts, before food laws.
Mexican vanilla (as sold in the United States, at least) contains  
only vanilla beans as the flavoring these days, as required by law.

Regards,
Brekke
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: lilinah at earthlink.net<mailto:lilinah at earthlink.net>
>  Daniel used to have some Mexican vanilla extract,

   Some Mexican vanilla does not contain vanilla or is vanilla
   "contaminated" with some coumarin-containing substance. Coumarin
   smells like vanilla (many natural vanilla-scented plants contain
   coumarin), but it's not good for the liver.

   Despite the fact that vanilla originated in Mexico, I just wouldn't
   trust Mexican vanilla.

   Perhaps they have improved industry oversight and i am just fear- 
mongering.
   --
   Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)


Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 17:30:06 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Vanilla [was: Sweet chocolate,	Modican
	chocolate (OOP -- maybe)]
To: "Christiane" <christianetrue at earthlink.net>,	"Cooks within the
	SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> Do you know, or does anyone know, how quickly did
> vanilla show up in recipes?
>
> Gianotta

To my knowledge, the earliest recipe reference to vanilla is in Hanna
Glasse's Art of Cookery (1756).

One of the earliest (if not the earliest) reference to the use of vanilla is
in Bernardino de Sahagun's General History of the Things of New Spain.
Carolus Clusius obtained a specimen from the English Royal apothecary in
1602.  The name "vanilla" appears to be first used by Willem Piso in 1658,
becoming widespread afterwards.  All of this suggests that vanilla was
available as a curiosity in Europe during the latter half of the 16th
Century, but general acceptance and use probably occurred about a  
century later.

Bear


Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 19:06:27 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Vanilla [was: Sweet chocolate, Modican
	chocolate (OOP -- maybe)]
To: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>,	Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

  I did a long summary of research on vanilla back in January 2003
in answer to a thread and queries on MK-Cooks.

The Hugh Morgan association is very suspect, even if it appear on the
web and is repeated in the Florilegium.

"Then, in 1602, Hugh Morgan, apothecary to
Queen Elizabeth I, suggested that vanilla
could be used as a flavoring all by itself,
and the versatility of the exotic bean was finally uncovered."

http://www.nielsenmassey.com/historyofvanilla.htm

[note the source of the story]

This story is repeated in the Florilegium, but cites
another flavouring company.

Oddly, enough Andrew Dalby repeats "It was Hugh Morgan,
apothecary to Oueen Elizabeth I, who is said to have
suggested the use of vanilla as a flavouring for other foods."

Dangerous Tastes, p.148.


If the Hugh Morgan connection is true, then the uses seem
to have been medicinal. It may well occur in medicinal recipes
in the 17th century, but there don't seem to be other recorded
instances or recipes in the literature to support the claim.

  From another posting---  Vanilla

OED lists this as the earliest quotation
1662 H. Stubbe  Indian Nectar ii. 11

They added..the Vaynillas [to the chocolate] for the like ends, and to
strengthen the brain.

[No one on this list mentioned some of the more unusual aspects about
the naming   of the plant. SCA-Cooks would have leaped upon and spent
days on the fact that the name is connected to the word vaina (:-L. va
gi na  vagina) meaning 'sheath'.

Mark Morton's book Cupboard Love goes into the background of the
word for those interested.]

Anyway the date of 1662 would go along with C. Anne Wilson's comment in
Food and Drink in Britain that it came into use in England with the
preparation of chocolate as a drink. Through EEBO I looked at the 1662
copy of Henry Stubbe's The Indian nectar, or, A discourse concerning
chocolata the nature of cacao-nut and the other ingredients of that
composition is examined and stated according   to the judgment and
experience of the Indian and Spanish writers. It's the Harvard copy of
180 plus pages that is available online.

This does have recipes in English for making the drink using vanilla as
an ingredient. Stubbe cites several recipes including one recipe as that
being used by Antonio Colmenero de Ledefina which includes vanilla. One
thing that is valuable about this discourse is that he describes and
discusses all the ingredients that go into making the drink.

On page 52 he writes:

"The next ingredient of Chocolate is Tlilxochitl (or as some write   it
Tlixochil) or, as the Spaniards call it, banillas olorofas, or
Vaynillas. their smell is admirable, they which have parallei'd it
with Ambergrise, Musk,   or Balsame, failed in their Character for it
hath a peculiar mildness, and delicacy in it, not to be found in those
other." Stubbe goes on to fully describe the plant, the pod, and the
seeds saying that "Whosoever shall try these Vaynillas by the strength
and pentratingness of their smell, and perhaps by the vigour of their
effects, performing what nothing of European, or East-Indy growth, of a
less Degree in heat and dryness, then the third, doth; will rank them
with those of that sort but here who shall consult his   Senses, and
observe the mild delicacy in these American Products, and particularly
in the Vaynillas, which is inconsistent with so much heat, and dryness
and shall   consider, that his tongue feels nothing parallel to what
happens upon the tasting of a grain of Chili, or red Pepper (which yet
is placed as hot in the third degree) he will by many degrees separate
and distinguish the former from the latter=85." He concludes, "for to
use Cloves instead of Vainillas is a ridiculous mockage, and hurtful to
several complexions in Chocolota."

Another earlier work that mentions vanilla is A Curious Treatise of the
Nature   and Quality of Chocolate. It is given as being written in
Spanish by Antonio   Colmenero and put into English by Diego de
Vades-forte. It was published in English in 1640. It too lists recipes
for the drink. Listed among the other ingredients that go into "this
confection" is "another which they call Vinecaxtli, which in the Spanish
they call Orejuelas, which sweet smelling Flowers, Aromaticall and hot."
Page 14

This answers the question: can we find recipes in English from before
1650? Well, yes we can. I would also point out that by 1683 recipes
featuring chocolate with vanilla are being recorded in household
manuscripts. See Brears' The Gentlewoman's Kitchen for examples. Do not
be fooled however by the infamous "chocolate creme" featured in
Fettiplace. It does not date from 1604.

There are recipes for chocolate that use vanilla published in France by
M St. Disdier in 1692.

See Sophie and Michael Coe's The True History of Chocolate. pp.162-164.
She mentions Hernandez's account of an

Aztec recipe for chocolate that inflames the venereal appetites on pages
90-94. It also includes mention of vanilla.

One really weird place that vanilla can be found in a 17th century
recipe for something other than a drink involving chocolate is in a
book of ices. Today   it seems second nature to think about vanilla ice
cream, but in the 17th century?  Actually yes!!! Elizabeth David notes
that she owned a copy of an Italian work (undated but definitely 17th
century) entitled Brieve e Nuova Modo da Farsi ogni sorte di Sorbette
con facilta. In Harvest of the Cold Months, David writes on page 150:
"An unexpected one, given the period, is vanilla, which evidently came
early to Naples via its Spanish overloads and their colony of Peru. A
vanilla ice in those days was not custard based but simply an infusion
of 1 large bean pulverized with sugar and immersed in 10 goblets of
boiling water."

Should anyone want to pursue the topic, there are some books that might
be sought out.

    Une orchide qu'on appela Vanille : description veritable de
l'histoire, des tribulations & vertus d'une plante aromatique,
1535-1998 by Nicolas Bouvier.1998.  This is a French publication
of  119 pages. Gen=E8ve : Editions Metropolis, ISBN: 2883400601 .

  14 libraries in the world are listed as owning it as according to  
OCLC.  With only the University of Chicago having it in the Midrealm.

Even rarer are these books-

Vanilla; its botany, history, cultivation and economic import by Donovan S. Correll.  New York : Society for Economic Botany, 1953

And

The Culture History of Mexican Vanilla by Henry Bruman which was
published in 1948.

Johnnae llyn Lewis    Johnna Holloway


Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 19:39:56 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Vanilla 2007 additional notes
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I just checked EEBO-TCP and "vanilla" only appears in
The manner of making of coffee, tea, and chocolate as it is used in most
parts of Europe, Asia, Africa, and America, with their vertues
Author: Dufour, Philippe Sylvestre, 1622-1687. London : Printed for
William Crook ..., 1685.

<http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx? 
c=eebo;cc=eebo;q1=vanilla;rgn=full%20text;view=toc;idno=A36763.0001.001>

? ...r Pimiento, half an ounce of Cloves, three lit|tle Straws or
Vanilla's de Campeche, or for want thereof, as much Annis-seed a ...
? ...Mexicans; but this Wood has nothing of affinity with our Vanilla's
which are used in making the Chocolate, the which are very pleasant to th ...
? ...Alexandria, vulgarly called pale Roses, a little Bean Cod or
Vanilla de Campeche, two drams of Cinnamon, a dozen of Almonds, and as ...

So that source really offers us nothing more than it did in 2003.

Of course if one searches in it under "Vinecaxtli" one can read that recipe as given in A curious treatise of the nature and quality of chocolate. VVritten in
Spanish by Antonio Colmenero, doctor in physicke and chirurgery. And put
into English by Don Diego de Vades-forte.
Author: Colmenero de Ledesma, Antonio. Imprinted at London : By I. Okes,
dwelling in Little St. Bartholomewes, 1640.

"There are also other ingredients, which are used in this Confection.
One called Mechasuchil; and another which they call Vinecaxtli, which in
the Spanish they call Orejuelas, which are sweet smelling Flowers,
Aromaticall and hot. And the Mechasuchil hath a Purgative quality; for
in the Indies they make a purging potion of it. In stead of this, in
Spaine they put into the Confection, powder of Roses of Alexandria, for
opening the Belly.
I have spoken of all these Ingredients, that every one may make choise
of those which please him best, or are most pro|per for his
infirmities." page 14

There are two modern books that are available:

Ecott, Tim. Vanilla. Travels in search of the Ice Cream Orchid. 2004.
Rain, Patricia. Vanilla. The Cultural History of the World's Favorite
Flavor and Fragrance. 2004

Both were published after our initial conversations on the topic.
Neither is indexed or footnoted as to sources.

Johnnae


Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 10:50:46 -0600
From: "TerryDecker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Redaction exercise

The pancakes may be Medieval, but the vanilla in them certainly is not. 
Vanilla beans enter Europe no earlier than 1519 and the Spanish began 
importing them for culinary purposes only in the latter half of the 16th 
Century.

They were very scarce and truly expensive until 1839 when the method of hand 
pollination was discovered and the cultivation of vanilla spread out of 
Mexico to other tropical areas.  The production of vanilla extract (the most 
common method of using vanilla) is also a 19th Century process.  Unless 
there is a documentable recipe dating to the 16th Century, the odds are 
vanilla is a late addition to the recipe.  I do have a recipe for a kind of 
cake where the whole bean is used, but it appears to only date from the late 
18th Century.

Anise (Pimpinella anisum) is an Eastern Mediterranean plant used since 
Antiquity, so it was probably available.  Star anise (Illicium verum) is a 
plant of Southeast Asia.  Since star anise is primarily used a less 
expensive replacement for anise and it only begins appearing in European 
recipes in the 17th Century (according to the work of Jill Norman).  Its 
entry into Europe is probably due to Ottoman control of the anise trade and 
European expansion into Asia.

Bear

-----Original Message----- 
Johnna I lived in Gotland in the Baltic Sea in Sweden one year and the
island was a part of the Hansa League ruled by the German cities. They took
to Visby, in Gotland, anise, star anise and vanilla. Gotland is the only
place in Sweden you can eat vanilla pancakes, the islands speciality,
direct from the Middle Ages.

Ana


Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 17:47:09 -0200
From: Ana Vald?s <agora158 at gmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Redaction exercise

On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 2:50 PM, TerryDecker <t.d.decker at att.net> wrote:
<<< The pancakes may be Medieval, but the vanilla in them certainly is not.
Vanilla beans enter Europe no earlier than 1519 and the Spanish began
importing them for culinary purposes only in the latter half of the 16th
Century. ...>

I asked my Swedish friends, they said Linneus tried to grow vanilla in
Sweden but he never succeded. According to them vanillan come to Gotland
through German traders and they got it from Spain, after 1502. Spain and
Austria was the same empire for several centuries and I guess the
discoveries from Columbus come at the same time to Toledo, the imperial
capital then, and to Vienna.
When we talked about the 16th century I was speaking about 1530 or 40, the
peak for Gotland.
Ana


Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 16:56:36 -0600
From: "TerryDecker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Redaction exercise

While your friends believe vanilla was used in Gotland in the 16th Century, 
the question I have is, what is the recorded evidence?

Although Columbus was able to obtain some cacao beans in 1502 on his fourth 
voyage when he captured a canoe of trade goods, they were not in significant 
quantity to make an impression on Spain.  I have yet to find any evidence 
that he encountered vanilla.

Vanilla and cacao are both Mexican products and are generally believed to 
have been introduced into Spain by Hernan Cortez after his conquest of the 
Aztecs in 1519.  While I'm certain small amounts of of both made there way 
to Spain for the use of conquistadors who had developed a taste for cocoa, 
the first record of a commercial shipment of cacao from Mexico to Spain 
occurs in 1585.  There are no records of any vanilla shipments available. 
The introduction of cocoa with its accompanying vanilla to the Spanish court 
probably occurred in 1544 when Dominican friars brought some of the native 
inhabitants of New Spain to court.

Cocoa with vanilla was known to Elizabeth's court, for in 1602 her 
physician, Hugh Morgan, suggested that vanilla might be used as a flavoring 
in it's own right rather than as an ingredient in cocoa.  He also provided 
Clusius with specimens of the vanilla bean, which Clusius formally described 
in 1605.  The fact that Clusius, arguably the greatest botanist of the 
period, suggests that vanilla was not in extensive use by the Habsburgs 
before 1576.  Clusius was the prefect of the Imperial medical gardens under 
Maximillian II, son-in-law of Charles V and Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire 
from 1564 to 1576.  Charles V (1519) aka Charles I of Spain (1516) was the 
King of Spain when cacao and vanilla were brought into Spain.  While I have 
no problem with vanilla being introduced into Gotland from Spain by German 
traders, I do question that it occurred in the 16th Century.  More likely it 
was in the 17th Century as cocoa and coffee served with vanilla came into 
wider use.

Linnaeus and his attempt to grow vanilla is immaterial to the early dating 
of vanilla in Sweden as he is 18th Century.   He failed because natural 
pollination of vanilla is by the Melipone bee which is only found in Mexico. 
The pollination problem was resolved by Charles Francios Antoine Morren of 
Liege in 1839 and a practical hand pollination method was developed on 
Reunion Island in 1841.

Bear

-----Original Message----- 
I asked my Swedish friends, they said Linneus tried to grow vanilla in
Sweden but he never succeded. According to them vanillan come to Gotland
through German traders and they got it from Spain, after 1502. Spain and
Austria was the same empire for several centuries and I guess the
discoveries from Columbus come at the same time to Toledo, the imperial
capital then, and to Vienna.
When we talked about the 16th century I was speaking about 1530 or 40, the
peak for Gotland.
Ana


Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2014 23:24:55 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Vanilla

I just posted the following summary on vanilla to the subtleties list in January of this year. 

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Date: January 30, 2014 at 12:13:50 AM EST

I first did a long summary of research on vanilla back in January 2003 in answer to a thread and queries on MK-Cooks. This was updated in 2014.

The Hugh Morgan association is very suspect, even if it appear on the 
web and is repeated in the Florilegium.

"Then, in 1602, Hugh Morgan, apothecary to Queen Elizabeth I, suggested that vanilla could be used as a flavoring all by itself, and the versatility of the exotic bean was finally uncovered."
http://www.nielsenmassey.com/historyofvanilla.htm
[note the source of the story]

This story is repeated in the Florilegium, but cites another flavouring company.[And in 2014 kit is repeated in blogs and other websites with no sources listed.]

Oddly, enough Andrew Dalby repeats "It was Hugh Morgan, apothecary to Oueen Elizabeth I, who is said to have suggested the use of vanilla as a flavouring for other foods." Dangerous Tastes, p.148.

If the Hugh Morgan connection is true, then the uses seem to have been medicinal. It may well occur in medicinal recipes in the 17th century, but there don't seem to be other recorded instances or recipes in the literature to support the claim.


From another posting---  Vanilla

OED lists this as the earliest quotation
1662 H. Stubbe  Indian Nectar ii. 11

They added..the Vaynillas [to the chocolate] for the like ends, and to
strengthen the brain.

[No one on this list mentioned some of the more unusual aspects about 
the naming of the plant. SCA-Cooks would have leaped upon and spent 
days on the fact that the name is connected to the word vaina (:-L. va 
gi na  vagina) meaning 'sheath'

Mark Morton's book Cupboard Love goes into the background of the 
word for those interested.]

Anyway the date of 1662 would go along with C. Anne Wilson's comment in 
Food and Drink in Britain that it came into use in England with the 
preparation of chocolate as a drink. Through EEBO I looked at the 1662 
copy of Henry Stubbe's The Indian nectar, or, A discourse concerning 
chocolata the nature of cacao-nut and the other ingredients of that 
composition is examined and stated according   to the judgment and 
experience of the Indian and Spanish writers. It's the Harvard copy of 
180 plus pages that is available online.

This does have recipes in English for making the drink using vanilla as 
an ingredient. Stubbe cites several recipes including one recipe as that 
being used by Antonio Colmenero de Ledefina which includes vanilla. One 
thing that is valuable about this discourse is that he describes and 
discusses all the ingredients that go into making the drink.

On page 52 he writes:

"The next ingredient of Chocolate is Tlilxochitl (or as some write   it 
Tlixochil) or, as the Spaniards call it, banillas olorofas, or 
Vaynillas=85. their smell is admirable, they which have parallei'd it 
with Ambergrise, Musk,   or Balsame, failed in their Character for it 
hath a peculiar mildness, and delicacy in it, not to be found in those 
other." Stubbe goes on to fully describe the plant, the pod, and the 
seeds saying that "Whosoever shall try these Vaynillas by the strength 
and pentratingness of their smell, and perhaps by the vigour of their 
effects, performing what nothing of European, or East-Indy growth, of a 
less Degree in heat and dryness, then the third, doth; will rank them 
with those of that sort but here who shall consult his   Senses, and 
observe the mild delicacy in these American Products, and particularly   
in the Vaynillas, which is inconsistent with so much heat, and dryness 
and shall   consider, that his tongue feels nothing parallel to what 
happens upon the tasting of a grain of Chili, or red Pepper (which yet 
is placed as hot in the third degree) he will by many degrees separate 
and distinguish the former from the latter=85." He concludes, "for to 
use Cloves instead of Vainillas is a ridiculous mockage, and hurtful to 
several complexions in Chocolota."

Another earlier work that mentions vanilla is A Curious Treatise of the 
Nature   and Quality of Chocolate. It is given as being written in 
Spanish by Antonio   Colmenero and put into English by Diego de 
Vades-forte. It was published in English in 1640. It too lists recipes 
for the drink. Listed among the other ingredients that go into "this 
confection" is "another which they call Vinecaxtli, which in the Spanish 
they call Orejuelas, which sweet smelling Flowers, Aromaticall and hot." 
Page 14

This answers the question: can we find recipes in English from before 
1650? Well, yes we can. I would also point out that by 1683 recipes 
featuring chocolate with vanilla are being recorded in household 
manuscripts. See Brears' The Gentlewoman's Kitchen for examples. Do not 
be fooled however by the infamous "chocolate cream" featured in 
Fettiplace. It does not date from 1604.

There are recipes for chocolate that use vanilla published in France by 
M St. Disdier in 1692.

See Sophie and Michael Coe's The True History of Chocolate. pp.162-164. 
She mentions Hernandez's account of an Aztec recipe for chocolate that inflames the venereal appetites on pages 
90-94. It also includes mention of vanilla.

One really weird place that vanilla can be found in a 17th century 
recipe for   something other than a drink involving chocolate is in a 
book of ices. Today   it seems second nature to think about vanilla ice 
cream, but in the 17th century?  Actually yes!!! Elizabeth David notes 
that she owned a copy of an Italian work (undated but definitely 17th 
century) entitled Brieve e Nuova Modo da Farsi ogni sorte di Sorbette 
con facilta. In Harvest of the Cold Months, David writes on page 150: 
"An unexpected one, given the period, is vanilla, which evidently came 
early to Naples via its Spanish overloads and their colony of Peru. A 
vanilla ice in those days was not custard based but simply an infusion 
of 1 large bean pulverized with sugar and immersed in 10 goblets of 
boiling water."

EEBO-TCP indicates that "vanilla" only appears in
The manner of making of coffee, tea, and chocolate as it is used in most 
parts of Europe, Asia, Africa, and America, with their vertues
Author: Dufour, Philippe Sylvestre, 1622-1687. London : Printed for 
William Crook ..., 1685.

? ...r Pimiento, half an ounce of Cloves, three little Straws or Vanilla's de Campeche, or for want thereof, as much Annis-seed a ...
? ...Mexicans; but this Wood has nothing of affinity with our Vanilla's which are used in making the Chocolate, the which are very pleasant to th ...
? ...Alexandria, vulgarly called pale Roses, a little Bean Cod or Vanilla de Campeche, two drams of Cinnamon, a dozen of Almonds, and as ...

So that source really offers us nothing more than it did in 2003.

Of course if one searches in it under "Vinecaxtli" one can read that 
recipe as given in A curious treatise of the nature and quality of chocolate. VVritten in Spanish by Antonio Colmenero, doctor in physicke and chirurgery. And put into English by Don Diego de Vades-forte.
Author: Colmenero de Ledesma, Antonio. Imprinted at London : By I. Okes, 
dwelling in Little St. Bartholomewes, 1640.

"There are also other ingredients, which are used in this Confection. One called Mechasuchil; and another which they call Vinecaxtli, which in the Spanish they call Orejuelas, which are sweet smelling Flowers, Aromaticall and hot. And the Mechasuchil hath a Purgative quality; for in the Indies they make a purging potion of it. In stead of this, in Spaine they put into the Confection, powder of Roses of Alexandria, for opening the Belly. I have spoken of all these Ingredients, that every one may make choise of those which please him best, or are most proper for his infirmities." page 14

There are two modern books that are available:

Ecott, Tim. Vanilla. Travels in search of the Ice Cream Orchid. 2004. Rain, Patricia. Vanilla. The Cultural History of the World's Favorite Flavor and Fragrance. 2004

Both were published after our initial conversations on the topic. Neither is indexed or footnoted as to sources.

Johnnae


Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 23:20:31 -0500
From: "TerryDecker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Vanilla

Apparently the source of the Hugh Morgan association with vanilla is 
Bradford, Charles Angell, Hugh Morgan, Queen Elizabeth's Apothecary, Heron & 
Co., London, 1939.  I haven't located a copy to verify the possibility. 
Bradford was a recognized historian and author, so that may be why Dalby 
accepts the claim.

Bear

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	vanilla-msg	Page 21 of 21