spices-msg - 1/20/08 Information on medieval spices. Period documentation. Sources. NOTE: See also the files: herbs-msg, herbs-cooking-msg, p-herbals-msg, seeds-msg, p-spice-trade-msg, saffron-msg, garlic-msg, merch-spices-msg, gums-resins-msg, spice-mixes-msg, galangale-msg, ginger-msg, G-of-Paradse-msg, nutmeg-mace-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: jeffs at math.bu.EDU (Jeff Suzuki) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: spices etc. Date: 28 Nov 1994 15:01:52 -0500 >Indian (like from India) spices were, I understand, sold by placing >the spice on one side of a scale and gold on the other. When the >weight balanced you had payed for the spice -- it's weight in gold. Depends on the period and the spice. Saffron is far more expensive than pepper. Sugar is not cheap either. For lots of other _neat_ info regarding the cost of spices etc. in late period Italy, see Frank Swetz, _Capitalism and Arithmetic_, which also includes a facsimile copy of _The Treviso Arithmetic_, the first mathematics textbook ever printed, even if it does use the pernicious Arabic numerals. Tio dell'abaco From: rousseaua at immunex.wa.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Cubeb Date: 22 Aug 95 14:44:40 PST Organization: Immunex Corporation, Seattle, WA Hey all from Anne-Marie in An Tir Grains of Paradise and Galangale are both readily available here in Seattle. My favorite herbal apothecary has whole galangale, which resembles a ginger root you've let sit in the produce drawer of your fridge for about a century. I've also found the powdered stuff (aka galinga) wherever they sell stuff for Thai cooking. One thing, I've noticed that the already powdered stuff seems pretty wimpy, but I can't imagine getting any usable spice out of the petrified whole stuff. Any suggestions? --AM, who thinks one of the best things about living here is being able to get bottles of rosewater in half liter sizes for really really cheap, and just across the street from work! Hee. From: bjm10 at cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,rec.crafts.brewing,rec.food.historic Subject: Re: Need help identifying spice Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 18:35:33 -0400 Organization: Cornell University rcpj at panix.com (Pierre Jelenc) wrote: > Bryan J. Maloney <bjm10 at cornell.edu> writes: > > However, I am at a bit of a loss to divine the identities of two spices > > (not being a proper cook). What are "auence" and "spikenard"? > > Avens: a plant of the genus Geum (rose family). > > Spikenard: Nardostachys jatamansi (a type of valerian). Okay, so what are these plants marketed under and/or what are their modern common names? From: dpeters at panix.com (D. Peters) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,rec.crafts.brewing,rec.food.historic Subject: Re: Need help identifying spice Date: 14 Mar 1996 19:50:30 -0500 Organization: Panix Pierre Jelenc <rcpj at panix.com> wrote: >Bryan J. Maloney <bjm10 at cornell.edu> writes: >> >> Okay, so what are these plants marketed under and/or what are their modern >> common names? > >That's what they're called: avens and spikenard. > >They are not used in cooking anywhere that I know of; your only chance is >with a plant nursery, I suppose. I bought my spikenard from the Indiana Botanical Gardens in Hobart, IN; my catalogue got lost in the move east, but I would think that Directory Assistance could help you. If you like giving your custom to SCA merchants, try the Pepperers' Guild. Have fun. D.Peters From: mjbr at tdk.dk (Michael Bradford) From: jeffebear1 at aol.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: medieval spice names wanted Date: 26 Dec 1996 04:00:46 GMT Grains of paridise, 4 pepper blend, cardamon etc. are availible mailorder or walk in from DragonMarsh 3737 6th St Riverside, Ca 92501 (909) 276-1116. They carry over 4000 herbs and spices plus a whole lot more. You can order a herb & oil list or just request your list. Most items are around $1.00 an oz. They carry such items as saffron and galangal root at affordable prices. Great for the SCA recreation cook. Lady Morigianna From: "Philip W. Troy" <troy at asan.com> To: sca-cooks at eden.com Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 13:13:07 -0400 Subject: Re: Medieval spices Sean Ellwood wrote: > Any suggestions on how to look check and see if certain spices were > available in Medeival China or Europe. > > Sven Carlson Sure! One place to look for such information is in books like "Food in History" by Reay Tannahill. Another is Harold McGee's "On Food and Cooking". Finding such accounts for China could be hard, since there's not too much for those who can't read accounts in Chinese. Except of course for accounts by people like Marco Polo, who is, at best, not always trustworthy, and William of Rubrick (I think that's his name) who is far more so. Europe is pretty easy. The extant recipes indicate quite clearly what spices would have been available in the place and time the recipes were written. They call for them, don't they? : ) Regards, Adamantius From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:04:04 -0500 Subject: Re: SC - Re: sca-cooks Re: Spice Use and Food Poisoning, etc. Hi, Katerine again. Philippa asks: >Just to play devil's advocate.... I quite understand growing up using what >to some would be "heavy handed" spicing, but for what reason did this heavy >use of spice start? It is now tradition, but what were the origins? And >even if it weren't to cover the taste of meat going slightly "off", could it >have been because the wild vegetables and gamier meat had stronger basic >flavors which are balanced better by stronger spicing? >Just a thought. First, where spicing is heavy, the reason is often that people like the taste. That simple. For virtually every major item that occurs in medieval dishes that call for spice, we also have surviving recipes that call for few spices or none. Chicken, in particular, runs the gamut from unspiced dishes to dishes that call for (some unknown quantity of) half the spices on the rack. That suggests that the intent is not to cover, but to vary the cuisine. But more crucially: what makes you think that medieval dishes were heavily spiced? Every study I've seen that purports to support that conclusion does so by looking at household accounts, and distributing total spice purchases over kitchen purchases. But that's nonsense, for four separate reasons. First, spices were also used in the bakery and brewery. Second, spices (especially salt and pepper) were used in preserving -- and soaked out before eating. Third, whole spices were sometimes burned on the fire for scent. Fourth, food that comes in as local produce or as rents will not appear in the purchases, but constitutes a large part of what was eaten in non-urban upper class settings. Every study that actually looks at the spices used for a particualr meal and the food in it reaches the opposite conclusion: that medieval spicing was not particualrly heavy handed. Since recipes by-and-large do not include quantities, you cannot tell from the recipes themselves. So: what makes you think that the phenomenon you are trying to explain ever existed? Cheers, - -- Katerine/Terry From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:52:23 -0500 Subject: Re: SC - Re: Spice Use and Food Poisoning, etc. Hi, Katerine here. Allison responds to Phillipa: >As for the current heavy use of pepper in foods, I think that followed >the popularity of Mexican--or American-version Mexican--foods. Tests >have been done by restaurant chains and food companies, and they have >found that more people ate more food if it were heavily spiced. Pepper was the cheapest medieval spice, and the one most heavily documented as used widely not only in upper class cookery but in every class right down to peasants. The current use is a revival (not particularly of medieval practices; relative to a significant drop here in the middle of this century). Medievals used a number of pepper-like spices, including cubeb and grains of paradise (I'm not speaking botannically, but in terms of general flavor class), both of which I've fed to people with no interest whatsoever in historical cuisine, to rave reviews. The bottom line, I think, is that people everywhere use spices because they *taste good*. That so many spices show up across so wide a swath of culinary traditions suggests that this is simply a human tendency. How much spices we eat results, among other things, from the food we're used to. Whether people in general like the flavor of any spices at all seems more strongly related to the interaction between human taste and smell and the spices themselves. - -- Katerine/Terry From: Charles Dean <charles at macquarie.matra.com.au> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:30:20 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: SC - Re: sca-cooks Re: Spice Use and Food Poisoning, etc. Hi all, This posting prompted me to expound a pet theory of mine. > But more crucially: what makes you think that medieval dishes were heavily > spiced? > > Every study I've seen that purports to support that conclusion does so > by looking at household accounts, and distributing total spice purchases > over kitchen purchases. But that's nonsense, for four separate reasons. > First, spices were also used in the bakery and brewery. Second, spices > (especially salt and pepper) were used in preserving -- and soaked out > before eating. Third, whole spices were sometimes burned on the fire for > scent. Fourth, food that comes in as local produce or as rents will not > appear in the purchases, but constitutes a large part of what was eaten > in non-urban upper class settings. > > Every study that actually looks at the spices used for a particualr meal > and the food in it reaches the opposite conclusion: that medieval spicing > was not particualrly heavy handed. Warning Charles' pet theory on spices follows: I believe that medieval cooks did use more, in quantity, of spices in dishes than we do today. There is good evidence that their spice consumption was higher that is now current by volume. We do have some recipes that give spice quantities that seem excessive to our modern tastes. I also believe that our cooking ancestors had a very similar palette to our modern one, in what was an acceptable amount of spicing. Two factors are also not taken into account when looking at medieval spicing. Firstly most of the spices we taste today have had 400+ years of plant breeding to make them taste stronger. You can see shifts in amounts of spices called for in recipes between Mrs Beaton's cooking book and modern versions, a much smaller period than 1200 to today. Secondly medieval spices were (often) transported over large distances, often for more than a year. In most cases they were kept in non-air tight containers. Most spices loose flavour when exposed to air. Spices were often stored longer then as is done currently as supply was more infrequent or spasmodic. Given the above reasons it is reasonable to assume that the spices available to the medieval cook had considerably less flavour than the modern versions that we are using for comparison. If you accept my premsies above then end the result is that our medeival cook could produce a result in flavour intensity that was little different to the effects we create today in modern cooking but using more in quanity of spice to achieve it. I am assuming that is is far more likely that spice flavour intensity varied rather than some sort of genetic shift changed our modern palatte from our medieval ancestors. Charles - --------------------------------------------------------- Charles Dean charles at macquarie.matra.com.au Matra Internetworks - Internet service providers. Ph (06) 251 6730 Fax (06) 253 4840 PO BOX 714, Jamison Centre, ACT 2614 AUSTRALIA From: "Sue Wensel" <swensel at brandegee.lm.com> Date: 16 Apr 1997 10:46:58 -0500 Subject: Re: SC - spicing > Clare said: > As to the strength of a spice,-- barks, seeds and roots keep their > scent and taste far longer that flowers and leaves. Herbs need to be used > up much more quickly than spices. I have cloves that I use for various > things that are at least 5 years old. The volatile oils in spices are a > bit more long lasting that volitiles oils from leaves and flowers. (That's > why old potpourri smells different ) There are exceptions of course. I agree with this point. In addition, storing bark/seeds/roots, unground, in waxed paper helps retain the volatile oils without increasing the amount of moisture. Keep these dry and they will retain their strength for a long time; get them wet and "use them or lose them." We have better drying techniques on a mass scale now than was possible in period. Therefore, I think our leafy/flowery spices last longer. We also have better storage containers now than then, with the advent of plastic. However, I do not think that it is out of line to assume that many (but by no means all) of the leafy/flowery spices used in period in upper class houses were grown in the manor gardens and used fresh. They would dry them for use during the winter. If indeed this were the case, then how does that change our conversions of period recipes? The standard conversion is 1 teaspoon of dried herb for 3 of fresh. Derdriu swensel at brandegee.lm.com From: "Philip W. Troy" <troy at asan.com> Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 01:07:03 -0400 Subject: Re: SC - Long pepper LYN M PARKINSON wrote: > What, exactly, is long pepper? I am allergic to all peppers so haven't > investigated this, but I ought to know about it as it appears in so many > recipes, and I could have a fellow cook add it after I'd sampled the > pepperless version. > > Allison Long pepper is piper longum, as opposed to piper negrum, or black pepper. It is a close realtive of black pepper, but the little berries grow in a cluster similar to a tiny oblong bunch of grapes or an ear of grain. Flavor is apparently similar but not identical to black pepper. I have not used it myself, and have not run across any in 15 years or so of looking, on and off. Some claim it is extinct, while others claim to know where it can be obtained by mail order. All I know is that I've never seen any long pepper, and don't think I've net anyone else who has seen it themselves. Plenty of "friend of a friend" stuff, though, so I suppose it could be a sort of urban legend. My apologies to anyone who may have seen or used the stuff: I am not accusing anyone of deceit, just saying I've never seen it. Adamantius From: Uduido at aol.com Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 22:18:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SC - Paprika << Since we have been discussing the sources for a variety of foods I was curious if anyone could add to my knowledge about paprika. According to my sources, the Turks introduced paprika to Hungary during their occupation. The Turkish occupation occured after the Battle of Mohacs in 1526. >> Possibly. Hot pepper seeds were brought back on all three of the first Columbus voyages. By 1528, they were a MAJOR agricultural crop in the Mediterranean Basin. I tend to personally avoid at all costs the use of new world foods in a feast because to many people it allows too much of an intrusion of the Current Middle Ages into the dream they are trying to achieve at an event. Bearing that in mind when I do European and Middle Eastern cuisine I never go out of my way to use any recipes that contain new world foods. And do not have any redacted in my collection. I also never decide what I would like to cook and then go searching for "period" recipes to justify it's use. All of the above I do do with thoughts of my guests and their ultimate enjoyment of unquestionably period food. Lord Ras From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 11:51:52 -0400 Subject: SC - Re: Long Pepper (again!) ALERT! ALERT! DANGER, WILL SCATLOCH! I've just made a rather silly error, and thought I'd point it out before anyone attempts to act upon this whole issue... The most competent herbal encyclopedia I know shows quite clear illustrations of both piper negrum and piper longum. The Negrum variety, or black pepper, also grows in a long, fairly tight cluster, which looks rather like an elongated blackberry. I suspect the individual berries are separated to facilitate even fermentation (whence comes the blackness) and drying. Piper longum is apparently much smaller than black pepper (1 inch or so vs. 3 or 4 inches long) and is more tightly packed in the cluster. So, the cross-hatching effect drawn by some artists may have some basis in reality; it looks almost like the bud from which a pine-cone grows. I therefore suspect it's possible Ysabeau has seen green peppercorns. Also, in case it helps, I have here some alternate names for the beastie in question: Pharmaceutical name: Fructus Piperis Longi Botanical name: Piper Longum Mandarin: B B (That's Bi Ba, with both vowels accented facing each other, like angry cartoon eyebrows, for those of you with straight ASCII text readers) Japanese: Hihatsu Korean: P'ilhal English: Long Pepper Fruit I also have a pair of Chinese ideograms, which might be useful for the non-Mandarin-speaking Chinese, but I can't duplicate them here on short notice. I also have acquired a listing of every herb store in the New York City area (several hundred) , and so the hunt begins...See what you people started??? : ) Sorry about the error. Didn't mean to mislead anyone. It 's just that my tiny brain is full, and for each new thing I learn, I tend to forget something else. Adamantius Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:56:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Varju at aol.com To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: That Period Hot Pink The Turks introduced paprika to Hungary in the 1500's. Now, what it got used for after that I don't know. Noemi From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 21:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: SC - mustard history Linneah quotes an article on mustard and asks: >I like mustard but I don't often see it at feasts. Was it really as >ubiquitous as the above makes it sound? _Food and Drink in Britain_ (C. Anne Wilson) quotes figures for a fifteenth-century English household which in a given year used 3/4 lb saffron, 5 lb pepper, 2 1/2 lb ginger, 3 lb cinnamon, 1 1/4 lb each of cloves and mace, and 84 lb mustard seed. Mustard, after all, was locally grown and was a whole lot cheaper than spices which had to be imported from the Orient. Elizabeth/Betty Cook Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:28:35 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - The siege cook challenge. S. Noss wrote: > When you honored folks grind spices for all kinds of things and for > mustard as below - what are you using to grind with? The old mortar and > pestle or food processor? > > Shirley A mortar and pestle is easier than it sounds, once you get used to it. Failing that, go out and spend $20 (about what you'd probably pay for a decent mortar and pestle, anyway) on two (2) electric coffee grinders. Label one "Coffee". Label the other "Spices". Learn to clean them well. They will be your friends. Those who don't drink coffee might need only one. Adamantius Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:15:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Uduido at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - The siege cook challenge. << to grind with? The old mortar and pestle or food processor? >> I use a mortar and pestle for small amounts (e.g. less than 1/4 cp). For larger amounts I use a coffee grinder (translate>spice grinder). For messy things in large amounts I use the food processor or blender. For small amounts, I would recommend the mortar and pestle as the flavor and texture have a pronounced difference in flavor to a trained palate than the other methods used. Lord Ras Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 18:34:47 -0700 (PDT) From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Subject: Re: SC - RECIPE CHALLENGE II Adamantius writes: >Somebody raised the point that it was unclear as to whether "clowes >gilofre" meant cloves, the spice, or the clove pink gillyflower. >Actually, the point was rammed down my throat that I was an idiot for >even considering that the spice might have been intended, but that is >neither here nor there... Period (and modern) French for cloves is "girofle"; a clove is "un clou de girofle"; given how much of period English cooking comes from French, I can't see why anything but the spice would be meant. Elizabeth/Betty Cook Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:44:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Uduido at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - opinions desired on feast menu/ (long - sorry) <<Are fennel seeds available in regular stores or where can I get it?>> Yes. If not any Italian market should have them since they are a major seasoning in Italian sausage. Lord Ras Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 08:46:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Griff41520 at aol.com To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: period spices? In regards to period spices, the cook book PLEYN DELIT goes into detail about period spices. They recommend as a substitute for "grains of paradise"-cardomom. Also Galingale can be found in Asian or Indian markets as galangal. To me it has a flavor somewhere between lemon grass and ginger. You can find the cookbook at the chivalry sport web site-www.renstor.com/index. look under books. Ivy Kingdom of Trimaris Shire of Tri Os Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:26:58 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Re: Questions Kathleen M Everitt wrote: > What are grains of Muske? Musk is any of various animal sex-attractant, pheromonal secretions. They were, in period, and are, now, very common in perfumes. They used to be taken and processed from glands of the musk deer or several other mammals. Essentially they were used to add an exotic perfume to foods. Adamantius Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 09:49:58 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - honey dormice recipe Decker, Terry D. wrote: <snip> > Recipe By : Apicius > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > NOTES : Glires: Isicio pocino, item pulpis ex omin membro glirium > trito, cum pipere, nucleis, lasere, liquamine farcies glires et sutos in > tegula positos mittes in furnum aut farsos in cilbano coques. > > Dormice: Stuffed dormice with pork filling, and with the meat of whole > dormice ground with pepper, pine nuts, silphium, and garum. Sew up and > place on a baking tile, and put them in the oven; or cook the stuffed > [dormice] in a pan. > > Translation from Giacosa, Ilaria Gozzini; A Taste of Ancient Rome, > University of Chicago Press, 1992. > > Stuffed Dormouse: Is stuffed with forcemeat of pork and small pieces of > dormouse meat trimmings, all pounded with pepper, nuts, laser, broth. > Put the dormouse thus stuffed in an earthen casserole, roast it in the > oven, or boil it in the stock pot. Just thought I'd throw a small note in here: laser and silphium are not the same thing. IIRC (which is as close as you're going to get on a Sunday morning before I've had my tea) silphium was a more or less unidentified (at least to us) plant resin which appears to have gone extinct or otherwise unavailable between the lifetime of Marcus Gavinus Apicius, and the time at which the earliest Apicius manuscript (7th century?) is dated. Laser appears to be the more readily available substitute for silphium, and is believed to be asafeotida gum, presumably ground to a powder. This is available as an extract in some herb or health-food stores, and as the genuine article, powdered resin, in Indian markets under the name "hing powder". G. Tacitus Adamantius, always interested in Soul Food ; ) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:19:11 -0400 (EDT) From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: SC - Cubebs << what is cubebs >> Cubebs = cubeb berries. Sort of peppery tasting with a hint of allspice. Although they are not used in modern cookery in my knowledge, they are still used in the production of gin as are galingal and grains. Ras Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:40:01 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Roc recipe-sort of > I have heard of galengal and grains of paradise [and I think I finally > found a shop that carries some!,but what is cubebs? > Lady Beatrix of Tanet Cubebs are yet another black pepper relative, looking vaguely like an allspice berry, but tasting rather like pepper with a strange numbing effect on the tongue. Not too different from Szechuan or Sansho or Fagara peppercorns (which are also not peppercorns, either...), and these are pretty good substitutes if you can't find cubebs. Adamantius Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:26:37 -0800 From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <acrouss at gte.net> Subject: Re: SC - spices vs. herbs? Hi all from Anne-Marie The strict definition is that if its from a leaf, its an herb, and if its from bark, seeds, flowers, or a non-plant material etc its a spice. According to my reading, in the middle ages, herbs did indeed encompass things like swiss chard and spinach (this according to the lists of "herbs" we are giving in things lke Charlemagnes _de Villis_ and other period gardening lists). And this list isn't limited to culinary herbs, either. Hope this helps... - --AM, who's 20th century mom says "if its cheap its an herb, if its expensive and imported, its a spice" :) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:04:24 -0800 From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <acrouss at gte.net> Subject: Re: SC - spices Hi all from Anne-Marie Angeline asks about grains of paradise and cubebs... If you cant get grains, I would recommend a mix of two parts black pepper to one part ginger. If you cant get cubebs, I would recommend substituting Tellicherry or other high quality flavorful black peppercorns. _Pleyn Delit_ says to use cardomom or a mix of cardamom and black pepper for grains, but to my palate, there is no flavor of cardamom. She admitted to me in a private email that she wrote that without ever having SEEN grains, much less tasted them. When I chomp on a cubeb, all I really taste is pepper. - --AM Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:09:29 EST From: CorwynWdwd <CorwynWdwd at aol.com> Subject: Re: SC - spices > There was a formula to 'create' cubebs, or something that would make the > same sort of taste, but I haven't found anything about grains of paradise. > How/Where can I find that. Cubebs can be found at a lot of Indian markets. You can TRY substituting allspice and pepper. Grains of Paradise are a kind of Cardomon, and they taste similar in my experence. Try an Indian or Orental market if there's one nearby. Cprwyn Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 23:24:21 -0800 From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com> Subject: Re: SC - spices Corwyn wrote (concerning grains of paradise): >Okay, okay, they're not EXACTLY like cardomon, but the ones in my kitchen >right now taste like in intense (as in dried) cardomon. :-) >>Of course, when I've been out to buy black mustard seeds (and called first) >I've been offered brown when I got there (and there most assuridly IS a >difference). Maybe I got shafted again? >>Corwyn. To me they taste peppery but not quite as hot and maybe a little sweeter?(It is hard to describe tastes.) Not particularly like cardamon. As towhether you got what you thought you were getting, grains are a little smaller than peppercorns, brown rather than the almost black of pepper,almost round but pointed at one spot which is tan--looks almost yellow against the brown. Elizabeth/Betty Cook Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:27:02 -0000 From: "Yeldham, Caroline S" <csy20688 at GlaxoWellcome.co.uk> Subject: SC - Spice query (was recipe with long spice list) I'd echo David/Cariodac's query about tumeric. Scully in 'The Art of Cookery' quotes the inventory of Pegalotti (1315 - 1340), a Florentine grocer who stocked amongst other things, "anise, pepper, white, black and long, ginger (6 types), tumeric, cinnamon, cassia buds, cassia, caraway, grains of paradise, sugars (8 types) alum, mastic, zedoary, cloves, clove stalks, clove leaves, nutmegs, cubebs, cardamons, galingale, mace, cumin, carobs, aloes, saffron, grape wines, quince wine, pomegranate wine, honey, molasses, carob syrup, dates, figs, currants, pistachios", but I haven't seen any recipes with tumeric, zedoary (or alum, aloes or mastic for that matter). Any ideas anyone? Could they be medicinal? Scully mentions pomegranate wine as given in cases of illness. BTW John Hervey gives the The 'Fromond' List of Plants of c. 1500, a list of plants grown in England (including artichokes!) and also including galingale, which did surprise me, as I assumed it was imported. I'd be interested in comments. Caroline Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:15:37 EST From: KKimes1066 <KKimes1066 at aol.com> Subject: Re: SC - Galingale It grows abundantly in the Thames, and is known as "Sweet Flag". To reiterate an earlier statement..... DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!! Sweet flag is a suspected carcinogen. Don't use it. Whole root Galangale can be had very cheaply from Penzey's Spice Catalog. That is the real stuff, and you can get it with in one or two days if need it desperately. Percival Beaumont Esq-App From: Mark Shier <mark at medievalwares.com> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Spices Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 14:40:01 -0800 Organization: Island Net on Vancouver Island B.C. Canada Anyone interested in medieval culinary spices should track down a copy of "Spices in the Medieval Diet", by Bruno Lauroix, in Food and Foodways 1, 1985, pp 43-76. Lauriox uses account records, cookbooks and medical treatises to look at spice use. Among other things, he concludes that the idea of pepper being extremely expensive and restriced to the nobility is a modern fiction. He is cautious on the amount of spices consumed, but he does not think that consumption was much higher than today. mark der gaukler Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:49:55 EDT From: DianaFiona <DianaFiona at aol.com> Subject: Re: SC - Fwd: Spice Is Nice << Ras says: > My only disappoint is that they don't carry long pepper which I would > give my eye teeth to get ahold of especially if it were still clustered. > <sigh> Worldspice carries long peppers, and if by "still clustered", you mean still looking like little long petrified catkins, that's the stuff. >> Haven't looked at their site in a while, but I believe that Sirene Spices (They're the ones that have been advertising in TI.) sell long pepper also. Their address is: http://www.silk.net/sirene/ Ldy Diana, who *really* needs to get around to ordering from one of these wonderful places! Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:53:25 EDT From: LrdRas <LrdRas at aol.com> Subject: SC - Whole spices stefan at texas.net writes: << What differance would it make if it were still clustered or not? Or do you have a specific use in mind that needs the long pepper to still be on clusters? >> There are two things which make purchasing long pepper in clusters (or any other spice whole). First you are relatively assured that the spice has not been adulterated. Secondly being clustered reduces the surface area which comes in contact with the surrounding atmosphere thereby reducing oxidation and deterioration resulting in a much longer shelf life. We see the same concept in purchasing other spices whole such as nutmegs, peppercorns, cinnamon sticks and saffron threads. The less processing the better. Ras Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:37:49 -0700 From: vincent_tom at burr-brown.com Subject: Re: SC - Source for Gallingale >Excuse me for showing my ignorance - what is Gallingale? It's a cousin to Ginger, with a bit more of a peppery flavor to it. It's only popular now to Medievalists and Indonesian cooks, as far as I know. Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:07:11 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Spices in cooking [was Jamaican Jerk (was jerked meat)] Anne-Marie Rousseau wrote: > > My favorite debunker of the spoiled food myth is to point out that we have > shopping lists for big households and when you look at the amount of spice > they buy, it really isnt that much. Where lots of people get confused is in > the variety and number of DIFFERENT spices (especially those of the exotic > garlic salt crowd). Medieval food often (but not always) will call for > small amounts of lots of different things. This seems exotic until you look > at the lable of a Heinz 57 bottle, or read the ingredients of your Kentucky > Fried Chicken. Your basic ketsup has far more types of spices in it, say, > than your basic egredouce. Yeah, if you look at a source like Le Menagier, who, while not royalty or anything, seems to have been well-to-do, the evidence found in his work seems to suggest extreme frugality with spices (including suggestons for best ways to re-use the cloves, etc., how to clean the last bit of powdered pepper out of your mortar so it doesn't go to waste, and a number of other indicators that suggest that while a number of spices were used, even by the "middle class", their use was not profligate). Add to that the fact that it seems evident that there were definite seasons for slaughtering several farm animals, as well as for hunting game, and the picture is much more of a society whose consumption of fresh meat was centered on the colder months of the year, say, November to February. Following that you have Lent, with meat-eating severely curtailed, if not entirely eliminated, for a month and a half or so. That leaves us with half of spring and the summer to be eating this alleged rotten meat, in spite of the fact that we know a lot of salt meat was eaten at these times, together with the fresh meat of smaller domestic animals and game, like chickens and rabbits. The recipes I have seen that are specifically identified as being for summer seem to center on chicken and capon, which would be killed on an as-needed basis. Finally, there are the recorded laws against disguising day-old meat as fresh, with pretty stiff penalties, especially for those who processed it in things like pies to make the freshness, or lack thereof, a more burred issue. I just can't buy the idea that there was so much meat just lying around going off. Adamantius Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:34:01 -0500 Subject: SC - Spice cabinet-what do we stock? Nick Sasso wrote: > What items would be considered necessary, recommended and luxury > items in a recreationist's spice collection. This includes spices, dried > herbs, condiments and other flavorings. From: Meadhbh: maddie teller-kook <meadhbh at io.com> I would recommend the following: Saffron Cubebs Grains of Paradise Black Pepper Cloves Bay Leaf Oregano Basil Marjoram Garlic Ginger Galangale Rosemary Lovage Borage Rose Petals (organic only) Calendula Nutmeg and Mace From Bear "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Cardamom Coriander Anise seed Fenugreek (for early Medieval and ethnic cooking) From: "John Henschen" <bacchus at revealed.net> cardamom coriander From: Failenn "DAVIS, VICTORIA" <VICTORIA.DAVIS at aeroquip.com> savory From: Amy E. Sousa/Lady Elisabeth Borden, Barony of the Bridge, EK <LdyElisbth at aol.com>: Chervil Hyssop and Sage From: Rudd Rayfield <RuddR at aol.com> cinnamon From: Ras <LrdRas at aol.com> sugar Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:15:25 -0400 From: Nick Sasso <Njs at mccalla.com> Subject: SC - Spices, pantry and import of each The list I have been offered here is appreciated greatly. It offered a few things I had not considered. The question that seems of even more import is: which ones are absolute necessities, and which are important yet less so? When I present to a group of new cooks or curious people, they will be a bit overwhelmed by a laundry list of things they have to buy to be medieval cooks. I figure that the list of general must haves includes SPICES: saffron, grains of paradise, black peppercorns, galingale, cardamom, salt, cubebs Additionally, as available for purchase, or in an herb garden: FRESH HERBS garlic, sage, rosemary, ginger, borage, (No one mentioned) Rue, chervil, marjoram, CONDIMENTS: verjuice, vinegar, garum/liquimen Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 12:20:29 -0700 From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <acrouss at gte.net> Subject: Re: SC - Spice cabinet-what do we stock? Hi all from Anne-Marie my kitchen for tourneys has the following... balsamic vinegar white wine vinegar good quality olive oil whole nutmegs and grater cone sugar and grater cassia (cinnamon) ginger whole garlic salt peppercorns and peppermill a big jar of my poudre forte (contains all kinds of stuff, and is a good general medieval seasoning. means I have to pack less!) saffron Fresh herbs I bring according to the recipes I plan on making...for this weekend I have marjoram, parsley, sage, and mint. - --Anne-Marie, who is packing for coronation as we speak Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 15:17:21 EDT From: DianaFiona at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Spices, pantry and import of each I figure that the list of general must haves includes SPICES: saffron, grains of paradise, black peppercorns, galingale, cardamom, salt, cubebs Additionally, as available for purchase, or in an herb garden: FRESH HERBS garlic, sage, rosemary, ginger, borage, (No one mentioned) Rue, chervil, marjoram, CONDIMENTS: verjuice, vinegar, garum/liquimen ============================================================ >> Everyone's going to have slightly different prefferences on the listings, depending on what sources they use most. My slight adjustments would include moving ginger to the (Dried) spices list, dropping the cubebs, and adding cinnamon, cumin and corriander. In the fresh herbs, I'd drop borage and add parsley, thyme, mint and hyssop--and, reluctantly, fresh corriander (I hate it, but it *was* pretty popular......). I'd probably add mustard to the condiments--I haven't seen it *in* that many dishes, but it's easy to get and so *good*. ;-) Ldy Diana Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 00:51:27 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Re: Spice Cabinet-what do we stock? I thought it might be nice to include a list from a period source: Taillevent's Viandier (Scully translation) . "170. Spices Necessary for This Present Recipe Book: ginger, cinnamon, cloves, grain of paradise, long pepper, aspic [this might be a mistranslation for spikenard], round pepper, cassia buds, saffron, nutmegs, bay leaves, galingale, mace, laurel leaves, cumin, sugar, almonds, garlic, onions, shallots, herb bennet, sorrel, vine leaves or vine shoots, currants and green wheat in winter. For steeping, white wine, verjuice, vinegar, water, greasy broth, cow's milk and almond milk." The two references to bay leaves and laurel leaves may be an error: bay leaves are pretty much regarded as the edible form of laurel leaf; maybe the second reference is to bay berries? This is interesting in that it appears to show some differences between French and English verions of medieval court cookery. Note the absence of cubebs, coriander seed, caraway seed, anise or fennel seed, which appear pretty frequently in the contemporary (late 14th century) English recipe books. What would I add? Mustard, cubebs, coriander seed, anise, fennel, caraway, saunders, parsley, sage, marjoram, hyssop, dittany, and pellitory (iffy). I'd also want some honey and some good oil, but those might not be appropriate for a discussion on spice cabinets. Adamantius Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 08:09:34 -0500 From: vjarmstrong at aristotle.net (Valoise Armstrong) Subject: 11 th C. spices and zedoary (was: Re: SC - Spice cabinet-what do we stock?) All the discussion of what spices we stock for recreating period cooking tickled something in my memory. In my never-ending search for all things German I found the following on the web page for Francesco Sirene <http://www.silk.net/sirene/medgerm.htm> There's a chart called A Medieval and Renaissance German Spice Chest. I rummaged through my files and found it. Apparently this was complied from 7 cookbooks ranging from mid-14th to late 16th centuries by Michel Balard. Complete bibliographical info is on the page. One of the spices on the list that I don't recognize is zedoary. Anyone know what that is? This is from an English translation of a French-language article on German cookbooks, I'm not sure which language zedoary comes from. On the the 11th century part - On the same page there a quote from a 13th century book that quotes an earlier work by al-Tartushi, who visited Mainz in 1083 and described the spices available: "On occasion spice, which comes from only the farthest Orient, is found there, whereas Mainz is situated in the farthest Occident: for example, pepper, ginger, cloves, spikenard, costum, and galanga, which are imported from India, where they occur quantity." Full bilbiographical information is on <http:www.silk.net/sirene.medgerm.htm> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 08:20:54 -0500 From: vjarmstrong at aristotle.net (Valoise Armstrong) Subject: Re: SC - Spice cabinet-what do we stock? I just posted the message on 11th century spices and thought I ought to check and make sure the page I referred to was still there on the Francisco Sirene site. It was and I also found pages on late Roman, Norse, and Russian spice chests, as well as some great suggestions on how to put together a spice chest for your particular persona. The address is: http://www.silk.net/sirene/spiceche.htm Valoise Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 14:31:49 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: 11 th C. spices and zedoary (was: Re: SC - Spice cabinet-what do we stock?) > One of the spices on the list that I don't recognize is zedoary. > Anyone know what that is? This is from an English translation of a > French-language article on German cookbooks, I'm not sure which language > zedoary comes from. Zedoary is the dried powdered rhizome of the Indian plant, Curcuma zedoaria. The word is probably Persian in origin. The plant originates in the Himalayas and is grown in Madagascar (thank you, quick ref and Root). Don't ask me about the taste, I've never used any. Bear Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 22:18:04 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - Is allspice period? > Isn't allspice a native of the West Indies? If so would it be possible > for it to be LATE period? Does anyone know of any late period > recipes that call for allspice? > > Henri > mailto:mikel at pdq.net I've seen two versions of this. One says Columbus found allspice in Jamaica in 1494. The other says he missed it, and it was found by later explorers. It was one of the spices used for curing boucan (17th Century). The first recipe I know of it being used in is a terrapin soup from the early 19th Century. If you come across it in an older recipe it may be called pimiento or pimento. Bear Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 12:18:39 EDT From: THLRenata at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Galingale and grains of paradise... You might also try DragonMarsh in Revierside, CA. They have a huge selection of herbs and spices, including both GoP and galingal. They can be reached at Dragonmrsh at aol.com or www.dragonmarsh.com. There was some trouble with the website last week, so you might just want to e-mail them and get their catalog. Renata Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:54:29 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - An article on medieval spices It is a scholarly journal. Try this URL: http://www.gbhap-us.com/journals/325/325-top.htm > ---------- > From: Mark.S Harris[SMTP:rsve60 at email.sps.mot.com] > Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 1998 11:12 AM > To: SCA-Cooks maillist > Subject: SC - An article on medieval spices > > I was editing this message to put in my spices-msg file and thought > that some of you might find it interesting but not have seen it yet. > > Can anyone tell me about this "Food and Foodways"? I assume it is > a journal of some type. > > Stefan li Rous > stefan at texas.net > > ============= > From: Mark Shier <mark at medievalwares.com> > Newsgroups: rec.org.sca > Subject: Spices > Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 14:40:01 -0800 > Organization: Island Net on Vancouver Island B.C. Canada > > Anyone interested in medieval culinary spices should track down a copy > of > > Lauriox uses account records, cookbooks and medical treatises to look > at spice use. Among other things, he concludes that the idea of pepper > being extremely expensive and restriced to the nobility is a modern > fiction. He is cautious on the amount of spices consumed, but he does > not think that consumption was much higher than today. > > mark der gaukler Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:19:34 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Spice/Herb Grinders (was Rosemary Usage) THLRenata at aol.com writes: << Please tell me about spice grinders, as it looks like I'n going to need one. (I just got a shipment of Grains of Paradise and Cubebs!) What kinds do you listfolk recommend? How does one clean them between herbs? Renata >> I use a coffee grinder for my herbs and spices when I don't think my mortar and pestle will be sufficient. The grinders are available at any department store and are rather inexpensive. I think mine was around 10 dollars. I only use it for spices and herbs. Since you will never be putting liquid ingredients in it or grinding anything that is not in a dried state cleaning is really unnecessary beyond normal maintenance. A simple swipe with a paper towel is all that is really necessary. Ras Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:15:17 -0700 From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <acrouss at gte.net> Subject: Re: SC - Spice/Herb Grinders (was Rosemary Usage) Hi all from Anne-Marie we are asked about spice grinders. I use (as does Tony of WorldSpice) a Braun coffee mill that has never seen coffee in its life. I use this for small batches of almonds for almond milk too. I use a large natural bristle pastry brush to clean it by brushing out the moving bits, etc VERY thoroughly immediately after use. Occasionally I'll wash the lid with soapy water (like when I grinded chocolate in it and it all melted, rats!) The little braun mills have a good strong motor, and they're cheap enough that when you finally kill it (mines been going strong for about five years now, but Tony goes through one every couple months) you don't feel bad. For nutmeg and cone sugar, I have a small cheese grater. For pepper, I have a dedicated pepper mill (got a lovely german wood one from Tony), and for grains I have a dedicated pepper mill (a cheap small plastic one, not from Tony!). I also have a marble mortar and pestle, but hardly use that anymore. For smaller amounts of fresh herbs (or at a re-enactment event), I use a very sharp knife and elbow grease. For large batches, I use my Cuisinart. - --AM Madrone/ An Tir Seattle/WA Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 14:40:45 EDT From: DianaFiona at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Spice/Herb Grinders (was Rosemary Usage) LrdRas at aol.com writes: << Since you will never be putting liquid ingredients in it or grinding anything that is not in a dried state cleaning is really unnecessary beyond normal maintenance. A simple swipe with a paper towel is all that is really necessary. Ras >> Ha! Tell that to my grinder when I try grinding a sweet spice after all the cumin I'm constantly using! ;-) I've occasionally resorted to very carefully washing and rinsing the bowl, wiping dry, then letting it air out well before using again. Ldy Diana Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 16:56:52 -0400 From: "Margo Hablutzel" <Margo.Hablutzel.margolh at nt.com> Subject: SC - Reducing feast fees and cleaning spice grinders For the latter, I was taught to run a bit of bread through to clear out the bits of spice, or coffee, as bread is usually cheaper and more expendable (and you get some interesting-flavoured crumbs for breading, cakes, etc.). - ---= Morgan Morgan Cely Cain * Steppes, Ansteorra (although temporarily in Atlantia) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 23:21:36 -0400 From: Phil & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Reducing feast fees and cleaning spice grinders Margo Hablutzel wrote: > For the latter, I was taught to run a bit of bread through to clear out the > bits of spice, or coffee, as bread is usually cheaper and more expendable > (and you get some interesting-flavoured crumbs for breading, cakes, etc.). This little bit of wisdom is, I recall, the _very first_ thing mentioned by le Menagier de Paris in his section on cookery. Adamantius stgardr, East Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 14:54:50 -0400 From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow) Subject: Re: SC - Reducing feast fees and cleaning spice grinders Adamantius sez: >This little bit of wisdom is, I recall, the _very first_ thing mentioned > by le Menagier de Paris in his section on cookery. "Primo, in all sausages and thick pottages, wherein spices and bread be brayed, you should first bray the spices and take them out of the mortar, because the bread which you bray afterwards requires that which remaineth from the spices; thus naught is lost that would be lost if 'twere done otherwise." Power, The Goodman of Paris, p. 223. Cindy/Sincgiefu renfrow at skylands.net Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 12:45:02 -0800 From: Vicki Strassburg Eldredge <taltos at primenet.com> Subject: SC - Time to give something back With all the wonderful information I've received from this list, it's only fair that I share when I find something really cool. (This may be redundant for some of you, but I know I was excited by it.) A chart follows which gives a spice, and then the name it can be found under in various ethnic stores. ~Maedb >From _The Complete Book of Spices (A Practical Guide to Spices and Aromatic Seeds)_ by Jill Norman, (c) 1990 ISBN 0-670-83437-8 ajowan ~ ajwain, carom, lovage (indian) anise ~ saunf (indian) yan kok (chinese) jintan manis (malaysian) asafetida ~ hing (indian) caraway ~ kala jeera, shia jeera (indian) cardamom ~ elaichi (indian) wok lok wuat (chinese) kapulaga (indonesian) buah ~ pelaga (malay) kravan (thai) cassia buds ~ nagkesar (indian) cayenne ~ lal mirch (indian) pisi hui (thai) coriander ~ dhania (indian) ketumber (indonesian, malay) pak chi met (thai) cubeb ~ tjabe djawa (indonesian) cumin ~ jeera (indian) jinten (indonesian) jinten putih (malay) yee raa (thai) cumin,black ~ kala jeera (indian) curry leaves ~ kari patta (indian) daun kari (indonesian) daun kai pla (malay) bai karee (thai) dill ~ sowa (indian) adas cina (indonesian) fennel ~ saunf (indian) wooi heung (chinese) adas (indon., malay) fenugreek ~ methi (indian) galangal,greater ~ laos (indones.) lengkuas (malay) khaa (thai) galangal,lesser ~ sa leung geung (chinese) kencur (indon.) kaffir lime leaves ~ daun jeruk purut (indonesian) bai makrut (thai) lemon grass ~ sereh (indonesian, malay) ta krai (thai) mace ~ bunga pala (malay) dawk chand (thai) mango powder ~ amchoor (indian) mustard seeds ~ rai (indian) biji sawi (malay) nigella ~ kala jeera, kalonji (indian) pomegrante ~ anadana (indian) poppy seeds ~ khas khas (indian) kas kas (malay) saffron ~ kesar (indian) kunyit kering (malay) screwpine ~ rampe (indian) daun pandan (indonesian) bai toey hom (thai) sesame ~ til (indian) chee ma (chinese) bijan (malay) dee la (thai) star anise ~ pak kok (chinese) bunga lawang (indonesian, malay) poy kak bua (thai) tamarind ~ imli (indian) asam (indonesian) asam java (malay) mak kam (thai) turmeric ~ haldi (indian) wong geung (chinese) kunjit (indonesian, malay) kamin (thai) zedoary ~ amb halad, gundhmul, kachar (indian) kentjur (indonesian) - -- ~ Me (vicki, maedb, taltos) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:27:54 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: hot foods (was Re: SC - Period Chili) Kornelis Sietsma wrote: > On the subject of hot foods - chilies may by OOP, but are there period > recipes for hot foods using mustard, pepper, or horseradish? > > You can get a good decent heat from any of these products - but was this a > period practice? And how old are "devilled" foods? While mustard, pepper, and horseradish were used in period, they seem rarely, if ever, to have been added to other foods to make them significantly hot. The only recipe text that comes close to this usage (that I can think of offhand) is Hugh Plat's 1609 kielbasa recipe (To Make a Polonian Sawsedge), in which he instructs us, as I recall, to make the sausage good and hot with ginger and pepper. I seem to recall one or two other references to using spices liberally so long as you _don't_ make the dish too hot. (And no, before people latch onto the above, it is in no way intended to suggest people used a lot of spices to disguise rotten meat. Fresh meat was generally cheaper than spices.) All this being said, though, while there were both mustard and pepper sauces used pretty consistently throughout the SCA's period (the only horseradish sauce I can think of offhand is in Kenelm Digby, published in 1669), I think it would generally have been considered to be medically unsound to eat _very_ hot foods, what with choleric humours, an' all. Adamantius stgardr, East Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:02:06 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - Quantities of salt and spices used. > When we discuss quantities of spices added, we would do well to consider their > shelf life. In period, spices were usually on the (Silk) Road something like > three years after their harvesting, before they came to the cooks' hands. Another common route for spices was from India to Mocha at the beginning of the monsoon. From Mocha to the two major ports at the head of the Red Sea. Transport overland to Alexandria or the Levant. Then by sea to Turkey and Italy or overland to Persia. This sea route was used for almost a thousand years without hindrance, moving at least one large shipload of spices every year. Spices brought over the sea route appear to have brought premium prices, being fresher and untainted by animal sweat. > Our spices, OOTH, are whisked from their plant-y birth to Mccormick's > bottelery, [or wherever] and thence to our shelves in mere weeks. Obviously, > what we use is likely to give a much bigger bang than what they had! > > Surely this must be a factor. > > Devra the Baker Not necessarily. Ground spices lose potency faster than whole spices. And it is often hard to tell how long a ground spice has been in distribution. I buy most of my spices from a health food store and difference in potency between those and the spices from the large distributors is truly noticeable. Bear Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 09:04:41 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Quantities of salt and spices used. Devra at aol.com wrote: > Our spices, OOTH, are whisked from their plant-y birth to Mccormick's > bottelery, [or wherever] and thence to our shelves in mere weeks. Obviously, > what we use is likely to give a much bigger bang than what they had! > > Surely this must be a factor. Possibly. On the other hand, we don't know how long they sit around in McCormick's warehouse before processing and canning, and, more or less conversely, it's hard to gauge the shelf life and adulteration level of spices sold already ground in the medieval marketplace. That being said, though, the three-year trip on the Silk Road probably didn't abuse whole spices any more than three years of storage in my overheated-through-lack-of-ventilation kitchen, and I have cinnamon sticks, nutmegs, cloves, peppercorns, cubebs, galingale, grains of paradise and long pepper (some several years old) and when I grind them they still have considerably more oomph than anything ground and tinned. I agree this must be a factor, but what the effect is is hard to say. There are good arguments to be made on both sides of this issue. Adamantius stgardr, East Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 21:17:07 -0800 From: Anne-Marie Rousseau <acrouss at gte.net> Subject: Re: SC - spice grinder At 06:54 PM 2/6/99 -0500, Seton1355 at aol.com wrote: >I've decided that I need a new spice grinder - a better spice grinder. The >one I'm using now is, in fact a coffee grinder and it doesn't grind my spices >fine enough. Can anyone suggest where I can get a good spice grinder? > >Phillipa Hi all from Anne-Marie I use a Braun "coffee mill" with great results. It comes highly recommended...that's what Tony Hill uses at Worldspice (except for the large batches of curry, etc, then he uses a bigger commercial one). If you dont overload it, and use a pulsing motion, I find it grinds as fine as storebought. - --AM Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 21:22:30 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - Medieval vs Renaissance Cooking > There seems to be a dramatic difference between the two -- grains or paradise, > cubebs, galengale and other popular medieval spices went out of style for > one thing. > > Does anyone know why this happened and approximately when? > > Renata The change appears coincidental with the opening of direct trade between Europe and the Far East. I believe Hourani speculates that the change in spices may have occurred because of problems along the normal spice routes in conjunction with above mentioned direct trade, which initially had a lower carrying capacity than the well established trade. Bear Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 08:25:07 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - pepper Black pepper (Piper nigrum) is of Javanese origin. It originally appears to have been imported into Europe by Romans trading in Egypt and the Levant. The trade continued after the fall of Rome and made pepper one of the major spices of medieval times. Black pepper is the entire fruit. White pepper is the fruit with the dark outer hull removed. I've found no date for the initial use of white pepper, but, IIRC, I have seen a late period recipe which calls for it. For authenticity, black pepper is probably the best call. The difference between white and black pepper is that white pepper has a milder taste The genus Piper also contains cubeb, betel, and kava. Bear Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 16:55:53 -0500 From: "Margo Farnsworth" <margokeiko at esslink.com> Subject: Re: SC - pepper I found this page on the web with their description of the plant: http://www.shadow.net/~heruka/seeds.html Piper Nigrum: "Black-pepper, Peppercorn-plant" P. Nigrum is the true source of Black pepper, and not to be confused with Capiscum (hot) peppers. Piper Nigrum is an extremely ornamental plant, perfect for the home and great in a greenhouse. This species appears like a vine with heart shaped leaves and produces a semi-epiphytic growth of roots from stem. Highly suggested...Very prolific and a rarity. Plant $ 12 >Is it possible to grow black pepper in a garden? >Or would it even be worth the effort? > >Fallon From the other info I found, the plant is subtropical or tropical, so I guess it would depend on where you live if you could grow it outside or not. Faoiltighearna Torvald's Hird Canton of Ravenhill, BBM, East Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 18:25:58 -0500 From: "Margo Farnsworth" <margokeiko at esslink.com> Subject: Re: SC - pepper >So out of curiosity then, how do the peppers grow on the plant and how are >they prepared for use? A pretty decent picture can be found at: http://www.albion.edu/fac/biol/skean/pipenipg.htm From looking at this picture, I would assume the fruit is allowed to mature and then picked and dried. I have also seen in gourmet stores green peppercorns in brine, I assume these are picked and pickled while still fresh. Faoiltighearna Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 18:50:00 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - pepper The peppercorns are basically berries growing in a cluster from a central stem, like a little bunch of grapes, or perhaps like a blackberry. The berries are removed from the stem, and, as I recall, allowed to ferment somewhat, blackening the fruit layer of the berries. They are then dried. At some point in this process the fruit pulp layer is removed from some peppercorns, leaving only the pale seed, a.k.a. white peppercorns. Adamantius stgardr, East Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 00:04:04 -0000 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is> Subject: Re: SC - pepper Black pepper is the unripe fruit and is green before drying. White pepper is the seed of the ripe fruit (the fruit itself is red). For more info on pepper (and other spices), try this site (scroll down to the index and click on pepper): http://www-ang.kfunigraz.ac.at/~katzer/engl/index.html Nanna Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 20:51:46 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - Looking in Waverly Root's Food, the comment is made that Horace thought the perfect general seasoning was black salt and white pepper. Horace lived in the 1st Century BCE, so white pepper should be in period. Root does comment that green pepper was not known in the Occident before W.W.II. Bear Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 09:21:53 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - cumin > Does anyone know the difference between "cumin" and "black cumin" > Phillipa Cumin is Cuminum cyminum. Black cumin is Nigella sativa. The spice cumin is made from the fruit of the cumin. The spice black cumin is made from the seeds of the black cumin. Just to make matters fun, cumin is sometimes used to referred to black cumin. Bear Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 10:50:15 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - cumin The quick ref gives Nigella sativa as the answer. This apparently is the plant commonly identified by the name "black cumin." The site you quote is the only one to flatly contradict this usage and identify Cuminum nigrum exclusively as "black cumin." A quick check of Francesco Sirene's web site: http://www.silk.net/sirene/b.htm produces the information about the common usage and points out that while the seeds of Cuminum nigrum are smaller and darker than regular cumin, calling them black is stretching it. He also states the black cumins are also known as black caraway. So unless the recipe comes from the area which uses Cuminum nigrum, the odds are black cumin is Nigella sativa. Some other names for Nigella are nutmeg flower, love in the mist, fitch, and gith. I believe the last two names would be those most likely to appear in a medieval text. Bear Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 09:28:13 -0700 From: "David Dendy" <ddendy at silk.net> Subject: Re: SC - Bhuna Prawn and Puri ><< Also where would I get the dry-roasted spices from? Maybe dry roast > >them myself or are they obtainable like that I wonder? >> > >Most India type recipes (and other cuisines as well) specify that you roast >the spices before grinding or adding them. This is usually