spice-mixes-msg - 12/1/07 Period spice mixtures. Poudre Forte, Poudre Douce, Spice Poudre. NOTE: See also the files: spices-msg, cinnamon-msg, herbs-msg, merch-spices-msg, saffron-art, saffron-msg, capers-msg, lavender-msg, herb-uses-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 09:00:31 -0700 From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <acrouss at gte.net> Subject: SC poudre forte Re: SC - Spice cabinet-what do we stock? HI all from Anne-Marie: we are asked: > For those us who are new, what does go into poudre forte? Mine is a mix of my own devising, according to spices mentioned in the poudre fortes and spice mixes of le menagier (1390s Paris), Chiquart (1420 Savoy) and Taillevent (14th century French). Anne-Maries Poudre Forte... 1 1/2 T ground ginger 1/2 tsp grains of paradise, ground with a mortar and pestle 1 T ground cinnamon 1/2 tsp ground clove 1/.2 tsp fresh ground black pepper combine and store in an airtight container, away from heat and light. Its a very spicy mix...great in mushroom pasties, paste en pot du mouton, wardens in syrop, medieval pasta dishes, etc. by the way, you can mailorder this stuff ready made from Worldspice here in Seattle at hill at worldspice.com I'm famous! :) - --AM Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 14:16:35 -0600 (MDT) From: Mary Morman <memorman at oldcolo.com> Subject: Re: SC - Poudre Forte and Poudre Douce poudre douce is a "sweet powder" and is usually a mix of sweet spices such as sugar, cinnamon, and ginger. elaina Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 01:01:07 -0500 From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON) Subject: Re: SC - Poudre Forte and Poudre Douce Micaylah, Redon, Odile. Sabban, Francoise. & Serventi, Silvano. The Medieval Kitchen, Recipes from France and Italy. Translated, Edward Schneider, U of Chicago Press, Chicago & London, 1998. ISBN 0 226 70684 2. Fine Spice Mixture Take an onza of pepper and one of cinnamon and one of ginger, and half a quarter [onza] of cloves and a quarter of saffron. Fr 40. [from the Venic region but not necessarily from Venice] 2 rounded tablespoons freshly ground black pepper [16 g] 2 rounded tablespoons ground cinnamon [16 g] 2 rounded tablespoons ground ginger [16 g] 1 1/2 tablespoons saffron threads, loosely measured, crushed to a powder in a mortar or with your fingers [4 g] 3/4 teaspoon ground cloves [2 g] {Try this, but 1 1/2 T. doesn't equal a quarter of 2 T. in my math} Sweet Spice Mixture The best sweet spices you can make are good for lamprey in pastry and for other good freshwater fish cooked in a crust, and to make good brodetto and good sauces. Take a quarter of cloves and an onza of good ginger, and take an onza of fine cinnamon, and take the same quantity of leaf; and pound all these spices together as you like; if you want to make more, use the ingredients in the same proportions; this is wonderfully good. [Fr 40] They aren't sure that 'leaf' means bay leaf, but says use that until the Indian mint leaf related to patchouli is investigated. 2 rounded tablespoons ground ginger [16 g] 2 rounded tablespoons ground cinnamon [16 g] 2 heaping tablespoons powdered bay leaves, or dried, ground to a powder in a spice grinder to yield 2 heaping tablespoons [16 g] 1 1/2 teaspoons ground cloves Strong Black Spice Mixture Black strong spices to make sauces: take half a quarter of cloves and two onze of pepper, and take the same amount of lon pepper and two nutmegs; this will serve for all spices. [Fr 40] 1/4 Cup freshly ground black pepper [30 g] 1/4 cup ground lon pepper (or additional black pepper) [30 g] 1/4 teaspoon ground cloves 1 whole nutmeg, grated 8. Libro di Cucina del Secolo XIV Fr Scully, Terence & D. Eleanor. Early French Cookery. U. of Michigan, 1995. Scully equates fine powder with sweet powder, and says it contains ginger, cinnamon, cloves, and grains of paradise. Their redaction is from the Menagier, and includes sugar. The quantities are not the same, from ms to ms. Experiment with your own version, he says. 3 tsp ground ginger 1 1/2 tbsp cinnamon 1 tsp grains of paradise 1 tsp ground cloves 2 tbsp sugar Platina discusses spices one by one; no combination. It seems to me I have seen nutmeg in a mixture, but that may be because I think of it as sweet, and like it best. I may have added it arbitrarily, in place of pepper or grains. Allison Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 21:38:05 -0400 From: Phil & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: SC - Pepperer's Guild Susan Browning wrote: > Greetings the list! My name is Elenor d'Aubrecicourt. I have been lurking > on the list for about a year now. I was looking at the Pepperer's Guild > site, and have a question about the poudre forte. Actually, I have > questions about forte and dolce. What the different members of the list use > for forte and dolce? Does everybody make their own? Or would the PG's > poudre be a good choice? Many thanks. The PG's might be an adequate choice, depending on how fresh it is. It struck me as having an awful lot of ingredients, which would have the advantage of making for a more consistent-seeming product from batch to batch if one ingredient was unavailable, which would be more of a problem is the powder called for, say, three or four spices. I seem to recall this one called for maybe seven or eight spices. As far as I know, we don't really know what was in most of the medieval pre-mixed spice powders, except for Hippocras powder (which I've occasionally used quite successfully in recipes calling for powder forte, BTW), and a fine spice powder recipe in Le Menagier de Paris. What we really have to go on, apart from a general knowledge of what Eastern spices were imported and used in the cookery of the medieval European nobs, is that powder forte should be, well, forte (strong), while powder douce should be douce (sweet), and powder blanche should be white, etc. Fine spice powder is, of course, fine ; ). So, we end up with the idea that, say, cloves, cinnamon, and maybe some nutmeg would be good in a powder douce, while pepper, galingale, grains of paradise, and cubeb might make a good powder forte. Since there are a limited number of things that would make a whitish combination, we assume things like Columbine ginger and refined sugar might be in blanche powder... . I believe you do find some recipes for some of these powders in the very tail end of period, at which point the mixtures are largely obsolete anyway, and there's no guarantee that what is in them reflects closely what was in them in earlier centuries. Adamantius Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:04:20 -0700 From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <acrouss at gte.net> Subject: Re: SC - Pepperer's Guild Hi all from Anne-Marie Elenor asks us: What the different members of the list use > for forte and dolce? Does everybody make their own? Or would the PG's > poudre be a good choice? Just like in the real middle ages :) many of us have our own special mixture of spices. Mine uses cinnamon, black pepper, clove, nutmeg and grains of paradise, as dictated in le Menagier and other French sources. Conveniently, Worldspice borrowed my recipe and sells it already mixed up. You can check them out at www.worldspice.com...they do mail order. Look for "Anne-Marie's Poudre Forte"! :D - --AM, who has something named after. A life long ambition realized! Madrone/ An Tir Seattle/WA Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:11:28 EST From: korrin.daardain at juno.com (Korrin S DaArdain) Subject: Re: SC - Still Looking for Powder Douce <mmartines at brighthorizons.com> writes: >I posted a question earlier this week asking what the ingredients in >the spice mixture powder douce are and haven't got any answers yet. > >Morgan MacBride Here are the references that I found in my collection. powder douce: 2 t sugar, 3/8 t cinnamon, 3/8 t ginger powder douce: 1 t sugar, 1/4 t mace, 1/4 t cinnamon power douce (by our interpretation, 4 parts sugar to 2 of cinnamon to 1 of ginger) "powder douce": 2 t sugar, 2 t cinnamon powder douce: 2 t sugar, 1 t cinnamon, 1/2 t ginger powder douce (2 parts ground nutmeg, 1 pt. ground fennel seed, and 1 pt. ground anise.) powder douce: 2 t sugar, 1 t cinnamon, 1/2 t ginger Powder douce: 1 cup sugar, 1 tsp. ground cloves, 2 tsp. ground cinnamon, 2 tsp. ground ginger, 1 Tbs. ground cubebs (opt.), 2 tsp. ground galingal (opt.), 1 Tbs. grains of Paradise (opt.) Korrin S. DaArdain Kitchen Steward of Household Port Karr Kingdom of An Tir in the Society for Creative Anachronism. Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 22:53:47 +1100 From: "Phillippa Venn-Brown" <p.vbrown at tsc.nsw.edu.au> Subject: Re: SC - Still Looking for Powder Douce From my research Powdre Douce can be a bit of a movable feast. It is a mixture of ground sweet spices, usually about 2 parts cinnamon:1 part nutmeg: 1/2 part ground cloves (depending on your taste): 1 part ground sugar. It can or not contain 1 part ground ginger/galangale. I tend to use this mixture a lot (mundanely and in SCA cooking) so make it to fill a 1quart preserving jar. Kept air tight the flavours meld and improve with age. Sometimes I decant it into small jars and add them to Christmas hampers for my cooking friends. Powdre Forte is a similar blend but has pepper and mace replacing the sugar and slightly more ginger. As I say, these amounts are personal preferences which I have found work well but some recipes in Two Fifteenth Century Cookbooks and Curye on English specify the mixtures and amounts for the powdres Douce and Forte. Filippa Ginevra Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 03:42:55 -0600 From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON) Subject: Re: SC - Still Looking for Powder Douce This answer certainly can't help with last Saturday, but last night I used a recipe from Medieval Kitchen, that gave a reference and recipe for powder douce as 2 rounded T. ground ginger, same of cinnamon, 2 heaping T. powdered bay leaves (that's a fun job, I don't think!) ground to a powder, 1 1/2 t. ground cloves. I made a proportionately smaller amount, and also added sugar to mine. Allison allilyn at juno.com, Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands, Pittsburgh, PA Kingdom of Aethelmearc Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 00:30:50 -0700 From: "David Dendy" <ddendy at silk.net> Subject: SC - Spice quantities for Helen My recipe for strong powder (poudre forte) calls for 1/8 oz cloves, 2 oz pepper, 2 oz long pepper, and 2 nutmegs (about 1/3 to 1/2 oz). My recipe for sweet powder (poudre douce) calls for 1/4 oz cloves, 1 oz ginger, 1 oz cinnamon, and 1 oz malabathron (substitute bay leaves and a little more cinnamon, or go to the Indian store and ask for "tejpat"). My recipe for fine powder (poudre fine) calls for 1 1/16 oz ginger, 1/4 oz cinnamon, 1/8 oz cloves, 1/8 oz cloves, 1/8 oz grains of paradise, and 1/4 oz lump sugar. However, I strongly suspect that the recipes were quite variable, so you can adjust them to what is available. Just make sure that strong spices like cloves and pepper predominate in the strong powder, and sweet spices like ginger and cinnamon in the sweet powder. The grains and galingale should be enough to give an exotic touch; substitute grains of paradise for some of the pepper, and galingale for some of the ginger. Francesco Sirene Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 22:00:01 -0700 From: "David Dendy" <ddendy at silk.net> Subject: Re: SC - Spice quantities for Helen >This is interesting. Do you have a period reference which shows long >pepper and black pepper being used in the same resipe? Thanks in advance. > >Ras Here you are, My Lord. LXXV. SPECIE NEGRE E FORTE PER ASSAY SAVORE. Specie negre e forte per fare savore; toy mezo quarto de garofali e do onze de pevere e toy arquanto pevere longo e do noce moscate e fa de tute specie. LXXV. A STRONG BLACK SPICE FOR MANY [?] SAUCES. A black strong for making sauces; take an eighth of an ounce of cloves, two ounces each of pepper and [?] long pepper, and two nutmegs, and make them all into spice. [trans. DD -- my Italian is not strong, but I assume that "arquanto" means something to the effect of "the same quantity"] Ludovico Frati, ed., Libro di Cucina del Secolo XIV, Livorno: Raffaello Giusti, Editore, 1899, p. 40. [a Venetian cookbook of the 14th century] Francesco Sirene David Dendy / ddendy at silk.net partner in Francesco Sirene, Spicer / sirene at silk.net Visit our Website at http://www.silk.net/sirene/ Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 00:04:44 -0700 From: swbro at mail.telis.org Subject: RE: SC - SPICES >cclark at vicon.net said: > >Snip > > POUDER-FORTE: I don't know that there is any period recipe > for this, >Snip The Viander de Tallievant sp)lists proportions of spices for Pouder-Forte, Pouder Douce and Spice Pouder. I tried his mixture for Pouder-Forte, it was very like pumpkin pie spice, but with a distinct after bite from the warmer spices. Quite good. Eleanor d'Aubrecicourt Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 09:26:42 -0400From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>Subject: Re: SC - Powder DouceSusan P Laing wrote:> What is the main difference between Powder forte & Powder douce? Is Powder> douce required in many period recipes??Umm, not to sound flippant, because I'm not (at least not now), butpowder douce is made from sweet spices and powder forte is made fromstrong spices. I've seen recipes for each in which some spices appear in both.Without recipes in front of me, and without caffeine singing through myveins (I like to do e-mail before everyone else wakes up) I can saytypical recipes might include cloves and cinnamon, possibly mace forpowder douce, and pepper, nutmeg, galingale, grains of paradise, etc.,for powder forte.I'd say that in the medieval English corpus of recipes there are atleast as many recipes calling for specific spices, such as poudre pepir,clowes, etc., as for powder douce, powder forte, and some others such asblanche powder, and fine powder. In other cases a recipe will simplycall for powder of sweet spices or strong spices.My suspicion is that while there are certainly formulae for producingthe mixes you mention, they might be regarded as something of aconvenience item, with some cooks not deigning to use them, just as mostIndian cooks wouldn't stoop to using curry powder. On the other hand,for large feast situations (in the middle ages, that is, not for ourstuff, necessarily) it might have been seen as eminently practical toeither purchase such mixtures in bulk or or make them up in bulk.I recall an occasion where I happened to have a fair amount, perhapsfour ounces, of leftover hippocras powder which I used to fill one ofthose industrial-strength flour-duster/salt-shaker thingies. The mixwent really well in the recipes calling for powder forte. Off the top ofmy head I think it contained pepper, grains of paradise, nutmeg,galingale, and cinnamon, and came from the hippocras recipe in LeMenagier de Paris.Adamantius Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 09:56:59 -0500 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net> Subject: Duke's powder (was Re: SC - saffron) And it came to pass on 31 Mar 00,, that Philip & Susan Troy wrote: Robin Carroll-Mann wrote: > > This is his comment at the end of a recipe for "Duke's powder", a spice > > mixture: > > Whoa... is this the same Duke's Powder that Le Menagier mentions as > pre-sweetened hippocras spice? > > Adamantius I don't know. Possibly. It certainly contains sugar, and appears just after de Nola's recipe for a hippocras spice mixture. I'm translating the 1529 edition of de Nola, BTW. There is a slightly different version of this mixture in the 1525 edition, plus a second recipe which does not appear in the 1529. Here are the recipes: Source: Roberto de Nola, _Libro de Cozina_ (Spanish, 1525) Translation: Brighid ni Chiarain (Robin Carroll-Mann) POLUORA DE DUQUE -- Duke's Powder Cinnamon, half an ounce; ginger, half an ounce; cloves, one eighth; sugar, one pound; all this well ground and strained through a hair sieve so that it should be quite delicate and subtle, or at least just like the one for the sauces. POLUORA DE DUQUE DE OTRA MANERA -- Duke's Powder in another manner White ginger, two ounces; galangal, one eighth of an ounce; cinnamon, one ounce; long pepper, one ounce; grains of paradise, one ounce; nutmeg, one ounce; fine sugar, one pound; all this should be well ground and strained through a delicate hair sieve. [The paragraph on weighing spices follows] Source: Ruperto de Nola, _Libro de Guisados_ (Spanish, 1529) Translation: Brighid ni Chiarain (Robin Carroll-Mann) POLVORA DE DUQUE - Duke's Powder Half an ounce of cinnamon; an eighth of cloves; and for the lords cast in nothing but cinnamon, and a pound of sugar; if you wish to make it sharp in flavor and [good] for pains in the stomach, cast in a little ginger. And the weights of the spices in the apothecary shops are in this manner: one pound is twelve ounces; one ounce, eight drachmas; one drachma, three scruples: another way that you can more clearly understand this: a drachma weights three dineros; a scruple is the weight of one dinero; and a scruple is twenty grains of wheat. - - - - How do those compare to the Menagier's recipe? Or doesn't he give one? (I have a copy somewhere, but don't want to hunt through an unindexed book before I finish my second cup of coffee.) Lady Brighid ni Chiarain Settmour Swamp, East (NJ) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:23:08 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> Subject: Re: Duke's powder (was Re: SC - saffron) Robin Carroll-Mann wrote: > How do those compare to the Menagier's recipe? Or doesn't he give one? (I have > a copy somewhere, but don't want to hunt through an unindexed book before I > finish my second cup of coffee.) Well, here's Le Menagier's recipe, probably the Powers translation, courtesy of His Grace Cariadoc: > Hippocras > > Goodman p. 299/28 > > To make powdered hippocras, take a quarter of very fine cinnamon selected by > tasting it, and half a quarter of fine flour of cinnamon, an ounce of selected > string ginger, fine and white, and an ounce of grain of Paradise, a sixth of > nutmegs and galingale together, and bray them all together. And when you > would make your hippocras, take a good half ounce of this powder and two > quarters of sugar and mix them with a quart of wine, by Paris measure. And > note that the powder and the sugar mixed together is the Duke's powder. Adamantius <See other hippocras recipes in the spiced-wine-msg file - Stefan> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 10:53:30 -0500 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net> Subject: Re: Duke's powder (was Re: SC - saffron) And it came to pass on 31 Mar 00,, that Philip & Susan Troy wrote: > Well, here's Le Menagier's recipe, probably the Powers translation, > courtesy of His Grace Cariadoc: > > > Hippocras > > > > Goodman p. 299/28 > > > > To make powdered hippocras, take a quarter of very fine cinnamon > > selected by tasting it, and half a quarter of fine flour of cinnamon, an > > ounce of selected string ginger, fine and white, and an ounce of grain > > of Paradise, a sixth of nutmegs and galingale together, and bray them > > all together. And when you would make your hippocras, take a good half > > ounce of this powder and two quarters of sugar and mix them with a quart > > of wine, by Paris measure. And note that the powder and the sugar mixed > > together is the Duke's powder. > > Adamantius Hmmm.... the spice combination (though not the exact proportions) looks a lot like the 1525 version of "Duke's powder in another manner". Interesting. I imagine these spice mixtures for wine were a lot like Indian garam masala mixtures today -- a basic similarity in contents, and a *lot* of variations. I noticed something else in the above recipe, though. The "flour of cinnamon" made my ears prick up, because I remember something I read on Francesco Sirene's web page. He sells cassia buds, which he says are called "flor de canel" in period recipes. This, he says, is often mistranslated "flour of cinnamon" or "flower of cinnamon" (ie., the best). The tipoff is if it appears in the same recipe as canel, cinnamon. Francesco? Cariadoc? Someone want to comment on this? Lady Brighid ni Chiarain Settmour Swamp, East (NJ) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 01:00:24 -0000 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is> Subject: SC - Ras al Hanout Stefan asked: >What is Ras al Hanout? A North African spice mixture - there are different Moroccan, Algerian and Tunisian versions, and many different variations within each country, as each spice shop generally has its own versions, which often include over 20 different spices and flavourings - the main ingredients are usually cardamom, pepper, ginger, nutmeg, coriander seeds, cumin seeds, turmeric and cinnamon, and also frequently cloves, cayenne pepper, oregano, rose petals or rosebuds. And lots of other stuff; it is said that some Moroccan mixtures include Spanish fly and other rather dubious stuff. Nanna From: rcmann4 at earthlink.net To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 06:01:44 -0400 Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] 'powders' - recipes please On 2 Jun 01,, Christina van Tets wrote: > Can anyone help me with recipes for Poudre de Duc or Lombard Powder? I have > references to these in the van der Noot text, but no recipe is > given. If there is more than one recipe, I would prefer the one > closest to 1514 and/or Brussels. I know of a couple of recipes for "Duke's Powder" (which some authorities believe is a mistranslation of Poudre Douce -- "Sweet Powder"). One is in the Menagier of Paris, c. 1393: <http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Cookbooks/Menagier/Menagier.html# OTHER ODDS AND ENDS> "HIPPOCRAS. To make powdered hippocras, take a quarter-ounce of very fine cinnamon, hand-picked by tasting it, an ounce of very fine meche ginger and an ounce of grains of paradise, a sixth of an ounce of nutmeg and galingale together, and pound it all together. And when you want to make hippocras, take a good half-ounce or more of this powder and two quarter-ounces of sugar, and mix them together, and a quart of wine as measured in Paris. And note that the powder and the sugar mixed together make "duke's powder". And here are two versions from the 1525 edition of Nola: POLUORA DE DUQUE -- Duke's Powder Cinnamon, half an ounce; ginger, half an ounce; cloves, one eighth; sugar, one pound; all this well ground and strained through a hair sieve so that it should be quite delicate and subtle, or at least just like the one for the sauces. POLUORA DE DUQUE DE OTRA MANERA Duke's Powder in another manner White ginger, two ounces; galangal, one eighth of an ounce; cinnamon, one ounce; long pepper, one ounce; grains of paradise, one ounce; nutmeg, one ounce; fine sugar, one pound; all this should be well ground and strained through a delicate hair sieve. And from the 1529 edition of Nola: POLVORA DE DUQUE - Duke's Powder Half an ounce of cinnamon; an eighth of cloves; and for the lords cast in nothing but cinnamon, and a pound of sugar; if you wish to make it sharp in flavor and [good] for pains in the stomach, cast in a little ginger. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain Settmour Swamp, East (NJ) From: "Olwen the Odd" <olwentheodd at hotmail.com> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] hair sieve Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 13:21:35 -0000 Poluora De Duque - Dukes Powder Cinnamon, half an ounce; ginger, half and ounce; cloves, on eighth; sugar, one pound; all this well ground and strained thrugh a hair sieve so that it should be quite delicate and subtle, or at least just like the one for the sauces. And there is this from Digby; White metheglin of my Lady Hungerford: <snip - see meads-msg> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Recipes from The Closet of the Eminently Learned Sir Kenelme Digbie Kt Opened: Whereby is Discovered Several ways for making of Metheglin, Sider, Cherry-Wine, &c. together with Excellent Directions for Cookery: As also for Preserving, Conserving, Candying, &c. First edition, London, 1669. Transcribed by Joyce Miller <jmiller at genome.wi.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 01:57:55 -0700 To: SCA-Cooks maillist <SCA-Cooks at ansteorra.org> From: James Prescott <prescotj at telusplanet.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Finding Recipes for spices At 23:50 -0500 2001-06-10, Stefan li Rous wrote: > Thorvald said: > > If 'poudre forte' is the same as 'spice powder', which is my belief, > then ..." > > Since there were a variety of spice mixtures, upon what do you base > this comment that 'poudre forte' is the spice mixture meant by 'spice > powder'? Since I formed that belief back in 1987, I'm going to have to try to recreate at least some of the logic. 1) In Hieatt and Butler _Curye on Inglysch_ page 208 they list 'powdour marchant', 'powdour douce', and 'powdour fort'. For the latter they say "strong mixture of ground spices, generally including pepper and/or cloves; we have not found a recipe, but suggested substitutions, and the name, make its nature clear." The recipe quoted by Pichon and Vicaire page 26 for 'Spice powder' includes ginger, pepper, long pepper, and cloves; two ingredients of middling strength (galingale and grains of paradise); and two milder ingredients. This sounds like a recipe for a definitely 'strong powder'. "Forme of Cury" (part IV in _Curye on Inglysch_) has frequent mentions of 'powdour douce' and 'powdour fort'. In Viandier there is no use of 'powdour douce', so one is led to wonder if any of the powders that _are_ used in Viandier correspond in any way to the 'powdour fort' of Forme of Cury. We'll ask this question again in item 2. 2) Sass _To the King's Taste_ page 23 distinguishes between 'whyte pouder', 'pouder fort', and 'pouder douce'. For 'pouder fort' they suggest "ginger or a blend of cinnamon and mace" (contrast Hieatt and Butler who say that it is "ginger, cinamon, and mace"). Viandier uses 'Fine Powder', 'Spice Powder', and 'White Powder'. Spice Powder is used exclusively in the first part of Viandier, and Fine Powder exclusively in the second part (with White Powder listed as an alternative, and only in a couple of places). This suggests that the name and exact composition may have changed between the two parts, but that they may be approximate synonyms. With ginger and cloves as two of the ingredients (Menagier) Fine Powder would have been somewhat strong, though it also contained some sugar. This would be consistent with the observation by Hieatt and Butler that spicing in the English recipes became sweeter as time progressed. With 'Sweet Powder' not used in Viandier, though known in Menagier; and with Fine and Spice powders at least occupying the same culinary ecological niche even if Fine is not the lineal descendant of Spice; and with 'powdour fort' being prominent in Forme of Cury (see item 1 above); we are tempted to speculate that Fine/Spice Powder corresponds to 'pouder fort'. That would avoid having four distinct spice mixtures (by Occam's Razor). Scully (E&T) in _Early French Cookery_ page 54-55 call it "Fine Powder", "Fine Spice Powder", and "Spice Powder" without distinction. 3) Rather than being merely tempted to speculate, I go further and conclude that in all likelihood "Fine Powder" and "Spice Powder" from Viandier, and "Strong Powder" from other sources, are either the 'same' mixture or at least occupy the same culinary ecological niche. Since the ingredients vary widely this is as illuminating (or otherwise) as noting that 'curry powder' is the same thing the whole world over. Every single curry powder is different, yet when viewed in a global light there is no difference among them. In the same way every strong powder was the same, yet different. Since the Fine and Spice powders from Viandier and Menagier do contain a predominance of 'strong' spices I find it simplest to conclude that they are synonyms for Strong powder. Thorvald Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 06:50:20 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Finding Recipes for spices James Prescott wrote: > 3) > > Rather than being merely tempted to speculate, I go further > and conclude that in all likelihood "Fine Powder" and "Spice > Powder" from Viandier, and "Strong Powder" from other sources, > are either the 'same' mixture or at least occupy the same > culinary ecological niche. Nah, no speculation here ; ) . I do suspect that in the latter instance, though, you're right. My own feeling is that there's some rather strained mathematical proofing going on in this discussion, and that the bottom line will end up with a bunch of medieval cooks and scribes who want us to put a nice mix of some ground spices in or on the dish. > Since the ingredients vary widely this is as illuminating (or > otherwise) as noting that 'curry powder' is the same thing the > whole world over. Every single curry powder is different, yet > when viewed in a global light there is no difference among them. I dunno, I never really thought of it that way. You don't consider the curry powder to be somewhat defined by its applications? Yeah, they're spice mixtures, and yes, they're even composed somewhat similarly, but don't you see a difference between, say, Madras and West Indian curry blends? Now that I think of it, considering that they're all basically English inventions anyway, there may be something in what you say. > In the same way every strong powder was the same, yet different. > Since the Fine and Spice powders from Viandier and Menagier do > contain a predominance of 'strong' spices I find it simplest to > conclude that they are synonyms for Strong powder. Simplest, yes, but I think perhaps you're taking the logic too far. When a recipe calls for powder douce, say, I expect a powdered mix of sweet spices is indicated, and could be bought preground, mixed by the spicer, or perhaps even mixed in the kitchen from available supplies. For strong spices, the same thing. Buy a strong spice blend, order it specially or make it from another cook's (or your own) formula, or just use whatever strong spices you have on hand for the purpose. Or, to put it another way, even if, on a case-by-case basis, the exact formulas (if any) of powder douce, powder forte, fine powder, etc., happen occasionally to intersect, I think it is more a matter of discretionary coincidence than any provable state of sameness. It's possible to agonize about this stuff too much... Adamantius From: rcmann4 at earthlink.net To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 23:28:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] lombard powder On 30 Jun 01,, Christina van Tets wrote: > Does > anyone have a recipe for Lombard Powder, the other one I need for the text I > am working on? It appears to be unknown. Constance Hieatt in _An Ordinance of Pottage_ lists several 15th century recipes that call for "Poudyr Lombard". She says that it "was a commericially sold mixed spice powder, but unfortunately it does not seem possible to guess at its composition." Brighid ni Chiarain Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom mka Robin Carroll-Mann *** rcmann4 at earthlink.net From: "Vincent Cuenca" <bootkiller at hotmail.com> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 23:00:02 +0000 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Glossary >Duke's Powder == Okay, this one I know. A spice mixture, featuring mainly sugar. From de Nola (1529 edition): Polvora Duque (Duke's Powder) Cinnamon half an ounce; cloves half a quarter; and for lords only add cinnamon, and a pound of sugar; if you wish it to have a sharp taste and make it good for passions of the stomach add a little ginger. I think it may also be in Llibre de Sent Sovi. Vicente From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 19:59:05 -0500 Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Glossary On 9 Nov 2001, at 23:00, Vincent Cuenca wrote: > >Duke's Powder ==== > > Okay, this one I know. A spice mixture, featuring mainly sugar. From > de Nola (1529 edition): Polvora Duque (Duke's Powder) Cinnamon half an > ounce; cloves half a quarter; and for lords only add cinnamon, and a > pound of sugar; if you wish it to have a sharp taste and make it good > for passions of the stomach add a little ginger. > > I think it may also be in Llibre de Sent Sovi. Here are the footnotes I wrote to accompany my translation of the Duke's Powder recipe. (Cindy, feel free to incorporate them into your glossary.) Barbara Santich suggests that this recipe title is a misnomer, and an indication of Italian influence on Catalan cooking. A very similar blend of spices =AD minus the sugar -- is found in an anonymous Venetian cookbook of the late 15th century. It is called specie dolce, "sweet spices". Several recipes in that cookbook call for dishes to be topped with sugar and unspecified spices before serving. Santich theorizes that specie dolce was the spice blend which was sprinkled with the sugar. The Italian name specie dolce, "sweet spices", may have been mangled in translation to become the Catalan polvora de duch, "powder of the duke". The Libre del Coch has a second recipe for this spice mix, De altra polvora de duch, which contains 2 oz. ginger, 1/2 drachm galingale, 1 oz. cinnamon, 1 oz. long pepper, 1 oz. grains of paradise, 1 oz. nutmeg, 1/4 oz. fine sugar. The Libre de Sent Sovi gives yet another recipe: 1 pound sugar; 1/2 oz. cinnamon; 3/4 oz. ginger; 1/4 oz. total of cloves, nutmeg, galingale, and cardamon. Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 21:41:40 -0500 From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] online glossary Philip & Susan Troy wrote: > > Duke's Powder == > See Le Menagier's hippocras recipe: he says the spice mixture can be > mixed with sugar and added to wine, and that you can buy the spice > mixture already sweetened, which is the Duke's Powder. It's been > suggested that this is in fact a reference to Powder Douce, or Sweet > Powder (or perhaps simply a sweet powder bearing no relation to the > English spice mix by this name). HTH,> Adamantius -------------------------------------- Nicole Crosley-Holland in Living and Dining in Medieval Paris which is an examination of Le Menagier de Paris says that "pouldre de duc" "comes from the Catalan treatise Sent Sovi; polvora de duch, or powder of sweetness according to Thibaut- Comelade (262, 121) who gives the components: fine sugar, ginger, cinnamon, pepper, clove, mace, nutmeg and saffron. ...The Menagier probably heard of this powder when he served in Languedoc and transcribed as duc the sound duch." [pages159-160] Johnnae llyn Lewis Johnna Holloway From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 22:29:14 -0500 Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Glossary On 10 Nov 2001, at 12:01, Cindy M. Renfrow wrote: > >Barbara Santich suggests that this recipe title is a misnomer, and an > >indication of Italian influence on Catalan cooking. A very similar > >blend of spices - minus the sugar -- is found in an anonymous > >Venetian cookbook of the late 15th century. It is called specie > >dolce, "sweet spices". <snip> > > Then how would you account for Le menagier's recipe of 100 years > earlier calling for pouldre de duc? I took another look at the article. Santich's point is that the recipe in the 1529 Nola is closer to the Italian tradition than to its Catalan predecessors. She does not mean (and I hope I didn't imply) that the anonymous Venetian is the first appearance of this recipe. Santich goes on to discuss other similarities in Nola to Italian recipes. So, if I dare summarize her reasoning: this spice blend is similar to the Italian version; its name may be a corruption of the Italian name. Perhaps *all* such blends were originally "sweet powder", or perhaps there were two different blends (duc/dolce), each with its many variations. To confuse matters further, the Menagier's blend is for making Hypocras. Nola has a different blend entirely for that purpose, and uses "Duke's Powder" in cooking. A tangled matter, this. Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom From: "a5foil" <a5foil at ix.netcom.com> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Duke's powder Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 11:03:36 -0500 > > Lady Brighid's translation says: "and for the lords cast in nothing > > but cinnamon," > > What does the original say? > > "y para los senores, no se echa sino sola canela" This appears in the Logrono editions (Castillian translations), but not in the first edition of Nola (1520, published in Catalan). Neither recipe in the first edition gives an instruction like this, just the measure of the ingredients and brief instructions on mixing them up. So, this class distinction is something introduced by the Aragonese mayor of Logrono, in his translation. Where he got it, I don't know. I suspect the wide variation in recipes for this powder is at least as much a matter of preference as it is a matter of economics. I would caution against over-interpreting this through the filter of political power. Yes, it was conspicuous consumption, but I think it was food, first. For REALLY conspicuous consumption, look at the recipes for Fine Spice powder (Salsa ffina), which called for a half-pound of saffron in a pound of powder... The earliest reference to Duke's Powder I have found in the Iberian cuisine is the Barcelona copy of the Libre de Sent Sovi (Biblioteca Universitat de Barcelona MS 68, ca. 1450). It also gives no indication of a class distinction in the composition of the powder. That recipe follows. I am not as convinced as Dr. Santich that this powder is of Italian origin. The Aragonese/Catalan empire had tremendous influence on the Italian cuisine of the 15th century, and the culinary influences flowed both ways. The Italian influence may be over-rated, and as much a product of academic bias as of fact. "Si vols ffer polvora de duch que sa ffina se ffa axi per una liura Primerament tu pendras una liura de sucre blanch Canella mige hunsa que sia ffina Gingebre que sia bo un quart e mig Giroffle nous noscades garangal cardemom entre tot un quart E tot aso picaras E pessar ho as per sadas." Translation (the punctuation is mine): If you wish to make Duke's Powder that will be fine, it is made in this way for one pound. First you will take one pound of white sugar, Cinnamon half ounce that will be fine, Ginger that will be good one quarter [ounce] and a half [so, three quarters of an ounce], Cloves, nutmeg, galingale, cardamom between all one quarter [I interpret this as "of each" because a 16th of an ounce of any of these spices in a pound of powder would hardly be detectable and thus would serve neither palate nor politics]. And all this you will pound. And you have to pass it through [a] sieve. My recipe, using the proportions of the period measures by weight, and translated to modern volumetric form: 1/4 cup + 1-1/2 teaspoons turbinado sugar, ground fine 1-3/8 teaspoon ground Ceylon cinnamon 1 teaspoon ground ginger 1/4 teaspoon ground cloves 1 teaspoon ground nutmeg, preferably freshly grated 5/8 teaspoon ground galingale, or substitute 5/8 teaspoon ginger 2-1/4 teaspoons ground cardamom Grind the sugar very fine in a large mortar (it changes from light brown to white as you grind it). Mix with the other spices and pass the mixture through a fine sieve to break up any clumps of spice. Store in a sealed spice bottle. This makes about 1/3 cup, and fills a 4-oz. spice bottle. This recipe will appear in my booklet of recipes from the Sent Sovi, which, with luck, will be available by Twelfth Night. Regards, Thomas Longshanks Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 22:32:45 -0700 To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Powder Fort Personally, i haven't run across any information that would suggest the use of cardamom in poudre forte, although i'm sure it tastes good :-) ----- I have made "Good Powder" - i'm not sure how different "Good Powder" is from Poudre Forte... Anyone? Good Powder 1 TB ginger 1 TB cinnamon 1 TB cloves 1 TB mace 1-1/2 tsp. black pepper 1-1/2 tsp. grains of paradise Makes 3/8 cup, approx. This is sort of a weaselly recipe, since i used more or less equal quantities by volume of everything, but i like the taste. ----- I've also made "Strong Black Spice Powder", inspired by the Specia Negre e Forte per Assay Savore, from Libro di Cucina del Secolo XIV, posted by Francesco Sirene. There's a similar recipe in "The Medieval Kitchen". Lacking long pepper, i used 1/2 the quantity of cubebs and half the quantity of grains of paradise, not that they really taste like long pepper, but, well, they taste Medieval (ok, so i'm being a bit silly). Strong Black Spice Powder 1/4 oz ground cloves 2 whole nutmeg, ground 4 oz ground black pepper 2 oz cubebs, ground 2 oz grains of paradise, ground I gave bags of this to people as Twelfth Night gifts. Gee, I never asked what they did with it... Mine i use on cooked eggs mundanely, since i don't like plain black pepper. ------ Anahita Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:00:27 -0400 Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Powder Fort From: Daniel Myers <doc at medievalcookery.com> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org On Friday, June 13, 2003, at 11:05 AM, Leah A. Montgomery wrote: > Ok, what is powder fort, or poudre forte, or however you spell it? It's one of the more common spice mixtures used in England and France - powder forte (strong powder), powder douce (sweet powder), powder fine, powder blanc (white powder), etc.... So far, the only one that I've found strong documentation for is the powder fine. Source [Le Menagier de Paris, Janet Hinson (trans.)]: FINE POWDER of spices. Take an ounce and a drachma of white ginger, a quarter-ounce of hand-picked cinnamon, half a quarter-ounce each of grains and cloves, and a quarter-ounce of rock sugar, and grind to powder. - Doc -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edouard Halidai (Daniel Myers) http://www.medievalcookery.com/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 13:53:08 -0400 From: "Melanie Unruh-Bays" <maredudd at caerthe.org> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Powder Fort From: Linda Peterson <mirhaxa at morktorn.com> > On Fri, 13 Jun 2003, Daniel Myers wrote: >> Source [Le Menagier de Paris, Janet Hinson (trans.)]: FINE POWDER of >> spices. Take an ounce and a drachma of white ginger, a quarter-ounce of >> hand-picked cinnamon, half a quarter-ounce each of grains and cloves, >> and a quarter-ounce of rock sugar, and grind to powder. >> > Most of us probably assemble our powders from already ground spices. Do > you think grinding them all together would have an effect on the > flavor, more blending of essential oils or something? > > Mirhaxa > mirhaxa at morktorn.com I find that if I grind them together, they seem to work on one another, and I get a product that seems to (I haven't ground with a stopwatch in my hand) grind faster, and to become a more uniform m[e']lange. I don't notice a change in flavor. BTW, isn't there a reference or two to period poudre forte recipes in Odile Redon's _The Medieval Kitchen_? I'm at work, and can't check just now... Eirene Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 11:25:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Jill Koski <jillksk24 at yahoo.com> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: [Sca-cooks] poudre forte >Powder fort is a spice mixture mentioned in various period recipes; we have not yet been able to find a description of what spices it contains.< The Pepperer's Guild sells it at their site. The "Traveling Dysshes, etc" cookbook by Siobhan Medhbh O'Roarke and Cordelia Toser lists their combination as: 1/2 tsp fresh ginger 1/2 t fresh nutmeg 1/2 t mace powder 1 t finely ground black pepper 1/2 t ground grains of paradise 1/2 t cubeb, ground They also mention that after 6 months or so, it may need to be replaced or refreshed. Lady Johanna Skerrstrand Northshield Midrealm From: Jane Boyko <jboyko at magma.ca> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org, "Melanie Unruh-Bays" <maredudd at caerthe.org> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Powder Fort Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 09:11:43 -0400 > BTW, isn't there a reference or two to period poudre forte recipes in > Odile Redon's _The Medieval Kitchen_? I'm at work, and can't check just > now... > > Eirene Odile does indeed have some of the spice mixture recipes: Fine spice and sweet spice mixture and one for hypocras. (pages 220-222) No Powder fort though. Marina From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] poudre forte Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 20:39:15 -0500 > I have read this thread for some time, but still have a basic question: > What does one DO with poudre forte? > Mike Acord There are a number of recipes which call for it. It is used in Medieval cooking approximately in the same way bell peppers and chile peppers are used today to provide a hot, pungent flavor. Bear Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 08:47:24 -0400 (EDT) From: <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Powder Fort >> Source [Le Menagier de Paris, Janet Hinson (trans.)]: FINE POWDER of >> spices. Take an ounce and a drachma of white ginger, a quarter-ounce of >> hand-picked cinnamon, half a quarter-ounce each of grains and cloves, >> and a quarter-ounce of rock sugar, and grind to powder. >> > Most of us probably assemble our powders from already ground spices. Do > you think grinding them all together would have an effect on the flavor, > more blending of essential oils or something? It depens on the spice. For instance, ground cardamom has a very short shelf life (about a month to a month and a half, I've found, before it becomes mostly sawdusty rather than spice); I don't know that I've ever tried to store or use ground grains of paradise, but they might also have a short shelf life. Ginger has about a 6 month shelf life maximum. Nutmeg has NO shelf life and should be grated fresh every time you use it, and I feel the same way about using pre-ground pepper, though I don't know how long it takes to start fading. So, if you are starting with fresh, preground spices there wouldn't be as much difference than if you used, say, McCormick from your grocery store. Le Menagier wouldn't have bought preground spices if he could avoid it, because they are too easy to adulterate and he was, ahem, thrifty. The general concensus that I've seen, though, is that most people bought their powder forte and powder douce and so-on preground, just as we buy apple pie spice and Herbs de Provence. -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 14:55:18 +1000 From: Robyn.Hodgkin at affa.gov.au Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Spice Blends To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org The Alfarhaugr Publishing Society print of Le Viandier de Taillevent (translator James Prescott) has in it additional recipes. 222 is Spice powder, which says: "Grind ginger (4 parts), Cassia (3 1/2 parts) nutmeg (2 parts) pepper (1 1/2 parts), long pepper, cloves, grains of paradise and galingale (1 part each) (A recipe quoted by Pichon et al p26)" Kiriel Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:20:17 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger <mooncat at in-tch.com> Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Ras el Haout To: Christine Seelye-King <kingstaste at mindspring.com>, "SCA Cooks' Lis" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> It's one of those amorphous blends like "curry." I actually used google to try and find some recipes. Ingredients varied quite a bit. A far number included roses, or turmeric, and then there were the weird ones that included things like spanish fly (!) So I made myself a list of the most commonly repeated spices and worked from there--at the time, I had a lot of lovely spices in my cupboard but was trying to cut down on some stuff because I was getting ready to move. A couple of the recipes mentioned doing the blend as whole spices, and then roasting/grinding as needed, but I was after a powdered blend, so that's what I did. I used roughlyequal portions, I think, of most of the spices, with the exception of the saffron (better part of one little package, which happened to be what I had in the house) and cayenne (done at about a quarter the amount of the others, because of its potency). IIR, I included the following spices, in no particular order: Cinnamon (ceylon) Ginger Galingale Mace Nutmeg Cloves (a little light on this one, too) Cardamom (green, decorticated) Black peppercorns White peppercorns Long pepper (only a little) Cubeb berriesGrains of Paradise Coriander Cumin Cayenne Saffron I think there were a few others, too (think I had 20 when I was done), but those are the main ones. I ended up with a LOT of the stuff, which I was making to fill spice bottles for an event Their Majestie were going to. You can actually buy it online, Christine (at least, I saw websites that sold it), but I got the impression it was like a good curry blend--better made fresh, 'cuz goodness only knows how long the powdered stuff had been sitting around. Oryou could send me your addy off-list, and I could send you a little baggie of it. I'll try to find my links to the websites I found (think they're on my computer at work), and hopefully post them soon. They're interesting from the ethnic/foodie perspectie, even if not catering to pre-17th c. European food. --maire Christine Seelye-King wrote: > I'll contributed spiced, glazed almonds. I was playing around this summer, > trying to come up with fun little food things for Their Majesties, and > had the odd idea to add Ras el Hanout (a non-rose variety) to the sugar > instead of cinnamon. Yummmmmm. Spicey-warm (from the things like > cinnamon and galingale and cardamom and ginger and long pepper and two > kinds of pepper-pepper), with just a hint ofkick. And they travel > nicely! > --maire, catching up on old emails.... > > So, do you have recipes or ingredients lists for your Ras el Hanout? (Rose > and/or non-rose variety?) I was working with a lamb recipe that called for > it, but I had other spices and didn't end up using any (didn't know exactly > what was in it). I did try it out with some mastic I got at Pennsic, boy, a > little of that goes a very long way. > Christianna Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:27:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Naquiba Katira al-Maghrebiyya <cynaguanswan at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: Ras el Haout To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Yes, it means something like "head of the shop" and indeed every spice shop has it's own blend. A couple of my spice books have recipes as do some of Paula Wolfert's cookbooks and they are all different. So, I suggest you go with the common ingredients and add/subtract increase/decrease as your own tastes direct you. Then you are "head" of your OWN shop!! I haven't done so myself yet, but I do have dried rose buds and some of the other more esoteric items (not the illegal ones like spanish fly (an aphrodisiac)) so I can try a known combination and then play from there. I know I have particular tastes when it comes to curry powders so I will probably tend to work around those ingredients. Katira Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:21:38 -0800 From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1 at comcast.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Poudre Fine / Fine Spices To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Most of what I'm finding in my search for recipes for my Italian feast are references to "good spices", "fine spices", "mild spices", etc. One definite recipe that specifies "fine spices", which could be another way of saying poudre fine is from de Nola: Libro de Cozina of Master Ruperto de Nola, translated by Vincent F. Cuenca p. 42: To Eat Figs in the French Style Take the sweetest black and white figs you can find; and remove the stems and wash them with good white wine that should be sweet, and when they are very clean, take a pot that should be a bit large and made of clay, with a flat bottom, and put them in and stir them around a little bit and then put this pot on the coals, well covered so that it stews there, and when they are stewed, and have soaked up into themselves all the moisture from the wine, stir them a little; and scatter fine spices over them; and stir them again so that they incorporate the spices and then eat this dish, and it is a remarkable thing, and should be eaten at the beginning of the meal. and this recipe from the same source for poudre fines...Jadwiga's Web page had this listed along with her redaction: *Poudre Fines: Spices for Common Sauce (De Nola) Three parts cinnamon, two parts cloves, one part ginger, one part pepper, and a little dry coriander, well-ground, and a little saffron if you wish; let everything be well-ground and sifted. 3 tbsp cinnamon 2 tbsp ground cloves 1 tbsp ground ginger 1 tbsp ground pepper 1 pinch coriander 1 pinch saffron, ground Mix together. Kiri Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:40:04 -0500 From: "a5foil" <a5foil at ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Poudre Fine / Fine Spices To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> In the Barcelona manuscript of "Libre de Sent Sovi" there are two spice powders: Salsa Ffina and Polvora de Duch. If you need particulars let me know. I have junicode transcriptions including the scribal abbreviations, translations, and redactions for both. Cynara Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 23:01:17 -0500 From: Daniel Myers <edouard at medievalcookery.com> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Poudre Fine / Fine Spices To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> On Feb 28, 2004, at 1:43 AM, david friedman wrote: > Anahita wrote: >> I am certainly not asking people to do my research for me, but i >> would appreciate it if people remember where there are references to >> poudre fine / pouldre fine / fine spice powder / fine spices, please >> let me know, i.e., book titles. > > Le Menagier de Paris has a recipe, with quantites if I remember > correctly, for fine spice powder. Here ya go... Powder Fine 1 1/2 Tbsp. cinnamon (canelle) 1 tsp. cloves 3 Tbsp. ginger 1 tsp. grains of paradise 2 Tbsp. sugar Source [Le Menagier de Paris, Janet Hinson (trans.)]: FINE POWDER of spices. Take an ounce and a drachma of white ginger, a quarter-ounce of hand-picked cinnamon, half a quarter-ounce each of grains and cloves, and a quarter-ounce of rock sugar, and grind to powder. - Doc -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edouard Halidai (Daniel Myers) http://www.medievalcookery.com/ Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 15:19:56 -0700 From: James Prescott <prescotj at telusplanet.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Le Viandier Spice uestion To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> > So what is Picon? Is this referring to the Picon edition of Le > Menagier? Isthere a Picon edition of Taillevent? Or a Picon > article published elsewhere? "Pichon": there's clearly a typo in the Florilegium, is the 1893 French transcription of several of the MSs. Here's the citation. Taillevent. Le Viandier. Published as L Viandier de Guillaume Tirel dit Taillevent edited by J. Pichon and G. Vicaire 1892. Second edition 1893. Third edition edited by S. Martinet. Slatkine Reprints. Geneva. 1967. > Does anyone have this resource in its original form? I would like > t include it in my "Fine Spice" documentation, but i'd like to > verify the source. Somewhere I have my research photocopies of Pichon & Vicaire, and could type in the French original. Just not immediately. My translation reads: 222. Spice Powder. Gind ginger (4 parts), cassia (3 1/2 parts), nutmeg (2 parts), pepper (1 1/2 parts), long pepper, cloves, grains of paradise and galingale (1 part each). (A recipe quoted by Pichon et al., p. 26.) A citation for the translation would read: Tirel, Guillume. <i>Le Viandier de Taillevent:</i> c. 1395. Trans. James Prescott. 2nd ed. Eugene: Alfarhaugr Publishing Society, 1989. I hope this helps. If you need the French original typed in, including whatever Pichon & Vicaire say about where it came from, let me know. Thorvald Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:33:25 -0700 From: James Prescott <prescotj at telusplanet.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Le Viandier Spice Question To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> At 17:35 -0500 2004-03-03, a5foil wrote: > Well, this whole thing about the spice blends has me curious, so I > would be interested in the original, when you get a chance. > > Cynara > >> Thorvald scripsit: >> Somewhere I have my research photocopies of Pichon & Vicaire, and >> could type in the French original. Just not immediately. The footnote is to Pichon & Vicaire's version of the Bibliothque Nationale MS of Viandier. The text being footnoted on page 26 reads: "BRESME. Soit cuite en eaue, mengi la saulce vert, en rost au verjus, ou en potaige poudre de fine poudre d'espices(6), au sel menu." The footnote reads: (6) Taillevent parle souvent de la poudre d'pices mais sans dire de quelles pices se composoit cette poudre. Le <i>Thrs. de sant.</i>, p. 395, donne la composition de plusieurs poudres, suivant qu'elles doivent servir l'assaisonnement de tel ou tel mets. Voice de quoi se composoit la poudre en usage pour les potages et les sauces: "Gingembre, quatre onces; canelle, trois onces et demie; poivre rond, une once et demie; poivre long, une once; muscade, deux onces; clous de girofle, une once; graine de paradis, garingal, de chacun une once." L'auteur ajoute: "Toutes ces pouldres se gardent un mois, voire quarante jours sans se gaster. On les doit tenir en des sacs de cuir, pour ne s'esventer, ne l'estans ja que trop par la longue traite de leur apport. Car on compte depuis l'Espagne jusques a Calicuth o on dbite le poivre et le gingembre quatre mille lieus par mer, & de l jusques aux isles Moluques & autres qui n'en sont fort esloignes, rapportans le girofle et la muscade, deus mille lieus." NOTE: "Thrs. de sant." is Thrsor de sant, 1607 edition. Thorvald Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2004 13:03:31 -0500 From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] e Viandier Spice Question To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> This same recipe appears in Barbara Wheaton's Savoring the Past he French Kitchen and Table from 1300 to 1789. See pages 249-250. She includes her modern version there as well. Johnnae James Prescott wrote: > The footnote is to Pichon & Vicaire's version of the Bibliothque > NationaleMS of Viandier. > > The text being footnoted on page 26 reads: > > "BRESME. Soit cuite en eaue, mengi la saulce vert, en rost au > verjus, ou en potaige poudre de fine poudre d'espices(6), au sel > menu." > snipped > > NOTE: "Thrs. de sant." is Thrsr de sant, 1607 edition. > > Thorvald Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2004 12:20:44 -0700 From: James Prescott <prescotj at telusplanet.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Le Viandier Spice Question To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at asteorra.org> > I really really really appreciate receiving the original French. > Unfortunately, diacritical marks don't come through in e-mail very > well. Sorry for their failure to arrive in readable form. Perhaps I should have sent them as HTML. >> Calicuth o > (in this case it's the second word - i see "o [carat]" The word is 'o' followed by 'u grave'. >> mille lieus." > (in this case see "lieu[capital I circumflex]s") The second last letter is 'e umlaut' (yes, really). Thorvald Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2004 14:10:10 -0800 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: [Sca-cooks] Le Menagier Fine Powder To: SCA-Cooks <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Herein lies a mystery - at least to me. The Pouldre Fine recipe as reproduced in Scully and Scully, "Early French Cookery" on page 54 reads as follows Pouldre Fine (Menagier de Paris, p. 247/Sec. 314) (where through out Scully2, the page no. refers to Vol. II of the Pichon ed.; and Sec no. to the same material in the Georgine E. Brereton and Janet M. Ferrier, pp. 191-283) Prenez gingembre blanc 1 (degree sign) .3, canelle triee 3 (degree sign), giroffle et graine de chascun demy quart d'once, et de succre en pierre 3 (degree sign), et faicts pouldre. If i assume the degree sign represents an ounce, my translation is: Take white ginger 1 ounce .3, selected cinnamon 3 ounces, cloves and grains [of paradise] of each half quarter of an ounce, and of rock sugar 3 ounces, and make powder. However, the Janet Hinson version, in Duke Cariadoc's collection and on the web at: http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Cookbooks/Menagier/ Menagier.html#OTHER%20ODDS%20AND%20ENDS which says it's from the same Pichon ed. says FINE POWDER of spices. Take (probably: Ed.) an ounce and a drachma of white ginger, (probably: Ed.) a quarter-ounce of hand-picked cinnamon, half a quarter-ounce each of grains and cloves, and (probably: Ed.) a quarter-ounce of rock sugar, and grind to powder. How did she get 1/4 ounce each for the cinnamon and the sugar? Anahita still puzzling over Fine Spices Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2004 00:29:14 -0500 From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Le Menagier Fine Powder To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> The Brereton/Ferrier version is found on page 270 under Miscellaneous Cooking Hints II v. 314. reads Pouldre fine. Prenez gingerbre blanc 1 (degree). 3, canelle triee 3 (degree), giroffle et graine de chascun demy quart d'once, et de succre en pierre 3 (degree). et faictes pouldre. I am using (degree) for the super-imposed degree sign that I am sure will not e-mail at all well. The note for this as found on page 329 states: Pouldre fine... et faictes pouldre The quantities prescribed here are difficult to interpret. The apothecary's sign 3 indicates a drachm 9cf. lines 29 and 30 where drame is spelt out), and I (degree) may be meant for one ounce. The sign 3 (degree), however, is baffling. B has replaced this by 4 (degree), presumably an abbreviation for 4 ounces. Pichon's suggestion (ii, 247 n.3) that 4 (degree) means un quarteron is weakened by the fact that the usual abbreviation is iiii (on ----written there as superscript). { I will note that what they reproduce in the text to the note looks like a funny bold face 3} I suspect that if my reading of the note is correct that there may be differences between versions of the manuscript. Eileen Power in The Goodman of Paris on page 298 gives this as: FINE [SPICE] POWDER. Take of white ginger an ounce and a dram, of selected cinnamon a quarter, of cloves and grain [of Paradise] each half a quarter of an ounce, and of lump sugar a quarter and reduce them to powder. I suspect Hinson stuck more closely to Power's version. I also have at hand: Le Mesnagier de Paris which is Brereton and Ferrier's edition of Le Menagier de Paris translated into modern French b