saffron-msg - 1/12/12 Types of saffron. period uses. NOTE: See also these files: saffron-art, spices-msg, garlic-msg, seeds-msg, herbs-msg, capers-msg, p-herbals-msg, rue-msg, spice-storage-msg, spice-mixes-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ To: Mark S. Harris From: Chris and Elisabeth Zakes Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 00:21:36 -0600 Subject: Re: Glasses At 11:58 PM 1/25/97 -0600, you wrote: >My first thought when I saw your comments on saffron was "Why >would someone need eye protection from saffron?". As in safety >goggles. But I imagine you are talking about doing something >minute with the saffron. Do you have seperate out the tiny >blossums from something else? > > Stefan li Rous No, it appears that bulk saffron can cause an allergic reaction. The rest of the section said: "If a man do but open and ransack a bag of one hundredweight or two hundredweight, as merchants do when they buy it, it will strike such an air into their heads which deal withal that for a time they shall be giddy and sick (I mean for two or three hours' space), their noses and eyes in like sort will yeild such plenty of rheumatic water that they shall be the better for it long after, especially their eyesight, which is wonderfully clarified by this means; howbeit, some merchants, not liking of this physic, muffle themselves as women do when they ride and put on spectacles set in leather, which doth in some measure (but not for altogether) put by the force thereof." -Tivar From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy M Renfrow) Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Pickled Lemons Date: 29 Jan 97 16:16:33 GMT markh at risc.sps.mot.com (Mark S. Harris) wrote: > > 7 T of Saffron is of course 7 Threads of real Saffron. > > I don't remember the conversion to artificial saffron. > > > > Steveg > > Huh??? There is artificial saffron? The real stuff is all I've ever > seen. You know the stuff that usually is in an envelope in the standard > sized jar and you get a few grams of instead of ounces. > > Perhaps the recipe should specify real or artificial saffron then. > Although I guess if you know that both types exist than you would > know which one is meant. > > So, does anyone have the standard conversion for this, if such a > standard exists? This still doesn't settle the question of how > many threads of saffron to use, although I'll probably try 7 > threads sometime. > > Stefan > -- > Ld. Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Ansteorra Hello! Yes, there is an "artificial", or rather a "substitute" saffron - the safflower, Carthamus tinctorius, was used in period as an adulterant for Crocus sativus. It gives the same color, but no flavor, & is available for about $2.00 per ounce. It is also called Mexican Saffron. BTW, 7 Tablespoons is not an unreasonable amount for a period recipe - the 14th century Le Menagier de Paris calls for the use of an ounce of saffron for a dinner party of 40 people. In 1597 Gerard wrote "common or best knowne Saffron groweth plentifully in Cambridge-shire, Saffron-Waldon, and other places thereabout, as corne in the fields." Hope this helps! Cindy Renfrow renfrow at skylands.net http://www.alcasoft.com/renfrow/ From: "Morgan E. Smith" Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Pickled Lemons Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 08:53:06 -0700 Organization: Calgary Free-Net The term "artificial saffron" struck me as weird too. There are two types of saffron that I am aware of: true saffron, which is very expensive in comparison with most other imported spices, and "American" saffron, which is fairly cheap by comparison. Both are "real" saffron (coming from a crocus plant) but the American variety is grown in larger quantity, and the plant yields more saffron threads than the imported variety. Morgan the Unknown From: harper at tribeca.ios.com.REMOVE.THIS.TO.REPLY (Robin Carroll-Mann) Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Pickled Lemons Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 01:43:48 GMT "Arthur A. Simon, Jr." wrote: >Alf Christophersen wrote: >> >> markh at risc.sps.mot.com (Mark S. Harris) wrote: >> >> >Huh??? There is artificial saffron? The real stuff is all I've ever >> >seen. You know the stuff that usually is in an envelope in the standard >> >sized jar and you get a few grams of instead of ounces. >Try about 100 milligrams (1/10 of a gram). >> >> Saffron is very often adulterated. Even buying it as threads isn't >> safe. It can be the more poisonnous autumn crocus which has been used >> several times due to a report I read once. >Interesting. The references I have state that the crocus that produces >saffron *is* the autumn-blooming "crocus officinalis". I am interested >also in the "poisonous" nature of saffron. I would guess that eating >crocus bulbs would certainly disagree with one, sooner or later, but >the stamens? According to _The Herb Book_ by John Lust, saffron, commonly known as autumn crocus or Spanish saffron, comes from the stigmas of crocus sativus. (Safflower, AKA American saffron or false saffron, is carthamus tinctorius.) Mr. Lust goes on to say that saffron contains a poison that acts on the kidneys and central nervous system. "10 to 12 grams is a fatal dose for human beings." >Art, curious. Harper % at % at % Robin Carroll-Mann harper at tribeca.ios.com From: alf.christophersen at basalmed.uio.no (Alf Christophersen) Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Pickled Lemons Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 19:59:38 GMT Organization: Dep. of Nutrition, University of Oslo jack at purr.demon.co.uk (Jack Campin) wrote: >"Morgan E. Smith" writes: >> There are two types of saffron that I am aware of: true saffron, which >> is very expensive in comparison with most other imported spices, and >> "American" saffron, which is fairly cheap by comparison. Both are "real" >> saffron (coming from a crocus plant) but the American variety is grown in >> larger quantity, and the plant yields more saffron threads than the >> imported variety. > >On my last visit to Turkey I bought a whole mass of saffron (about half a >pound, I think) at a remarkably low price compared with the Spanish stuff. >Was this likely to have been the "American" variety you're talking about? More likely the Persian Saffron as Mrs. Grieve call it. It was once tried to be introduced to Britain because it was much cheaper to grow and harvest, (a wild saffron variety), but the taste was inferior, so the market seemed to prefer the spanish variety. Btw. Mrs. Grieve says that Saffron Walden in UK has its name derived from the fact that they did grow saffron (Crocus sativa) in Britain for commercial purpose. Alf Christophersen alf.christophersen at basalmed.uio.no From: "Morgan E. Smith" Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Pickled Lemons Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 08:57:25 -0700 Organization: Calgary Free-Net American Saffron is a product of the safflower plant. I am not a botanist, so its relationship to the crocus (Spanish saffron) is unclear to me. I soak my saffron in a little lemon juice and hot water for about half an hour. The taste is not strong. I have used both American and Spanish varieties: I don't find a huge difference. A friend of mine (who was a botanist) said that the two types are very similar botanically. But I think it may be a cultural thing, and that modern North American taste-buds require more "oomph" to notice subtler variations. Morgan the Unknown From: L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt To: sca-cooks at eden.com Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 07:21:19 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: sca-cooks spices -Reply At 10:30 AM 4/10/97 -0500, Stefan li Rous wrote: >Apparently there are different saffrons available today. This came >up on the Rialto recently when someone gave a recipe that used 7 >tablespoons of saffron. Since I only knew of the Spanish saffron >this seemed like a small fortune to me. Although we never got an >answer from the original poster, some thought they must have been >speaking of substitute safron. I think in this case there may be an additional factor. The recipe (in answer to my post for a recipe for Pickled lemons on rec.food.historic, which carried over to rec.org.sca) was egyptian, and I fully believe that the pickling juice was meant to be used and re-used, and the pickled lemons (which were actually fermented lemons) were to be used very sparingly. Middle Eastern cultures use saffron so frequently in their cooking that they must have developed an economical source for it. Thus TBSP of saffrom may not be out of the question in this context. And, the original autor admitted she may have made a mistake. From: nweders at mail.utexas.edu (Nancy Wederstrandt) To: sca-cooks at eden.com Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 08:18:25 -0600 Subject: sca-cooks Re:substitutes for saffron Tumeric is often used as a cheap coloring agent to replace saffron. While the taste is nothing like saffron, it makes things yellow. (sometimes more than you want) You can die eggs with tumeric. It is a root that is dried and then ground. The plant looks similar to a ginger or cardamon plant. It is used in eastern (indian) cooking and in the west it is used in mustard and pickles, alot. Safflower is probably the closest of the substitutes. it is easy to grow and easy to save. I've grown saffron and safflower in Ansteorra with medium and good results, respectively. Probably you could mix the two and get a large quantity with a little aroma of saffron. On a side note. buddhist monks used saffron to dye the robes they wear. The yellow from saffron is water soluable and the red is extracted through alcohol. Offical documents used to be tied up with thin ribbons of saffron dyed red.... hence the term "red tape" It's from saffron ribbons. Clare R. St. John From: dragon7777 at juno.com (Susan A Allen) To: sca-cooks at eden.com Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 23:22:28 -0700 Subject: Re: sca-cooks spices -Reply On Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:30:41 -0500 JANINE BRANNON writes: >How about tumeric? It would give the color you need - but flavor? >Is tumeric period? Saffron flowers are used (in mexican cooking) to give the saffron color, tumeric is more greenish and very bitter if too much is used. Susan From: James and/or Nancy Gilly Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:15:30 +0000 Subject: SC - Re: spices At 03:47 10-4-97 +0000, Stefan wrote: >Derdriu asks: > >> And, while we have spices and plants of the >>same name today as they did then, which ones are different? Are there any >>beyond Cinnamon/cassia and Cinnamon/ceylon, which, while sharing a name, >>are quite different in flavor? > >Apparently there are different saffrons available today. This came >up on the Rialto recently when someone gave a recipe that used 7 >tablespoons of saffron. Since I only knew of the Spanish saffron >this seemed like a small fortune to me. Although we never got an >answer from the original poster, some thought they must have been >speaking of substitute safron. For instance: >----- >Yes, there is an "artificial", or rather a "substitute" saffron - >the safflower, Carthamus tinctorius, was used in period as an adulterant >for Crocus sativus. It gives the same color, but no flavor, & is >available for about $2.00 per ounce. It is also called Mexican Saffron. > Cindy Renfrow >----- > >Any other examples? > > Stefan li Rous > markh at risc.sps.mot.com Quoting from the Penzeys catalogue (Summer 1996 - I know I have a more recent one, but gods only know where it is): "Kashmir saffron has long been known to saffron lovers as the world's premiere saffron, usually unavailable in this country. Long, moist, dark red strands. Superior quality. Spanish saffron is consistently good and available. 10% yellow threads. Spanish is usually less expensive than Kashmir, but with weather troubles the price has risen, making Kashmir a much better buy." Their prices then were: Kashmir: $6.95/1 g, $36.95/.25 oz Spanish: $5.95/1 g, $31.95/.25 oz Incidentally, they also offer both cassia (Chinese, Sumatran, or Vietnamese - - the latter at approximately double the cost of the other two) and cinnamon. Slainte - Alasdair mac Iain - ----------------------------- James and/or Nancy Gilly katiemorag at worldnet.att.net From: Philip & Susan Troy Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 11:19:58 -0400 Subject: Re: SC - coloring cheese? ND Wederstrandt wrote: > > I didn't think so either... I mean I knew they colored cheese but didn't > know everything they used... when I pulled the sope recipe this morning > from Good Huswife's Jewel(1596) I saw the note on a different page stuck in > the middle of how to preserve apples and what makes a good pig. It makes > sense since vast quantities of saffron were grown around Saffron-on-Waldon > (hence the name) I make soft cheese so next time I make some I'm going to > try it. I haven't tried marigolds either but will try a batch with that as > coloring. Does anyone else know what coloring agents were used? > > Clare St. John Well, various green leaves, primarily sage and parsley, are known to have added both flavor and color to soft cheeses eaten fairly fresh. This may have arisen as a side effect of using herbs to curdle the milk (sage and nettle tops seem to be the standard). Markham (Again! Oy! [Slaps forehead]) calls for saffron to be added to the peculiar mixture he says should be used to "run" your milk into curds. Another thing to consider is that for aged cheeses, they tend to become fairly yellowish-brown as they become drier, with the ratio of fat to total mass becoming higher. Just a side note on the whole Saffron Waldon issue. I remember reading somewhere that the idea of growing saffron crocuses in the area was something of a failed experiment. It was evidently done for a time, but there is some question as to how much impact the practice had on the trade in a spice that remained consistently one of the more expensive ones. One possibility has to do with fluctuating weather across Europe, and another has to do with the cost of labor required to turn crocuses into saffron. That, of course, has little to do with the point you were making... . Adamantius Date: 4 Aug 1997 12:40:00 -0700 From: "Marisa Herzog" Subject: SC - saffron substitute was-Adv right and I am not familiar enough with saffron to know what the lack of it will do to the recipe's flavor. I don't claim to be particularly experienced, and I haven't cooked much with saffron but: 1) most recipes don't seem to call for much (a couple or few threads), so you might be able to swing just spring for a single package of the stuff at some place like "Trader Joes" that has good groceries for less than bigger name chains. 2) my herb books say that calendula or marigold is a substitute, though I think this may just duplicate the nice color, I don't know if the flavors are comparable? - -brid Date: 5 Aug 1997 08:39:19 -0700 From: "Marisa Herzog" Subject: Re: SC - saffron substitute I just got a beautiful book called "Brother Cadfael's Garden" based on the mystery novels with the 12th Century monastic main character. It appears to be very good at researching the herbs and such used in this series of novels and cross referencing them against period sources. So far it has one of the most complete and accesible encyclopedias of herbs with pictures that I have found. Of course I forgot to bring it to work with me to get the names right, but under saffron it had 1) "true" saffron (the really expensive stuff) 2) another crocus used as a substitute and 3) "false" saffron, which wasn't a crocus and I didn't recognize the scientific name. - -brid Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:47:40 -0500 From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter) Subject: Re: SC - saffron substitute Hi, Katerine here. Juana Teresa asks whether saffron that is identified as "Spanish" is better than ordinary. Here's the best answer I can give. In modern use, saffron is the stamens of a crocus (I believe that the alternative crocus that can be used isn't any more, but I may be wrong). Safflower stamens are sometimes used as a substitute, and very occasionally sold under the name "saffron". The latter is a variety of fraud. "Spanish saffron" should be crocus stamens that were grown and harvested in Spain. While the Spanish climate seems to be good for saffron, I don't know that it's enough better than others to produce a noticeably different spice. It shouldn't be safflower -- but nothing labeled "saffron" should, and some things are. People who will lie about what it is, will also lie about what variety of what it is. A better protection than the label is knowing the provider. (Once you've worked with saffron for a while, you can tell it from safflower anyhow.) Cheers, - -- Katerine/Terry Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:21:22 -0500 From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter) Subject: Re: SC - question on grades of saffron (was re: advice) Hi, Katerine here. Kat asks how to tell saffron from safflower. The simple answer is that the threads don't really look alike; but you need to be used to looking at saffron threads to tell the difference. - -- Katerine/Terry Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 17:55:28 -0400 From: "Nick Sasso (fra niccolo)" Subject: Re: SC - question on grades of saffron (was re: advice) Terry Nutter wrote: > Hi, Katerine here. Kat asks how to tell saffron from safflower. The > simple answer is that the threads don't really look alike; but you need > to be used to looking at saffron threads to tell the difference. There is an explanation about the brands and where they come from at http://www.saffron.com/facts/saffron/ I found this page showing some basic facts about saffron. It is from a commercial source, so may be slanted in presentation. The facts seem reasonable from my lay observation. http://www.babysaffron.com/gis.htm fra niccolo Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 18:50:16 -0400 From: "Nick Sasso (fra niccolo)" Subject: SC - Saffron links, a plethora I promise, this is the last of the links I'm sending. I got excited about finding out about this subject. I think I'm off to the University library for some hard copy references to do my own work. http://www.frontierherb.com/spices/notes/spices.notes.no6.html http://www.veg.org/veg/Orgs/VegSocUK/Recipes/saffron.html http://www-bus.tp.ac.sg/salien.htm http://www.reidgroup.com/~dmg/faqs/spices/node50.html (check out what Mexican saffron is!!! "...the flower of Carthamus tinctorius L. which is an annual herb grown in the temperate regions of Central MÈxico. Its quality is quite inferior to real saffron but it has similar coloring properties. It is far cheaper. ) http://www.cuisinenet.com/glossary/saffron1.html niccolo Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:13:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Schuldenfrei Subject: Re: SC - Advice, please! Saffron is hard to find in a trustworthy source: I've found that Indian saffron is of uneven quality, Mexican saffron is reliably of low quality, and Spanish saffron is usually pretty good. NOTHING tastes like saffron. That's what is so cool about it. If you want the bright yellow color, you can use safflower or tumeric, but you get no flavor. Most recipes call for making a "tincture" of the saffron threads. I grind them with a touch of salt or sugar (depending upon whether the recipe calls for savory or sweet), steep them in some hot liquid (water or broth, again depending upon the recipe) and add the entire tincture after 5-10 minutes. Saffron makes a powerful yellow/orange color, and using the tincture keeps my foods from getting tiny yellow speckles where the thread fragments are, and it makes the flavor permeation uniform. Be wicked careful: the stain is permanent. Keep away from clothes, rubber, wood or other porous surfaces, unless you want them to always be orange. I rinse my mortar IMMEDIATELY after grinding saffron in it. A useful cheat is to use the bowl of a soup spoon, and use a teaspoon to grind the saffron threads. Stainless steel is resistant to the color. I usually make the tincture in a Pyrex measuring cup. Tibor Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:24:13 -0400 (EDT) From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Re: saffron << any idea how long this stuff lasts...I just found a small metal tin (Ehlers) that I bought God knows how long ago >> Smell it. If it smells like saffron it's good. Taste it . If it tastes like saffron it's good. Use it. If the results are saffron results/ It's good. :-) Ras Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 09:09:46 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: SC - saffron Here is a little history problem which I've come across -- when did saffron become part of the medieval cook's spice rack? Crocus sativus originates in India, was used by the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, and most of the people of the Middle East. It may have been carried into Western Europe by the Roman Legions, but it appears it was not cultivated or it died out. Saffron was brought into Spain by the Moslems and was cultivated. The Foodbook places this in the 8th Century. Trager contradicts himself in The Food Chronology by placing this in 961 C.E. According to Trager, the Spanish introduced saffron to Northern Italy in the 15th Century. This seems a little late to me. English cultivation of saffron begins with a single bulb smuggled out of North Africa (probably in the 14th Century. I'm considering this apocryphal until I have supporting evidence.) My personal speculation is the Moslems brought saffron to Spain and had it under cultivation by the end of the 9th Century. In the 10th Century, it was traded (free trade being a major occupation along the French-Spanish border to the dismay of centuries of governments) into France and spread across the Holy Roman Empire. It followed the Normans into Britain. Spanish saffron was probably supplemented by trade with the Middle East during the Crusades. Italy probably obtained saffron by trade, either with Spain of the Middle East. It may be that saffron cultivation was brought to Northern Italy by the Spanish in the 15th Century, but I expect that saffron had long been used in Italy before that time. The source materials I used don't provide much in the way of documentation, so chasing the facts down may prove interesting. Bear Sources: Day & Stuckey, The Spice Cookbook Giacosa, A Taste of Ancient Rome Tannahill, Food in History Trager, The Foodbook The Food Chronology Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 22:31:44 EST From: LrdRas Subject: Re: SC - saffron-VERY LONG From "FOOD" by Waverly Root. Source: The stigmas of Crocus sativus (cn. Autumn Crocus) 2.47 acres produces 110 lbs. (50 kg) of flowers. 100,00 flowers produce 11 lbs. (5 kg) fresh stigmas. 11lbs. (5 kg.) fresh stigmas dry down to 2.2 lbs. (1 kg) saffron 1 lb. saffron =300,000-400,000 stigmas M.. S. Atworth); 200,000+ stigmas (R. Hemphill); 50,000 stigmas (J. M. Jungfleisch); 45,0000 stigmas (L. Lagriffe); 85,000 flowers (elizabeth David); 75,000 flowers ( Snatha Rama Ran); "acres of plants to produce a small quantity" (Waverly Root). :-) The bulbs are replanted every 2 yrs. 1 grain (1/547th avoirdupois ounce) colors and flavors a dish for 4-6. Cultivated from early times ( Crete pre-2nd millenium B.C.E.) Grew wild in ancient Italy. Color> a symbol of royalty and taken over by the most refined prostitutes in history, the hetaerae. Although it grew wild in Italy , the Romans imported their saffron from Greece. Marco Polo did not report it in his travels to the Far East. Possibly introduced to China by the Mongols in the 13th century C.E. Disappeared from cookery for several centuries after the collapse of Rome because of the lack of cultural refine which at that time was restricted to the Arab world although it still grew wild in Italy and Greece. France regained saffron from the Moors when they were defeated at Poitiers in 732 .C.E. by Charles Martel. It was introduced to Spain, 200+ yers. later. During the time that the papcy was sitting in France (late 1300's) saffron was again reintroduced from Italy and was then extensively imported from the Middle East via the Crusades. during which time Venice had an official office of "Officer of Saffron". England knew saffron as a pharmaceuticalin the 10th century C.E. and in the 1300's tradition states that a stolen bulb was snuck into England from Tripoli by a pilgrim in his staff and cultivation began .. During certain periods of the MA and Renaissance a pouind of saffron would buy a horse. Germany probably began cultivating saffron in the 1400's chiefly for dyes. Paradoxically, the most expensive spice in the world plays a promonate role in the cuisine of the people most reputed for their simplicity- the Pennslyvania Dutch where it is found as the most abundantly mentioned spice after pepper in authentic recipes (e.g. Schwenkfelder Cake and in almost all ORIGINAL: chicken, noodle, soup sauce and pastry dishes. Ras Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 23:23:53 EST From: LrdRas Subject: Re: SC - saffron-growing << In the mean time, what can you tell me about growing saffron >> From Fieldbook of Natural History" ; 2nd edition, Palmer/Fowler. Reproduced most commonly effected by offshoots from corms, though seeds may be produced and used. Soil> equal parts sand, garden soil and rotted manure. To get the best results beds should be dug up at least once every 3 yrs. and corms seperated and replanted. Plants do best if there is an abundance of moistureat the time of flowering. Corms set out in late fall should bloom the following year. Can be planted in a variety of locations: e.g. along a path, on a bank, in front of shrub plantings,, almost anyplace they can be left undisturbed after flowering. NOTE: Seeds produced at ground surface easily overlooked. Ras Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:41:33 EST From: DianaFiona Subject: Re: SC - saffron-VERY LONG << Thanks for the info, will add the reference to my list of books to buy. In the mean time, what can you tell me about growing it? I hope such questions will not be considered off topic and flamed. One of the main reasons for my recent purchase of Puck's Glen was that, as much as I love cooking and brewing (and distilling if Brandu ever lets us), I love the growing of fresh herbs, veggies, meats etc to use in said cooking even more. Who knows, in a few years the cooks list may be able to turn to Puck's Glen for hard to find or quality ingredients if I can learn enough. In service, Puck >> Ah, a man after my own heart! Wish my lord shared my love of gardening, but then, he wishes I shared his love of Ham radio............. ;-) Anyway, check out the current issue of Kitchen Garden. There is an article there on saffron's use by the Penn. Dutch community, as Ras mentioned, plus growing directions and recipes. It is said to be very easy to grow, but growing (and harvesting!) large enough quantities to use in feasts would be a rather daunting task........ Not to mention taking a fair chunk of land! Just how big *is* this glen of yours, anyway? ;-) Ldy Diana Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:48:28 -0500 From: Ceridwen Subject: Re: SC - RE: saffron growing Just a couple bits of trivia on this "thread"... from an article in Smithsonian Magazine a few years back. The author went to Consuega, Spain to spend the saffron harvest season with the growers. His report was beautifully written and the photos were spectacular. The growing and harvesting of saffron has not changed much in technique in more than 400 years. A moderate climate,rich, well-drained sandy loam soil, and moderate rainfall are the basic requirements. In Spain, the corms are planted in rows about 1 foot apart in plots of about 5000 square feet, which will yield about a pound of the finished product. They are harvested each year for 4 years, then dug up, sorted and separated, and replanted in a new plot. Old plots are allowed to go fallow for 10 years before replanting. Most plots are rented, rather than owned by the family. In October when the saffron starts to bloom, the harvest begins. Mostly women and children do the picking and separating . Each plant may produce up to 10 blooms over the week to 10 day season,so picking must be done each morning before the blooms start to wilt. Each bloom is snapped off the stalk into small baskets, When full, they are taken to a building where the workers carefully pull the 3 or 4 stamens from the flower. It takes between 70,000 and 100,000 flowers to amass a pound of dried threads and the fastest workers can only pick out a few ounces a day. Each worker keeps their pickings in front of them on a plate. At the end of the day, each persons pickings are divided into four piles, with the worker being allowed to choose the pile that appears largest for their wage for the day. Some even remove the small bit of white from the bottom of the stamen. The stamens are then "roasted" over a wood or charcoal fire to remove excess moisture. The illustration shows a barrel type stove with trays which fit over the top. The screens are made like cheese boxes, about 6-8" tall, of thin wood with a metal mesh insert held by a strip of metal banding about 2" up from th bottom. The threads are watched very carefully during this step, with experience as the guide as to when they are "done". The quality of saffron depends on many things, from the soil fertility, to weather, to how carefully it is handled during harvest. One company has been doing extensive research into "mechanizing" the whole process, but without a lot of success. They have developed picking machines, but those bog down in the muddy fields. The separation and roasting processes have also been developed, with a lot of attention to the best moisture content for the finished product. The local growers are not apparently worried about this, as they believe that the best saffron will always be picked and sorted by hand, and that there will always be a demand for this attention to quality. I found this information fascinating, as I hope you all do. I have tried without much success to grow saffron here in Florida. the climate is right, but the squirrels dug up and ate the corms. I did get a harvest though, with about 6 blooms per plant. Wonderfully different from purchased threads... much stronger. My Pa-Dutch grandmother had them in her flower beds, but didn't use the spice. I myself didn't realize what her "fall crocuses " were until may years after I moved away. As she would have said, "we grow too soon old and too late smart". But I will try it again, and put the corms into little wire mesh boxes to keep out the critters. Oh, and they come in two colors, purple and white, the white supposedly having been sacred to one of the Greek Gods. Happy growing, Ceridwen Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:50:19 -0800 From: david friedman Subject: Re: SC - Mystery Spice At 12:14 PM -0400 4/10/98, THL Renata wrote: >And speaking of saffron, there was a packet of bright yellow powder labeled >saffron. ... It seems a bit *too* yellow to be either, since both saffron and >safflower red towards reddish. I can't tell by the aroma and I haven't had >the chance to use it in a recipe yet. If you can't tell by the aroma, it isn't saffron. Le Menagier de Paris (14th c.) advises his wife always to buy saffron as threads rather than ground, because if it is ground you don't know what you are getting. It is still good advice. Elizabeth/Betty Cook Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:20:06 EDT From: Kallyr Subject: Re: SC - Oculis Exciditis Porcus Dimidius Facti << Turmeric really isn't a substitute for saffron; saffron has quite a strong taste even in small amounts, which turmeric doesn't. If you end up in this position again and can't find saffron at a reasonable price, talk to us--we're not that far from you. I don't know of any recipes using turmeric in Europe pre-1600. >> However, a period substitution for saffron IS dried calendula flowers. They were commonly grown in European herb gardens. ~~Minna Gantz Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:16:19 EDT From: KKimes1066 Subject: Re: SC - Spices-another source << So, what is the right climate? Anne >> I grow my own saffron in the cold of Northern Calontir, (USDA zone 5a). I've had some good luck and some bad, it really depends on when the first snow fall occurs. Percival Beaumont Esq-App Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:39:06 EDT From: DianaFiona Subject: Re: SC - Spices-another source << I would think that anyone living in an area conducive to growing saffron crocus should purchase a half dozen bulbs. With a few years of attentive gardening, they will have multiplied into a couple of dozen bulbs, enough for an impressively saffroned dish in SCA quantities at an important event. Those with the right climate and like-minded friends could probably grow enough to make their locals despise any yellow food. So, what is the right climate? >> Probably anywhere other crocus varieties grow, which is a fairly wide area. Pennslyvania, for sure--there was a nice article in the magazine "KITCHEN GARDEN" a few months back, describing the Penn. Dutch tradition of growing their own saffron. It gave directions for growing and harvesting the saffron, plus a few recipes. It sounded like the flowers could be grown close enough together that a fairly small bed would still yield a significant harvest of the stigmas. Now if I can just persuade my folks to let me plant yet another bed in their yard........... ;-) Ldy Diana Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:51:28 EDT From: DianaFiona Subject: Re: SC - Spices-another source << In an earlier post someone mentioned being able to by saffron crocuses at the nursery. I would dearly love to try and grow these, but have not seen them in Missouri. Our winters do get cold enough to set the bulbs, so if anyone would happen to know of a mail order source, I would be REALLY interested. broccan >> That's easy enough--a number of mail order sources carry them. One of my favorites is Nichols Garden nursery in Oregon. Their web address is: http://www.pacificharbor.com/nichols/ If you don't have web access let me know and I'll get the phone #, etc. for you. Ldy Diana Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:11:42 -0400 From: hlmarkle at ulster.net (Heather L. Markle) Subject: Re: SC - Growing your own saffron >My question is, where can one get saffron crocus bulbs or plants? > >Renata They aren't that hard to find. Try Ritcher.com (excellent Herb company) or Shepard's seeds. (don't have the web page right off) Catalina Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:40:31 +1000 From: "Sharon Nevin" Subject: Re: SC - Growing your own saffron >The Sunset Western Garden Book shows crocuses (including the Saffron Crocus) >as being able to grow in all *western* zones. This being the case, I have >talked my mom out of yet more of her garden space to try this. >My question is, where can one get saffron crocus bulbs or plants? >Renata There is one problem growing crocus bulbs. Its called birds - in particular sparrows. The little dears love to shread the flowers apart (someone told me it was for the threads). Especially just before you get there in the morning. There is not a lot that can be done about this. You can try attaching strips of stuff to stiks (particularly aluminium foil) to act as a "scarecrow", try netting (looks hideous, and the poor little things get caught and either do themselves a damge or the cat gets an extra meal - not recommended), or race the little blighters to the threads (in which case you are going to lose). We use to have a barrel cut in half and filled with soil in which we planted crocus (in the UK). 90% of the time the birds got to the flowers and shredded them. (shredded as in little pieces of purple petals EVERYWHERE) I don't know if this applies to one species of croci or all (and I don't know what kind of croci we were growing either). Sharon Nevin Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 07:40:39 EDT From: WOLFMOMSCA Subject: SC - Saffron Crocus Source I got my new issue of The Herb Companion in the mail recently, and found a letter regarding the growing of saffron crocus. The staff at the magazine has found a source for saffron crocus bulbs, which are planted in the fall. Here it is: McClure and Zimmerman PO Box 368 Friesland, WI 53935-0368 Phone: 920-326-4220 Fax: 800-692-5864 They say their catalog is free. Happy Herbing! Wolfmother Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 18:45:11 -0600 From: Tim Weitzel & Wendy Robertson To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Growing saffron >75,000 flowers to make a pound, and no it would not be a small amount of >land or care. Crocus are fussy and would not like English weather very >much, damp and cold. They would grow and you could grow them but 75,000 >is a lot. > >Aibhilin That was definitely the impression I had. The reason I ask is because in Thomas Tusser's "Five Hundred Points of Good Husbandry" (first published in 1557) the author states in the Abstract for August: 3. Pare saffon plot, Forget it not. His dwelling make trim, Look shortly for him. When harvest is gone, Then saffron comes on. 4. A little of ground, Brings saffron a pound. The plea sure is fine, The profit is thine. Keep colour in drying, Well used, worth buying. The full version of August gives more information, but I am not sufficiently well versed in 16th century agricultural practices to answer my own questions: 3. Pare saffron between the two St. Mary's days [July 22 and August 15], Or set, or go shift it, though knoweth the ways. What year shall I do it, more profit to yield? The fourth in the garden, the third in the field. 4. In having but forty foot, workmanly dight, Take saffron enough for a lord and a knight. All winter time after, as practice doth teach, What plot have yet better for linen to bleach? I'm assuming the forty foot is describing the plot of land. 40 by what? If the plot is also used for linen bleaching, it can't be too small. Oh, in case it matters, Tusser was from East Anglia (the hamlet of Katwade [Catiwade] in the parish of Brantham, in Samford Hundred, Suffolk, near the river Stour). Sorry I didn't include the quotations in the original post -- I didn't have them with me (and hadn't read the full version, having just recently read the abstract). Did they pick more of the saffron, not just very tiny bit used for proper pure [modern definition] saffron? Ailene / Wendy Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 01:05:23 -0500 From: Leslie Watson To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Growing saffron Tim Weitzel & Wendy Robertson wrote: > Did they pick more of the saffron, not just very tiny bit used for proper > pure [modern definition] saffron? They just took the Stigmas not many per flower, I believe the bulbs are expensive. You plant them in the fall according to the weather in your area. I don't know where you live, I live in Ontario, so we plant bulbs at the end do Septmeber but before the frost. There is Saflower which don't really look like saffron stigma, but colours like it. You use the whole flower there. I will see what I have in the way of other sources I know I have a copy of several other period horitculture books I will look this up and get you some more info. Sor far this has all been from memory so it could be inaccurate. Aihbilin Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 21:34:01 EST From: To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Growing saffron timwendy at avalon.net writes: << The full version of August gives more information, but I am not sufficiently well versed in 16th century agricultural practices to answer my own questions: >> Saffron crocus bulbs can be planted fairly close together, 4 inches apart. Some period pictures of cottage and manor gradens (which I assume are kitchen gardens) clearly show a system of raised beds. A theoretical raised bed 5 feet wide by 15 feet long would be enough space to plant approx. 1040 bulbs. 4 2/3 beds this size would provide enough saffron threads to make 1 oz saffron. Approximately 75 beds this size or a piece of ground egual to 5625 sq. feet would be needed to produce 1 lb. of saffron. Simply put 1/8 of a modern acre could theoretically produce 1 lb. of saffron if you assume a 4 inch space all around between bulbs. Ras Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 22:41:54 EST From: To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Growing saffron << Crocus are fussy and would not like English weather very much, damp and cold. >> They did grow them for awhile in Saffron Walden in England. Ingvild/Nancy Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 22:31:41 -0700 From: To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Growing saffron Ailene ingen Aedain asked: > How much saffron would you need to raise in order to get a pound? Or more > specifically, would a 16th century Englishman have considered it a small > amount of land? Saffron are the yellow-orange stigmas from a small purple crocus (the crocus sativus). There are only three stigmas per flower and it takes approximately 14,000 of them for each ounce. Doing the math...that equals 4,666 flowers or so for each ounce. Carrying that forward into a pound, you would need to raise, at an absolute minimum, 149,312 plants in order to realize a minimum potential harvest of 1 pound. These figures are at current rates of agriculture and growth capability. I think it would be unreasonable for a 16th Century grower to expect 100% of the crops. In average growing (figuring approximately 3" square for each mature plant - maybe a little generous) you could get a maximum of 174,000 plants in one acre (again with perfect conditions). Hence, it would probably take an absolute minimum of 2 acres, more likely 5 acres to grow a pound of saffron. It would follow that a great Lord or Noble of the 16th century would not be really impressed with 5 acres of land (they dealt with much larger holdings) however, a general member of the populace would probably be quite impressed with a five acre lot. But, we are talking real estate here, so then - as now...LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION!! :o) Lady Grania McNish of Eagle's Eyre Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:40:02 -0700 From: "Wanda Pease" Subject: Re: SC - Questions From: "Butterfield, Margaret" > Where do you get this? Is it possible to be grown in a container? > (I live in an apartment.) > Orlaith Saffron crocus are an autumn crocus that will grow here in the US. There was a story in Kitchen Garden Magazine about how the Pennsylvania Dutch had a yellow rice dish that was prepared using home grown saffron from crocus beds specially planted near the house. Evidently there were special little lidded cups made to hold the pistoles. I've found the specific bulbs in a couple of catalogs. You would need several pots to get enough saffron for more than one dish, but at least you would have some pretty flowers! Regina Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:55:35 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Saffron > I could be totally wrong about this, but for some reason I have the name > "crocus sativus" lodged in my head. Wanna give it a shot? > > Adamantius Bang on. As a cute little side note, apparently the seeds are used to make a gout remedy known as colchicine. Bear Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 21:45:59 -0700 From: "David Dendy" Subject: Re: SC - Saffron >> Bang on. As a cute little side note, apparently the seeds are used to make >> a gout remedy known as colchicine. I hate to be pedantic, but this is incorrect. Colchicine is "a yellow, crystalline alkaloid extracted from the seeds and corm of *Colchicum autumnale*." This plant is meadow saffron, also known as Autumn Crocus (if I recall correctly). The uninformed often confuse colchicum with saffron crocus, but you certainly don't want to be using its stigmas as saffron, since they are to a degree poisonous. If you are thinking of planting saffron crocus (the bulbs are not that hard to find, at least in Canada -- I get them at the local garden centre), make sure you specify saffron crocus and confirm with the botanical name, *crocus sativus*. Francesco Sirene Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 09:27:09 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: SC - Saffron-WARNING TerryD at Health.State.OK.US writes: << As a cute little side note, .......... Bear >> There are several species of autumn crocus. The crocus used to make colchicine is different than the saffron crocus!!!!. Colchicum autumnale is most commonly known as autumn crocus, but in various regions it is known as naked-ladies, colchicum, and meadow saffron. It should be noted that it's not a crocus, and it's not saffron, and should definitely not be used in place of saffron in cooking because eating any part of this plant can kill you. The autumn crocus is native to Europe but has been introduced to Canada and the U.S., where it is both grown in gardens and lives as a wild escapee in meadows and woodlands. It's a perennial herb in the lily family (Liliaceae) which grows from a corm (a solid bulb) that can unfortunately be mistaken for a wild onion. The rapierlike leaves grow about a foot high, and in the early fall one or two leafless stalks sprout from the corm; each stalk produces a single white-to-purplish-pink flower that resembles a crocus. The extreme toxicity of this plant has been known since the times of ancient Greece, but in the fifth century, herbalists in the Byzantine Empire discovered it could be used to treat rheumatism and arthritis, and the Arabs began to use it for gout. The useful active ingredient in the plant is an alkaloid called colchicine, which is still used to treat gout and which has anticancer properties. The colchicine crocus is highly poisonous and none of it's parts should be consumed. The powerful chemical is used to induce genetic mutation in plant breeding and will do the same thing with human genes. It is also used for cancer research and treatment. Quote- "Colchicine has proven to have a fairly narrow range of effectiveness as a chemotherapy agent, so its only FDA-approved use is to treat gout. Colchicine also causes teratogenic birth defects in lab animals, and so pregnant women with gout should not use colchicine-containing drugs. Colchicine poisoning resembles arsenic poisoning; the symptoms (which, because it is a mitotic poison, occur 2 to 5 hours after the toxic dose has been ingested) include burning in the mouth and throat, diarrhea, stomach pain, vomiting, and kidney failure. Death from respiratory failure often follows. A specific antidote doesn't exist, Less than than two grams of the seeds is enough to kill a child. Colchicine, a water-soluble alkaloid found in the autumn crocus, blocks or suppresses cell division by inhibiting mitosis, the division of a cell's nucleus. Specifically, it inhibits the development of spindles as the nuclei are dividing. Normally, the cell would use its spindle fibers to line up its chromosomes, make a copy of them, and divide into two new cells with each daughter cell having a single set of chromosomes. With colchicine present, the spindle fibers don't form, and so the cell can't move its chromosomes around. The cell may end up copying some or all of the chromosomes anyway, but can't parcel them out into new cells, and so it never divides".- (Budavari, Susan, ed. 1989. The Merck Index: An Encyclopedia of Chemicals, Drugs and Biologicals. Rahway, NJ, Merck & Co.) When ordering saffron crocuses make sure to spicifically state that you want saffron crocuses and not just any fall blooming crocuses Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 07:01:51 -0400 From: "Butterfield, Margaret" Subject: RE: SC - Saffron Saffron crocus is a fall bloomer. It looks like a regular crocus except it has three long, very red "strings" hanging out of it. The blooms should be plucked the first day they come out and the saffron threads should be carefully removed and set to dry. One plant can bloom 4 to 5 times a season. I have tried removing the saffron threads while leaving the bloom on the plant and ended up breaking off the threads and the plant was satisfied that it did it's job so never made another bloom that season. Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 00:36:45 -0400 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" Subject: Re: SC - Spanish salmon recipe (was: Spanish noodles) And it came to pass on 3 Oct 99,, that Stefan li Rous wrote: > Do late-period Spanish recipes show a greater use of saffron than > elsewhere? Not that I've noticed. Saffron appears in many Spanish recipes; but then again, it appears in many French and Anglo-Norman recipes, too. > Since saffron was grown in Spain, and I presume was cheaper > there, perhaps it was used in greater quantity there? I believe that saffron was also grown in England in period. Isn't that how the town of Saffron Waldron got its name? > Or are the amounts unknown and simply up to the recipe interpreter? There are no amounts given for spices in this particular recipe, nor in most of the Spanish recipes I have seen. A handful of recipes call for "mucho azafran" (a lot of saffron), but most do not seem to suggest a large quantity. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain Settmour Swamp, East (NJ) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:40:05 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Spanish salmon recipe (was: Spanish noodles) << Or are the amounts unknown and simply up to the recipe interpreter? >> More or less, yes. A good rule of thumb, IMO, is to use 1 strand per person. For example, if you are creating a recipe for 6 people use 6 strands. Your milage may very with this system but it seems to work for most recipes. Ras Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 11:39:20 -0400 From: "Philip W. Troy & Susan Troy" To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fw: [MR] Red saffron source Maggie MacDonald wrote: > So how do you tell, by looking, the difference between saffron and > safflower? Safflower is less red, and looks like little dried petals or whole flowers, not the [theoretically] exclusively stamen threads that saffron consists of. And telling me I cannot end a sentence with a preposition is an imposition up with which I shall not put. Safflower also hasn't got a strong aroma like saffron's. Adamantius Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 08:59:44 -0400 From: johnna holloway To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Spice Mixes You might want to read the advice posted at http://www.saffroninfo.com/. Ellen Szita is regarded as the world authority on the uses of saffron. I find that you should make sure that you get saffron threads and not ground or powdered. I keep mine frozen in the freezer in airtight containers. Johnnae llyn Lewis Johnna Holloway bill mayfield wrote: Tried the Fine Poudre mix from The Medieval Kitchen (pg 221) both with and without the Saffron..... I wasnt able to tell a difference in taste. So this leads me to this queston......In a spice mix that calls for Saffron in addition to other spices or herbs does saffron get overpowered easily or is it a colorant? Tried some saffron by its self and it seemed very subtle and something that would be hidden easily. or am I way of base? Aethelwulf From: "Olwen the Odd" To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Spice Mixes Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 16:00:19 +0000 >Morocco. It is a deep, rich red with a haunting almost chemical like >aroma. I can describe it better than that except to say that it >stains the fingers when a single stamen is crushed between my fingers. >Maybe that's the sign of freshness but probably not. I dunno... > >Drakey. That would be what happens when you pick it so I would assume it is very fresh. Sometimes, almost always with the ground stuff, they use other parts of the crocus, actually the stamen which will do the same thing but not as red in colour, to mix in with the saffron threads (which are NOT the stamen). Olwen Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 20:48:10 -0500 From: "Phlip" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Novice Saffon User To: "Cooks within the SCA" >> I am now the lucky owner of 1 gram ofsaffron threads (yay!!) and am >> at a loss with where to start or what to do with it. I've never used >> saffron before (always stayed away from it - spendy!) and would >> appreciate any tips or a good beginner recipe for it (mind you, a >> good "example of saffron in a dish - I'm not a novice cook ;-) ) >> >> Help? :-D Seems to me the simplest thing would be saffron rice. Rather than try the more complicared recipes, where you need to discount the flavors of the other ingredients, you should have a prtty good idea what rice tastes like ;-) and thus be able to judge what its flavor does to a dish, as well as its color intensity. I tend to have several "standard" recipes that I will try just for seeing what an unfamiliar spice will do to the flavor. Saffron Rice 1 c. rice 2 c. water and tablespoon chicken base OR 2 c. chicken stock 6-12 saffron threads tablespoon lemon juice Bring stock or water and chicken base to boil w/saffron and lemon juice. Dump in rice, turn down heat to low, cover and let cok until done. Stir to even color/flavor and serve. You may be using a different rice that requires more or less liquid- go with that amount. The important thing is to get the saffron hot and wet before adding the rice, so it permeates the dish. Saint Phlip, CoDoLDS Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 12:04:32 -0500 (EST) From: Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fideos, was Novice Saffron User To: Cooks within the SCA > Stefan wrote: >> Yes, I believe that saffron was also used as a cloth dye by the >> medieval Europeans as well. I also suspect that Master Cariadoc was >> making a joke, since he doesn't like saffron in his food. > > Saffron was very expensive in Medieval Europe and it does not make a > very fast dye. I don't think it was used a great deal in Europe as a > cloth dye. It was not used much in the Middle East as a cloth dye, > because it isn't fast. When I did my research for the egg-dyeing project, I realized that saffron was mentioned extensively as a fabric dye in Europe, however, that may simply be the result of the color being called saffron (the Irish shirts that are saffron-colored are an example). One of the things I most regret about having a European persona is the relative absence of tumeric as a dye in Europe. I love the tumeric dye colors and it's both easy and fast... however, it was the same price as saffron in Europe and so wasn't often imported (according to Dalby, _Dangerous Tastes_) To insert a plug for one of my friends, Mistress Anne Liese, she has a very nice website that includes a number of dyestuff materials: http://fibers.destinyslobster.com/Dyeing/dyehistory.htm -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 09:05:34 -0800 From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Novice Saffron User To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" Hey all from Anne-Marie On maximizing Saffrons effect: When I make my darioles, or any dish that I want to have flavor and am not so focused on keeping the threads distinct, I'll take my pinch and put it in a cup with a bit of hot water or broth or wine (whatever the recipe is using) and sit down for 15-20 minutes, watch some TV and moosh them with a spoon. The threads will get lighter colored and the liquid becomes a glorious shade of red-orange. For a stew or other dish that is going to simmer or boil for a good long while, I don't worry about it so much as the threads will release their saffronny goodness all on their own without my help. On the reverse side, of course, if you're interested in keeping distinct threads with their flavor isolated (can be a cool effect), just toss them in with a minimum of stirring. I've also found the freshness of the saffron to be a major variable. If the stuff is the old shriveled stuff you get from the back shelf of most grocery stores (ie low turnover), you need a lot more vs the stuff I get from Tony at WorldSpice or the Spanish Table here in Seattle which is positively damp still its so fresh...I find I often only need five or six threads of juicy stuff vs a much larger quantity of the older stuff. I never use the pre-powdered stuff...its oomph seems pretty much gone by the time it gets to the store. --AM Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 21:09:43 -0500 From: Johnna Holloway > IIRC, the refernces I saw for saffron being grown in England were not > on-line or in a cooking source, but in an upper-division class on the > Economy of England in the 14th and 15th c. The texts however are on a > bookshelf some 180 miles away, as usual. > YMMV. > > L'ainie Of course Saffron was grown in England--------- hence Saffron Waldron--- http://www.saffronshops.com/history/index.shtml If one examines William Harrison's Description of England one will find that chapter VIII of Book III is titled: "Of Our Saffron and the Dressing Thereof." Harrison wrote his accounts for Holinshed's 16th century Chronicles of England. (The Dover edition of Harrison is very reasonably priced for those that still buy books.) Johnnae llyn Lewis Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 22:07:31 -0500 From: "vicki shaw" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Spices was licorice, To: "Cooks within the SCA" Funny [saffron] should come up because I read a historical novel just a few months ago that takes place after 1066 and around the time Rufus' hunting [accident] in which a man is sold some seeds to grow saffron with the promise it will be the harvest of the future, and then earlier today when I tried to save face by referencing my book on spices, I read that " A dozen miles south southeast of Cambridge is one of the truly idyllic towns in Essex: Saffron Walden........On the town's shield are three saffron flowers, due - like its name - to the fact that saffron has been cultivated there since the fourteenth Century." This contradicts the story in th novel I read, but it is still interesting. The chapter on saffron goes on to say that the crocuses were brought to England by a pilgrim returning from the Holy Land who had stolen them in Tripolis.... Angharad ferch Iorwerth; MKA Vicki Shaw Barony Byond the Mountain East Kingdom Date: Fri, 04 Jan 1980 10:27:58 +0200 From: Jessica Tiffin Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Spices was licorice To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org At 11:23 PM 2/23/04 -0600, Ranvaig wrote: > And Saffron IS native to Europe. There are pictures of it on the > walls of Knossos. Andrew Dalby's "Dangerous Tastes" suggests that its origin is probably in Asia Minor, although it was known very early on in Europe - he cites a mention in the Iliad and in wall-paintings in Akrotiri in the Aegean islands before the eruption of Santorini. He also suggests it was know in Iran in "very ancient times", and reached Kashmir anywhere between the 5th century BC and the 3rd century AD. Spain, of course, is now the producer of the highest-quality saffron. Weird detail - he mentions a Cretan wall-painting which suggests monkeys might have been trained to pick the crocuses! JdH Jehanne de Huguenin (Jessica Tiffin) * Drachenwald Kingdom Chronicler Shire of Adamastor, Cape Town, South Africa Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 07:01:16 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Saffron in Ireland To: "Cooks within the SCA" > I found references connecting Saffron in Cornwall to the Phoenicians, > but I'm not sure there is actual proof of this. > > Our group plays Ireland circa 1004, so if it was brought by the > Normans, that is too late for us. > > Ranvaig It is unprovable. If saffron was imported in the Bronze Age tin trade, I doubt that the plants were traded and they were being cultivated there, the Romans would have noted it. The best evidence is the Romans introduced the plant to Britian and that it fell into disuse and died out until reintroduced in the early Medieval period. Bear Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:21:03 -0400 From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Saffron in Ireland To: Cooks within the SCA > Where is saffron native, and when did it come to Ireland? A friend > was told that saffron was from India, was brought to Ireland by the > Crusaders. Since it was known in Minoan Crete, and has a long > history in Spain, I would guess that it has a much longer history in > Ireland than this. Saffron is native to the Eastern mediterranean, but it was a common trade import for most of period, including Roman times. Saffron Walden, according to the Encyclopedia Britannica, took on it's name in the mid 14th century with the introduction of Saffron growing in that area. According to the EB: " In early times, however, the chief seat of cultivation was in Cilicia, in Asia Minor. It was cultivated by the Arabs in Spain about 961 and is mentioned in an English leechbook, or healing manual, of the 10th century but may have disappeared from western Europe until reintroduced by the crusaders." The first mention of the word saffron cited by the Oxford English Dictionary is " c1200 Trin. Coll. Hom. 163 Hire winpel wit oer maked eleu mid saffran. " So, I would say that though saffron was not native to Ireland or grown there, there's a good chance it was in use there. -- -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 08:11:03 -0700 From: Susan Fox-Davis Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Saffron in Ireland To: Cooks within the SCA Terry Decker wrote: > IIRC, McClintock in Old Irish and Highland Dress mentions saffron dyes in > relation to Irish clothing from about the 15th Century, but it has been > several years since I casual read the book nad my memory may be faulty. > > Bear I recalled this too, something about "saffron-dyed leine brought strength to the limbs," so I hit Google and got the 1911 Encyclopedia, which says, in part: It was, however, mainly used as a dye. It was a royal color in early Greek times, though afterwards, perhaps from its abundant use in the baths and as a scented salve, it was especially appropriated by the hetairae. In ancient Ireland a kings mantle was dyed with saffron, and even down to the 17th century the lein-croich, or saffron-dyed shirt, was worn by persons of rank in the Hebrides. In medieval illumination it furnished, as a glaze uon burnished tinfoil, a cheap and effective substitute for gold. The sacred spot on the forehead of a Hindu pundit is also partly composed of it. Its main use in England was to color pastry and confectionery, and it is stifi used for this purpose in some parts of the country (notably Cornwall). Some more remarks on Saffron, including some excerpts from letters from Henry VIII forbidding native Irish customs, appear at: http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/irish/saffron.html Selene Colfox Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 11:51:21 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Saffron in Ireland To: Cooks within the SCA Saffron was and can be grown in England. Saffron Walden and Cornwall grew saffron at various times. There's no reason it couldn't have been grown in Ireland as regards climate. [Ireland grows a surprising number of almost tropical plants in gardens, including a number not grown in England.] But did they? Is it saffron the plant or saffron the color? Did they use another plants or plants to achieve the "saffron" yellow color? This seems to be the question and that's been a bone of contention for quite some time among various historians and Irish scholars and groups like the SCA. http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/irish/saffrondye.html suggests they used another plant that produced a yellow saffron color. http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/irish/saffron.html is along these lines. Googling produces 1,530 for saffron yellow color ireland I don't know that we are going to produce a definative answer or if there is one. Johnnae llyn Lewis Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 10:01:13 +1300 From: Adele de Maisieres Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] And Speaking of Sweets... To: Cooks within the SCA SilverR0se at aol.com wrote: > Saffron needs to bloom in hot liquid if not little threads are to be left in > the final product. Will adding a small amount of hot water affect the final > product? Should I melt a little of the butter and bloom the saffron in that? > How will melted butter affect the end result? Saffron colour is soluble in water or alcohol, but not particularly so in fat. So if you want a good colour, you will probably have to use a little hot water, vinegar (extracts the colour really well), or (my preference) a spoonful of warm brandy. I suggest putting the saffron to soak at least two hours before you want to start baking. A _small_ amount of added liquid shouldn't have much effect on your shortbread. -- Adele de Maisieres Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:28:31 -0700 From: Maggie MacDonald Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] And Speaking of Sweets... To: Cooks within the SCA The persian/middle eastern method is to grind the saffron with a little sugar (or salt), then let it bloom in hot water for a while before use. That way theres no threads to get stuck in things to begin with. Maggie Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 08:11:59 -0800 (PST) From: Fergus Stout Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 11, Issue 18 To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org How hard is saffron to grow? Siobhan __________ Extremely hard - it is sterile flower and the bulbs must be dug up and replanted each season. Each flower has 3 stamen - it is these which we call saffron. These must be harvested by hand, sorted and graded. Most saffron production is around the Mediterranean with a growing business in India. Fergus Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:26:10 -0500 From: "Nick Sasso" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] grow your own spices? (was) Onion Juice - and Saffronmeasurements To: "Cooks within the SCA" -----Original Message----- < < < How hard is saffron to grow? Siobhan > > > > > Grow? Not difficult at all depending on your zone. It's a bubl. Now, protecting it from the furry tailed little b at stards that will eat it in my yard is another thing. Growing enough to make it worth your while may not be so hard, but at 3-4 threads per blossom, tops, quantity is something to think about too. niccolo difrancesco Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:28:28 -0500 From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] grow your own spices? (was) Onion Juice - and Saffron measurements To: Cooks within the SCA > How hard is saffron to grow? I've read that saffron isn't hard to grow in temperate climates. But.. it only grows from bulbs not from seed. If it is happy they will multiply, but buying enough bulbs to have saffron for feast this year, isn't going to be an economic solution. Buying a few dozen and raising a patch for your kitchen's use is possible. A dozen bulbs might give you enough saffron for a pot of rice this year, and hopefully two pots next year, and so on. I did some research on this a few years back, but we moved before I could plant any. The handwork harvesting the saffron is why it is so expensive. Saffron is the stamens of the specific type of crocus flower, and each flower only has a few stamens. Each flower has to be picked, and the saffron separated. Ranvaig Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 09:14:15 -0500 From: "Barbara Benson" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] grow your own spices? (was) Onion Juice - and Saffron measurements To: "Cooks within the SCA" > How hard is saffron to grow? > > Siobhan Others have already said what I was going to - that it isn't too hard to grow depending on your zone. But hopefully I have something useful to add, a link to someone who sells the bulbs: http://www.nicholsgardennursery.com/index.htm They also sell hops, garlic and all kinds of herbs and such. It is a really nifty site. Serena da Riva Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 14:17:43 -0600 (CST) From: "Pixel, Goddess and Queen" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] saffron, continued (poison vs editable) To: Cooks within the SCA > I was recently told that there are some of the same named bulbs > that are poisonous that I have to make sure to get the editable > ones when I go to plant them. Just thought I would pass that FYI > along :) > > Siobhan Yes. "Autumn Crocus" is used both to refer to the saffron crocus (Crocus sativa/us) and members of the Colchicum genus. Colchicums are poisonous, Crocus sativa is not. The page on saffron that the Brooklyn Botanical Garden has up says that a Colchicum has six stamens while a Crocus only has three: http://www.bbg.org/gar2/topics/plants/2001fa_crocus.html And they have a few more links as to where to get bulbs, too. Margaret FitzWilliam Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 08:12:51 -0800 From: Susan Fox Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OOP Flavored Short Bread To: Cooks within the SCA A teaspoon or two of hot water should be OK, there's probably more water than that in regular US supermarket butter [not Euro butter, not ghee]. Bloom the strands in a shot of the hot, mix like crazy into the creamed butter and sugar, then proceed with the flour. silverr0se at aol.com wrote: > I am experimenting with adding flavors to short bread and have a > quandry that a more experienced baker (and dessert eater) may know > the answer to. > > I would like to add saffron to the short bread but I am wondering > how to incorporate it, since saffron needs to bloom in hot liquid. > But there is no liquid, hot or otherwise, in short bread. I've > thought about blooming it in a very small amount of hot water and > adding it in, or else melting a little bit of the butter and adding > it that way. But I don't know what these methods might do to the > finished product and I don't want to waste my expensive saffron if > I don't need to. > > What to you think? > > Renata Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:26:59 -0800 From: "Laura C. Minnick" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OOP Flavored Short Bread To: Cooks within the SCA > I would like to add saffron to the short bread but I am wondering > how to incorporate it, since saffron needs to bloom in hot liquid. > But there is no liquid, hot or otherwise, in short bread. I've > thought about blooming it in a very small amount of hot water and > adding it in, or else melting a little bit of the butter and adding > it that way. But I don't know what these methods might do to the > finished product and I don't want to waste my expensive saffron if I > don't need to. I have had reasonably good success by grinding the saffron finely with another ingredient- usually either salt or sugar. Not quite the same as putting it in hot liquid, but does diffuse the flavor a bit better. Of course, I really like saffron, and tend to use a fair amount, unlike those who believe that it is a scribal error. :-D 'Lainie Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 14:07:46 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OOP Flavored Short Bread To: "Cooks within the SCA" A couple teaspoons to a tablespoon of water shouldn't do much to the texture. Steep the saffron in the hot water and then let it cool. Add the saffron water to sugar and butter when you cream it. If you use butter to extract the saffron, when you finish, put the melted butter into the refrigerator to cool it down and solidify it. Break it up and add it to the butter and sugar in the mixture. Bear > I would like to add saffron to the short bread but I am wondering how to > incorporate it, since saffron needs to bloom in hot liquid. But there is > no liquid, hot or otherwise, in short bread. I've thought about blooming > it in a very small amount of hot water and adding it in, or else melting a > little bit of the butter and adding it that way. But I don't know what > these methods might do to the finished product and I don't want to > waste my expensive saffron if I don't need to. > > What to you think? > > Renata Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 15:59:15 -0500 From: "Nick Sasso" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OOP Flavored Short Bread To: "Cooks within the SCA" Saffron's essentials are warm water soluable rather than fat soluable. Ergo, the butter won't get the dissolving and infusion that you want. niccolo difrancesco Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 17:15:59 -0500 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OOP Flavored Short Bread To: Cooks within the SCA It may not be optimal but it does work. And it can be better than changing the chemistry of the dough by adding water. A number of the 18th century shortbread recipes call for melted butter. Johnnae Nick Sasso wrote: > Saffron's essentials are warm water soluable rather than fat soluable. > Ergo, the butter won't get the dissolving and infusion that you want. > > niccolo difrancesco Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 14:41:28 -0600 From: Susan Lin To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Saffron I don't know all the ins and outs but coupe means cut. It is usually the middle expensive. It means that the yellow tips have been cut off leaving only the red. There is the Kashmir that is all red (the most expensive as far as I know) then the coupe and then there is the lower grade that still has the yellow. As for the difference in geographical regions I'd have to defer to someone else. On 10/30/09, Stefan li Rous wrote: > Spanish Coupe - $12.75/gram > Spanish Mancha - $10.75/gram, $139.00/ounce What is the difference between these two? Are "Coupe" and "Mancha" different regions in Spain? Or are these referring to different grades of saffron? I saw a mention earlier of Iranian vs. Spanish saffron. How are these different? Is there some reason, other than political ones, that I might one type instead of the other?   Stefan Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 17:08:15 -0400 From: Craig Daniel To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Saffron On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 4:24 PM, Stefan li Rous wrote: > Spanish Coupe - $12.75/gram > Spanish Mancha - $10.75/gram, $139.00/ounce What is the difference between these two? Are "Coupe" and "Mancha" different regions in Spain? Or are these referring to different grades of saffron? ------- "Coupe" is not a Spanish word or place name, but is from the French for "cut" and refers to the processing. "Mancha" means "stain," but it's also a place name - "La Mancha" is a region in central Spain, which gives its name to queso manchego ("cheese from La Mancha") and, of course, El Ingenioso Hidalgo Don Quijote de La Mancha. I'm not sure which meaning is meant in the context of saffron; both seem plausible, since saffron stains things yellow but a lot of it also comes from central Spain. - Jaume Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 16:38:48 -0700 From: David Walddon To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Saffron <<< I saw a mention earlier of Iranian vs. Spanish saffron. How are these different? Is there some reason, other than political ones, that I might one type instead of the other?   Stefan >>> They are also graded on color as well. The Kashmir/Iranian seems to start at a higher color grade than the Spanish. Www.saffron.com has a good explanation of the different grades etc. Eduardo Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 14:49:38 -0700 From: David Walddon To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Saffron Query The best price and quality is saffron.com. That is where I usually buy and it is around $80 an ounce but it fluctuates. Eduardo