rue-msg - 6/7/09 Medieval uses of the herb "rue". Cautions. NOTE: See also the files: herbs-msg, p-herbals-msg, seeds-msg, herb-uses-msg, mandrake-art, garlic-msg, capers-msg, angelica-msg, sumac-msg, herbs-cooking-msg, birth-control-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: lmanning at julian.uwo.ca (l.k. manning) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: re: Rue Date: 16 Jan 1995 17:33:38 GMT Organization: University of Western Ontario, London, Ont. Canada According to "An Illustrated Guide to Herbs" by Anna Kruger, rue has been considered an antidote to poisoning, a sprinkler for holy water during Catholic High Mass, benificial to the eyes, and helpful for rheumatic pains. It isn't usually used in cooking as it has an overpowering taste. I hope that sheds some light... Kahleen M'Glannagh From: jeffs at math.bu.EDU (Jeff Suzuki) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: rue Date: 19 Jan 1995 14:53:48 -0500 If memory serves correctly, rue is an abortifacient. Jeffs From: Alys of Foxdale Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 10:07:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SC - Rue > I have recently become interested in gardening and bought a lovely plant > called "rue". Was this known in period? What were its uses? Is there any > folklore surrounding it? > > Helisenne Dang! I really need to get more herb books; most of mine have no historical or medicinal info at all, and the use of rue was primarily medicinal. I know Shakespeare mentions rue more than once. Ever heard the saying "rue the day you were born"? Rue was associated with melancholy and regret; I think it may have been used to treat it; either that or it was used by the suicidal. It is a poison, and has been used as an abortifacient. According to _The Pleasure of Herbs_ by Phyllis Shaudys, "Once a medicinal herb, bunches of it [rue] were used to ward off the plague, and King Mithridates is said to have taken small doses of rue and other poisonous herbs to make himself immune to assassination attempts." From _Herbs for the Home_ by Jekka McVicar: "The Romans brought it [rue] across Northern Europe to Britain, where it did not gain favor until the Middle Ages, when it was one of the herbs carried in nosegays by the rich as protection from evil and the plague. Also, like rosemary, it was placed near the judge before prisoners were brought out, as protection from the pestilence ridden jails and fever. It was famous for preserving eyesight and was said to promote second sight, perhaps acting on the third eye. Both Leonardo da Vinci and Michaelangelo are supposed to have said that their inner vision had been enhanced by this herb." McVicar goes on to say that rue was used to treat eyestrain, eyestrain headaches, nervous headaches, heart palpitations, high blood pressure, nervous digestion, and colic. It was also used to help harden bones and teeth, and to expel worms. Both sources warn against handling rue; it is known to cause a rash called phytol-dermatitis, and also strong allergic reactions. It is also enlightening to check out the page and a half of entries in the Oxford English Dictionary if you have one handy. Alys of Foxdale Shire of Stierbach, Kingdom of Atlantia mka Sallie Montuori Chantilly, Virginia, USA foxdale at wolfstar.com From: Alys of Foxdale Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 10:26:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SC - Rue Upon re-reading my post, I don't think I made this sufficiently clear: RUE IS POISON. DO NOT USE IT YOURSELF FOR ANY OF THE TREATMENTS LISTED. IF YOU ARE PREGNANT, DO NOT EVEN HANDLE THE HERB. You are all intelligent adults, I'm sure, but I feel better having said that in so many words. Alys From: Uduido at aol.com Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 18:34:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SC - Rue << the use of rue was primarily medicinal. >> Although this may have been true for late period, MANY early period recipes call for rue as a flavoring agent. Perhaps because of it's strong smell and bitter taste it was later deemed "poisonous". I have used it numerous times in feasts and have never had anyone get ill from it. Lord Ras From: Alys of Foxdale Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 19:16:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SC - Rue On Sat, 3 May 1997 Uduido at aol.com wrote: > << RUE IS POISON. DO NOT USE IT YOURSELF FOR ANY OF THE TREATMENTS > LISTED BELOW. IF YOU ARE PREGNANT, DO NOT EVEN HANDLE THE HERB. >> > > Alys, > > Since I have used, picked, handled eaten, and served rue with no ill affects, > would you be so kind as to e-mail details of modern sources detailing the > poisonous affects of Rue? Thank-you. > > Lord Ras _Herbs for the Home_ by Jekka McVicar (1994) "[Rue] Must only be used by medical personnel and not at all by pregnant women, as it is abortive. Large doses are toxic, sometimes precipitating mental confusion, and the oil is capable of causing death." This is not the only source I've read warning of the danger of using rue, but this and the other I quoted earlier are the only ones I currently possess which mention rue at all. I find it interesting and telling, that even _The Encyclopedia of Herbs, Spices, and Flavorings_ (1992), a compendium sufficiently large that it has listings even for such hard-to-find items as our old friends cubebs, long pepper, and grains of paradise, doesn't list rue. So if you still want to use rue, fine, go ahead -- but I won't. Alys of Foxdale Shire of Stierbach, Kingdom of Atlantia mka Sallie Montuori Chantilly, Virginia, USA foxdale at wolfstar.com From: david friedman Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 00:15:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: SC - Rue Rue shows up in medieval Islamic recipes, including some in the _Miscellany_. We have grown it and used it with no ill effects. ("We" in these posts means Cariadoc and Elizabeth). It has a rather bitter taste, which may explain some of the literary references. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ From: Alys of Foxdale Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 09:17:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SC - Rue - How much is too much? > Rue shows up in medieval Islamic recipes, including some in the > _Miscellany_. We have grown it and used it with no ill effects. ("We" in > these posts means Cariadoc and Elizabeth). It has a rather bitter taste, > which may explain some of the literary references. > > David/Cariadoc Clearly I need to fill in some holes in my cooking herbal collection, which has proven to have a glaring lack east and south of Europe. Since so many people have said they use it with no ill-effect, perhaps it might be more to the point to determine how much is too much, or at least what a safe range is. So how much rue is called for in the average recipe that uses it? What is the largest concentration you have ever used? [This "you" is meant to the list at large, not to point a finger at Duke Cariadoc.] Alys of Foxdale Shire of Stierbach, Kingdom of Atlantia mka Sallie Montuori Chantilly, Virginia, USA foxdale at wolfstar.com From: Uduido at aol.com Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 20:01:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: SC - Rue - How much is too much? In a message dated 97-05-04 09:18:13 EDT, you write: << So how much rue is called for in the average recipe that uses it? What is the largest concentration you have ever used? [This "you" is meant to the list at large, not to point a finger at Duke Cariadoc.] >> My usage was never more than 1/2 tsp. to 1 tblsp dried rue in a recipe that serves 4-8. Usually I just go out to the herb bed and snip off a sprig and drop it into the pot. Lord Ras From: barbara shuwarger Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 18:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: SC - Rue - How much is too much? I can't imagine that rue is all that poisonous - it is sold in the nursery right next to the thmye and lavendar. I personally would not describe the taste as bitter or unpleasant. I would describe it as more like pungent, a little like cilantro. Boy is there a lot of folklore associated with this herb! I've recently devoloped an interest in gardening, so naturally I had to buy a zillion books on the subject, including more than a few on herbs. Rodale's "Illustrated Encyclopedia of herbs", IMHO is more useful for folklore than gardening advice. Fascinating stuff is included on the herb "rue". A few tidbits follow: Aristotle said it eased nervous indigestion when eating before foreigners. The Roman Pliny said it improved eyesight. Indeed Leonardo da Vinci and Michelango hundreds of years later are said to have used it to improve their own second sight. (And they were hardly stupid!) But most of the folklore seems to involve tales of rue's anti magical characteristics. It was considered a reliable defense against witches and the plague. Did you guys know it was an early model for the suit of clubs in playing cards? Rodale also relates this anecdote called "Vinegar of the four Thieves". "During the Great Plague of London in 1665, as many as 7,000 people were dying each week. In this plague, as in others that swept Europe, herbs were used in unending combinations and applications to cure the infected as well as to ward off disease. ....A red cross was painted on the doors of homes where a plague death had occurred, providing a warning to the wary and a signal to the unscrupulous. Among the latter was a band of thieves, who, fortified by drafts of an herbal vinegar, stole from corpses..Rue was a primary ingredient. Mixed into a gallon of red wine vinegar were 1-1/2 ounces each of rue, sage, mint, wormwood, and rosemary; 2 ounces of lavendar flowers; 1/2 oz. of camphor; and 1/4 oz. each of cinammon, cloves, garlic, and Calamus aromaticus." Sounds like good salad dressing to me... I wonder if they drank it straight up. OK< regarding its toxicity, Rodale says, " Large doses can cause violent gastrointestinal pains and vomiting, mental confusion, prostration, and convulsive twitching. It should never be taken by preganat women as it can trigger abortion...Overexposure to sunlight after ingesting rue can result in severe sunburn..." "Brother Cadfael's Herb Garden" gives more rue-ology. "Rue, a strong aromatic herb, was used to give a bitter flavour to foods and alcoholic drinks, especially grappa. It was also added to salads ....The expression 'rue the day' comes from the custom of throwing a bunch of rue in the face of one's enemies while cursing them...The rue was also worn for luck and as protection against witchcraft....It was also hung inside houses to repel insects.. Listed by Aelfric, the plant was used in perfumes anc cosmetics." Additonally, David Hoffman's "The Complete Illustrated Holistic Herbal" says that its main use is the regulation of menstrual periods, where it is used to bring on suppressed menses...the easing of spasm gives it a role in the stopping of spasmodic coughs... If fresh leaf is chewed, it will relieve tension headaches, ease palpitations and other anxiety problems." Of course, unless you believe in holistic medicine, you can disregard the above. In summary, all the works I consulted seem to agree that it can definitely cause abortion during pregnancy and certain skin irritations among allergic persons. However, IMHO, since there is such a large body of folklore associated with it, the herb must have been fairly widely used and just can't be all that toxic. Check out the recipe I cited above for suggested quantities used in one particular potion. And please don't blame me if you get sick from etaing it, cause I'm certainly no expert here. As far as the allergic reactions go, I think there quite a few herbs and other plants that fall into this category. I have even known people who are sensitve to garlic, poor souls. And strawberries, And avocados. Ad infinitum. So rue is definitely a period herb, perhaps more used in medicinal preparations than culinary, though not exclusively so. I ate an entire sprig in my ignorance and it didn't do a thing to me. But then I'm not pregnant (thank god). By the way, I am new to this list and I keep wondering if someone is going to flame me for writing of an herb that has largely medicinal uses. Is it OK? Well, if they can write of pizza topped with pineapple on the Caid list.... Helisenne From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON) Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 23:39:23 EDT Subject: Re: SC - Rue >I am unfortunately a person who suffers from a lot of allergies. Now I'm >wondering if I should just give the damned thing away. But then, I could >use protection from the plague. > >Are you saying then I shouldn't ever eat the stuff? >Am I going to rue the day I bought this plant? ;-) Helisenne, Keep the plant. Don't eat it. If you need to touch it, use rubber gloves, or protect your hands by using a paper towel to pull off dead leaves. Run and stand next to it at the next plague alert. ;-) I've looked it up in several of my herbals, and it is eaten raw in salads [in small amounts] in Italy, drunk as a tea, and used in other ways, many medicinal, although not used as often in the USA as formerly. Caution against using when pregnant is in every book. There are several varieties, some stronger than others. It is apparently best handled and used, if at all, sparingly and with great caution. Recommended as an attractive garden plant. Keville, Kathi. _Herbs, An Illustrated Encyclopedia_ [A complete culinary, cosmetic, medicinal and ornamental guide]. Barnes & Noble, Inc. 1997. ISBN 0 7606 0486 4. Ody, Penelope. _The Complete Medicianl Herbal_ [a practicle guide to the healing properties of herbs, with more than 250 remedies for common ailments]. Dorling Kindersly, NY, 1993. ISBN 1 56458 187 X. Grieve, Mrs. M. _A Modern Herbal_ (vol II, I-Z and indexes) Dover Reprint, NY 1971. Harcourt, Brace & Co., NY, 1931. Allison From: david friedman Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 00:12:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: SC - Rue - How much is too much? >So how much rue is called for in the average recipe that uses it? >What is the largest concentration you have ever used? [This "you" is >meant to the list at large, not to point a finger at Duke Cariadoc.] > > Alys of Foxdale I have a meatball recipe that uses a pound of meat and a teaspoon of rue. A Tabahajah recipe with 1 lb of meat and a tablespoon of rue. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ From: "Sue Wensel" Date: 5 May 1997 10:01:44 -0500 Subject: Re(2): SC - Rue Every herbal has varying levels of comfort with the toxicity of various plants. I have one herbal that is sufficiently paranoid as to list Rosemary as toxic in large enough doses! However, this only underscores the need to have several herbals for reference, not just one or two. Also, remember that the doses used in cooking are significantly lower than those used "medicinally" which is what most herbals are bought for. In addition, I will repeat here what I say to all newbies who want to practice period herbalism: IF YOU WANT TO PRACTICE PERIOD HERBALISM, PLEASE, *PLEASE* GET A COUPLE OF MODERN HERBALS SO YOU CAN PRACTICE SAFELY!!!! I am sorry, but I feel I can not stress this enough. I then almost always will get they "But they did it in period..." arguement. Sure, the Italian women put belladonna in their eyes, but that is an experiment I am not willing to try, are you? Other plants to be handled with care (as we seem to be discussing this) are tansy and pennyroyal. Both these plants were used in cooking during period (there is even a dish called Tansy), but we need to be careful. I would venture that part of the toxicity issue may be that we now have a different tolerance for the alkaloids present in these plants than our predecessors did. Lord Ras has been fortunate with the lack of side effects for him. I hope it continues so for him. Derdriu From: nweders at mail.utexas.edu (ND Wederstrandt) Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 16:12:06 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: SC - Essential Oils & Rue Concerning Rue: According to Madeline Hill and Gwen Barclay who have written "Southern Herb Growing" and has managed and huge Herb business. Rue contains a volitile oil that can cause severe sking rashing and blistering when coming in contact with skin. They recommend that you wear gloves when gardening around it. It is used in Roman cookery and I usually substitute hyssop which is a bitter herb or I suppose any of the other bitter herbs. While normally culinary herbs are safe, if you are pregnant, always check. When I was selling herbs one of the people who taught me told me that chamomile can cause negative reactions for pregnant women. People easily forget that many of our medicines we use now are derived from herbs or have chemical compounds that are similar. Like everyone else has said just check a book or call a health store. Tansy and comfrey are another herbs that our forebears ate while we no longer expound their uses as much. Clare Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:09:06 -0700 From: david friedman Subject: Re: SC - Re: sca-flavor substitutes At 11:47 PM -0700 5/9/98, Anne-Marie Rousseau wrote: >I'm told that rue, for example can be replaced by the non-abortifacent >mint. Never having tasted rue (I get twitchy at the potential of messing >with hormonal balances, go figure), I can't vouch for this. Anyone got a >patch of the stuff, is not planning on breeding anytime soon and be willing >to give us a taste test? We have grown our own rue and used it in cooking in small quantities. I have never noticed any effect on hormone balance or anything else. It has a bitter, not particularly minty taste. I suspect that you need worry about abortifacent effects only in much larger quantities than anyone would want to eat it--I can't imagine anyone liking bitter that much. Elizabeth/Betty Cook Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 16:06:43 -0400 From: Ceridwen Subject: SC - Re: rue and its properties. sca-cooks at Ansteorra.ORG wrote: > Hi all from Anne-Marie > re: rue and its properties... > does anyone out there know HOW it works? Until I know, I'm assuming that > any abortificant has the possibility of messing with hormonal balances, and > as someone who relies on chemically derived estrogen levels (ie birth > control pills) I am hesitant to ingest anything that might affect their > effectivness. > Same reason I avoid ginsing (looks like estrogen to some bodies). Quote from "the New Age Herbalist", a really, really good modern herbal, don't let the title scare you off. "ruta graveolens, Rue, Herb of Grace, Parts used ; aerial parts Constituents ; volatile oil (containing up to 90% methylnonylketone, also limonene, cineole, etc.) several alkaloids including fagarine and arborinine, coumarins (bargapten,xanthotoxin, psoralen) Main uses : *medical* strains and sprains. Absent periods (professional use only) Rue is a powerful remedy and low doses are the rule. It has a special place in the treatment of strained eyes and headaches caused by eyestrain. It is also useful for nervous headaches and heart palpitations. The anispasmodic action of its oil and alkaloids explain its use in treating nervous indigestion and colic. The tea also expels worms. Its alkaloids, arborinine and fagarine as well as the oil and coumarins all stimulate the uterus and because of this rue strongly promotes menstruation. The rutin strengthens fragile blood vessels and varicose veins. An ointment containing rue is good for gouty, rheumatic pains and for sprained or bruised tendons as well as chillblains. In Chinese medicine rue is specific for snake and insect bites. Caution : Not to be used in pregnancy. The coumarins may cause photosensitivity and skin contact can cause a rash. Large doses may be poisonous." Hope this helps... seems to me there is no hormonal effect, but muscular. I will not use this herb internally unless prescribed by a licensed homeopathic physician. Externally, it's great for fighter bruises and strains (infused in an oil base) Ceridwen Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 23:05:47 -0400 From: mermayde at juno.com (Christine A Seelye-King) Subject: SC - Rue Well, I was out in the garden today, and I went over and tasted the Rue. First, I broke off some new growth, and bit into it. Bitter. Too bitter to keep chewing on, but if I just sucked on it a little, it was ok. It doesn't taste much like mint at all, no menthol feeling. It has more of a licorice taste to it, or maybe horehound (I kept remembering some kind of old-fashioned candy, but couldn't put my finger on it). After about 3 minutes of standing there trying to picture the flavor in my mind, my tounge, lips, and roof of my mouth went numb. I quit then. Several hours later, I can still feel that a little bit (not numbness really, just kind of an after-effect) Interesting. I would imagine a little would go a long way in a recipie, and can see where it would add and interesting flavor in a diluted form. Christianna Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 15:04:24 +1000 (EST) From: Charles McCathieNevile Subject: Re: SC - Rue I have had a mead flavoured with rue to make it bitter - fantastic! (Another feather in the cap of Stephen Nicol, who probably has enough to cover a peacock already ;) Charles Ragnar Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 17:24:49 -0700 To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lovage and Rue Soffya Appollonia Tudja sent a bunch of links and a warning that rue is poisonous. I thank you for your concern. These links concern Syrian/African Rue. It does sound hazardous. > http://www.acacialand.com/syrian.html > http://www.oda.state.or.us/plant/weed_control/alerts/AfricanRue.html > http://www.deoxy.org/gz_indo.htm However it is Peganum harmala, and is not the kind used in cuisine, which is Ruta graveolens. > http://www.ontariowildflower.com/lakeedge.htm This page you sent has links about Meadow rue, tall (Thalictrum polygamum) again the kind not used in cuisine. I am looking for Ruta graveolens, which as far as i can tell, while bitter, will not cause people to hallucinate. I appreciate your concern. I've no wish to harm my diners, and i know that many people think, for some reason, that if it's "natural", some how it's "safe". However, i know that the natural world harbors hidden and often well-known dangers. Ruta graveolens can also pose some problems, so i'm researching it. Anahita Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 22:59:41 -0400 (EDT) From: To: Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lovage and Rue > Rue > > Many of the Roman recipe i'm looking at call for rue as a green herb. > I doubt i can find any. But if i do, i am concerned about the > possibilities of contact dermatitis, which rue can cause. > Has anyone used fresh rue leaves? Can you possible describe the > taste? Suggest a substitute? Rue tastes green and bitter... the big part of the sensation is the smell of fresh rue, though that fades over time. There may well be asian herbs that could be used instead, but I'm not familiar enough with asian herbs to help. Contact dermititis with Rue is one of those things that a small portion of the population have. If you will be serving the rue in a cooked dish, then I would find someone who has a bush of rue (anyone who has such a bush will probably have plenty to give away-- and a helper to prepare the dish who doesn't have the contact dermatitis reaction. Then label it 'Contains rue, not recommended for people preggers or trying to get pregnant' and leave it at that. -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa jenne at fiedlerfamily.net Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 01:22:57 -0400 From: Robin Carroll-Mann Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] moretum To: Cooks within the SCA Carole Smith wrote: There's no way I would use rue for any purpose. It blisters my fingers, so it's never gotten close to my mouth. Cordelia Tsoer I grow it for its pretty foliage and flowers, and because the critters won't eat it. I tasted it once, out of curiosity. It is bitter. I could imagine trying it in a period dish, just to see how it affected the flavor, but I wouldn't cook with it if I were feeding others. -- Brighid ni Chiarain Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:44:23 -0700 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] moretum To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org While contact dermatitis from rue, as Cordelia gets, is not typical of all people, it is definitely a known problem with the plant. if the rue is cooked, however, it usually no longer causes this problem. On the other hand, if i had that kind of reaction, i'd be hesitant to eat rue. It recalls to my mind an experience of some friends of mine, back in the late 60s or early 70s: They'd heard that if one drank a tea made of poison ivy, it could make one resistant to getting contact dermatitis, the common rash, from it for the season. So the couple made tea of the leaves and drank it. It is true that Native Americans did this - using the very young shoots. My friends, however, used mature leaves. Nothing like contact dermatitis on the inside and around every orifice... -- Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) the persona formerly known as Anahita Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 09:43:30 -0500 From: "Gaylin Walli" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Question about rue.... To: "Cooks within the SCA" On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 9:36 AM, Elaine Koogler wrote: <<< OK...I understand that rue is probably not a good thing to use in cooking, that it can have some unfortunate side effects. Am I correct in this? If so, does anyone have any idea what to do about all those recipes from the Anonymous Andalusian Cookbook that call for the herb? I'm contemplating using a number of Andalusian recipes for my Middle Eastern feast in February, but worry about all of that rue! I don't want to "rue" my choices...nor for my diners to do so! ;-) Kiri >>> I recently posted a comment on this on the Apicius list and I'll repost it here for you. I wrote: Re:logical substitutions?? Others have spoken on the celery and pumpkin substitutions, but no one yet has commented on the rue issues and the reasons for the substitutions. Growing rue is ridiculously easy if you have the garden space, but a quick google search will net you information on the possibility of contact dermatitis when the plant is handled (luckily I do not have this problem at all). The reason most people don't include it in recreation recipes is not the dermatitis issue, but the possibility of Rue acting as an abortificant. There is evidence to suggest that pregnant women or women trying to get pregnant should avoid this plant completely. That having been said, I do use it in my personal cooking for recipe testing, so I can get a decent idea of the taste. My personal opinion is that the leaves of radishes works the best. They give the herbally green taste and the bitterness you're seeking. Rosemary or even celery (which people have suggested in the past) don't even come close to matching the taste of rue like radish greens do. Just remember to wash them carefully. I personally think of it as a bonus. Most people toss their radish greens without using them. This is the perfect way to use everything! Iasmin Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 11:42:32 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Question about rue.... To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Kiri wrote: <<< OK...I understand that rue is probably not a good thing to use in cooking, that it can have some unfortunate side effects. Am I correct in this? If so, does anyone have any idea what to do about all those recipes from the Anonymous Andalusian Cookbook that call for the herb? I'm contemplating using a number of Andalusian recipes for my Middle Eastern feast in February, but worry about all of that rue! I don't want to "rue" my choices...nor for my diners to do so! ;-) >>> My understanding is that the amount one would use to season a dish is unlikely to cause a miscarriage. A pregnant woman would need to ingest either an awful lot of rue herb, or rue herb brewed into a tea, or an extract or oil, for rue to function as an abortifacient. For example, the suggested dose to make an abortifacient tea is 1 to 3 tsp. rue herb per cup, and to drink one cup 3 to 4 times daily. "Boil the water first then pour the boiled water over the dried herb. Do not boil the herb in water, as this destroys the herb's properties." The source did not mention how many days one would have to continue this for the desired effect. But is sounds like one day may or may not be enough. As long as your diners do not each consume 3 to 12 tsp. per person, i suspect that using rue in one dish will not be problematic. Additionally, you could suggest that pregnant women who want to keep their babies do not eat that particular dish. In my search i found that *sage*, which we do not fear to eat, is also considered a known herbal abortifacient. And according to a paper from Sloan-Kettering, "Small quantities of safrole, which has been shown to be both a hepatotoxin and hepatocarcinogen [hepato- refers to the liver] in laboratory animals, have been found in nutmeg, anise, mace and cinnamon." So these spices, which i suspect most of us accept as safe as a flavoring, can also be potentially hazardous... if used in large quantities. I'm surprised that there is so much concern about using rue and no concern about using other herbs and spices. I can only guess that because we do not generally use rue any more, we look it up, but we don't look up the possible medicinal uses and side effects of herbs and spcies we commonly use. -- Urtatim (that's urr-tah-TEEM) the persona formerly known as Anahita Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 14:21:34 -0600 (CST) From: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Question about rue.... To: lilinah at earthlink.net, "Cooks within the SCA" <<< In my search i found that *sage*, which we do not fear to eat, is also considered a known herbal abortifacient. And according to a paper from Sloan-Kettering, "Small quantities of safrole, which has been shown to be both a hepatotoxin and hepatocarcinogen [hepato- refers to the liver] in laboratory animals, have been found in nutmeg, anise, mace and cinnamon." So these spices, which i suspect most of us accept as safe as a flavoring, can also be potentially hazardous... if used in large quantities. I'm surprised that there is so much concern about using rue and no concern about using other herbs and spices. I can only guess that because we do not generally use rue any more, we look it up, but we don't look up the possible medicinal uses and side effects of herbs and spcies we commonly use. >>> Actually, one major issue is that oil of rue is in fact a known and documented 19th century abortifacent that appears to have worked, where oil of sage, though considered dangerous due to high levels of thujone, doesn't have the documented history as an abortifacent. (Also, some period doctors considered sage to be beneficial to maintaining a pregnancy.) -- -- Jenne Heise / Jadwiga Zajaczkowa Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 13:44:08 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Question about rue.... To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Jadwiga wrote: Actually, one major issue is that oil of rue is in fact a known and documented 19th century abortifacent that appears to have worked, where oil of sage, though considered dangerous due to high levels of thujone, doesn't have the documented history as an abortifacent. (Also, some period doctors considered sage to be beneficial to maintaining a pregnancy.) >>> I can only report that the article said that sage was a "known abortifacient". I don't know the necessary dose. Also, i think it likely that SCA cooks are not planning to use oil of rue in their dishes, only a small amount of rue herb. As far as i can tell, a pregnant woman would have to ingest oil of rue, which is highly concentrated, or a very large dose of rue leaves or tea brewed from leaves, a far greater quantity than would be used in one or two dishes. I know people involved in Roman re-creation, not in the SCA, who use rue in their Apician dishes. In fact, one sent me some dried rue so i could taste it (i live in an urban apartment with no deck or balcony to grow bushy plants). They report no problems *so far*. Of course, i am not a doctor, nor do i play one in the SCA. But i have a strong feeling based on my research and personal experience that there is overreaction to the occasional use of rue. I would never recommend using it in every dish in a feast. In that case there might be the possibility of reaching a potentially dangerous dose for pregnant women. But given rue's strong bitter flavor, and the fact that outside of Roman cuisine it is only infrequently used, for example, in a rather limited number of Arabic-language recipes, i would expect that its rare use would not pose a genuine health hazard, unless someone was very sensitive, just as some people are very sensitive to cloves or cumin. I can understand wanting to use caution in the SCA. But as far as i can tell, we are not carefully researching most of the other ingredients we use, and some also are potential health risks when used *in large quantities*, which we are not using, just as we would not use large quantities of rue. As a side note, contact dermatitis is not universal, although i'm not sure what percentage of the population responds that way (more do not than do), and comes from handling the fresh leaves. Once cooked, rue no longer has that effect. -- Urtatim (that's urr-tah-TEEM) the persona formerly known as Anahita Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:08:06 -0500 From: Gretchen Beck Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 33, Issue 55 To: Cooks within the SCA --On Friday, January 23, 2009 3:27 PM -0500 Gaylin Walli wrote: <<< Rosemary or even celery (which people have suggested in the past) don't even come close to matching the taste of rue like radish greens do. Just remember to wash them carefully. I personally think of it as a bonus. Most people toss their radish greens without using them. This is the perfect way to use everything! >>> Radish greens -- spicy and yummy. As a teen, my mom used to cook these just like mustard greens (right out of the garden). Make sure to chop very fine, though, as these suckers are tough. toodles, margaret Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 10:48:48 -0800 From: "Laureen Hart" Subject: [Sca-cooks] Rue To: I think that rue is exceptionally nasty and bitter (and without redeeming culinary value, yuk). I don't think the amount you put in a recipe poses a health hazard to anyone, but better safe than sorry can't hurt. I agree that celery or rosemary aren't bitter enough. The celery family can be bitter but they add that particularly celery note. I don't think Radish leaves are either. I think of them as being more peppery, not bitter. Feverfew is closer to the bitter nature of rue, but not quite as nasty. Randell Raye Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 11:12:29 -0800 From: David Walddon Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Rue To: Cooks within the SCA I think the radish leaf idea is interesting. I do find rue to be bitter and somewhat sour but NOT nasty. Then of course my two favorite flavor components are bitter and sour! When we were playing with Apicius the rue issue was huge, but what other cuisines call for it in any quantity? Eduardo Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 15:39:28 -0500 (EST) From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Rue To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Eduardo wrote: <<< I think the radish leaf idea is interesting. >>> I've been eating it sauteed in butter since i lived in Southern France in 1973. I like the taste. But i also like young dandelion leaves (talk about bitter :-) <<< I do find rue to be bitter and somewhat sour but NOT nasty. Then of course my two favorite flavor components are bitter and sour! When we were playing with Apicius the rue issue was huge, but what other cuisines call for it in any quantity? >>> Rue appears in 21 per cent of savory recipes in the 13th century so-called Anonymous Andalusian cookbook: http://home.earthlink.net/~al-tabbakhah/Misc_ME_Food/SpiceboxAndalusi.html I don't know how often rue actually appears in "Fadalat al-Jiwan fi Tayyibat al-t'am wa'l-alwan" (Highlights of the table, on dishes and stews), by Abu'l-Hasan Ali ibn Muhammad ibn Abi'l-Qasim ibn Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr ibn al-Andalusi Razin al-Tujibi from Murcia between 1228 and 1243. His is sometimes shortened "al-Razin" or "al-Tujibi" (written in Spanish as al-Tugibi, but pronounced the same as in English). His book has not yet been translated in its entirety into English, although we've translated a few from Spanish of Fernando de la Granja Santamaria to English on this list - always problematic to translate without referring to the original. There is a somewhat larger number of recipes from that work in "Medieval Cuisine of the Islamic World" by Lilia Zaouali. She includes some of the recipes that were translated by Granja Santamaria and there are some distinct differences from Suey's translations. Rue does not appear in al-Baghdadi's 13th century cookbook, however: http://home.earthlink.net/~al-tabbakhah/Misc_ME_Food/SpiceboxBaghdadi.html It may be that rue is a more "Mediterranean" herb, or perhaps its use is a Roman holdover. I should also look through my Medieval Muslim pharmacopoeia (al-Kindi, al-Samarqandi, etc.) and see if rue appears. And i have not yet done a seasoning count of the massive amount of 9th and 10th century recipes in Ibn Sayyur al-Warraq's compendium. I really need to start working on that, too. -- Urtatim (that's urr-tah-TEEM) the persona formerly known as Anahita Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:48:40 -0800 From: David Walddon Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Rue To: lilinah at earthlink.net, Cooks within the SCA It totally disappears in Martino. I don't think I have the Octavo disk handy or would do a search. A while back there was some discussion on translation issues of RUE from the Latin. Does anyone remember this thread? 21% is a fairly significant ingredient. Eduardo Edited by Mark S. Harris rue-msg Page 17 of 17